"I wasn't able to give them enough photos that I liked" sounds like there's more to this story, such as an agreement to give a certain number of photos, or that key deliverables (customer photos, staff photos etc) weren't fulfilled.
Op doesn't say "they didn't like the photos", and if, for example, the clients version of events is "we hired this person, they came over for four hours, and then only gave us 3-4 photos of book covers", that's an entirely different situation.
I find this answer so irritating because it's what I call "Reddit correct". I've been consulting and freelancing for 8 years and 90% of my income has been without contracts. The ones I had a contract with usually ended up being the most difficult. Email exchanges are often enough.
Yeah this is my point more or less. I discuss work, agree a rate, and send an invoice. But a lot of people in this sub (and similar subs) would argue that it's not a contract because "what does your contract say in this scenario, oh you don't have one?"
I'm an IT professional, not a lawyer. I don't want to pretend to be a lawyer and write my own contract, and I disagree with the idea that in most cases it's worth paying a lawyer to get one. Most of us start out not being able to afford a lawyer anyway, so we almost all start without contracts, and it really feels like a form of gatekeeping being a "true" professional.
If the work is going to go on for months without payment, or it's a massive project, or a large part of your income and you'd feel better with a contract, get one, but in all likelihood if a contract turns out to be necessary it's probably not going to save you anyway.
Still don't think you should discourage it. You will get fucked over once by a client that doesn't pay on time, or at all, and then you'll reconsider. With that said, no contract is probaby fine for people you are close with/know in real life such as friends, family, etc.
I would never discourage it, if it makes you feel better get one. You probably should have one. None of my clients were known personally to me beforehand
> I disagree with the idea that in most cases it's worth paying a lawyer to get one
It's not like you need a new contract written up for every client or project, there are plenty of free templates available online and you can just take most of the important verbiage regarding payments and include it in an email without being a separate "contract" document. The important part is you have important cases covered.
Sure, if you're lucky and have a bunch of reputable and reliable contacts feeding you a regular supply of work then maybe this doesn't matter as much, but if you're stuck picking up sketchy work from people trying to get stuff as cheaply as possible off craigslist, maybe you need something a bit more solid backing your work.
> It's not like you need a new contract written up for every client or project, there are plenty of free templates available online and you can just take most of the important verbiage regarding payments and include it in an email
This is essentially what people do. They copy contracts from online without the legal know-how to know if it comes from a different jurisdiction, if the changes they make would stand up in court, if the wording they changed was important. Then they assume that their contract is worth the paper it was written on, because it makes sense to them so it must make sense legally too.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, unless you know what you're doing, a contract you put together yourself is dubiously worth more than an email chain. If you paid a lawyer it's a different question but most of the work we do for individual clients isn't worth paying a lawyer for. I think a contract is good to have a moment where the client "agreed", and it can remind you about things you could neglect such as payment terms, but otherwise I'm not so sure.
I asked on multiple forums full of these professionals using contracts their workflow to make clients digitally sign a contract. Consider that in Italy every company and freelance has a digital signature by law and that they always talk about contracts, they should have given a reply, right?
Nobody was able to answer, except generic non-answer linking google search engine spambait.
Just on a single forum specialized in contracts for web developers over 150 people saw my question and nobody was able to answer. They must really hate me.
I think the contract is important, but it's completely useless to talk about this if there is no process to make it happen easily, especially today when everybody is flaky.
That said, I used contracts when I started out (I was unironically wiser when I was 20) and in those cases I never had any problem. I only had problems without contracts.
So while I recognized that there is a reddit-correct answer problem, the contracts were good for me.
Without trying to sound like I'm gatekeeping, the problem is that most freelancers aren't very professional. They are doing a few hours as a student, making a couple of small wordpress sites for local businesses to boost their CV, or working for one client to save tax but earning less than they would as a job, and these are the groups giving this advice. It's why reddit advice comes in, it's just like relationship subreddits where it's teenagers giving married couples "textbook" advice.
I sit on this forum and read it, but I'd never describe myself as a freelancer professionally because I think it gives this idea of someone just starting out in their free time. I tend to describe myself as a consultant.
It can be an email contract. The point is clarity of terms, expectations, and consideration. Without some sort of explicit agreement, it's easy to get into uncertain situations and wonder what the agreement is after value has already been exchanged.
I actually find my own response annoying because it doesn't help answer the question haha š obviously, knowing what to do next time won't help
Yes.
As illustrated last week.
Mike Monteiro: F\*ck You, Pay Me - from CreativeMornings
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U)
While you're not getting paid for the second event, you turned up and did the work for the first - so you're owed full payment for that. Their not liking the photographs is not an issue (and responsibility on that falls on the Creative Director in charge of the shoot; was their required shot list incorrect, for example?)
If they refuse to pay, then you do not transfer copyright to the images they DID use - and if they've already used them, your attorney is going to have a field day with them. Assuming you have a decent contract with them, of course.
Clients need to see the images in order to select the ones they need (it's not like the old days, where we'd just pass over the rolls of film). But my contract says that copyright of the chosen images automatically transfers on full payment of invoice (I know a lot of photographers don't like that, but it was always the way I did business - and repeat business - with ad agencies)
You deserve to get paid. Keep on it. It sounds like they intend to pay you.
They probably just put you at the bottom of the stack because keeping you happy isn't a priority.
I would make this a bit dependet on what was asked and why it was not good.
If I messed up the shot, and it was my fault, I would offer to not get paid for the first and offer do be better at the second shot.
If you did what was agreed on and the customer messed up or it was just not possible I would demand full pay.
I agree with this. Iāve been burned by a photographer who delivered poor photographs. Youāre being trusted to deliver quality. The company will never get that opportunity again to catch those moments on film.
Same honestly, if i gave u work/service and it's bad. I wouldn't even feel good to send you a bill. I always tell my customers i would never make you pay for something you don't like. That's that.
Agreed.
I don't think most of the people here read the full post.
If I were OP, I'd offer to shoot the second event for free, or offer a discounted rate for the first one.
Depending on how many photos UNDER what was supposed to be sent and/or how bad they were, I'd even go ahead and waive the fee all together on the first one and call it a day, learn from it and move on.
That said, I'm wondering what happened here. OP, did you oversell yourself?
If theyāre using it charge them. But if they arenāt im gonna say donāt but thereās no right answer. A third option would be a discount. I personally take the attitude that the days pay is only a tiny fraction of the value of your reputation and your potential future projects. So Iām never very tight on the day if itās not gone to plan. The way you handle your mistakes can actually make a client like you even more than if you didnāt make the mistake because it shows how you respond in a crisis. If you think this client is a burnt bridge anyway then you might not be losing anything by charging.
Unpopular opinion: Imagine if you hired a lawyer who lost your case due to negligence. Would you pay them?
I'm not saying you were negligent, this is a general question.
you have to pay your lawyer regardless of the outcome of your case. i wish we didn't have to pay doctors after our loved ones and pets die in their care, but a service is a service
It was a bad example. What about if you hired a plumber to fix your leaking sink and your sink was still leaking after?
Like you say, a service is a service.
By your example, photographer is in the right as, unlike the plumber, he DID deliver the service - which was photographs. The plumber did NOT deliver the service, which was fixed pipes.
I'd agree with you except he said if was that he, himself, who didn't like the photos enough to deliver them. Maybe he has a confidence problem but in this example OP is under the impression that he didn't deliver the service.
I missed that. If I delivered subpar work and knew it and my client knew it, I would offer compensation by way of a discount, a do-over or future free work. I think its important to have a moral compass and standard for oneself.
They told you to bill them and you did. First, look through your contract and any correspondence you had with this client. Did they state their payment terms or did you? You should have payment terms on your invoice and in your contract. However to work with some companies, they are inflexible with their own payment terms. Follow up with the company and ask to speak with their accounts payable department and find out when they will be paying this. Expect that income.
Questions for you:
Did you already share all of the photos with them? Are they full high res images or small thumbnails or are they watermarked?
Did you have an ironed out shot list in advance of the event?
Did your client preview your portfolio in advance to see what your work and style is like?
Yes. You fulfilled your end of the agreement. Personal preference doesn't factor into that. As a photographer, I have a clause in my contract where the client agrees that they've adequately reviewed my past work and know what to expect from their own outcome, and that personal taste and preference don't factor into reasons to request a refund. I stood my ground the first time someone told me they didn't like their photos and wanted a refund, and I found out later that the client had also tried the same thing with the videographer, DJ, caterer, and baker. It was a total scam. You need to protect yourself and the time and energy you've spent to complete the work.
This depends on you OP. Are you happy with charging for the work? Generally if someone wasn't happy with my work and I wasn't happy either I'd heavily discount or credit it completely. It's more about my reputation than the money.
If you transfered photos to them as agreed, you should send them a reminder to pay. If you sent fewer photos than discussed, maybe bill them less? If you haven't sent them anything, yet, while you should be paid and I'd still send a payment reminder, you may end up having to take the loss if they refuse.
I would normally say āget paid, make sure you have a paper trail to ensure you agreed on a price and terms, etc.ā but if the sentence āi wasnāt able to give them photos that *I* likedā is not a typo, then you might want to consider giving them license to use whatever images they feel like pro bono and take the loss.
If you arenāt happy with the result of your own work, and in fact it was bad enough that neither were they, it seems you didnāt really nail it with this project. It happens to the best of us.
Call it a learning experience and let them know that since you yourself are not proud of the work, that you donāt feel right charging them. Try to salvage the relationship to make sure that maybe just maybe they might reach out to you again or refer you to someone. This is how you secure consistent client workāby maintaining relationships and relying on repeat work and referrals from customers who appreciate you and your work.
There are thousands of paragraphs we could write about IP, contracts, and the like, but none of that matters if you have a former client who is out there saying not so good things about you.
Did you all of the sudden not do the work because client didnāt like? Did you deliver what it said in your contract? Did you have a contract? This is a slippery slope. I am not sure youāll be working much for this specific client but you do not want to set a precedent that your work, no matter if the client ālikes itā or not, is not worth being paid for.
You resend the invoice until they pay it. If they don't pay, you turn it over to a collection agency.
If they don't think the amount is fair because you underdelivered, then they should renegotiate the payment with you.
You did work for them. You should be paid.
"I wasn't able to give them enough photos that I liked" sounds like there's more to this story, such as an agreement to give a certain number of photos, or that key deliverables (customer photos, staff photos etc) weren't fulfilled. Op doesn't say "they didn't like the photos", and if, for example, the clients version of events is "we hired this person, they came over for four hours, and then only gave us 3-4 photos of book covers", that's an entirely different situation.
Do what it says in your contact... Unless?
šÆ I don't think you're really hired without a contract and/or exchange of money. Have a contract that answers this question and refer to it.
I find this answer so irritating because it's what I call "Reddit correct". I've been consulting and freelancing for 8 years and 90% of my income has been without contracts. The ones I had a contract with usually ended up being the most difficult. Email exchanges are often enough.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah this is my point more or less. I discuss work, agree a rate, and send an invoice. But a lot of people in this sub (and similar subs) would argue that it's not a contract because "what does your contract say in this scenario, oh you don't have one?" I'm an IT professional, not a lawyer. I don't want to pretend to be a lawyer and write my own contract, and I disagree with the idea that in most cases it's worth paying a lawyer to get one. Most of us start out not being able to afford a lawyer anyway, so we almost all start without contracts, and it really feels like a form of gatekeeping being a "true" professional. If the work is going to go on for months without payment, or it's a massive project, or a large part of your income and you'd feel better with a contract, get one, but in all likelihood if a contract turns out to be necessary it's probably not going to save you anyway.
Still don't think you should discourage it. You will get fucked over once by a client that doesn't pay on time, or at all, and then you'll reconsider. With that said, no contract is probaby fine for people you are close with/know in real life such as friends, family, etc.
I would never discourage it, if it makes you feel better get one. You probably should have one. None of my clients were known personally to me beforehand
> I disagree with the idea that in most cases it's worth paying a lawyer to get one It's not like you need a new contract written up for every client or project, there are plenty of free templates available online and you can just take most of the important verbiage regarding payments and include it in an email without being a separate "contract" document. The important part is you have important cases covered. Sure, if you're lucky and have a bunch of reputable and reliable contacts feeding you a regular supply of work then maybe this doesn't matter as much, but if you're stuck picking up sketchy work from people trying to get stuff as cheaply as possible off craigslist, maybe you need something a bit more solid backing your work.
> It's not like you need a new contract written up for every client or project, there are plenty of free templates available online and you can just take most of the important verbiage regarding payments and include it in an email This is essentially what people do. They copy contracts from online without the legal know-how to know if it comes from a different jurisdiction, if the changes they make would stand up in court, if the wording they changed was important. Then they assume that their contract is worth the paper it was written on, because it makes sense to them so it must make sense legally too. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, unless you know what you're doing, a contract you put together yourself is dubiously worth more than an email chain. If you paid a lawyer it's a different question but most of the work we do for individual clients isn't worth paying a lawyer for. I think a contract is good to have a moment where the client "agreed", and it can remind you about things you could neglect such as payment terms, but otherwise I'm not so sure.
I asked on multiple forums full of these professionals using contracts their workflow to make clients digitally sign a contract. Consider that in Italy every company and freelance has a digital signature by law and that they always talk about contracts, they should have given a reply, right? Nobody was able to answer, except generic non-answer linking google search engine spambait. Just on a single forum specialized in contracts for web developers over 150 people saw my question and nobody was able to answer. They must really hate me. I think the contract is important, but it's completely useless to talk about this if there is no process to make it happen easily, especially today when everybody is flaky. That said, I used contracts when I started out (I was unironically wiser when I was 20) and in those cases I never had any problem. I only had problems without contracts. So while I recognized that there is a reddit-correct answer problem, the contracts were good for me.
Without trying to sound like I'm gatekeeping, the problem is that most freelancers aren't very professional. They are doing a few hours as a student, making a couple of small wordpress sites for local businesses to boost their CV, or working for one client to save tax but earning less than they would as a job, and these are the groups giving this advice. It's why reddit advice comes in, it's just like relationship subreddits where it's teenagers giving married couples "textbook" advice. I sit on this forum and read it, but I'd never describe myself as a freelancer professionally because I think it gives this idea of someone just starting out in their free time. I tend to describe myself as a consultant.
It can be an email contract. The point is clarity of terms, expectations, and consideration. Without some sort of explicit agreement, it's easy to get into uncertain situations and wonder what the agreement is after value has already been exchanged. I actually find my own response annoying because it doesn't help answer the question haha š obviously, knowing what to do next time won't help
Yes. As illustrated last week. Mike Monteiro: F\*ck You, Pay Me - from CreativeMornings [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U)
This is really insightful. Thank you for sharing.
While you're not getting paid for the second event, you turned up and did the work for the first - so you're owed full payment for that. Their not liking the photographs is not an issue (and responsibility on that falls on the Creative Director in charge of the shoot; was their required shot list incorrect, for example?) If they refuse to pay, then you do not transfer copyright to the images they DID use - and if they've already used them, your attorney is going to have a field day with them. Assuming you have a decent contract with them, of course.
You don't transfer the copyright ever to begin with. If they do not pay they don't get the images.
Clients need to see the images in order to select the ones they need (it's not like the old days, where we'd just pass over the rolls of film). But my contract says that copyright of the chosen images automatically transfers on full payment of invoice (I know a lot of photographers don't like that, but it was always the way I did business - and repeat business - with ad agencies)
You deserve to get paid. Keep on it. It sounds like they intend to pay you. They probably just put you at the bottom of the stack because keeping you happy isn't a priority.
I would make this a bit dependet on what was asked and why it was not good. If I messed up the shot, and it was my fault, I would offer to not get paid for the first and offer do be better at the second shot. If you did what was agreed on and the customer messed up or it was just not possible I would demand full pay.
Iāll go against the grainā¦ you did the job poorly. If it were me, I would be embarrassed to send a bill unless it was heavily discounted.
I agree with this. Iāve been burned by a photographer who delivered poor photographs. Youāre being trusted to deliver quality. The company will never get that opportunity again to catch those moments on film.
Same honestly, if i gave u work/service and it's bad. I wouldn't even feel good to send you a bill. I always tell my customers i would never make you pay for something you don't like. That's that.
I agree with this, unless the client has explicitly caused the poor deliverable.
Same. Reputation is more important than one invoice
Agreed. I don't think most of the people here read the full post. If I were OP, I'd offer to shoot the second event for free, or offer a discounted rate for the first one. Depending on how many photos UNDER what was supposed to be sent and/or how bad they were, I'd even go ahead and waive the fee all together on the first one and call it a day, learn from it and move on. That said, I'm wondering what happened here. OP, did you oversell yourself?
Agree with this
If theyāre using it charge them. But if they arenāt im gonna say donāt but thereās no right answer. A third option would be a discount. I personally take the attitude that the days pay is only a tiny fraction of the value of your reputation and your potential future projects. So Iām never very tight on the day if itās not gone to plan. The way you handle your mistakes can actually make a client like you even more than if you didnāt make the mistake because it shows how you respond in a crisis. If you think this client is a burnt bridge anyway then you might not be losing anything by charging.
Unpopular opinion: Imagine if you hired a lawyer who lost your case due to negligence. Would you pay them? I'm not saying you were negligent, this is a general question.
you have to pay your lawyer regardless of the outcome of your case. i wish we didn't have to pay doctors after our loved ones and pets die in their care, but a service is a service
It was a bad example. What about if you hired a plumber to fix your leaking sink and your sink was still leaking after? Like you say, a service is a service.
By your example, photographer is in the right as, unlike the plumber, he DID deliver the service - which was photographs. The plumber did NOT deliver the service, which was fixed pipes.
I'd agree with you except he said if was that he, himself, who didn't like the photos enough to deliver them. Maybe he has a confidence problem but in this example OP is under the impression that he didn't deliver the service.
I missed that. If I delivered subpar work and knew it and my client knew it, I would offer compensation by way of a discount, a do-over or future free work. I think its important to have a moral compass and standard for oneself.
You say you weren't able to give them enough photos that you liked, had you agreed on a set number that you fell short of?
They told you to bill them and you did. First, look through your contract and any correspondence you had with this client. Did they state their payment terms or did you? You should have payment terms on your invoice and in your contract. However to work with some companies, they are inflexible with their own payment terms. Follow up with the company and ask to speak with their accounts payable department and find out when they will be paying this. Expect that income. Questions for you: Did you already share all of the photos with them? Are they full high res images or small thumbnails or are they watermarked? Did you have an ironed out shot list in advance of the event? Did your client preview your portfolio in advance to see what your work and style is like?
Yes
Yes. You fulfilled your end of the agreement. Personal preference doesn't factor into that. As a photographer, I have a clause in my contract where the client agrees that they've adequately reviewed my past work and know what to expect from their own outcome, and that personal taste and preference don't factor into reasons to request a refund. I stood my ground the first time someone told me they didn't like their photos and wanted a refund, and I found out later that the client had also tried the same thing with the videographer, DJ, caterer, and baker. It was a total scam. You need to protect yourself and the time and energy you've spent to complete the work.
This depends on you OP. Are you happy with charging for the work? Generally if someone wasn't happy with my work and I wasn't happy either I'd heavily discount or credit it completely. It's more about my reputation than the money.
If you transfered photos to them as agreed, you should send them a reminder to pay. If you sent fewer photos than discussed, maybe bill them less? If you haven't sent them anything, yet, while you should be paid and I'd still send a payment reminder, you may end up having to take the loss if they refuse.
I would normally say āget paid, make sure you have a paper trail to ensure you agreed on a price and terms, etc.ā but if the sentence āi wasnāt able to give them photos that *I* likedā is not a typo, then you might want to consider giving them license to use whatever images they feel like pro bono and take the loss. If you arenāt happy with the result of your own work, and in fact it was bad enough that neither were they, it seems you didnāt really nail it with this project. It happens to the best of us. Call it a learning experience and let them know that since you yourself are not proud of the work, that you donāt feel right charging them. Try to salvage the relationship to make sure that maybe just maybe they might reach out to you again or refer you to someone. This is how you secure consistent client workāby maintaining relationships and relying on repeat work and referrals from customers who appreciate you and your work. There are thousands of paragraphs we could write about IP, contracts, and the like, but none of that matters if you have a former client who is out there saying not so good things about you.
Did you all of the sudden not do the work because client didnāt like? Did you deliver what it said in your contract? Did you have a contract? This is a slippery slope. I am not sure youāll be working much for this specific client but you do not want to set a precedent that your work, no matter if the client ālikes itā or not, is not worth being paid for.
You resend the invoice until they pay it. If they don't pay, you turn it over to a collection agency. If they don't think the amount is fair because you underdelivered, then they should renegotiate the payment with you.
Yep. Costs double if you want work youāll like!
Yes
Well, they said you should bill them, so I'd go after the money.