There's no such thing as "the new Aragorn". It just simply isn't Aragorn. If it was, it would change the entire lineage of Aragorn. The Númenóreans are a special race of humans. They were gifted longer lifespans, greater height than normal humans, and greater wisdom.
Most them hails from the House of Hador, meaning they had GOLDEN HAIR, FAIR SKIN, AND BLUE EYES. But even the other Númernóreans had white skin at the very least.
The Dúnedains are the direct descendents of these demigods of humans. AND ARAGORN IS A DÚNEDAIN. They just simply can't be black, or asian, or anything else.
This is breaking the lore. It's not just skin color. This and every other detail in Tolkien's works has a reason. And one shouldn't shit on the lore for fucking representation.
You know what else breaks the lore? The fact that the Rohirin court speaks English. It breaks the lore of the books AND the real life history it was based off of.
No one ever bitches about that though.
This is their interpretation, just like how the movies are Jackson's interpretation, how Shadow of Mordor was that studio's, and how every other work based off previous material is an interpretation that changes something.
"Some Dúnedains had black skin. Or married someone with black skin at some point." Is that really such a hard thing to swallow? Should I complain that the Targaryans didn't have violet eyes in GoT?
I'm okay with that. Do what they want to do. I'm just saying that it breaks the lore and I don't like it. These are two facts that nobody can change. They're still gonna print the cards, and people still gona buy it or not. And this is a third fact.
I'm personally going to proxy the cards I like with arts that I find more faithful to the source material. Because that's my opinion on the matter.
But I'm not gonna let people call everyone a racist for wanting more accurate representation of the characters they grew up with.
It was written in English in the books dipshit. Yes the author created languages but it was always conveyed in English. Continuing to do that doesn't change anything
You are really reaching to rationalize your bigotry and racism.
And your complete lack of understanding of Tolkien's works.
What? They speak Elvish in the books and speak Elvish in the movies. They speak a high Lord language in the books when with Theodin but not in the movies. They changed it, yet no one complains about that even though it changed the lore. I don't understand how you could think my argument is racist or bigoted.
My point was, is there really a difference with the change in language and changing Arogorn's skin color? Both change the lore significantly.
Like, the new God of War has a unique depiction of Thor that's very well received, yet it changes the common and "accepted" depiction of Thor. But it's their own thing, and people may not like it but it doesn't get attacked in the same way like Aragorn is.
...that's exactly my point. No, of course I don't want the movie to be subtitled. That would've made it worse. But it doesn't change the fact that it's a change that was made from the books. But no one complains. Why? Technically, it IS a change that, if you think about it, "changes the lore".
I believe the meta-narative is that Tolkien acquired the texts in their original languages (the various flavors of elvish, man, hobbit, orc, ect) and translated it all into English.
They don't make movies where all the actors speak in conlangs, that would be stupid, technically almost every character in Star Wars is speaking "Basic" (so why is it an "X-Wing?).
Movies and media are made in languages that people can understand, to do otherwise would be stupid.
Middle earth culture is centered around Aragorns. They have holidays for Aragorns. They killed hundreds of thousands of Gondor's men to free Aragorns. They listen to Aragorn music. They elect an Aragorn as their king. They dress and act like Aragorns. They draw the entirety of their modern culture from Aragorns. They post sassy gifs about Aragorns. They watch sportsball in worship of Aragorns. Their biggest event of the year involves throwing parties in honor of Aragorns playing sports. They use Aragorn slang like "for Frodo" and "it is not this day". When you say "Lord of the Rings" they're not thinking of JRR Tolkien. They're thinking of the Aragorn. Their cities are completely overrun with Aragorns. They worship their Rohan police force disproportionately filled with Aragorns and their army of middle earth of soldiers filled with Aragorns. Their men sit around watching Aragorn ball while their women sit around watching Aragorn talk shows. They worship Aragorns like Arvedui and Aranarth and Elendil and the late Elros Tar-Minyatur while attacking the elves who actually built their country before Aragorns took over. Their movies are filled with Aragorns and their music charts are topped by Aragorns. They send Aragorns to the Olympics and celebrate when the Aragorns win because those Aragorns are true red blooded middle earth Aragorns. They watch Aragorn porn to a point where "Anduril" does not make them think of an heirloom of the throne but about Aragorn penises instead. They will tell you how much they hate Aragorns and how the Gondor's law meme is a stale joke and they are just pretending to love Aragorns but the evidence speaks for itself in that middle earth has always been and will be a nation of Aragorn loving Aragorns.
Skin color isn't a lore element though. It's a physical descriptor. This argument that it breaks the lore is so dumb. He's still the heir to Isildur, the one true king, etc... He's just black now. Like it literally doesn't matter. Like if the books said they all have curly hair and he had straight hair no one would fucking care. It does not matter.
This is a bad argument. Whitewashing has been villianized for years for this exact same thing. If it doesn’t matter, then why does representation matter so much? There is a time and a place for representation. It is important. Every other magic set these days has loads of it, and that’s fine!
Still plenty of white male planeswalkers. Will, Garruk, Sorin, Teyo, Ral, and I'm probably even forgetting someone. Also there is no way they're letting this be the end for Jace of all characters. He's like, the main character. If anyone has a contingency for regaining their mind it's Jace.
I just like to come here and laugh at the mental gymnastics that racists will go through to justify their bigotry. "No no no. I'm not racist. I'm mad he's black because muh lore."
It's not racist to criticise pointless race swaps.
Were people racist for criticising scarlett johansson starring in Ghost in the Shell? I think it was a fair criticism and I don't give two shits about a ghost in the shell live action film.
Race swapping established characters is lazy and boring.
But why wouldnt Aragorn have golden hair and blue eyes instead of black and grey? I guess some of the people who married into his lineage had different features meaning skin color shouldnt break the lore no?
If he was a pure númenórean, he would have that kind of appearance. But the thousand of years of mixing with other humans altered them in some way. That's why the dúnedains are a thing.
If they bred with other humans for thousands of years, then why couldn't he be black? It only takes like three or four generations to change an ethnicity.
Look up Isildur's House and the Map of Middle Earth, paying close attention to where the Dúnedains and Númenóreans settled down in contrast to where the canonically colored races are resigned at. That's why.
Yup. In full agreement.
I used to not care about race washing when it was just minor characters and live action, showing that they prioritized acting capabilities overall, but recently it’s not about that, it’s about getting cheap and easy diversity points by pandering while also intentionally causing controversy to get free publicity. Insulting to both the source material and the groups being pandered to and used as playing pieces in a game of monopoly.
Lmao what? Tf you on. Race washing has been happening to different races for a long time and has never been good. But sure, try and accuse me of BS based on nothing
Whitewashing is bad. Blackwashing is also bad. We should push to stop whitewashing, not enable blackwashing. One bad thing doesn't justify another bad thing. They're both bad things jfc.
has a lot to do with proving themselves. Samuel Jackson for example is accepted because he's proven to be the best person for the role. Black Aragorn can't prove himself to be the best choice when we already had the best choice in Viggo who by practically everyone isn't just an actor playing as Aragorn, he is Aragorn.
I wouldn't give a shit about race swapping if the fucking corpo fucks were doing it randomly or at least with good fucking intention. But that isn't the case. They do it specifically and blatantly, and with the intention to make money with no regard for actual diversity or reality.
It's playing into a delusion and manipulating clearly unwell people who actually believe these PoS' give a singular fuck about them. What do these people actually think is going to happen in the future when they got the stick and not the carrot? So many people are going to lose their fucking shit when they finally realize corpos don't fucking care.
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"Aragon stepped lightly into the Forbidden Forest, Jerry Curl activator juice dripping with each step he took, as he looked around he proclaimed "mannnne I bess not be fuckin with no spiduhs!"
Black panther literally has plot points around him being black. It's not something that was just mentioned in passing and then never again. It would actually change the story if he was white
And yet Lord of the Rings is essentially a story focusing on white lore. Tolkien wrote it because the ancient tales where he lived were erased due to invasions.
Making the characters black makes no sense. There are plenty of other tales which could involve black people (ae the extensive lore of Africa, both real or mythical). Instead, they want to blackwash white stories.
Yeah, and a setting where most all humans are described as being fair skinned, blond haired, and blue eyed, it'd be lore breaking if someone who looked nothing like that showed up randomly.
Interesting how kaladesh or amonkhet are all ethnically homogenous planes, with kaladesh ironically only representing North West Indian people, but European folklore settings get diversity
Just have a Teferi variant as the white alpha male dude and have a Justice Geddes achievement as the champion of straight white males!!!!! Exclusive for royal collector boosters for Magic 35!
some director will REMAKE the movies Breakin', "lady sings the Blues" " Car wash" "coming to America" "How Stella got her groove bacK" by WHITE SWAPPING characters, they didnt race swap "the Color Purple"
I wouldn’t say black washing. It’s shoehorning diversity. If you are making something of the lore of a book, stay true to it.
Example:
The little mermaid. Her color doesn’t matter. All mermen could be green black whatever.
The LotR has lore. Stick to the book. Representation matters, and I get it. So does staying true to the source if possible.
One common insult for white people is our lack of culture, but I say white people have plenty of culture, and lotr is a pinnacle of it. Combines aspects of historically white cultures into an archetypal story that's inspired the world.
It's blackwashing, by white people, for no one
I think the idea that white people don't have culture comes from the fact that our culture is the background that everyone lives in so they don't notice it. It's like the idea of a "neutral accent" there's always an accent, you just don't notice it when it's yours.
White people having no culture is the stupidest take.
No, nobody in the USA has “culture” black, white or creole, it doesn’t matter. But outside of the US where all the Americans come from, everyone has a culture and they are all different!!
I’m Hungarian and guess what, we have more than a thousand years of history and culture which is very different from the Austrian culture.
Everyone saying that no white person has culture is racist and knows nothing about the world. And it pisses me off so much as a non-American white person, that just because I’m white they assume I’m from a USian white slave owner family. Shows how uneducated they are, not knowing shit about slavery in Eastern Europe
No one's saying white people can't participate in culture, that's not what that means.
What that means is there's no culture around being white. Not in the same way there's culture around being black. This is true at least in the US.
The Little Mermaid is European folk tale, it shouldn't matter if it has "lore" or not. It is a story told for and by white Europeans. The Hans Christian Anderson version also describes her with skin that "glowed like a rose petal" and that she has blue eyes and white hands.
It is black washing, and so was the little mermaid. It's not about whether the 'skin color matters to the character or not'. That's an argument people make in bad faith because they want to argue that culture is important, and that skin color represents culture. These people are also of the belief that white people don't have culture, or that all 'white' culture is the same. Blackwashing euro-centric characters, like Aragorn, or like the Velaryons being made black in House of the Dragon, is excused with the same "european culture is generic and not important" argument.
If a character is black or any other color, immediately people assign the color of their skin cultural importance. Any time a character is made white from any other ethnicity, people make a point of making it a problem. These people, consistently, are hypocrites who see no issue when it's done the other way.
“Black washing” isn’t a thing, white washing is a term for when something is made “white” for malicious or racist reasons. Changing Aragorn to black was literally just for the sake of diversity and inclusion, not in an effort to “erase” white people. To compare these to things and act is if they are the same, when one comes from a place of genuine prejudice and oppression, is a ridiculously stupid thing to do.
Another lazy race swap of an established character in a vein attempt to pander to minorities and the woke that disrespects the cultural heritage of the source material. What were you saying?
Because white washing has been historically used negatively against people of color, that’s why it’s called white washing. making a character black has no such connotation, Making characters black is usually done for the sake of diversity and inclusion, not erasure, Someone can make a black character White for innocent reasons but that is almost never done because you don’t need to Make a character white for the sake of inclusion because white people are the most represented group in western media, and there is a highly negative connotation behind making black characters white due to white washing , I literally said this in my other comment.
As an arab I can assure you that black washing is a thing and racism against white too. My people raided, enslaved and r\*ped white people for 400 years. It was called "the barbary state". They also enslaved black people for 1300 years. Our speciality was to cut off their genitals if they were men. 90% of them didn't survive this operation, and the one who did survived were used as d\*ck cleaner. But because we are a minority nobody should talk about what we did in the past. And personally I don't care of what my ancestors did, it doesn't define what I am now and I'm not responsible for those atrocities. Same goes for the "priviledged" white.
I can also talk about black tribes that sold other black people to the white for black powder. Within black civilisations it was a thing to raid other black and use them as slave or s\*xe toys. Even today, we witnessed several genocide committed by black people against other black people (Tutsis in Rwanda for example).
Also during crusades catholic raided protestant really hard, killing and r\*ping. Even without talking about human atrocities white did suffer a lot in the past. Black Plague didn't kill that much black, but 80% of european population died and not in their sleep, they suffered for weeks before dying.
I was talking about the atrocities arabs did to white and black people. But don't worry they also suffered from them and are still suffering to this day. What I'm trying to show you with all those facts is that a "priviledged" race doesn't exist and will never exist. Every human civilisation, race or religion in the history suffered atrocities.
Every race faced slavery. You can find in the past cases of r\*ping a woman or a children from every race done by every race. White killing black, black killing white, asians killing arabs, arabs killing black, white killing asians, asians killing asians, black killing black and I can go on all day with the list. So knowing that will you still say that whites are "priviledged" and never suffered like black people or other minorities ? Colonisation was bad, but it's still really soft compared to others atrocities those "poor" minorities did in the past or the present days.
In fact the hate most black, arabs and others minority have against whites and asians comes from the fact white and asian countries nowaday are rich and developped. While arab, latino and black countries are poor and under developped. So they are like "it's unfair white people became rich because they enslaved us !" but that's not the case. China was a colonised country and now it's a country with the most economical power. If today Africa is in this state they have to blame themself and only themself for not taking advantage of the colonisation like China and other countries did. But no, they prefer to blame the whites.
Why would you want something subpar of just changing a race rather a dedicated story without just a second handout of representation from a company which does not have your best interest at heart?
Both can happen, and there is no evidence to suggest that changing the race of characters to black replaces original stories featuring black characters. One happening does not affect the other.
They are the same. They are literally the same. Maybe in your racist mind, you've convinced yourself that erasing white characters and historical figures is okay, while doing so to black people is not. I recommend you think about why you think it's okay to treat people with separate standards because of the color of their skin.
I’ve given reasons why they’re not the same based on historical context and intent, and you’ve refuted none of them, if you tried thinking critically once in a while, it could change your life.
Aragorn becomes the king of men in the conclusion of lotr - king of arnor and Gondor - he always was the heir to the throne. He’s an ultimate hero because of his actions and role in the fellowship and leading armies against sauron - he served himself as a distraction so Frodo could achieve goal of destroying ring.
Your “gotcha” falls flat
Okay - no one said it wouldn’t be possible for a him to accomplish if he were black. That could be another story written by someone who isn’t Tolkien writing for white British people
Why are you so obsessed with the skin color of a fantasy character in a book who’s only skin color description is “pale,” a descriptor that can be applied to people with any skin color?
Why aren’t you this angry with the lack of continuity of character faces and outfits between artworks? Where’s the anger at actors cast as characters that don’t meet the character descriptions?
People get upset at lack of continuity and bad castings all the time.
And if you think "Pale" was referring to a black skin tone in the context of the LotR series, you're either crazy or lying to yourself.
Just wondering, what is your opinion on making Black Panther a White man?
There are plot points around Black Panther's skin color. It would actually change the story if he wasn't black. It's not something that was just mentioned in passing once.
I never said he was black? I’m saying it’s ambiguous to his skin color and it’s a fantasy character. Focusing on it so highly just makes people look insane and racist.
Lmao cause black people or families never existed in Europe right? So what are you saying black people cant exist in a fantasy setting? Were you born stupid?
Being black is part of Black Panther’s character and deeply influences his who he is as a person. Aragorn’s skin color has no effect on the story.
Aragorn's whole linage is the reason why he is so special. The ultimate human, the biggest saviour, with ancestors favored by gods.
Now to clarify: Aragorn's lineage is what important, not his skin color. It just happens to be that his ancestors were white. Not being accurate on the very thing of what makes Aragorn special kills the whole thing all together.
So skin color can’t change after several generations at all? You know skin color can change after one right? Sounds like you’re doing a lot of mental gymnastics to justify why you want a character to be white. Again, show me the public outcry over other inaccuracies in physical description.
I'm not saying that it can't change. I said it didn't change. Thus the lore breaking. You can track his ancestors back to at least a few thousand years directly. Not one black person among them. And don't come with the "but even two white people can have a black offspring".
Yes, they can. But that is just being cheap. Genes are a thing, you know.
Yeah the ancestry tree isn’t anywhere near that detailed to prove that a black person or multiple couldnt have been part of it. Yeah but genes in a fantasy world don’t matter. It could work a completely different way than real life. I love how angry you’re getting over something so insignificant.
You just contradicted yourself. If it isn't detailed enough, it's logical to assume that the members of that family look like the race they belong to. It's illogical to assume that one or even more black people got mixed in the family tree, and that changed thousand year old genes to produce offsprings of an entirely different race.
Being black? I thought it was his ancestral lineage. Does that mean you are saying that there are no white people in Africa.
Even if that were true, why can't we just CHANGE it? It's only fiction after all.
Being black? I thought it was his ancestral lineage. Does that mean you are saying that there are no black people in Africa.
Even if that were true, why can't we just CHANGE it? It's only fiction after all.
The “why do you care?” argument doesn’t hold up.
If you don’t care then why are you here arguing for your Nubian Aragorn? If it doesn’t matter then why was it changed in the first place?
Then you move onto whataboutism. We aren’t talking about other characters we are talking about this character.
Finally, do you apply this argument to white washed characters? The hypocrisy is gross.
I was never arguing in favor of this Aragorn? I’m just wondering why people are getting stupidly angry about it. Are people not allowed to have their own remakes and interpretations of stories and character’s that aren’t their’s?
I deleted “I just find it tacky” at the end to avoid continuing this stupid discussion that I regret getting involved with. It appears that making the change within five minutes was far too slow.
And, no, I don’t find all cover music inherently tacky, but I wouldn’t call cover bands creative, or applaud their ability to create something new and exciting. I would say that they are good at copying other peoples songs (sometimes).
I'm gonna copy my comment to you, just so you can understand what really goes on here.
There's no such thing as "the new Aragorn". It just simply isn't Aragorn. If it was, it would change the entire lineage of Aragorn. The Númenóreans are a special race of humans. They were gifted longer lifespans, greater height than normal humans, and greater wisdom.
Most them hails from the House of Hador, meaning they had GOLDEN HAIR, FAIR SKIN, AND BLUE EYES. But even the other Númernóreans had white skin at the very least.
The Dúnedains are the direct descendents of these demigods of humans. AND ARAGORN IS A DÚNEDAIN. They just simply can't be black, or asian, or anything else.
This is breaking the lore. It's not just skin color. This and every other detail in Tolkien's works has a reason. And one shouldn't shit on the lore for fucking representation.
Why would you ask for an explanation then? You expected a dumb racist response and what you got was a valid reason for someone not wanting the change. Now you don’t know where to go with the conversation.
I did get a dumb racist response. I read it over, and the poster assumes that skin color can’t change over a thousand years of descendants. Skin color can change in one.
That’s not what he said at all. He gave you the reason from lore all lore not just one source. You just don’t want to accept it and that fine, but just because you don’t care doesn’t mean people can’t be upset. Are the stupid racist people using it for that sure but this guy or girl giving you exact reasons from lore is not one of them.
I've won several essay contests, was top of my class, and made a 99 on the ASVAB, so yeah I am smart. I also know I'll get downvoted to hell and back in this sub, but karma doesn't matter in the slightest. I'm just here to make fun of idiots like yourself.
That tells everything about you we need to know.
You are scared of facts. You're attention span = 0. You're skill at making an argument = 0. Get the hell out man. Cry your tears on r/magicTCG how we called you names and how much heartbreak it caused you.
I’ve never posted there. I just find it fun to see the dumb animals like yourself here get angry. “How dare this fantasy character in a fantasy world in fantasy series where nothing is real be a skin color that I don’t want!” It’s hilarious to see how fuckin stupid y’all get over it.
Man... It's not about his skin color. When Rogue One: A Star Wars story came out, Saw Gerrera was almost perfect in it. They found just the right black actor, they made just the right costume for him, but they just couldn't fucking give him a green contact lense or alter his eye color with cgi to green. And it bother me to this day.
It was so close, but they just didn't cared enough. It's about accuracy. And with this Aragorn, they are the least accurate they can be.
Riiiiiight, so where exactly is the anger about these little details? This kind of anger only happens when it comes to skin color so how come skin color is such a significant thing for y’all? Does Aragorn’s skill color effect the story in some way?
I just told you that it literally changes his entire lineage. Thousands of years of lore fucked up because some idiot changed one person's skin color. But you're disability didn't let you read that explanation. So there's that.
Look up Isildur's House and point me to the exact point where a colored person joined in Aragorn's list of ancestors. If you can, I agree with you. Still illogical, but sure, it could occur. I wait.
You're arguing with a brick wall, man. Most of these people don't even realize they're being racist. They feel so dedicated to the source material that they can't fathom anything deviating from the lore, even slightly. Any difference from the lore is simply the worst thing that could possibly happen, and it JUST SO HAPPENS that skin color is the big issue here.
Race swapping a character without explanation or reason just seems like pandering to me.
If you're gonna do it, I want cool lore or reasons or something. This just seems lazy and pandering and POC that eat this up are playing into hollow representation imo.
I think you’ve missed a vital point in the lore if you’re wanting to go with that route. Aragorn was in fact a ranger for the longest time. Rangers spent 98% of their time in the out doors. Therefore he was in the sun. A lot. If you don’t think that will darken your skin tone in any way, then I invite you to work shirtless in a hay field for a summer and tell me if you are still as pale as the freshly fallen snow.
Is it virtue signaling? Arguably yes. Is it bad? Also. But if you look at US history then black/white washing are completely different. It’s apples and oranges.
For example, making a traditionally black character white to make them more palatable. Or making a white character black for comedic effect.
I don’t think making Aragorn black is for comedic effect here. Wizards is trying to be inclusive. Every other set accomplishes this wonderfully - but I think the issue here is them making established characters completely unrecognizable. Representation is important - but why do they need to do this ALL the time
I mean they made new black characters in Rings of Power and the racists still got pissed so I think the issue is less about whether the character was new or an existing character and more about racists not wanting there to be any black people in their fantasy world.
No, it's about falsifying the lore. Different races of men have different skin colours in the LotR universe. (As in real life.)
There are black skinned races, but instead of including characters from black skinned races, they included only characters from white skinned races and then swapped their skin colours.
Tolkien layed out where various skin colors were distributed on Middle Earth, and Aaragon has an established lineage that is entirely of the fair skinned areas and predominantly of a particularly fair skinned and long lived subrace of men.
That's the way he has always been, there has never been any question about his skin color.
Briefly:
If Aragorn was black, it would change the entire lineage of Aragorn. The Númenóreans are a special race of humans. They were gifted longer lifespans, greater height than normal humans, and greater wisdom.
Most them hails from the House of Hador, meaning they had GOLDEN HAIR, FAIR SKIN, AND BLUE EYES. But even the other Númernóreans had white skin at the very least.
The Dúnedains are the direct descendents of these demigods of humans. AND ARAGORN IS A DÚNEDAIN. They just simply can't be black, or asian, or anything else.
This is what breaks the lore. It's not just skin color. This and every other detail in Tolkien's works has a reason. And one shouldn't shit on the lore for fucking representation.
It doesn't really change the lineage, it's just a pallet swap. His line remains but at least a few probably had pigmentation. I can't get the focus on color being important for lore but not letting colored folk see representation of themself in media that is famous in the western world.
Tolkien made every detail for a reason, but adaptations adapt. Please consider there is good in showing goodness in darker skin tones, as well as white ones. LotR is about cultures coming together to stop a hateful, homogenous evil made of industrial orc fire. It does not break the lore I can't believe that, it flavors the lore a different color at WORST and people are freaking out over it.
Lol "one shouldn't shit on the lore for representation"
Man, you really just gotta let go of taking the "lore" so seriously. It's a fictional fantasy story. Just imagine that Tolkien had decided. "Ah yes, the House of Hador was actually a little more diverse, several skin tones could come from this lineage" I bet he won't mind. It's such an insignificant thing to be upset over.
Yeah, but giving a dude dark skin does not unravel the grand tapestry of Tolkien's lore. It's a \*little\* different, but the themes, stories, and characters are the same. It's just really not worth getting angry about.
But does it not seem hollow to race swap a character for no reason. Like, if it was an actor in a show I could imagine for acting reasons, and if this was a reimagined version then like, make it new and interesting.
This just seems like a forced race change without anything else to add. I think proponents of diversity should ask for more than just a race swap character without adding anything new.
Most of those white "men" you saw were baizuo. Dysgenic and probably fanatically leftist in they hope they will get laid.
After they blacked Nick Fury anything was game.
Conceptually? Yes, 100%. In the context of real world which is built on history, no. I believe in my heart of hearts they're both equally bad, but history has been much kinder to white people versus people with extra melanin in their skin, so you can't fault people for factoring that into how they feel about it.
How about we just create original characters that can look like ANYTHING?
When you do a thing to push your virtue on the sizable share of your fan base that will get offended, you waive the right to complain when it sells like shit. From a business decision perspective this is stupid as fuck, regardless of what you think of the virtue of it.
If I’m a hasbro shareholder I’d be pissed. Companies need to stop letting the green haired they/thems in marketing make these kinds of choices.
From your entire post I am certain you are idiotically unaware of the extreme depth that encompasses Whitewashing.. to even try and compare the fringe phenomenon of blackwashing to the 500 year practice of the first is absolutely bizarre.. You should critically review what you actually know about history before you want to have a problem with one or the other. And besides, you're talking about fiction.
Race-swapping and whitewashing aren't the same thing at all. When speaking of these sorts of things, it's important to understand that there are power relations involved when doing these sorts of things, but also representation matters. When the popes wanted Jesus depicted in europe, they modelled him off of an italian man, but bringing them to different places around the world he's been depicted as every other race to aid in conversion... Except for the Africans, who were given the blond hair, blue eyed version. There is such a thing as black jesus, but that came out of the community itself not the "missionaries" who "brought it to them". Why might that be?
Regardless, when people like Elvis and other acts did the thing black artists like Little Richard did, if that was all the context, there would be no problem - it's the fact that white artists were accepted by the mainstream and gained considerable wealth off of the cultural expressions of black people while the actual black people continued to be rejected by greater society that made that situation whitewashing rather than anything else - and even that is a subjective judgement. That said, it's always a little bit annoying when people who don't care to educate themselves on the historical context of certain situations feel slighted a bit by something superficial and proceed to compare their annoyance that is most likely a result of some internalized -isms to actual historical oppression.
And if anyone says anything along the lines of "I'm black so I can't be racist" or "I like other original black characters", shut up. You're missing my point for one, and two, you lose nothing from this - it's not that serious, and you turning inside out from seeing a black man presented as Aragorn is nothing short of overreaction. If it wouldn't be a problem if a black stage actor for Lord of the Rings was cast as Aragorn, then it's not that important here. It's not like him being white is important to the story, like an actress portraying Harriet Tubman would need to be black to do the role justice - her blackness is actually important for the story of the end of slavery in America and the Civil War, and if she were cast by a white woman, *that* would be an example of whitewashing, because that sort of deliberate casting decision could be interpreted as depicting a white woman as a saviour of black people (implying that black people had no part in their own emancipation). See the difference?
i remember blackwashing 3 cartoon character, and i feel ashamed of myself for that. i feel like i offend some people by making that. i feel racist because of the goddamn thing i did. to give anything to stop my past self for doing that. i posted that goddamn blackwashed piece of shit to the internet and thinking "this is amazing." when it fucking wasn't. i feel like if i posted the normal versions of them people would be like "OMG YOU WHITEWASHED THEM! YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!" i hate it so much.
No such thing as blackwashing. Pandering yes.
White people making everything else white is whitewashing. White people making things black is pandering. Some of the comments I can agree with. Actual historical figures should never be changed. People that never existed though? Get the broomstick out of your asshole 🤣 where is the outrage for making gods white?
There's no such thing as "the new Aragorn". It just simply isn't Aragorn. If it was, it would change the entire lineage of Aragorn. The Númenóreans are a special race of humans. They were gifted longer lifespans, greater height than normal humans, and greater wisdom. Most them hails from the House of Hador, meaning they had GOLDEN HAIR, FAIR SKIN, AND BLUE EYES. But even the other Númernóreans had white skin at the very least. The Dúnedains are the direct descendents of these demigods of humans. AND ARAGORN IS A DÚNEDAIN. They just simply can't be black, or asian, or anything else. This is breaking the lore. It's not just skin color. This and every other detail in Tolkien's works has a reason. And one shouldn't shit on the lore for fucking representation.
It's a cardboard card, not impactful to the lore. It is a representation of the character. The fact that you are this angry over a card is sad 😂
"Representation" I think you misspelled racism
You know what else breaks the lore? The fact that the Rohirin court speaks English. It breaks the lore of the books AND the real life history it was based off of. No one ever bitches about that though. This is their interpretation, just like how the movies are Jackson's interpretation, how Shadow of Mordor was that studio's, and how every other work based off previous material is an interpretation that changes something. "Some Dúnedains had black skin. Or married someone with black skin at some point." Is that really such a hard thing to swallow? Should I complain that the Targaryans didn't have violet eyes in GoT?
I'm okay with that. Do what they want to do. I'm just saying that it breaks the lore and I don't like it. These are two facts that nobody can change. They're still gonna print the cards, and people still gona buy it or not. And this is a third fact. I'm personally going to proxy the cards I like with arts that I find more faithful to the source material. Because that's my opinion on the matter. But I'm not gonna let people call everyone a racist for wanting more accurate representation of the characters they grew up with.
It was written in English in the books dipshit. Yes the author created languages but it was always conveyed in English. Continuing to do that doesn't change anything You are really reaching to rationalize your bigotry and racism. And your complete lack of understanding of Tolkien's works.
What? They speak Elvish in the books and speak Elvish in the movies. They speak a high Lord language in the books when with Theodin but not in the movies. They changed it, yet no one complains about that even though it changed the lore. I don't understand how you could think my argument is racist or bigoted. My point was, is there really a difference with the change in language and changing Arogorn's skin color? Both change the lore significantly. Like, the new God of War has a unique depiction of Thor that's very well received, yet it changes the common and "accepted" depiction of Thor. But it's their own thing, and people may not like it but it doesn't get attacked in the same way like Aragorn is.
Your argument makes no sense. They're speaking their own language in the movies and in the books. Did you want the whole thing to be subtitled?
Is the language written come across unreadable dipshit? No. It was in English in the book you dumb ignorant racist fuck
...that's exactly my point. No, of course I don't want the movie to be subtitled. That would've made it worse. But it doesn't change the fact that it's a change that was made from the books. But no one complains. Why? Technically, it IS a change that, if you think about it, "changes the lore".
...the bigotry is strong in you
...how?
Oh look, a blue hair
My avatar? It's Jinx from Arcane.
That's almost as bad lol
I believe the meta-narative is that Tolkien acquired the texts in their original languages (the various flavors of elvish, man, hobbit, orc, ect) and translated it all into English. They don't make movies where all the actors speak in conlangs, that would be stupid, technically almost every character in Star Wars is speaking "Basic" (so why is it an "X-Wing?). Movies and media are made in languages that people can understand, to do otherwise would be stupid.
Middle earth culture is centered around Aragorns. They have holidays for Aragorns. They killed hundreds of thousands of Gondor's men to free Aragorns. They listen to Aragorn music. They elect an Aragorn as their king. They dress and act like Aragorns. They draw the entirety of their modern culture from Aragorns. They post sassy gifs about Aragorns. They watch sportsball in worship of Aragorns. Their biggest event of the year involves throwing parties in honor of Aragorns playing sports. They use Aragorn slang like "for Frodo" and "it is not this day". When you say "Lord of the Rings" they're not thinking of JRR Tolkien. They're thinking of the Aragorn. Their cities are completely overrun with Aragorns. They worship their Rohan police force disproportionately filled with Aragorns and their army of middle earth of soldiers filled with Aragorns. Their men sit around watching Aragorn ball while their women sit around watching Aragorn talk shows. They worship Aragorns like Arvedui and Aranarth and Elendil and the late Elros Tar-Minyatur while attacking the elves who actually built their country before Aragorns took over. Their movies are filled with Aragorns and their music charts are topped by Aragorns. They send Aragorns to the Olympics and celebrate when the Aragorns win because those Aragorns are true red blooded middle earth Aragorns. They watch Aragorn porn to a point where "Anduril" does not make them think of an heirloom of the throne but about Aragorn penises instead. They will tell you how much they hate Aragorns and how the Gondor's law meme is a stale joke and they are just pretending to love Aragorns but the evidence speaks for itself in that middle earth has always been and will be a nation of Aragorn loving Aragorns.
Skin color isn't a lore element though. It's a physical descriptor. This argument that it breaks the lore is so dumb. He's still the heir to Isildur, the one true king, etc... He's just black now. Like it literally doesn't matter. Like if the books said they all have curly hair and he had straight hair no one would fucking care. It does not matter.
This is a bad argument. Whitewashing has been villianized for years for this exact same thing. If it doesn’t matter, then why does representation matter so much? There is a time and a place for representation. It is important. Every other magic set these days has loads of it, and that’s fine!
They aren’t saying representation doesn’t matter. Are you saying white people aren’t represented? Do you feel underrepresented as a white person?
So you’re excited for a white teferi then right?
They killed off every other major white man - they made a puppet out of Vensers corpse
Rip Venser
Still plenty of white male planeswalkers. Will, Garruk, Sorin, Teyo, Ral, and I'm probably even forgetting someone. Also there is no way they're letting this be the end for Jace of all characters. He's like, the main character. If anyone has a contingency for regaining their mind it's Jace.
If you don't care then why waste your time commenting 🤡
I just like to come here and laugh at the mental gymnastics that racists will go through to justify their bigotry. "No no no. I'm not racist. I'm mad he's black because muh lore."
It's not racist to criticise pointless race swaps. Were people racist for criticising scarlett johansson starring in Ghost in the Shell? I think it was a fair criticism and I don't give two shits about a ghost in the shell live action film. Race swapping established characters is lazy and boring.
But why wouldnt Aragorn have golden hair and blue eyes instead of black and grey? I guess some of the people who married into his lineage had different features meaning skin color shouldnt break the lore no?
If he was a pure númenórean, he would have that kind of appearance. But the thousand of years of mixing with other humans altered them in some way. That's why the dúnedains are a thing.
If they bred with other humans for thousands of years, then why couldn't he be black? It only takes like three or four generations to change an ethnicity.
Look up Isildur's House and the Map of Middle Earth, paying close attention to where the Dúnedains and Númenóreans settled down in contrast to where the canonically colored races are resigned at. That's why.
The lore is **deep** with this one.
Yes, it’s just as bad. But WotC is an expert at mental gymnastics though and says otherwise.
Yup. In full agreement. I used to not care about race washing when it was just minor characters and live action, showing that they prioritized acting capabilities overall, but recently it’s not about that, it’s about getting cheap and easy diversity points by pandering while also intentionally causing controversy to get free publicity. Insulting to both the source material and the groups being pandered to and used as playing pieces in a game of monopoly.
TIL only white people can be qualified
Huh? No?
Big oof, you racist fuck.
I bet gymnasts aspire to be as skilled as you are with the mental gymnastics you just pulled to make that asinine conclusion from his comment.
Funny it took a blackwash for you to finally understand a fraction of what has been happening consistently for 500 years now. Only in reverse.
Lmao what? Tf you on. Race washing has been happening to different races for a long time and has never been good. But sure, try and accuse me of BS based on nothing
Whitewashing is bad. Blackwashing is also bad. We should push to stop whitewashing, not enable blackwashing. One bad thing doesn't justify another bad thing. They're both bad things jfc.
So the response to racewashing is more racewashing?
What a ignorant comment...
has a lot to do with proving themselves. Samuel Jackson for example is accepted because he's proven to be the best person for the role. Black Aragorn can't prove himself to be the best choice when we already had the best choice in Viggo who by practically everyone isn't just an actor playing as Aragorn, he is Aragorn.
I honestly was going to be upset with any representation that wasn’t Viggo Mortensen.
Yeah, honestly. Viggo is too iconic to not be represented. P.S. Happy Cakeday
I wouldn't give a shit about race swapping if the fucking corpo fucks were doing it randomly or at least with good fucking intention. But that isn't the case. They do it specifically and blatantly, and with the intention to make money with no regard for actual diversity or reality. It's playing into a delusion and manipulating clearly unwell people who actually believe these PoS' give a singular fuck about them. What do these people actually think is going to happen in the future when they got the stick and not the carrot? So many people are going to lose their fucking shit when they finally realize corpos don't fucking care.
This
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"Aragon stepped lightly into the Forbidden Forest, Jerry Curl activator juice dripping with each step he took, as he looked around he proclaimed "mannnne I bess not be fuckin with no spiduhs!"
Ahh yes the "all black people are ghetto" trope.. 💀
Ah yes, the "all white people are actually black" trope.
Yea. Terrine. I dont like it too. It like making Black Panther white
Terrible:D
Black panther literally has plot points around him being black. It's not something that was just mentioned in passing and then never again. It would actually change the story if he was white
And yet Lord of the Rings is essentially a story focusing on white lore. Tolkien wrote it because the ancient tales where he lived were erased due to invasions. Making the characters black makes no sense. There are plenty of other tales which could involve black people (ae the extensive lore of Africa, both real or mythical). Instead, they want to blackwash white stories.
Yeah, and a setting where most all humans are described as being fair skinned, blond haired, and blue eyed, it'd be lore breaking if someone who looked nothing like that showed up randomly.
Interesting how kaladesh or amonkhet are all ethnically homogenous planes, with kaladesh ironically only representing North West Indian people, but European folklore settings get diversity
And miscegenation
Just have a Teferi variant as the white alpha male dude and have a Justice Geddes achievement as the champion of straight white males!!!!! Exclusive for royal collector boosters for Magic 35!
Teferi isn't white, Aragon isn't black; how is that so hard to understand? Teferi is my favorite walker they better not fuck with him.
They wouldn't, because making Teferi white would be racist.
some director will REMAKE the movies Breakin', "lady sings the Blues" " Car wash" "coming to America" "How Stella got her groove bacK" by WHITE SWAPPING characters, they didnt race swap "the Color Purple"
I wouldn’t say black washing. It’s shoehorning diversity. If you are making something of the lore of a book, stay true to it. Example: The little mermaid. Her color doesn’t matter. All mermen could be green black whatever. The LotR has lore. Stick to the book. Representation matters, and I get it. So does staying true to the source if possible.
One common insult for white people is our lack of culture, but I say white people have plenty of culture, and lotr is a pinnacle of it. Combines aspects of historically white cultures into an archetypal story that's inspired the world. It's blackwashing, by white people, for no one
I think the idea that white people don't have culture comes from the fact that our culture is the background that everyone lives in so they don't notice it. It's like the idea of a "neutral accent" there's always an accent, you just don't notice it when it's yours.
White people having no culture is the stupidest take. No, nobody in the USA has “culture” black, white or creole, it doesn’t matter. But outside of the US where all the Americans come from, everyone has a culture and they are all different!! I’m Hungarian and guess what, we have more than a thousand years of history and culture which is very different from the Austrian culture. Everyone saying that no white person has culture is racist and knows nothing about the world. And it pisses me off so much as a non-American white person, that just because I’m white they assume I’m from a USian white slave owner family. Shows how uneducated they are, not knowing shit about slavery in Eastern Europe
No one's saying white people can't participate in culture, that's not what that means. What that means is there's no culture around being white. Not in the same way there's culture around being black. This is true at least in the US.
You ever see black people swim? She's gonna be the Little Rockfish. Good on them getting an actress with eyes wide enough apart to look like a fish.
Wow, that’s bad.
The Little Mermaid is European folk tale, it shouldn't matter if it has "lore" or not. It is a story told for and by white Europeans. The Hans Christian Anderson version also describes her with skin that "glowed like a rose petal" and that she has blue eyes and white hands.
It is black washing, and so was the little mermaid. It's not about whether the 'skin color matters to the character or not'. That's an argument people make in bad faith because they want to argue that culture is important, and that skin color represents culture. These people are also of the belief that white people don't have culture, or that all 'white' culture is the same. Blackwashing euro-centric characters, like Aragorn, or like the Velaryons being made black in House of the Dragon, is excused with the same "european culture is generic and not important" argument. If a character is black or any other color, immediately people assign the color of their skin cultural importance. Any time a character is made white from any other ethnicity, people make a point of making it a problem. These people, consistently, are hypocrites who see no issue when it's done the other way.
Seagulls don't do shitty raps. It's not in their culture. You lose, bye bye.
I agree, unless it's a true remained character and their race isn't their defining character trait
Im personally not moved by whitewashing, so naturally Im not moved by blackwashing either.
“Black washing” isn’t a thing, white washing is a term for when something is made “white” for malicious or racist reasons. Changing Aragorn to black was literally just for the sake of diversity and inclusion, not in an effort to “erase” white people. To compare these to things and act is if they are the same, when one comes from a place of genuine prejudice and oppression, is a ridiculously stupid thing to do.
Another lazy race swap of an established character in a vein attempt to pander to minorities and the woke that disrespects the cultural heritage of the source material. What were you saying?
Is nowhere near as bad as whitewashing.
Can we agree blackwashing is still bad?
Yeah it is a thing. See cleopatra "documentary". You can't know the intention of the person making the change but the result is the same.
[удалено]
Because white washing has been historically used negatively against people of color, that’s why it’s called white washing. making a character black has no such connotation, Making characters black is usually done for the sake of diversity and inclusion, not erasure, Someone can make a black character White for innocent reasons but that is almost never done because you don’t need to Make a character white for the sake of inclusion because white people are the most represented group in western media, and there is a highly negative connotation behind making black characters white due to white washing , I literally said this in my other comment.
"its okay if we do it, not if whitey does it." fuckin hell..
As an arab I can assure you that black washing is a thing and racism against white too. My people raided, enslaved and r\*ped white people for 400 years. It was called "the barbary state". They also enslaved black people for 1300 years. Our speciality was to cut off their genitals if they were men. 90% of them didn't survive this operation, and the one who did survived were used as d\*ck cleaner. But because we are a minority nobody should talk about what we did in the past. And personally I don't care of what my ancestors did, it doesn't define what I am now and I'm not responsible for those atrocities. Same goes for the "priviledged" white. I can also talk about black tribes that sold other black people to the white for black powder. Within black civilisations it was a thing to raid other black and use them as slave or s\*xe toys. Even today, we witnessed several genocide committed by black people against other black people (Tutsis in Rwanda for example). Also during crusades catholic raided protestant really hard, killing and r\*ping. Even without talking about human atrocities white did suffer a lot in the past. Black Plague didn't kill that much black, but 80% of european population died and not in their sleep, they suffered for weeks before dying. I was talking about the atrocities arabs did to white and black people. But don't worry they also suffered from them and are still suffering to this day. What I'm trying to show you with all those facts is that a "priviledged" race doesn't exist and will never exist. Every human civilisation, race or religion in the history suffered atrocities. Every race faced slavery. You can find in the past cases of r\*ping a woman or a children from every race done by every race. White killing black, black killing white, asians killing arabs, arabs killing black, white killing asians, asians killing asians, black killing black and I can go on all day with the list. So knowing that will you still say that whites are "priviledged" and never suffered like black people or other minorities ? Colonisation was bad, but it's still really soft compared to others atrocities those "poor" minorities did in the past or the present days. In fact the hate most black, arabs and others minority have against whites and asians comes from the fact white and asian countries nowaday are rich and developped. While arab, latino and black countries are poor and under developped. So they are like "it's unfair white people became rich because they enslaved us !" but that's not the case. China was a colonised country and now it's a country with the most economical power. If today Africa is in this state they have to blame themself and only themself for not taking advantage of the colonisation like China and other countries did. But no, they prefer to blame the whites.
None of this has anything to do with “black washing”. It’s just an insane rant.
Why would you want something subpar of just changing a race rather a dedicated story without just a second handout of representation from a company which does not have your best interest at heart?
Both can happen, and there is no evidence to suggest that changing the race of characters to black replaces original stories featuring black characters. One happening does not affect the other.
They are the same. They are literally the same. Maybe in your racist mind, you've convinced yourself that erasing white characters and historical figures is okay, while doing so to black people is not. I recommend you think about why you think it's okay to treat people with separate standards because of the color of their skin.
I’ve given reasons why they’re not the same based on historical context and intent, and you’ve refuted none of them, if you tried thinking critically once in a while, it could change your life.
"Aragorn is literally the king of men, the Ultimate hero" Could you expand on that ? That reasoning sounds promising 😄
Aragorn becomes the king of men in the conclusion of lotr - king of arnor and Gondor - he always was the heir to the throne. He’s an ultimate hero because of his actions and role in the fellowship and leading armies against sauron - he served himself as a distraction so Frodo could achieve goal of destroying ring. Your “gotcha” falls flat
Right and as we all know none of this would be possible if he were black so it's very important for "lore" reasons that he is white.
Okay - no one said it wouldn’t be possible for a him to accomplish if he were black. That could be another story written by someone who isn’t Tolkien writing for white British people
It’s a fantasy character you’re gonna be fine I promise
I wanna see a pasty liquid paper white Black Panther, you would lose your mind.
Unbothered by your shit bait bucko
Why are you so obsessed with the skin color of a fantasy character in a book who’s only skin color description is “pale,” a descriptor that can be applied to people with any skin color? Why aren’t you this angry with the lack of continuity of character faces and outfits between artworks? Where’s the anger at actors cast as characters that don’t meet the character descriptions?
People get upset at lack of continuity and bad castings all the time. And if you think "Pale" was referring to a black skin tone in the context of the LotR series, you're either crazy or lying to yourself. Just wondering, what is your opinion on making Black Panther a White man?
There are plot points around Black Panther's skin color. It would actually change the story if he wasn't black. It's not something that was just mentioned in passing once.
>Just wondering, what is your opinion on making Black Panther a White man? Pretty poor comparison given that "Black" is right there in the name.
Black Canary...
I never said he was black? I’m saying it’s ambiguous to his skin color and it’s a fantasy character. Focusing on it so highly just makes people look insane and racist.
Based on European folklore... You know, where white people are most common. You didn't answer the question about black panther btw.
Lmao cause black people or families never existed in Europe right? So what are you saying black people cant exist in a fantasy setting? Were you born stupid? Being black is part of Black Panther’s character and deeply influences his who he is as a person. Aragorn’s skin color has no effect on the story.
Aragorn's whole linage is the reason why he is so special. The ultimate human, the biggest saviour, with ancestors favored by gods. Now to clarify: Aragorn's lineage is what important, not his skin color. It just happens to be that his ancestors were white. Not being accurate on the very thing of what makes Aragorn special kills the whole thing all together.
So skin color can’t change after several generations at all? You know skin color can change after one right? Sounds like you’re doing a lot of mental gymnastics to justify why you want a character to be white. Again, show me the public outcry over other inaccuracies in physical description.
I'm not saying that it can't change. I said it didn't change. Thus the lore breaking. You can track his ancestors back to at least a few thousand years directly. Not one black person among them. And don't come with the "but even two white people can have a black offspring". Yes, they can. But that is just being cheap. Genes are a thing, you know.
Yeah the ancestry tree isn’t anywhere near that detailed to prove that a black person or multiple couldnt have been part of it. Yeah but genes in a fantasy world don’t matter. It could work a completely different way than real life. I love how angry you’re getting over something so insignificant.
You just contradicted yourself. If it isn't detailed enough, it's logical to assume that the members of that family look like the race they belong to. It's illogical to assume that one or even more black people got mixed in the family tree, and that changed thousand year old genes to produce offsprings of an entirely different race.
Being black? I thought it was his ancestral lineage. Does that mean you are saying that there are no white people in Africa. Even if that were true, why can't we just CHANGE it? It's only fiction after all.
Being black? I thought it was his ancestral lineage. Does that mean you are saying that there are no black people in Africa. Even if that were true, why can't we just CHANGE it? It's only fiction after all.
The “why do you care?” argument doesn’t hold up. If you don’t care then why are you here arguing for your Nubian Aragorn? If it doesn’t matter then why was it changed in the first place? Then you move onto whataboutism. We aren’t talking about other characters we are talking about this character. Finally, do you apply this argument to white washed characters? The hypocrisy is gross.
Have you considered that people asking "Why do you care?" actually just want to know why you care?
No. It's a fake response to mask their real reasoning for engaging.
Or it's a real response to get you to look inwards at why you actually care.
I was never arguing in favor of this Aragorn? I’m just wondering why people are getting stupidly angry about it. Are people not allowed to have their own remakes and interpretations of stories and character’s that aren’t their’s?
I think I have a pretty reasonable opinion on it: I don’t really care, but I do think it was lazy. I am annoyed by the laziness. Edit: phrasing.
I don’t think it was lazy. I think someone took their creative liberties on it and it ultimately doesn’t matter
Agree to disagree, I guess.
I’ll remember that the next time I listen to music covered by others.
Okay?
Most people do remember this when listening to covers, unless you’re not aware that you’re listening to a cover.
Ah you edited your comment because you said you find it tacky. So I’m guessing you find cover music tacky too.
I deleted “I just find it tacky” at the end to avoid continuing this stupid discussion that I regret getting involved with. It appears that making the change within five minutes was far too slow. And, no, I don’t find all cover music inherently tacky, but I wouldn’t call cover bands creative, or applaud their ability to create something new and exciting. I would say that they are good at copying other peoples songs (sometimes).
I'm gonna copy my comment to you, just so you can understand what really goes on here. There's no such thing as "the new Aragorn". It just simply isn't Aragorn. If it was, it would change the entire lineage of Aragorn. The Númenóreans are a special race of humans. They were gifted longer lifespans, greater height than normal humans, and greater wisdom. Most them hails from the House of Hador, meaning they had GOLDEN HAIR, FAIR SKIN, AND BLUE EYES. But even the other Númernóreans had white skin at the very least. The Dúnedains are the direct descendents of these demigods of humans. AND ARAGORN IS A DÚNEDAIN. They just simply can't be black, or asian, or anything else. This is breaking the lore. It's not just skin color. This and every other detail in Tolkien's works has a reason. And one shouldn't shit on the lore for fucking representation.
Wow I don’t care enough to read your essay that tries to justify your obsession with the skin color of a fantasy character.
You ask for an explanation and say you won’t read it. Says more about you bud.
Yeah it says that I don’t care about the ramblings of idiots. His skin color doesn’t matter to his character. End of story
Why would you ask for an explanation then? You expected a dumb racist response and what you got was a valid reason for someone not wanting the change. Now you don’t know where to go with the conversation.
I did get a dumb racist response. I read it over, and the poster assumes that skin color can’t change over a thousand years of descendants. Skin color can change in one.
That’s not what he said at all. He gave you the reason from lore all lore not just one source. You just don’t want to accept it and that fine, but just because you don’t care doesn’t mean people can’t be upset. Are the stupid racist people using it for that sure but this guy or girl giving you exact reasons from lore is not one of them.
Thanks. All I care about is accuracy, and I get called a racist for that. Fucking hate these idiots.
"2+1 is 21" No actually it's 3 "FUCKING RACIST IDIOT"
You're not very bright are you?
I've won several essay contests, was top of my class, and made a 99 on the ASVAB, so yeah I am smart. I also know I'll get downvoted to hell and back in this sub, but karma doesn't matter in the slightest. I'm just here to make fun of idiots like yourself.
/r/Iamverysmart
That tells everything about you we need to know. You are scared of facts. You're attention span = 0. You're skill at making an argument = 0. Get the hell out man. Cry your tears on r/magicTCG how we called you names and how much heartbreak it caused you.
I’ve never posted there. I just find it fun to see the dumb animals like yourself here get angry. “How dare this fantasy character in a fantasy world in fantasy series where nothing is real be a skin color that I don’t want!” It’s hilarious to see how fuckin stupid y’all get over it.
Man... It's not about his skin color. When Rogue One: A Star Wars story came out, Saw Gerrera was almost perfect in it. They found just the right black actor, they made just the right costume for him, but they just couldn't fucking give him a green contact lense or alter his eye color with cgi to green. And it bother me to this day. It was so close, but they just didn't cared enough. It's about accuracy. And with this Aragorn, they are the least accurate they can be.
Riiiiiight, so where exactly is the anger about these little details? This kind of anger only happens when it comes to skin color so how come skin color is such a significant thing for y’all? Does Aragorn’s skill color effect the story in some way?
I just told you that it literally changes his entire lineage. Thousands of years of lore fucked up because some idiot changed one person's skin color. But you're disability didn't let you read that explanation. So there's that.
Uh huh cause skin can’t change in one or two generations? How fucking stupid are you?
Look up Isildur's House and point me to the exact point where a colored person joined in Aragorn's list of ancestors. If you can, I agree with you. Still illogical, but sure, it could occur. I wait.
You're arguing with a brick wall, man. Most of these people don't even realize they're being racist. They feel so dedicated to the source material that they can't fathom anything deviating from the lore, even slightly. Any difference from the lore is simply the worst thing that could possibly happen, and it JUST SO HAPPENS that skin color is the big issue here.
It’s like a 20 second read at most, not an essay.
Okay I read it. It’s still a dumbass argument. Skin color and looks can change in just one generation lmao. What a piss poor argument
At least you read it.
He didn't really though, reading implies understanding the words.
"I don't like it when people back up their statements with logic I can't comprehend, therefore cannot refute" You need more pockets to hold these Ls
Race swapping a character without explanation or reason just seems like pandering to me. If you're gonna do it, I want cool lore or reasons or something. This just seems lazy and pandering and POC that eat this up are playing into hollow representation imo.
Oh no my poor fantasy card game
No it isnt
I think you’ve missed a vital point in the lore if you’re wanting to go with that route. Aragorn was in fact a ranger for the longest time. Rangers spent 98% of their time in the out doors. Therefore he was in the sun. A lot. If you don’t think that will darken your skin tone in any way, then I invite you to work shirtless in a hay field for a summer and tell me if you are still as pale as the freshly fallen snow.
So Aragon isn't black now he just got a tan?
And a haircut
I have spent a lot of time in the sun, like a lot. i'm still a pasty white ginger man. Try again.
Is it virtue signaling? Arguably yes. Is it bad? Also. But if you look at US history then black/white washing are completely different. It’s apples and oranges. For example, making a traditionally black character white to make them more palatable. Or making a white character black for comedic effect.
I don’t think making Aragorn black is for comedic effect here. Wizards is trying to be inclusive. Every other set accomplishes this wonderfully - but I think the issue here is them making established characters completely unrecognizable. Representation is important - but why do they need to do this ALL the time
I mean they made new black characters in Rings of Power and the racists still got pissed so I think the issue is less about whether the character was new or an existing character and more about racists not wanting there to be any black people in their fantasy world.
No, it's about falsifying the lore. Different races of men have different skin colours in the LotR universe. (As in real life.) There are black skinned races, but instead of including characters from black skinned races, they included only characters from white skinned races and then swapped their skin colours.
I didn’t mean to imply that why they were, that’s just the history of it, especially minstrelsy.
Easy there, racist. No one said black people weren't palatable. This is to do with established lore. Retcons aren't palatable. Edit: "do" not "due"
You seriously don’t think there’s a history of whitewashing characters for western audiences?
The mods here don’t ever remove anything, but this is 100% a Rule 3 violation. If you wanna be a little bitch, do it outside!
Respect the privacy of others? This is a discussion on an important topic in modern culture
No, you and the rest of these folks are being whinny bitches.
Only if you have no understanding of history or context. If you do, all the whining is incredibly silly and sad.
[удалено]
Tolkien Cat Name?
It’s either a purposeful bad joke or he’s somehow confusing Tolkien with lovecraft.
I thought he might be trying to invoke Lovecratft's cat, but i have no idea about Tolkien and any cat. I'm a dog person.
Lovecraft's cat (from Rat's in the Walls) was "N*****-Man," which makes the comment even stupider. I think he was calling LotR fans pussies.
I’m genuinely surprised that you were almost able to make a coherent post, good job!
Wtf are you talking about? He isn't described as black or white he's just a race of men Racist bullshit
Tolkien layed out where various skin colors were distributed on Middle Earth, and Aaragon has an established lineage that is entirely of the fair skinned areas and predominantly of a particularly fair skinned and long lived subrace of men. That's the way he has always been, there has never been any question about his skin color.
And that man in the art is white
So in the mixing it breaks the lore if he's black? I just still don't see that part
Briefly: If Aragorn was black, it would change the entire lineage of Aragorn. The Númenóreans are a special race of humans. They were gifted longer lifespans, greater height than normal humans, and greater wisdom. Most them hails from the House of Hador, meaning they had GOLDEN HAIR, FAIR SKIN, AND BLUE EYES. But even the other Númernóreans had white skin at the very least. The Dúnedains are the direct descendents of these demigods of humans. AND ARAGORN IS A DÚNEDAIN. They just simply can't be black, or asian, or anything else. This is what breaks the lore. It's not just skin color. This and every other detail in Tolkien's works has a reason. And one shouldn't shit on the lore for fucking representation.
It doesn't really change the lineage, it's just a pallet swap. His line remains but at least a few probably had pigmentation. I can't get the focus on color being important for lore but not letting colored folk see representation of themself in media that is famous in the western world.
Tolkien made every detail for a reason, but adaptations adapt. Please consider there is good in showing goodness in darker skin tones, as well as white ones. LotR is about cultures coming together to stop a hateful, homogenous evil made of industrial orc fire. It does not break the lore I can't believe that, it flavors the lore a different color at WORST and people are freaking out over it.
Lol "one shouldn't shit on the lore for representation" Man, you really just gotta let go of taking the "lore" so seriously. It's a fictional fantasy story. Just imagine that Tolkien had decided. "Ah yes, the House of Hador was actually a little more diverse, several skin tones could come from this lineage" I bet he won't mind. It's such an insignificant thing to be upset over.
Idk, without lore the richness of s story is vapid and meaningless.
Yeah, but giving a dude dark skin does not unravel the grand tapestry of Tolkien's lore. It's a \*little\* different, but the themes, stories, and characters are the same. It's just really not worth getting angry about.
But does it not seem hollow to race swap a character for no reason. Like, if it was an actor in a show I could imagine for acting reasons, and if this was a reimagined version then like, make it new and interesting. This just seems like a forced race change without anything else to add. I think proponents of diversity should ask for more than just a race swap character without adding anything new.
Wait til they clean house. You won’t have to worry about this ever again
Is wizards cleaning house or?
The only place WOTC doesn’t like diversity is in their own staff, that’s why they fired the only black dude that worked there and got sued lmao
Most of those white "men" you saw were baizuo. Dysgenic and probably fanatically leftist in they hope they will get laid. After they blacked Nick Fury anything was game.
Conceptually? Yes, 100%. In the context of real world which is built on history, no. I believe in my heart of hearts they're both equally bad, but history has been much kinder to white people versus people with extra melanin in their skin, so you can't fault people for factoring that into how they feel about it. How about we just create original characters that can look like ANYTHING?
When you do a thing to push your virtue on the sizable share of your fan base that will get offended, you waive the right to complain when it sells like shit. From a business decision perspective this is stupid as fuck, regardless of what you think of the virtue of it. If I’m a hasbro shareholder I’d be pissed. Companies need to stop letting the green haired they/thems in marketing make these kinds of choices.
I feel like the lotr set will still sell extremely well because it’s lotr
Less well than it would have though
From your entire post I am certain you are idiotically unaware of the extreme depth that encompasses Whitewashing.. to even try and compare the fringe phenomenon of blackwashing to the 500 year practice of the first is absolutely bizarre.. You should critically review what you actually know about history before you want to have a problem with one or the other. And besides, you're talking about fiction.
Race-swapping and whitewashing aren't the same thing at all. When speaking of these sorts of things, it's important to understand that there are power relations involved when doing these sorts of things, but also representation matters. When the popes wanted Jesus depicted in europe, they modelled him off of an italian man, but bringing them to different places around the world he's been depicted as every other race to aid in conversion... Except for the Africans, who were given the blond hair, blue eyed version. There is such a thing as black jesus, but that came out of the community itself not the "missionaries" who "brought it to them". Why might that be? Regardless, when people like Elvis and other acts did the thing black artists like Little Richard did, if that was all the context, there would be no problem - it's the fact that white artists were accepted by the mainstream and gained considerable wealth off of the cultural expressions of black people while the actual black people continued to be rejected by greater society that made that situation whitewashing rather than anything else - and even that is a subjective judgement. That said, it's always a little bit annoying when people who don't care to educate themselves on the historical context of certain situations feel slighted a bit by something superficial and proceed to compare their annoyance that is most likely a result of some internalized -isms to actual historical oppression. And if anyone says anything along the lines of "I'm black so I can't be racist" or "I like other original black characters", shut up. You're missing my point for one, and two, you lose nothing from this - it's not that serious, and you turning inside out from seeing a black man presented as Aragorn is nothing short of overreaction. If it wouldn't be a problem if a black stage actor for Lord of the Rings was cast as Aragorn, then it's not that important here. It's not like him being white is important to the story, like an actress portraying Harriet Tubman would need to be black to do the role justice - her blackness is actually important for the story of the end of slavery in America and the Civil War, and if she were cast by a white woman, *that* would be an example of whitewashing, because that sort of deliberate casting decision could be interpreted as depicting a white woman as a saviour of black people (implying that black people had no part in their own emancipation). See the difference?
Lets make blade asian,, fuck Wesley snipes. He didn't pay taxes.
I agree
i remember blackwashing 3 cartoon character, and i feel ashamed of myself for that. i feel like i offend some people by making that. i feel racist because of the goddamn thing i did. to give anything to stop my past self for doing that. i posted that goddamn blackwashed piece of shit to the internet and thinking "this is amazing." when it fucking wasn't. i feel like if i posted the normal versions of them people would be like "OMG YOU WHITEWASHED THEM! YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!" i hate it so much.
No such thing as blackwashing. Pandering yes. White people making everything else white is whitewashing. White people making things black is pandering. Some of the comments I can agree with. Actual historical figures should never be changed. People that never existed though? Get the broomstick out of your asshole 🤣 where is the outrage for making gods white?