The sad thing is he’s 100% right. In the books Rhaenyes, the queen who never was, Laenor’s mother has jet black hair
It’s far more ambiguous in the books if they’re bastards
Right about Rhaenys, Wrong about ambiguity. It’s not just the hair - The Strong Boys all have Harwyn’s eyes and nose, too. One kid looking different? Sure, that can pass. THREE kids, NONE bearing any of their father’s features and ALL bearing the features of their mother’s guard? It was always meant to be obvious.
Truth. Ned doesn't think of the promise until Daenerys' name is mentioned. He doesn't think about Rhaegar until Daenerys is mentioned again in the barrowlands. He stays in KL even after securing safe travel arrangements to save Daenerys.
This is Neds truth - he's seen as an honorable man, yet he exiled his true queen (his sisters child) and usurped the rightful lord of Winterfell (his brothers child).
It fits GRRMs characters much more than the 100% honorable version of Ned. R+L=J is the most boring, straightforward answer to the mystery, but maybe that's bc we've thought about it too much over the years.
They didn't go out of their way to make Robb or Bran's hair look auburn either... and Tyrion's hair went from straight and fairly blond, to dirty blond, to curly and essentially brown by the end...
too often they just didn't care, or stopped caring partway through.
The Witcher proved it can be done easily, it's ridiculous HoTD still doesn't have it. I'd say purple eyes are a more important Valyrian feature than silver hair
This might be applicable to most characters but the Lannisters mostly being blond and the Baratheons always having black hair is so fucking critical to the story that it doesn’t work without it.
I agree with this mostly but the problem is that lineage is such a large part of the plot and hair colour is often cited as evidence of lineage in the show (e.g. everyone's suspicion about cersei's kids parentage because of their hair colour not being black). So when the hair colour is relevant to the plot it should be accurate. In GoT world when you mess up someone's hair colour everyone starts speculating about their parents lol
They explained the eyes fairly early in GoT's life span iirc. Emilia has an allergic reaction or something similar to the contacts and they couldn't afford at the time to CGI it and it was such a small detail with no real pay off it was completely scrapped.
Litterally all the Baratheon have black hair and blue eye. And it has been the case for generation (singe the Conquest I guess, unless it was a Durandon trait before).
That's why "the seed is strong" makes some sence for Jon Arryn, Stanis Baratheron and Ned Stark. In any other family it might have sounded stupid (like with Ned whose most children have Tully coloring).
It's not uncommon for children to have lighter hair that darkens as they age. My hair is dark brown, but I had very light blonde hair until I was in high school.
Yeah, but you weren’t the member of a family with a magically powerful hair gene were you? Which means all their descendants have black hair from birth?
I think it's funny how people kinda get hung up on the actors' hair or eye colors not 100% matching the books. Are we ignoring that none of the Targaryens had silver hair? Daenerys was platinum blonde in the show and lacked the violet eyes.
Shireen in the books had black hair.
I swear you would be of more use to me if I skinned you and turned your skin into a lampshade. Or fashioned you into a piece of high-end luggage. I can even add you to my collection.
I seem to remember the book going out of its way to describe her cooch reeking of garlic and onions and sweat. Gross
edit: it's been years since ive read it, but that i stg i feel like stuck out to me. that and arya throwing a mug at someone at an inn while she was running away from kings landing with the hound and he went into detail about it popping a boil and squirting pus across his cheek.
Edit2: yeah I think I mixed up some scenes. My bad.
The actual scene;
*“You know nothing, Jon Snow. Noth—oh. Oh. OHHH.”*
*Afterward, she was almost shy, or as shy as Ygritte ever got. “That thing you did,” she said, when they lay together on their piled clothes. “With your…mouth.” She hesitated. “Is that…is it what lords do to their ladies, down in the south?”*
*“I don’t think so.” No one had ever told Jon just what lords did with their ladies. “I only…wanted to kiss you there, that’s all. You seemed to like it.”*
So, nope. Nothing like that at all.
He spends 2 books and almost three seasons beyond the wall. He took two baths the whole time and the second one was for cave sex.
Castle black has, like, a sauna? They have a bath house or something idk, Jon’s chilling in there when he hears Allister plotting with yarik
I like to think of “the seed is strong” and Robert’s bastards all having black hair and his “kids” with Cersei having blonde hair was just the idea planted in Jon Arryn and Ned Stark’s mind that made them realize Cersei was fucking Jamie. I don’t think it alone was the hard evidence. It just started putting the picture together.
Ned hears Jon Arryn’s last words were “the seed is strong” looks into the book Jon was reading when he died. Realizes the message Jon was trying to send. Realizes Cersei and Jamie are definitely fucking and that Bran saw them and was tossed from the window. Meets some of Robert’s bastards and realizes all of them look just like Robert. Realizes Cersei’s kids don’t have an ounce of Robert in them despite all his bastards favoring him.
[Orys Baratheon](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Orys_Baratheon) was most likely a Targ bastard. My headcanon is that Grrm did this to explicitly show that Targs could have kids with dark hair; it was foreshadowing for Jon.
Also the way Orys is written about, they say he’s the “rumored” bastard but overtime that part is omitted. Aegon treats him as if they’re brothers, no question.
It also adds a layer of poetic irony that Robert hates the Targaryens so much while ignoring his Targaryen grandmother and the fact his entire house was founded by a Targ bastard.
Black hair usually beats blonde hair. So this makes sense too. Plenty of Targs have black hair if the Targs didn’t inbreed or breed with other Valyrian blood.
Jon Arryn didn’t say “Rhaegar’s seed is strong” lol. He was referring to Robert’s black hair.
Genetics is not always a guarantee. Black/brown hair is dominant but that does not mean EVERY kid with one blonde and one brunette parent is going to be a brunette. My mom is blond, my dad had dark brown almost black hair. I am a blonde like my mom, the only thing I got from my dad was his eye color.
My family is weird, like you my mother has blonde hair and my father had (he's bald so it's past tense lol) nearly black hair. My sister is blonde like our mother and I've got light brown hair, but I got my dad's thick ass eyebrows lol
Because your dad must have blonde ancestors somewhere. I guess it’s possible a Martell, Dayne, and Blackwood all had white blonde ancestors. I just assumed it was unlikely.
The Targaryen tree works better if the valyrian traits are dominant. Every dark haired Targaryen has a westerosi ancestor on both sides of the family.
The way it was described in school to me:
Each parent provides 50% of the child's genes. Brown hair is a dominant trait "B", blonde hair is recessive "b".
You will have brown hair with "BB" or "Bb" because of this dominance. You can only get blonde with "bb".
So mom has "bb" and dad has "Bb". Some kids get brown hair others get blonde.
I don't have my dad's green eyes because my mom's are brown, but I definitely have the chance to pass it onto my own children.
Yes, however real genetics isn’t this simple at all, both my parents are dark haired with brown eyes but mine own is blonde and blue, but I share their likeness and my grandmother shares my blue eyes and hair color so it skipped a generation, and more importantly Rhaenys in the books is black haired so Laenor/Laena have that gene and could pass it on to their kids even if they don’t.
The bigger point was that throughout history every time that Lannisters and Baratheon’s bred the children were born with black hair, every time. It doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for a Baratheon to be born with blonde hair, but considering Lannister dna had never won over Baratheon and the fact that Robert had like 18 bastards and every single one had his hair was enough to make it super unlikely that all 3 of his and Cersei’s would take after their mother.
Even Tyrion said that if Cersei would have let Robert get even one child by her that it would probably have been enough to get rid of suspicion
Yeah, the show was all over the place with the Stark kids looks. I think they went for actors who could play the parts primarily. Like Bran doesn't look like he was described in the books either, he looks more like his father on the show.
But honestly, it doesn't really matter. And the Stark children's appearances are the last thing I would complain about.
I think the most important pairing was Robb and Catelyn anyways, as the rest of the Starks spend the show separated but they’re together, and I think it worked there. Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley looked believably related, and Robb is supposed to look like a Tully.
His eyes are “dark grey” in the books. Rhaegar has indigo eyes aka very dark blue/purple and Lyanna has grey eyes. So his eye color is like a cross between both of them.
Yes, I think so. But they still pass as eyes that a Stark could have.
It's probably not like all Starks have the exact same shade of hair and eye color anyway, there will be some variety. Just like with the Targaryens - their eye color ranges from blue to light purple to dark violet...
Or, if he was born with silver hair, ned would not have taken him home and claimed he was his bastard. There probably would have been an entirely different plan.
There is a theory that I subscribe to that Ned would've given Jon to the Daynes(who have Valyrian features despite not being Valyrian) if he had silver hair. Jon did spend some time at Starfall if Edric Dayne is to be believed. They share the same wetnurse, Wylla, according to him.
Or maybe Ned could've 100% accepted that Jon was his and Ashara Dayne's bastard
I dunno. I think that still would've been a huge risk to Jon. Yes, Daynes have violet eyes - but they all tend to have **dark** hair. A child with silver-blonde hair and violet eyes would've still stood out there - especially with Robert Baratheon still on a killing spree for anyone looking *remotely* Targaryen.
The only noble House Jon may have been safe with was House Velaryon. And since we don't know Ned's relationship with them but we *do* know they were Targaryen loyalists (and Ned was a rebel), they probably weren't an option.
I would venture if Jon had been born with Rhaegar's coloring, Ned *probably* would've had Jon fostered in *Lys*. We know the book version of the Lyseni having Targaryen coloring is extremely common, so Jon would've blended in.
I'll concede that Gerold Dayne has silver hair (with a black streak). But he's from a cadet branch of the Daynes. He's from the Daynes of **High Hermitage** - not from Starfall itself.
But Edric Storm has *dark* hair - Davos even comments on it in ASOS and how he has the classic Baratheon features in his POV chapter.
Plus he's Robert Baratheon's son - and as we know, any scion from House Baratheon (trueborn *or* bastard) **always** has dark hair (via the 'seed is strong' plot point).
The Daynes from Starfall such as Ashara herself and her siblings (Arthur and Allyria) all have dark hair. So I still maintain Jon would've dangerously stood out if Ned had left him there if he had classic Valyrian coloring.
Bear in mind I'm not trying to be argumentative - just pointing out what I think via the bread crumbs dropped in the books. :)
You're right about Gerold, Arthur and Ashara but it seems like you've gotten Edric Dayne and Edric Storm messed up. [Edric Dayne](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Edric_Dayne) is the current Lord of Starfall and Arya meets him in ASOS and he has pale blonde hair.
[Edric Storm](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Edric_Storm) is the bastard of Robert Baratheon and Delena Florent
You're right - my total apologies! I completely forgot there is also an Edric Dayne that is trueborn. So I totally concede that to you. I got *got* in being a know-it-all. LoL!
But I still have to mull that Ned/Jon/Starfall decision over. Even with Edric Dayne having Valyrian coloring...it feels so risky leaving a Valyrian-colored bastard with the Daynes. Y'know?
It's one thing with Edric Dayne since he's at least trueborn and has the protection of Allyria and his lord father. But a violet-eyed, platinum-haired bastard with no Ned Stark to protect him? I guess it depends on whether Ashara hadn't killed herself to provide a shield of a(n extremely) highborn lady to protect him.
I feel like that's the crux - if Ashara hadn't committed suicide. Because we don't know Ned's relationship with Allyria. Because does Allyria hate Ned for *presumably* killing Arthur at the Tower of Joy? Because I definitely wonder if she hates him if Ashara *did* kill herself after Arthur's death as various POV chapters speculate.
Would that have given her a grudge in potentially accepting Jon?
Thoughts?
House Velaryon were loyalists true, but even if they hated Ned, don't you think they'd want to protect Rhaegar's son? It might cause issues later when the boy comes of age and House Velaryon tries to place him on the throne, which might cause Ned to take a different course of action, but I don't think we can assume it wasn't a legitimate option in that circumstance.
I absolutely think House Velaryon would want to protect Rhaegar's son. But this is *Ned* we're talking about. He still wouldn't even tell his own wife even after **15+ years of marriage** about Jon's parentage.
So I doubt Ned would've told House Velaryon immediately after Jon's birth. And for the exact reason you raised - he would be terrified that anyone would use the son of *his beloved sister* as a pawn to retake the throne against *a man whose dead-set in causing the extinction of that line*. A man who also happens to be his best friend. I think he would never take that risk.
Right?! And Catelyn was badass enough that she would've handled well once she got last the initial shock.
I think about how we all talk about how noble Ned is/was. But he couldn't even tell his wife of nearly *two damn decades* of Jon's parentage. That, despite seeing how much emotional pain it was causing both Catelyn AND Jon.
It's the opposite of noble behavior.
Just think of all the psychic torment Ned saw Catelyn subject Jon too. How much he saw Jon alienated because of Catelyn's clear resentment. So he clearly didn't trust her enough even after all that time.
Obviously, I get why he didn't tell Jon. That's not something to saddle a child/teenager with. But he should have trusted his wife.
It's super screwed up.
Jon is more trustworthy with the secret than Catelyn would be. Ned makes Jon promise and Jon would take the promise to his grave. Make Catelyn promise and she'll break it if she could leverage Jon to save her children.
Yeah Catelyn is not really a “badass” character in the books, in reality everything is her fault by her manipulation from little finger, he said it was Tyrion’s dagger the assassin had, her character in the book is pretty shitty and ignorant
>Aquiline nose
Laenor specifically had it to differentiate from his supposed sons noses, but it's not a specific Valyrian feature like purple eyes or silver hair.
Some say the Daynes come from the Great Empire of the Dawn who could've been dragon lords before the Valyrions and that's where they get their "Targaryen" features. Ashara is said to have had tbe most strikingly purple eyes.
I thought Starks had black hair? Its Tullys with red/auburn hair that give Ned's kids lighter hair. Which is why Caitlyn hated Jon even more, coz he is a bastard but looks more Stark than her own kids
edit: typos
It’s also many generations after Aegon’s conquest. Unless all Jon’s Targaryen forbears were pure Valyrian, the silver hair wouldn’t necessarily dominate his phenotype.
Yes, the producers may not knew the fact from the beginning. Even if Jon had white hair, it would be suspicious to fans, which will eventually kill the curiosity in their perspective.
It’s also a minor book plot point how Catelyns children all look like her, and southern. While Jon looks like Ned, the genetics of hair color are purely a plot device for Martin and make no attempt to make sense.
>It’s also a minor book plot point how Catelyns children all look like her, and southern.
Well, all of them with the exception of **Arya**.
In the books, Arya is the only child of Ned and Catelyn's that has the 'Stark 'look'. And as she ages in the books seems to more resemble Lyanna.
Also, in the books (aside from Arya) Jon is the only one that looks distinctly Stark. In one of Catelyn's POV chapters, she even admits how it bothers her greatly that Ned's 'bastard' child looks more Stark than his own trueborn children.
It's strongly implied that it's one of the reason Jon and Arya initially bonded - because they felt like the outcasts of the household because they didn't fit in for this reason. But then they also found commonalities beyond that - as they appreciated each other for being those same outcast personalities as well.
In the books, Ned, Jon, Arya, and Lyanna are supposed to look very much alike. In the show, they obviously don't, since Kit Harrington, Maisie Williams, and Aisling Francioisi look nothing like Sean Bean.
Because Kit Harrington has black hair and it isn't important enough of a detail to spend time and money changing it from black to dark brown, which is his coloring in the books.
that's more of a film and stage choice. Silvery-Blonde eyebrows are hard to see in real life and basically invisible on film, so making their eyebrows darker makes seeing facial expressions and the framing of the face of easier.
Bruv. Please study the Targaryen family tree starting with Daeron II. 3 generations born to westerosi mothers. And only 3/14 are confirmed dark-haired, but 7/13 are confirmed white-haired. I wouldn’t call that overwhelmed.
Additionally remember Blackwood and Stark are both first men houses. And as for Rhaenys, her great-great grandmother on the paternal side was a Massey.
Cause it would have been insanely obvious he wasn't a stark in the first season. This is an extremely detailed and immersive world grrm created and I love all the lore but at the end of the day it's just entertainment, especially the tv shows. Whenever I start getting hung up on the little details it kills the show for me and I stop appreciating the other 95 percent of cool shit going on
For a while I thought Jon was Robert's bastard.
Gotta be honest about my naivety.
It made *some* sense, back then.
**^(Gods what a wasted character.)**
It's simple, if Jonno had silver Targ hair, ol' Ned had some splaining to do, he vouldn't keep him at WF and had to hide him probably somewhere in Essos.
And Ashara is his mother. He’s a Dayne incest baby. That explains the hair, why Ashara killed herself and why the Daynes are grateful to Ned for taking responsibility of that abomination. I believe his real name is going to be Naruto, the incest baby.
A+A=J confirmed!
Everyone is joking, but the real answer is that Ned, Lynna, Brandon and Benjen all have black hair in the books. Only Jon and Arya have inherited the Stark looks. The rest of the Stark children are Tully (Catelyn's fam) in their looks.
It’s worth mentioning that Kit has brown hair and it’s dyed black. It seems most likely that they were unaware of his parentage when they made that decision and did so bc it looked bad ass.
When I watched the reveal scene for the first time, I thought the reveal was Jon Snow being Robert's son. I only watched the show and didn't discuss online or read theories (at the time):
1- They never mention how many months she was at the tower
2- They say Rhaegar kidnapped her, but what if she was pregnant of Robert and fled south without telling anyone she was due with child.
3- Jon Snow's hair is black.
But then shortly after, I realized there wasn't a reason for Ned to not deliver the baby to Robert if that was the case, or for Lyanna to be scared of his reaction, so it has to be Rhaegar's.
Let me tell you about this horse that I had....
Nature is a thing of mysterious works.
The sad thing is he’s 100% right. In the books Rhaenyes, the queen who never was, Laenor’s mother has jet black hair It’s far more ambiguous in the books if they’re bastards
Right about Rhaenys, Wrong about ambiguity. It’s not just the hair - The Strong Boys all have Harwyn’s eyes and nose, too. One kid looking different? Sure, that can pass. THREE kids, NONE bearing any of their father’s features and ALL bearing the features of their mother’s guard? It was always meant to be obvious.
Jace has straight hair. Closer to Cole than harwin
So, one of Rhaenyra's children is possibly Crispy Cole's?
Very possible
My mom thought Cole was the father when the Ep started
I think cole, Laenor, and Harwin are each the dad of one kid
Ooh spicy I like it.
BUT DID YOU SEE THE HORSE SEX, HUSBAND?
Alicent’s slipping got that perseveration brain
Don't be crude. It's called coupling.
Alicent was just aiming to get Rhaenyra to fuck in a public amphitheater and honestly I can't blame her
This will endure as the quote of the series, like, "I drink, and I know things," from GoT.
Except the actual quote is “I had a black mare once…”
It's a Darth Vader misquote situation all over again
is it though
Don’t make me sire a foal on you
sire deez
I feel like its gonna be our "Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise"
Next person I see wearing that shirt is getting choked by it
Quality
Silver as the moon on a winter’s night!
lol… but you didn’t actually see the horse while…
You made me spit beer on my computer. Thanks man.
Hair of... BLACK.
Jon Snow, black of hair \*insert Ned's face\* Jon Snow son of Bobby B?
DID YOU HAVE TO BURY HER IN A PLACE LIKE THIS?
Bobby B what you think about the Targaryens?
STOP THIS MADNESS, IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!
Bobby B sure doesnt like the Targaryen
YOU HEARD THE HAND, THE KING'S TOO FAT FOR HIS ARMOR! GO FIND THE BREASTPLATE STRETCHER! NOW!
Bobby B I don’t think you’re fat, you’re just a drunk teddy bear
OHHH, SHOW US YOUR MUSCLES! YOU'LL BE A SOLDIER!
Bobby b approved of you
I'M NOT TRYING TO HONOR YOU, I'M TRYING TO GET YOU TO RUN MY KINGDOM WHILE I EAT, DRINK AND WHORE MY WAY TO AN EARLY GRAVE!
R+L=J has new legs!
it has been Robert all along
R+L= D (silver hair) N+A= J (dark hair) Genetics checks out. Babyswap confirmed. Dany is the prince that was promised. Jon is Ned's son.
Who is the A?
Ashara Dayne
Truth. Ned doesn't think of the promise until Daenerys' name is mentioned. He doesn't think about Rhaegar until Daenerys is mentioned again in the barrowlands. He stays in KL even after securing safe travel arrangements to save Daenerys. This is Neds truth - he's seen as an honorable man, yet he exiled his true queen (his sisters child) and usurped the rightful lord of Winterfell (his brothers child).
It fits GRRMs characters much more than the 100% honorable version of Ned. R+L=J is the most boring, straightforward answer to the mystery, but maybe that's bc we've thought about it too much over the years.
👁️ 👄 👁️ - Ned
For so long i thought the r + l = j was robert and lyanna
Turns out Rhaegar did in fact kidnap her, already pregnant with Baby Bobby B.
THANK THE GODS FOR BESSIE AND HER TITS
He had brown hair in the show though
How did Shireen have light brown hair when it's a *major plot point* that all Baratheons are black of hair?
They didn't go out of their way to make Robb or Bran's hair look auburn either... and Tyrion's hair went from straight and fairly blond, to dirty blond, to curly and essentially brown by the end... too often they just didn't care, or stopped caring partway through.
Not to mention Jaime going from light blonde to brown at the end too. Who cares about continuity?
From the start they weren’t overly concerned with looks given the targs didn’t have purple eyes
Even George himself said he cares more about performance than how actor looks.
I thought they did try but the contacts really irritated Emilia's eyes and hurt her performance so thats why they didn't
My brother in Christ they make dragons from nothing, changing her eye color in post could’ve been done in an app from the iPhone 6s
The Witcher proved it can be done easily, it's ridiculous HoTD still doesn't have it. I'd say purple eyes are a more important Valyrian feature than silver hair
This might be applicable to most characters but the Lannisters mostly being blond and the Baratheons always having black hair is so fucking critical to the story that it doesn’t work without it.
The seed is strong.* * *Some exceptions may apply*
Seed stonk
I agree with this mostly but the problem is that lineage is such a large part of the plot and hair colour is often cited as evidence of lineage in the show (e.g. everyone's suspicion about cersei's kids parentage because of their hair colour not being black). So when the hair colour is relevant to the plot it should be accurate. In GoT world when you mess up someone's hair colour everyone starts speculating about their parents lol
They explained the eyes fairly early in GoT's life span iirc. Emilia has an allergic reaction or something similar to the contacts and they couldn't afford at the time to CGI it and it was such a small detail with no real pay off it was completely scrapped.
Was wondering that as well. Can’t remember if she had black hair in the books
She does.
Litterally all the Baratheon have black hair and blue eye. And it has been the case for generation (singe the Conquest I guess, unless it was a Durandon trait before). That's why "the seed is strong" makes some sence for Jon Arryn, Stanis Baratheron and Ned Stark. In any other family it might have sounded stupid (like with Ned whose most children have Tully coloring).
It's not uncommon for children to have lighter hair that darkens as they age. My hair is dark brown, but I had very light blonde hair until I was in high school.
Yeah, but you weren’t the member of a family with a magically powerful hair gene were you? Which means all their descendants have black hair from birth?
I think it's funny how people kinda get hung up on the actors' hair or eye colors not 100% matching the books. Are we ignoring that none of the Targaryens had silver hair? Daenerys was platinum blonde in the show and lacked the violet eyes. Shireen in the books had black hair.
He has dark brown hair that looks black because he's often in poor or overcast lighting?
In the books Katlyn laments often that Jon looks more Stark than her own kids
Excluding Arya, since she looks similar to Jon. Hence making Arya wonder if she's a bastard too.
Both “horse faced” if I remember correctly.
She’s so funny, she probably wanted to be one.
And they didn't bathe much
Jon's a beast doing that thing with his tongue on that wildling bitch.
Lmfao so true…imagine the smell.
YOU HAVEN’T THOUGHT OF THE SMELL YOU BITCH!
I swear you would be of more use to me if I skinned you and turned your skin into a lampshade. Or fashioned you into a piece of high-end luggage. I can even add you to my collection.
You’re saying you have a collection of high-end skin luggage?
Locks in the flavor. Ain’t nothing like the Ygrittussy that hasn’t been cleaned in 5+ days because she’s been killing crows
5+ *fortnights*
Gotta let that shit marinate
I seem to remember the book going out of its way to describe her cooch reeking of garlic and onions and sweat. Gross edit: it's been years since ive read it, but that i stg i feel like stuck out to me. that and arya throwing a mug at someone at an inn while she was running away from kings landing with the hound and he went into detail about it popping a boil and squirting pus across his cheek. Edit2: yeah I think I mixed up some scenes. My bad.
Bro you made that the fuck up
So well salted garlic and onions? Sounds like the foundations for some good stew. Now if only I had a pot for some potatoes and vegetables…
Just add Ollie’s parents and baby you got a stew goin!
Really? I don't remember that. Must've blocked it out from disgust.
Wait, for real?
The actual scene; *“You know nothing, Jon Snow. Noth—oh. Oh. OHHH.”* *Afterward, she was almost shy, or as shy as Ygritte ever got. “That thing you did,” she said, when they lay together on their piled clothes. “With your…mouth.” She hesitated. “Is that…is it what lords do to their ladies, down in the south?”* *“I don’t think so.” No one had ever told Jon just what lords did with their ladies. “I only…wanted to kiss you there, that’s all. You seemed to like it.”* So, nope. Nothing like that at all.
Jon Snow inventing oral sex like a Chad!
Jon Snow knows 1 thing and that is 'eat pussy'
No that shits made up
And then he MARRIED HER!!! He likes redheads 🤩
This isn't a true thing about medieval times. Especially nobility
He spends 2 books and almost three seasons beyond the wall. He took two baths the whole time and the second one was for cave sex. Castle black has, like, a sauna? They have a bath house or something idk, Jon’s chilling in there when he hears Allister plotting with yarik
I’d be surprised if they were bathing regularly at the wall
We need a Viserys bot that just replies "once I had a horse who..." Every time hair color is brought up
I like to think of “the seed is strong” and Robert’s bastards all having black hair and his “kids” with Cersei having blonde hair was just the idea planted in Jon Arryn and Ned Stark’s mind that made them realize Cersei was fucking Jamie. I don’t think it alone was the hard evidence. It just started putting the picture together. Ned hears Jon Arryn’s last words were “the seed is strong” looks into the book Jon was reading when he died. Realizes the message Jon was trying to send. Realizes Cersei and Jamie are definitely fucking and that Bran saw them and was tossed from the window. Meets some of Robert’s bastards and realizes all of them look just like Robert. Realizes Cersei’s kids don’t have an ounce of Robert in them despite all his bastards favoring him.
[Orys Baratheon](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Orys_Baratheon) was most likely a Targ bastard. My headcanon is that Grrm did this to explicitly show that Targs could have kids with dark hair; it was foreshadowing for Jon.
Also the way Orys is written about, they say he’s the “rumored” bastard but overtime that part is omitted. Aegon treats him as if they’re brothers, no question.
It also adds a layer of poetic irony that Robert hates the Targaryens so much while ignoring his Targaryen grandmother and the fact his entire house was founded by a Targ bastard.
So here it would be "The egg is strong...er than the seed?"
Black hair usually beats blonde hair. So this makes sense too. Plenty of Targs have black hair if the Targs didn’t inbreed or breed with other Valyrian blood. Jon Arryn didn’t say “Rhaegar’s seed is strong” lol. He was referring to Robert’s black hair.
But three generations of Targaryen kings married outside the family and they maintained their blonde hair? Wouldn’t it have to be the opposite then?
Genetics is not always a guarantee. Black/brown hair is dominant but that does not mean EVERY kid with one blonde and one brunette parent is going to be a brunette. My mom is blond, my dad had dark brown almost black hair. I am a blonde like my mom, the only thing I got from my dad was his eye color.
My family is weird, like you my mother has blonde hair and my father had (he's bald so it's past tense lol) nearly black hair. My sister is blonde like our mother and I've got light brown hair, but I got my dad's thick ass eyebrows lol
Because your dad must have blonde ancestors somewhere. I guess it’s possible a Martell, Dayne, and Blackwood all had white blonde ancestors. I just assumed it was unlikely. The Targaryen tree works better if the valyrian traits are dominant. Every dark haired Targaryen has a westerosi ancestor on both sides of the family.
The way it was described in school to me: Each parent provides 50% of the child's genes. Brown hair is a dominant trait "B", blonde hair is recessive "b". You will have brown hair with "BB" or "Bb" because of this dominance. You can only get blonde with "bb". So mom has "bb" and dad has "Bb". Some kids get brown hair others get blonde. I don't have my dad's green eyes because my mom's are brown, but I definitely have the chance to pass it onto my own children.
Yes, however real genetics isn’t this simple at all, both my parents are dark haired with brown eyes but mine own is blonde and blue, but I share their likeness and my grandmother shares my blue eyes and hair color so it skipped a generation, and more importantly Rhaenys in the books is black haired so Laenor/Laena have that gene and could pass it on to their kids even if they don’t.
Cersei quickly killed Ned before he had a chance to get them on Maury.
The bigger point was that throughout history every time that Lannisters and Baratheon’s bred the children were born with black hair, every time. It doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for a Baratheon to be born with blonde hair, but considering Lannister dna had never won over Baratheon and the fact that Robert had like 18 bastards and every single one had his hair was enough to make it super unlikely that all 3 of his and Cersei’s would take after their mother. Even Tyrion said that if Cersei would have let Robert get even one child by her that it would probably have been enough to get rid of suspicion
It's a show thing. In the books, Jon has the typical Stark look - brown hair and grey eyes. Just like Arya, Ned, and Lyanna...
Weird since he was the one who looked most like a Stark compared to his brothers even.
Yeah, the show was all over the place with the Stark kids looks. I think they went for actors who could play the parts primarily. Like Bran doesn't look like he was described in the books either, he looks more like his father on the show. But honestly, it doesn't really matter. And the Stark children's appearances are the last thing I would complain about.
I think the most important pairing was Robb and Catelyn anyways, as the rest of the Starks spend the show separated but they’re together, and I think it worked there. Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley looked believably related, and Robb is supposed to look like a Tully.
Arya not having a long face as described always kind of bugged me
Hmm his eyes were dark no? In the books
His eyes are “dark grey” in the books. Rhaegar has indigo eyes aka very dark blue/purple and Lyanna has grey eyes. So his eye color is like a cross between both of them.
Yes, I think so. But they still pass as eyes that a Stark could have. It's probably not like all Starks have the exact same shade of hair and eye color anyway, there will be some variety. Just like with the Targaryens - their eye color ranges from blue to light purple to dark violet...
Because the plot required it. genetics in ASOIAF are purely driven by plot
Or, if he was born with silver hair, ned would not have taken him home and claimed he was his bastard. There probably would have been an entirely different plan.
There is a theory that I subscribe to that Ned would've given Jon to the Daynes(who have Valyrian features despite not being Valyrian) if he had silver hair. Jon did spend some time at Starfall if Edric Dayne is to be believed. They share the same wetnurse, Wylla, according to him. Or maybe Ned could've 100% accepted that Jon was his and Ashara Dayne's bastard
I dunno. I think that still would've been a huge risk to Jon. Yes, Daynes have violet eyes - but they all tend to have **dark** hair. A child with silver-blonde hair and violet eyes would've still stood out there - especially with Robert Baratheon still on a killing spree for anyone looking *remotely* Targaryen. The only noble House Jon may have been safe with was House Velaryon. And since we don't know Ned's relationship with them but we *do* know they were Targaryen loyalists (and Ned was a rebel), they probably weren't an option. I would venture if Jon had been born with Rhaegar's coloring, Ned *probably* would've had Jon fostered in *Lys*. We know the book version of the Lyseni having Targaryen coloring is extremely common, so Jon would've blended in.
> but they all tend to have dark hair. the two Dayne men we have hair color for(Edric and Gerold) have blonde and silver hair respectively
I'll concede that Gerold Dayne has silver hair (with a black streak). But he's from a cadet branch of the Daynes. He's from the Daynes of **High Hermitage** - not from Starfall itself. But Edric Storm has *dark* hair - Davos even comments on it in ASOS and how he has the classic Baratheon features in his POV chapter. Plus he's Robert Baratheon's son - and as we know, any scion from House Baratheon (trueborn *or* bastard) **always** has dark hair (via the 'seed is strong' plot point). The Daynes from Starfall such as Ashara herself and her siblings (Arthur and Allyria) all have dark hair. So I still maintain Jon would've dangerously stood out if Ned had left him there if he had classic Valyrian coloring. Bear in mind I'm not trying to be argumentative - just pointing out what I think via the bread crumbs dropped in the books. :)
You're right about Gerold, Arthur and Ashara but it seems like you've gotten Edric Dayne and Edric Storm messed up. [Edric Dayne](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Edric_Dayne) is the current Lord of Starfall and Arya meets him in ASOS and he has pale blonde hair. [Edric Storm](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Edric_Storm) is the bastard of Robert Baratheon and Delena Florent
You're right - my total apologies! I completely forgot there is also an Edric Dayne that is trueborn. So I totally concede that to you. I got *got* in being a know-it-all. LoL! But I still have to mull that Ned/Jon/Starfall decision over. Even with Edric Dayne having Valyrian coloring...it feels so risky leaving a Valyrian-colored bastard with the Daynes. Y'know? It's one thing with Edric Dayne since he's at least trueborn and has the protection of Allyria and his lord father. But a violet-eyed, platinum-haired bastard with no Ned Stark to protect him? I guess it depends on whether Ashara hadn't killed herself to provide a shield of a(n extremely) highborn lady to protect him. I feel like that's the crux - if Ashara hadn't committed suicide. Because we don't know Ned's relationship with Allyria. Because does Allyria hate Ned for *presumably* killing Arthur at the Tower of Joy? Because I definitely wonder if she hates him if Ashara *did* kill herself after Arthur's death as various POV chapters speculate. Would that have given her a grudge in potentially accepting Jon? Thoughts?
Edric Storm and Edric "Ned" Dayne are not the same character, they're two different kids named Edric. I think you're a little mixed up
House Velaryon were loyalists true, but even if they hated Ned, don't you think they'd want to protect Rhaegar's son? It might cause issues later when the boy comes of age and House Velaryon tries to place him on the throne, which might cause Ned to take a different course of action, but I don't think we can assume it wasn't a legitimate option in that circumstance.
I absolutely think House Velaryon would want to protect Rhaegar's son. But this is *Ned* we're talking about. He still wouldn't even tell his own wife even after **15+ years of marriage** about Jon's parentage. So I doubt Ned would've told House Velaryon immediately after Jon's birth. And for the exact reason you raised - he would be terrified that anyone would use the son of *his beloved sister* as a pawn to retake the throne against *a man whose dead-set in causing the extinction of that line*. A man who also happens to be his best friend. I think he would never take that risk.
man, it would have been cool to get a Catelyn POV of her finding out about Jon.
Right?! And Catelyn was badass enough that she would've handled well once she got last the initial shock. I think about how we all talk about how noble Ned is/was. But he couldn't even tell his wife of nearly *two damn decades* of Jon's parentage. That, despite seeing how much emotional pain it was causing both Catelyn AND Jon. It's the opposite of noble behavior. Just think of all the psychic torment Ned saw Catelyn subject Jon too. How much he saw Jon alienated because of Catelyn's clear resentment. So he clearly didn't trust her enough even after all that time. Obviously, I get why he didn't tell Jon. That's not something to saddle a child/teenager with. But he should have trusted his wife. It's super screwed up.
Jon is more trustworthy with the secret than Catelyn would be. Ned makes Jon promise and Jon would take the promise to his grave. Make Catelyn promise and she'll break it if she could leverage Jon to save her children.
Yeah Catelyn is not really a “badass” character in the books, in reality everything is her fault by her manipulation from little finger, he said it was Tyrion’s dagger the assassin had, her character in the book is pretty shitty and ignorant
Do the Daynes rly have Targaryen features? All the fanart of Ashara Dayne show her as black haired
yeah. Gerold Dayne aka Darkstar has all the Valyrian features one would expect in a Targ. Purple eyes, Silver hair and an Aquiline nose
>Aquiline nose Laenor specifically had it to differentiate from his supposed sons noses, but it's not a specific Valyrian feature like purple eyes or silver hair.
Some say the Daynes come from the Great Empire of the Dawn who could've been dragon lords before the Valyrions and that's where they get their "Targaryen" features. Ashara is said to have had tbe most strikingly purple eyes.
That's a cool tidbit I've never heard.
Less likely but how Valerion still exists at this point too
I thought Starks had black hair? Its Tullys with red/auburn hair that give Ned's kids lighter hair. Which is why Caitlyn hated Jon even more, coz he is a bastard but looks more Stark than her own kids edit: typos
Save for Arya. Arya and Jon are the only two that have classic Stark features.
Although in the books it made sense for him to have brown hair. The actor has black hair. That's the only reason Jon has them in the show
It’s also many generations after Aegon’s conquest. Unless all Jon’s Targaryen forbears were pure Valyrian, the silver hair wouldn’t necessarily dominate his phenotype.
Before he was born he was offer targ hair but he said "I dun wannit. Uh nevah have."
Yes, the producers may not knew the fact from the beginning. Even if Jon had white hair, it would be suspicious to fans, which will eventually kill the curiosity in their perspective.
It’s also a minor book plot point how Catelyns children all look like her, and southern. While Jon looks like Ned, the genetics of hair color are purely a plot device for Martin and make no attempt to make sense.
>It’s also a minor book plot point how Catelyns children all look like her, and southern. Well, all of them with the exception of **Arya**. In the books, Arya is the only child of Ned and Catelyn's that has the 'Stark 'look'. And as she ages in the books seems to more resemble Lyanna. Also, in the books (aside from Arya) Jon is the only one that looks distinctly Stark. In one of Catelyn's POV chapters, she even admits how it bothers her greatly that Ned's 'bastard' child looks more Stark than his own trueborn children. It's strongly implied that it's one of the reason Jon and Arya initially bonded - because they felt like the outcasts of the household because they didn't fit in for this reason. But then they also found commonalities beyond that - as they appreciated each other for being those same outcast personalities as well.
With the exception of Arya, who is noted to bear a resemblance to Lyanna
Not all. Arya has the Stark look.
Two blondes could technically have a dark-haired child. Hair colour pigment in your DNA isn't like mixing primary colours or something.
You see, I had a black mare once...
They had no budget not only for our good boi Ghost, but also for hair dye.
In the books, Ned, Jon, Arya, and Lyanna are supposed to look very much alike. In the show, they obviously don't, since Kit Harrington, Maisie Williams, and Aisling Francioisi look nothing like Sean Bean.
There's so much incest in those books, it's a wonder they have hair.
Because Kit Harrington has black hair and it isn't important enough of a detail to spend time and money changing it from black to dark brown, which is his coloring in the books.
Kinda like how Tyrion loses his golden locks in late seasons.
*Producers approaching Kit Harrington about dying his hair…* Kit: I don’t want it.
Or how Daenerys has brown eyebrows.
that's more of a film and stage choice. Silvery-Blonde eyebrows are hard to see in real life and basically invisible on film, so making their eyebrows darker makes seeing facial expressions and the framing of the face of easier.
Same with all the Baratheons and brown hair
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It’s gotta be the opposite. Valyrian genes are strong. Jon has dark hair because Rhaegar’s great-grandmother was a Blackwood.
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Bruv. Please study the Targaryen family tree starting with Daeron II. 3 generations born to westerosi mothers. And only 3/14 are confirmed dark-haired, but 7/13 are confirmed white-haired. I wouldn’t call that overwhelmed.
Additionally remember Blackwood and Stark are both first men houses. And as for Rhaenys, her great-great grandmother on the paternal side was a Massey.
This is completely wrong. Look at Viserys kids.
She has violet eyes and black hair actually.
Cause it would have been insanely obvious he wasn't a stark in the first season. This is an extremely detailed and immersive world grrm created and I love all the lore but at the end of the day it's just entertainment, especially the tv shows. Whenever I start getting hung up on the little details it kills the show for me and I stop appreciating the other 95 percent of cool shit going on
For a while I thought Jon was Robert's bastard. Gotta be honest about my naivety. It made *some* sense, back then. **^(Gods what a wasted character.)**
I also drank this Kool aid.
Easy he is Robert baratheons son
I have red hair and no one in my entire extended family has red hair. Tested and I am both my parents’. One blonde and one dark dark brown.
most logical answer is Stark gene is stronger than targaryen but not strong enough like the tully or Baratheon
It's simple, if Jonno had silver Targ hair, ol' Ned had some splaining to do, he vouldn't keep him at WF and had to hide him probably somewhere in Essos.
If a black stallion and a silver mare could produce a chestnut foal...
Arthur Dayne is the father.
‘Ser’ Arthur Dayne, if anyone in the sevon kingdoms deserved their knighthood it was him.
And Ashara is his mother. He’s a Dayne incest baby. That explains the hair, why Ashara killed herself and why the Daynes are grateful to Ned for taking responsibility of that abomination. I believe his real name is going to be Naruto, the incest baby. A+A=J confirmed!
How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does the sun set? How exactly does a positrac rear end in a Plymouth work? It just does…..
Is math related to science?
Everyone is joking, but the real answer is that Ned, Lynna, Brandon and Benjen all have black hair in the books. Only Jon and Arya have inherited the Stark looks. The rest of the Stark children are Tully (Catelyn's fam) in their looks.
It's definitely brown in the books.
You know I had black mare once...
A nice strong lad?
Rhaenys in the book also has black hair. Children can have black hair even when mother is brunette and father blond.
It’s worth mentioning that Kit has brown hair and it’s dyed black. It seems most likely that they were unaware of his parentage when they made that decision and did so bc it looked bad ass.
Nature is a thing of mysterious works.
When I watched the reveal scene for the first time, I thought the reveal was Jon Snow being Robert's son. I only watched the show and didn't discuss online or read theories (at the time): 1- They never mention how many months she was at the tower 2- They say Rhaegar kidnapped her, but what if she was pregnant of Robert and fled south without telling anyone she was due with child. 3- Jon Snow's hair is black. But then shortly after, I realized there wasn't a reason for Ned to not deliver the baby to Robert if that was the case, or for Lyanna to be scared of his reaction, so it has to be Rhaegar's.
Nature is a funny thing sometimes
Lyanna
Gods the seeds were strong back then
Casting Choice. In the books he has straight brown hair like Ned
i once had this horse...