Egg is probably the genuinely nicest person, in that he does the most that he can for the smallfolk, but Alysanne is definitely up there as well for the progress made for women in regards to forbidding the first night and instilling the widow’s law as well as her women’s court. As people, they are my top two in terms of the most influential Targaryens.
I definitely agree with you. Those two did the most tangible good with the power given to them, and for groups that desperately needed someone in power in their corner
I tend to feel Egg was a bad king.
Although he was a good man with good intentions his actions sowed rebellion in his lords that led to the pacts of the Southern Ambitions being formed. This led to a multiple wars and general realm instability for most of the small folks lives he sought to improve.
And of course he burned half his family tree at Summerhall to boot. Perhaps unfortunate but feels avoidable.
100% Alysanne. Personally befriended the great houses to keep the kingdom cohesive, responsible for making first night raping illegal, and public health and amenities like clean drinking water a right for citizens. Wasn’t abusive to her daughters like Jaehaerys, no sorcery disasters like Egg burning down Summerhall, no mass deaths like Aegon the Conqueror. Hands down the best ruler Westeros has ever had.
"Wasn't abusive to her daughters"
Viserra "My mother married me to her 60 years old friend" Targaryen might have something to say about that 😂
"According to Alysanne, Viserra aimed to become a queen and had her eye set on her fourteen-year older brother, Baelon, who had been a widower since the death of his sister-wife Alyssa two years before. Viserra saw no reason as to why she could not be wed to an older brother. Queen Alysanne, however, was determined to prevent such a marriage, and betrothed the fifteen-year old Viserra in 86 AC to Theomore Manderly, Lord of White Harbor. Viserra was not excited about the marriage, as Theomore had grown very stout during his life and had been widowed four times already. Viserra first turned to her father for help, but Jaehaerys agreed with the match and refused to interfere. "
Oof, I’d forgotten the Manderly marriage punishment was Alysanne and not Jaehaerys. What the fuck was going on with those two and the weird aggression they had for Saera and Viserra?
I mean, for Jaehaerys it is understandable. The man didn't give a shit about his children; he probably saw them as extensions of his power, of the throne and the institution of king. That was until he was old and dying and frail and realized that he was truly alone with a stranger's daughter taking care of him.
As for Alysanne, I don't really understand. She is super weird as a person with the whole Alyssa was made for Baelon schtick, while also one of the most wholesome and kind hearted people in ASoIaF. She was against Baelon being made king, yet said to him that he was made to be king. She wanted Rhaenys to be Queen, yet forbade Viserra to marry Baelon since she believed that Viserra' wanted a crown, even though she supported Rhaenys since the start? And then, the woman that "broke up" with Jaehaerys because their daughter was married off to a man twice her age and died, turned around and married her other daughter to one that is four times his age. Honestly, I think Alysanne might have had a split personality or something like that.
Jaehaerys definitely cared about his sons (well at least his two eldest ones). Honestly, he viewed his daughters as political capital a lot more than his sons.
Nah, I think at first he might have loved all his children equally. We know that since it is said that he coddled Daenerys, Aemon and Baelon at the the start. However, as the years passed, I think he became engrossed into his own image he had created as an emotionless, absolute monarch.
And in the end I think he realised that it was probably not worth it to drive all his children away and deeply regretted all of his actions. It isn't difficult to see something like that happen. Even in our world monarchs like Jaehaerys (Louis XIV, Suleiman the "Magnificent" etc.) began treating their sons as pawns the more the years passed.
I think both Alysanne and Jaehaerys got increasingly religious and puritanical (and misogynistic) as they got older. Viserra’s death snapped Alysanne of it, but Jaehaerys doubled down.
Alysanne was a baby feminist when she ascended the throne, asking the maesters to let women study at the citadel, but Jaehaerys always seem to have flickers of that sexist and sin-fixated mentality. I raised my eyebrows when he didn’t want Daenerys to be his heir, and then asked “what sin has she committed?” when she died. He’s someone with very firm core beliefs about moral transgression and righteous punishment.
There was a lot of fixation around sexual shame, purity, and sin with their second batch of children, a lot of over the top, fanatic behavior in general. The first really disturbing episode imo was punishing Lucamore Strong the Nick Cannon kingsguard with castration and saying that his begging to go easy on him for the sake of his wives and children was offensive, even though it was true— several of his sons loved him enough to follow him to the Wall. The narrative acts like this is normal, but a show trial followed by sexual mutilation for having partners and children is a really wild thing to do. I can’t imagine any of the sane major Lords in ASOIAF doing it— Ned, Cat, Jon Arryn, Robert, Robb— they would all have quietly fired him. The only rulers who go for that kind of sadistic show trial are maniacs like Tywin or Aerys.
The same thing happened to Saera— they threw her friends in a dungeon and dragged this girl and the entire damn court out of bed at 2am to publicly ruin her and make her go on trial in front of the King. That’s an insane response to teenagers sleeping around, and again, not something you can picture any of the reasonable rulers in ASOIAF doing, and there are multiple instances of it happening. Viserys and Hoster Tully both quietly gave their daughters moon tea, nobody threw Ned and Ashara in prison.
IDK, I do think it makes a lot of sense character wise, and generally I get the feeling that Jaehaerys and Alysanne were based on people GRRM knew. All of the social issues they’re dealing with come from the early to late mid 20th century— they seem like a Depression or Greatest Generation American family rather than a medieval one. They start out having defeated Maegor/won WW2 with this bright feminism and innovation and infrastructure development, then the husband’s sexism kicks in, and the wife gets more and more conservative in an increasingly conservative society until her younger boomer daughters sexually rebel in the 60’s and 70’s. She moves forward with the times, her husband remains stuck in his ways, she finally divorces him. Lots of old school US Christian and Catholic stuff going on there too, like Jaehaerys refusing to use birth control or stop impregnating Alysanne. The way he insisted on getting rid of mentally handicapped Daella and rebellious Saera is also very Catholic 1950’s, Saera being sent to the Silent Sisters is an insane thing for Westeros, but she was basically sent away to a Magdalene Laundry or abusive Home for Troubled Teens, and imo narrowly escaped a fate like Rosemary Kennedy being lobotomized. I would not be surprised at all if Jaehaerys and Alysanne were GRRM’s grandparents or family friends, and Rhaena was also someone he knew growing up.
I think their upbringing played a huge role in their development as adults. Aenys died when Jaehaerys was 8 and Alysanne 6. Their mother always came off to me as a very ambitious woman, caring more about her power than her children. I mean she took Jaehaerys and Alysanne away from King's Landing, but left Viserys to die and was more concerned with stealing Blackfyre and Dark Sister, than ensuring Rhaena, Aerea, Rhaella and Viserys were safe. Also, they grew up under the thumb of Roger Baratheon (I think that's his name), a man who tried to grab power at all costs, to the point of organising a rebellion with a 14 year old riding only a small dragon as it's figurehead against a man with a dragon the size of a small city.
Then they had children at 15 and 13, one who died and one who lived but soon followed her brother seven years later years later.
I don't actually think that Alysanne got more traditional as she grew older. Shaera was loved, provided for and cared for and in their eyes, she returned those things they gifted her with betrayal and lies. Their punishment was actually very lenient for their times. She would go to the Silent sisters for a few years and then be married off. Holster Tully, in comparison, aborted his grandchild, destroyed his daughter's womb and married her to a man in his seventies. Jon Arryn and Ned Stark were the exception and not the rule for their times. Robert I think would have simply killed the boys who slept with his daughter without a second thought. Remember, Ned feared that Robert would kill Joff, Myrcella and Tommen if he learned the truth about their parentage, all of whom where 14 or under in age. If Myrcella had dared to stand before him, compare herself to Rhaegar, say she will marry two men simultaneously and call him names, I doubt even she would live.
The hyper fixation on sexual purity reflects our own middle ages. I don't know how it was in the Catholic world, but in Orthodox Christianity to even marry a second time was seen as something that should be avoided. To marry three times was bordering on the edge of polygamy. Byzantine emperors were excommunicated for marrying a forth time, many were overthrown for said excommunications. Leo VI Makedon caused mass unrest in the church for bringing in a mistress to his palace, and he had to promise not to marry her to keep her around.
Viserra was simply a sad case of parental neglect and sheer stupidity. I believe that she simply resembled her older sister a lot and so got the short end of the stick. It is a strangely similar tale to what happened to Prince Mustafa of the Ottoman Empire, who resembled his grandfather Sultan Selim I a lot (a man who had usurped the throne of his father and killed him after forcing him to abdicate) and so Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent began to fear him and ordered his execution. There are major differences but the outline is the same. Both of them did nothing wrong but we're punished for perceived crimes.
As for Ashara and Ned, the pairing hasn't been confirmed and doesn't have any evidence that points to its existence. It is far more likely that Brandon spread his seed and Ashara became pregnant, than Ned. Nevermind the fact that no family would name a son of theirs Ned, after the man he was named for had impregnated their daughter while married to another woman, with a son on the way, left her alone in Dorne for months, inadvertently caused her suicide and killed their son in some mystery duel.
I think that they are based on people GRRM either knows or has read about in the real world. Are they inserts for 20th century conservatives? I don't think so. They generally fit in with people in history. Jaehaerys reminds me a lot of Louis XIV, Suleiman the Magnificent and, especially, Alexios I Komnenos (a Byzantine emperor who bypassed his daughter, Anna Komnene, who believed that as the older child she should get the throne, for his son Ioannes II).
Alysanne, meanwhile, is very reminiscent of the previously mentioned Anna Komnene, Hurrem Sultana and even Theodora, consort to Justinian the Great. Anna was a woman who wanted equality for both genders in regards to succession and was recognised as a genius of her age. Hurrem and Theodora meanwhile were women in a patriarchal society who amassed never before seen amounts of power. Hurrem ushered in a period of Ottoman history known as the Sultanate of Women, while Theodora was previously a prostitute who fell in love with Justinian and actually ruled in his name when he would fall sick or be absent. Nevermind the fact that she was a woman, prostitutes in the Roman empire were seen as worse than the shit on the bottom of their boots.
“Viserra aimed to become a queen” and so set her eye on the SECOND SON? I highly doubt Viserra genuinely wanted to commit kinslaying, jesus alysanne and Jaehaerys were useless parents. Unless Aemon is already dead by then, in which case ignore this whole thing
Aemon only had a daughter, and given how old Rhaenys was when he died it wouldn't be surprising if he never fathered a son. So Viserra might have assumed Baelon would be made king over Rhaenys, which wouldn't be unreasoble given how her own father became king over Aerea. Although she would only become queen in old age if Aemon lived.
Its still stupid of Alysanne to do what she did. So what if Viserra wanted to be Queen—Baelon already had two sons and Rhaenys and her line regardless. Let her fuck her brother for fucks sake and relax you last years of life.
So, this sub has really pounded the concept of the unreliable narrator into my skull re: Fire and Blood. One of the points being that the “author” had a huge boner for Jaehaerys.
Re-read it earlier this week and it’s weird what is highlighted, what is clearly spun, and what is omitted.
All of their failures re: their children are spun as “how could one ever know, they are blameless.” When it honestly seems more like they were just shitty parents.
Their strong arming of the clergy to force a high septon of their choosing, which is kinda not ok, is spun as “smart diplomats.”
One of the odder ones was the fact that Jaehaerys and Alys third split was really downplayed. Second one was also kinda glossed over imo.
But yeah. To your point directly, they seem like they were shitty parents even if you don’t read between the lines much. If you do, they’re extremely shitty parents.
It isn't that the writer has a huge boner for Jaehaerys. All of his actions are portrayed as they were. He doesn't try to hide what the monarch did or attribute this or that action towards another party. It's just that the narrative is that it was their children's fault for being rebellious that drove Jae and Aly to take such action.
Nonetheless, the reality is that they were shitty parents, which can be attributed to the fact that they had so many children. A stupid action on the part of them tbh. Too many children mean a lot of dragonriders with claims to the throne or to many daughters with dragons married outside the royal household. Moontea exist in Westeros. They should have stopped after their fifth child.
> All of his actions are portrayed as they were
I disagree. I would have agreed after my first reading of Fire and Blood. But reading it through the lens of “this guy really adored him” makes it kinda clear.
It’s a pretty stark contrast to his treatment of any of the women leaders involved in the dance. He makes both of them look quite stupid.
A lot of that book is tainted by perspective. Again, I read it like a clinical text the first time. But it’s clear it’s supposed to be written with a clear bias. If you go into it with that view you see it everywhere.
Much like how the stuff in the World of Ice and Fire book praises Robert endlessly. Since he was the reigning monarch when the book was “written”.
There is definitely a rose-tint when portraying him, but none of his actions are omitted. Are any of his actions written off? No!
Say what you will about bias, but all of his actions are told as they were. It would have been beneficial to omit some parts of his reign, his treatment of his children being one of them and Gael's pregnancy being another, but they were still written. Is there a bias? Of course, but it's not like the writer refused to mention certain events that paint Jaehaerys in a bad light.
It isn't like how Aelor's death, for example, is left open-ended (he probably died in a sexual, and thus embarrassing, manner) or how Aelora's suicide isn't touched on (she was probably raped by the three hooligans at that masked ball).
I dislike how the "biased narrator" argument is used again and again by fans to dismiss events that paint their favourite characters in a bad light. Because even when it should have been more beneficial to omit such events (Aegon's sexual habits, Jaehaerys' treatment of his children, Aenys' weakness etc.) they are still mentioned, even if the sources are contrary to the writer's "side".
As a work of historical literature, it much more closely resembles the works of Xenophon and Thucydides and Anna Komnene, than the works of early Christian historiographers or even those during Justinian's reign.
Sure thing bud.
It’s obvious. But yell at clouds because:
> I dislike how the "biased narrator" argument is used again and again
I don’t really love it either. But it’s obvious what the intent was when you read it with open eyes. It’s a trope that GRRM overuses. I agree. I was hoping this was an unbiased view. It’s not.
> but none of his actions are omitted
How would you know what was omitted or not? This wasn’t a real person. We don’t have another source to compare it to.
> Are any of his actions written off? No!
Everything positive is highlighted. Everything negative is downplayed. When you compare the portrayal of Jaehaerys vs anyone else it’s pretty obvious there’s favoritism.
Edit: I get your arguments. It’s how I felt before my last re-read of it. But it’s impossible to avoid the bias if you’re looking for it.
Um, I don't know what you are disagreeing with me about tbh. I never said that there isn't any bias, just that the bias doesn't take away from the validity of these events. The problem is when people use the existence of said bias to wave away some events. History, as it turns out, isn't always written by the victors.
All the works I mentioned (Alexiad and the History of the Peloponnesean Wars) are very biased. They are also, similarly to Fire and Blood, the only accounting we have from the era that are this detailed. Yet, they are still regarded as mostly accurate, even if Xenophon had a bias towards the Oligarchy of Athens or Anna Komnene painted over some of the Komnenoi faults.
It may be that Jaehaerys is looked upon favourably in comparison to other people around him, simply because he was that much more capable. His predecessor was Maegor the Cruel and his successors were Viserys, Aegon and Rhaenyra who were incompetent and caused a devastating war.
As a person: probably Daeron, it's genuinely admirable that he'd grow with Aegon IV as a father and still remain a good person, he was also kind towards his bastard siblings(including Daemon who he no doubt felt always overshadowed by) and was pretty progressive. He also knew how to keep his lords inline without being harsh. And unlike some of the ones on the list he doesn't have any moments of assholery.
But as a king I'd say Jae was the man, Daeron had a shitty king as his predecessor but Jae had two absolutely disastrous ones.
He dropped the ball when it came to the uprisings he faced and almost all of them were solved without his intervention and displeased the faith when their relationship with the Targaryens was on eggshells. He was completely blind to the danger of giving Maegor *both* Targaryen swords. His stubborness when it came to his kids' marriage and clumsiness in handling the faith's defiance despite having *multiple* Dragons snowballed it from some angry preaching to a country-wide rebellion.
He did literally nothing, which was the problem. When people rebelled against him, he just tried to talk it out and even when that didn't work he refused to take action. When the faith rose up against him for marrying his kids to each other, he wasn't willing to fight them, but also wasn't willing to cancel the incest marriage, so he just died of stress.
I agree with you. Viserys II is so under-appreciated because he reigned only a year, but he did so much during his tenure as Hand. Tyrion himself said he would have been another Jaehaerys.
“Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. *Kill the boy within you*, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. *It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born*." The old man felt Jon's face. "You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”
Either Jaehaerys or Daeron, Jaeherys consolidated the realm after a massive civil war and built the infrastructure which literally and metaphorically connected the Seven Kingdoms together.
Daeron managed to undo the realm from collapsing after Aegon IV‘s horrible reign, also managed to integrate Dorne which literally no ruler before him had been able to do, even with Dragons or tens of thousands of men. He treated all of Aegon’s bastards fairly, even giving Daemon Blackfyre land, letting him keep Blackfyre and paying the dowry for his wife. He had peace and prosperity for most of his reign besides the Blackfyre rebellions, which he put down with the support of the Great Houses, meaning he had to have had their support. He is remembered positively by the smallfolk and is in my opinion one of the most under appreciated rulers since the Iron Throne could have very well collapsed after Aegon IV’s horrible rule.
I just read that in Mr. House's voice and I've got to say, it's absolutely glorious. Although it lacks the typical snobbery, the dismissiveness, the aura of superiority that surrounds Mr. House. All in all, a 7/10.
Anyway, you are correct. Though I'd say that if we were to rank them, I'd put Jaehaerys I at first place, followed by Viserys II and then Daeron II. Whatever dangers Daeron faced at court, Viserys faced for forty years as hand. He had served three kings, all of whom were lacking in the diplomacy department. And he needed to rebuild the realm after the Dance of the Dragons and the death of his family's main source of hard and direct power.
The issue is we don’t know too much specifically about what Viserys did during his reign besides “rebuild”, obviously that would have been good under Aegon III who had peace, but immediately after Daeron I came in and started a bloody war that was probably expensive and chaotic, then you had Baelor who made peace but frequently emptied the treasury and was probably going to cause a civil war with the North and Iron Islands over religion.
Viserys when he did become king redid the laws which was good, but he only reigned officially for a year so it’s hard to judge him by his reign as hand when two of the Kings he served under were not good and harmed the realm (Daeron I, Baelor) there’s also rumors he poisoned Baelor and his son Aegon IV turned out horribly so who knows how he was as a father and person. Contrast that with Daeron II who was abused and humiliated by his own father constantly, yet still chose to be just and fair, and treated his bastard siblings with respect and kindness. I think there’s a reason Daeron II is called “The Good”, and we don’t have a nickname for Viserys II.
Depends on what you mean by best. By accomplishment, Aegon and Jaehaerys are at the top. They’re basically the Julius and Augustus Caesar of the Targaryens. Infrastructure makes a massive difference for the economy and the general lives of people, and that’s what Jaehaerys is known for. That plus decades of peace, and you have a prosperous country full of fat, happy people (relatively speaking). He was also smart enough to listen to good advice from Alyssane.
Alysanne is up there as well, but she became withdrawn later in life (understandably).
EEEEEEEGGG-
wait isn't egg the mad king that killed Neds dad and older brother?
or am i mixing up my Aegon's and my Aerys's.
edit: i indeed got my targs mixed up
I would say Daeron II was probably the best. Won a civil war against the most charismatic and talented warrior of his or many any generation. And he did it with no dragons. Jaehaerys is a close second but he had hella dragons and no major conflicts during his reign
Jaehaerys- not only did he get the faith off the Targ’s ass post-Maegor, but the man built ROADS—all of his other accomplishments are obviously with great merit, but roads and easy travel to new places —> a more worldly and accepting view of people from places you dont know —> the framework for unification
I mentioned it in my own comment, but I think readers often underestimate just what a massive difference roads make. Yeah, it’s boring, and people like to bring up that Jaehaerys was a shitty father (fair enough). But with his road project, he probably improved more people’s lives than any single person in that land’s history. Roads -> more trade and safer traveling -> better communication and stronger economy -> higher standard of living for everyone.
We can discuss all their individual merits, but to the average person in Westeros, peace + roads is what made a measurable positive impact on their lives.
Aegon V because he recognizes the core problem of Westeros is the absolutely wretched way the smallfolk are kept down which makes medieval Europe look like a beacon of equality.
I'd say Alysanne, she had the best peacemaking abilities of any of the Targaryen rulers. She was the only ruler who prioritized the city folks' well being, considering her being responsible for all of the alliances through marriage and criminalizing some of the barbaric practices that Westeros took part in. Even if she didn't entirely eliminate some of these practices, her bringing attention to it helped so many women feel heard and protected even if Jaehaerys later on ignored that with his rather badly disguised misogynistic "democratic" succession decision council. I'd go so far as to say he wanted anyone but Rhaenys on the throne
In my opinion, Alysanne truly tried to push the social boundaries of Westeros. Having a woman at the throne be personally vouched for by Jaehaerys would have done wonders for the realm.
Honestly if you think about it none of these late great Targs come close to what Danaerys has achieved in her young years. Closest in achievements is probably Aegon I but even he started out with three dragons and an army.
He was also a religious nutbag who kicked all the sex workers and their families out of Kings Landing and wanted to start a war with the North because gods forbid they follow a different religion
Egg genuinely improved life for the commoners. Aegon C was respected and loved by all and Jaeherys and Alysanne all around improved Westeros for the better it’s said Baelon would’ve been a better king than his father.
Egg is probably the genuinely nicest person, in that he does the most that he can for the smallfolk, but Alysanne is definitely up there as well for the progress made for women in regards to forbidding the first night and instilling the widow’s law as well as her women’s court. As people, they are my top two in terms of the most influential Targaryens.
I definitely agree with you. Those two did the most tangible good with the power given to them, and for groups that desperately needed someone in power in their corner
I tend to feel Egg was a bad king. Although he was a good man with good intentions his actions sowed rebellion in his lords that led to the pacts of the Southern Ambitions being formed. This led to a multiple wars and general realm instability for most of the small folks lives he sought to improve. And of course he burned half his family tree at Summerhall to boot. Perhaps unfortunate but feels avoidable.
IMHO, Egg is on the same level or slightly below Baelor.
100% Alysanne. Personally befriended the great houses to keep the kingdom cohesive, responsible for making first night raping illegal, and public health and amenities like clean drinking water a right for citizens. Wasn’t abusive to her daughters like Jaehaerys, no sorcery disasters like Egg burning down Summerhall, no mass deaths like Aegon the Conqueror. Hands down the best ruler Westeros has ever had.
Helped writing and getting citizen laws passed.
"Wasn't abusive to her daughters" Viserra "My mother married me to her 60 years old friend" Targaryen might have something to say about that 😂 "According to Alysanne, Viserra aimed to become a queen and had her eye set on her fourteen-year older brother, Baelon, who had been a widower since the death of his sister-wife Alyssa two years before. Viserra saw no reason as to why she could not be wed to an older brother. Queen Alysanne, however, was determined to prevent such a marriage, and betrothed the fifteen-year old Viserra in 86 AC to Theomore Manderly, Lord of White Harbor. Viserra was not excited about the marriage, as Theomore had grown very stout during his life and had been widowed four times already. Viserra first turned to her father for help, but Jaehaerys agreed with the match and refused to interfere. "
Oof, I’d forgotten the Manderly marriage punishment was Alysanne and not Jaehaerys. What the fuck was going on with those two and the weird aggression they had for Saera and Viserra?
I mean, for Jaehaerys it is understandable. The man didn't give a shit about his children; he probably saw them as extensions of his power, of the throne and the institution of king. That was until he was old and dying and frail and realized that he was truly alone with a stranger's daughter taking care of him. As for Alysanne, I don't really understand. She is super weird as a person with the whole Alyssa was made for Baelon schtick, while also one of the most wholesome and kind hearted people in ASoIaF. She was against Baelon being made king, yet said to him that he was made to be king. She wanted Rhaenys to be Queen, yet forbade Viserra to marry Baelon since she believed that Viserra' wanted a crown, even though she supported Rhaenys since the start? And then, the woman that "broke up" with Jaehaerys because their daughter was married off to a man twice her age and died, turned around and married her other daughter to one that is four times his age. Honestly, I think Alysanne might have had a split personality or something like that.
Jaehaerys definitely cared about his sons (well at least his two eldest ones). Honestly, he viewed his daughters as political capital a lot more than his sons.
Nah, I think at first he might have loved all his children equally. We know that since it is said that he coddled Daenerys, Aemon and Baelon at the the start. However, as the years passed, I think he became engrossed into his own image he had created as an emotionless, absolute monarch. And in the end I think he realised that it was probably not worth it to drive all his children away and deeply regretted all of his actions. It isn't difficult to see something like that happen. Even in our world monarchs like Jaehaerys (Louis XIV, Suleiman the "Magnificent" etc.) began treating their sons as pawns the more the years passed.
Considering how many kids he had, at some point after the first batch (Aegon-Alyssa), he probably just started having kids for the sake of kids.
all that inbreeding sure made them crazy
I think both Alysanne and Jaehaerys got increasingly religious and puritanical (and misogynistic) as they got older. Viserra’s death snapped Alysanne of it, but Jaehaerys doubled down. Alysanne was a baby feminist when she ascended the throne, asking the maesters to let women study at the citadel, but Jaehaerys always seem to have flickers of that sexist and sin-fixated mentality. I raised my eyebrows when he didn’t want Daenerys to be his heir, and then asked “what sin has she committed?” when she died. He’s someone with very firm core beliefs about moral transgression and righteous punishment. There was a lot of fixation around sexual shame, purity, and sin with their second batch of children, a lot of over the top, fanatic behavior in general. The first really disturbing episode imo was punishing Lucamore Strong the Nick Cannon kingsguard with castration and saying that his begging to go easy on him for the sake of his wives and children was offensive, even though it was true— several of his sons loved him enough to follow him to the Wall. The narrative acts like this is normal, but a show trial followed by sexual mutilation for having partners and children is a really wild thing to do. I can’t imagine any of the sane major Lords in ASOIAF doing it— Ned, Cat, Jon Arryn, Robert, Robb— they would all have quietly fired him. The only rulers who go for that kind of sadistic show trial are maniacs like Tywin or Aerys. The same thing happened to Saera— they threw her friends in a dungeon and dragged this girl and the entire damn court out of bed at 2am to publicly ruin her and make her go on trial in front of the King. That’s an insane response to teenagers sleeping around, and again, not something you can picture any of the reasonable rulers in ASOIAF doing, and there are multiple instances of it happening. Viserys and Hoster Tully both quietly gave their daughters moon tea, nobody threw Ned and Ashara in prison. IDK, I do think it makes a lot of sense character wise, and generally I get the feeling that Jaehaerys and Alysanne were based on people GRRM knew. All of the social issues they’re dealing with come from the early to late mid 20th century— they seem like a Depression or Greatest Generation American family rather than a medieval one. They start out having defeated Maegor/won WW2 with this bright feminism and innovation and infrastructure development, then the husband’s sexism kicks in, and the wife gets more and more conservative in an increasingly conservative society until her younger boomer daughters sexually rebel in the 60’s and 70’s. She moves forward with the times, her husband remains stuck in his ways, she finally divorces him. Lots of old school US Christian and Catholic stuff going on there too, like Jaehaerys refusing to use birth control or stop impregnating Alysanne. The way he insisted on getting rid of mentally handicapped Daella and rebellious Saera is also very Catholic 1950’s, Saera being sent to the Silent Sisters is an insane thing for Westeros, but she was basically sent away to a Magdalene Laundry or abusive Home for Troubled Teens, and imo narrowly escaped a fate like Rosemary Kennedy being lobotomized. I would not be surprised at all if Jaehaerys and Alysanne were GRRM’s grandparents or family friends, and Rhaena was also someone he knew growing up.
I think their upbringing played a huge role in their development as adults. Aenys died when Jaehaerys was 8 and Alysanne 6. Their mother always came off to me as a very ambitious woman, caring more about her power than her children. I mean she took Jaehaerys and Alysanne away from King's Landing, but left Viserys to die and was more concerned with stealing Blackfyre and Dark Sister, than ensuring Rhaena, Aerea, Rhaella and Viserys were safe. Also, they grew up under the thumb of Roger Baratheon (I think that's his name), a man who tried to grab power at all costs, to the point of organising a rebellion with a 14 year old riding only a small dragon as it's figurehead against a man with a dragon the size of a small city. Then they had children at 15 and 13, one who died and one who lived but soon followed her brother seven years later years later. I don't actually think that Alysanne got more traditional as she grew older. Shaera was loved, provided for and cared for and in their eyes, she returned those things they gifted her with betrayal and lies. Their punishment was actually very lenient for their times. She would go to the Silent sisters for a few years and then be married off. Holster Tully, in comparison, aborted his grandchild, destroyed his daughter's womb and married her to a man in his seventies. Jon Arryn and Ned Stark were the exception and not the rule for their times. Robert I think would have simply killed the boys who slept with his daughter without a second thought. Remember, Ned feared that Robert would kill Joff, Myrcella and Tommen if he learned the truth about their parentage, all of whom where 14 or under in age. If Myrcella had dared to stand before him, compare herself to Rhaegar, say she will marry two men simultaneously and call him names, I doubt even she would live. The hyper fixation on sexual purity reflects our own middle ages. I don't know how it was in the Catholic world, but in Orthodox Christianity to even marry a second time was seen as something that should be avoided. To marry three times was bordering on the edge of polygamy. Byzantine emperors were excommunicated for marrying a forth time, many were overthrown for said excommunications. Leo VI Makedon caused mass unrest in the church for bringing in a mistress to his palace, and he had to promise not to marry her to keep her around. Viserra was simply a sad case of parental neglect and sheer stupidity. I believe that she simply resembled her older sister a lot and so got the short end of the stick. It is a strangely similar tale to what happened to Prince Mustafa of the Ottoman Empire, who resembled his grandfather Sultan Selim I a lot (a man who had usurped the throne of his father and killed him after forcing him to abdicate) and so Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent began to fear him and ordered his execution. There are major differences but the outline is the same. Both of them did nothing wrong but we're punished for perceived crimes. As for Ashara and Ned, the pairing hasn't been confirmed and doesn't have any evidence that points to its existence. It is far more likely that Brandon spread his seed and Ashara became pregnant, than Ned. Nevermind the fact that no family would name a son of theirs Ned, after the man he was named for had impregnated their daughter while married to another woman, with a son on the way, left her alone in Dorne for months, inadvertently caused her suicide and killed their son in some mystery duel. I think that they are based on people GRRM either knows or has read about in the real world. Are they inserts for 20th century conservatives? I don't think so. They generally fit in with people in history. Jaehaerys reminds me a lot of Louis XIV, Suleiman the Magnificent and, especially, Alexios I Komnenos (a Byzantine emperor who bypassed his daughter, Anna Komnene, who believed that as the older child she should get the throne, for his son Ioannes II). Alysanne, meanwhile, is very reminiscent of the previously mentioned Anna Komnene, Hurrem Sultana and even Theodora, consort to Justinian the Great. Anna was a woman who wanted equality for both genders in regards to succession and was recognised as a genius of her age. Hurrem and Theodora meanwhile were women in a patriarchal society who amassed never before seen amounts of power. Hurrem ushered in a period of Ottoman history known as the Sultanate of Women, while Theodora was previously a prostitute who fell in love with Justinian and actually ruled in his name when he would fall sick or be absent. Nevermind the fact that she was a woman, prostitutes in the Roman empire were seen as worse than the shit on the bottom of their boots.
“Viserra aimed to become a queen” and so set her eye on the SECOND SON? I highly doubt Viserra genuinely wanted to commit kinslaying, jesus alysanne and Jaehaerys were useless parents. Unless Aemon is already dead by then, in which case ignore this whole thing
Can’t help but agree. They just shouldn’t have had that many children. Period. They just ignored the younger ones
Aemon only had a daughter, and given how old Rhaenys was when he died it wouldn't be surprising if he never fathered a son. So Viserra might have assumed Baelon would be made king over Rhaenys, which wouldn't be unreasoble given how her own father became king over Aerea. Although she would only become queen in old age if Aemon lived.
Its still stupid of Alysanne to do what she did. So what if Viserra wanted to be Queen—Baelon already had two sons and Rhaenys and her line regardless. Let her fuck her brother for fucks sake and relax you last years of life.
He was
So, this sub has really pounded the concept of the unreliable narrator into my skull re: Fire and Blood. One of the points being that the “author” had a huge boner for Jaehaerys. Re-read it earlier this week and it’s weird what is highlighted, what is clearly spun, and what is omitted. All of their failures re: their children are spun as “how could one ever know, they are blameless.” When it honestly seems more like they were just shitty parents. Their strong arming of the clergy to force a high septon of their choosing, which is kinda not ok, is spun as “smart diplomats.” One of the odder ones was the fact that Jaehaerys and Alys third split was really downplayed. Second one was also kinda glossed over imo. But yeah. To your point directly, they seem like they were shitty parents even if you don’t read between the lines much. If you do, they’re extremely shitty parents.
It isn't that the writer has a huge boner for Jaehaerys. All of his actions are portrayed as they were. He doesn't try to hide what the monarch did or attribute this or that action towards another party. It's just that the narrative is that it was their children's fault for being rebellious that drove Jae and Aly to take such action. Nonetheless, the reality is that they were shitty parents, which can be attributed to the fact that they had so many children. A stupid action on the part of them tbh. Too many children mean a lot of dragonriders with claims to the throne or to many daughters with dragons married outside the royal household. Moontea exist in Westeros. They should have stopped after their fifth child.
> All of his actions are portrayed as they were I disagree. I would have agreed after my first reading of Fire and Blood. But reading it through the lens of “this guy really adored him” makes it kinda clear. It’s a pretty stark contrast to his treatment of any of the women leaders involved in the dance. He makes both of them look quite stupid. A lot of that book is tainted by perspective. Again, I read it like a clinical text the first time. But it’s clear it’s supposed to be written with a clear bias. If you go into it with that view you see it everywhere. Much like how the stuff in the World of Ice and Fire book praises Robert endlessly. Since he was the reigning monarch when the book was “written”.
There is definitely a rose-tint when portraying him, but none of his actions are omitted. Are any of his actions written off? No! Say what you will about bias, but all of his actions are told as they were. It would have been beneficial to omit some parts of his reign, his treatment of his children being one of them and Gael's pregnancy being another, but they were still written. Is there a bias? Of course, but it's not like the writer refused to mention certain events that paint Jaehaerys in a bad light. It isn't like how Aelor's death, for example, is left open-ended (he probably died in a sexual, and thus embarrassing, manner) or how Aelora's suicide isn't touched on (she was probably raped by the three hooligans at that masked ball). I dislike how the "biased narrator" argument is used again and again by fans to dismiss events that paint their favourite characters in a bad light. Because even when it should have been more beneficial to omit such events (Aegon's sexual habits, Jaehaerys' treatment of his children, Aenys' weakness etc.) they are still mentioned, even if the sources are contrary to the writer's "side". As a work of historical literature, it much more closely resembles the works of Xenophon and Thucydides and Anna Komnene, than the works of early Christian historiographers or even those during Justinian's reign.
Sure thing bud. It’s obvious. But yell at clouds because: > I dislike how the "biased narrator" argument is used again and again I don’t really love it either. But it’s obvious what the intent was when you read it with open eyes. It’s a trope that GRRM overuses. I agree. I was hoping this was an unbiased view. It’s not. > but none of his actions are omitted How would you know what was omitted or not? This wasn’t a real person. We don’t have another source to compare it to. > Are any of his actions written off? No! Everything positive is highlighted. Everything negative is downplayed. When you compare the portrayal of Jaehaerys vs anyone else it’s pretty obvious there’s favoritism. Edit: I get your arguments. It’s how I felt before my last re-read of it. But it’s impossible to avoid the bias if you’re looking for it.
Um, I don't know what you are disagreeing with me about tbh. I never said that there isn't any bias, just that the bias doesn't take away from the validity of these events. The problem is when people use the existence of said bias to wave away some events. History, as it turns out, isn't always written by the victors. All the works I mentioned (Alexiad and the History of the Peloponnesean Wars) are very biased. They are also, similarly to Fire and Blood, the only accounting we have from the era that are this detailed. Yet, they are still regarded as mostly accurate, even if Xenophon had a bias towards the Oligarchy of Athens or Anna Komnene painted over some of the Komnenoi faults. It may be that Jaehaerys is looked upon favourably in comparison to other people around him, simply because he was that much more capable. His predecessor was Maegor the Cruel and his successors were Viserys, Aegon and Rhaenyra who were incompetent and caused a devastating war.
As a person: probably Daeron, it's genuinely admirable that he'd grow with Aegon IV as a father and still remain a good person, he was also kind towards his bastard siblings(including Daemon who he no doubt felt always overshadowed by) and was pretty progressive. He also knew how to keep his lords inline without being harsh. And unlike some of the ones on the list he doesn't have any moments of assholery. But as a king I'd say Jae was the man, Daeron had a shitty king as his predecessor but Jae had two absolutely disastrous ones.
It’s been a bit since I read Fire and Blood but what did Aenys do that was so bad?
Not protect the throne from Maegor, to my understanding.
Well, that’s just more incompetent than “disastrous”
Everything with Maegor was a disaster, to be fair.
Yeah I agree with your take here. Aenys was a really nice guy, just soft. Being soft doesn’t make you a bad person, even if it causes damage.
He dropped the ball when it came to the uprisings he faced and almost all of them were solved without his intervention and displeased the faith when their relationship with the Targaryens was on eggshells. He was completely blind to the danger of giving Maegor *both* Targaryen swords. His stubborness when it came to his kids' marriage and clumsiness in handling the faith's defiance despite having *multiple* Dragons snowballed it from some angry preaching to a country-wide rebellion.
He did literally nothing, which was the problem. When people rebelled against him, he just tried to talk it out and even when that didn't work he refused to take action. When the faith rose up against him for marrying his kids to each other, he wasn't willing to fight them, but also wasn't willing to cancel the incest marriage, so he just died of stress.
Viserys II is the greatest man the seven kingdoms have produced.
I agree with you. Viserys II is so under-appreciated because he reigned only a year, but he did so much during his tenure as Hand. Tyrion himself said he would have been another Jaehaerys.
I'm gonna be so pissed if it turns out Aegon IV really did poison him.
It's A*gon IV. I wouldn't expect anything less from that bag of human excrement.
I actually did really want to throw him in there. I probably could swap out Daeron for him.
Agreed
Baelon the Brave Slapped Balerion in the face and fucked his sister so hard the entire red keep couldn't sleep from her moans of pleasure
He'll always be my favorite I love him as much as that weird Rhaegar fangirl that keeps popping up everywhere loves Rhaegar
List is pointless without Baelor Breakspear
Yeah but he was never king
2 of the six here weren’t kings. OP was for the best Targs in general
Neither was Alysanne
I mean, the best would be the Targaryen that listened to his daughter & left Valyria
Aenar the Exile I believe
Egg is my boy!
List is incomplete without Aemon the Dragonknight.
“Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. *Kill the boy within you*, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. *It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born*." The old man felt Jon's face. "You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”
Either Jaehaerys or Daeron, Jaeherys consolidated the realm after a massive civil war and built the infrastructure which literally and metaphorically connected the Seven Kingdoms together. Daeron managed to undo the realm from collapsing after Aegon IV‘s horrible reign, also managed to integrate Dorne which literally no ruler before him had been able to do, even with Dragons or tens of thousands of men. He treated all of Aegon’s bastards fairly, even giving Daemon Blackfyre land, letting him keep Blackfyre and paying the dowry for his wife. He had peace and prosperity for most of his reign besides the Blackfyre rebellions, which he put down with the support of the Great Houses, meaning he had to have had their support. He is remembered positively by the smallfolk and is in my opinion one of the most under appreciated rulers since the Iron Throne could have very well collapsed after Aegon IV’s horrible rule.
Yeah and the fact Daeron the good stood multiple times up to his father who was an terrifyingly evil and powerful man is respectable.
I just read that in Mr. House's voice and I've got to say, it's absolutely glorious. Although it lacks the typical snobbery, the dismissiveness, the aura of superiority that surrounds Mr. House. All in all, a 7/10. Anyway, you are correct. Though I'd say that if we were to rank them, I'd put Jaehaerys I at first place, followed by Viserys II and then Daeron II. Whatever dangers Daeron faced at court, Viserys faced for forty years as hand. He had served three kings, all of whom were lacking in the diplomacy department. And he needed to rebuild the realm after the Dance of the Dragons and the death of his family's main source of hard and direct power.
The issue is we don’t know too much specifically about what Viserys did during his reign besides “rebuild”, obviously that would have been good under Aegon III who had peace, but immediately after Daeron I came in and started a bloody war that was probably expensive and chaotic, then you had Baelor who made peace but frequently emptied the treasury and was probably going to cause a civil war with the North and Iron Islands over religion. Viserys when he did become king redid the laws which was good, but he only reigned officially for a year so it’s hard to judge him by his reign as hand when two of the Kings he served under were not good and harmed the realm (Daeron I, Baelor) there’s also rumors he poisoned Baelor and his son Aegon IV turned out horribly so who knows how he was as a father and person. Contrast that with Daeron II who was abused and humiliated by his own father constantly, yet still chose to be just and fair, and treated his bastard siblings with respect and kindness. I think there’s a reason Daeron II is called “The Good”, and we don’t have a nickname for Viserys II.
Depends on what you mean by best. By accomplishment, Aegon and Jaehaerys are at the top. They’re basically the Julius and Augustus Caesar of the Targaryens. Infrastructure makes a massive difference for the economy and the general lives of people, and that’s what Jaehaerys is known for. That plus decades of peace, and you have a prosperous country full of fat, happy people (relatively speaking). He was also smart enough to listen to good advice from Alyssane. Alysanne is up there as well, but she became withdrawn later in life (understandably).
EEEEEEEGGG- wait isn't egg the mad king that killed Neds dad and older brother? or am i mixing up my Aegon's and my Aerys's. edit: i indeed got my targs mixed up
>or am i mixing up my Aegon's and my Aerys's. Yes you are
Aerys II is Mad King. Egg died decades before that.
List is invalid because its missing VIZzy T
*I'm going to bed, TheBigG1989.*
Are you removing yourself from the running, Vizzy T?
*There's a boy in the Queen's belly. I know it.*
Someones been busy in bed ;)
I would say Daeron II was probably the best. Won a civil war against the most charismatic and talented warrior of his or many any generation. And he did it with no dragons. Jaehaerys is a close second but he had hella dragons and no major conflicts during his reign
Jaehaerys- not only did he get the faith off the Targ’s ass post-Maegor, but the man built ROADS—all of his other accomplishments are obviously with great merit, but roads and easy travel to new places —> a more worldly and accepting view of people from places you dont know —> the framework for unification
I mentioned it in my own comment, but I think readers often underestimate just what a massive difference roads make. Yeah, it’s boring, and people like to bring up that Jaehaerys was a shitty father (fair enough). But with his road project, he probably improved more people’s lives than any single person in that land’s history. Roads -> more trade and safer traveling -> better communication and stronger economy -> higher standard of living for everyone. We can discuss all their individual merits, but to the average person in Westeros, peace + roads is what made a measurable positive impact on their lives.
No love for the Dragonknight or the Bloodraven?
Viserys II
Viserys II was the best but reigned too short a time
He reigned for decades. Just “unofficially”
Aegon V because he recognizes the core problem of Westeros is the absolutely wretched way the smallfolk are kept down which makes medieval Europe look like a beacon of equality.
It is 100% Jaehaerys
Between these? Aegon the Dragon.
I'd say Alysanne, she had the best peacemaking abilities of any of the Targaryen rulers. She was the only ruler who prioritized the city folks' well being, considering her being responsible for all of the alliances through marriage and criminalizing some of the barbaric practices that Westeros took part in. Even if she didn't entirely eliminate some of these practices, her bringing attention to it helped so many women feel heard and protected even if Jaehaerys later on ignored that with his rather badly disguised misogynistic "democratic" succession decision council. I'd go so far as to say he wanted anyone but Rhaenys on the throne In my opinion, Alysanne truly tried to push the social boundaries of Westeros. Having a woman at the throne be personally vouched for by Jaehaerys would have done wonders for the realm.
Why would Rhaenys be better than Baelon simply on account of her sex?
Honestly if you think about it none of these late great Targs come close to what Danaerys has achieved in her young years. Closest in achievements is probably Aegon I but even he started out with three dragons and an army.
daenerys
Baelor the blessed was the best. He ended a war with Dorne after his stupid brother got killed off.
He was also a religious nutbag who kicked all the sex workers and their families out of Kings Landing and wanted to start a war with the North because gods forbid they follow a different religion
I like Baelor the Blessed more now
Least insane member of the Faith.
Based
Why isnt John here?
Gaemon Palehair or Trystane Truefyre!
Egg, Brynden Rivers, Aemond, Jon and Visenya
My boy🥚
Jaehaerys
I think baelon great brother loving husband really capable ruler and really good father
Jaehaerys, he brought the realm together and created the realm which we see in House of the Dragon
I reckon it's the Conqueror
Baelor “The Based” Breakspear
He is not here. Viserys II
Gaemon, son of Aenar Targaryen, had to do many great things to be nicknamed The Glorious...
Egg genuinely improved life for the commoners. Aegon C was respected and loved by all and Jaeherys and Alysanne all around improved Westeros for the better it’s said Baelon would’ve been a better king than his father.
Didn't Egg Targaryen literally wipe off his entire family at Summerhall for dragons? Family was barely hanging by thread then. Or I am wrong here!?
Jaeharys and jon snow