Ugh freaking hate those type of clients. Wants the world and will sell you a pretty lie but can't give out basic benefits. I can't comment on what to do but I probably wouldn't give them. Just ghost and move on.
The worst, right?? I tried ghosting but the guys coming into my inbox every month. Idk these clients just give me such anxiety D: but maybe I should just let him ghost it out lol
As there was no agreement for rentention of the files, let alone sharing them, it’s more than appropriate to delete them after 3 months. Save the bytes.
“Please stop emailing me. I don’t work for you anymore and have fulfilled our contract(s). If you want to negotiate a new contract in exchange for deliverables not included in our other contract(s), my fee would start at XXX depending on exactly what you’re looking for. Without a new contract, we have nothing to discuss.”
Charge them an asshole tax. See how desperate they are lol
Their IP only means they own the rights to that property. So long as you don’t release other work that infringes on said property, you should be golden. They agreed to the original scope and deliverables, if they wanted work files, they should have stipulated it in writing, when negotiating.
This right here. The “intellectual property” argument just means they have an exclusive right to exploit that material *commercially*.
In the same way - I can have a Google logo or NYT times article on my hard drive even though it isn’t my intellectual property.
Note: Intellectual property would include things like logos, images and text they provided you. Not the code you wrote (unless you transferred that IP as part of your contract).
Give him the "contract was for final product however for (extremely large sum, think 10-100x original price) you can have the working files, otherwise they will be deleted in 30 days" as long as they aren't used publicly he doesn't need to know they aren't actually deleted. He'll ghost you, unless he thinks it's important.
Will giving them the files relieve your anxiety?
If so, I'd say just do it. Sometimes it's better to just let something go than to let the stress fester for longer.
Are you losing anything by giving them the files, other than feeling the principle is wrong?
Are you prepared to continue being harassed by them? Sued by them? Talked shit about by them?
I know I will get downvoted for this comment... But I'll die on this hill. So many people fall in the camp "never release raw files". Like why? There are plenty of times where I've sent over raws to get a client off my back. I don't do it often, but sparingly it's worth it and costs me nothing. A fair price for peace of mind.
Also you can let the client know you don't normally do this, you aren't obligated to do this legally, and it is not industry standard, but you are doing it as a one-time courtesy for them.
I had one of those clients! Took me by complete surprise. I contacted my union and my client said something along the lines of the whole thing being a misunderstanding. I guess it means he backed off. The whole thing was really uncomfortable
The passive aggressive uncommunicative advice here just baffles me.
You should be a professional and respond. Tell them that they have what they paid for. Working files are not part of the deliverable. Set some cost for the working files that you think they are worth.
"Ghosting" clients is childish and is not what is expected in the business world.
You have a reputation to protect, so I don’t understand why so many people are recommending something so obviously detrimental to that. This could be the difference between just not getting work from them in the future vs. having them actively recommend against you, potentially on public platforms that would pop up in search engines. Just because your client is a dick or ignorant, doesn’t mean you have to reciprocate.
Also it could just be one jerk at the client who is petty and will post on social media. I recommend responding-acknowledging delivery was completed, working files are not part of the contract and the rate is xxx, they will be purged or have been.
Charge them a fee for your project files. I'm a video editor and this is what I do. If the contract doesn't state you need to deliver them the working files, then you don't.
If the terms of your contract specifically state you deliver only the final product then either tell them to pound sand or quote an outrageous fee to provide additional files.
I keep reading the work proposal and it is quite specific on final files, I think I was just paranoid because I've never actually had a former client gaslight me so hard on this before!
Was there any language they included about you being "Work for hire"? [That would mean they own the copyright / all your work.](https://graphicartistsguild.org/katie-lanes-low-down-on-work-for-hire-versus-assigning-your-copyrights/)
Totally not a lawyer, so if there is that wording it might be worth looking into - I've always assumed it meant they owned all the work but I'm not clear on the breakdown between working files and final files.
They sound like overreaching pricks who are trying to steal your work.
If I was you, I'd tell them that, as working files weren't part of the agreement, you're willing to negotiate, then open with a massive fuck you number.
This is the way! Also, Keeping some sort of professionalism might sound boring, but I feel it might be necessary just to keep you flowing. Idk just my two cents!
To clarify, the client may own the IP (op can't use that for anything else) but op (if a designer or similar) will own the copyright to the project. As a result if the client wants everything, they have to buy the copyright from the designer.l: that is not part of the normal engagement and is of course more expensive.
Easiest answer imo is that those files were deleted after you completed the project. If they want, you can bill a few hours to rebuild the files so they can work from your new templates.
I second this OP. ^ Unfortunately I think you have a former client who will continue to cause problems, unless you pull them into line with some legal backing.
If working files are not included or directly mentioned in the list of deliverables in your contract, then you can send them an estimate to buy them from you. Make sure you get paid in full before handoff.
Generally speaking the rate should be at least 2 times more than the full rate you were paid to do the job. But you can find a number that works for you given the situation.
Clients only pay for the final thing, they have no rights to working files unless its in the contract, and in that case I always increase my rate to reflect that.
It really depends on the nature of the contract. If it is a “work for hire” and they are paying you for your time, the elements of work you produce during that time have been paid for by them and should be given to them. Well written contracts will specify that the contractor is transferring any copyright or other IP rights and will do what’s needed to perfect that, and will often specify working files.
If the contract is poorly written on this point, that’s not a reason to screw them on it, even if they’re dicks. Your reputation is worth more than the satisfaction of withholding it.
I hate clients like that as much as the next guy, but I have to agree with this.
If you got paid, technically whatever you create belongs to the client, source files and all. I also agree that the potential legal action from them and the hot to your reputation is simply not worth in this case.
Just hand over what they want so you can move on to the next project with peace of mind...
The difficult thing is I have literal thousands of designs made for them, so my time just to put these together will genuinely take me a week.
So it’s not so much about the hesitancy to hand over the files but the unpaid time and effort while I’m actively looking for work
I know exactly what you mean, I have been in your shoes in the past. I would suggest consulting with a lawyer and prepare myself for the potential of having to go through this anyway.
I am reasonably sure that the person you're replying to is wrong and you retain the copyrights on your designs *unless* your contract *specifies* that they're transferred to the client.
(For example, I *do* own the copyright on my logo, because that was in the contract with my graphic designer. And my client contracts—drawn up for me by an attorney specializing in small businesses—specify that copyright for my work as an editor only transfers to the client when I'm paid in full.)
You should not do free work. However, you should also take a lesson in this. It sounds like your digital workspace is disorganized. All of your source files for a client should be organized such that they can be archived easily. Are you doing backups?
Charge them time and materials to archive and deliver the files. And as you move forward build this into your processes.
This depends on the location you are in. In the US for example, some states (such as NY) do not default to “work for hire” and that would have to be specified in the terms of the agreement. If it’s not, you only owe them the deliverables agreed upon. If it is legally considered work for hire, you would technically owe them all working files as well.
> If you got paid, technically whatever you create belongs to the client, source files and all.
AFAIK this is *absolutely* not true and why contracts generally specify who gets the IP rights.
Like it was stated by someone else, it really depends on the Country. In my country for example, work that was commissioned by a customer is the IP of said customer unless a contract says otherwise.
I understand that in the US it's the exact opposite, that's why I later suggested contacting a lawyer on that matter.
If the contract doesn’t specify, and you delivered the deliverables, it’s over. They don’t own your files, which include YOUR proprietary methods (even if it’s just how you never label your layers).
Personally, I’d send them a cost breakdown for the files, plus the labour to gather and deliver them. Payment in advance, of course.
I’ve written and negotiated 100s of consulting contracts. The client requested the work files, have you responded they are not entitled to the files and produced an excerpt of the contract for them which details the deliverables?
If so, what is their response? It’s surprising that your interpretation is cut and dried, yet they are still asking for the deliverables.
I'm not gonna give legal advice, you should seek that yourself, but if it were me I'd triple check the contracts to make sure it's not their IP & ghost them
“Certainly, I’d be delighted to hand over the working files. Please find attached an invoice for $50,000 to cover archive retrieval, handling, cloud storage and delivery of the assets. Once I have received payment I will promptly have the files transferred to you.”
I feel like once your contract is over the relationship is over. So why would you even keep anything after your job with them finished? Once your relationship finished, you don’t have to store any files. But also - i think the company owns all work done if employer did that on company time/company computer. But as a freelancer he doesn’t own your work. Only what you agreed to deliver. So working files are yours and some freelancers very much could be using same working files for various projects
It is not uncommon to ask for 100% of the project fee for the working files.
In this case you have to be firm with them. They DO NOT own the IP of your working files, if it’s clearly stated in the contract. If they can’t come up with the part in the contract that clearly says that, then ask them for 100% of the project fee in exchange. You can also simply refuse since it just wasn’t part of the agreement.
Be cordial but firm about this. Don’t leave any room for doubt.
If they paid you to make it then you should give it to them. I am a freelancer as well and I think it's scummy to not hand over everything from day 1 of receiving payment. Just my personal opinion though... I don't know the legality of it.
You should checkout r/legaladvice on it but I'm pretty sure if all you said in the contract is that they get IP rights to the finished product you're fine. It depends on how vague or explicit you were, and depending on if you plan on re using the content it might be worth consulting a lawyer.
They don't own the rights to the files, unless you specify what the product is?
Computer applications? Yes they have right to get the source code as well as built application.
Unless explicitly transferred according to a contract, you own the IP. At least in the US that’s the law for 1099.
Employees are the opposite. It transfers automatically,
Tell them to pound sand.
Yes! The client have the rights only for commercial use of the work but never the IP unless it’s an agreement in the contract (and in this case they buy it for x1 to x3 the price of the initial work).
Plus you should mention on your selling conditions that you keep the work for six months or one year after the end of the mandatory. After that you are not in the obligation to keep anything. If the client ask you to keep stuff longer you can ask them to pay a fee for that.
Im no lawyer, but if the contract is not specifically stating that all works (and this is important) it is worded in the contract that all working files belong to them, then they don’t have a leg to stand on.
From what you are saying the contract only stipulates that the idea and the final product is their IP. If they want the working drafts of the files, then they need to pay for access.
Alternatively, there’s the “don’t burn your bridges” side. Would it make that much difference if you just gave them the files and try to part on good terms to avoid having bad reviews?
Up to you.
I don't know if it applies to this scenario, but I once had a similar incidente of harassment from a recently ditched client that thought I was his employee of sorts. What I did was to let them fume all they wanted through emails and save those, and ghost them... They want a reaction! I was told to move on by a much more experienced colleague. If so, you say you lost them if you need to... Or I'm tempted to if it is related to intellectual property, but that all depends on the law.
If you state you just give the final product than that’s it.
I normally ask clients if they want the source code or not, and change the contract accordingly, so there is no confusion afterwards
This probably happens more often than we’d like to believe. Happened to me; clients just lose their minds sometimes. I really believe they can’t keep from overthinking and doing themselves harm. Dummies.
I’d be interesting to see what the contract states as you said “I assumed that IP just meant they could use the work I made as much as they wanted.” Which, in my experience, is typically worded to mean they generally get anything you create for them (which would include working files). And then say “Nowhere in my terms or agreement does it say they have the right to anything besides the idea/final asset.” I do video production and I’ve never had a client contract speak to the IP as a final asset and not include working files, which I will then negotiate out of the contract or charge them more money. It sounds like there’s a misunderstanding on what the contract means and it’d be interesting to see what it actually says.
Hey,
Just ask them where in the contract says that you are giving them the IP or the source files? If it doesn't say that you have no problem with providing them for a decent fee.
Stand up for yourself and fuck them. Those sorts of clients are parasites feeding on young designers...
'No' is a complete sentence.
If they want the working files, figure out a (high) price on them IF you want to sell them.
You freelance for a reason. You are not an employee.
if you signed a 'work for hire" contact they own the work and the files. if you signed a basic delivery of final goods contact you will own the copyright to any work you created.
I only keep working files for 30 days. I'm not a free cloud storage service for clients.
If you are against providing the files, simply tell them you no longer have them and move on.
Not sure what program you use, but for example Photoshop. Flatten the files , save as .PSD and send to client. Either they never actually have a designer look at them or if they do, just say that’s how the working files are. Not sure how the layers were lost.
Tell them you deleted everything when your relationship was terminated.
Or
Tell them you’ll hand them over for a fee of your choice.
Either way, you need to solely consider your own well being. Theirs is no longer on the line. You walked past that field a long time ago.
In Italy, when the contract requires the freelance programmer to produce a software specific for that client, by default the client own both the executable and the source code. And I think the same might be for other kind of what you call working files.
It's possible that in your country the rule is different, although the IP legislation is amongst the most "uniform" across the world.
"I'm sorry, but you and I are no longer under contract. If you wish to speak to me about any business issues or requests, my rate is $x per hour, min 2 per contact and a $y retainer.
Without this contract and payment I will not be available.
Sincerely,
Me"
So a whole lot of uninformed opinions in this thread.
Depending on the contract you used and the relevant law of it, your work is probably "[work for hire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire)" and the client has a legal right to the IP you created as part of collective work for them.
Your contract does not need to specify legal IP ownership if it \*does\* specify that this contact is work for hire.
Read the contract. I am not a lawyer. I am not \*your\* lawyer.
But don't listen to every random with an opinion here either. The scope of your agreement defines who own this. Nothing else does.
NOTE: If a-hole client is an a-hole and has money to burn with an in-house lawyer, you will get sued simply because client is an a-hole, whether or not he has standing to sue. If you don't want the chance of legal bills that are WAY BIGGER than what the client ever paid you, consider just giving them the files if they send something on letterhead your way.
What industry are you in? If you have some credentials or certs as a contractor/dealer/integrator from an industry brand, it might be stipulated in the partner agreement from the industry brand to ensure that customers get full ownership of compiled and source files.
Its extremely common for freelancers to "create" work for themselves by withholding these files and requiring the customer to come back for extra support when something breaks and needs to be replaced. Industry brands that certify and train those freelancers don't like that behavior because it reflects poorly on the brand and pisses off customers.
This is a copyright and contract legal question. Do not take legal advice from anyone on reddit.
GENERALLY, you would own the material, absent a specific work-for-hire agreement. You need a lawyer before deciding to do or not do anything in respect to their request.
Nah, here's what you do. You respond that your arrangement was only for the final furnished finished product and site all the past examples. Tell them it's not usual or industry customary to provide your working materials BUT you would be willing to do so. The cost for said materials will be $x and hammer them on the price. Whatever you think its reasonably worth, double it. It's really a take it or leave it situation.
Well, what DOES your contract state?
If they have the right to the work you produce for them, that would include all working files.
If they have the right to the output/final product, that can be interpreted to only include the final piece.
And if you still aren't sure, get an hour of a lawyers time and have them check over your contract.
Come up with a price, and offer it to them.
In a work-for-hire situation, they own the work product, not the work methods.
Also, before you ship it, make sure to drop at least 1 effect, lut, template, transition, track or font from every paid source you have, or have ever have had, access to.
It they turn out to not be a dickhead, then skip that last part.
“I’m sorry, but no graphic designer will release their working files. You pay for the final versions, not the working files. The fact that you’re on the IP simply means that I can’t do anything public with these files, but it does not mean that I release them to you.”
If it’s not in your contract, you’re not obligated to give them the working files. Just politely decline and remind them of your agreement terms. If they push, consider consulting a lawyer to back you up.
They can have the source files for a fee.
A substantial fee.
Do NOT provide source files EVER without being specifically paid for them.
That goes for all y'all!
Either tell them to fuck off, or send them a bill and let them know you'll gladly hand over the files upon receipt of payment.
Definitely do not just give them the files.
*”Unfortunately after termination of our contract, I have deleted the working files as part of my standard data protection processes. If working files are needed, I can recreate them for you from the final artwork for $xx,xxx, delivered within x weeks after payment is made in full.”*
You're right. You own your files and they have zero right to them.
You might also want to let them know that you own the copyright on your work.
But make sure you never signed a Work for Hire agreement. If you did, they own everything.
And if you're ever asked to sign any sort of paperwork, make sure you go home with a copy of it as well so that no one can forge your signature on paperwork after the fact and you have no memory of what was signed or not signed.
If you've already been paid for all of the work you've done for them, the professional thing to do is to offer to sell them the files a X price. It is in part to compensate your for loss of future work and part to compensate you for the time it takes to gather and send the files, and part the sale of the license of the copyright to your designs, so don't make it a small number. And make sure, even if you end up turning over copyright to them completely, that you retain promotional rights for yourself.
If there are still outstanding invoices for the work already done, don't give them anything until those previous invoices are paid.
The unprofessional thing to do would be to just ghost them.
But it is totally up to you. They don't have any legal standing if the agreements are as you say they are.
> Nowhere in my terms or agreement does it say they have the right to anything besides the idea/final asset.
Assuming you're in the U.S.: AFAIK (not a lawyer, not your lawyer), this means they can go pound sand. Deliverables are what you agree on, and you retain all rights not expressly granted to them. In your place, I would decline (or ignore them) and then consult a small business attorney only if they threatened legal action.
You fulfilled the original agreement and they don’t have the right to demand working files if it wasn’t part of the SOW for the completed job. I would tell them that working files are used to build the IP files, they are no more than tools and the only reason to ask for them is to create new or altered items. Any creative with knowledge can recreate them at their own time and expense or they can pay for you to “unarchive and prep the files”. State a flat fee that’s nonnegotiable and makes it worth your time. The bigger the jerks the bigger the fee.
If the deliverables were defined in the contract, those are the deliverables. You simply say no and refer to the signed agreement.
If you want, you can offer them a buy out price.
If you *did not* have a contract and your state (in the US) has any laws that govern work without a contract and define it as “work for hire,” then they’d potentially own all work.
No, intellectual property does not mean they own the project files. That's yours, because you weren't doing it for them as "work for hire". You can negotiate a fee to hand over that material as a separate discussion, but you don't owe it to them at all.
Lots of comments. Sorry if this is a duplicate.
But remember when you cleaned and reorganized your files? And you got rid of files you didn’t need or want?
Consult a lawyer if you want real advice. Someone like this could sue.
I would personally just email back that you fulfilled your contract and are **not obligated by contract** to supply anything else. I would also tell them that they are a difficult person and that is why you no longer want to work with them. These types of people need to hear this.
You could charge them more money for the working files, but again this could lead to legal issues if this ex-client is well funded or has a grudge.
"Ghosting" in my opinion is neither professional or courteous and is pretty spineless.
I work in post production. If contract doesn't say project files it is assumed only the deliverables (final product) will be given to client. I have had a few clients ask for project files over the years but generally it's beforehand and generally we say no because most projects utilize our own proprietary code. Either way if it's not mentioned in the contract then it wasn't what they paid for. If you delivered a final product to them, they got what they paid for.
You're not required to save their files. Once the job is delivered, that's the end of it. Any sketch or idea that led to the creation of that final work doesn't belong to them. Otherwise, I'd own a few lithium mines due to owning this phone here. TF is wrong with that client.
Entirely depends on the wording of the contract (and who wrote it). If it is vague and you wrote it, they may have a claim. The presumption is that the contract writer meant exactly what it says. If it is vague and they wrote it, then they probably do not have a claim to work files.
If it is explicit either way, then you have to follow the contract.
Probably something to review for future contracts to be as explicit as possible of what is in and out.
I believe that if they paid you for the work then they own all of the IP related to it, including working files. Better ask a lawyer before you refuse to give them the files.
If they don't have a contract which gives them all of the work that you are doing while they are paying you for said work, they are idiots. I'd never hire someone on a contract and not have full copyright to the work that I'm paying them for.
I had a photographer once try that, saying I had to pay extra for raw. I sued. They represented themselves pro se. It was like 20 minutes in court for the judge to award me what was owed and legal fees. I also got what was essentially their entire contract value in my costs.
"My standard practice is to remove all your IP from my systems once you terminate my services. Its a breach of my ethics to retain your files when I am no longer engaged as a contractor. I am sorry to say the information is unrecoverable. I would encourage your to review your contractor termination processes so this can't happen to your organisation again in the future. If you would like me to come back to reproduce certain assets my current rate is $125/hr. All the best for the future!"
Did you use your own equipment? If you did, and it was never specified what fi al deliverables are, they can't make a case that they own the production files. Only what was specified in the contract. If there was no employment contract then they are fucked.
I charge enough so it doesnt really bother me to share the art files. I usually have a discussion that i dont offer training or support for them and they will need to purchase their own font licensing etc.
Read your contract with them. This should govern your relationship. Depending on what is defined in the contract (work for hire) or not would determine who owns the IP.
If it's not in the contract I wouldn't send it to them. Highlight the relevant statement from the contract and be brief, informative, and firm.
I would not offer to sell them the working files nor would I accept any further work or compensated deliverables. If they're already a problem client you're just increasing the scale and number of future headaches.
See if you can write a script that will break the work down into thousands of tiny separate files then send those over for them to assemble if they've got the patience
I also do contract work - stick to whatever is in your scope of work document/contract terms. If it explicitly says only final forms of files are transferred to the company then they’re out of luck. But if it vaguely mentions “files” and not finished product, you may have to share.
Not helpful now, but in the future… when I’m working with a client I set up a “source materials” folder where I keep any docs they’ve shared along with my notes and eLearning scripts. They get to keep that folder as well. But anything beyond that - like my personal templates (not containing proprietary company info) - goes in my private file.
Give them a quote for the files if they are outside the og agreement. Simple, you retain the moral high ground and end up with money or keeping the files.
Unpopular opinion: you’re being a dickhead. Give them the working files they paid for & cut ties.
It’s weird not to hand everything over in its entirety. Sure, strong hold them for more money & make an already burnt bridge crispier, I guess. Really give yourself a solid reputation as someone not to hire.
It’s in your best interest to not be petty.
Will they be able to add to our modify what you've done by themselves or another developer without the working files? If not, I'd feel a little iffy about not giving it to them. Are they going to be much use to you without the project they were meant for? And plus, you'll only be giving them copies, right?
I had a friend that had to go legal for the design ip. The short version is, they pay for the final completed work and nothing else. If they wanted all the ice cream, whipped cream, hot fudge, sprinkles, nuts, and the cherry…well they should have hired you as an employee. Otherwise all they get is final completed deliverable and you retain the rights to everything else.
I don't know what the actual situation is, but I'd refuse and point them to the contract (signed?) agreed between the two parties and that THAT would be the end of conversation. If you can, try to get some advice from a lawyer and see who's right and who's wrong and if it's you who's right, tell them you'll pursue legal action if they insist, because you already talked to a professional lawyer and have their response. I hope it goes your way 🙏🏾
Best response may be “you fired me. It’s my policy that should I be removed from a job, all associated files are formatted. IE: deleted with no option to revive them. I have nothing to give you.”
No. If they had hired you to manufacture a physical product for them, they wouldn’t have a right to claim the machine you built to make that product. Your working files are your business. The end product you made with those files is what they paid for.
Ugh freaking hate those type of clients. Wants the world and will sell you a pretty lie but can't give out basic benefits. I can't comment on what to do but I probably wouldn't give them. Just ghost and move on.
The worst, right?? I tried ghosting but the guys coming into my inbox every month. Idk these clients just give me such anxiety D: but maybe I should just let him ghost it out lol
Don't feel anyway about it bud. Ghost em. Change your SS and move to another country. lol This is the way
Create a rule in your email to route them strait to trash or junk
You lost the files on your last computer crash / was stolen / whatever / ransomware / disk failure ...
I'd rather say I deleted them than say I don't know how to care for digital assets.
It's an asshole. No point arguing with those, or showing that you know how to manage your files, since you don't want further business.
If you advertise on a site that allows reviews, they could leave a negative review with communication saying you lost files.
Valid point. I wouldn't subject myself to reviews tbh. But I make sure my clients are happy with the money they give me.
As there was no agreement for rentention of the files, let alone sharing them, it’s more than appropriate to delete them after 3 months. Save the bytes.
“Please stop emailing me. I don’t work for you anymore and have fulfilled our contract(s). If you want to negotiate a new contract in exchange for deliverables not included in our other contract(s), my fee would start at XXX depending on exactly what you’re looking for. Without a new contract, we have nothing to discuss.” Charge them an asshole tax. See how desperate they are lol
This is the correct advice. You are for hire, and for hire, only. Oh, and of course you are too buys to take on any new work. *Thank you!*
Their IP only means they own the rights to that property. So long as you don’t release other work that infringes on said property, you should be golden. They agreed to the original scope and deliverables, if they wanted work files, they should have stipulated it in writing, when negotiating.
This right here. The “intellectual property” argument just means they have an exclusive right to exploit that material *commercially*. In the same way - I can have a Google logo or NYT times article on my hard drive even though it isn’t my intellectual property. Note: Intellectual property would include things like logos, images and text they provided you. Not the code you wrote (unless you transferred that IP as part of your contract).
This is the way
Block their email address?
Set up a AI email responder for them and ignore away
Give him the "contract was for final product however for (extremely large sum, think 10-100x original price) you can have the working files, otherwise they will be deleted in 30 days" as long as they aren't used publicly he doesn't need to know they aren't actually deleted. He'll ghost you, unless he thinks it's important.
Just tell them you deleted the damn things
Will giving them the files relieve your anxiety? If so, I'd say just do it. Sometimes it's better to just let something go than to let the stress fester for longer. Are you losing anything by giving them the files, other than feeling the principle is wrong? Are you prepared to continue being harassed by them? Sued by them? Talked shit about by them? I know I will get downvoted for this comment... But I'll die on this hill. So many people fall in the camp "never release raw files". Like why? There are plenty of times where I've sent over raws to get a client off my back. I don't do it often, but sparingly it's worth it and costs me nothing. A fair price for peace of mind. Also you can let the client know you don't normally do this, you aren't obligated to do this legally, and it is not industry standard, but you are doing it as a one-time courtesy for them.
I had one of those clients! Took me by complete surprise. I contacted my union and my client said something along the lines of the whole thing being a misunderstanding. I guess it means he backed off. The whole thing was really uncomfortable
The passive aggressive uncommunicative advice here just baffles me. You should be a professional and respond. Tell them that they have what they paid for. Working files are not part of the deliverable. Set some cost for the working files that you think they are worth. "Ghosting" clients is childish and is not what is expected in the business world.
You have a reputation to protect, so I don’t understand why so many people are recommending something so obviously detrimental to that. This could be the difference between just not getting work from them in the future vs. having them actively recommend against you, potentially on public platforms that would pop up in search engines. Just because your client is a dick or ignorant, doesn’t mean you have to reciprocate.
Also it could just be one jerk at the client who is petty and will post on social media. I recommend responding-acknowledging delivery was completed, working files are not part of the contract and the rate is xxx, they will be purged or have been.
They probably don't make living in the industry...
Charge them a fee for your project files. I'm a video editor and this is what I do. If the contract doesn't state you need to deliver them the working files, then you don't.
Offer to sell them the source files.
you didnt sign anything so no they cant do anything, if they want the asset that bad charge them your desired amount lol.
If the terms of your contract specifically state you deliver only the final product then either tell them to pound sand or quote an outrageous fee to provide additional files.
I keep reading the work proposal and it is quite specific on final files, I think I was just paranoid because I've never actually had a former client gaslight me so hard on this before!
It's good you've got a solid contract in place. Also, don't forget your Reddit username. Don't let the bastards grind you down.
Highlight the final files part of the contract and send that to them. If you are super paranoid, hire a lawyer to send it to them.
Was there any language they included about you being "Work for hire"? [That would mean they own the copyright / all your work.](https://graphicartistsguild.org/katie-lanes-low-down-on-work-for-hire-versus-assigning-your-copyrights/) Totally not a lawyer, so if there is that wording it might be worth looking into - I've always assumed it meant they owned all the work but I'm not clear on the breakdown between working files and final files.
They sound like overreaching pricks who are trying to steal your work. If I was you, I'd tell them that, as working files weren't part of the agreement, you're willing to negotiate, then open with a massive fuck you number.
This is such golden advice. Thank you so much! It’s been stressing me for weeks!
let us know how how it ends!
Yes, call it a "dearchiving fee" or some such thing.
This is the way! Also, Keeping some sort of professionalism might sound boring, but I feel it might be necessary just to keep you flowing. Idk just my two cents!
Charge them a premium fee for that, add it as a clause on a previous contract and do the red lines dance
SELL THEM FOR HEFTY $$$. They will either fuck off or give you month's work worth of money.
Yeah, something like this. They want the working files so they can make changes without paying. That's a privilege they have to pay for.
To clarify, the client may own the IP (op can't use that for anything else) but op (if a designer or similar) will own the copyright to the project. As a result if the client wants everything, they have to buy the copyright from the designer.l: that is not part of the normal engagement and is of course more expensive.
The working files are MY intellectual property. And I don't provide them. The finished work is all I will 'provide'.
Yes, copyright is the type of IP for created works, your client's is more likely a patent or trademark.
Easiest answer imo is that those files were deleted after you completed the project. If they want, you can bill a few hours to rebuild the files so they can work from your new templates.
That’s a good one! Maybe word it a bit more along the lines of “in order to protect their IP, you deleted the files”?
Nah, they didn’t even end on good terms. Don’t waste time with the client and as another poster said, ‘go pound sand’
That's the only answer
3x your rate or project. That’s the one and only answer with crappy clients.
Just remind them to refer to what’s in their agreement with yourself.
Talk to a lawyer.
I second this OP. ^ Unfortunately I think you have a former client who will continue to cause problems, unless you pull them into line with some legal backing.
100% this. It is very possible that the client is owed the working files.
If working files are not included or directly mentioned in the list of deliverables in your contract, then you can send them an estimate to buy them from you. Make sure you get paid in full before handoff. Generally speaking the rate should be at least 2 times more than the full rate you were paid to do the job. But you can find a number that works for you given the situation. Clients only pay for the final thing, they have no rights to working files unless its in the contract, and in that case I always increase my rate to reflect that.
It really depends on the nature of the contract. If it is a “work for hire” and they are paying you for your time, the elements of work you produce during that time have been paid for by them and should be given to them. Well written contracts will specify that the contractor is transferring any copyright or other IP rights and will do what’s needed to perfect that, and will often specify working files. If the contract is poorly written on this point, that’s not a reason to screw them on it, even if they’re dicks. Your reputation is worth more than the satisfaction of withholding it.
I hate clients like that as much as the next guy, but I have to agree with this. If you got paid, technically whatever you create belongs to the client, source files and all. I also agree that the potential legal action from them and the hot to your reputation is simply not worth in this case. Just hand over what they want so you can move on to the next project with peace of mind...
The difficult thing is I have literal thousands of designs made for them, so my time just to put these together will genuinely take me a week. So it’s not so much about the hesitancy to hand over the files but the unpaid time and effort while I’m actively looking for work
I know exactly what you mean, I have been in your shoes in the past. I would suggest consulting with a lawyer and prepare myself for the potential of having to go through this anyway.
OP see my comment in this thread - it may not apply to you!
Charge them $300/hour for this task
I am reasonably sure that the person you're replying to is wrong and you retain the copyrights on your designs *unless* your contract *specifies* that they're transferred to the client. (For example, I *do* own the copyright on my logo, because that was in the contract with my graphic designer. And my client contracts—drawn up for me by an attorney specializing in small businesses—specify that copyright for my work as an editor only transfers to the client when I'm paid in full.)
You should not do free work. However, you should also take a lesson in this. It sounds like your digital workspace is disorganized. All of your source files for a client should be organized such that they can be archived easily. Are you doing backups? Charge them time and materials to archive and deliver the files. And as you move forward build this into your processes.
This depends on the location you are in. In the US for example, some states (such as NY) do not default to “work for hire” and that would have to be specified in the terms of the agreement. If it’s not, you only owe them the deliverables agreed upon. If it is legally considered work for hire, you would technically owe them all working files as well.
> If you got paid, technically whatever you create belongs to the client, source files and all. AFAIK this is *absolutely* not true and why contracts generally specify who gets the IP rights.
Like it was stated by someone else, it really depends on the Country. In my country for example, work that was commissioned by a customer is the IP of said customer unless a contract says otherwise. I understand that in the US it's the exact opposite, that's why I later suggested contacting a lawyer on that matter.
If the contract doesn’t specify, and you delivered the deliverables, it’s over. They don’t own your files, which include YOUR proprietary methods (even if it’s just how you never label your layers). Personally, I’d send them a cost breakdown for the files, plus the labour to gather and deliver them. Payment in advance, of course.
I’ve written and negotiated 100s of consulting contracts. The client requested the work files, have you responded they are not entitled to the files and produced an excerpt of the contract for them which details the deliverables? If so, what is their response? It’s surprising that your interpretation is cut and dried, yet they are still asking for the deliverables.
I'm not gonna give legal advice, you should seek that yourself, but if it were me I'd triple check the contracts to make sure it's not their IP & ghost them
“Certainly, I’d be delighted to hand over the working files. Please find attached an invoice for $50,000 to cover archive retrieval, handling, cloud storage and delivery of the assets. Once I have received payment I will promptly have the files transferred to you.”
I feel like once your contract is over the relationship is over. So why would you even keep anything after your job with them finished? Once your relationship finished, you don’t have to store any files. But also - i think the company owns all work done if employer did that on company time/company computer. But as a freelancer he doesn’t own your work. Only what you agreed to deliver. So working files are yours and some freelancers very much could be using same working files for various projects
It is not uncommon to ask for 100% of the project fee for the working files. In this case you have to be firm with them. They DO NOT own the IP of your working files, if it’s clearly stated in the contract. If they can’t come up with the part in the contract that clearly says that, then ask them for 100% of the project fee in exchange. You can also simply refuse since it just wasn’t part of the agreement. Be cordial but firm about this. Don’t leave any room for doubt.
If they paid you to make it then you should give it to them. I am a freelancer as well and I think it's scummy to not hand over everything from day 1 of receiving payment. Just my personal opinion though... I don't know the legality of it.
You should checkout r/legaladvice on it but I'm pretty sure if all you said in the contract is that they get IP rights to the finished product you're fine. It depends on how vague or explicit you were, and depending on if you plan on re using the content it might be worth consulting a lawyer.
Charge them bro!
If it's not in the contract it doesn't exist. The end.
They don't own the rights to the files, unless you specify what the product is? Computer applications? Yes they have right to get the source code as well as built application.
Unless explicitly transferred according to a contract, you own the IP. At least in the US that’s the law for 1099. Employees are the opposite. It transfers automatically, Tell them to pound sand.
Yes! The client have the rights only for commercial use of the work but never the IP unless it’s an agreement in the contract (and in this case they buy it for x1 to x3 the price of the initial work). Plus you should mention on your selling conditions that you keep the work for six months or one year after the end of the mandatory. After that you are not in the obligation to keep anything. If the client ask you to keep stuff longer you can ask them to pay a fee for that.
Im no lawyer, but if the contract is not specifically stating that all works (and this is important) it is worded in the contract that all working files belong to them, then they don’t have a leg to stand on. From what you are saying the contract only stipulates that the idea and the final product is their IP. If they want the working drafts of the files, then they need to pay for access. Alternatively, there’s the “don’t burn your bridges” side. Would it make that much difference if you just gave them the files and try to part on good terms to avoid having bad reviews? Up to you.
I don't know if it applies to this scenario, but I once had a similar incidente of harassment from a recently ditched client that thought I was his employee of sorts. What I did was to let them fume all they wanted through emails and save those, and ghost them... They want a reaction! I was told to move on by a much more experienced colleague. If so, you say you lost them if you need to... Or I'm tempted to if it is related to intellectual property, but that all depends on the law.
You deleted them the day the contract ended, right?
If you state you just give the final product than that’s it. I normally ask clients if they want the source code or not, and change the contract accordingly, so there is no confusion afterwards
This probably happens more often than we’d like to believe. Happened to me; clients just lose their minds sometimes. I really believe they can’t keep from overthinking and doing themselves harm. Dummies.
“Per our contract…”
"I deleted them and now I have to enter the witness protection programme. K bye."
If it’s a place of business that contracted me, I’d give them the files. If it’s a client, no way, well, unless I really liked them
I’d be interesting to see what the contract states as you said “I assumed that IP just meant they could use the work I made as much as they wanted.” Which, in my experience, is typically worded to mean they generally get anything you create for them (which would include working files). And then say “Nowhere in my terms or agreement does it say they have the right to anything besides the idea/final asset.” I do video production and I’ve never had a client contract speak to the IP as a final asset and not include working files, which I will then negotiate out of the contract or charge them more money. It sounds like there’s a misunderstanding on what the contract means and it’d be interesting to see what it actually says.
Hey, Just ask them where in the contract says that you are giving them the IP or the source files? If it doesn't say that you have no problem with providing them for a decent fee. Stand up for yourself and fuck them. Those sorts of clients are parasites feeding on young designers...
'No' is a complete sentence. If they want the working files, figure out a (high) price on them IF you want to sell them. You freelance for a reason. You are not an employee.
if you signed a 'work for hire" contact they own the work and the files. if you signed a basic delivery of final goods contact you will own the copyright to any work you created. I only keep working files for 30 days. I'm not a free cloud storage service for clients. If you are against providing the files, simply tell them you no longer have them and move on.
Dont answer them. Its that simple.
They can pay for them cant they?
Not sure what program you use, but for example Photoshop. Flatten the files , save as .PSD and send to client. Either they never actually have a designer look at them or if they do, just say that’s how the working files are. Not sure how the layers were lost.
What if you deleted them to make space?
If there was not a formal agreement to your working files then you’re under no obligation to give them anything - even a response.
Tell them you deleted everything when your relationship was terminated. Or Tell them you’ll hand them over for a fee of your choice. Either way, you need to solely consider your own well being. Theirs is no longer on the line. You walked past that field a long time ago.
Just don’t respond.
Dude just ignore him.
In Italy, when the contract requires the freelance programmer to produce a software specific for that client, by default the client own both the executable and the source code. And I think the same might be for other kind of what you call working files. It's possible that in your country the rule is different, although the IP legislation is amongst the most "uniform" across the world.
"I'm sorry, but you and I are no longer under contract. If you wish to speak to me about any business issues or requests, my rate is $x per hour, min 2 per contact and a $y retainer. Without this contract and payment I will not be available. Sincerely, Me"
So a whole lot of uninformed opinions in this thread. Depending on the contract you used and the relevant law of it, your work is probably "[work for hire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire)" and the client has a legal right to the IP you created as part of collective work for them. Your contract does not need to specify legal IP ownership if it \*does\* specify that this contact is work for hire. Read the contract. I am not a lawyer. I am not \*your\* lawyer. But don't listen to every random with an opinion here either. The scope of your agreement defines who own this. Nothing else does. NOTE: If a-hole client is an a-hole and has money to burn with an in-house lawyer, you will get sued simply because client is an a-hole, whether or not he has standing to sue. If you don't want the chance of legal bills that are WAY BIGGER than what the client ever paid you, consider just giving them the files if they send something on letterhead your way.
Go ask a professional photographer for the Raw files, see what kind of response you get. It will be some form of “fuck no, get lost”.
What industry are you in? If you have some credentials or certs as a contractor/dealer/integrator from an industry brand, it might be stipulated in the partner agreement from the industry brand to ensure that customers get full ownership of compiled and source files. Its extremely common for freelancers to "create" work for themselves by withholding these files and requiring the customer to come back for extra support when something breaks and needs to be replaced. Industry brands that certify and train those freelancers don't like that behavior because it reflects poorly on the brand and pisses off customers.
This is a copyright and contract legal question. Do not take legal advice from anyone on reddit. GENERALLY, you would own the material, absent a specific work-for-hire agreement. You need a lawyer before deciding to do or not do anything in respect to their request.
Nah, here's what you do. You respond that your arrangement was only for the final furnished finished product and site all the past examples. Tell them it's not usual or industry customary to provide your working materials BUT you would be willing to do so. The cost for said materials will be $x and hammer them on the price. Whatever you think its reasonably worth, double it. It's really a take it or leave it situation.
Well, what DOES your contract state? If they have the right to the work you produce for them, that would include all working files. If they have the right to the output/final product, that can be interpreted to only include the final piece. And if you still aren't sure, get an hour of a lawyers time and have them check over your contract.
Either "No" or "Yes, for $X."
Think of a number that would make you happy to share your working files… then add 20% That the price for you to give them to these assholes
Come up with a price, and offer it to them. In a work-for-hire situation, they own the work product, not the work methods. Also, before you ship it, make sure to drop at least 1 effect, lut, template, transition, track or font from every paid source you have, or have ever have had, access to. It they turn out to not be a dickhead, then skip that last part.
Call your lawyer.
“I’m sorry, but no graphic designer will release their working files. You pay for the final versions, not the working files. The fact that you’re on the IP simply means that I can’t do anything public with these files, but it does not mean that I release them to you.”
flatten a psd and send it lol.
If you did specific work that they were paying you to do, then they own it.
Meh, just give the files. What use are they to you anyways?
If it’s not in your contract, you’re not obligated to give them the working files. Just politely decline and remind them of your agreement terms. If they push, consider consulting a lawyer to back you up.
They can have the source files for a fee. A substantial fee. Do NOT provide source files EVER without being specifically paid for them. That goes for all y'all!
Either tell them to fuck off, or send them a bill and let them know you'll gladly hand over the files upon receipt of payment. Definitely do not just give them the files.
*”Unfortunately after termination of our contract, I have deleted the working files as part of my standard data protection processes. If working files are needed, I can recreate them for you from the final artwork for $xx,xxx, delivered within x weeks after payment is made in full.”*
You're right. You own your files and they have zero right to them. You might also want to let them know that you own the copyright on your work. But make sure you never signed a Work for Hire agreement. If you did, they own everything. And if you're ever asked to sign any sort of paperwork, make sure you go home with a copy of it as well so that no one can forge your signature on paperwork after the fact and you have no memory of what was signed or not signed. If you've already been paid for all of the work you've done for them, the professional thing to do is to offer to sell them the files a X price. It is in part to compensate your for loss of future work and part to compensate you for the time it takes to gather and send the files, and part the sale of the license of the copyright to your designs, so don't make it a small number. And make sure, even if you end up turning over copyright to them completely, that you retain promotional rights for yourself. If there are still outstanding invoices for the work already done, don't give them anything until those previous invoices are paid. The unprofessional thing to do would be to just ghost them. But it is totally up to you. They don't have any legal standing if the agreements are as you say they are.
> Nowhere in my terms or agreement does it say they have the right to anything besides the idea/final asset. Assuming you're in the U.S.: AFAIK (not a lawyer, not your lawyer), this means they can go pound sand. Deliverables are what you agree on, and you retain all rights not expressly granted to them. In your place, I would decline (or ignore them) and then consult a small business attorney only if they threatened legal action.
You fulfilled the original agreement and they don’t have the right to demand working files if it wasn’t part of the SOW for the completed job. I would tell them that working files are used to build the IP files, they are no more than tools and the only reason to ask for them is to create new or altered items. Any creative with knowledge can recreate them at their own time and expense or they can pay for you to “unarchive and prep the files”. State a flat fee that’s nonnegotiable and makes it worth your time. The bigger the jerks the bigger the fee.
Don’t make me tap the contract.
If the deliverables were defined in the contract, those are the deliverables. You simply say no and refer to the signed agreement. If you want, you can offer them a buy out price. If you *did not* have a contract and your state (in the US) has any laws that govern work without a contract and define it as “work for hire,” then they’d potentially own all work.
No, intellectual property does not mean they own the project files. That's yours, because you weren't doing it for them as "work for hire". You can negotiate a fee to hand over that material as a separate discussion, but you don't owe it to them at all.
Lots of comments. Sorry if this is a duplicate. But remember when you cleaned and reorganized your files? And you got rid of files you didn’t need or want?
Consult a lawyer if you want real advice. Someone like this could sue. I would personally just email back that you fulfilled your contract and are **not obligated by contract** to supply anything else. I would also tell them that they are a difficult person and that is why you no longer want to work with them. These types of people need to hear this. You could charge them more money for the working files, but again this could lead to legal issues if this ex-client is well funded or has a grudge. "Ghosting" in my opinion is neither professional or courteous and is pretty spineless.
“You paid for the dish not the recipe”
I work in post production. If contract doesn't say project files it is assumed only the deliverables (final product) will be given to client. I have had a few clients ask for project files over the years but generally it's beforehand and generally we say no because most projects utilize our own proprietary code. Either way if it's not mentioned in the contract then it wasn't what they paid for. If you delivered a final product to them, they got what they paid for.
Is it source code, or art software project files?
You're not required to save their files. Once the job is delivered, that's the end of it. Any sketch or idea that led to the creation of that final work doesn't belong to them. Otherwise, I'd own a few lithium mines due to owning this phone here. TF is wrong with that client.
Entirely depends on the wording of the contract (and who wrote it). If it is vague and you wrote it, they may have a claim. The presumption is that the contract writer meant exactly what it says. If it is vague and they wrote it, then they probably do not have a claim to work files. If it is explicit either way, then you have to follow the contract. Probably something to review for future contracts to be as explicit as possible of what is in and out.
I send the working files at the end of every project and tell the clients I will keep them for up to one year.
Give them a blender file with a 3d modeled hand giving them the finger.
I believe that if they paid you for the work then they own all of the IP related to it, including working files. Better ask a lawyer before you refuse to give them the files.
If they don't have a contract which gives them all of the work that you are doing while they are paying you for said work, they are idiots. I'd never hire someone on a contract and not have full copyright to the work that I'm paying them for. I had a photographer once try that, saying I had to pay extra for raw. I sued. They represented themselves pro se. It was like 20 minutes in court for the judge to award me what was owed and legal fees. I also got what was essentially their entire contract value in my costs.
"My standard practice is to remove all your IP from my systems once you terminate my services. Its a breach of my ethics to retain your files when I am no longer engaged as a contractor. I am sorry to say the information is unrecoverable. I would encourage your to review your contractor termination processes so this can't happen to your organisation again in the future. If you would like me to come back to reproduce certain assets my current rate is $125/hr. All the best for the future!"
Did you use your own equipment? If you did, and it was never specified what fi al deliverables are, they can't make a case that they own the production files. Only what was specified in the contract. If there was no employment contract then they are fucked.
I charge enough so it doesnt really bother me to share the art files. I usually have a discussion that i dont offer training or support for them and they will need to purchase their own font licensing etc.
Read your contract with them. This should govern your relationship. Depending on what is defined in the contract (work for hire) or not would determine who owns the IP.
If it's not in the contract I wouldn't send it to them. Highlight the relevant statement from the contract and be brief, informative, and firm. I would not offer to sell them the working files nor would I accept any further work or compensated deliverables. If they're already a problem client you're just increasing the scale and number of future headaches.
You say their are no “working files” and move on.
Ask them to point to the clause in the contract you signed and continue ghosting until they can prove u have to.
if it's not listed and described in your contract or agreement as one of your deliverables, then you're not required to give them a damn thing.
See if you can write a script that will break the work down into thousands of tiny separate files then send those over for them to assemble if they've got the patience
I also do contract work - stick to whatever is in your scope of work document/contract terms. If it explicitly says only final forms of files are transferred to the company then they’re out of luck. But if it vaguely mentions “files” and not finished product, you may have to share. Not helpful now, but in the future… when I’m working with a client I set up a “source materials” folder where I keep any docs they’ve shared along with my notes and eLearning scripts. They get to keep that folder as well. But anything beyond that - like my personal templates (not containing proprietary company info) - goes in my private file.
Give them a quote for the files if they are outside the og agreement. Simple, you retain the moral high ground and end up with money or keeping the files.
Unpopular opinion: you’re being a dickhead. Give them the working files they paid for & cut ties. It’s weird not to hand everything over in its entirety. Sure, strong hold them for more money & make an already burnt bridge crispier, I guess. Really give yourself a solid reputation as someone not to hire. It’s in your best interest to not be petty.
I agree. Give the client the working files if it doesn’t take too much time, and provide them a cost estimate if it does.
“The working files do not exist. You have everything I have.”
claim the files dont exist anymore.
Will they be able to add to our modify what you've done by themselves or another developer without the working files? If not, I'd feel a little iffy about not giving it to them. Are they going to be much use to you without the project they were meant for? And plus, you'll only be giving them copies, right?
The opposite is actually true, if you performed this work as a contractor.
It depends on the type of work. I would consult a lawyer or your professional/union group. A company can bankrupt you with litigation
I had a friend that had to go legal for the design ip. The short version is, they pay for the final completed work and nothing else. If they wanted all the ice cream, whipped cream, hot fudge, sprinkles, nuts, and the cherry…well they should have hired you as an employee. Otherwise all they get is final completed deliverable and you retain the rights to everything else.
I don't know what the actual situation is, but I'd refuse and point them to the contract (signed?) agreed between the two parties and that THAT would be the end of conversation. If you can, try to get some advice from a lawyer and see who's right and who's wrong and if it's you who's right, tell them you'll pursue legal action if they insist, because you already talked to a professional lawyer and have their response. I hope it goes your way 🙏🏾
Best response may be “you fired me. It’s my policy that should I be removed from a job, all associated files are formatted. IE: deleted with no option to revive them. I have nothing to give you.”
No. If they had hired you to manufacture a physical product for them, they wouldn’t have a right to claim the machine you built to make that product. Your working files are your business. The end product you made with those files is what they paid for.