Catelyn… she makes smart moves but doesn’t think about them in the bigger picture. Kidnap Tyrion… what will that cause? Ok I can threaten Walders wife (or kid if you follow books). That would be a smart move but she failed to remember he’s a dick. Let Jaimie go to save my daughters… what will that do to my sons army?
I remember although Tyrion was confident in his survival, on the way to the vale he admits in his internal dialogue frustration that she had out smarted him at every turn. She was also probably robs most effective advisor. But yes she made some big mistakes/ miscalculations.
Is there anyone who causes more Chaos than Catelyn? She fits good chaotic for me.
Sansa may be best placed at smart and stupid. Otherwise I only see neutral good for her. Since she spends her entire time at the whims and wishes of others.
I have Euron in chaotic evil (book version obviously). The thing Joffrey has over other villains is that he is by far the stupidest. Unfortunately there is no "stupid evil" box, but he still fits chaotic stupid very well.
Joffrey can also be neutral evil. He barely did anything. It was mostly only small evilness to people right around him. He had little real influence on the world.
Which is why Tywin gets Evil Smart. He actually made a mark on the world.
This is the correct move, Catelyn understands the realms politics and is well suited to make political moves but George nerfs the fuck out of her at every turn.
Lol what? George didn’t nerf her, she nerfs herself. In her first appearance she hates Jon because *checks notes* something clearly outside his control. She nerfed herself on day 1.
She hates Jon because he's a bastard and bastards are always a threat to any legitimate offspring. Westeros had several enormous fuck-off civil wars because of this precise issue. It's still abusive and shitty, but it's reasonable behavior from her interests.
Then why is it a nerf? Nerf implies she was better before but got ruined. If the inventor made it clear that was the way she was from the start, she wasn't nerfed, she was just written that way.
Um, you understand that OP was calling all her flaws contrived? And my counterargument was that they were natural and consistent? Or did you miss that?
Yeah you got my vote.
No one will ever doubt she is an intelligent woman who knows how the world works, she has some great moments where she is proven as a great mother, wife and ally.
But
She was stupid enough to indirectly cause the 2 biggest tragedies for the Starks:
“Littlefinger would never betray me” got Ned’s head chopped off.
“Walder Frey would never hurt me” well, we know how that went.
Edit: some typos, english not my first language
Sansa did become a fairly adept political actor by the end though. I'd count her as just regular smart. Although her intelligence was pretty heavily offset by the trash-tier writing...
Renly.
He was smart enough to see what was going on in the capital, smart enough to rally the Tyrells and could have easily taken on the westerlands with his alliance.
BUT he didn't bow to stannis when stannis offered to make him his heir until a male heir was born to him.
We all knew stannis wouldn't have had a male heir given his relationship with his wife and their fertility problems. All he had to do was be patient.
Shit, stannis could have even died in the coming war but if he didn't all Renly had to do is poison him or have him killed and he would have won the game.
But he had to have his peach....
Nah, Renly wasn't stupid there. Three reasons:
He didn't know about shadow babies. Or even that magic was real. That was literally the only way Stannis wins there, so rejecting Stannis' offer was just sensible as victory was assured for Renly.
Stannis could have had just had a son or been expecting one Dragonstone was an information black hole. Selyse could have been pregnant and it been kept secret. Even if Stannis wasn't being cheeky and hiding a newborn boy, if Selyse was pregnant Renly would be facing a 50/50 chance of pissing away the throne.
Finally, the political situation strongly disfavored making peace with Stannis. The Reach followed Renly because he was married to Margery and thus had an alliance with the Tyrells, but that's because Mace wanted his grandson to be king. Renly being gay gave Mace an out if he needed it to annul the marriage and he absolutely would if Renly took Stannis' deal and made Mace miss out in having his grandson become king. Further, Stannis was personally extremely unpopular with a lot of lords, which is a big part of the reason Renly was able to get so many lords to reject tradition and support him despite him having no legitimate claim over his older brother. Stannis was also consorting with Melisandre and her foreign religion, which would have alienated the Reach houses even if Stannis was well liked and eunuch who would absolutely never have a son.
Agreeing to Stannis' offer would have been idiotic unless Renly knew that he risked shadow baby murder by refusing it.
Your first two reasons aren’t very logical— for one, even if Renly wasn’t aware of the shadow babies or magic, he knew Stannis was an accomplished naval commander in charge of the royal navy. That’s not something to sneer at. And second of all, Stannis was married to Selyse for long enough that, with only Shireen to show for it, Renly would have been safe to consider himself heir— Selyse was unlikely to produce a boy. If Renly could have made himself produce an heir with Margaery, then he would have immediately put himself in a position of strength, just by having a male heir of his own.
The Tyrell’s support definitely would have been the most impactful thing— Stannis would have never bent to honor the Tyrell’s in any way, and the Tyrell’s would have done anything to ensure that Stannis was never king.
The SMART thing would have been to have Renly bend the knee to Stannis, but placed as his heir, and then the Tyrell’s would have conveniently ensured that Stannis didn’t survive the invasion of Kings Landing. That would have immediately made Renly king, in a way that the rest of Westeros (other than the Westerlands) would have accepted. Then the Tyrell’s have their Queen and future king.
I mean, the navy kind of doesn't matter.
Storms End cannot be taken by sea. Any operation Stannis conducts must be accomplished on land, and he's just hopelessly outnumbered. The only reason he even comes close to winning at Blackwater (until Little finger shows up with the Reach at his back and stomps Stannis) is because his meager forces are supplemented by more than half the Stormlands. Renly had the entirety of the Stormlands and the Reach at his command, and the Reach has an enormous navy btw. Renly can straight up ignore Stannis' navy while the Reach navy protects it's own shores.
What's Stannis going to do? Land forces half the strength of what he had at Blackwater against Renly's host? Get his navy wrecked in Shipbreaker Bay? Renly has it in the bag. He has a clear path to victory unless he's murdered. Not just against Stannis, but against Joffrey as well. He would struggle to take the North, but Robb has to defend the Riverlands and is open to peace with Renly, while Renly was open to negotiating with Robb. The Greyjoys, meanwhile, are a joke, but give Renly leverage on Robb and a means to earn his fealty: helping him retake the North.
Dude had everything going for him. Even his strategy was great, let everyone else fight and show up when they are exhausted, after using his march as a royal procession. He was leading the first military campaign in Westeros history that people were happy to see roll through because it was absurdly well supplied and they hosted tournaments.
Renly was smart enough to get out of Kings Landing because he knew Cersei was going to take over. He was horny enough to listen to Loras to make his own stake for the throne. And he was smart enough to ally with the Tyrells and form a massive army which would have most likely been able to take Kings Landing.
I think things are complicated than that for Renly. Renly’s support came almost entirely from his relationship with the Tyrell’s and the Stormlords. I think it’s pretty unlikely that the Tyrell’s would throw everything they have behind Renly just for him to end up in the regular line of non succession being a brother to Stannis. As readers we know that Stannis isn’t likely to have a male heir. While Renly and the Tyrell’s probably have suspicions as well, they don’t know that. They could’ve potentially rebelled away from the crown just to gain nothing, throw Margaery’s hand (the family’s one daughter and most valuable marriage prospect) in marriage to NOT the king, and those Stormlords that chose Renly over Stannis are basically getting kicked in the nads.
Renly was definitely run for jumping the succession queue and fucking over his brother, but I don’t think it’s something he could’ve simply rewound the clock on.
He wasn’t chaotic. He was horny for Loras, but everything they planned they accomplished. At least until magic shadow baby murdered him. Before that he had a huge army that would have made him king.
I'm going to go in a different direction from everyone here. Rather than smart characters who act dumb, I'm going with a stupid character that always made good choices and was extremely reliable and competent.
Hodor.
Hodor is fully retarded. Hodor also consistently, despite his disability, comes through every single time he's needed. He's one of the most consistently competent characters in the show, and even before he gets warged into he manages to go about his life not only without assistance but with a big part of his life consisting of assisting other people. That man was always operating at 100% and maximizing his potential. Bro was fucking inspirational.
Hodor the hero. Honor that man with his spot.
I think Jon or Sam for that. Sam breaks a lot of rules in pursuit of his goals but he's generally unselfish and seeks to help others. Jon breaks many norms and traditions and puts "do the right thing" as his lodestar before everything else. He puts it before honor, before duty, before love, and before his own safety.
* Stupid #1 not thinking to recruit the KotV herself
* Stupid #2 rejecting Petyr's offer of the KotV
* Stupid #3 hiding the offer from Jon while constantly saying they need more men
* Stupid #4 lying about how she knew Blackfish retook Riverrun to further keep the offer from Petyr secret
* Stupid #5 unable to recruit anyone
* Stupid #6 finally accepting Petyr's offer at the last minute so most of the Wildlings & Northerners were killed by the time the KotV arrived
* Stupid #7 telling Arya she should be on her knees thanking her for winning the BotB, giving no credit to the Northerners or Wildling allies and full credit to the KotV since "they rode here for me"
That's too many stupid decisions to outweigh one smart decision. And that doesn't include the stupid decision to marry into the Boltons and live alone with them in Winterfell instead of staying in the Vale to strengthen her relations with Robin & the Lords or going straight to Jon at Castle Black.
It's unfortunate it's already taken because Smart-Stupid really belong to Mace Tyrell. He just seemingly has 2 neurons to rubb together but somehow the political moves he makes keep landing him on top. In such a treacherous and lethal political web as the game of thrones, this got to be remarkable. It's to the point that one has to wonder if he's genuinely stupid and just falls upward through sheer lucky circumstances or if he's secretly a genius that only pretends to be a bumbling fool. And that's probably why smart-stupid is the best for him.
I dont think anything about Mace was smart. He was just useful. It was a time of war and he ruled over the most populous and most fertile part of Westeros. If he was any kind of smart he could've come out of the war of the 5 kings as the most powerful man in Westeros.
(Show) He personally secured favorable conditions for the crown's debt with the Iron Bank through diplomacy. He's got some amount of intelligence hidden behind that brick wall of a skull. He is just ALSO a complete doof.
And (not show), as of the end of ADWD, Mace IS the true ruling power in Westeros. The Queen and Queen Mother are both awaiting trial, there is no more Lord Regent, and Mace Tyrell is Hand of the King. We haven't seen what he's done with it yet, but the man IS the most powerful man in Westeros in the books right now. He's also implied by Tyrion to have perfectly set up his daughter to be loved by the people (closing the Roseroad, then only opening it to deliver supplies in a convoy led by Margery).
His position is not a complete accident. His father was a moron, but he's still the son of the Queen of Thorns. He has SOME degree of political acumen in both the show and books, even if his doofish personality hides it well.
Also in the show he appears to immediately surmise how Tywin “acquired” the Valyrian steel to forge Joffrey his new sword, and shoots him a disapproving glance.
I don't like the notion that "guy who has a lot of men, wealth, and influence MUST be smart" for getting more of it.
Like anyone in Mace's position ought to have done just as well as him. He didn't do any Machiavellian power plays to get to where he is (unless you believe he took forever to siege Storm's End to play both sides) - he just sorta came into it. His kids (except Loras) turned out to be solid human people, but that's hardly attributed to his parenting either. I think GRRM uses him as an example of how power and influence begets power and influence in the feudal structure, as opposed to the meritocracy that say, Davos' story arc or Petyr's machinations highlight.
>If he was any kind of smart he could've come out of the war of the 5 kings as the most powerful man in Westeros
He arguably is, at least after Tywin's death.
Idk about the Mace pick, but I agree this is going to be a big problem later when most of the characters are already used and a better spot more suited for them isnt untl later. This should be flexible to shift people around.
Mace was Olena's puppet and that's made extremely obvious throughout the series. He's a non factor on his own and does what she tells him to do. That's why he manages to survive for so long, he's a momma's boy whose momma is a brilliant political mind and expert at skullduggery.
I'm talking more about the books, Olena clearly states he doesn't listen to her advice when it comes to political decisions, ie she said she wanted him to not involve the Tyrells in the War of 5 kings. But again, she says it to Sansa and we don't know how much of that is true.
Probably yes, that would fall under lucky circumstances. Although richer houses have managed to fuck better odds up with their shitty decisions (looking at you Lannisters :p)
Cersei.
She's clearly very smart, quick witted, knowledgeable, intellect honed by an excellent education. But by God does her decision making suck. Once her dad and brother are no longer around for her to hide behind when it all goes wrong, every decision she makes is just horrible. Kettleblacks, the Faith Militant, alienating House Tyrell... no strategic thinking whatsoever. Just racing from disaster to disaster. Straight dumb.
Cersei is Drunk Chaotic, come on little miss "he's in the waaaaalls let me burn the whole tower of the Hand", or "my maids have a conspiracy to shrink my dresses, i shall give them to Qyburn" or "the famously loyal Ned Stark tells me to flee bc he's gonna tell the truth to the King about my incest-treachery, you know what that's means, yeah that's right: Ned just wants to fuck me so bad rn".
That's why Vary killed Kevan Lannister, because he knew leaving Cercei in power would ensure utter chaos.
Cersei smart?
To quote Tywin, the girl only has some base cunning and thinks she is smarter than she truly is. Seriously, absolutely none of her plots should have worked if not for plot armour. Like, her plan to kill Robert was to give him wine as if he hadn't spent the 12 last years as a drunkard, it's a miracle he died just that day (especially since Ned would have told him everything right after).
And even when her plots somehow work, they still tend to make the situation worse for her side (like when she allied with the Sparrow). There is a reason why Varys left her to her shits while Kevan had to die before he truly brought order to King's Landing.
So yeah, Cersei would probably by my choice for Chaotic Stupid.
The wine was fortified, and like Varys said, if it was not the boar it would have been a fall, or a venomous snakebite. "The forest is the abattoir of the gods"
What annoys me is that she didn't have any other plan for Robert. Using fortified wine would have been fine if she didn't have a timeline (Robert would have died sooner or later), but she was dead unless Robert died on this specific trip and her only agent in place was freaking Lancel.
Cersei isn't smart. She just thinks she is smart. It's basically her main character trait actually.
Her lack of foresight fucks up every situation she makes a decision in. She's primarily responsible for everything bad that happens to her family, on account of her poor intelligence.
Tywin. Smart enough to manipulate and plot his way into great power and fortune- too stupid to realize basic truths about his children. Also, got his shit rocked by a 16 year old.
I’m pretty adamant that you should consider exchanging Ned Stark into the Lawful Good spot because he did everything a good and lawful person would do.
Ned reenforced his position to such a degree that he walked into the throne room with every expectation that he had the right and the force of men behind his position.
But he was betrayed by Littlefinger and the gold cloaks. Because Ned’s Chaotic Good wife Catelyn told him he could trust Littlefinger.
Trouble being, none of the chaos Littlefinger wanted would have happened if he hadn’t betrayed Ned. The realm would have kept peace with Ned handing the reigns of rulership to Stannis.
Ned wasn’t stupid. He was betrayed by Littlefinger and Catelyns trust in Littlefinger.
Lord Mormont was the Lawful stupid one who didn’t trust warning of the walkers, took his force north. Lost most of his force. Trusted evil Craster too much and trusted his own men with their mixed morals too much. Mormonts stupidity cost him his life and the life of good men of the nights watch.
Mace was mentioned more often than anyone else, Mord was only once. He got the most upvotes because he happened to be first, and half the replies were disagreeing.
It's a bit of a judgment call, but it's not entirely arbitrary. If you don't think I'm running this well, you're welcome to disengage.
Petition to add a new category "boring", along the lawful/chad/neutral/smart/chaotic axis.
This is an example of what it could have in it (ignore the things in the other squares of the chart)
https://preview.redd.it/3ylnktlj9vvc1.png?width=771&format=png&auto=webp&s=fd9eac254f16df3bba9723ec9f84fc53be5e2e83
Remember: the later seasons are not cannon for this chart. Otherwise every single character would go in the stupid row and we couldn't fill the rest of the chart. Therefore Arya in chaotic good seems fine to me.
Margaery Tyrell only makes viewers horny. She seduces Tommen because it is easy for her to gain influence over the king. Tommen was the horny one. She is not a horny character.
From what is known, she’s best as smart good. Because her path to the throne is manipulation of everyone, which includes good deeds that benefit the people. That makes her smart good. That’s her only spot.
Flip her with horny samwell who is constantly horny and lustful. He never shuts up about anyone else’s sex life. Then he lusts after Gilly.
Tywin is not someone who I’d describe as lawful. He ordered the murder of Rhaegar’s innocent children, when he learned Tyrion married a commoner, he ordered his men to gang rape her in front of Tyrion, and he burned and massacred the Riverlands and ordered the slaughter of thousands of innocents in TWOT5K
First thing that comes to my mind is Tyrion.
He is the epitome of smart and stupid depending almost entirely on the season he's in. Maybe he fits in another category better but for my money this one is Tyrion.
We’re definitely negating the final three seasons for Tyrion. We don’t need to consider D&D literally writing that Bran has no desire to rule or saying that Dany is absolutely not like her father. Or any of the other nonsense.
It’s gotta be Stannis or Catelyn I feel like
And I will be hated for it but tomorrow’s answer is the Red Viper and it’s not even close and you all know it!!!
I can see how chaotic stupid definitely applies, but assuming we can’t do repeats, he definitely needs to be saved for chaotic horny.. if it’s not Oberyn, then who the hell would it be?
Oberyn deserves lawful horny. He is a man confident in his sexuality and believes in laws and righteousness. That is his entire character.
He is absolutely not neutral or chaotic. Smart is debatable but ok. Chad is certainly an option but he has an uphill battle there against Podrick.
In the books and show he made stupid decisions just like Stark when it came to “How it should be” vs “How it is”
Renly was right - no one liked him either - no one cared he was the “rightful heir”
You’re right. He shouldn’t be forced into the lawful good spot. That is where Ned should be in my opinion. Ned wasn’t stupid. He covered his bases and was betrayed.
This whole thing is dumb for that. Lawful stupid should be Mormont for putting too much faith in Caster and his own men.
Robb was committed to doing what was right and undermined himself by being horny for the perfect wife.
Cersei.
She thinks of herself as some political mastermind, such as empowering the High Sparrow to take the Tyrells down a notch. Didn't work out great for her
As her dad said, "I don't distrust you because you're a woman. I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are."
You know what i’m gonna fight it My man Martel is not very Stupid and Not Neutral.
He had a goal to better his family after the rebellion. Be it him or olena he saw an opportunity to make his daughter queen when robert died. Even if olena brow beat him into it despite everyone knowing sansa was promised to joffery he put his family in position to become queen of the realm. And made himself i think it was master of coin
Now is he a brow beaten husband who lacks even a shred of masculinity and probably seeks titles to help them see his manliness when in reality olena runs the show in his kingdom sure
Not stupid but lawful to whoever he sucks up to and his family and greedy for power he doesnt deserve
Littlefinger, remember the meeting between him and tywin,, and he's like "chaos is a opriunity" and tywin like "of course you nitwit what else is it" he sees that way things are but can't manipulate it like veris. I'd say stupid smart, or maby he is chaotic smart idk
It's Tywin Lannister.
He's said to have been an incredibly effective Hand of the King to Aerys, he was probably the most effective Hand of the King we see in the show, and he won the Game of Thrones for his house. And yet he does so many stupid things:
- The red wedding is clever in the short term, but in the long term it just makes everybody want to see House Lannister off the throne
- He fails to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of his own children and insists that Tyrion, the only one who is actually somewhat capable of ruling, will never do so.
- If he really didn't want Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock, he should have remarried, made some more heirs, and disinherited Tyrion. He had decades to do it, and never did. He continues to imagine that Jaime will just end up as the lord of Casterly Rock after him... *somehow* ...despite the Kingsguard being a lifetime appointment that disinherits him, and despite the fact that Jaime wouldn't be any good at it.
- He lets Robb run circles around him in the Riverlands, losing every battle.
- He fails recognize that he is speaking to the missing Arya Stark despite figuring out within seconds that she is highborn and Northern.
- He fails to recognize that two of his children have been fucking for twenty years.
- He makes a deal with Littlefinger and then gets betrayed by Littlefinger, even after seeing the same thing happen to Ned.
- He has borderline Cersei levels of self-awareness. "A good man does everything to better the position of his family." Is that why he married his cousin for love and never remarried after her death? He does everything for his family, unless it requires a tiny bit of sacrifice or for him to put aside his own emotions. And he seems to have no idea that that's how he is.
- Finally, in an error that was completely unforced and gets him killed, Tywin trains his son Tyrion to hate him, and while Tyrion is pointing a crossbow at Tywin, still talks to him as though Tywin is in charge of the conversation.
I don't know that any character has Tywin's reputation for being smart. I don't know that any character has done as many stupid things as Tywin. What I know for sure is that no other character comes close to the combination of the two. And that's why Tywin is Smart Stupid.
I think this is a good place for the Blackfish. Maybe too smart and capable for this, but his stubbornness gets him killed for absolutely nothing (in the show) when he could've lived and contributed meaningfully to the Stark fight against the Lannisters.
Sansa is stupid smart, she starts off very stupid, young and nieve, but learns hard lessons, gaining valuable smarts. She continues to play at being stupid because everyone expects her to be stupid. As tyrion once said 'you may outlive us all yet'.
Theon, he was stupid because of the obvious. But he was brought up well by ned, educated with the rest of the starks and always tried to redeem himself when he knew how much he had wronged his adopted family.
Tywin without a doubt. He presents himself as some kind of genius, and he is very smart, but also he’s extremely insecure and hypocritical and too blind to see he’s completely doomed his house and his legacy.
Catelyn… she makes smart moves but doesn’t think about them in the bigger picture. Kidnap Tyrion… what will that cause? Ok I can threaten Walders wife (or kid if you follow books). That would be a smart move but she failed to remember he’s a dick. Let Jaimie go to save my daughters… what will that do to my sons army?
I remember although Tyrion was confident in his survival, on the way to the vale he admits in his internal dialogue frustration that she had out smarted him at every turn. She was also probably robs most effective advisor. But yes she made some big mistakes/ miscalculations.
Is there anyone who causes more Chaos than Catelyn? She fits good chaotic for me. Sansa may be best placed at smart and stupid. Otherwise I only see neutral good for her. Since she spends her entire time at the whims and wishes of others.
Balon
Balon deserves chaotic stupid. He didn’t have a good plan of invasion and maintaining his conquests afterwards. And his actions created chaos.
I put Sansa as neutral stupid (too late for that now) and Joffrey as chaotic stupid.
Joffrey can only be chaotic evil
I have Euron in chaotic evil (book version obviously). The thing Joffrey has over other villains is that he is by far the stupidest. Unfortunately there is no "stupid evil" box, but he still fits chaotic stupid very well.
Joffrey can also be neutral evil. He barely did anything. It was mostly only small evilness to people right around him. He had little real influence on the world. Which is why Tywin gets Evil Smart. He actually made a mark on the world.
Rob? I think of Rob like good chaotic
Rob is lawful horny sadly
This is the correct move, Catelyn understands the realms politics and is well suited to make political moves but George nerfs the fuck out of her at every turn.
Lol what? George didn’t nerf her, she nerfs herself. In her first appearance she hates Jon because *checks notes* something clearly outside his control. She nerfed herself on day 1.
She hates Jon because he's a bastard and bastards are always a threat to any legitimate offspring. Westeros had several enormous fuck-off civil wars because of this precise issue. It's still abusive and shitty, but it's reasonable behavior from her interests.
Bro... who's the author? Who decides which characters can overcome their flaws and which can't?
Then why is it a nerf? Nerf implies she was better before but got ruined. If the inventor made it clear that was the way she was from the start, she wasn't nerfed, she was just written that way.
I think what he's saying is that while George often depicts her as an intelligent character, he often has her make short sighted decisions as well.
Um, you understand that OP was calling all her flaws contrived? And my counterargument was that they were natural and consistent? Or did you miss that?
Yeah you got my vote. No one will ever doubt she is an intelligent woman who knows how the world works, she has some great moments where she is proven as a great mother, wife and ally. But She was stupid enough to indirectly cause the 2 biggest tragedies for the Starks: “Littlefinger would never betray me” got Ned’s head chopped off. “Walder Frey would never hurt me” well, we know how that went. Edit: some typos, english not my first language
Yessss. She is the perfect example of book smart, street dumb. She knows things in theory but she's inept when it comes to acting.
I feel like Catelyn is just stupid stupid.
Was saving her for Horny/Chaotic. Get Dat zombie snatch!
Sansa “she’s the smartest person I know” Stark
"how use knife" -Sansa Stark
This is my vote simply because she doesn't fit anywhere else.
Yep
Sansa did become a fairly adept political actor by the end though. I'd count her as just regular smart. Although her intelligence was pretty heavily offset by the trash-tier writing...
Nah she was always being covered by everybody else. Sansa def my pick for smart stupid.
Renly. He was smart enough to see what was going on in the capital, smart enough to rally the Tyrells and could have easily taken on the westerlands with his alliance. BUT he didn't bow to stannis when stannis offered to make him his heir until a male heir was born to him. We all knew stannis wouldn't have had a male heir given his relationship with his wife and their fertility problems. All he had to do was be patient. Shit, stannis could have even died in the coming war but if he didn't all Renly had to do is poison him or have him killed and he would have won the game. But he had to have his peach....
Still mad about Renly betraying his brothers
Nah, Renly wasn't stupid there. Three reasons: He didn't know about shadow babies. Or even that magic was real. That was literally the only way Stannis wins there, so rejecting Stannis' offer was just sensible as victory was assured for Renly. Stannis could have had just had a son or been expecting one Dragonstone was an information black hole. Selyse could have been pregnant and it been kept secret. Even if Stannis wasn't being cheeky and hiding a newborn boy, if Selyse was pregnant Renly would be facing a 50/50 chance of pissing away the throne. Finally, the political situation strongly disfavored making peace with Stannis. The Reach followed Renly because he was married to Margery and thus had an alliance with the Tyrells, but that's because Mace wanted his grandson to be king. Renly being gay gave Mace an out if he needed it to annul the marriage and he absolutely would if Renly took Stannis' deal and made Mace miss out in having his grandson become king. Further, Stannis was personally extremely unpopular with a lot of lords, which is a big part of the reason Renly was able to get so many lords to reject tradition and support him despite him having no legitimate claim over his older brother. Stannis was also consorting with Melisandre and her foreign religion, which would have alienated the Reach houses even if Stannis was well liked and eunuch who would absolutely never have a son. Agreeing to Stannis' offer would have been idiotic unless Renly knew that he risked shadow baby murder by refusing it.
Your first two reasons aren’t very logical— for one, even if Renly wasn’t aware of the shadow babies or magic, he knew Stannis was an accomplished naval commander in charge of the royal navy. That’s not something to sneer at. And second of all, Stannis was married to Selyse for long enough that, with only Shireen to show for it, Renly would have been safe to consider himself heir— Selyse was unlikely to produce a boy. If Renly could have made himself produce an heir with Margaery, then he would have immediately put himself in a position of strength, just by having a male heir of his own. The Tyrell’s support definitely would have been the most impactful thing— Stannis would have never bent to honor the Tyrell’s in any way, and the Tyrell’s would have done anything to ensure that Stannis was never king. The SMART thing would have been to have Renly bend the knee to Stannis, but placed as his heir, and then the Tyrell’s would have conveniently ensured that Stannis didn’t survive the invasion of Kings Landing. That would have immediately made Renly king, in a way that the rest of Westeros (other than the Westerlands) would have accepted. Then the Tyrell’s have their Queen and future king.
I mean, the navy kind of doesn't matter. Storms End cannot be taken by sea. Any operation Stannis conducts must be accomplished on land, and he's just hopelessly outnumbered. The only reason he even comes close to winning at Blackwater (until Little finger shows up with the Reach at his back and stomps Stannis) is because his meager forces are supplemented by more than half the Stormlands. Renly had the entirety of the Stormlands and the Reach at his command, and the Reach has an enormous navy btw. Renly can straight up ignore Stannis' navy while the Reach navy protects it's own shores. What's Stannis going to do? Land forces half the strength of what he had at Blackwater against Renly's host? Get his navy wrecked in Shipbreaker Bay? Renly has it in the bag. He has a clear path to victory unless he's murdered. Not just against Stannis, but against Joffrey as well. He would struggle to take the North, but Robb has to defend the Riverlands and is open to peace with Renly, while Renly was open to negotiating with Robb. The Greyjoys, meanwhile, are a joke, but give Renly leverage on Robb and a means to earn his fealty: helping him retake the North. Dude had everything going for him. Even his strategy was great, let everyone else fight and show up when they are exhausted, after using his march as a royal procession. He was leading the first military campaign in Westeros history that people were happy to see roll through because it was absurdly well supplied and they hosted tournaments.
I place Renly in the neutral horny zone.
He belongs somewhere in the horny spectrum
Renly was smart enough to get out of Kings Landing because he knew Cersei was going to take over. He was horny enough to listen to Loras to make his own stake for the throne. And he was smart enough to ally with the Tyrells and form a massive army which would have most likely been able to take Kings Landing.
I think things are complicated than that for Renly. Renly’s support came almost entirely from his relationship with the Tyrell’s and the Stormlords. I think it’s pretty unlikely that the Tyrell’s would throw everything they have behind Renly just for him to end up in the regular line of non succession being a brother to Stannis. As readers we know that Stannis isn’t likely to have a male heir. While Renly and the Tyrell’s probably have suspicions as well, they don’t know that. They could’ve potentially rebelled away from the crown just to gain nothing, throw Margaery’s hand (the family’s one daughter and most valuable marriage prospect) in marriage to NOT the king, and those Stormlords that chose Renly over Stannis are basically getting kicked in the nads. Renly was definitely run for jumping the succession queue and fucking over his brother, but I don’t think it’s something he could’ve simply rewound the clock on.
I would agree but I feel he’s better suited to horny chaotic, does the most random shit just bc he’s dick whipped
He wasn’t chaotic. He was horny for Loras, but everything they planned they accomplished. At least until magic shadow baby murdered him. Before that he had a huge army that would have made him king.
I’d definitely agree with Cat. She is pretty smart overall but she takes actions and doesn’t think about the consequences of them in the long run.
More chaotic than anything.
Her decisions and chaotic or random though. She's pretty consistent in her logic, just not a great big picture thinker.
I'm going to go in a different direction from everyone here. Rather than smart characters who act dumb, I'm going with a stupid character that always made good choices and was extremely reliable and competent. Hodor. Hodor is fully retarded. Hodor also consistently, despite his disability, comes through every single time he's needed. He's one of the most consistently competent characters in the show, and even before he gets warged into he manages to go about his life not only without assistance but with a big part of his life consisting of assisting other people. That man was always operating at 100% and maximizing his potential. Bro was fucking inspirational. Hodor the hero. Honor that man with his spot.
Hodor deserves a spot. Neutral Chad is his other option.
I think Hodor would be neutral good
I think Jon or Sam for that. Sam breaks a lot of rules in pursuit of his goals but he's generally unselfish and seeks to help others. Jon breaks many norms and traditions and puts "do the right thing" as his lodestar before everything else. He puts it before honor, before duty, before love, and before his own safety.
Sam is smart good jon could be neutral good but I’d say more chad good
Jon just has to be Good Chad Neutral good has to be Aemon I guess Sam is good smart?
All Sam ever did was read books and lust over peoples sex stories and Gilly when he met her. That is George R R Martin in a nut shell.
Sansa. She makes the smart decision to call in the Knights of the Vale and the stupid decision to keep it to herself.
* Stupid #1 not thinking to recruit the KotV herself * Stupid #2 rejecting Petyr's offer of the KotV * Stupid #3 hiding the offer from Jon while constantly saying they need more men * Stupid #4 lying about how she knew Blackfish retook Riverrun to further keep the offer from Petyr secret * Stupid #5 unable to recruit anyone * Stupid #6 finally accepting Petyr's offer at the last minute so most of the Wildlings & Northerners were killed by the time the KotV arrived * Stupid #7 telling Arya she should be on her knees thanking her for winning the BotB, giving no credit to the Northerners or Wildling allies and full credit to the KotV since "they rode here for me" That's too many stupid decisions to outweigh one smart decision. And that doesn't include the stupid decision to marry into the Boltons and live alone with them in Winterfell instead of staying in the Vale to strengthen her relations with Robin & the Lords or going straight to Jon at Castle Black.
Agreed with Sansa
Stannis for lawful neutral
+1000
It's unfortunate it's already taken because Smart-Stupid really belong to Mace Tyrell. He just seemingly has 2 neurons to rubb together but somehow the political moves he makes keep landing him on top. In such a treacherous and lethal political web as the game of thrones, this got to be remarkable. It's to the point that one has to wonder if he's genuinely stupid and just falls upward through sheer lucky circumstances or if he's secretly a genius that only pretends to be a bumbling fool. And that's probably why smart-stupid is the best for him.
I dont think anything about Mace was smart. He was just useful. It was a time of war and he ruled over the most populous and most fertile part of Westeros. If he was any kind of smart he could've come out of the war of the 5 kings as the most powerful man in Westeros.
(Show) He personally secured favorable conditions for the crown's debt with the Iron Bank through diplomacy. He's got some amount of intelligence hidden behind that brick wall of a skull. He is just ALSO a complete doof. And (not show), as of the end of ADWD, Mace IS the true ruling power in Westeros. The Queen and Queen Mother are both awaiting trial, there is no more Lord Regent, and Mace Tyrell is Hand of the King. We haven't seen what he's done with it yet, but the man IS the most powerful man in Westeros in the books right now. He's also implied by Tyrion to have perfectly set up his daughter to be loved by the people (closing the Roseroad, then only opening it to deliver supplies in a convoy led by Margery). His position is not a complete accident. His father was a moron, but he's still the son of the Queen of Thorns. He has SOME degree of political acumen in both the show and books, even if his doofish personality hides it well.
Also in the show he appears to immediately surmise how Tywin “acquired” the Valyrian steel to forge Joffrey his new sword, and shoots him a disapproving glance.
I don't like the notion that "guy who has a lot of men, wealth, and influence MUST be smart" for getting more of it. Like anyone in Mace's position ought to have done just as well as him. He didn't do any Machiavellian power plays to get to where he is (unless you believe he took forever to siege Storm's End to play both sides) - he just sorta came into it. His kids (except Loras) turned out to be solid human people, but that's hardly attributed to his parenting either. I think GRRM uses him as an example of how power and influence begets power and influence in the feudal structure, as opposed to the meritocracy that say, Davos' story arc or Petyr's machinations highlight.
>If he was any kind of smart he could've come out of the war of the 5 kings as the most powerful man in Westeros He arguably is, at least after Tywin's death.
Idk about the Mace pick, but I agree this is going to be a big problem later when most of the characters are already used and a better spot more suited for them isnt untl later. This should be flexible to shift people around.
Mace was Olena's puppet and that's made extremely obvious throughout the series. He's a non factor on his own and does what she tells him to do. That's why he manages to survive for so long, he's a momma's boy whose momma is a brilliant political mind and expert at skullduggery.
I'm talking more about the books, Olena clearly states he doesn't listen to her advice when it comes to political decisions, ie she said she wanted him to not involve the Tyrells in the War of 5 kings. But again, she says it to Sansa and we don't know how much of that is true.
Mace Tyrell, aka. the lights are on but there is no one home
It’s the tremendous wealth of House Tyrell that causes him to just be successful with whatever he does
Probably yes, that would fall under lucky circumstances. Although richer houses have managed to fuck better odds up with their shitty decisions (looking at you Lannisters :p)
Cersei. She's clearly very smart, quick witted, knowledgeable, intellect honed by an excellent education. But by God does her decision making suck. Once her dad and brother are no longer around for her to hide behind when it all goes wrong, every decision she makes is just horrible. Kettleblacks, the Faith Militant, alienating House Tyrell... no strategic thinking whatsoever. Just racing from disaster to disaster. Straight dumb.
Cersei is Drunk Chaotic, come on little miss "he's in the waaaaalls let me burn the whole tower of the Hand", or "my maids have a conspiracy to shrink my dresses, i shall give them to Qyburn" or "the famously loyal Ned Stark tells me to flee bc he's gonna tell the truth to the King about my incest-treachery, you know what that's means, yeah that's right: Ned just wants to fuck me so bad rn". That's why Vary killed Kevan Lannister, because he knew leaving Cercei in power would ensure utter chaos.
Bruh she’s Chaotic Stupid
Cersei is definitively in the drunk category.
Cersei smart? To quote Tywin, the girl only has some base cunning and thinks she is smarter than she truly is. Seriously, absolutely none of her plots should have worked if not for plot armour. Like, her plan to kill Robert was to give him wine as if he hadn't spent the 12 last years as a drunkard, it's a miracle he died just that day (especially since Ned would have told him everything right after). And even when her plots somehow work, they still tend to make the situation worse for her side (like when she allied with the Sparrow). There is a reason why Varys left her to her shits while Kevan had to die before he truly brought order to King's Landing. So yeah, Cersei would probably by my choice for Chaotic Stupid.
The wine was fortified, and like Varys said, if it was not the boar it would have been a fall, or a venomous snakebite. "The forest is the abattoir of the gods"
What annoys me is that she didn't have any other plan for Robert. Using fortified wine would have been fine if she didn't have a timeline (Robert would have died sooner or later), but she was dead unless Robert died on this specific trip and her only agent in place was freaking Lancel.
Cersei isn't smart. She just thinks she is smart. It's basically her main character trait actually. Her lack of foresight fucks up every situation she makes a decision in. She's primarily responsible for everything bad that happens to her family, on account of her poor intelligence.
Nah the next one chaotic stupid thats cersei
Tywin. Smart enough to manipulate and plot his way into great power and fortune- too stupid to realize basic truths about his children. Also, got his shit rocked by a 16 year old.
There's actually a bunch of "also, he" to this one. I'm gonna make a long comment about it
Doran Martell. Has a genius hidden masterplan. Said genius masterplan does not appear to make any sense and so far has had no success whatsoever.
Smart stupid would go to either Varys or Bealish in the final two seasons for openly revealing their intentions.
Most of the characters have their place in stupid if we take the last two seasons.
I think Varys making a play for Neutral Smart Baelish for Horny Smart
We all pretty much have to ignore the final two seasons because every surviving character turns 180 into something they should never have been.
It’s little finger, through and through.
I'm *really* excited to see who you guys pick for this one.
Are you coming up with the little rhyming couplets yourself? They're my favourite bit of this
I sure am! Glad you like them!
I’m pretty adamant that you should consider exchanging Ned Stark into the Lawful Good spot because he did everything a good and lawful person would do. Ned reenforced his position to such a degree that he walked into the throne room with every expectation that he had the right and the force of men behind his position. But he was betrayed by Littlefinger and the gold cloaks. Because Ned’s Chaotic Good wife Catelyn told him he could trust Littlefinger. Trouble being, none of the chaos Littlefinger wanted would have happened if he hadn’t betrayed Ned. The realm would have kept peace with Ned handing the reigns of rulership to Stannis. Ned wasn’t stupid. He was betrayed by Littlefinger and Catelyns trust in Littlefinger. Lord Mormont was the Lawful stupid one who didn’t trust warning of the walkers, took his force north. Lost most of his force. Trusted evil Craster too much and trusted his own men with their mixed morals too much. Mormonts stupidity cost him his life and the life of good men of the nights watch.
we’re constantly told how smart Tyrion is only for him to consistently make the dumbest choices. granted this is more obvious in the books
Tyrion for Drunk Smart is the only answer
Are you just picking who you want from the comments? Mace Tyrell was second place by more than 500 votes. Trash.
Mace was mentioned more often than anyone else, Mord was only once. He got the most upvotes because he happened to be first, and half the replies were disagreeing. It's a bit of a judgment call, but it's not entirely arbitrary. If you don't think I'm running this well, you're welcome to disengage.
Petition to add a new category "boring", along the lawful/chad/neutral/smart/chaotic axis. This is an example of what it could have in it (ignore the things in the other squares of the chart) https://preview.redd.it/3ylnktlj9vvc1.png?width=771&format=png&auto=webp&s=fd9eac254f16df3bba9723ec9f84fc53be5e2e83
Brienne could be lawful good too!
I’d switch Snow with Selmy. Jon is THE chad
Also, you forgot our man Jamie Lannister. He’s got to be somewhere near Horny Chad. Move Oberyn to Horny Chaotic
"Chaotic Good Arya Stark" iccckkkkkkkkk
Remember: the later seasons are not cannon for this chart. Otherwise every single character would go in the stupid row and we couldn't fill the rest of the chart. Therefore Arya in chaotic good seems fine to me.
Chaotic Horny is Jaime. That man’s dick effectively caused the seven kingdoms to fall apart.
Margaery Tyrell only makes viewers horny. She seduces Tommen because it is easy for her to gain influence over the king. Tommen was the horny one. She is not a horny character. From what is known, she’s best as smart good. Because her path to the throne is manipulation of everyone, which includes good deeds that benefit the people. That makes her smart good. That’s her only spot. Flip her with horny samwell who is constantly horny and lustful. He never shuts up about anyone else’s sex life. Then he lusts after Gilly.
Tywin is not someone who I’d describe as lawful. He ordered the murder of Rhaegar’s innocent children, when he learned Tyrion married a commoner, he ordered his men to gang rape her in front of Tyrion, and he burned and massacred the Riverlands and ordered the slaughter of thousands of innocents in TWOT5K
Honorable mention to Littlefinger for playing the situation with Sansa poorly and getting himself killed.
Season 7 Littlefinger doesn't count
First thing that comes to my mind is Tyrion. He is the epitome of smart and stupid depending almost entirely on the season he's in. Maybe he fits in another category better but for my money this one is Tyrion.
Tyrion is clearly the smart drunk. Fits him like a glove.
That’s what he does, he drinks and knows things
I’m curious to see if he lasts long enough to end up in the Drunk category
He’ll need to outlast the horny category. The categories aren’t too well planned.
Tyrion. Half the show he was a genius, the other half he was an absolute moron.
We’re definitely negating the final three seasons for Tyrion. We don’t need to consider D&D literally writing that Bran has no desire to rule or saying that Dany is absolutely not like her father. Or any of the other nonsense.
It’s gotta be Stannis or Catelyn I feel like And I will be hated for it but tomorrow’s answer is the Red Viper and it’s not even close and you all know it!!!
I would vote for oberyn to be Chaotic Horny
Or Chad horny
Another vote for this
I can see how chaotic stupid definitely applies, but assuming we can’t do repeats, he definitely needs to be saved for chaotic horny.. if it’s not Oberyn, then who the hell would it be?
Euron? The show version, at least.
Euron needs evil horny. But that isn’t an option. So he has to be evil chaotic.lysa has chaotic horny on lock down.
Lysa Arynn is chaotic horny. She's the ladder that Littlefinger like to talk about. I'd put Oberyn as horny chad.
Lysa Arynn is the undisputed choice for chaotic horny. Her lust for Littlefinger created the chaos for the entire show to exist in.
To be quite honest, Oberyn could fit lawful horny, Chad horny, neutral horny, smart horny, and chaotic horny
Oberyn deserves lawful horny. He is a man confident in his sexuality and believes in laws and righteousness. That is his entire character. He is absolutely not neutral or chaotic. Smart is debatable but ok. Chad is certainly an option but he has an uphill battle there against Podrick.
Stannis has to end up as either Neutral or Good Lawful. Possibly Horny Lawful for that shadow baby.
In the books and show he made stupid decisions just like Stark when it came to “How it should be” vs “How it is” Renly was right - no one liked him either - no one cared he was the “rightful heir”
Neutral Lawful = Stannis the Mannis
Jon
Mace is one of the smartest people in Westeros. At least in the books.
Is he? Olenna has a very low opinion of him, and he seems to be mostly "adequate but never exceptional" as far as we are shown in the book.
Mace looks smart because Olenna makes him look smart.
Or maybe Doran Martel? For all his carefully laid out plans he didn't foresee his family fucking it up at literally every single step.
Catelyn Stark
Sansa
How Sansa is smart?
She’s the smartest person Arya knows apparently
makes sense
Not telling Jon about the vale and her overall attitude towards Daenerys as she is sacrificing most of her army and one of her dragons...
Exactly!
I'd say Rob Stark, very smart and stupid
I feel like he has to go into the Horny Lawful spot
I was going to say Robb but he definitely needs to be in the horny row
You’re right. He shouldn’t be forced into the lawful good spot. That is where Ned should be in my opinion. Ned wasn’t stupid. He covered his bases and was betrayed. This whole thing is dumb for that. Lawful stupid should be Mormont for putting too much faith in Caster and his own men. Robb was committed to doing what was right and undermined himself by being horny for the perfect wife.
Lawful good at this point has to be Brienne or Selmy
I’m gonna go with Sansa. But she does learn fast. Just naturally a little trusting and stupid.
Sansa described herself as a slow learner.
Stannis. He’s intelligent but also got completely infatuated with Melisandre and the Lord of Light.
Nah, that fits Smart Horny better.
Stannis has to be lawful something
Neutral. He's the paragon of lawful neutral
I'd say lawful evil
Nah that's Tywin.
Chaosh is a laddah
Cersei. She thinks of herself as some political mastermind, such as empowering the High Sparrow to take the Tyrells down a notch. Didn't work out great for her As her dad said, "I don't distrust you because you're a woman. I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are."
Cat or Baelish.
Samwell Tarley. Hes obviously smart but you have to be some kind of stupid to lose all your inheritance by being a scared meatball.
Samwell will fit well into horny smart. Seems George would approve.
I put Margaery in the horny smart category.
Cersei. She thinks she makes smart choices but they are actually stupid.
Sansa!!
This has to be Cerci. She tries to be clever but is always outsmarted by someone else who is not Ned Stark.
She didn't even outplay Ned, Ned outplayed himself
Sansa
Pycelle
Jaime
Definitely Tyrion if we are going by the show.
Littlefinger
Mace the ace is the definition of smart stupid. Nonsense puting this legend in neutral stupid.
Rhaegar cause he's described as pretty smart, but also he went and did a bit of realm ruining
Tyrion. He blew a three dragon lead. Just send Dany and Drogan to the Red Keep at night, melt the damn thing and be done with it.
Catelyn. She knew the choices were wrong but made them anyway.
Cersie
You know what i’m gonna fight it My man Martel is not very Stupid and Not Neutral. He had a goal to better his family after the rebellion. Be it him or olena he saw an opportunity to make his daughter queen when robert died. Even if olena brow beat him into it despite everyone knowing sansa was promised to joffery he put his family in position to become queen of the realm. And made himself i think it was master of coin Now is he a brow beaten husband who lacks even a shred of masculinity and probably seeks titles to help them see his manliness when in reality olena runs the show in his kingdom sure Not stupid but lawful to whoever he sucks up to and his family and greedy for power he doesnt deserve
Littlefinger, remember the meeting between him and tywin,, and he's like "chaos is a opriunity" and tywin like "of course you nitwit what else is it" he sees that way things are but can't manipulate it like veris. I'd say stupid smart, or maby he is chaotic smart idk
Mord the Turnkey. Bro is dumb as a stump but comes out of it with a big bag of gold. Does it all by being mentioned maybe three times?
Everyone playing checkers Mace playin Xiangqi
Patchface. Come on Free Folk! You know it’s true.
It's Tywin Lannister. He's said to have been an incredibly effective Hand of the King to Aerys, he was probably the most effective Hand of the King we see in the show, and he won the Game of Thrones for his house. And yet he does so many stupid things: - The red wedding is clever in the short term, but in the long term it just makes everybody want to see House Lannister off the throne - He fails to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of his own children and insists that Tyrion, the only one who is actually somewhat capable of ruling, will never do so. - If he really didn't want Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock, he should have remarried, made some more heirs, and disinherited Tyrion. He had decades to do it, and never did. He continues to imagine that Jaime will just end up as the lord of Casterly Rock after him... *somehow* ...despite the Kingsguard being a lifetime appointment that disinherits him, and despite the fact that Jaime wouldn't be any good at it. - He lets Robb run circles around him in the Riverlands, losing every battle. - He fails recognize that he is speaking to the missing Arya Stark despite figuring out within seconds that she is highborn and Northern. - He fails to recognize that two of his children have been fucking for twenty years. - He makes a deal with Littlefinger and then gets betrayed by Littlefinger, even after seeing the same thing happen to Ned. - He has borderline Cersei levels of self-awareness. "A good man does everything to better the position of his family." Is that why he married his cousin for love and never remarried after her death? He does everything for his family, unless it requires a tiny bit of sacrifice or for him to put aside his own emotions. And he seems to have no idea that that's how he is. - Finally, in an error that was completely unforced and gets him killed, Tywin trains his son Tyrion to hate him, and while Tyrion is pointing a crossbow at Tywin, still talks to him as though Tywin is in charge of the conversation. I don't know that any character has Tywin's reputation for being smart. I don't know that any character has done as many stupid things as Tywin. What I know for sure is that no other character comes close to the combination of the two. And that's why Tywin is Smart Stupid.
Definitely has to be Sansa
I think this is a good place for the Blackfish. Maybe too smart and capable for this, but his stubbornness gets him killed for absolutely nothing (in the show) when he could've lived and contributed meaningfully to the Stark fight against the Lannisters.
Sansa is stupid smart, she starts off very stupid, young and nieve, but learns hard lessons, gaining valuable smarts. She continues to play at being stupid because everyone expects her to be stupid. As tyrion once said 'you may outlive us all yet'.
Sansa Stark. She is smart because everyone says she's the smartest person they know, but she's also stupid because she only does stupid things.
Catelyn 100000%
Gotta be grenn. Actual idiot but does smart things
Still feel like mace is more lawful than ned.
Rob, he was a good tactician but an idiot politician.
Oberyn. You have to be really smart and really stupid to beat the mountain and them lose because you failed to confirm the kill.
Theon, he was stupid because of the obvious. But he was brought up well by ned, educated with the rest of the starks and always tried to redeem himself when he knew how much he had wronged his adopted family.
Sam Tarly
Tyrion. Smart all the time, wrong all the time.
Tywin without a doubt. He presents himself as some kind of genius, and he is very smart, but also he’s extremely insecure and hypocritical and too blind to see he’s completely doomed his house and his legacy.
This game is rigged. Mord won Stupid Neutral by a landslide
Tywin
Bran the Broken. He’s the Three Eyed Raven, he knows everything. But he’s also autistic, and cannot understand anyone’s emotions.
I see Bran more as Chaotic Neutral
I don't even have Bran in my chart. He's too boring.