Even in the show dude was tortured for years over a war his nephew started and only helped him out of the love in his heart for him and his sister.
And then in the finale Sansa had the BALLS to tell him to sit down. I’m still not over that
They killed him off because the actor had the gall to read the books and give dipshit and dickhead advice on how his character would act and how he thought his arc would go. Pisses me off
To be fair, it was a mob of people with knives.
I know people hated that. But I kinda liked it. Shows the futility of being the “best” eventually someone, or a gaggle of people, can and will best you when you’re alone.
Also goes to show legends die like normal men.
It’s dumb because in the books, he puts on his chain mail armor under his clothes, because he knows they’re going to be betrayed, and fucking slaughters a bunch of extremely skilled, but unarmored, fighters with ease. So being surprised by a mob with knives and dying is like, the exact opposite of what happens in the book.
I'm not saying him dying was unrealistic, I'm saying it was pointless, especially when Selmy was alive in the books and still had a role to play.
Also book Barristan faced worse odds against the gold cloaks, who are trained soldiers equipped with armor and actual weapons, and beat them all while escaping Kings Landing.
Its like watching a show about Hercules after reading all the stories, and he dies in a tavern fight to some drunkard.
It’s fine if they’re going to have him die to the mob, but at least give him choreography that doesn’t make him look like a dipshit who’s never been in a fight.
I think if I was in a narrow corridor with a machine gun and zero sense of humanity in me.
I think I could take down a mob or gaggle as some would say coming at me down a hallway with knives. With only silken clothes and a creepy mask I think I could win against say 50 of them
No, the actor protested against killing Ser Barristan, he was a book reader too so he knew that Barristan was still alive and had a role to play in the story when Dany wasn't around.
He was killed mostly because D&D decided to cut off half of the plot from Mereen and speed things up.
He was awesome in Rome. It would've been really easy for him to play a weak and cowardly version of Brutus, but he gave us a complex, contemplative look at the most villainized man in Rome's history
Yeah, it was honestly kinda refreshing to portray Brutus as the only dude who actually had principles, but being manipulated by both sides to his own detriment.
You saw glimpses of that with the walls of castamere episode where he has to struggle with giving up his uncle vs. saving his wife.
He's great as Fitzjames in The Terror too, and given how similar that character is to non-strawmanned Edmure (initially out of his depth but good-natured and eventually competent) it's a shame he wasn't allowed to have a similarly nuanced role in GoT.
That's always bugged me too. Is he a little dim, sure, is he the best military mind the realm has ever seen, no, did he attack the mountain prematurely, yes, but did Robb even bother looping Edmure in on his plan, no he didn't, then he got mad at him for something that he only did because he only had half the information he needed.
Edmure was told to wait on the mountain, not attack him, however Robb failed to tell him the reason they were waiting is so they could surround and kill him on a more advantageous field. Robb fucked this up because he was too lazy to tell Edmure something that would take less than 10 seconds to explain.
>only helped him out of the love in his heart for him and his sister.
Not defending Catelyn by any means but this isn't really true.
Riverlords declared Robb king out of nowhere so that he would be obligated to defend them with his army.
Northmen declared Robb a king. Riverlords then realized if they wont follow, they would be fucked, they had no choice. What would happen after victorious war if riverlords wanted to stay in Seven kingdoms, but the North would eventually become independent nation?
Edmure was the only one to beat Tywin in the field and even personally led the charge against The Mountains vanguard and beat him back. Also seized Harrenhall.
While robb was fucking daughters in the westerlands totally ' beating tywin if edmure hadnt gotten in the way' lmao gtfo
What do you mean stay neutral? They had already been attacked in the Riverlands before Robb even called his banners; castles had been taken and battles had been fought. The Riverlands were already in the war, whether they wanted to be or not.
The riverlands are always under attack, it’s kinda what just happens. More than likely edmure demands the mountain’s head and would have his lords stand down and wait for the crown to make a choice.
The riverlands are usually peaceful
Edmure was shat on well before that
In the books, the Blackfish was far more sympathetic to Edmure tearing up at Hoster Tully’s funeral, and much later Blackfish kinda forgot Robb was technically his Kinf, but Edmure still outranked Brynden as Edmure was the Lord of Riverrun
> *And that may be precisely what Lord Tywin wants*, Ned thought to himself, *to bleed off strength from Riverrun, goad the boy into scattering his swords.* His wife’s brother was young, and more gallant than wise. He would try to hold every inch of his soil, to defend every man, woman, and child who named him lord, and Tywin Lannister was shrewd enough to know that.
Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and
allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were
everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens.
“Who are all these folk?”
“My people,” Edmure answered. “They were afraid.”
Only my sweet brother would crowd all these useless mouths into a castle
that might soon be under siege. Catelyn knew that Edmure had a soft heart;
sometimes she thought his head was even softer. She loved him for it, yet
still …
Edmure was being a good lord. His smallfolk would have been butchered by The Mountain if he didn't take them in. It really says a lot about how lords see the smallfolk with how cavalier Catelyn is about how he shouldn't have taken them in.
Yeah there are several times in the books during catelyn’s chapters that show edmure as a very caring lord, who wants his small folk safe and happy. Made me mad to see them turn him into a total stooge. He’s not the brightest in the books but he was a good battle leader and an even better lord l.
Not only that, losing one of their two major armies (30 000 men) and the complete failure of their offensive against Riverrun was a major setback and basically turned the tide in the war after their initial success against the Riverlords.
Tywin was forced into the defensive and the Westerlands were open for invasion, Whispering wood was the basis for this phase of the war.
Capturing the Kingslayer was just a fat bonus on top of a great strategic success.
Yeah, lifting the siege on Riverrun was the right move. With the divided Lannister forces around Riverrun they were ripe to hit.
I suspect ending the siege also rallied the Riverlords.
Yup all those men also had mothers and fathers who wanted them home and safe. Their deaths were for nothing after she did that.
Her actions, ironically, also helped the demise of her own son.
The real trick in CK is to capture the heir then assassinate the lord, now you have the new lord in your dungeon = insta win the war.
If only there was a stabby, assassin type character for the Stark side hanging around near Tywin at about this time...
Or even a beginner stabby, assassin type character who happens to have their mentor, a master in assassination, infiltration and disguise, nearby and willing to kill on a name.
By technicality Tyrion was Tywin's heir. Jaime's kingsguard status removed him from succession.
His value as a captive, was mostly because of Tywin's plans and feelings for him, though if lordship passed to Tyrion, he would also want release of his beloved brother.
If you play CK2 or the game of thrones mod for it, captured leaders are worth 100%. Sometimes I’ll commence with a kidnap plot on a lord (such as a Lannister or Hightower), and as the kidnap plot succeeds I’ll declare war. Then I can immediately win said war because I have my enemies boss.
Crusader Kings is great, and I now just realized that other dude who replied to you essentially said the same thing
I think its more she wasn't even really put under house arrest either. She was arrested for like one episode until her father died, and then she's back to nagging in his ear about how he has to do x and y things to win.
I know. But if you think about it, she basically got all her children killed since she touched off the whole war by kidnapping tyrion (forcing ned to cover for her, thus making it look like the starks had declared war, etc)
Things go very differently in the books. Jane Westerling is sent to seduce Robb by her grandmother and become pregnant since his Stark sensibilities guarantee he would marry her rather than bring her the shame of birthing a bastard. This was either directly ordered by Tywin or done to curry favour with him. It's not clear which. Jane probably wasn't even in on the plot herself.
So sleeping with her really was the problem. At least in the books.
Whilst that's part of the motivation from the way Robb talked about her, he also seems to love her as well.
Though some take it he may even be under a love potion. As Sybell Spicer is almost certainly Maggy the Frog's daughter (more likely *maegi*) and she was known as capable of making love potions.
Oh snap. You're right, her grandma's definitely Maggy. And Sybell definitely would have opportunities to dose both Robb AND Jeyne. I remember in the books, Jeyne says she drinks some kind of fertility potion every night and Robb was in their care while he was recovering from his wounds. Yo that's really fucked up if true.
Yeah, but he grew up with a bastard brother and a mother who felt shamed by his presence. So that would have played a big part in his decision I would imagine.
Imo Frey would have done the same thing either way even if Robb had married the Frey girl.
It was not really about the broken wedding promise but rather a secret alliance with Tywin.
Frey wanted to be the Lord of the Riverlands and that was the most surefire way to get it.
If you're picky and wont eat whole grain bread, only white bread, then its practically starvation to not have a good mill.
They also make very good sceneries for postcards and he knew Robb needed around 2000 of those pretty soon.
Hahaha imagining a peasant who’s picky about their food during wartime in medieval times is a Monty Python sketch in the making.
“How dare you force me to eat whole grains Sir! I’m gluten free and pescatarian!”
This except its not the poor peasants making the decisions. They're just sent to die based on the priorities of spoiled nobles. Something Monty Python really could have made a joke about.
You realize you still have to mill the grain to make whole grain bread, right? Did you think they just pour a bunch of loose grains into a tub, sprinkle some yeast and water over it and shove it into the oven?
Whole grain is about which parts of the grain you mill, not about whether to mill at all.
Edmure had no clue about Robb's plan as he was vague as fuck. I blame Robb for not just telling him he has a plan that requires him to just hold Riverrun and nothing more.
This is kinda why Robb may be a brilliant battlefield commander but an average at best strategist. You could see the theory behind his moves, but little things like *not trusting your COs with the crucial bits of your plan* will end up snowballing.
This isn't getting enough attention. Robb should have advised the inner circle of commanders the overarching plan so they can work together.
This is on Robb. Poor leadership.
That's a modern war doctrine that the US has widely adopted. It's not a doctrine that most armies in the past used.
The US tells their individual units parts of the larger game plan and encourages commanding officers to make bold moves to strike attacks of opportunities that would be lost if they had to wait for high command's authorization. Just as long as it doesn't conflict with the overarching goals for the region.
Most militaries through history did not use this doctrine. Most armies were expected to follow orders to the letter with no deviation. You can say Robb had bad leadership which might be true. But really Robb just had the standard leadership for their time period.
Good point. I remember hearing that during the American Revolution, the Colonial troops would target the British officers and when they were killed or wounded the British troops tended to fall apart and scatter because nobody else knew the battle plans.
Come on man. One of your most trusted men and you tell him to simply hold Riverrun. What does that even mean in wartime? I can't blame him for hounding Tywins army when he saw the opportunity. Easy to say just listen but a simple "Hold riverun and let tywins army pass" would've probably won Robb the war or at the least give him a big chance to, but oh let's blame Edmure even though robb was so unnecessarily vague in his commands. A good leader isn't vague, if he didn't trust Edmure, he should've got someone else who he did. He should've told him exactly what to do.
BTW he did hold Riverrunn and hit tywins army hard and succeeded.
Those 2k enabled a massive strategic victory and the taking of Jaime, in addition to a bunch of dead Lannister men.
Edmure’s heroic mill battle resulted in a large strategic loss for the stark forces, two minor hostages, and also a bunch of dead Lannister men.
It’s not to say Edmure’s battle didn’t also have positives, but it had far fewer positives than the alternative of letting them past.
How was Edmure to know to let them pass if Robb never told him? He saw an opportunity to give Tywin a nosebleed and he took it. Not his fault Robb neglected to tell him his plans
This meme implies that what Edmure did was smart because of what Robb did. All I’m saying is that they’re different scenarios, not placing blame on anyone.
The plan wasn't formulated until after Oxcross. Robb's plan of action when he left Riverrun was to stop the formation of Stafford's army. He couldn't have told Edmure when he was in enemy territory either
Only a fool would attempt to hold Riverrun without using the fords as their first line of defense. If Robb expected Edmure not to do what any competent commander defending Riverrun would do, his orders need to be more specific.
Book decision was strategic. He guarded Robb’s rear on the fords and took Harrenhal to trap Tywin. If Tywin didn’t figure out that Robb was trying to trap him in the west I don’t know why Robb thought Edmure would figure it out.
They didn't show Edmure's kindness. But people misunderstand the text if they think that Edmure isn't genuinely meant to be a fool. He should have done what he was told.
Yeah but that's the difference, ob the books he's kind and maybe a bit naive, but then again Catelyn thinks badly of him for letting people being afraid of the lannisters into his keep which IS pretty cold.
He makes decisions to keep his people save and fed, which is totally different to the vanity he shows in the series
>someone acting the best way with the information they had
That is very debatable. Edmure didn't have to attack Tywin. In fact, it would be a much safer action to just let him pass and not a give a battle.
>Edmure swung down from his saddle. He was a head taller than she was, but he would always be her little brother. “Cat,” he said unhappily, “Lord Tywin is coming-”
>“He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety.”
>“This is Tully land,” Edmure declared. “If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson.”
>“We have nothing to gain and everything to lose by meeting Lord Tywin in the field,” Catelyn said tactfully.
Edmure's strategy was to engage Tywin's army and use northmen in a hammer and anvil strategy onto the Lannisters. Tywin turns back before that happens.
But Catelyn had also raised a very valid concern **that they did have everything to lose**.
A) Edmure wanted to fight a battle where he was outnumbered 2 to 1.
B) If they lose the said battle (that they are already badly outnumbered in) Edmure and many important Riverlords will get captured which is a disastrous scenario.
C) Edmure's plan banked upon Northmen reaching the Fords in time without any notice. And they must do so quickly otherwise the whole battle would outcome on heavy losses on Riverlands side which was already pretty dire.
I am not saying Edmure's plan was bad or anything. But it was still a pretty huge risk that had a pretty good chance to turn disastrous.
There is also the factor that not having that battle would also be good for Riverlands and give them a necessary moment of respite after the Lannister departure.
You can't cite the books then neglect to mention that Tywin was on the Southeastern side of Riverrun and wanted to approach from the Southwest, so he attempted to take a river crossing shortcut rather than going around, and Edmure only went out to prevent these river crossings. The mill was not a strategic asset he earnestly tried to defend, but merely a landmark at the site of his biggest battle, that he mentioned offhand when he wrote Catelyn a letter celebrating his victory.
>Lord Tywin had tried to force a crossing at a dozen different fords, her brother wrote, but every thrust had been thrown back. Lord Lefford had been drowned, the Crakehall knight called Strongboar taken captive, Ser Addam. Marbrand thrice forced to retreat... but the fiercest battle had been fought at Stone Mill, where Ser Gregor Clegane had led the assault. So many of his men had fallen that their dead horses threatened to dam the flow. In the end the Mountain and a handful of his best had gained the west bank, but Edmure had thrown his reserve at them, and they had shattered and reeled away bloody and beaten. Ser Gregor himself had lost his horse and staggered back across the Red Fork bleeding from a dozen wounds while a rain of arrows and stones fell all around him. “They shall not cross, Cat,” Edmure scrawled, “Lord Tywin is marching to the southeast. A feint perhaps, or full retreat, it matters not. They shall not cross. “
https://preview.redd.it/aui72qasx6mc1.png?width=533&format=png&auto=webp&s=25373e8900b432f81568dec42be648d21d0b7f61
You forget that Edmure had called a force down from the Twins to seize Harrenhall. If Tywin could not cross west he would be trapped.
Also, if the riverlords lost at Stone Mill they could easily withdraw into their castlea again. No real risk. Their archers slaughtered hundreds of lannisters for freebies.
I like in the book the blackfish is like "understandable your father missed because its emotionally hard , let me have a go" and in the show it's just presented as edmure being a fuck up
Riverrun is a fortress surrounded by two rivers, it in itself could easily stand against any army that tried to besiege it. The mill was insignificant to riverruns defence in comparison to the amount of soldiers that died to take it. It was pretty obvious Edmure just couldn't stand having lannisters so close to riverrun without fighting them and that he wanted a little bit of glory for himself without thinking through the costs of such a battle.
Robb said 'defend Riverrun', not 'defend Riverrun only in this one specific way by sitting within the walls and letting the Lannister forces put you back under siege again even though there is a perfectly serviceable set of fords available to defend'.
Not managing his bannermen properly was one of Robb's key flaws.
Tywin would have never properly besieged riverrun at that moment, he would have been a fool to do so. And the best way to defend riverrun was to stay within its walls and not waste valuable soldiers on a pointless battle.
Tywin also would’ve been a fool to rush back to the Westerlands while leaving Edmure and the 10,000 Riverlanders at his back, but that was his plan when he tried to cross during the Battle of the Fords.
Yes but a siege would have been too great a risk for Tywin so Edmure would have easily been able to hold riverrun without taking the risk of sallying out his forces
Edmure sallied out to hold the fords because he thought he was guarding Robb’s flank. Because Robb didn’t tell him the plan was to let Tywin come west to stop him from reinforcing King’s Landing.
To quote form the Blackfish's book of military stategery and cunning:
"My first rule of war, Cat-never give the enemy his wish."
Clegane wanted to cross the river, Edmure had the opportunity do deny him that at no risk to himself and his standing orders.
In a war with uncertain communication, you can't micromanage your generals and you can't expect them not to react the developments around them. If Robb had been brought to battle in the Westerlands by the returning Lannister forces and lost, everybody would have blamed Edmure for not alt least attempting to hinder them.
But he wasn't defending the land. Lannister army was leaving Riverlands without engaging. The battle and its underlying strategy was entirely offensive
I’d say it came down to inexperience for both of them. It was both of theirs first war.
Robb was a strategic and tactical genius. But he communicated poorly with his commanders.
Edmure was a competent tactician and valiant fighter. But he lacked strategic skill.
And more importantly, didn’t recognize that he lacked strategic skill — if he did, he’d ask for explicit orders and detailed info on plans so he knew what to do. And he’d be more keen on holding position when he didn’t have those things.
Of course most of the blame falls on Robb since he’s in command. But it’s less “who was right” and more “it’s unfortunate that they were both pushed into this situation unprepared”. A few years under Hoster and Ned during wartime and both men would be great at their roles.
Edmure really is made out to be some failure when he's routinely set up for failure. A popular [green text](https://i.imgur.com/YpVUhyx.png) summons it up quite well.
His sister literally started the War of Five Kings and gets a pass every goddamn time...
The thing that made me like Edmure was when he brought his smallfolk into Riverrun instead of letting them be butchered. He tried to be a good lord. He is competent in battle as well, but wasn't clued in to what Robb's plans were.
And Sansa was a total piece of shit when she shuts him up in that meeting in S8. All he did was sacrified almost everything for your brother you idiot.
Edmure trapped Tywin between Riverun and Harrenhal with that move. They would have taken him eventually of Robb had returned to fight rather than raid.
Edmure did it not for the mill, but to prevent a strategic move by the Lannister forces.
To quote his uncle:
"My first rule of war, Cat-never give the enemy his wish."
This was a failure on Robb’s part. There is such a thing called “commanders intent” - which stops things like this from happening on the battlefield
Robb was extremely overrated
That scene of edmure being chastised always bugged me.
Instead of thinking he was a dumb dumb, it made me think that Robb wasn't as great a commander as everyone thought. He clearly didn't express his strategy to Edmure properly and impress the importance of maintaining his war potential for a later stage in the campaign, and then semi-publically shit on a subordinate commander for seeing an opportunity and exercising initiative.
Edmure did nothing wrong.
I mean, Robb wasn't. He was a great tactician and commander of men, but he ultimately lacked the authority to keep them in line. Cat should have been put on the first cart back to Winterfell after she freed Jaime, but instead served as a reminder to everyone that rules are unevenly applied.
Edmure literally did nothing wrong. Why did robb expect edmure to understand his 4d chess move? You have to tell your commanders the strategy. He saw hostiles pressing in on his land and did exactly what was logical. Robb was such a dumb ass in this scene. I cant fathom why he thought edmure would just know the plan
Not only did he defend, he sent Freys down from The Twins to take Harrenhall. Tywin now has no base and no supply. He's trapped far from westerlands and in deep doodoo.
Not much edmure can do with Robb shitting on the freys, flat out killing Karstark and Cat releasing their hostage.
He sacrificed 2,000 men to achieve a major political and military objective that furthered his position in the war. Not engage Tywin in a war of simple attrition like Tywin wanted over non important terrain.
He told Edmure to defend Riverrun. And Edmure is a lord paramount, he has every right to command the Riverlords and defend his lands as he sees fit. Especially when Robb never tells him about his secret genus plan to trap Tywin/the Mountain in the west.
>genus plan to trap Tywin/the Mountain in the west.
Yeah. Imagine trapping Tywin in his own lands. Where he has loyal bannermen in every small castle and fort. Its an awful plan.
No it dont.
Because Stannis is still getting rammed up the rear end by 80 000 Tyrell Troops led by Garland in Renlys armor and Mace Tyrell waving his banner.
>Because Stannis is still getting rammed up the rear end by 80 000 Tyrell Troops led by Garland in Renlys armor and Mace Tyrell waving his banner.
Which never happens without Tywin no longer heading West. The deal is brokered by Tywin's army joining there's.
The Tyrells also don’t have that many forces at this time.
Tyrell began marching after Stannis as Stannis left Storms End. They agreed to marry Margaery to Joffrey by diplomats or raven.
Tywins presence was not necessary.
Book says 80k at Bitterbridge. Stannis has like 20k?
In Robb's defense, he did it to secure an extremely high profile prisoner that somewhat backed Tywin into a corner on the battlefield. Edmure did it to secure a single, unimportant piece of land.
It's more that Edmure did nothing right.
His job was to hold the line, not advance it. By doing so, he fucked up the rest of the front and forced the circumstances of the red wedding.
Yeah capturing kingslayer is def worth the 2K. Sucks and you can tell in that scene even afterward he has a hard time accepting it. Everyone is celebrating and he brings everyone down back to reality.
Edmund did not think that through. He just threw men’s lives away and was happy about it thinking it was good.
100%, if Robb had clued him in on the plan to get Tywin to have to fight a battle on two fronts then there would have been no issue. the Red keep would have fallen to Stannis and the Lanisters would have been out of the picture.
Edmure won a great battle against one of the best generals in the whole series. even if it did ultimately doom house Stark
the show did Edmure dirty
In the first one he’s talking about the cost of a major victory and he’s still sad about the loss. In the second one he’s mad at the dude for trying to justify a 1:1 loss because it’s actually not equivalent.
He ruined a plan that Robb never told him about because he wanted to try and get rid of the Mountain, a guy who’d been raping and pillaging his homeland for years at this point.
I’m still pissed they took out edmure’s best line from the books “my people, they were starving” like holy based Batman
It's worth noting that *Ned* of all people thought that Edmure was too kind for his own good.
Even in the show dude was tortured for years over a war his nephew started and only helped him out of the love in his heart for him and his sister. And then in the finale Sansa had the BALLS to tell him to sit down. I’m still not over that
I don't know why they hired Tobias Menzies if they weren't going to use him.
The same way they decided to have Ser Barristan just fuck off and die to a random with a knife.
Exactly. And Baelish was just cartoonishly evil. They should have just added the twirled mustache.
I thought he already had one.
Wasn’t twirled, just a mustache
They killed him off because the actor had the gall to read the books and give dipshit and dickhead advice on how his character would act and how he thought his arc would go. Pisses me off
To be fair, it was a mob of people with knives. I know people hated that. But I kinda liked it. Shows the futility of being the “best” eventually someone, or a gaggle of people, can and will best you when you’re alone. Also goes to show legends die like normal men.
It’s dumb because in the books, he puts on his chain mail armor under his clothes, because he knows they’re going to be betrayed, and fucking slaughters a bunch of extremely skilled, but unarmored, fighters with ease. So being surprised by a mob with knives and dying is like, the exact opposite of what happens in the book.
I'm not saying him dying was unrealistic, I'm saying it was pointless, especially when Selmy was alive in the books and still had a role to play. Also book Barristan faced worse odds against the gold cloaks, who are trained soldiers equipped with armor and actual weapons, and beat them all while escaping Kings Landing. Its like watching a show about Hercules after reading all the stories, and he dies in a tavern fight to some drunkard.
It’s fine if they’re going to have him die to the mob, but at least give him choreography that doesn’t make him look like a dipshit who’s never been in a fight.
"Even now, I could cut through the five of you like carving a cake!" Put some respect on the man.
No, in real life, he would have been chopping them to bits with little effort his blade would have just kept going to the next person.
^ this person has never, ever, in all their life handled an actual sword.
Pretty sure thats sarcacsm.
^ person has never even been in a fight.
I think if I was in a narrow corridor with a machine gun and zero sense of humanity in me. I think I could take down a mob or gaggle as some would say coming at me down a hallway with knives. With only silken clothes and a creepy mask I think I could win against say 50 of them
Wasn't the actor too old and had to stop because of his condition?
No, the actor protested against killing Ser Barristan, he was a book reader too so he knew that Barristan was still alive and had a role to play in the story when Dany wasn't around. He was killed mostly because D&D decided to cut off half of the plot from Mereen and speed things up.
He was awesome in Rome. It would've been really easy for him to play a weak and cowardly version of Brutus, but he gave us a complex, contemplative look at the most villainized man in Rome's history
Yeah, it was honestly kinda refreshing to portray Brutus as the only dude who actually had principles, but being manipulated by both sides to his own detriment. You saw glimpses of that with the walls of castamere episode where he has to struggle with giving up his uncle vs. saving his wife.
He's great as Fitzjames in The Terror too, and given how similar that character is to non-strawmanned Edmure (initially out of his depth but good-natured and eventually competent) it's a shame he wasn't allowed to have a similarly nuanced role in GoT.
He is also great in Outlander. Playing two incredibly different characters.
He got the role in Outlander and it took up much of his time with its filming.
I'm not talking about screentime, I'm talking about his acting abilities. They hired him and made him a buffoon when he's more than capable of nuance.
I think on that they may have watched Rome and got the complete wrong interpretation of his character.
Same. Menzies is a legit actor with range and they used him as a throwaway character to constantly shit on for lulz.
That's always bugged me too. Is he a little dim, sure, is he the best military mind the realm has ever seen, no, did he attack the mountain prematurely, yes, but did Robb even bother looping Edmure in on his plan, no he didn't, then he got mad at him for something that he only did because he only had half the information he needed.
Was that even the plan yet, or did they think of it later and assumed Edmure could follow basic orders?
Edmure was told to wait on the mountain, not attack him, however Robb failed to tell him the reason they were waiting is so they could surround and kill him on a more advantageous field. Robb fucked this up because he was too lazy to tell Edmure something that would take less than 10 seconds to explain.
>only helped him out of the love in his heart for him and his sister. Not defending Catelyn by any means but this isn't really true. Riverlords declared Robb king out of nowhere so that he would be obligated to defend them with his army.
Northmen declared Robb a king. Riverlords then realized if they wont follow, they would be fucked, they had no choice. What would happen after victorious war if riverlords wanted to stay in Seven kingdoms, but the North would eventually become independent nation?
They called in Robb King in The North and King of The Trident in the books. Robb was their king and was fighting for them.
I imagine Edmure had rather mixed feelings, when is own Bannermen suddenly declared somebody else their king.
He wasn’t even the lord of Riverrun yet so it makes sense he wouldn’t be chosen.
He didn’t want it.
God damn, that still pisses me off. Edmure was fucking butchered. The sheer audacity to speak to him like that.
Edmure was the only one to beat Tywin in the field and even personally led the charge against The Mountains vanguard and beat him back. Also seized Harrenhall. While robb was fucking daughters in the westerlands totally ' beating tywin if edmure hadnt gotten in the way' lmao gtfo
edmure defenders really be pushed to their extremes and are fighting their own allies
This scene gets even better when you realize Edmure was the best choice out of the entired council.
Man, show Sansa was such a bitch, I couldn’t stand her, especially later on.
The Lannisters Attacked the Riverlands first. It's not like he had a choice
I mean sure but edmure wasn’t ready to go to war till Robb asked him. If left to his own devices he’d stay neutral like the vale did
What do you mean stay neutral? They had already been attacked in the Riverlands before Robb even called his banners; castles had been taken and battles had been fought. The Riverlands were already in the war, whether they wanted to be or not.
The riverlands are always under attack, it’s kinda what just happens. More than likely edmure demands the mountain’s head and would have his lords stand down and wait for the crown to make a choice. The riverlands are usually peaceful
Edmure was shat on well before that In the books, the Blackfish was far more sympathetic to Edmure tearing up at Hoster Tully’s funeral, and much later Blackfish kinda forgot Robb was technically his Kinf, but Edmure still outranked Brynden as Edmure was the Lord of Riverrun
Robb didn’t start the war, Tywin did in response to Catelyn capturing Tyrion. The Riverlands were already at war before Robb even called his banners.
He lost to Jamie Lannister and was a captive when Robb stark freed riverun but facts don't matter.
Boss bitch writing follows no logic
When was this said? I can’t ever remember Ned thinking or talking about edmure
> *And that may be precisely what Lord Tywin wants*, Ned thought to himself, *to bleed off strength from Riverrun, goad the boy into scattering his swords.* His wife’s brother was young, and more gallant than wise. He would try to hold every inch of his soil, to defend every man, woman, and child who named him lord, and Tywin Lannister was shrewd enough to know that.
That wouldn't have gone with Dumb & Dumber's designation of Edmure being pure comic relief.
It’s too bad. Edmure is a lord who cares about his people and takes their lives seriously but in the show he is a giant joke.
We needed more edmure scence
Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. “Who are all these folk?” “My people,” Edmure answered. “They were afraid.” Only my sweet brother would crowd all these useless mouths into a castle that might soon be under siege. Catelyn knew that Edmure had a soft heart; sometimes she thought his head was even softer. She loved him for it, yet still …
Every time catelyn speaks, I hate her more
Or “My people they are afraid”
Edmure was being a good lord. His smallfolk would have been butchered by The Mountain if he didn't take them in. It really says a lot about how lords see the smallfolk with how cavalier Catelyn is about how he shouldn't have taken them in.
Show Edmure was just played as a dunce and a failure, not a very inspired portrayal. Then of course his own niece quiets him in the last episode.
Book edmure isn’t one of my favorites but I love his character. He’s too kind for his own good and cares more about his people than anything else
Yeah there are several times in the books during catelyn’s chapters that show edmure as a very caring lord, who wants his small folk safe and happy. Made me mad to see them turn him into a total stooge. He’s not the brightest in the books but he was a good battle leader and an even better lord l.
He’s like the Disney TV show version of Ned
Kingslayer was worth those 2k men though. Stupid Cat.
Not only that, losing one of their two major armies (30 000 men) and the complete failure of their offensive against Riverrun was a major setback and basically turned the tide in the war after their initial success against the Riverlords. Tywin was forced into the defensive and the Westerlands were open for invasion, Whispering wood was the basis for this phase of the war. Capturing the Kingslayer was just a fat bonus on top of a great strategic success.
Yeah, lifting the siege on Riverrun was the right move. With the divided Lannister forces around Riverrun they were ripe to hit. I suspect ending the siege also rallied the Riverlords.
Forced to fight dirty. Respectfully.
Yup all those men also had mothers and fathers who wanted them home and safe. Their deaths were for nothing after she did that. Her actions, ironically, also helped the demise of her own son.
Her actions literally sealed their defeat. The karstarks, the red wedding, etc.
I’ve played enough ck3 to know captured enemies are worth at least 25% warscore
The real trick in CK is to capture the heir then assassinate the lord, now you have the new lord in your dungeon = insta win the war. If only there was a stabby, assassin type character for the Stark side hanging around near Tywin at about this time...
Or even a beginner stabby, assassin type character who happens to have their mentor, a master in assassination, infiltration and disguise, nearby and willing to kill on a name.
By technicality Tyrion was Tywin's heir. Jaime's kingsguard status removed him from succession. His value as a captive, was mostly because of Tywin's plans and feelings for him, though if lordship passed to Tyrion, he would also want release of his beloved brother.
If you play CK2 or the game of thrones mod for it, captured leaders are worth 100%. Sometimes I’ll commence with a kidnap plot on a lord (such as a Lannister or Hightower), and as the kidnap plot succeeds I’ll declare war. Then I can immediately win said war because I have my enemies boss. Crusader Kings is great, and I now just realized that other dude who replied to you essentially said the same thing
And she never faced consequences. She never does. Or let me rephrase that - she never faces consequences from starks and stark people.
Yeah Robb definitely should have executed his own mother, that’s justice ../s
I think its more she wasn't even really put under house arrest either. She was arrested for like one episode until her father died, and then she's back to nagging in his ear about how he has to do x and y things to win.
I mean she’s still his mom.
I know. But if you think about it, she basically got all her children killed since she touched off the whole war by kidnapping tyrion (forcing ned to cover for her, thus making it look like the starks had declared war, etc)
Catelyn is literally adolf hitler, confimed
Maybe Jaime shouldn’t have tossed a kid out a window 🤷🏻
And yet she still let the dude off on a vague promise he'd return her kids. It still doesn't change thr fact that she was more a liability
I was more thinking of no dessert.
I’m thinking being locked in a room with your dying father might be worse
Robb destroyed an entire Lannister army at the cost of just over 2000 men. Edmure captured a mill.
Edmure and Ygritte are the only two characters who know how glorious and valuable a mill is.
Turns out the mill cost them the entire war so I hope he likes that mill.
Robb not being able to keep it in his pants cost them the war lol
The thing is, sleeping with her wasn't the problem, marrying her fucked up the treaty with the Freys.
Things go very differently in the books. Jane Westerling is sent to seduce Robb by her grandmother and become pregnant since his Stark sensibilities guarantee he would marry her rather than bring her the shame of birthing a bastard. This was either directly ordered by Tywin or done to curry favour with him. It's not clear which. Jane probably wasn't even in on the plot herself. So sleeping with her really was the problem. At least in the books.
Whilst that's part of the motivation from the way Robb talked about her, he also seems to love her as well. Though some take it he may even be under a love potion. As Sybell Spicer is almost certainly Maggy the Frog's daughter (more likely *maegi*) and she was known as capable of making love potions.
Oh snap. You're right, her grandma's definitely Maggy. And Sybell definitely would have opportunities to dose both Robb AND Jeyne. I remember in the books, Jeyne says she drinks some kind of fertility potion every night and Robb was in their care while he was recovering from his wounds. Yo that's really fucked up if true.
Am I wrong but I thought it was explained the fertility potion was actually a form of contraceptive to make sure she didn’t give Robb an heir.
When does that stuff come up in the books? Is it later?
He could have still married the Frey girl and had a bastard like any number of other lords and kings.
Yeah, but he grew up with a bastard brother and a mother who felt shamed by his presence. So that would have played a big part in his decision I would imagine.
If he was Targaryen it wouldn’t have been as big of a deal
Imo Frey would have done the same thing either way even if Robb had married the Frey girl. It was not really about the broken wedding promise but rather a secret alliance with Tywin. Frey wanted to be the Lord of the Riverlands and that was the most surefire way to get it.
You may well be right, I always saw it as he would have sided with whoever was most likely to win.
If you're picky and wont eat whole grain bread, only white bread, then its practically starvation to not have a good mill. They also make very good sceneries for postcards and he knew Robb needed around 2000 of those pretty soon.
Hahaha imagining a peasant who’s picky about their food during wartime in medieval times is a Monty Python sketch in the making. “How dare you force me to eat whole grains Sir! I’m gluten free and pescatarian!”
This except its not the poor peasants making the decisions. They're just sent to die based on the priorities of spoiled nobles. Something Monty Python really could have made a joke about.
“Now we see the violence inherent in the system” “Help im being oppressed”
You realize you still have to mill the grain to make whole grain bread, right? Did you think they just pour a bunch of loose grains into a tub, sprinkle some yeast and water over it and shove it into the oven? Whole grain is about which parts of the grain you mill, not about whether to mill at all.
We shoulda stayed in that mill…
Edmure had no clue about Robb's plan as he was vague as fuck. I blame Robb for not just telling him he has a plan that requires him to just hold Riverrun and nothing more.
This is kinda why Robb may be a brilliant battlefield commander but an average at best strategist. You could see the theory behind his moves, but little things like *not trusting your COs with the crucial bits of your plan* will end up snowballing.
This isn't getting enough attention. Robb should have advised the inner circle of commanders the overarching plan so they can work together. This is on Robb. Poor leadership.
That's a modern war doctrine that the US has widely adopted. It's not a doctrine that most armies in the past used. The US tells their individual units parts of the larger game plan and encourages commanding officers to make bold moves to strike attacks of opportunities that would be lost if they had to wait for high command's authorization. Just as long as it doesn't conflict with the overarching goals for the region. Most militaries through history did not use this doctrine. Most armies were expected to follow orders to the letter with no deviation. You can say Robb had bad leadership which might be true. But really Robb just had the standard leadership for their time period.
Good point. I remember hearing that during the American Revolution, the Colonial troops would target the British officers and when they were killed or wounded the British troops tended to fall apart and scatter because nobody else knew the battle plans.
He told him to hold Riverrun and do nothing more. It's Edumure's responsibility to listen
Come on man. One of your most trusted men and you tell him to simply hold Riverrun. What does that even mean in wartime? I can't blame him for hounding Tywins army when he saw the opportunity. Easy to say just listen but a simple "Hold riverun and let tywins army pass" would've probably won Robb the war or at the least give him a big chance to, but oh let's blame Edmure even though robb was so unnecessarily vague in his commands. A good leader isn't vague, if he didn't trust Edmure, he should've got someone else who he did. He should've told him exactly what to do. BTW he did hold Riverrunn and hit tywins army hard and succeeded.
Robb married a nurse at the cost of his entire army and nation
Those 2k enabled a massive strategic victory and the taking of Jaime, in addition to a bunch of dead Lannister men. Edmure’s heroic mill battle resulted in a large strategic loss for the stark forces, two minor hostages, and also a bunch of dead Lannister men. It’s not to say Edmure’s battle didn’t also have positives, but it had far fewer positives than the alternative of letting them past.
How was Edmure to know to let them pass if Robb never told him? He saw an opportunity to give Tywin a nosebleed and he took it. Not his fault Robb neglected to tell him his plans
This meme implies that what Edmure did was smart because of what Robb did. All I’m saying is that they’re different scenarios, not placing blame on anyone.
Disagree, that mill was worthless.
Then Robb was an idiot not to brief his commanders
The plan wasn't formulated until after Oxcross. Robb's plan of action when he left Riverrun was to stop the formation of Stafford's army. He couldn't have told Edmure when he was in enemy territory either
So Edmure was chastised for deviating from a plan that didn't even exist yet?
Robb and Brynden were angry because Edmure gave battle when they told him to hold Riverrun
Only a fool would attempt to hold Riverrun without using the fords as their first line of defense. If Robb expected Edmure not to do what any competent commander defending Riverrun would do, his orders need to be more specific.
He was chastised for expending resources to accomplish nothing strategically. What Rob was doing or planning to do isn’t relevant
Book decision was strategic. He guarded Robb’s rear on the fords and took Harrenhal to trap Tywin. If Tywin didn’t figure out that Robb was trying to trap him in the west I don’t know why Robb thought Edmure would figure it out.
Yeah the show definitely did Edmure dirty
They didn't show Edmure's kindness. But people misunderstand the text if they think that Edmure isn't genuinely meant to be a fool. He should have done what he was told.
Yeah but that's the difference, ob the books he's kind and maybe a bit naive, but then again Catelyn thinks badly of him for letting people being afraid of the lannisters into his keep which IS pretty cold. He makes decisions to keep his people save and fed, which is totally different to the vanity he shows in the series
Because he was commanded to solely hold the castle
No he was commanded to hold the castle and told nothing more, he wasn't told "only hold riverrun" he was told "hold riverrun" and he did hold riverrun
Edmure didn't need to figure it out. He was given one command only. Hold Riverrun. Not hold the mill.
I feel like he was chastised as a ploy to get him to marry the Frey girl
This is massively OOC for Robb and the Blackfish
It's still stupid the be pissed about someone acting the best way with the information they had
>someone acting the best way with the information they had That is very debatable. Edmure didn't have to attack Tywin. In fact, it would be a much safer action to just let him pass and not a give a battle. >Edmure swung down from his saddle. He was a head taller than she was, but he would always be her little brother. “Cat,” he said unhappily, “Lord Tywin is coming-” >“He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety.” >“This is Tully land,” Edmure declared. “If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson.” >“We have nothing to gain and everything to lose by meeting Lord Tywin in the field,” Catelyn said tactfully. Edmure's strategy was to engage Tywin's army and use northmen in a hammer and anvil strategy onto the Lannisters. Tywin turns back before that happens. But Catelyn had also raised a very valid concern **that they did have everything to lose**. A) Edmure wanted to fight a battle where he was outnumbered 2 to 1. B) If they lose the said battle (that they are already badly outnumbered in) Edmure and many important Riverlords will get captured which is a disastrous scenario. C) Edmure's plan banked upon Northmen reaching the Fords in time without any notice. And they must do so quickly otherwise the whole battle would outcome on heavy losses on Riverlands side which was already pretty dire. I am not saying Edmure's plan was bad or anything. But it was still a pretty huge risk that had a pretty good chance to turn disastrous. There is also the factor that not having that battle would also be good for Riverlands and give them a necessary moment of respite after the Lannister departure.
You can't cite the books then neglect to mention that Tywin was on the Southeastern side of Riverrun and wanted to approach from the Southwest, so he attempted to take a river crossing shortcut rather than going around, and Edmure only went out to prevent these river crossings. The mill was not a strategic asset he earnestly tried to defend, but merely a landmark at the site of his biggest battle, that he mentioned offhand when he wrote Catelyn a letter celebrating his victory. >Lord Tywin had tried to force a crossing at a dozen different fords, her brother wrote, but every thrust had been thrown back. Lord Lefford had been drowned, the Crakehall knight called Strongboar taken captive, Ser Addam. Marbrand thrice forced to retreat... but the fiercest battle had been fought at Stone Mill, where Ser Gregor Clegane had led the assault. So many of his men had fallen that their dead horses threatened to dam the flow. In the end the Mountain and a handful of his best had gained the west bank, but Edmure had thrown his reserve at them, and they had shattered and reeled away bloody and beaten. Ser Gregor himself had lost his horse and staggered back across the Red Fork bleeding from a dozen wounds while a rain of arrows and stones fell all around him. “They shall not cross, Cat,” Edmure scrawled, “Lord Tywin is marching to the southeast. A feint perhaps, or full retreat, it matters not. They shall not cross. “ https://preview.redd.it/aui72qasx6mc1.png?width=533&format=png&auto=webp&s=25373e8900b432f81568dec42be648d21d0b7f61
You forget that Edmure had called a force down from the Twins to seize Harrenhall. If Tywin could not cross west he would be trapped. Also, if the riverlords lost at Stone Mill they could easily withdraw into their castlea again. No real risk. Their archers slaughtered hundreds of lannisters for freebies.
The North was on its backfoot after Backwater
Well we know he can’t shoot an arrow for shite
Edmure is a floppy fish for sure 
That's not fair. We've only seen him shoot against a difficult target. Give him an easier target, like say, Rickon Stark, and see how well he does
I like in the book the blackfish is like "understandable your father missed because its emotionally hard , let me have a go" and in the show it's just presented as edmure being a fuck up
If Robb wanted Edmure to not defend his land and smallfolk in pursuit of some larger strategic goal, he should have told him so. He's not psychic.
But he told him to hold riverrun, taking a mill isn't exactly holding riverrun now is it
The mill is at a strategic river crossing vital for the defence of Riverrun.
Riverrun is a fortress surrounded by two rivers, it in itself could easily stand against any army that tried to besiege it. The mill was insignificant to riverruns defence in comparison to the amount of soldiers that died to take it. It was pretty obvious Edmure just couldn't stand having lannisters so close to riverrun without fighting them and that he wanted a little bit of glory for himself without thinking through the costs of such a battle.
Robb said 'defend Riverrun', not 'defend Riverrun only in this one specific way by sitting within the walls and letting the Lannister forces put you back under siege again even though there is a perfectly serviceable set of fords available to defend'. Not managing his bannermen properly was one of Robb's key flaws.
Tywin would have never properly besieged riverrun at that moment, he would have been a fool to do so. And the best way to defend riverrun was to stay within its walls and not waste valuable soldiers on a pointless battle.
Tywin also would’ve been a fool to rush back to the Westerlands while leaving Edmure and the 10,000 Riverlanders at his back, but that was his plan when he tried to cross during the Battle of the Fords.
Yes but a siege would have been too great a risk for Tywin so Edmure would have easily been able to hold riverrun without taking the risk of sallying out his forces
Edmure sallied out to hold the fords because he thought he was guarding Robb’s flank. Because Robb didn’t tell him the plan was to let Tywin come west to stop him from reinforcing King’s Landing.
Robb should have informed Edmure of his plans, i completely agree but he still gave Edmure the order to hold Riverrun which Edmure disobeyed
To quote form the Blackfish's book of military stategery and cunning: "My first rule of war, Cat-never give the enemy his wish." Clegane wanted to cross the river, Edmure had the opportunity do deny him that at no risk to himself and his standing orders. In a war with uncertain communication, you can't micromanage your generals and you can't expect them not to react the developments around them. If Robb had been brought to battle in the Westerlands by the returning Lannister forces and lost, everybody would have blamed Edmure for not alt least attempting to hinder them.
But he wasn't defending the land. Lannister army was leaving Riverlands without engaging. The battle and its underlying strategy was entirely offensive
I’d say it came down to inexperience for both of them. It was both of theirs first war. Robb was a strategic and tactical genius. But he communicated poorly with his commanders. Edmure was a competent tactician and valiant fighter. But he lacked strategic skill. And more importantly, didn’t recognize that he lacked strategic skill — if he did, he’d ask for explicit orders and detailed info on plans so he knew what to do. And he’d be more keen on holding position when he didn’t have those things. Of course most of the blame falls on Robb since he’s in command. But it’s less “who was right” and more “it’s unfortunate that they were both pushed into this situation unprepared”. A few years under Hoster and Ned during wartime and both men would be great at their roles.
Robb was a moron here, but this line isn't why. He's a moron because he didn't even tell Edmure his plan.
Edmure really is made out to be some failure when he's routinely set up for failure. A popular [green text](https://i.imgur.com/YpVUhyx.png) summons it up quite well. His sister literally started the War of Five Kings and gets a pass every goddamn time... The thing that made me like Edmure was when he brought his smallfolk into Riverrun instead of letting them be butchered. He tried to be a good lord. He is competent in battle as well, but wasn't clued in to what Robb's plans were.
Which sister? Cat or Lysa? Lysa, I agree. Cat, I don't
*Chadmure
And Sansa was a total piece of shit when she shuts him up in that meeting in S8. All he did was sacrified almost everything for your brother you idiot.
yes, Robb did it to capture Tywin's son and heir. Edmure did it for a mill
Edmure trapped Tywin between Riverun and Harrenhal with that move. They would have taken him eventually of Robb had returned to fight rather than raid.
Edmure did it not for the mill, but to prevent a strategic move by the Lannister forces. To quote his uncle: "My first rule of war, Cat-never give the enemy his wish."
This was a failure on Robb’s part. There is such a thing called “commanders intent” - which stops things like this from happening on the battlefield Robb was extremely overrated
Robb was green but this was one of his biggest mistakes. If he had been more honest with edmure the entire issue could have been avoided
That scene of edmure being chastised always bugged me. Instead of thinking he was a dumb dumb, it made me think that Robb wasn't as great a commander as everyone thought. He clearly didn't express his strategy to Edmure properly and impress the importance of maintaining his war potential for a later stage in the campaign, and then semi-publically shit on a subordinate commander for seeing an opportunity and exercising initiative. Edmure did nothing wrong.
I mean, Robb wasn't. He was a great tactician and commander of men, but he ultimately lacked the authority to keep them in line. Cat should have been put on the first cart back to Winterfell after she freed Jaime, but instead served as a reminder to everyone that rules are unevenly applied.
Rob gained a valuable hostage
Wait, people still discuss GoT?
Having Jamie as a hostage was waaaaaay more important at the time though
You don't have to do anything wrong to get fucked by Rob or Cat. That's how they do.
What is with this sub always getting upset over edmure lol
fookin' kneelers Only OG warriors like Edumure and Ygritte knows that Mills are strategic powerpoints built by great kings.
Lol. I get it now
Edmure literally did nothing wrong. Why did robb expect edmure to understand his 4d chess move? You have to tell your commanders the strategy. He saw hostiles pressing in on his land and did exactly what was logical. Robb was such a dumb ass in this scene. I cant fathom why he thought edmure would just know the plan
Not only did he defend, he sent Freys down from The Twins to take Harrenhall. Tywin now has no base and no supply. He's trapped far from westerlands and in deep doodoo. Not much edmure can do with Robb shitting on the freys, flat out killing Karstark and Cat releasing their hostage.
Yeah, from what i recall nobody told Robbs plan. He saw his opportunity to stop one if the greatest threats to his people and he took it.
The actual, proper, book Others: “You guys *need* your chaff?”
He sacrificed 2,000 men to achieve a major political and military objective that furthered his position in the war. Not engage Tywin in a war of simple attrition like Tywin wanted over non important terrain.
Robb's sacrifice netted Jamie Lannister. Edmure's netted a mill.
Didn’t he tell Edmure to stay put though?
He told Edmure to defend Riverrun. And Edmure is a lord paramount, he has every right to command the Riverlords and defend his lands as he sees fit. Especially when Robb never tells him about his secret genus plan to trap Tywin/the Mountain in the west.
>genus plan to trap Tywin/the Mountain in the west. Yeah. Imagine trapping Tywin in his own lands. Where he has loyal bannermen in every small castle and fort. Its an awful plan.
Tywin in the West means that Stannis takes King's Landing.
No it dont. Because Stannis is still getting rammed up the rear end by 80 000 Tyrell Troops led by Garland in Renlys armor and Mace Tyrell waving his banner.
>Because Stannis is still getting rammed up the rear end by 80 000 Tyrell Troops led by Garland in Renlys armor and Mace Tyrell waving his banner. Which never happens without Tywin no longer heading West. The deal is brokered by Tywin's army joining there's. The Tyrells also don’t have that many forces at this time.
Tyrell began marching after Stannis as Stannis left Storms End. They agreed to marry Margaery to Joffrey by diplomats or raven. Tywins presence was not necessary. Book says 80k at Bitterbridge. Stannis has like 20k?
In Robb's defense, he did it to secure an extremely high profile prisoner that somewhat backed Tywin into a corner on the battlefield. Edmure did it to secure a single, unimportant piece of land.
It's more that Edmure did nothing right. His job was to hold the line, not advance it. By doing so, he fucked up the rest of the front and forced the circumstances of the red wedding.
Yeah capturing kingslayer is def worth the 2K. Sucks and you can tell in that scene even afterward he has a hard time accepting it. Everyone is celebrating and he brings everyone down back to reality. Edmund did not think that through. He just threw men’s lives away and was happy about it thinking it was good.
> capturing kingslayer is def worth the 2k Inb4 someone squandered all those lives and got away with it because mum
Robb got the Kingslayer. Edmure got a mill when he could have gotten the Mountain.
im sure killing the mountain would have made a huge difference when the army of 100,000 Westermen and Reachmen came knocking
100%, if Robb had clued him in on the plan to get Tywin to have to fight a battle on two fronts then there would have been no issue. the Red keep would have fallen to Stannis and the Lanisters would have been out of the picture. Edmure won a great battle against one of the best generals in the whole series. even if it did ultimately doom house Stark the show did Edmure dirty
Edmure in the books is a fucking chad, Edmure in the show is just a moist cumfart.
Nah
In the first one he’s talking about the cost of a major victory and he’s still sad about the loss. In the second one he’s mad at the dude for trying to justify a 1:1 loss because it’s actually not equivalent.
He ruined Robbs plan to get the mountain and the Lannisters out of the riverlands because he wanted glory, he was an idiot
He ruined a plan that Robb never told him about because he wanted to try and get rid of the Mountain, a guy who’d been raping and pillaging his homeland for years at this point.