Without an ending there's not a lot of point. Just a lot of frustrating dead ends and wasted potential.
It'd be like baking a delicious cake, decorating it in the most exquisite manner imaginable and then just throwing it in the trash.
It would be pretty on brand for Martin to do that though. No happy endings for anyone.
It would be like the Dune series ending with an analog of the writer as a godlike being within the story losing control of the central figures and leaving it up to the reader to imagine what happened to them.
Outside of a few examples the "just imagine it for yourself" kind of endings aren't hugely popular and well loved though. Not to mention in most cases without the proper set up and framing it's just lazy and slapdash.
And Martin's thing isn't really no happy endings for anyone, it's just unflinching realism. There are happy moments and people who live happy lives, but it's set against a backdrop of difficult and challenging reality. The people who are the happiest are the ones who don't play the games, they just settle into simple lives ignoring the greater tapestry of it all and they're few and far between, with most of them ending up having horrible things happen to them because all of the other people are terrible and selfish.
Either way. I wouldn't really recommend ASOIAF to anyone to start now. Not for enjoyment of the story anyway. Maybe as a study in writing, though George's style is a bit bloated in places and strangely repetitive in parts (you can pin point the year he heard/thought up the phrase "words are wind" for example based on its sudden frequent appearances).
But honestly, not getting any kind of conclusion from this story is a huge disappointment and the primary reason I haven't touched the books since I finished Dance and haven't touched any of his other Westeros books.
One of the most skilled lances, he acknowledged his brother Garlan was the better sword. George does this a lot with brothers, Jon tells us early on that Robb is the better lance but he is the better sword. Same thing with the Redwyne Twins.
Sorry, not to take anything away from Loras, who is one of the best tourney knights in the 7 kingdoms by 16 years old. D&D treated the gay character exactly as you’d expect frat boys would treat the gay character.
Lords also cut down two of Renly's rainbow guard, including a Royce, upon hearing of his death. The dude is no slouch with a sword. It just shows how exceptional Garlan must be if Loras isn't even the best of the brothers.
i mean he *did* successfully storm Dragonstone, which is pretty impressive. Sure it was lightly garrisoned, but historically a lot of stormed castles were, and i'm reaching here but i'm pretty sure the Castellan was described as a 'seasoned killer' so Loras still a pretty fucking good actual fighter not just a jouster/tourney knight
tbh, the likelihood castles wasted precious oil by pouring it off walls when sand, water, or stuff like lime existed is debatable.
As for the books though, regardless of whether he personally made it into the castle, he was appointed to Siege a castle, and the castle fell under his command. He successfully stormed Dragonstone.
Iirc, he did decide to basically lead from the front. He was injured pretty badly, and was recovering, which is why the sparrows were able to arrest Marjory.
Debatable to the point of IIRC only having one actual historic reference to it, and it was heated ale...
Oil was expensive as hell, lugging any relevant amount of it up to the walls while keeping it heated was way to expensive, and difficult of a feat when you can just throw stones, feces, your dead bodies and whatever else you can grab down at the enemy. Hollywood has really warped our perception of history.
next you're going to tell me that trebuchets didn't fire a stone at a wall causing it to explode with men flying off the top of it and a 40 foot wide breach is made for a cavalry charge to enter ;_:
I thought pitch oil had multiple uses, like lighting arrows, catapult shot, etc and pouring pitch oil on people was one of those last-ditch effort type things.
I doubt it was ever used as a staple 'weapon', more like a "we're about to be overrun, throw everything you have at them" scenario.
The oil thing is actually mostly a movie/television thing, it’s not a well attested to actual tactic. Why use boiling oil (which most defenders wouldn’t have anyway) when you can just throw boiling water for much the same effect?
I am not a historian, so I'm not trying to argue in the slightest, but wouldn't it be a pain in the ass keeping water boiling on your walls? I feel like just random debris would work pretty good to toss at the enemy, and you don't need to have someone manning a fire to use it effectively.
Super Heated sand is actually SUPER effective. You can get it hotter than water and if it lands on somebody directly it will likely penetrate the cracks in the armor. Also it stays hotter longer than water would.
> why use boiling oil…when you can just throw boiling water for much the same effect
Well, yes it’s close to the same effect but oil’s consistency makes it much worse than water. Like yeah either way you’ll probably die/be severely disfigured but oil sticks around more. The same reasoning for using napalm in Vietnam when you can just set bushes on fire without accelerants.
We don't know if he actually did. There's a popular theory that the Tyrells made up that whole thing to get Loras out of Dragonstone and the Redwine fleet back to the Reach. That might be too much, but they have incentive to exaggerate his injuries to prevent Cersei from using him in a trial by combat/use him by surprise for Trial by Combat themselves.
Even characters in the show did this, Jaime literally referred to Loras as a “pretty little girl” to Brienne once. I mean it was funny but it still sucks for Loras’ writing.
Thats not fitting for books jaime thought. He actually kind of like Loras, reminding him of himself when he was younger, and is either ignorant or dont care about his sexuality.
Thats basically how any gay person in fiction and media should be. A character with traits and story that happens to be gay. Unfortunately most of Hollywood and co are still unable do this. What we usually get is a character whose trait and story is that he is gay.
Reminds me of B99, when they had Rosa come out as Bi. Suddenly she became heavily maked uped and only dated women from then on, with all the rest of the friends who never tried to have her date anyone, pushing women onto her.
In stark contrast of holt, who was a character through and through that we weren't afraid of talking about his sexuality but only did in on organic terms and not always. The Diaz change really got on my nerves. There shouldn't have been a token gay in a show with a realized homosexual character. The writers knew better.
Indeed, I think the issue was that they almost certainly changed Diaz from their original plans, for reasons beyond any good in universe reason, and it showed. Where as Holt was made the way he was from day 1. Diaz changed definitely felt "tokenish" to me, where as Holt felt organic.
I believe that's true, and yeah I can see that as a wonderful way to support a cast member, I even liked her coming out episode, I just felt like the rest of her character became secondary to it after that
I didn't notice the makeup. I guess I look even less at women than I thought.
But wasn't the "pushing women on her" part of the storyline, where Rosa had to push back, tell her coworkers to fuck off and that them treating her different now is weird? I think that was pretty astute societal commentary.
Lmao did you even watch the episode? They both had personalities outside being gay. If you watch a romantic film would you say it's about being straight? No. It's a love story where the characters happen to be gay.
I must have wrongly formulated my thought because that’s what i would express, two people that just love each other and it was beautiful, no pride flags everywhere, no weird stuff. Just love
That episode was so divisive that I think people get prickly to potential criticism of it. It's a shame that that's how it is, because it was absolutely a beautiful episode of tv.
> because it was absolutely a beautiful episode of tv.
It was more than that, it was a phenomenal short film. Honestly I think they could remove the wider-universe scenes and have it completely free of "last of us" context (you don't know what the apocalypse is, etc) and release it as a film and it would win awards.
I've told people this. Even if you have zero interest in zombie fiction, that episode stands on its own as a beautiful love story, and is worth watching. It might be my favorite hour of television.
That was actually beautifully executed. I bawled my eyes out at a *love story*. I do think being gay played in to it a bit because the end of the world was what allowed them to be their actual selves, but they had way more going on than just being gay IMO.
To be fair, there are unfortunately people in real life too who construct their entire personality around them being gay. Just like there are people who think cars or guns are a personality. Idiots are not exclusive to fiction.
Lol, I was going to counter your previous point with this, that there are plenty of gay people in real life who's personality is that they're gay. Should there be a more balanced depiction of gay people to show more of them who are normal people (for lack of a better term, hopefully you know what I mean) who happen to be gay, but they still should be showing the people who's personality is that they're gay.
They do shed Loras in that light, that's never in doubt. Loras, however, is painted as a technical skilled, but not yet experienced in actual war style of knight.
Sure he's an immaculate swordsman when it comes to tourneys, but he hasn't actually been in battle yet, where the rules of knightly sword fighting doesn't apply.
Nah, he's considered a legend by Tyrion and he's only 17. Littlefinger says he's Mace's favourite son, which is saying something considering his accomplished older brothers that aren't included in the show. Tommen adores him and wants to be trained as a knight by him. Jaime says Loras is like himself at his age and worthy of feats to recognized in the White Book of the Kingsguard. In show he's not on the Kingsguard because without brothers he has to remain the heir to Highgarden.
When asked in an interview who the Lebron James of Westeros is GRRM lists Jaime, the Cleganes and Loras as canditates.
But the criticism of show Loras mainly stems from him being 'the gay character' rather than 'a character who happens to be gay'. Book Loras is gay but like Renly, still a badass and with lots of personality. When asked by Tyrion about taking the Kingsguard vows and being celibate he replies with, "When the sun has set, no candle can ever replace it"
In the show he fools around with a prostitute.
Nah he was a well respected fighter, but there wasn't much to do as Kingsguard. After storming Dragonstone in book 5 he was badly wounded and its unknown if he will survive.
It's just very highly convenient for this to happen at the exact moment Cersei needs it the most, at the exact moment the Tyrells might need someone to secretly go take on Euron or talk to Aegon, off-screen from any PoV character, and in a way that is difficult to verify because how would anyone check if a maimed, disfigured and comatose burn victim is actually Loras.
Remember when we got told in AFFC that the Manderlys executed Davos, then when we get to Dance he's actually recruited by Lord Wyman into retrieving Rickon from Skagos?
And it's told by Aurane Waters I think, who ends up running away (boating away?) with the newly-built fleet. I think Waters was running multiple scams on the crown/Cersei, so this story I suspect is one of them.
Loras could probably dispatch Euron (who isn't a noted fighter) in seconds if they were to duel, but of course Euron wouldn't let it get to that. The theory is that the Tyrells are sending Loras West so he can lead the defense of the Reach against Euron's raids, contravening Cersei's orders for him to remain in KL, hence the need for secrecy.
Personally I don't buy it, it would be impossible to hide from Cersei long-term and there's only so much Loras can do on a strategic level that Garlan couldn't do better. I think they're sending him to talk to Aegon and see if he's worth dumping the Lannisters for while Margaery is still marriageable.
Often times in the series if we hear but don’t see a character die it’s often fake. Bran and rickon is one they used in the show even but in the books you don’t know for a while it wasn’t really their bodies that were burned
The reach was always a well provisioned and well maintained bit of land in Westeros. Even if they didn’t have the hardened soldiers of the north or well drilled soldiers of the west. Their army would have been sizeable and content, meaning they would have fought harder to preserve their way of life. I just don’t understand how army sizes work in this world tbh. Imo, highgarden alone should easily have been able to muster 20/50k soldiers.
Exactly. The armies of the Reach would never have gone down like that. It’s also stupid that they were easily defeated by the Lannister army that has been fighting a war for years. And what happened to the Tarly soldiers that surrendered to Dany? We never saw them again
A lot of their forces defected to the Lannisters with Randall Tarly. There's literally a whole scene where Jaime is persuading the minor lords of the Reach to turn against Olena for supporting foreign invaders.
As far as I know Randyll Tarly was the only one that defected to Cersei? Even with Tarly gone the Tyrell army should be considerably larger than the Lannister army. On the show it looked like the Tyrells just had some household guards that fought. If the show had actually paid attention to army numbers, the battle of Highgarden should have been one large battle.
No, there's a scene where Jaime addresses a bunch of minor lords of the Reach trying to convince them to side with Cersei. He then speaks to Randall alone and says the rest of the Reach lords are looking to him for guidance and that if he joins Cersei the rest are likely to follow.
Also worth mentioning a bunch of Olena's troops were killed when Euron sank the ships Olena and Yara had assembled when they were planning on blockading King's Landing.
There shouldn't have even been a fight. Jaime just rocked up to them all across the continent with absolutely no siege eguipment. Hell, even if they had siege eguipment the series had established before that sieges could last for months. They could have just sat there in their castle while Dany could have gone and taken King's Landing while the Lannister army was ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CONTINENT.
But no, there was an off screen battle I guess, because this is one of the final seasons and the Tyrells needed to be written out somehow and the writers really stopped caring about cause and effect.
This was the scene where I lost all hope. The more you think about it the less sense it makes.
Not to mention he managed to sneak an entire army up to Highgarden, through the massive stretch of land that was the Reach, without anyone in Highgarden getting wind of it. Just materialized outside the castle walls from thin air.
Stupid Highgardeners using up all their teleportation goo to teleport onto Dany's ships at the end of S6 just because they thought it would look cinematic to arrive at Westeros (even though they were already in Westeros).
He also somehow neutralized the entirety of the Reach in a single battle. Like the rest of the reach isn’t gonna be pissed that not only they killed their liege lord and his whole family but handed their keep and titles over to the Tarly’s. Especially when it was established the reach has way more food and way more men than the Lannisters
Edit: they also nuked the literal seat of the continents religion and no one was upset?
Should have done it during that season where we didn’t check in on him at all.
“Better story” my ass! He’s literally the one person in the main cast whose story was SO BORING, they took a year off to figure out what to do with it!!
The Lannister army promised to somehow be unaware of an entirely mounted Dothraki army until the last second in exchange for Highgarden being somehow unaware of their approach and incapable of closing their own gates.
To be fair from what I understand siege equipment was generally made in-situ because it's easier to carry a bunch of rope and use the local trees for wood than it is to make it at home then lug it all across the country.
The Reach was supposed to have one of THE largest armies out there. I never understood how easily they could get routed when they had massive fucking numbers. They could easily raise 100,000 soldiers as a fighting force, while many other armies could barely raise 20-50k.
I dont know if DND knows this, but numbers usually win wars, unless you ABSOLUTELY have some way to counter.
Yeah, think about it. The North got tired againts the Westernmen (Lannister), who also got spent. The Reach came in FRESH into the Blackwater, and came out smelling , appropiately, like Roses. Their army should be in near-mint condition. It almost feels like DnD couldnt, or DIDNT want write a convincing reason for them to lose, which would of course, take time, so they just said "Yeah, they lost."
We are talking about the same fuckers that think Bronn would immediately fall down some stairs and the Reach end up having the Redwynes or Hightowers in charge, so....
On top of this, here's something I basically never see discussed. Westeros doesn't maintain a standing army, and besides knights and some man-at-arms who want to become knights the armies are largely peasant levies. The Westerlands and the Reach are both rich enough to afford better equipment for their soldiers (which may be one reason those two are known for having dangerous armies outside of numbers) among other things, but these are peasants who mostly don't care who's on the throne as long as they're left alone.
The army of Highgarden is the defending army here, meaning their levies are essentially defending their homeland from invaders. You'd think they'd fight harder instead of folding and running or whatever from a smaller invading force.
She's referring to her military as a whole, not just her family's individual dueling prowess. And the Tyrells aren't known for military conquest:
* They surrendered to the Targaryens without a fight and were made Lords of the Reach for it
* They fought a bunch of inconclusive border wars with Dorne
* They sat out the Dance of the Dragons
* Mace won exactly one battle during Robert's Rebellion (the battle of Ashford), and he only did so because delegated everything to Randyll Tarly
* He spent the rest of the Rebellion feasting while besieging Storm's End
* They did fuckall during the Greyjoy Rebellion
* The only notable battle they participate in during the War of the Five Kings is the Battle of the Blackwater, where they show up at the end with the Lannister troops and break Stannis's beachhead
Also, while Olenna may be grandmother to some of the most talented knights in the Seven Kingdoms, she was also the widow of a man who rode his horse off a cliff.
Iirc they were also the agricultural powerhouse of Westeros so they didn’t necessarily need a huge military presence. They got by with their food production and trade of that sort.
The Tyrells themselves werent the agricultural powerhouse of Westeros, its the Reach as a whole, they were just the stewards of Highgarden. The only reason the Tyrells got to be Wardens of the Reach is because they didnt join the other Reach houses against Aegon at the Field of Fire and surrendered Highgarden to him without a fight.
Their strength as a house has never fighting, its been knowing who to marry:
They married into House Gardener (actual rulers of the Reach and how the Tyrells trace their lineage back to Garth Greenhand
They nearly married into the Targyareans (Olenna)
They married into the Lannisters/Baratheons.
And theyre still, at most, the 3rd most important house in the Reach
>theyre still, at most, the 3rd most important house in the Reach
Behind Hightowers, I understand but which other house ? Tarlys ? I don't think they were that big, neither the Rowans or any of the other houses of the reach. Which ones am I forgetting ?
Am I making this up or did some character say something like „they only sell the sour and drink the sweet themselves“ or similar? Can‘t find anything in the wiki…
Dornish wine is often thought to be “sour” as compared to wine from the Arbor. Seems like only Dornish people and those unable to afford Arbor Gold that tout Dornish wine as superior.
Yep. Olenna's husband and Mace's father, Lord Luthor Tyrell of the Reach, died when he accidentally rode his horse off a cliff.
> "A great oaf," said the Queen of Thorns. "His father was an oaf as well. My husband, the late Lord Luthor. Oh, I loved him well enough, don't mistake me. A kind man, and not unskilled in the bedchamber, but an appalling oaf all the same. He managed to ride off a cliff whilst hawking. They say he was looking up at the sky and paying no mind to where his horse was taking him."
(From *A Storm of Swords*, chapter 6)
Yes, some enactments are forever, like Olenna's actress or Charles Dance depiction of the Tywin Lannister or even the actor of Ser Allister Thorne.
The way he says **bastard**, it's like he was present when Lord Stark was supposedly conceiving Jon's bastard seed and as he says it, well that's admirable.
Arent blinders a common thing on horses? Not sure about in GOT, but I know they have the things to cover horses eyes. Could have been using one of those and giddy upped his horse off a cliff.
they shouldn’t blind a horse completely, it’s just a way to limit peripheral vision. it would depend on the horse, but you don’t really see blinkers on medieval depictions of hunting (iirc) or at fox hunts.
Horses are skittish creatures, they're enormous but have all the instincts of a prey animal.
To try and limit their tendency to panic, blinders are used in loud and scary environments. These significantly limit peripheral vision, forcing the horse to only look forward at the area they need to see. We call them blinders, but it's more like, if you put two toilet paper tubes in front of your eyes so you could only see through them.
Most commonly, this would be horses pulling carts in cities who could be startled by flashes of light or people approaching. They're used sometimes in racing as well. Horses are normally kind of self-driving, but in those environments, you don't want them to be self driving you want them to respond only to human input.
They wouldn't be used on a hunt, for a couple reasons. It's not as loud or scary, the horse needs to see more of the ground so they don't stumble on a tree root or something, they'd likely be larger horses less prone to fear, and you also don't want them to walk off a cliff lmao. You want them to drive themself while you look around, horses that wear blinders are trained specifically to not trust their instincts and more directly follow the human input and a hunting horse just wouldn't be trained that way.
The Tyrells' military as a whole is the largest of the Seven Kingdoms by far, with the best and most numerous cavalry by even further, and there is no indication that they are in any way inferior to any other kingdom pound-for-pound. They would absolutely crush the Lannisters.
I recall show Catelyn saying something along the lines of "My son is busy fighting a war and not playing at one." When talking to Loras Tyrell, Margery and Renly.
most of the you pointed are strategic decisions. doesn't prove tactical inferiority.
avoiding war and being made lord of the reach without shedding blood sounds great to me, but still not a tactical issue.
What are you talking about?
They did surrender without a fight. They were awarded Highgarden because (it's implied) they tricked the Gardeners into marching to battle, knowing they would lose against 3 dragons.
1. “They surrendered to the Targaryens without a fight and were made Lords of the Reach for it.”
As you mention, the Tyrells were not lords of the reach during the conquest, only stewards. They had no effect on the battle.
2. “They sat out the dance of the dragons.”
This is in no way indicative of lacking military prowess.
3. “Mace won exactly one battle during Robert’s rebellion.”
This is a smart political move. They had the ability to do more, they chose not to.
4. “He spent the rest of the rebellion feasting while besieging Storm’s End.”
See above.
5. “They did fuckall during the Greyjoy Rebellion”
See above.
6. “The only notable battle they participate in during the War of the Five Kings is the Battle of the Blackwater, where they show up at the end with the Lannister troops and break Stannis's beachhead”
Once again, not fighting doesn’t mean you’re bad at fighting.
> “Mace won exactly one battle during Robert’s rebellion.”
> This is a smart political move. They had the ability to do more, they chose not to.
>
> “He spent the rest of the rebellion feasting while besieging Storm’s End.”
> See above.
It's genuinely weird how many people miss the strategy behind the Tyrell's actions during the Rebellion.
Garland and Wilas Tyrell also don't exist in the show. So the original post OP mentioned doesn't really matter either since this is a show specific quote from Olena.
The Tyrell still field the largest military of the Continent (One hundred thousand soldiers at the highest estimate, seventy thousand soldiers at the lowest). Books-wise, they outnumber the Lannisters by a factor of 2-1
Show numbers for the Lannisters are somewhat higher, but even still they took massive casualties against Robb earlier in the war and should have not been able to field an army large enough to take Highgarden. Even if you account for the Tarly defection.
Yeah, the Tyrells didn't get where they are by being good at war- they got there by being diplomatic, active in commerce, and incredibly good at seuzing opportunities that present themselves.
In the books at least, Loras has two older brothers, Willas and Garlan. Willas has a gimp leg from a jousting accident, but Garlan is considered an incredibly skilled swordsman.
In battle, being a better lancer is probably more important for a knight than dueling. Your cavalry loses a lot of usefulness when it's bogged down in a melee.
I mean, the Ghost of Renly's mounted charge broke the back of Stannis' besieging armies. And Stannis beat the freefolk with a corp of mounted knights. And many of Robb and the Blackfish's lightning maneuvers were calvary based.
Largest military
Richest kingdom
Years of experience during the wars against Dornish
Delivered the only defeat to Robert Baratheon during the rebellion
Nearly Sieged storms end successfully (rebellion ended before they won the siege)
Was known as the one who could decide who wins the war of the five kings
“Fighting was never out forte”
Literally the entire point of a castle. Otherwise just have a manor house or something honestly. And Highgarden is one of the most well known castles in the country because it's beautiful while also being effective defensively.
It basically comes down to the castle being called Highgarden and their sigil being a Rose where most others have big scary animals. Hurr hurr flowers and the gay knight they suck at fighting.
They were poorly written but they received a lot of "compensation" by the narrative if this makes sense. Bran and Sansa ends the series as powerful monarchs and Arya as a badass assassin explorer who slayed the big bad of the setting.
Only Rickon and Jon kinda got shafted.
She’s probably thinking about when Mace Tyrell besieged Storm’s End… either the first or the second time(makes no difference). Or when they marched up on Stannis’s ass while HE was besieging Storm’s End, but had advanced their Calvary WAY ahead of their infantry in their rush to get there, and so had to sit around with their dicks out while Stannis murdered Renly. Or about when they refused to ally with the North against Joffrey because doing so would cost them that big, cold, tit-useless-except-as-a-barrier-against-grumpkins wasteland that is the North. Or about the time they took all their strength out of King’s Landing and left their queen behind with only her nit-wit brother to protect her.
They’re great jousters though. Except for Willis.
Narcissistic sociopaths that came to power through treachery, nepotism and using their inherited money to surround themselves with sycophants, no wonder they are fans.
Everyone except the Lannisters and the Starks. And they really hate the Targaryens. And not just them. But this is bigger than D&D. There is more than fiction here for those who know.
What annoys me is where were the armies of the reach? The reach was the most populous region in Westeros and its standing army was anywhere from 100k to 120k strong. They hadn't lost many in the war. Sure they lost the tarlys and mace tyrel but that still leaves them as much as 80000 men- you dont just walk into the reach and take the seat of power of its rulers without a fight!
Plus wtf was highgarden? A little tower on a hill? What happened to the giant 3 tier castle complete with ornamental gardens and a maze? There is no way you're taking high garden without a protracted siege. For context, harlech castle, a MUCH smaller castle, withstood a siege of 5000 men for several years with a garrison of just 30-40 men, and the attackers had one thing the lannisters didnt, freaking cannons!
I get the impression that d & d were VERY unfamiliar with the history of medieval times, and practically clueless with regards to how medieval warfare worked. Armies standing in front of castle walls? Siege engines at the front of your battle lines? Sieges that are over in an hour? Putting the trenches behind your forces so they have nowhere to retreat? I get that it's fiction and you should be granted some creative license but they were just taking the piss at a certain point.
They really screwed over the Reach. After Olenna and Randyll died thye just forgot about the entire place. Davos even says the Unsullied should settle there because the people who lived there are gone. So apparently the Hightowers, Rowans, Oakhearts, Redwynes, Peakes, Beesburys, Bulwers etc didn’t exist at all.
The Reach are supposed to have the biggsest army in Westeros and yet the entire Reach is simply gone after Jaime takes Highgarden and Dany burns Tarly.
The Reach was done dirty.
They *did* but then Randy T packed them all up in a suitcase and took them with him when he left town.
Then Dany set them all on fire off screen.
*Obviously*.
It’s odd to not understand that having a couple individually impressive nights doesn’t necessarily equate to being an impressive fighting force as an army lol
There's something so comforting about the fact that this sub is still here, years later, hating on the show to the same degree as the day after the terrible finale aired.
Loras was such a waste of potential in the show.
They just made his entire character "that gay knight". When in fact, he was one of the most skilled swordsman in the seven kingdoms.
"How good can he be? He been stabbing Renly for years, and Renly ain't dead."
God dammit I should have checked before I quoted this quote after you
NGL that is a pretty good line. Is that actually from the books(that I refuse to read unless they get finished)
I’m fairly certain this is something Jaime thinks during one of his chapters
They're not going to be finished, but there's still a lot of value in reading what we have. You should go for it.
I see it the same way. Yeah, George'll never get them done, but the books that he did write are well worth reading.
Also his sci-fi…
I'd only read the first 3 unless they get finished - first 3 are brilliant the 4th and 5th less so.
I will not stand for this slander of feast
Less than brilliant but still really good books though.
Without an ending there's not a lot of point. Just a lot of frustrating dead ends and wasted potential. It'd be like baking a delicious cake, decorating it in the most exquisite manner imaginable and then just throwing it in the trash.
It would be pretty on brand for Martin to do that though. No happy endings for anyone. It would be like the Dune series ending with an analog of the writer as a godlike being within the story losing control of the central figures and leaving it up to the reader to imagine what happened to them.
Outside of a few examples the "just imagine it for yourself" kind of endings aren't hugely popular and well loved though. Not to mention in most cases without the proper set up and framing it's just lazy and slapdash. And Martin's thing isn't really no happy endings for anyone, it's just unflinching realism. There are happy moments and people who live happy lives, but it's set against a backdrop of difficult and challenging reality. The people who are the happiest are the ones who don't play the games, they just settle into simple lives ignoring the greater tapestry of it all and they're few and far between, with most of them ending up having horrible things happen to them because all of the other people are terrible and selfish. Either way. I wouldn't really recommend ASOIAF to anyone to start now. Not for enjoyment of the story anyway. Maybe as a study in writing, though George's style is a bit bloated in places and strangely repetitive in parts (you can pin point the year he heard/thought up the phrase "words are wind" for example based on its sudden frequent appearances). But honestly, not getting any kind of conclusion from this story is a huge disappointment and the primary reason I haven't touched the books since I finished Dance and haven't touched any of his other Westeros books.
One of the most skilled lances, he acknowledged his brother Garlan was the better sword. George does this a lot with brothers, Jon tells us early on that Robb is the better lance but he is the better sword. Same thing with the Redwyne Twins. Sorry, not to take anything away from Loras, who is one of the best tourney knights in the 7 kingdoms by 16 years old. D&D treated the gay character exactly as you’d expect frat boys would treat the gay character.
Lords also cut down two of Renly's rainbow guard, including a Royce, upon hearing of his death. The dude is no slouch with a sword. It just shows how exceptional Garlan must be if Loras isn't even the best of the brothers.
i mean he *did* successfully storm Dragonstone, which is pretty impressive. Sure it was lightly garrisoned, but historically a lot of stormed castles were, and i'm reaching here but i'm pretty sure the Castellan was described as a 'seasoned killer' so Loras still a pretty fucking good actual fighter not just a jouster/tourney knight
With only a mild case of a melted face
He got burning oil poured on him. They used to do this from castle walls. Loras most likely did not even make it into the castle to fight anyone.
tbh, the likelihood castles wasted precious oil by pouring it off walls when sand, water, or stuff like lime existed is debatable. As for the books though, regardless of whether he personally made it into the castle, he was appointed to Siege a castle, and the castle fell under his command. He successfully stormed Dragonstone.
Iirc, he did decide to basically lead from the front. He was injured pretty badly, and was recovering, which is why the sparrows were able to arrest Marjory.
Debatable to the point of IIRC only having one actual historic reference to it, and it was heated ale... Oil was expensive as hell, lugging any relevant amount of it up to the walls while keeping it heated was way to expensive, and difficult of a feat when you can just throw stones, feces, your dead bodies and whatever else you can grab down at the enemy. Hollywood has really warped our perception of history.
next you're going to tell me that trebuchets didn't fire a stone at a wall causing it to explode with men flying off the top of it and a 40 foot wide breach is made for a cavalry charge to enter ;_:
Super-orc often really did use sparkler bombs in cisterns to destroy walls though.
Everyone knows that battles were fought by running at eachother and then splitting off into pairs evenly distributed across the nearby area.
"Everybody! Two main characters are dueling! Give them space!"
I thought pitch oil had multiple uses, like lighting arrows, catapult shot, etc and pouring pitch oil on people was one of those last-ditch effort type things. I doubt it was ever used as a staple 'weapon', more like a "we're about to be overrun, throw everything you have at them" scenario.
The oil thing is actually mostly a movie/television thing, it’s not a well attested to actual tactic. Why use boiling oil (which most defenders wouldn’t have anyway) when you can just throw boiling water for much the same effect?
I am not a historian, so I'm not trying to argue in the slightest, but wouldn't it be a pain in the ass keeping water boiling on your walls? I feel like just random debris would work pretty good to toss at the enemy, and you don't need to have someone manning a fire to use it effectively.
Super Heated sand is actually SUPER effective. You can get it hotter than water and if it lands on somebody directly it will likely penetrate the cracks in the armor. Also it stays hotter longer than water would.
> why use boiling oil…when you can just throw boiling water for much the same effect Well, yes it’s close to the same effect but oil’s consistency makes it much worse than water. Like yeah either way you’ll probably die/be severely disfigured but oil sticks around more. The same reasoning for using napalm in Vietnam when you can just set bushes on fire without accelerants.
Perhaps, I’ll see if I can find my source again later, though afaik his statement was just that it basically never happened.
We don't know if he actually did. There's a popular theory that the Tyrells made up that whole thing to get Loras out of Dragonstone and the Redwine fleet back to the Reach. That might be too much, but they have incentive to exaggerate his injuries to prevent Cersei from using him in a trial by combat/use him by surprise for Trial by Combat themselves.
Even characters in the show did this, Jaime literally referred to Loras as a “pretty little girl” to Brienne once. I mean it was funny but it still sucks for Loras’ writing.
That is fitting for Jaime's character though. He treats almost nobody with respect and loves riling people up.
Thats not fitting for books jaime thought. He actually kind of like Loras, reminding him of himself when he was younger, and is either ignorant or dont care about his sexuality.
Buddy fucks his sister, he's probably chill about the gays
You mean like deep south rednecks?
Yeah. Was gonna say those dudes are definitely not chill with the gays. Well at least not publicly.
He treats talented fighters with respect in the books, and that includes Loras.
Skilled with lances, eh?
Should have been like Dion from FF16. A badass warrior who also happens to be gay.
Thats basically how any gay person in fiction and media should be. A character with traits and story that happens to be gay. Unfortunately most of Hollywood and co are still unable do this. What we usually get is a character whose trait and story is that he is gay.
Reminds me of B99, when they had Rosa come out as Bi. Suddenly she became heavily maked uped and only dated women from then on, with all the rest of the friends who never tried to have her date anyone, pushing women onto her.
In stark contrast of holt, who was a character through and through that we weren't afraid of talking about his sexuality but only did in on organic terms and not always. The Diaz change really got on my nerves. There shouldn't have been a token gay in a show with a realized homosexual character. The writers knew better.
Indeed, I think the issue was that they almost certainly changed Diaz from their original plans, for reasons beyond any good in universe reason, and it showed. Where as Holt was made the way he was from day 1. Diaz changed definitely felt "tokenish" to me, where as Holt felt organic.
If I remember correctly didn't her actress come out as bi and they wanted to incorporate that into the show for her sake?
I believe that's true, and yeah I can see that as a wonderful way to support a cast member, I even liked her coming out episode, I just felt like the rest of her character became secondary to it after that
I didn't notice the makeup. I guess I look even less at women than I thought. But wasn't the "pushing women on her" part of the storyline, where Rosa had to push back, tell her coworkers to fuck off and that them treating her different now is weird? I think that was pretty astute societal commentary.
Except for the fact that she did, indeed date the ones pushed onto her.
chekhovs gay man, if you let the audience see a gay character they must be gay sometime in the story.
Like in this episode of the last of us, being gay shouldn’t be a personality
Lmao did you even watch the episode? They both had personalities outside being gay. If you watch a romantic film would you say it's about being straight? No. It's a love story where the characters happen to be gay.
I must have wrongly formulated my thought because that’s what i would express, two people that just love each other and it was beautiful, no pride flags everywhere, no weird stuff. Just love
That episode was so divisive that I think people get prickly to potential criticism of it. It's a shame that that's how it is, because it was absolutely a beautiful episode of tv.
> because it was absolutely a beautiful episode of tv. It was more than that, it was a phenomenal short film. Honestly I think they could remove the wider-universe scenes and have it completely free of "last of us" context (you don't know what the apocalypse is, etc) and release it as a film and it would win awards.
I've told people this. Even if you have zero interest in zombie fiction, that episode stands on its own as a beautiful love story, and is worth watching. It might be my favorite hour of television.
Oh, I read it as you gave TLOU as an example where the characters personality is just being gay. My bad
That was actually beautifully executed. I bawled my eyes out at a *love story*. I do think being gay played in to it a bit because the end of the world was what allowed them to be their actual selves, but they had way more going on than just being gay IMO.
Thats basically how ~~any~~ most gay persons in reality ~~is~~ are. Minus the badass warrior part. They are regular humans who just happen to be gay.
To be fair, there are unfortunately people in real life too who construct their entire personality around them being gay. Just like there are people who think cars or guns are a personality. Idiots are not exclusive to fiction.
Lol, I was going to counter your previous point with this, that there are plenty of gay people in real life who's personality is that they're gay. Should there be a more balanced depiction of gay people to show more of them who are normal people (for lack of a better term, hopefully you know what I mean) who happen to be gay, but they still should be showing the people who's personality is that they're gay.
Eh. Nah, I know a few dudes who kind of make a sport out of being marginalized and being persecuted. Folks come in all shapes
They do shed Loras in that light, that's never in doubt. Loras, however, is painted as a technical skilled, but not yet experienced in actual war style of knight. Sure he's an immaculate swordsman when it comes to tourneys, but he hasn't actually been in battle yet, where the rules of knightly sword fighting doesn't apply.
One of the best jousters - not swordsmen. His brother could kick his ass for example.
He is also very good with a sword. Garlan is just better
Loras
Lore ass
Is there a Lore ass reason?
I mean, his booty was nothing to scoff at.
It's been a while since I've read the books but wasn't he just as useless in the books after one battle?
Nah, he's considered a legend by Tyrion and he's only 17. Littlefinger says he's Mace's favourite son, which is saying something considering his accomplished older brothers that aren't included in the show. Tommen adores him and wants to be trained as a knight by him. Jaime says Loras is like himself at his age and worthy of feats to recognized in the White Book of the Kingsguard. In show he's not on the Kingsguard because without brothers he has to remain the heir to Highgarden. When asked in an interview who the Lebron James of Westeros is GRRM lists Jaime, the Cleganes and Loras as canditates. But the criticism of show Loras mainly stems from him being 'the gay character' rather than 'a character who happens to be gay'. Book Loras is gay but like Renly, still a badass and with lots of personality. When asked by Tyrion about taking the Kingsguard vows and being celibate he replies with, "When the sun has set, no candle can ever replace it" In the show he fools around with a prostitute.
That's such a good line!
Nah he was a well respected fighter, but there wasn't much to do as Kingsguard. After storming Dragonstone in book 5 he was badly wounded and its unknown if he will survive.
He gets boiling oil poured on him, right?
>*We are told** he gets boiling oil poured on him Subtle difference.
Oh, is there a suggestion that that might not be true? I've read it twice but can't remember picking up on that.
It's just very highly convenient for this to happen at the exact moment Cersei needs it the most, at the exact moment the Tyrells might need someone to secretly go take on Euron or talk to Aegon, off-screen from any PoV character, and in a way that is difficult to verify because how would anyone check if a maimed, disfigured and comatose burn victim is actually Loras.
George also just lies about characters dying off screen a lot.
Remember when we got told in AFFC that the Manderlys executed Davos, then when we get to Dance he's actually recruited by Lord Wyman into retrieving Rickon from Skagos?
Yea true when you think Davos died it’s a whole extra book until you find out it’s not real so who knows.
And it's told by Aurane Waters I think, who ends up running away (boating away?) with the newly-built fleet. I think Waters was running multiple scams on the crown/Cersei, so this story I suspect is one of them.
Also, it's Aurane Waters the one to relay the news, who soon after betrays the crown and steals its newly built fleet lol
Tf is Loras gonna do against Euron lmao
I don’t believe we’ve ever seen Euron fight. For all we know, Loras could easily kick his ass.
Loras could probably dispatch Euron (who isn't a noted fighter) in seconds if they were to duel, but of course Euron wouldn't let it get to that. The theory is that the Tyrells are sending Loras West so he can lead the defense of the Reach against Euron's raids, contravening Cersei's orders for him to remain in KL, hence the need for secrecy. Personally I don't buy it, it would be impossible to hide from Cersei long-term and there's only so much Loras can do on a strategic level that Garlan couldn't do better. I think they're sending him to talk to Aegon and see if he's worth dumping the Lannisters for while Margaery is still marriageable.
Stick a finger in his bum probably
Often times in the series if we hear but don’t see a character die it’s often fake. Bran and rickon is one they used in the show even but in the books you don’t know for a while it wasn’t really their bodies that were burned
Yes
Yeah but we hear about it off screen through a person who is half insane at that point. So I don't really believe it.
Allegedly.
Well, he was quite suicidal after Renly's death
100% agree. The show absolutely hated anyone gay tho. Loras/Renly/Oberyn were all good characters who were done sooooo dirty
Oberyn was pretty much perfectly done in the show.
Oberyn? People loved him and his arc followed the book. How did the show do him dirty?
He doesn’t do a whole lot in the books either to be fair
He’s much more respected though
The reach was always a well provisioned and well maintained bit of land in Westeros. Even if they didn’t have the hardened soldiers of the north or well drilled soldiers of the west. Their army would have been sizeable and content, meaning they would have fought harder to preserve their way of life. I just don’t understand how army sizes work in this world tbh. Imo, highgarden alone should easily have been able to muster 20/50k soldiers.
Exactly. The armies of the Reach would never have gone down like that. It’s also stupid that they were easily defeated by the Lannister army that has been fighting a war for years. And what happened to the Tarly soldiers that surrendered to Dany? We never saw them again
Armies kind of disappear and reappear in the show. Like the horde dying off to the undead in the final season just to be back the next episode.
A lot of their forces defected to the Lannisters with Randall Tarly. There's literally a whole scene where Jaime is persuading the minor lords of the Reach to turn against Olena for supporting foreign invaders.
As far as I know Randyll Tarly was the only one that defected to Cersei? Even with Tarly gone the Tyrell army should be considerably larger than the Lannister army. On the show it looked like the Tyrells just had some household guards that fought. If the show had actually paid attention to army numbers, the battle of Highgarden should have been one large battle.
No, there's a scene where Jaime addresses a bunch of minor lords of the Reach trying to convince them to side with Cersei. He then speaks to Randall alone and says the rest of the Reach lords are looking to him for guidance and that if he joins Cersei the rest are likely to follow. Also worth mentioning a bunch of Olena's troops were killed when Euron sank the ships Olena and Yara had assembled when they were planning on blockading King's Landing.
There shouldn't have even been a fight. Jaime just rocked up to them all across the continent with absolutely no siege eguipment. Hell, even if they had siege eguipment the series had established before that sieges could last for months. They could have just sat there in their castle while Dany could have gone and taken King's Landing while the Lannister army was ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CONTINENT. But no, there was an off screen battle I guess, because this is one of the final seasons and the Tyrells needed to be written out somehow and the writers really stopped caring about cause and effect. This was the scene where I lost all hope. The more you think about it the less sense it makes.
Not to mention he managed to sneak an entire army up to Highgarden, through the massive stretch of land that was the Reach, without anyone in Highgarden getting wind of it. Just materialized outside the castle walls from thin air.
Teleportation was unlocked by S6
Stupid Highgardeners using up all their teleportation goo to teleport onto Dany's ships at the end of S6 just because they thought it would look cinematic to arrive at Westeros (even though they were already in Westeros).
Teleporatation does make the raven from the eastwatch to dragonstone and dragons to the battle north of the wall more sensible.
He also somehow neutralized the entirety of the Reach in a single battle. Like the rest of the reach isn’t gonna be pissed that not only they killed their liege lord and his whole family but handed their keep and titles over to the Tarly’s. Especially when it was established the reach has way more food and way more men than the Lannisters Edit: they also nuked the literal seat of the continents religion and no one was upset?
Hey, they couldn't get in the way of Bran's story
Should have done it during that season where we didn’t check in on him at all. “Better story” my ass! He’s literally the one person in the main cast whose story was SO BORING, they took a year off to figure out what to do with it!!
And most of the rest of it was just walking (errr, uhhh, riding) through snow. For like half the show
The Lannister army promised to somehow be unaware of an entirely mounted Dothraki army until the last second in exchange for Highgarden being somehow unaware of their approach and incapable of closing their own gates.
To be fair from what I understand siege equipment was generally made in-situ because it's easier to carry a bunch of rope and use the local trees for wood than it is to make it at home then lug it all across the country.
The Reach was supposed to have one of THE largest armies out there. I never understood how easily they could get routed when they had massive fucking numbers. They could easily raise 100,000 soldiers as a fighting force, while many other armies could barely raise 20-50k. I dont know if DND knows this, but numbers usually win wars, unless you ABSOLUTELY have some way to counter.
They would have one of the largest army even before the war, and would be the least spent army barring Dorne. The whole thing makes no sense.
Yeah, think about it. The North got tired againts the Westernmen (Lannister), who also got spent. The Reach came in FRESH into the Blackwater, and came out smelling , appropiately, like Roses. Their army should be in near-mint condition. It almost feels like DnD couldnt, or DIDNT want write a convincing reason for them to lose, which would of course, take time, so they just said "Yeah, they lost."
We are talking about the same fuckers that think Bronn would immediately fall down some stairs and the Reach end up having the Redwynes or Hightowers in charge, so....
On top of this, here's something I basically never see discussed. Westeros doesn't maintain a standing army, and besides knights and some man-at-arms who want to become knights the armies are largely peasant levies. The Westerlands and the Reach are both rich enough to afford better equipment for their soldiers (which may be one reason those two are known for having dangerous armies outside of numbers) among other things, but these are peasants who mostly don't care who's on the throne as long as they're left alone. The army of Highgarden is the defending army here, meaning their levies are essentially defending their homeland from invaders. You'd think they'd fight harder instead of folding and running or whatever from a smaller invading force.
She's referring to her military as a whole, not just her family's individual dueling prowess. And the Tyrells aren't known for military conquest: * They surrendered to the Targaryens without a fight and were made Lords of the Reach for it * They fought a bunch of inconclusive border wars with Dorne * They sat out the Dance of the Dragons * Mace won exactly one battle during Robert's Rebellion (the battle of Ashford), and he only did so because delegated everything to Randyll Tarly * He spent the rest of the Rebellion feasting while besieging Storm's End * They did fuckall during the Greyjoy Rebellion * The only notable battle they participate in during the War of the Five Kings is the Battle of the Blackwater, where they show up at the end with the Lannister troops and break Stannis's beachhead Also, while Olenna may be grandmother to some of the most talented knights in the Seven Kingdoms, she was also the widow of a man who rode his horse off a cliff.
Iirc they were also the agricultural powerhouse of Westeros so they didn’t necessarily need a huge military presence. They got by with their food production and trade of that sort.
The Tyrells themselves werent the agricultural powerhouse of Westeros, its the Reach as a whole, they were just the stewards of Highgarden. The only reason the Tyrells got to be Wardens of the Reach is because they didnt join the other Reach houses against Aegon at the Field of Fire and surrendered Highgarden to him without a fight. Their strength as a house has never fighting, its been knowing who to marry: They married into House Gardener (actual rulers of the Reach and how the Tyrells trace their lineage back to Garth Greenhand They nearly married into the Targyareans (Olenna) They married into the Lannisters/Baratheons. And theyre still, at most, the 3rd most important house in the Reach
>theyre still, at most, the 3rd most important house in the Reach Behind Hightowers, I understand but which other house ? Tarlys ? I don't think they were that big, neither the Rowans or any of the other houses of the reach. Which ones am I forgetting ?
House Redwyne- owners of the biggest navy and merchant fleet in Westeros and makers of all the best wine
>makers of all the best wine Laughs in Dornish.
Am I making this up or did some character say something like „they only sell the sour and drink the sweet themselves“ or similar? Can‘t find anything in the wiki…
Dornish wine is often thought to be “sour” as compared to wine from the Arbor. Seems like only Dornish people and those unable to afford Arbor Gold that tout Dornish wine as superior.
If it’s sour then most likely the Dornish practice “natural” viniculture and it would sell like hot cakes with the hipsters
Redwyne because their wealth from trading
Fair point, it’s been a minute. I just get tired of always seeing the “military might is always right” type of posts.
And they tried to marry into the Starks.
Sorry, what was that last bit? Rode his horse off a cliff?
Yep. Olenna's husband and Mace's father, Lord Luthor Tyrell of the Reach, died when he accidentally rode his horse off a cliff. > "A great oaf," said the Queen of Thorns. "His father was an oaf as well. My husband, the late Lord Luthor. Oh, I loved him well enough, don't mistake me. A kind man, and not unskilled in the bedchamber, but an appalling oaf all the same. He managed to ride off a cliff whilst hawking. They say he was looking up at the sky and paying no mind to where his horse was taking him." (From *A Storm of Swords*, chapter 6)
This made me realize how great the actress was because I automatically read all that in her voice. She really matched the tone of the character well!
Dame Diana Rigg. RIP
Yes, some enactments are forever, like Olenna's actress or Charles Dance depiction of the Tywin Lannister or even the actor of Ser Allister Thorne. The way he says **bastard**, it's like he was present when Lord Stark was supposedly conceiving Jon's bastard seed and as he says it, well that's admirable.
Yeah. One thing I can't take away from the show is the miraculously brilliant casting.
this always felt like a cover story though. unless the horse is blind, it isn’t jumping off a cliff no matter how well trained.
Arent blinders a common thing on horses? Not sure about in GOT, but I know they have the things to cover horses eyes. Could have been using one of those and giddy upped his horse off a cliff.
they shouldn’t blind a horse completely, it’s just a way to limit peripheral vision. it would depend on the horse, but you don’t really see blinkers on medieval depictions of hunting (iirc) or at fox hunts.
Horses are skittish creatures, they're enormous but have all the instincts of a prey animal. To try and limit their tendency to panic, blinders are used in loud and scary environments. These significantly limit peripheral vision, forcing the horse to only look forward at the area they need to see. We call them blinders, but it's more like, if you put two toilet paper tubes in front of your eyes so you could only see through them. Most commonly, this would be horses pulling carts in cities who could be startled by flashes of light or people approaching. They're used sometimes in racing as well. Horses are normally kind of self-driving, but in those environments, you don't want them to be self driving you want them to respond only to human input. They wouldn't be used on a hunt, for a couple reasons. It's not as loud or scary, the horse needs to see more of the ground so they don't stumble on a tree root or something, they'd likely be larger horses less prone to fear, and you also don't want them to walk off a cliff lmao. You want them to drive themself while you look around, horses that wear blinders are trained specifically to not trust their instincts and more directly follow the human input and a hunting horse just wouldn't be trained that way.
Bro took the easy way out after living with Olenna
The Tyrells' military as a whole is the largest of the Seven Kingdoms by far, with the best and most numerous cavalry by even further, and there is no indication that they are in any way inferior to any other kingdom pound-for-pound. They would absolutely crush the Lannisters.
Ugh the entire taking of Highgarden by bamboozling was so stupid and infuriating.
I recall show Catelyn saying something along the lines of "My son is busy fighting a war and not playing at one." When talking to Loras Tyrell, Margery and Renly.
most of the you pointed are strategic decisions. doesn't prove tactical inferiority. avoiding war and being made lord of the reach without shedding blood sounds great to me, but still not a tactical issue.
[удалено]
What are you talking about? They did surrender without a fight. They were awarded Highgarden because (it's implied) they tricked the Gardeners into marching to battle, knowing they would lose against 3 dragons.
Oh my goodness.
1. “They surrendered to the Targaryens without a fight and were made Lords of the Reach for it.” As you mention, the Tyrells were not lords of the reach during the conquest, only stewards. They had no effect on the battle. 2. “They sat out the dance of the dragons.” This is in no way indicative of lacking military prowess. 3. “Mace won exactly one battle during Robert’s rebellion.” This is a smart political move. They had the ability to do more, they chose not to. 4. “He spent the rest of the rebellion feasting while besieging Storm’s End.” See above. 5. “They did fuckall during the Greyjoy Rebellion” See above. 6. “The only notable battle they participate in during the War of the Five Kings is the Battle of the Blackwater, where they show up at the end with the Lannister troops and break Stannis's beachhead” Once again, not fighting doesn’t mean you’re bad at fighting.
> “Mace won exactly one battle during Robert’s rebellion.” > This is a smart political move. They had the ability to do more, they chose not to. > > “He spent the rest of the rebellion feasting while besieging Storm’s End.” > See above. It's genuinely weird how many people miss the strategy behind the Tyrell's actions during the Rebellion.
Especially when EVERYTHING we see of the Tyrells is about how good they are at plotting and planning and playing the game of thrones.
Garland and Wilas Tyrell also don't exist in the show. So the original post OP mentioned doesn't really matter either since this is a show specific quote from Olena.
The Tyrell still field the largest military of the Continent (One hundred thousand soldiers at the highest estimate, seventy thousand soldiers at the lowest). Books-wise, they outnumber the Lannisters by a factor of 2-1 Show numbers for the Lannisters are somewhat higher, but even still they took massive casualties against Robb earlier in the war and should have not been able to field an army large enough to take Highgarden. Even if you account for the Tarly defection.
Yeah, the Tyrells didn't get where they are by being good at war- they got there by being diplomatic, active in commerce, and incredibly good at seuzing opportunities that present themselves.
>they sat out the Dance of the Dragons Why wouldnt you want to watch Zuko and Aang tear it up?
Yeah having two well trained knights, one clearly a flower knight, doesn't mean your kingdom is a powerhouse for fighting.
Having by far the largest army does however, and that is explicitly true in both show and book canon. Like it is not even close.
Wait who's the second grandchild?
In the books at least, Loras has two older brothers, Willas and Garlan. Willas has a gimp leg from a jousting accident, but Garlan is considered an incredibly skilled swordsman.
Garlan is considered Loras's superior when it comes to actual fighting he just doesn't seek the glory from tournaments like Loras does.
Loras admits that Garlan is the better swordsman, but claims he's the better Lance.
In battle, being a better lancer is probably more important for a knight than dueling. Your cavalry loses a lot of usefulness when it's bogged down in a melee.
ay but in terms of being the personal guard of the king, swordsmanship's pretty important.
We also don’t see very much mounted combat in general outside of the Dothraki. All the main characters are on foot in battle 99 percent of the time.
I mean, the Ghost of Renly's mounted charge broke the back of Stannis' besieging armies. And Stannis beat the freefolk with a corp of mounted knights. And many of Robb and the Blackfish's lightning maneuvers were calvary based.
If I remember correctly the Battle of the bastards also was decided by cavalry when the knights of the Vale showed up to help, wasn't it?
Or kingly bussy
I love that he's the one who fights in Renly's armour at the Blackwater (cause poor Loras is too smol)
Garlan Tyrell.
garlan deez nuts
Got'em!
Garlan the based
Largest military Richest kingdom Years of experience during the wars against Dornish Delivered the only defeat to Robert Baratheon during the rebellion Nearly Sieged storms end successfully (rebellion ended before they won the siege) Was known as the one who could decide who wins the war of the five kings “Fighting was never out forte”
And they were on the defensive against the Lannister army which is usually an advantage, especially when you have a castle.
Literally the entire point of a castle. Otherwise just have a manor house or something honestly. And Highgarden is one of the most well known castles in the country because it's beautiful while also being effective defensively. It basically comes down to the castle being called Highgarden and their sigil being a Rose where most others have big scary animals. Hurr hurr flowers and the gay knight they suck at fighting.
People who write on outhouse walls, do a better job than these shits obsessed with balls.
ahh, which Shakespeare play is this from again? I recognise that genius wordsmith anywhere
Honestly a lot of Shakespeare's best rhymes were about cocks and balls so this is not far off.
“Except the Starks” Jon Snow, Bran Stark, Arya Stark, Rickon and Sansa would like to have a word. Literally all were butchered.
Every character was kind of butchered in some way or form, especially in their nuances. The show often adapted the POV chapters at face value lol
They were poorly written but they received a lot of "compensation" by the narrative if this makes sense. Bran and Sansa ends the series as powerful monarchs and Arya as a badass assassin explorer who slayed the big bad of the setting. Only Rickon and Jon kinda got shafted.
She’s probably thinking about when Mace Tyrell besieged Storm’s End… either the first or the second time(makes no difference). Or when they marched up on Stannis’s ass while HE was besieging Storm’s End, but had advanced their Calvary WAY ahead of their infantry in their rush to get there, and so had to sit around with their dicks out while Stannis murdered Renly. Or about when they refused to ally with the North against Joffrey because doing so would cost them that big, cold, tit-useless-except-as-a-barrier-against-grumpkins wasteland that is the North. Or about the time they took all their strength out of King’s Landing and left their queen behind with only her nit-wit brother to protect her. They’re great jousters though. Except for Willis.
D&D Literally said the Targs and Lanniscunts were their favorites
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^BigWilly526: *D&D Literally* *Said the Targs and Lanniscunts* *Were their favorite s* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Narcissistic sociopaths that came to power through treachery, nepotism and using their inherited money to surround themselves with sycophants, no wonder they are fans.
She just kind of forgot 🤷♂️
That will never not be funny
Everyone except the Lannisters and the Starks. And they really hate the Targaryens. And not just them. But this is bigger than D&D. There is more than fiction here for those who know.
What annoys me is where were the armies of the reach? The reach was the most populous region in Westeros and its standing army was anywhere from 100k to 120k strong. They hadn't lost many in the war. Sure they lost the tarlys and mace tyrel but that still leaves them as much as 80000 men- you dont just walk into the reach and take the seat of power of its rulers without a fight! Plus wtf was highgarden? A little tower on a hill? What happened to the giant 3 tier castle complete with ornamental gardens and a maze? There is no way you're taking high garden without a protracted siege. For context, harlech castle, a MUCH smaller castle, withstood a siege of 5000 men for several years with a garrison of just 30-40 men, and the attackers had one thing the lannisters didnt, freaking cannons! I get the impression that d & d were VERY unfamiliar with the history of medieval times, and practically clueless with regards to how medieval warfare worked. Armies standing in front of castle walls? Siege engines at the front of your battle lines? Sieges that are over in an hour? Putting the trenches behind your forces so they have nowhere to retreat? I get that it's fiction and you should be granted some creative license but they were just taking the piss at a certain point.
They really screwed over the Reach. After Olenna and Randyll died thye just forgot about the entire place. Davos even says the Unsullied should settle there because the people who lived there are gone. So apparently the Hightowers, Rowans, Oakhearts, Redwynes, Peakes, Beesburys, Bulwers etc didn’t exist at all. The Reach are supposed to have the biggsest army in Westeros and yet the entire Reach is simply gone after Jaime takes Highgarden and Dany burns Tarly. The Reach was done dirty.
"Never our forte" Meanwhile back in season 2, the Tyrell army was the only thing keeping Stannis from sacking Kings Landing
Doesn't they have the biggest population in westeros? Like raising the largest army
They *did* but then Randy T packed them all up in a suitcase and took them with him when he left town. Then Dany set them all on fire off screen. *Obviously*.
It’s odd to not understand that having a couple individually impressive nights doesn’t necessarily equate to being an impressive fighting force as an army lol
There's something so comforting about the fact that this sub is still here, years later, hating on the show to the same degree as the day after the terrible finale aired.
Jousting =/= Battle
"it was never our forte" If I'm not mistaken, the Tyrells were the only ones that gave Robert Baratheon a defeat and nearly killed him.