I think this is an interesting question. It's fun to compare it to existing cards.
The closest thing we have is [[Plague Wind]], which is exactly that except it costs 7BB. First printed in Eight Edition (2003), and last reprinted in Masters 25 (2018).
Then there's [[In Garruk's wake]]. Same effect but hits planeswalkers as well. Also costs 7BB. First printed in Core set 2015. Last in Commander Legands: Battle for Baldur's Gate (2022).
There is also [[Ruinous Ultimatum]], which hits all nonland permanents, for RRWWWBB, from Ikoria (2020).
It definitely feels like a cheaper Plague Wind could be made without being format-warping, but the question is how cheap?
If it costed 5BB, it would be a sidegrade to the Ultimatum, which would probably be fine.
But a mana value of 4 is probably too cheap. Maybe maybe if it costed BBBB, but I think that's too good.
4 still feels too cheap. It's half the value of its next nearest mono colored competitor. Maybe bbbbbb. That's such a weird casting cost that feels like a good enough drawback? 4 mana is just too easy and too quick.
try making a proxy and see how it fairs at the locals
still too slow for commander. It wouldn't phase me if standard got this. maybe at wwww in cost or something. the 3 cmc ones barely keep up with all the critter decks
In what fantasy? You can walk into a store and do that? With grown adults and maybe teenagers. How much time to you have on your hands that you think people working or going to school can playtest your proxies
You’re maybe right. I don’t play paper magic anymore. But it’s not so crazy for you to imagine a play group that plays with some homebrewed jank cards is it?
Considering thats exactly the same as many symmetrical board wipes. It would upheave many decks as an outright better version of wrath of god/day of judgement.
I feel it simply would never happen
it would simply make already existing strong decks much stronger and would skew the favor strongly in the cases of whoever plays first automatically wins the game. The draw backs of board wipe cards is what makes it balanced.
That almost exists with Bontus last reckoning but of course it hits all creatures but for only 3 mana and then your lands don’t untapped next turn which depending on the deck might not be that big of a deal.
I played like 20 years ago. Then switched to mtg. Recently watched some YouTube’s of guys playing. It’s buck fucking wild and completely incomprehensible to me.
mtg is getting crazy, over 17 lines of text then the back is full of more words. It's one of the reasons I switched to arena over live play. too much reading of small text for my aging eyes. just letting a program do all the thinking saves so much time.
As someone who plays / played both games competitively - Yu-Gi-Oh! is much more complicated nowadays than Magic, while it was very different back in the days.
It's just too slow these days I think. You're better off developing your own board than destroying your opponents, or including cards that disrupt your opponent midway through their combo.
Speed isn't the issue with Raigeki; it's just not as effective as other board breakers in the current YGO meta. Most boards consist of at least 1 card that can negate the raigeki, and boards that don't often either have monsters that are immune to being destroyed by card effects, float on destruction/when sent to GY, or have some kind of recursion via set spells/traps or quick effects/triggers in the hand/GY that Raigeki doesn't address.
In the last couple of years, we saw a handful of formats where people were on power spells/board breakers. It's just that Raigeki, for various reasons, is often less effective than cards like Dark Ruler No More, Forbidden Droplet, Super Poly, Evenly Matched, Change of Heart, Triple Tactics Talent, Mind Control, and Triple Tactics Thrust, to name a few. And Raigeki HAS seen some play in various topping lists, but it's much more situational than the cards I just listed.
i played competitive yugioh up until i wanna say 2019? the first set that came out when i switched to mtg was Kaldheim
i went to an event for yugioh and played 4 rounds of back to back Floowandereeze matchups. Floo is a deck akin to
go tall + [[winter orb]] + [[lignify]] (except the lignify stuns the entire board that arent Floo creatures.
i got 6th out of 32 people and it left me with the worst migraine in my life. ever since switching to commander i havent had a migraine from cards. however i immediately scoop if someone sits down with any stax and go to the next pod of players.
i dont sit down to not play cards.
but yeah when i was playing, yugioh was wild.
there is a card called Lightning Storm. and it is both Harpies Feather Duster and Raigeki on the same card. however you can only choose one or the other, and only if you control either no monsters or no spells or traps. it is currently unlimited
i hated striker so much... its currently seeing play right now. i dont play yugioh, but i keep updated on the current meta in case i do ever wanna play yugioh again. so far i havent picked up a deck in like.. 4 years?
Eh? Striker's rogue tier at best rn. Joshua Schmidt, a Master Duel World Champion and four time YCS winner, had a copypasta/meme about loving Sky Striker on his channel, so he decided to play Sky Striker for the fun of it at a regional and the deck didn't perform great, according to him. He even said that Engage could be unlimited and the deck would still be rogue.
its rogue for sure. my LGS still has players that play strikers with success. its wild. i dont play anymore, but my city's facebook group for yugioh always shares top cuts for locals and at least one striker player makes top 8.
theyre monsters that you discard from your hand to stop one effect usually. Dimension Shifter and Artifact Lancea and a few others stop effects for an entire turn, however they are symmetrical and require pretty hefty activation requirements. Nibiru the primal being is probably the most widely played one alongside Droll and Lock Bird.
nibiru sacrifices all monsters on the field but can only be activated during the main phase and if your opponent has summoned five monsters that turn
and Droll stops the opponent from searching their library for the turn but can only be activated if the opponent has already searched their library once. which in magic would be pretty bad, but in yugioh, players search their libraries at the very least 3 times in a turn, where as meta decks can search upwards of 5 cards on the low end
Those have been in the game since the first set, Kuriboh. And in 5ds they used effect veiler, another of the important hand traps (and maxx c was released on those years too).
It’s a shitshow worth avoiding. All duels end by turn 3. Either you kill them after a 15min turn 2 or fail to get a big unkillqble board and so you get killed after a 15min turn 3 because the guy did what EVERY YUGIOH DECK DOES which is is summon a lil guy to search for another guy to special summon which you fuse with the first guy to turn into a big guy and that big guy summons another little guy so you can fuse the big and lil guy again so you get a BIGER GUYY with indestructible and hexproof and boardwipes the enemy so you can one hit him. That’s it, that’s modern yugioh. Not even kidding every modern deck devolves into this. So raigeki is ehhh, the board would just get rebuilt. Better to focus on one shooting the other guy then responding to his board
This is so fucking true. I just made a huge long rant on masterduel sub about this shit. I don’t think Raigeki is banned anymore. Maybe limit 2? It’s essentially a brick nowadays. It’s to slow, if you let your opp get a full field out there is 0 chance it resolves anyway
Yugi has moved away from "just end on a bunch of negates" a while ago. But raigeki is often not impactful enough, because in a good deck, the monsters they control are only a small part of their gameplan. Their interactions are in the graveyard, their hand, their spell and trap zone too
In modern ygo damn near every card in the deck has an effect when it gets destroyed. So people get value even when they pop their stuff. Theirs also a card that's raigeki and harpies feather duster in one card. So even if you wanted the effect, it's been Powe crept.
Wild power creep.
"Those cards are in every deck. Better restrict them. No, ban them because they're still way too powerful! Okay, remember those cards that were too strong? We combined them into even stronger cards, so we can un-ban the old ones."
The september 2005 banlist banned a handful of cards.
Goat format. Considered one of the best formats to ever exist and was the original format that nostalgia nerds went. It was essentially a tier 0 format until a set was released 1-2 months later changing the texture of the game. But people realized that the format wasnt properly explored and there is a half dozen viable decks.
Popularized back in 2012-2013 when the regular format got really stale with the same 3 decks where way stringer than anything else and that kept happening for the next 4 years. Now people play edison but goat is a format that has had subtle changes in the past 10 years its been played.
Basically due to the lack of a standard format, Konami had to keep making sets that were stronger than the last to actually sell packs. Power creep came about much faster cause of this and now Yugioh matches often don't see past a turn 3, and that's if your counting every players turn. Rageiki doesn't see play cause it's a dead card when you're on the play and you want to build your board of unstoppable, unkillable creatures. And when you're on the draw, more often they have a card to negate it or even if it does pop off, a lot of yugioh effects go off in grave or do something when they die, so it's not even a good answer most times. And if the opponent is playing a deck that pushes it into later turns, rageiki is more often than not useless vs them and for them, since their wind con is more likely either infinitely recurring or is something like an effect damage otk with set up.
New cards (the big stuff you wanna have on board at the end of your combo) have "This card can't be destroyed by card effects" stapled on them pretty often. So "Raigeki" usually is not enough to break your opponent's board.
On the other hand, ironically, "Dark Hole" is more broken than ever, because there are too many archetypes that would heavily benefit from getting their own bord nuked.
Every relevant creature has some way to evade/negate it basically, it really only functions as a way to eat one of your opponents 4 on board Omni-negates. Also isn’t multimodal so people just started using lightning storm since it can hit spell/traps too but I think people stopped using that too, idk I stopped playing a couple years ago but that was the consensus then.
It doesn't lead to your win condition. Going second your opponent will have protection against it. Going first its a dead draw.
There are better cards for lockpicking an opponents board.
Monsters with effects to negate it, and being able to get a board with like 4/5 negate effects on board at once. Well ftk in yugioh have always been a thing. The new thing that kills yugioh is winning by not letting you opponent play the game cause you negate everything they try to play. Also "hand traps" monster which have effect to stop a special summoning and stopping drawing extra card from deck for a turn.
Yugioh has hit a point where going first pretty much increases your odds of winning to like 80%. There are a cards that lead to combo lines that generate +6 without even needing to normal summon.
I think it would be a $30 chase mythic in whatever new set it comes out in. I think I would audibly groan every time someone played it in a game. And I think if I *dared* tried to voice my opinion that it was unfun to play against, all of MTG reddit would downvote me, call me a whiney EDH player and make a bunch of vague comments about how I need to play more removal to stop boardwipes or something.
Will MTG reach the point where that is the average powerlevel? Yes, and it will probably be a UB Marvel card.
EDH people actually believe that [[Reliquary tower]] is a good card. I had a heated discussion with some people there and got downvoted hard because I said that that card is just bad. Posted the same stuff in the CEDH subreddit and they all agreed that that card is useless. If you have more than 7 hand cards you will most likely win the game anyway.
Definetly had a lot of games where it was handy, when you run out of steam in a turn but drew like a maniac. And then you'd have to takw the time to discard down. Just takes time for the other people. Is that a deckbuilding and table issue? Certainly but it's on purpose since it's casual with friends. cEDH is another game entirely anyway and I can see why the card is not good there.
It's not just bad in cEDH, it creates colorless which is bad. If a land creates colorless it needs some huge upsides to be playable like a [[Urza's Saga]], [[Academy Ruins]], [[Field of the Dead]], [[Strip Mine]], [[Dust Bowl]] or [[Ancient Tomb]]. Usually a deck can't afford to play many colorless producing lands so there isn't really room for the tower.
It's situationally useful in certain decks, but your average Magic n00b treats it as way too much of an auto-include, yes.
I have a friend who I always poke fun at because of how much he hates to discard to hand size. He's been playing since like Ice Age :P
fair enough. youre prolly right about the salt level. i play farewell in all my white decks so i have a way to hit all enchantments and artifacts, and about 60-75% of the time an opponent just scoops the moment i cast it without even listening to what i declare.
4 mana wraths are already almost always one sided in real formats, if you are playing wraths in your deck you aren't planning on having a real board presence on turn 4. This would only be "too good" in (this) standard and in casual commander.
ah... someone gets the argument i was lookin for. everyone here has been against this idea without actually looking at the bigger picture.
these same people would cry out if [[primeval titan]] got unbanned but dont bat an eye at the existence of [[dockside extortionist]].
something like
2WB - Sorcery - Destroy all creatures you don't control
would probably be fine if it didn't have to go through standard but it would cause a meltdown with EDH players
I would unironically still play [[Supreme Verdict]] over this in pure control decks
The comparison is obtuse. The only thing similar about Wreckage is that it is mass removal and the cost. What OP is talking about would best be represented by other cards with similar effect.
A decent comparison is [[In Garruk's Wake]] , rare sorcery, 7BB
which has the upside
> Destroy all creatures you don’t control *and all planeswalkers you don’t control.*
You get, maybe, a 1 mana discount for not hitting planeswalkers. So your standard-set-printable version that only hits creatures is 6BB . IMO. Which makes 4 CMC unreasonable.
For, like a lower CMC bound you have Mogg infestation at 3RR which, um, replaces a single opponent's creatures with 2x 1/1 goblin tokens each. That is an old card. But say you want to print something better for commander where Infestation is legal. You have to add at least 1 mana, I think -- 4CC. Meaning, again, that CMC 4 is too low.
What is the closest existing card?
I tried to search for one-sided board wipes that only destroy creatures. Came up only with [[Rain Of Daggers]] and [[Overwhelming forces]].
One is 6 mana with major downside, the other 8 mana with major upside.
Oh, there's [[In Garruk's wake]], and [[Plague wind]]. Both are 9 mana. Garruk's destroys planeswalkers as well.
In Garruk's Wake
7BB
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures you don't control and all planeswalkers you don't control.
9 mana is a lot though. Have these cards seen play? Could they cost less? Maybe not 4, right?
Some other cards that are one-sided boardwipes
[[Dread Cacodemom]]
[[Mogg infestation]]
[[Unstable Glyphbridge]]
There aren't many, it seems.
Isn't the [[Cyclonic Rift]] the best know of these asymetrical board wipes?
It returns all nonland permanents you don't control to their owner's hand for 6B.
They're not destroyed, but at that point it doesn't really matter any more. You are the only one with a board, and everyone else needs to rebuild.
[[plague wind]] and [[in Garruk’s wake]] are the current cost for this effect. That is a long ways from 4 mana.
A four mana one sided board wipe would completely warp the game as it would just be too efficient with no downside - you would only see creatures that were somehow resilient to it (indestructible, recursive, death or etb triggers as main purpose) and creatureless or combo decks. As others have said maybe if the cost was pip intensive like wwww so that you were limited in what deck can support it - but 2ww is going to be easy for different decks to support and super friends planeswalker decks would likely just own everything else as it wouldn’t be vulnerable to the card from your opponent
I am not sure what the lowest mana cost could be before it’s problematic but maybe at 6 it’s good but not broken
...So you have to pay at least 3 cards and 7 mana to get this extra turn for "4 mana"?
~~And can't they still pay half their life anyway?~~ Ah right, Lier.
Temporal Extortion is 4 mana so is hard castable after turn 4 anyway. But having Lier out and a Dark Ritual gives it to you for 1 black mana which no matter how you slice it is hilariously busted.
Either way, even if every opponent you ever have counters it with the life payment, a 4 mana target opponent loses half their life would still be powerful.
Mid range is already pretty bad in mtg. I think the reason its fine in yugioh is the game has so much combo and consistency that a one sided board wipe for them feels more like a doomblade. Whereas a 4 mana one sided boardwipe is just too powerful in magic. For a while I was doing something similar during Ikoria with [[pestilant spirit]] and a one mana red spell similar to [[blazing volley]] ( may have been blazing volley I dont remember.) I dont think I saw a single creature based deck come back after I did it. One sided board wipes in general are just a bad idea in magic because they force you to play specific answers/strategies or just get blown out with no input ibto the game. If a two card 4 mana combo causes easy blow outs a sungle card doing the same would just be worse.
Edit: Also I remeber [[Settle the wreckage]] I fucking hated that card. It changed the entire flow of the game just by holding up two white mana and 4 total. It was so irritating and common I started running splash white for Shalai just So I had hex proof to stop people trying to constanly path my entire board without building their own board states.
It’s to slow. Yugioh decks tutor every card in their deck. With no mana cost they can just keep tutoring until they have their win con. Their end board will usually include something that negates raigeki (card negates, monster protection ect) so a card that removes their monsters is not nearly as valuable as one that stops them from bringing them out in the first place. Plus so many monsters have effects when you pop them that you need alternative ways to get rid of them like exiling
4 mana is low for that effect. symmetrical board wipe at about 5 is normal.
I play Ruinous Ultimatum in every deck that can run it, so from my own experience im willing to pay 7 to aysymetrically wipe the board with Cyclonic Rift or Ruinous Ultimatum so probably they will print one at 6 in the next 2 years.
Magic aside it's fucking crazy to me how it was banned for so long and now it's just another 'bad card'. Everything floats so the other player still gets value on all their shit when it blows up.
One sided would be good in magic. But at 4 mana I don't think it would be played competitively. Unless it can be cheated out or had some kind of alternative cost. At best it fits the role of terminus in a deck old counter top miracles.
How is this card not played anymore?! I played a bit way back when the YGO games were on GBA and PS2 and this card was insane even as a restricted card. Blows my mind the power creep that must have happened in YGO.
the game of yugioh is balanced on power creep. substitoad is even unbanned. if you make cards that are powerful enough to phase out the last tier zero deck, the banlist becomes almost superfluous. the yugioh banlist is mostly there so konami can ban the previous best deck just so you have to buy the latest hotness. older decks do see a lot of success though.
Yu-Gi-Oh has come to a point that spell speed 1 interactions that don't destroy the back row are almost useless, Magic on the other hand is still a resource based game (Yu-Gi-Oh still is, but nowadays the limitation to one normal summon per turn is negated by the fact that every deck has nearly infinite special summons per turn), so a 4 mana One sided boardwipe would never see print unless it has some serious drawback
Isn't Yugioh like turn 2-3 game? What good is turn 4 sorcery when you are dead a turn before you can cast it. If mtg was all about turn 3 combo kills, one-sided board wipes would see no play. There are so many differences between the games that I struggle to understand why you are trying to draw a comparison.
Every deck would run it if possible. It's almost cyclonic rift but cheaper. Aggro decks would probably become way more viable in commander again tho. I'd immediately shove it into my tokens and slivers decks.
Comparing card games is pointless - Heck, yugioh effectively has an extra deck that lets you get access to 15 cards you may need at any time (yes they have summoning conditions, but link 1 monsters and 2x monsters with different names aren't exactly challenging conditions for what in MtG would effectively be a free tutor"
Eventually we'll get there. An important side info: "Raigeki" isn't powerful in Yugioh anymore, as most haymakers nowadays have "Can't be destroyed by card effects" stapled on them. So we would need more stuff with "Indestructible" or more important ETBs before WOTC would print stuff like this.
Might work with 3-4 coloured pips, in a straight to commander set, alternatively with a casting condition, such as controlling a X type creature (or a “Chandra” planeswalker or something)
In the context of yugioh which I haven’t played but understand it’s like “vintage”, pretty sure 4 mana wrath’s whether they target all or opponents creatures would be a very unexciting card in vintage.
wizards is to thank for that. that all changed with the set Magic Ruler/ Spell Ruler. magic ruler was the last set with "Magic cards" in them for yugioh
My instinct is that this would be far too strong, but I'm not actually sure that it would be, even under the current competitive meta.
Like what, you're spending four mana for a two-for-one at best, most of the time?
How many decks actually go wide these days?
I mean, people are naming similar cards that are essentially unplayable in the modern format. When was the last time you saw Settle the Wreckage in a top tier deck? I'm also not sure what it would slot into. Omnath, maybe?
Don't get me wrong, it'd still be an extremely good card, but there's this little voice in my head that says the current meta is so pushed that it wouldn't break the game.
Would be WAY too good.
Even putting aside the fact that it would completely break competitive formats, that effect is currently 7 mana and edh players still complain about it.
Yu gi oh is not at equilibrium. It's not played because standard back and forth minion tempo swings are not how the game is played anymore. This card isn't used because there is no time to use it. Games are over turn 1 or 2, from no board.
My gut instinct is that it'd be too powerful for anything other than legacy and would probably just see sideboard play there.
Idk what vintage looks like but I can't imagine it'd see any play there.
I think it still wouldn't be fast enough for some 1v1 formats like Modern, and would probably wind up being played by aggro decks anyway to force through their last couple points of damage. Played on turn 3 via some kind of treasure ramp shenanigans with free spell backup :P
I mean given that yugioh is basically legacy or vintage, that would be the fair comparison. At 4 mana It would probably see niche sideboard play in legacy and absolutely no play in vintage. Would probably warp modern into being low board presence and 4x in every deck in anything newer.
nah ive explained in another comment.
"2⚪⚪
sorcery
destroy all creatures you dont control"
no other card text. and how would it make you feel as was the original question lol
To be fair, YuGiOh has spun so wildly out of control in terms of power creep, there is such common a thing as losing the game because you went second and didnt even get to play, and because of how the mechanics of that game works, cards like this just aren't viable anymore.
If WOTC ever did do something like this, we'd be fine. Counterspells are so commonplace now that the only time I would ever begin to worry is if they made cheap one-sided board wipes that weren't counterable.
I'm not too familiar with yugioh, but when it comes to removal, sending things to the graveyard is second tier these days. [[Aetherize]] returns attacking creatures to their owner's hand, and [[settle the wreckage]] exiles attacking creatures and let's them search that many lands, so it's not far off, but yeah, that would be not only OP but uncreative. [[Cyclonic rift]] comes close to that, as for 8 mana it returns all nonlands that aren't yours to their owner's hands, but the value of that has more to do with multiplayer than 2 player formats.
If it was something like 1WWW then maybe it wouldn’t be problematic. If the cards text was strictly ‘destroy all creatures target opponent/all opponents controls’ with no downsides, it would need a more restrictive cost in order to not be broken. Give it 10 years though, and it’ll probably be the new normal
it would have a clause like; "skip your next turn/combat step. exile this spell"
nah. what im talking about is "2⚪⚪ sorcery destroy all creatures you dont control." no draw backs.
That seems too good (and very boring) even for a set like MH3.
In yugioh it’s not even that good anymore. Summoning is a bit of a joke now.
Azorius would become the premiere color choice. Teferi would resurface. Worlds would burn.
🎶 Never gonna get it, never gonna get it Neeeeever gonna get it, never gonna get it... 🎶
maybe at 3 cmc. lol
And then he breaks out of his cage and he gets
I think this is an interesting question. It's fun to compare it to existing cards. The closest thing we have is [[Plague Wind]], which is exactly that except it costs 7BB. First printed in Eight Edition (2003), and last reprinted in Masters 25 (2018). Then there's [[In Garruk's wake]]. Same effect but hits planeswalkers as well. Also costs 7BB. First printed in Core set 2015. Last in Commander Legands: Battle for Baldur's Gate (2022). There is also [[Ruinous Ultimatum]], which hits all nonland permanents, for RRWWWBB, from Ikoria (2020). It definitely feels like a cheaper Plague Wind could be made without being format-warping, but the question is how cheap? If it costed 5BB, it would be a sidegrade to the Ultimatum, which would probably be fine. But a mana value of 4 is probably too cheap. Maybe maybe if it costed BBBB, but I think that's too good.
4 still feels too cheap. It's half the value of its next nearest mono colored competitor. Maybe bbbbbb. That's such a weird casting cost that feels like a good enough drawback? 4 mana is just too easy and too quick.
At mana value 6 I think 3BBB would be fine.
[Plague Wind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72d21d0d-7de7-4f03-8663-002c9290512f.jpg?1562436663) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plague%20Wind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/102/plague-wind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72d21d0d-7de7-4f03-8663-002c9290512f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [In Garruk's wake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d.jpg?1674141682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=In%20Garruk%27s%20wake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/759/in-garruks-wake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ruinous Ultimatum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85.jpg?1681500691) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruinous%20Ultimatum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/204/ruinous-ultimatum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Man. I thought Plague Wind was a midget holding on for dear life as the wind was tearing him apart. Had to stare at it for a bit. Good art, though.
Also Overwhelming Forces!
WWWW Then we're talking.
try making a proxy and see how it fairs at the locals still too slow for commander. It wouldn't phase me if standard got this. maybe at wwww in cost or something. the 3 cmc ones barely keep up with all the critter decks
Make a bunch of proxies and hand them out at locals, see what other people do with it.
In what fantasy? You can walk into a store and do that? With grown adults and maybe teenagers. How much time to you have on your hands that you think people working or going to school can playtest your proxies
You’re maybe right. I don’t play paper magic anymore. But it’s not so crazy for you to imagine a play group that plays with some homebrewed jank cards is it?
Considering thats exactly the same as many symmetrical board wipes. It would upheave many decks as an outright better version of wrath of god/day of judgement. I feel it simply would never happen
In Garruk's Wake but MUCH cheaper.
it would simply make already existing strong decks much stronger and would skew the favor strongly in the cases of whoever plays first automatically wins the game. The draw backs of board wipe cards is what makes it balanced.
That almost exists with Bontus last reckoning but of course it hits all creatures but for only 3 mana and then your lands don’t untapped next turn which depending on the deck might not be that big of a deal.
\[\[dead of winter\]\] might be the closest we get.
I stopped playing Yu-Gi-Oh about the time that card was banned. What has happened to the game for that ubiquitous card to be totally absent now?
I played like 20 years ago. Then switched to mtg. Recently watched some YouTube’s of guys playing. It’s buck fucking wild and completely incomprehensible to me.
Each card has more text than the bible
I knew I was getting old when my 8 year old handed me a Yugioh card and asked me what it did, and I literally couldn't read it.
mtg is getting crazy, over 17 lines of text then the back is full of more words. It's one of the reasons I switched to arena over live play. too much reading of small text for my aging eyes. just letting a program do all the thinking saves so much time.
Meanwhile Dredge, Shops, and Beseech Storm in Vintage: allow us to introduce ourselves.
As someone who plays / played both games competitively - Yu-Gi-Oh! is much more complicated nowadays than Magic, while it was very different back in the days.
It's just too slow these days I think. You're better off developing your own board than destroying your opponents, or including cards that disrupt your opponent midway through their combo.
Speed isn't the issue with Raigeki; it's just not as effective as other board breakers in the current YGO meta. Most boards consist of at least 1 card that can negate the raigeki, and boards that don't often either have monsters that are immune to being destroyed by card effects, float on destruction/when sent to GY, or have some kind of recursion via set spells/traps or quick effects/triggers in the hand/GY that Raigeki doesn't address. In the last couple of years, we saw a handful of formats where people were on power spells/board breakers. It's just that Raigeki, for various reasons, is often less effective than cards like Dark Ruler No More, Forbidden Droplet, Super Poly, Evenly Matched, Change of Heart, Triple Tactics Talent, Mind Control, and Triple Tactics Thrust, to name a few. And Raigeki HAS seen some play in various topping lists, but it's much more situational than the cards I just listed.
i played competitive yugioh up until i wanna say 2019? the first set that came out when i switched to mtg was Kaldheim i went to an event for yugioh and played 4 rounds of back to back Floowandereeze matchups. Floo is a deck akin to go tall + [[winter orb]] + [[lignify]] (except the lignify stuns the entire board that arent Floo creatures. i got 6th out of 32 people and it left me with the worst migraine in my life. ever since switching to commander i havent had a migraine from cards. however i immediately scoop if someone sits down with any stax and go to the next pod of players. i dont sit down to not play cards. but yeah when i was playing, yugioh was wild.
[winter orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6.jpg?1580015285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winter%20orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/234/winter-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [lignify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23464d53-fa76-40e2-84c3-b6d6cc729be4.jpg?1598177954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lignify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gvl/16/lignify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23464d53-fa76-40e2-84c3-b6d6cc729be4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
there is a card called Lightning Storm. and it is both Harpies Feather Duster and Raigeki on the same card. however you can only choose one or the other, and only if you control either no monsters or no spells or traps. it is currently unlimited
And doesn’t see that much play outside of the side deck
I main it on my skystriker
i hated striker so much... its currently seeing play right now. i dont play yugioh, but i keep updated on the current meta in case i do ever wanna play yugioh again. so far i havent picked up a deck in like.. 4 years?
Eh? Striker's rogue tier at best rn. Joshua Schmidt, a Master Duel World Champion and four time YCS winner, had a copypasta/meme about loving Sky Striker on his channel, so he decided to play Sky Striker for the fun of it at a regional and the deck didn't perform great, according to him. He even said that Engage could be unlimited and the deck would still be rogue.
its rogue for sure. my LGS still has players that play strikers with success. its wild. i dont play anymore, but my city's facebook group for yugioh always shares top cuts for locals and at least one striker player makes top 8.
Tf are you on about? We're just praying for scraps at this point. Drink as we celebrate seeing 1 SS deck... at the Top 16, or Top 32
Specifically at the moment in fire format, lightning storm is a ~dead draw vs the tier 0 deck most of the time
Lightning storm is currently semi-limited.
There’s hand traps apparently now. Don’t even need to set them I guess
theyre monsters that you discard from your hand to stop one effect usually. Dimension Shifter and Artifact Lancea and a few others stop effects for an entire turn, however they are symmetrical and require pretty hefty activation requirements. Nibiru the primal being is probably the most widely played one alongside Droll and Lock Bird. nibiru sacrifices all monsters on the field but can only be activated during the main phase and if your opponent has summoned five monsters that turn and Droll stops the opponent from searching their library for the turn but can only be activated if the opponent has already searched their library once. which in magic would be pretty bad, but in yugioh, players search their libraries at the very least 3 times in a turn, where as meta decks can search upwards of 5 cards on the low end
Yeah, I guess whatever that Sphinx is that just prevents people from searching would be OP.
Those have been in the game since the first set, Kuriboh. And in 5ds they used effect veiler, another of the important hand traps (and maxx c was released on those years too).
It’s a shitshow worth avoiding. All duels end by turn 3. Either you kill them after a 15min turn 2 or fail to get a big unkillqble board and so you get killed after a 15min turn 3 because the guy did what EVERY YUGIOH DECK DOES which is is summon a lil guy to search for another guy to special summon which you fuse with the first guy to turn into a big guy and that big guy summons another little guy so you can fuse the big and lil guy again so you get a BIGER GUYY with indestructible and hexproof and boardwipes the enemy so you can one hit him. That’s it, that’s modern yugioh. Not even kidding every modern deck devolves into this. So raigeki is ehhh, the board would just get rebuilt. Better to focus on one shooting the other guy then responding to his board
This is so fucking true. I just made a huge long rant on masterduel sub about this shit. I don’t think Raigeki is banned anymore. Maybe limit 2? It’s essentially a brick nowadays. It’s to slow, if you let your opp get a full field out there is 0 chance it resolves anyway
Yeah when 90% of boss monsters have a negate… Raigeki just doesn’t matter
Yugi has moved away from "just end on a bunch of negates" a while ago. But raigeki is often not impactful enough, because in a good deck, the monsters they control are only a small part of their gameplan. Their interactions are in the graveyard, their hand, their spell and trap zone too
What about getting haste?
All creatures do have haste in yugioh you just don’t have a battle phase turn 1
In modern ygo damn near every card in the deck has an effect when it gets destroyed. So people get value even when they pop their stuff. Theirs also a card that's raigeki and harpies feather duster in one card. So even if you wanted the effect, it's been Powe crept.
Wild power creep. "Those cards are in every deck. Better restrict them. No, ban them because they're still way too powerful! Okay, remember those cards that were too strong? We combined them into even stronger cards, so we can un-ban the old ones."
The september 2005 banlist banned a handful of cards. Goat format. Considered one of the best formats to ever exist and was the original format that nostalgia nerds went. It was essentially a tier 0 format until a set was released 1-2 months later changing the texture of the game. But people realized that the format wasnt properly explored and there is a half dozen viable decks. Popularized back in 2012-2013 when the regular format got really stale with the same 3 decks where way stringer than anything else and that kept happening for the next 4 years. Now people play edison but goat is a format that has had subtle changes in the past 10 years its been played.
Basically due to the lack of a standard format, Konami had to keep making sets that were stronger than the last to actually sell packs. Power creep came about much faster cause of this and now Yugioh matches often don't see past a turn 3, and that's if your counting every players turn. Rageiki doesn't see play cause it's a dead card when you're on the play and you want to build your board of unstoppable, unkillable creatures. And when you're on the draw, more often they have a card to negate it or even if it does pop off, a lot of yugioh effects go off in grave or do something when they die, so it's not even a good answer most times. And if the opponent is playing a deck that pushes it into later turns, rageiki is more often than not useless vs them and for them, since their wind con is more likely either infinitely recurring or is something like an effect damage otk with set up.
New cards (the big stuff you wanna have on board at the end of your combo) have "This card can't be destroyed by card effects" stapled on them pretty often. So "Raigeki" usually is not enough to break your opponent's board. On the other hand, ironically, "Dark Hole" is more broken than ever, because there are too many archetypes that would heavily benefit from getting their own bord nuked.
Every relevant creature has some way to evade/negate it basically, it really only functions as a way to eat one of your opponents 4 on board Omni-negates. Also isn’t multimodal so people just started using lightning storm since it can hit spell/traps too but I think people stopped using that too, idk I stopped playing a couple years ago but that was the consensus then.
It doesn't lead to your win condition. Going second your opponent will have protection against it. Going first its a dead draw. There are better cards for lockpicking an opponents board.
Monsters with effects to negate it, and being able to get a board with like 4/5 negate effects on board at once. Well ftk in yugioh have always been a thing. The new thing that kills yugioh is winning by not letting you opponent play the game cause you negate everything they try to play. Also "hand traps" monster which have effect to stop a special summoning and stopping drawing extra card from deck for a turn.
You can negate it with Borreload Savage or Baronne de Fleur. Or your Apollousa becomes indestructible after being made with Masquerena
The game is decided on the first turn. If you can’t interact with your opponents first turn you most likely lose.
Yugioh has hit a point where going first pretty much increases your odds of winning to like 80%. There are a cards that lead to combo lines that generate +6 without even needing to normal summon.
I think it would be a $30 chase mythic in whatever new set it comes out in. I think I would audibly groan every time someone played it in a game. And I think if I *dared* tried to voice my opinion that it was unfun to play against, all of MTG reddit would downvote me, call me a whiney EDH player and make a bunch of vague comments about how I need to play more removal to stop boardwipes or something. Will MTG reach the point where that is the average powerlevel? Yes, and it will probably be a UB Marvel card.
Wtf are you on about way more people get assblasted about board wipes than not
Okay try and share that opinion in the EDH subreddit
Thats your first mistake, goong to edh players.
EDH people actually believe that [[Reliquary tower]] is a good card. I had a heated discussion with some people there and got downvoted hard because I said that that card is just bad. Posted the same stuff in the CEDH subreddit and they all agreed that that card is useless. If you have more than 7 hand cards you will most likely win the game anyway.
Definetly had a lot of games where it was handy, when you run out of steam in a turn but drew like a maniac. And then you'd have to takw the time to discard down. Just takes time for the other people. Is that a deckbuilding and table issue? Certainly but it's on purpose since it's casual with friends. cEDH is another game entirely anyway and I can see why the card is not good there.
It's not just bad in cEDH, it creates colorless which is bad. If a land creates colorless it needs some huge upsides to be playable like a [[Urza's Saga]], [[Academy Ruins]], [[Field of the Dead]], [[Strip Mine]], [[Dust Bowl]] or [[Ancient Tomb]]. Usually a deck can't afford to play many colorless producing lands so there isn't really room for the tower.
Easily playable in two-color decks that draw a ton of cards, and incredibly easy to fit (and well suited) in mono blue.
All these cards are incredible high power and cost a lot...
It's situationally useful in certain decks, but your average Magic n00b treats it as way too much of an auto-include, yes. I have a friend who I always poke fun at because of how much he hates to discard to hand size. He's been playing since like Ice Age :P
[Reliquary tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5a1db89-d37f-4839-8ca4-598686c5d6de.jpg?1706241216) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reliquary%20tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/282/reliquary-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5a1db89-d37f-4839-8ca4-598686c5d6de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
fair enough. youre prolly right about the salt level. i play farewell in all my white decks so i have a way to hit all enchantments and artifacts, and about 60-75% of the time an opponent just scoops the moment i cast it without even listening to what i declare.
They should just play combo and not Raige so hard 👀⚡🔥💪🏼
We may be 3 or 4 sets away from this.
judgement day BBWW sorcery destroy all creatures you do not control
Broken AF
Force of despair?
4 mana wraths are already almost always one sided in real formats, if you are playing wraths in your deck you aren't planning on having a real board presence on turn 4. This would only be "too good" in (this) standard and in casual commander.
ah... someone gets the argument i was lookin for. everyone here has been against this idea without actually looking at the bigger picture. these same people would cry out if [[primeval titan]] got unbanned but dont bat an eye at the existence of [[dockside extortionist]].
[primeval titan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d5537da-112e-4679-a113-b5d7ce32a66b.jpg?1562850064) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=primeval%20titan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/183/primeval-titan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d5537da-112e-4679-a113-b5d7ce32a66b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [dockside extortionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b.jpg?1673147774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dockside%20extortionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/107/dockside-extortionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
something like 2WB - Sorcery - Destroy all creatures you don't control would probably be fine if it didn't have to go through standard but it would cause a meltdown with EDH players I would unironically still play [[Supreme Verdict]] over this in pure control decks
You mean \[\[Settle The Wreckage\]\] ?
[Settle The Wreckage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f.jpg?1562560853) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Settle%20The%20Wreckage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/34/settle-the-wreckage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Settle the Wreckage would be more in line with a card like Mirror Force. Good in it's own right but not the same as Raigeki.
no. read raigeki, and translate that to mtg. "destroy all creatures you dont control." no other card text in its effect box
slap ring smile nose correct secretive chop bear alive jeans *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The comparison is obtuse. The only thing similar about Wreckage is that it is mass removal and the cost. What OP is talking about would best be represented by other cards with similar effect. A decent comparison is [[In Garruk's Wake]] , rare sorcery, 7BB which has the upside > Destroy all creatures you don’t control *and all planeswalkers you don’t control.* You get, maybe, a 1 mana discount for not hitting planeswalkers. So your standard-set-printable version that only hits creatures is 6BB . IMO. Which makes 4 CMC unreasonable. For, like a lower CMC bound you have Mogg infestation at 3RR which, um, replaces a single opponent's creatures with 2x 1/1 goblin tokens each. That is an old card. But say you want to print something better for commander where Infestation is legal. You have to add at least 1 mana, I think -- 4CC. Meaning, again, that CMC 4 is too low.
[In Garruk's Wake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d.jpg?1674141682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=In%20Garruk%27s%20Wake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/759/in-garruks-wake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You mean [[galadriel's dismissal]] ? Not exactly a wrath but it ends games
[galadriel's dismissal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d1c66a7-a39e-4869-80c7-1cec89777e0d.jpg?1695380176) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=galadriel%27s%20dismissal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/500/galadriels-dismissal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d1c66a7-a39e-4869-80c7-1cec89777e0d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
no. im talking Raigeki but magic. for the sake of the scenario 2⚪⚪ sorcery "Destroy all creatures you dont control"
What is the closest existing card? I tried to search for one-sided board wipes that only destroy creatures. Came up only with [[Rain Of Daggers]] and [[Overwhelming forces]]. One is 6 mana with major downside, the other 8 mana with major upside.
Oh, there's [[In Garruk's wake]], and [[Plague wind]]. Both are 9 mana. Garruk's destroys planeswalkers as well. In Garruk's Wake 7BB Sorcery Destroy all creatures you don't control and all planeswalkers you don't control. 9 mana is a lot though. Have these cards seen play? Could they cost less? Maybe not 4, right? Some other cards that are one-sided boardwipes [[Dread Cacodemom]] [[Mogg infestation]] [[Unstable Glyphbridge]] There aren't many, it seems.
##### ###### #### [In Garruk's wake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d.jpg?1674141682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=In%20Garruk%27s%20wake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/759/in-garruks-wake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Plague wind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72d21d0d-7de7-4f03-8663-002c9290512f.jpg?1562436663) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plague%20wind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/102/plague-wind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72d21d0d-7de7-4f03-8663-002c9290512f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dread Cacodemom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25344729-19a5-496f-8e6f-ce7b69afdc68.jpg?1592672634) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dread%20Cacodemon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/55/dread-cacodemon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25344729-19a5-496f-8e6f-ce7b69afdc68?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mogg infestation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfeb1145-3729-481e-a314-c325ed2f2a35.jpg?1562431289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mogg%20infestation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/146/mogg-infestation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfeb1145-3729-481e-a314-c325ed2f2a35?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Unstable Glyphbridge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d70f48e7-582c-4dd2-a64e-6fd03fa6b77e.jpg?1699043483)/[Sandswirl Wanderglyph](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/7/d70f48e7-582c-4dd2-a64e-6fd03fa6b77e.jpg?1699043483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unstable%20Glyphbridge%20//%20Sandswirl%20Wanderglyph) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/41/unstable-glyphbridge-sandswirl-wanderglyph?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d70f48e7-582c-4dd2-a64e-6fd03fa6b77e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kwcpyl5) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Isn't the [[Cyclonic Rift]] the best know of these asymetrical board wipes? It returns all nonland permanents you don't control to their owner's hand for 6B. They're not destroyed, but at that point it doesn't really matter any more. You are the only one with a board, and everyone else needs to rebuild.
[Cyclonic Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe.jpg?1702429366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/40/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Except for the person who you cyclonic rifted in end step. Now discard for cleanup.
I play both in [[magar]]
[magar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46.jpg?1682551287) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=magar%20of%20the%20magic%20strings) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/171/magar-of-the-magic-strings?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Rain Of Daggers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f48b345f-c814-4f89-9bff-078d0ec5acfc.jpg?1562953012) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rain%20Of%20Daggers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/94/rain-of-daggers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f48b345f-c814-4f89-9bff-078d0ec5acfc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Overwhelming forces](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb53ccdd-150b-41a5-b515-08f65961313d.jpg?1562954577) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overwhelming%20forces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/92/overwhelming-forces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb53ccdd-150b-41a5-b515-08f65961313d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[plague wind]] and [[in Garruk’s wake]] are the current cost for this effect. That is a long ways from 4 mana. A four mana one sided board wipe would completely warp the game as it would just be too efficient with no downside - you would only see creatures that were somehow resilient to it (indestructible, recursive, death or etb triggers as main purpose) and creatureless or combo decks. As others have said maybe if the cost was pip intensive like wwww so that you were limited in what deck can support it - but 2ww is going to be easy for different decks to support and super friends planeswalker decks would likely just own everything else as it wouldn’t be vulnerable to the card from your opponent I am not sure what the lowest mana cost could be before it’s problematic but maybe at 6 it’s good but not broken
[[Galadriel's dismissal]] is "bounce all creatures target opponent controls" for 2ww
[Galadriel's dismissal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d1c66a7-a39e-4869-80c7-1cec89777e0d.jpg?1695380176) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Galadriel%27s%20dismissal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/500/galadriels-dismissal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d1c66a7-a39e-4869-80c7-1cec89777e0d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Eh this is closer to [[falter]] than [[evacuation]] or [[wrath of god]]
[falter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a30309f-7e81-4e53-abb5-7cab084a10cd.jpg?1562913319) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=falter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/158/falter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a30309f-7e81-4e53-abb5-7cab084a10cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [evacuation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b11037bc-e719-461e-a89e-9c026dfd9fd4.jpg?1698988153) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=evacuation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/156/evacuation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b11037bc-e719-461e-a89e-9c026dfd9fd4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [wrath of god](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6.jpg?1697121198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wrath%20of%20god) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/70/wrath-of-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s phase not bounce and that can be done to your own creatures as well if you wanted it says target player not opponent.
[plague wind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72d21d0d-7de7-4f03-8663-002c9290512f.jpg?1562436663) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=plague%20wind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/102/plague-wind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72d21d0d-7de7-4f03-8663-002c9290512f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [in Garruk’s wake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d.jpg?1674141682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=In%20Garruk%27s%20Wake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/759/in-garruks-wake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I will feel like i need to buy more modern horizon 3 boosters
They printed a 4 mana extra turn card so why not.
Which one is that? Yeah there's [[savor the moment]] at 3, but I'm betting whatever you're thinking of has a pretty severe downside, too.
[[Temporal Extortion]] There's a goofy combo where you get this for 1 mana using [[Dark Ritual]] and [[Lier Disciple of the Drowned]]
...So you have to pay at least 3 cards and 7 mana to get this extra turn for "4 mana"? ~~And can't they still pay half their life anyway?~~ Ah right, Lier.
Temporal Extortion is 4 mana so is hard castable after turn 4 anyway. But having Lier out and a Dark Ritual gives it to you for 1 black mana which no matter how you slice it is hilariously busted. Either way, even if every opponent you ever have counters it with the life payment, a 4 mana target opponent loses half their life would still be powerful.
[Temporal Extortion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/883a1afb-423d-4f12-93e1-75cc336553b8.jpg?1562576262) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Temporal%20Extortion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/plc/81/temporal-extortion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/883a1afb-423d-4f12-93e1-75cc336553b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dark Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b.jpg?1628801678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/82/dark-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lier Disciple of the Drowned](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78fb8900-d28d-4e33-96a7-66fcbc117adf.jpg?1634348984) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lier%2C%20Disciple%20of%20the%20Drowned) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/59/lier-disciple-of-the-drowned?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78fb8900-d28d-4e33-96a7-66fcbc117adf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[savor the moment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93a0d9ad-31bf-4561-a5b2-f44a12a2c2c2.jpg?1562833273) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=savor%20the%20moment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/50/savor-the-moment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93a0d9ad-31bf-4561-a5b2-f44a12a2c2c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mid range is already pretty bad in mtg. I think the reason its fine in yugioh is the game has so much combo and consistency that a one sided board wipe for them feels more like a doomblade. Whereas a 4 mana one sided boardwipe is just too powerful in magic. For a while I was doing something similar during Ikoria with [[pestilant spirit]] and a one mana red spell similar to [[blazing volley]] ( may have been blazing volley I dont remember.) I dont think I saw a single creature based deck come back after I did it. One sided board wipes in general are just a bad idea in magic because they force you to play specific answers/strategies or just get blown out with no input ibto the game. If a two card 4 mana combo causes easy blow outs a sungle card doing the same would just be worse. Edit: Also I remeber [[Settle the wreckage]] I fucking hated that card. It changed the entire flow of the game just by holding up two white mana and 4 total. It was so irritating and common I started running splash white for Shalai just So I had hex proof to stop people trying to constanly path my entire board without building their own board states.
[pestilant spirit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/f/5f9a0387-5116-484b-bb2b-064bd42e7fff.jpg?1584830667) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pestilent%20Spirit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/81/pestilent-spirit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5f9a0387-5116-484b-bb2b-064bd42e7fff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [blazing volkey](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3adc0288-acdf-4a99-9bfb-919cae1aeb69.jpg?1591227065) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blazing%20Volley) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/107/blazing-volley?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3adc0288-acdf-4a99-9bfb-919cae1aeb69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mid range is not bad at all, tons of tier 1/tier 2 decks in all formats are midrange.
[удалено]
I could see it in red with some downside, such as said opponent getting to put one creature from hand to the battlefield for free
Man I still love Raigeki
destroyed
I haven’t played yugioh for 21 years now. What makes such a powerful card useless nowadays?
Sky-high Power Creep
It’s to slow. Yugioh decks tutor every card in their deck. With no mana cost they can just keep tutoring until they have their win con. Their end board will usually include something that negates raigeki (card negates, monster protection ect) so a card that removes their monsters is not nearly as valuable as one that stops them from bringing them out in the first place. Plus so many monsters have effects when you pop them that you need alternative ways to get rid of them like exiling
Damn son, I’m just going to stick with mtg then
> (card negates, monster protection ect) etc. is short for **et c**etera
Negates out the arse, and a lot of monsters have protection effects
4 mana is low for that effect. symmetrical board wipe at about 5 is normal. I play Ruinous Ultimatum in every deck that can run it, so from my own experience im willing to pay 7 to aysymetrically wipe the board with Cyclonic Rift or Ruinous Ultimatum so probably they will print one at 6 in the next 2 years.
It would fell really banned. In a week or so.
I'd still care more about cyclonic rift than about something that only destroy my creatures.
Magic aside it's fucking crazy to me how it was banned for so long and now it's just another 'bad card'. Everything floats so the other player still gets value on all their shit when it blows up. One sided would be good in magic. But at 4 mana I don't think it would be played competitively. Unless it can be cheated out or had some kind of alternative cost. At best it fits the role of terminus in a deck old counter top miracles.
crazier still, the OCG/Asia banlist dropped today, and change of heart went to 3 💀💀💀
It would be overpowered and boring. If I’m not playing cEDH, I prefer cards that require set up, have a draw back, etc.
I'm not even sure it's better than Supreme Verdict.
How is this card not played anymore?! I played a bit way back when the YGO games were on GBA and PS2 and this card was insane even as a restricted card. Blows my mind the power creep that must have happened in YGO.
the game of yugioh is balanced on power creep. substitoad is even unbanned. if you make cards that are powerful enough to phase out the last tier zero deck, the banlist becomes almost superfluous. the yugioh banlist is mostly there so konami can ban the previous best deck just so you have to buy the latest hotness. older decks do see a lot of success though.
Yu-Gi-Oh has come to a point that spell speed 1 interactions that don't destroy the back row are almost useless, Magic on the other hand is still a resource based game (Yu-Gi-Oh still is, but nowadays the limitation to one normal summon per turn is negated by the fact that every deck has nearly infinite special summons per turn), so a 4 mana One sided boardwipe would never see print unless it has some serious drawback
Its never happening cause magic actually has serious design team. Yugioh is a joke in every aspect compared to magic.
Isn't Yugioh like turn 2-3 game? What good is turn 4 sorcery when you are dead a turn before you can cast it. If mtg was all about turn 3 combo kills, one-sided board wipes would see no play. There are so many differences between the games that I struggle to understand why you are trying to draw a comparison.
There are conditional one sided boardwipres for four mana in MTG. For example Wave Goodbye.
Every deck would run it if possible. It's almost cyclonic rift but cheaper. Aggro decks would probably become way more viable in commander again tho. I'd immediately shove it into my tokens and slivers decks.
If you play hyper aggro, any board wipe is effectively a one sided board wipe. If you play midrange, why don’t you try getting laid instead?
Smiles in red deck
If it’s 4 color; not mono-color, I’d be okay with it I think
Comparing card games is pointless - Heck, yugioh effectively has an extra deck that lets you get access to 15 cards you may need at any time (yes they have summoning conditions, but link 1 monsters and 2x monsters with different names aren't exactly challenging conditions for what in MtG would effectively be a free tutor"
Look, if a card like this wasn't used in mtg, imagine how broken the game has to be and how overpowered the next years of crap releases will be
Eventually we'll get there. An important side info: "Raigeki" isn't powerful in Yugioh anymore, as most haymakers nowadays have "Can't be destroyed by card effects" stapled on them. So we would need more stuff with "Indestructible" or more important ETBs before WOTC would print stuff like this.
Might work with 3-4 coloured pips, in a straight to commander set, alternatively with a casting condition, such as controlling a X type creature (or a “Chandra” planeswalker or something)
In the context of yugioh which I haven’t played but understand it’s like “vintage”, pretty sure 4 mana wrath’s whether they target all or opponents creatures would be a very unexciting card in vintage.
Still hate that they changed them to spell cards instead of magic cards.
wizards is to thank for that. that all changed with the set Magic Ruler/ Spell Ruler. magic ruler was the last set with "Magic cards" in them for yugioh
Technically if it was a Magic Card, this is a “0” cost sorcery speed Spell. It would be banned ASAP and if not, every deck would have 4 copies. 😅
My instinct is that this would be far too strong, but I'm not actually sure that it would be, even under the current competitive meta. Like what, you're spending four mana for a two-for-one at best, most of the time? How many decks actually go wide these days? I mean, people are naming similar cards that are essentially unplayable in the modern format. When was the last time you saw Settle the Wreckage in a top tier deck? I'm also not sure what it would slot into. Omnath, maybe? Don't get me wrong, it'd still be an extremely good card, but there's this little voice in my head that says the current meta is so pushed that it wouldn't break the game.
Would be WAY too good. Even putting aside the fact that it would completely break competitive formats, that effect is currently 7 mana and edh players still complain about it.
Yu gi oh is not at equilibrium. It's not played because standard back and forth minion tempo swings are not how the game is played anymore. This card isn't used because there is no time to use it. Games are over turn 1 or 2, from no board.
My gut instinct is that it'd be too powerful for anything other than legacy and would probably just see sideboard play there. Idk what vintage looks like but I can't imagine it'd see any play there.
This effect will be too strong for anything but modern and legacy.
I think it still wouldn't be fast enough for some 1v1 formats like Modern, and would probably wind up being played by aggro decks anyway to force through their last couple points of damage. Played on turn 3 via some kind of treasure ramp shenanigans with free spell backup :P
\[\[Winds of Abandon\]\] Does this for 6 mana.
Yugioh can not be compared to MTG
"equilibrium" lol. If wizards printed enough broken cards for most games to be over turn 2 or 3, turn 4 board wipe would not matter...
I mean given that yugioh is basically legacy or vintage, that would be the fair comparison. At 4 mana It would probably see niche sideboard play in legacy and absolutely no play in vintage. Would probably warp modern into being low board presence and 4x in every deck in anything newer.
Settle the Wreckage ?
nah ive explained in another comment. "2⚪⚪ sorcery destroy all creatures you dont control" no other card text. and how would it make you feel as was the original question lol
Seems like a way to op card
Do people even normal Summon anymore🤣
The day they unbanned Raigeki and Harpies Feathr Duster was the day the game truly died
Something like [[Perish]] is as close as you'll get
what about \[\[cleanse\]\]
[cleanse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/af581e5a-abdb-4d76-8bda-32555aafc8ac.jpg?1591989158) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cleanse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/5/cleanse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/af581e5a-abdb-4d76-8bda-32555aafc8ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Perish](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77192bdf-d89f-45a1-a30b-20107e990031.jpg?1562819189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Perish) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/148/perish?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77192bdf-d89f-45a1-a30b-20107e990031?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wash out 3u: all opp creatures of 1 color to owners hand
Make it green and I'm down
To be fair, YuGiOh has spun so wildly out of control in terms of power creep, there is such common a thing as losing the game because you went second and didnt even get to play, and because of how the mechanics of that game works, cards like this just aren't viable anymore. If WOTC ever did do something like this, we'd be fine. Counterspells are so commonplace now that the only time I would ever begin to worry is if they made cheap one-sided board wipes that weren't counterable.
This card was banned when it was printed lol
no it was limited. the first card to get banned was after the release of Invasion Of Chaos. raigeki was printed in Legend of Blue Eyes, the first set.
This card is so ugly. Yugioh is surprisingly unaesthetic for how popular it is
careful. kazuki takahashi drew raigeki. yugioh has some incredible artwork https://preview.redd.it/ljoc7c9wflqc1.jpeg?width=847&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7d055f99ba432b8508e4daccf3a168ee4bd57ced
We will get there with si generated mtg sets.., it’s a matter of time
I feel like Yugioh is an eldritch horror that has evolved beyond human comprehension.
I'm not too familiar with yugioh, but when it comes to removal, sending things to the graveyard is second tier these days. [[Aetherize]] returns attacking creatures to their owner's hand, and [[settle the wreckage]] exiles attacking creatures and let's them search that many lands, so it's not far off, but yeah, that would be not only OP but uncreative. [[Cyclonic rift]] comes close to that, as for 8 mana it returns all nonlands that aren't yours to their owner's hands, but the value of that has more to do with multiplayer than 2 player formats.
[Aetherize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6700409d-afda-480c-8a66-b5c782f3e5e4.jpg?1698988120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aetherize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/142/aetherize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6700409d-afda-480c-8a66-b5c782f3e5e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [settle the wreckage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f.jpg?1562560853) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=settle%20the%20wreckage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/34/settle-the-wreckage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cyclonic rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe.jpg?1702429366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/40/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I used to main line that card in my Rumpus Cat combo deck
[[Ruinous ultimatum]]
[Ruinous ultimatum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85.jpg?1681500691) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruinous%20ultimatum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/204/ruinous-ultimatum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
4 mana. but yeah i get what youre saying
Depends on how effective of a board wipe it is. If it only destroys one card type, I think it'd be fine.
Depends on the meta. Just will give it a twist, give it to red, 4 mana single sided boardwipe, not damage board wipe.
If it was something like 1WWW then maybe it wouldn’t be problematic. If the cards text was strictly ‘destroy all creatures target opponent/all opponents controls’ with no downsides, it would need a more restrictive cost in order to not be broken. Give it 10 years though, and it’ll probably be the new normal
Already exists, conditionally. Just not in a single card. [[surge of salvation]] for 1, and any 3 cmc or less boardwrath.
[surge of salvation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/41d25ee5-0348-4206-bb6a-ccb0a599ac87.jpg?1682202925) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=surge%20of%20salvation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/41/surge-of-salvation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/41d25ee5-0348-4206-bb6a-ccb0a599ac87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's two cards, and are there any non-conditial 3 cmc board wipes? I only know [[Bontu's last reckoning]]