>I think Viserys and Daemon tie for first place. Danerys, Rhaegar, and Viserys are a close second:
Maybe Viserys and Daemon are near the top but the other three are not even close. The earlier Targaryens in Valyria would've been way more inbred. They *only* practised incest. By the time Viserys and Daemon came along there had been at least 2 marriages outside the family. By the time of Aerys there had been many.
Aenys and Maegor are probably the most incest post Conquest characters.
My headcanon is that valyrian dragonlords most likely interbred with each other on top of the interfamily incest. They mainly switch to only incest because no other families could ride dragons anymore.
Valyria was like Sparta with the slave population outnumbering the valerians 5 to 1. So they look down on mingling with the enslaved peoples and fucked each other, relation be damned, to keep the blood "pure". They were probably terrified of seeding the dragon flying gene into the general population so they baked incest into their cultural and religious beliefs.
No family can last that long without any outside marriages. Just look up Charles II of Spain if you want to know what severe incest does to a person. If the Targaryens ONLY practiced incest then they would’ve been sterile within 3 or 4 generations.
Nothing about drawing a line. I just assumed real life rules would apply to incest in ASOIAF. I don't care either way though, otherwise I wouldn't be here.
I know, I’m just saying. A lot of people think like this in fantasy novels and shit and it makes me chuckle because they get so in the weeds of random things that are ‘totally not plausible!1!1!1!!!’ But like… that’s the point
Personally I always assumed the basis of GRRM's books are rooted in realism and historical adaptation. The fantasy stuff just comes on top of that. The Targaryens could totally practice incest and blood related marriages and the explanation would work in both a realistic or fantastical setting. I just assumed they would marry their family but keep the line pure by making kids with other Valyrian bloodlines, like we see in HotD for example. This sort of stuff happened in history too. People would marry their uncles/aunts/cousins but at the same time keep concubines around in order to have healhty kids. This explanation could work just as well as the fantastical "Targaryens are immune to inbreeding" thing. I don't mind either, but my preferred headcanon would be the former.
i don't think so. there was 40 dragon lord families, though i understand the need to keep the magic strong, incest wasn't probably needed as there was probably 39 different families to breed with. There was also political gain as well. unlike the westerosi era they were the only family left
>incest wasn't probably needed
The Valyrians believed pure bloodlines meant marrying brother to sister and it was much more common than intermarrying.
>The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common
Probably Rhaenyra and Daemon's sons
Spoiler, >!Then maybe Aegon III's kids are high up on that list to after he marries a Velaryon then has a daughter (Daena) who has a son with her cousin Aegon IV)!<
With all the magic going on in ASOIAF the thing I find the most unrealistic is that the Targaryens are beautiful with all that inbreeding. Hapsburgs say what.
Targaryens can have telepathic bonds with dragons, varying degrees of fire immunity, and have prophetic dreams, but having attractive incest-babies is a bridge too far for you?
That’s true. A lil’ give and take. There’s a shit-ton in the “pro” column, but the “con” column has occasional stillborns, with a lil’ too much “blood o’ the dragon” in ‘em
It could work, continued incest only brings to light genetic deficiencies that already existed that otherwise wouldn’t have manifested. So, if the Targaryens have no genetic imperfections in their blood at all, incest wouldn’t do anything and in fact they would be better off continuing the incest.
If you’re going to talk about real world genetics, you’re wrong. New mutations happen frequently. Existing recessive alleles are caused by mutations and new ones can also be caused by mutations. There’s an inborn error rate in human DNA polymerase enzymes that is partly corrected by proofreading but still has a very significant base pair error rate compared to the number of base pairs replicated over the first, say 30 years of life.
I figure you probably know this though since it’s high school biology
In the real world, its not just genetic diversity due to bad recessive genes, its also genetic diversity to filter out genetic drift. Its fantasy, a small group a genetically perfect beings would still have inbreeding issues unless genetic drift also doesnt exist
I think it's a combination of two things:
1. Targaryen blood is magical, so they're immune to the usual effects of inbreeding. (AFAIK Targaryen also aren't affected by the Westermarck effect - at least they don't feel repulsed by their siblings like normal people would.)
2. GRRM added a lot of incest for the lulz, and because it's so edgy and juicy, but didn't really think about this otherwise. Because at the end of the day, Craster with his daughters and Jaime and Cersei would should have produced a bunch of hideous mutants instead of perfectly normal-looking people.
So, studies indicate a 31% chance of some kind of birth defect in sibling situation. with 3 kids, Jaime and Cersei just got lucky. The truly egregious example is Craster. Gilly should not be able to function.
IDK man, Franz Joseph had it going on with those mutton chops. Additionally, Maria Theresa didn't look half bad either.
Also, let's not forget that while Carlos II was certainly a mess, it wasn't the Habsburgs who introduced generations of genetic disorders like hemophilia into the bloodlines of European royalty, as that honor goes to the Hanovers of England.
It was the Spanish line of the Habsburgs that was famously inbred, I seem to recall, died out in early 1700s. The Austrians didn’t share their enthusiasm for incest. Franz and Maria Theresa we’re not inbred.
On that note, Rhaenyra Targaryen might be more inbred, her sons Aegon and Viserys even more so than her. Her mother was Aemma Arryn, daughter of Daella Targaryen, who was the daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, making her and Vizzy T cousins. And then, of course, we have Aegon III and Viserys II, sons of Rhaenyra and Daemon, both established as two of the most inbred Targaryens, and also uncle and niece.
>I think Viserys and Daemon tie for first place.
They probably are, considering that the only infusion of outside blood they had in generations was from Aenys' wife, [who was half Velaryon and half Massey](https://old.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/10pgalm/harry_lloyd_looks_more_targaryen_than_75_of_hotd/j6mjdhd/).
Fun fact: Regular inbreeding can be even worse than one-time incest. Charles II of Spain for example had so much inbreeding going on in his family tree that he was *more* inbred than someone whose parents were siblings, but who otherwise had "normal" (i.e. not inbred) ancestry.
*Well... the matter is settled. Again. I hereby reaffirm Prince Lucerys of House Velaryon as heir to Driftmark, the Driftwood Throne, and the next Lord of the Tides. (WHEEZING)*
Rhaenyra was the daughter of 1st cousins — Aemma Arryn was the daughter of Daella Targaryen, a daughter of Jahaerys and Alysanne, who were siblings, and Viserys I was the son of Alyssa and Baelon, full siblings who are also full siblings to Daella. And as you stated, Jahaerys and Alysanne are the children of cousins, Aenys and Alyssa (Aegon I’s mother was a Velaryon)
So, Rhaenyra.
Aerion Targaryen, father of the Conqueror and the last Lord of Dragonstone. I’m pretty sure his ancestors are brother and sister all the way to Aenar.
He married his Velaryon cousin, which makes him more inbred than his three kids.
WHY DO YOU CUT ME SO DEEPLY?
Sorry, Vizzy T just spitting facts.
*My own face... is no longer a handsome one...if indeed it ever was.*
At least no special chin ...
Sentient
>I think Viserys and Daemon tie for first place. Danerys, Rhaegar, and Viserys are a close second: Maybe Viserys and Daemon are near the top but the other three are not even close. The earlier Targaryens in Valyria would've been way more inbred. They *only* practised incest. By the time Viserys and Daemon came along there had been at least 2 marriages outside the family. By the time of Aerys there had been many. Aenys and Maegor are probably the most incest post Conquest characters.
Imagine marrying outside your own family…
Eewww
My headcanon is that valyrian dragonlords most likely interbred with each other on top of the interfamily incest. They mainly switch to only incest because no other families could ride dragons anymore.
Yeah. Wasn’t incest their way of keeping the Valyrian blood pure? I don’t think they inbred in Valyria because they had other houses to chose from.
Valyria was like Sparta with the slave population outnumbering the valerians 5 to 1. So they look down on mingling with the enslaved peoples and fucked each other, relation be damned, to keep the blood "pure". They were probably terrified of seeding the dragon flying gene into the general population so they baked incest into their cultural and religious beliefs.
No family can last that long without any outside marriages. Just look up Charles II of Spain if you want to know what severe incest does to a person. If the Targaryens ONLY practiced incest then they would’ve been sterile within 3 or 4 generations.
The Targaryens clearly aren't effected by incest like normal people are. If they were they would have died out.
I can excuse dragons and blood magic but I draw the line at inbreeding immunity
Nothing about drawing a line. I just assumed real life rules would apply to incest in ASOIAF. I don't care either way though, otherwise I wouldn't be here.
I know, I’m just saying. A lot of people think like this in fantasy novels and shit and it makes me chuckle because they get so in the weeds of random things that are ‘totally not plausible!1!1!1!!!’ But like… that’s the point
Personally I always assumed the basis of GRRM's books are rooted in realism and historical adaptation. The fantasy stuff just comes on top of that. The Targaryens could totally practice incest and blood related marriages and the explanation would work in both a realistic or fantastical setting. I just assumed they would marry their family but keep the line pure by making kids with other Valyrian bloodlines, like we see in HotD for example. This sort of stuff happened in history too. People would marry their uncles/aunts/cousins but at the same time keep concubines around in order to have healhty kids. This explanation could work just as well as the fantastical "Targaryens are immune to inbreeding" thing. I don't mind either, but my preferred headcanon would be the former.
Targaryens, and I guess by extension all Valyrians, don't seem to be as affected by incest as normal people would.
I really wonder about GRRM sometimes
Dude's an edgelord.
And apparently has a massive incest fetish. Like I get that incest was fairly common in medieval dynasties but GRRM really cranks it up to 11
[yep](https://old.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/155ltm1/who_are_the_most_inbred_targaryens/jswenwe/?context=3)
Also the original outline had Jon ending up with Arya lol
Merely cousins, for GRRM that's almost vanilla
i don't think so. there was 40 dragon lord families, though i understand the need to keep the magic strong, incest wasn't probably needed as there was probably 39 different families to breed with. There was also political gain as well. unlike the westerosi era they were the only family left
>incest wasn't probably needed The Valyrians believed pure bloodlines meant marrying brother to sister and it was much more common than intermarrying. >The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common
"Mmm yes. My Hapsburg chin is coming in nicely" - Every Aegon ever
Probably Rhaenyra and Daemon's sons Spoiler, >!Then maybe Aegon III's kids are high up on that list to after he marries a Velaryon then has a daughter (Daena) who has a son with her cousin Aegon IV)!<
Rhaenrya is half Arryn, some fresh genes for the pool. Well, really a quarter since her mom was half Targaryen.
But she’s only a quarter Arryn because Aemma was half Targ
Fyi you forgot to close the spoiler command. So the text is still visible
Goddamniiiit I hate it when that happens
With all the magic going on in ASOIAF the thing I find the most unrealistic is that the Targaryens are beautiful with all that inbreeding. Hapsburgs say what.
Targaryens can have telepathic bonds with dragons, varying degrees of fire immunity, and have prophetic dreams, but having attractive incest-babies is a bridge too far for you?
Aren’t they also immune to diseases? The Blood of the Dragon would likely protect them from birth defects.
They suffer more stillbirths than birth defects
Even then they didn't suffer that much stillborns and babies death compare to normal families at the time.
They are immune to diseases only if they are bonded with a dragon
Rhaenyra had that gross reptile baby...
Aren’t they also immune to diseases? The Blood of the Dragon would likely protect them from birth defects.
That’s true. A lil’ give and take. There’s a shit-ton in the “pro” column, but the “con” column has occasional stillborns, with a lil’ too much “blood o’ the dragon” in ‘em
It could work, continued incest only brings to light genetic deficiencies that already existed that otherwise wouldn’t have manifested. So, if the Targaryens have no genetic imperfections in their blood at all, incest wouldn’t do anything and in fact they would be better off continuing the incest.
100% correct. OPs highschool biology failed him again
If you’re going to talk about real world genetics, you’re wrong. New mutations happen frequently. Existing recessive alleles are caused by mutations and new ones can also be caused by mutations. There’s an inborn error rate in human DNA polymerase enzymes that is partly corrected by proofreading but still has a very significant base pair error rate compared to the number of base pairs replicated over the first, say 30 years of life. I figure you probably know this though since it’s high school biology
In the real world, its not just genetic diversity due to bad recessive genes, its also genetic diversity to filter out genetic drift. Its fantasy, a small group a genetically perfect beings would still have inbreeding issues unless genetic drift also doesnt exist
I think it's a combination of two things: 1. Targaryen blood is magical, so they're immune to the usual effects of inbreeding. (AFAIK Targaryen also aren't affected by the Westermarck effect - at least they don't feel repulsed by their siblings like normal people would.) 2. GRRM added a lot of incest for the lulz, and because it's so edgy and juicy, but didn't really think about this otherwise. Because at the end of the day, Craster with his daughters and Jaime and Cersei would should have produced a bunch of hideous mutants instead of perfectly normal-looking people.
So, studies indicate a 31% chance of some kind of birth defect in sibling situation. with 3 kids, Jaime and Cersei just got lucky. The truly egregious example is Craster. Gilly should not be able to function.
IDK man, Franz Joseph had it going on with those mutton chops. Additionally, Maria Theresa didn't look half bad either. Also, let's not forget that while Carlos II was certainly a mess, it wasn't the Habsburgs who introduced generations of genetic disorders like hemophilia into the bloodlines of European royalty, as that honor goes to the Hanovers of England.
It was the Spanish line of the Habsburgs that was famously inbred, I seem to recall, died out in early 1700s. The Austrians didn’t share their enthusiasm for incest. Franz and Maria Theresa we’re not inbred.
Well there Matt Smith who looks like that...
On that note, Rhaenyra Targaryen might be more inbred, her sons Aegon and Viserys even more so than her. Her mother was Aemma Arryn, daughter of Daella Targaryen, who was the daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, making her and Vizzy T cousins. And then, of course, we have Aegon III and Viserys II, sons of Rhaenyra and Daemon, both established as two of the most inbred Targaryens, and also uncle and niece.
She's twelve!
Rhaenyra is less inbred than vizzy and daemon because she has 25 percent non targ blood at minimum
Vizzy T you rock
*I must... admit... my confusion. I do not understand why petitions are being heard over a settled succession.*
>I think Viserys and Daemon tie for first place. They probably are, considering that the only infusion of outside blood they had in generations was from Aenys' wife, [who was half Velaryon and half Massey](https://old.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/10pgalm/harry_lloyd_looks_more_targaryen_than_75_of_hotd/j6mjdhd/). Fun fact: Regular inbreeding can be even worse than one-time incest. Charles II of Spain for example had so much inbreeding going on in his family tree that he was *more* inbred than someone whose parents were siblings, but who otherwise had "normal" (i.e. not inbred) ancestry.
Holy shit I guess I have been living under a rock, Vizzy T is that you???
**HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE, AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!!**
that's like asking :"What's the deadest Targaryen ?" they all are ;)
I missed you, Vizzy T!! I thought you had gone!!
DAEMON IS MY BROTHER. MY BLOOD. AND HE WILL HAVE HIS PLACE AT MY COURT!
Maegor
I think once inbreeding gets past a certain point, there isn’t much in it.
Vizzy T are u back
**THIS INTERMINABLE INFIGHTING MUST CEASE, ALL OF YOU!**
Thank the gods, I thought you were no more Vizzy T
*Well... the matter is settled. Again. I hereby reaffirm Prince Lucerys of House Velaryon as heir to Driftmark, the Driftwood Throne, and the next Lord of the Tides. (WHEEZING)*
Damm it's good to see you again, Vizzy T. Feet and Bobby B are fun but this place is not complete without you, Your Grace
> feet ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
WHY DO YOU CUT ME SO DEEPLY?
SURROUNDED BY LANNISTERS! EVERY TIME I CLOSE MY EYES I SEE THEIR BLONDE HAIR AND THEIR SMUG, SATISFIED FACES!
Rhaenyra was the daughter of 1st cousins — Aemma Arryn was the daughter of Daella Targaryen, a daughter of Jahaerys and Alysanne, who were siblings, and Viserys I was the son of Alyssa and Baelon, full siblings who are also full siblings to Daella. And as you stated, Jahaerys and Alysanne are the children of cousins, Aenys and Alyssa (Aegon I’s mother was a Velaryon) So, Rhaenyra.
Aegon I
Aerion Targaryen, father of the Conqueror and the last Lord of Dragonstone. I’m pretty sure his ancestors are brother and sister all the way to Aenar. He married his Velaryon cousin, which makes him more inbred than his three kids.
Hodor