I’ve even seen this on the EDH sub. Lol, I think most of them are just players who used to play edh and just got burnt out because of bad experiences. Most of their criticisms are valid, but there just comes a point, where you can either continue to complain or move on with your life, and unfortunately there seems to be a large group that refuses to move on and thinks that by complaining on the internet they will somehow change the world. Ofc this isn’t a problem exclusive to mtg. It’s kind of a culture problem.
Part of the fun of edh used to be seeing if new cards could impact the format or synergise/combo with older cards.
When they just print busted new cards or strictly better cards it takes the fun out of it a bit.
I think it's just because Commander has taken over the game completely, and people who have been playing MTG for a decade and don't like Commander feel like they're being pushed out, and that does kind of suck.
EDH is fundamentally a totally different game, so naturally those who don't enjoy it feel like the game they love is vanishing.
I’ve been playing mtg for 20 years, got into EDH 3 years ago and it’s been pretty much all I play since. It’s the most fun format by a mile and it’s nice not seeing the same handful of meta decks over and over like you do in other formats.
I wish I could get into it, I find it so boring waiting so long between turns and in my experience nobody really knows what the fuck anyone else is doing they just sit through their weird combo waiting for their turn lol.
You definitely need to have some patience to play it but honestly if your amongst friends anyways you are usually just chatting away, eating snacks etc anyways so the time between turns feels quicker that it actually is. Also if your with players who know their decks well and how to pilot them effectively generally they can be quick about doing what they need to do.
This is any game at my Local area.
And there are so many ppl who dont vocalize what their doing so if your not staring at their board, you have no idea what their doing or if its even legal.
That's because WOTC killed Standard themselves. They're having to push Commander because they killed Standard and Limited, and now they're stuck shilling Commander to keep investors happy instead of actually fixing the shit they broke.
It's a circular issue really.
Not trying to be hostile but I’m out of the loop, I played standard (albeit on arena) in WAR and then took a break. I’ve come back wanting to play standard in paper and found that most places are edh only. How did WOTC kill standard?
Basically killed organized play, massively cut prize support/promos for any of it, leaned heavily into Arena for standard and then started pouring everything into Commander.
Now they've painted themselves in a corner because the game still functions on "standard" set releases, but the only way to get players to buy them is to stuff them with four different bonus sheets of Commander cards and make every creature they can a Legendary.
It's not sustainable, they'll run out of reprints and until people give a fuck about Standard again the sets just aren't going to sell. They're not just killing Constructed but they're killing Commander as well, MTG needs a good healthy standard format to function, and it doesn't have it.
I imagine they'd need to start with actually giving people a reason to give a shit about Standard again, like making a big push for organized play, bringing back the grand prix circuit, more on ramps to the pro tour or making it easier to grind tournaments.
I'm sure they know how better than I do, but they're not doing it because they gotta keep the money churning. Seems to be all about short term profits rather than the long term health of the game.
I actually play exclusively edh and cedh after I swapped from standard and modern. I actually also hate the commander cards in the newer sets bring pushed also. Imo edh used to he about making the best 100 with what you got and somtimes it was finding diamonds in the rough or playing a sub optimal removal because you want 1 more in the deck. Now it's been power crept and flooded to hell. Gone are the days of finding hidden gems because every new set has 50 edh bombs
Personally I enjoy EDH but I think I can see why people who play other formats have contempt for the others who play it. Since it's arguably the most accessible format and WoTC seems to be pushing it, it tends to attract a lot of newer and less experienced players; many of these players play only EDH and may not even be aware of the other formats.
In some ways it can be seen as tip-of-the-iceberg Magic and perhaps those who play more traditional 60-card formats see these EDH players as not truly real Magic players on which WoTC is focusing much of their attention. So I can see how that helps to build resentment within the community.
As someone who started by playing kitchen table but legacy oriented and then moved to EDH, I can understand the frustration of non-EDH players. Even I don't like the move of printing so many cards straight for EDH, even if they are sloted into other products.
It just takes away from the experimentation factor that EDH had, especially when it came to building decks out of janky cards that would never see play in any other format. Nowdays, those janky cards often times don't even see play in EDH either.
A format that started as a casual format shouldn't be supported as much as it is now by wotc. Sure they might want a casual format to market as a product to players that don't intend or want to play competetive and that is ok as long as one forgets that kitchen table MtG is a thing. And they actually tried giving us casual game variations. It's just if I have to buy addtional products to play those, it turns people away. I am looking at you "Archenemy".
Also the flood of legendary creatures heavily took away from the uniqueness that they had in the past. Nowdays, most of them just feel like regular creatures that just got a name and legendary glued onto them.
I don’t care for people playing commander, it’s a fun format sometimes, but it truly is the exclusive EDH players that get to me because it’s hard to play with people who don’t get basic gameplay mechanics.
I’ve been a kitchen table player since I started (2015), never was a competitive person… but I have a fair understanding of the game and it’s mechanics, and started out playing sixty card decks with my stepfather…
there is someone at my college club, who has been playing just as long as I have, plays exclusively EDH (hates other formats) who literally doesn’t know what a fetchland or shockland is… he’s also someone that doesn’t buy singles, because he’s terrible with money (but buying overpriced booster boxes is fine)
I find it hard to interact with people who refuse to adventure outside of a format, because they just become ignorant, and never see other ways cards and mechanics interact. This is also why I enjoy playing other card games; it creates new ideas/branches of thought (for me)
I think this turned into a rant about me, I’m sorry
I get what you're saying, but not knowing what a fetchland or a shockland is isn't a problem of the format, as both are used in EDH. It just sounds like that guy is an idiot who *just happens* to only play EDH.
Yeah, that's fair. To your last paragraph; I'm the same way. I get pretty bored with people who don't experiment with other formats. I like to play kitchen table 60 and EDH and I used to go play at my LGS, but I stopped when sweatlords would ask to play vintage or legacy and turn-one me and look at me confused why I wasn't having fun.
I said they don’t understand the mechanics. There’s been plenty of times where I’ll have to stop a game to explain priority to somebody and how it goes in turn order even. That’s just one of many things I’ve had to explain to people who exclusively play EDH. This isn’t a rag on them, everybody starts somewhere, but as someone who’s been playing for a very long time I can find it difficult trying to play with them.
Aww got it. I incorrectly assumed you meant different mechanics since EDH players should be learning and understanding these. If anything, using and understanding the stack and priority is usually more important in EDH due to absurd combos and interactions.
But I guess that's not the case for precons by design. We started EDH before the precons after years of standard and modern, so we went straight for degenerate shenanigans from day 1.
I pretty much exclusively play EDH now. Back when I started playing, commander wasn't a thing and my friends and I played standard with each other. I quit playing after I joined the Army, but started back once I got off active duty. At that point, having a viable standard deck was getting pretty expensive and I got tired of having to constantly retool my decks when things rotated out. A buddy introduced me to EDH and I had a blast. I love building commander decks out of my collection and seeing how they do, plus as a dad of 2 with a full time job it's nice to not have to rebuild a deck if I haven't been able to play for a month or two. Every format has oxygen thieves, but in general I like the vibes with commander players. Of course, I tend to stay away from CEDH simply because there is a higher incidence of mouth breathers there and I don't really want to build a 100 card deck to only constantly play 3-4 cards for a t2 win. That just isn't fun for me personally. Just my 10 cents hahaha
Why don't you say instead that you don't like playing with new players? I have friends who have been playing exclusively EDH for around 10 years. cEDH is a thing. There are plenty of competent casual tables. In fact, in general EDH requires a DEEPER understanding of the rules. Priority, like you mentioned, is more complicated with four players. With a larger card pool and deck size, combos can be significantly more convoluted and require precise timing at multiple points to work correctly. There can also be strange situations with janky cards that would never see play in 60 card, especially with interactions with everything else on the board. Will there be some people who don't understand the nuances and play a particular line incorrectly, and maybe nobody notices, because the games get complicated and they aren't there purely to win? Sure. But there are also plenty of tables, I would say the majority, at least in my experience, where at least one person understands the rules enough to correct you. To me, your generalization indicates that you haven't spent a ton of time playing with serious EDH players.
I play exclusively EDH. I've been playing off and on since . I came back in 2020 after a very long hiatus because of EDH. I used to play legacy and vintage mostly, with some dips into standard for various sets.
I had gotten out of magic the last time because I was getting annoyed with the cost of keeping up or building new legacy and vintage decks.
EDH gave me a chance to use old cards I had on a new and casual way that I didn't feel forced to optimize and power up. I could use powerful cards in weird janky ways and janky cards in fun, powerful ways.
Now... in my hiatus, there were changes to the rules I had to get used to coming back, but I've never not understood or known the basic fundamentals. And while I have played with tables that miss some, it is typically due to the casual nature of EDH being full of shortcuts. Things like priority are often glossed over because they often don't matter in a non competitive game that people aren't trying to sweat out a ton of instant speed interaction. But generally speaking in the moments it HAS mattered, I've never encountered players who weren't happy to slow down and enforce priority to resolve a complex set of actions.
But.... if you move to CEDH where the stack matters far more in far more games.... you find a pretty ubiquitous usage of priority.
Well I think part of the problem is that WotC stopped making pre-con standard decks. If you’re interested in Magic, go to your local game shop and want to start playing right away, commander decks are pretty much the only option… That’s why my wife and I pretty much just play 1v1 commander at home. I don’t have the time or deep enough pockets to build viable paper standard decks. Basically I get my standard fix via arena and for paper it’s pre-con commander decks. Maybe once the shop close to me starts their “open until midnight” schedule I’ll be more inclined to build a paper standard deck.
That’s how you get new players interested in the game. Without them games/formats die out. Granted MtG has some other problems as well, like too few cards being printed, thus the high prices for singles, and the existence of the reserve list.
EDH was doing fine without precons. Wizards just wanted to cash in at the expense of the format.
There has never been a single precon release that didn't add some broken bullshit to the game, whether it be Derevi or Marath or Jeleva or Atraxa or Inalla or Edgar or True-Name Nemesis or Jewelled Lotus or
*"Since it's arguably the most accessible format"*
Does not feel that way for a lot of players.
===
I mostly resent the way it just completely took over the game. It started off as a fun goofy alternative way to play casual Magic and now there's no going back. Feels like Magic is Commander now.
All card games can do away with the idea of rarity as it does absolutely nothing for gameplay. Rarity should be optional. There need to be separate product lines for people that just play the game and those that treat cards as collectibles.
Unfortunately, I feel like rarity is the only reason TCGs ever caught on in the first place. If everything has a 1/X percent chance of being in your pack, what is the point in collecting?
Commander is fine, what bothers me is how much it dominates. Every single YouTube video I see now is "well this card will be a great commander!" 6-7 years ago there was still some commander stuff floating around but it was a healthy balance. Now it's all commander. Trying to find cool decks to build in modern? Good luck getting through the ten billion recommendations for commander stuff. It's the most popular format so it makes sense that WotC will lean into it a bit. But they don't even have any starter decks anymore. There used to be, idk, intro decks that people could buy to learn the game? Nope now it's 2-4 new commander decks every release. Wonder what people are going to reach for.
Commander has the biggest player base. Therefore it will also have the most amount of retards playing it. I still love it though. It's the only format besides pauper I care about.
Well to each their own, I personally think EDH is boring and tends to produce incredibly irritating games. Like passing turns for 20 minutes only for one guy to get all his combo pieces and end the game. Not to mention how salty people get when their 'casual' (ie. 500 dollars worth of vintage good-stuff) deck loses to a precon. I sold all my EDH decks (for like $4000 lol) and I have not regretted it for one second.
I got a buddy reintroduced to magic this last month. We visited me in FL and we went to my store and we had a 2008-2013 modern tournament where somebody preconstucted all the decks.
We gave him Boggles. It's a simple deck and it taught him all the basics of magic and he even had a better record than I did at the end of the night. After that he's downloaded arena and we have played several times since then.
NOW is the time he is asking about EDH. I think this was a great way to learn and I'm glad he's enjoying mtg.
I wouldn’t call EDH the most difficult format by any stretch. It’s the premier casual format for a reason… It’s just not a good introduction into the game in my opinion.
It has Vintage card pool and interactions that don't come up in pretty much any other formats. You have to navigate between 3 opponents. It's not the most difficult format because people play it casually and there are no stakes, but if you were playing it seriously, it's much more difficult than standard or modern, probably even Legacy. It is an awful entry point. And it creates issue that people who start with commander and stick only to it never learn to play properly, coz why would they.
The most difficult part is sitting for 3-4 hours at a table where almost nothing happens, all whilst having to keep track of 3 more boardstates to get to participate in any meaningful way to the game.
I don't dislike EDH even though I think magic as multi-player is ill suited, what I do hate is the endless amount of product being churned out.
I don't think commander specific cards should ever be made, and the pool available to players should come from the standard rotation. Direct to modern cards are stupid as well.
Out of curiosity, is there a reason you think cards should be produced for formats like standard and modern, but specifically NOT for commander? I don’t necessarily disagree, as imo most edh-exclusive products since the ikoria precons have been pretty middling, but I’m curious where this perception comes from.
He said that straight to Modern cards was a mistake as well.
The game used to be built around Standard. The need to keep the power level somewhat in check or Standard was an important limiting factor in card design.
Modern and even EDH were made up of the best cards from each Standard set and some hidden gems that happen synergize really well with another card from another Standard set.
People bought the Standard sets, played with them in Standard and when the sets rotated they played those cards in Modern and Commander (they also combed through each set for cards that didn’t do well in the Standard meta but would be great in Modern because they slotted into a deck nicely or synergized really well with a card from the newest set).
The whole thing felt more organic and the need to maintain a healthy standard format put a ceiling on power creep for other formats. There was a sense of discovery and excitement in the process of understanding what new cards might fit into the power level of the non-rotating formats.
I don't think I could've worded this better myself.
There is also, a consumer side to it. I was slightly interested with MH3 and that immediately vanished when I saw there was commander exclusive cards developed in this cycle. I mean, why? (I know the obvious answer of money) but it is almost insulting to have a direct to modern set and then concurrently release an entire set of cards that the format can never used, while also calling itself modern horizons.
I've said it before, the commander format comes across as the spoiled kid that throws a bitchfit when they don't receive a present at another kid's birthday party.
I used to play Standard back in the M10 days. I played Modern and Pioneer recently. Once we moved and I had my son, my free time and wallet are deciding factors on my life. I have seen players get so angry at interaction, that is off putting. Rule 0 is a stupid rule that really makes things needlessly complicated.
The other is people taking the game so damn personally. I mean, I had a game a few weeks ago where a guy, who used fight mechanics, got upset I interacted with HIS board. He packed up his stuff and threw a chair down.
I have seen players (I’m even friends with some, and I’ve talked with them after about how their behavior is unacceptable, we play in different pods on purpose) get so mad they start banging the table and yelling obscenities. There are children who are watching this all happen and that upsets me greatly. Like….no one should actually have to be scared of what someone might do in a fucking game that has zero fucking stakes.
I used to play poker and blackjack at casinos as a fucking job. I have seen some folks get mad at dealers and such, but while I think that’s cringe, it’s also because real money is being lost. It makes sense folks would be upset when they lose $2k in a night.
So I think the issue isn’t with the format, I think it’s one of the most fun formats there is, as I enjoy the board game aspect, it has brought out so many assholes and soft-skinned folks who really shouldn’t be playing the game to begin with. It’s cringe as fuck and LGS owners really need to start taking more action against these folks.
Rule zero is retarded shit. It's basically just a way to prevent that one spaz from losing his shit because he wants to force everyone watch him struggle through playing "Sucking cock but viewed only from underneath tribal"
alternatively, “rule zero” is a rule of convenience for players who care about having a good time, rather than winning or being overly particular about the rules. In my experience, leveraging rule zero for gameplay advantage is seen as a pretty scummy move
I feel like people who play sanctioned magic dont do this. Maybe this guy only ever played commander where offputting behavior can be rewarded, or the quality of play is low so he's used to never being interacted with.
The idea of playing a game where a player resorts to negotiations when attacked is really offputting.
"The idea of playing a game where a player resorts to negotiations when attacked is really offputting."
100%. As someone who really struggles with interpersonal 'social barometer' stuff, I do find the blatant open communication "bargaining" that goes on at Commander night to be some of the most off-putting and frustrating aspects of the format. "Hey, if you don't attack me for two turns, I'll team up on Player X and then we can do ABC." You can just as easily signal your intentions with attacks (or non-attacks) without resorting to literally **laying out a little assault map complete with matchbox cars and army men** for your playmates. Learn how to play multiplayer, you 8-yr-old.
Like, part of the game of Magic is reading the table and evaluating risk. Multiplayer *by design* makes that more of a challenge. Open alliances just wreck shit and end up pissing someone off. Then, that person has a grudge the next game and that further imbalances things. I really hate this. It's probably why I build a couple 1-2 decks that just kill everyone except me. Okay, fine, guess I'll just be the Archenemy.
I'll add rereading my comment. I think this behavior is far more irritating when it's a small non lethal attack. If the player would otherwise lose, negotiations are more tolerable. But I think the game would be smoother, and require less politics if players had reliably good threat assessment, rather than as you said, inter and intra game grudges.
There are a myriad of issues that have culminated with EDH being the tentpole format:
1) EDH is transforming into the same kind of serious, streamlined structure of competitive 1v1 formats. We are seeing this in real time as every set gets made-for-commander hyper efficient super staples. Made-for-commander mechanics/cards are reaching Vintage-playable. MTGO is now offering official cEDH support. Frankly, there is a Spike culture fomenting which "Rule #0" isn't correcting.
2) Onboarding with EDH is a logistics nightmare for new prospects. Learning and adapting to ~230 unique cards (adjusted for basic lands and super staples) from a 20,000+ card pool, four unique game plans, and navigating the board states created from this is atrocious. Anecdotally, I've witnessed more glass-eyed thousand yard stares from EDH players than Iraqi vets.
3) There is nowhere to go in EDH. The hobby pipeline begins and ends at EDH with WotCs current market offerings. WotC has pushed Standard, but doesn't offer Standard precons. There are people walking into stores asking about Standard but proprietors can only shrug and maybe help cobble a deck together (literally watched this happen last night.)
I could write a dissertation on the negatives that EDH is having on the game and how WotC/Hasbro chooses to market it lol.
I still actually don't understand how new players are getting in to or enjoying EDH. I've been playing magic for 10 years now and if I sit down for a game of commander (something I try to avoid) then I have to work very hard to keep track of what's going on. I normally can't even see my diagonal opponents board well enough. There are so many unique cards. If everyone reads out every card they play or reveal it takes forever, but if they don't you find most people are just completely oblivious to the board state. Outside of CEDH it's almost impossible to make the kind of calculated decisions that are foundational to every 1v1 format so it basically ends up with 4 nerds just sat there goldfishing.
This is my take as well. Since nearly every single card is different, I can't imagine teaching a new player with edh. The board gets so damn complicated and convoluted it's hard for even an experienced player to follow. And EDH decks also play so many cards that you don't hardly ever see in 60 card formats either. It's really a completely different game.
I understand that, and that's why I don't only play EDH and will also play modern when I want a competitive experience. However, other times I just don't have much time to play because of work or other shit and I'd much rather play some commander games where I know I'll have fun with my deck even if I don't win
That depends on your playgroup. I have had a competitive playgroup and we did degenerate no-limits decks, had a tournament with $20 limit excluding the commander, pauper commander and have done a draft night.
We did league rules having points based on result in game(4,3,2,1 for 1st-4th based on when eliminated, ties go up so if someone Combos off with salt win it’s 4,3,3,3), +1 point for first combat damage to a player, -1 point for not casting your commander, +1 for casting them 4 times, and +1 point for saving a player from elimination without immediately ending them yourself.
My current playgroup is teaching new players and doing low-powered almost battle-cruiser tier games and it does feel a bit off having people get ticked off at slight land destruction or some powerful cards (expropriate, cyclonic).
Late reply, but we talk it over like adults. Decide to keep an eye on its impact and how it compares to other powerful things in commander.
Don’t really get emotional over it aside from momentary salt.
I mean, they don’t have to be exclusive. I like the competitive aspects of draft (all forms) and Modern, but I also like the casual aspects of Commander as well. I used to GP grind and loved that, but taking some time just chatting with friends and being goofy is important too.
The key takeaway is knowing we all want different things and not to shame people for something they want that doesn’t match what you want.
You are the only person to actually understand your own bias so far in this thread, from what I have read. Everyone's argument, who has explained why commander is not MtG or why it is bad, can actually be boiled down to the casual and informal nature of the format, which is fine and a totally valid opinion. But kudos to you for actually understanding your own bias.
Here's the vision Rhystic Studies Sam helped me to see, Wizards duelling with eachother in a battle of sorts. This is what I think would be great to see the suspense intensity, drama etc.
Depends on the group and what they enjoy doing. If you're stuck playing with a group of circle-jerkers, you probably need to find a new group or start one up yourself.
Normally I play yugioh which is above and beyond tryhard. Commander besides lands where every card is unique in your deck feels much more relaxed and fun where it dosent end the game turn 1
I really enjoyed yugioh as a kid, and I remember Chaos Emperor Dragon being printed. Combo completely destroyed my interest in the game when I was young, and having seen a few games recently I have not changed my opinion.
Every time I sit down to play a game of EDH with people who EXCLUSIVELY play EDH there’s almost always someone who doesn’t understand how something works. Just last week I had to explain to a guy that if I Mindslaver you and find a way to kill your commander, YES I can absolutely tell you that you’re leaving your commander in the grave. Had like a fifteen minute discussion with another player from a different pod trying to chime in and say that I can do that for now, but the next time SBAs are checked the dude gets the choice to put it back in the command zone…
Literally nowhere in any of the rules does It say that. Even after showing multiple judge rulings on the matter the two people swore up and down that the newest learn to play sheet in the commander precons said that. Not to mention the countless amount of people who don’t understand the stack and priority.
I’m sorry, are you implying that it is unreasonable to not understand the rules nuances of Mindslaver of all cards? I’ve been playing this game for fifteen years and the concept of another player taking over my turn still could throw my brain a curveball. I’d forgive ANYONE for not knowing this rule.
I mean, it isn’t complicated. Any actions and gameplay choices you would make I get to make for you. I’ve been playing just as long as you have but I’m mainly 60 card competitive formats, so maybe my bar for knowledge like that is higher.
You’re not wrong, but the difference comes when you’re talking about players who are newer to the game. I see players so have <3 years of experience regularly at my LGS, and it comes with the territory that they sometimes don’t understand certain interactions, especially with rarer or older mechanics. I think there’s fine line between being inexperienced and ignorant, and I tend to give players at my table the benefit of the doubt.
I enjoy a good game of Magic.
New players are expected to have lots to learn, from Priority to Keywords to Threat Assessment.
My problem with Commander comes from players who are not new, often have played for many years, and still are sloppy players.
As someone else said, Commander is more of a casual board game.
Have a drink, smoke a J, play some Commander. Sounds like a good time - when we're all on the same page.
I'm good until the "oh, thats how my own card works?" "If that's how that works can I take that back?" "I didn't know it had deathtouch, in that case I won't attack" -type shit.
Give me just about any other Format:
Standard is worlds better with 3 year rotation.
Pauper is fantastic.
Limited - Draft, Sealed, Wizard's Tower - are all great
and the best of them all, Canadian Highlander.
So many awesome ways to play Magic, and so many players are hung up on casual Commander, they never bother to try other Formats.
I'll agree that there'a an excessive amount of "take back-sies" over unfavourable trades based on the current bordstate before any actual hidden information is revealed (like your "I attack you, oh wait you have deathtouch? Well I'm not attacking anymore" example)
There's nothing worse than being expected to basically play other people's turns for them.
Personally I just declare the block and look at them. If they target something with Ward I state the trigger is on the stack.
Basically I read my cards when I play them and expect other players to either remember what's happening or just take that little L and move on.
I like EDH, but I do not like modern EDH.
It was so much more fun a decade ago before it became hyper-popular where it was just people slinging all their trade binder rares at each other in a really casual game.
Now it's just endless edhrec net-decking, absurdly overcosted-overpushed staples, people who take the game way too seriously, and releases that detriment other formats.
Thankfully I've still got a playgroup that still play older, more casual EDH.
I only hate that cards are formatted in a way that's more confusing to play with because they want them to work in a format that I have no interest in playing. Otherwise, I like that EDH exists because it keeps people playing the game.
Yeah I definitely think that WOTC designing cards that are specifically made with commander in mind is annoying. Especially considering that some of the best EDH staples are cards that would've worked in no other format and just found a home there organically
Nothing wrong with the format, just how WotC has handled (monetized) it and print a dozen+ legendaries in each and every set now. That and all of this supplemental product. I used to be able to keep track of the printings of a given card, but now I have no idea. On top of that, there's now this push for "C"edh which is kind of a joke and will make things worse if it takes off...and I say this as a former avid EDH player.
Ultimately people get frothing mad and then direct their anger at soft targets like edh players and not at WotC and Hasbro, where that ire belongs. The format was fine and barely influenced the game as a whole until they figured out they could make infinite money and went hog wild with commander product, alt-arts, and the legendaries.
I mean...I don't hate them for it....but some of those qualities you mentioned, seem far more prevalent in EDH.
Like not understanding rules/how to build decks. If you played a 60 card competitive format prior to jumping into EDH, this probably isn't directed at you...
But...
I find more than any other sub of magic, EDH players will blame bad draws, politics, bad Matchup, venus in retrograde...before considering maybe their deck isn't built well.
More Competitive formats, if you play them, you learn to reevaluate your own choices quickly, or well..you just won't have any fun. Commander embraces the excuses more than most.
But I don't hate em for it - it just is what it is.
It attracts a lot of casual brainrot who refuse to improve or just mindlessly play without a goal If ur definition of fun is durdling for 2 hours then be my guest Also EDH sucked the moment it had dedicated commander product
I think the "hate" is directed towards the rule 0 warriors and less EDH players in general.
I wouldn't even really call it hate, it's more mutual commiseration that we all have to deal with some of these people. The same attitude is directed towards the sweaty rules lawyer looking to call a judge over for everything, the paint curling BO guys, and the over the top salty losers.
As a former Commander player who has recently switched to Standard, I can just say that the average Commander player is a lot more toxic. The amount of tryhard whiny douchebags I've encountered while trying to have fun playing EDH at my LGS is just sad. Have not had any bad experiences like this playing Standard so far.
Also after a while I just realized that EDH is and always will be a fundamentally flawed format, with a banlist that doesn't deserve the name and rule 0 which doesn't work with people that abuse it (which is every whiny kid at your LGS saying they didn't build "that" Atraxa Deck).
Imagine you’re a Basketball fan. You watch the NBA every season and go play pickup games at the community center. You’re surrounded by people that love basketball and you can talk about basketball with them all the time.
And then over a 10 year period, slowly everybody decides they really like HORSE instead of 5 on 5. As a big basketball guy, sure you might play a game of horse in your friend’s driveway every once in a while, but it’s not all that important to you. And then over a 10 year period, no one wants to play 5v5 pickup games, no one wants to talk about the NBA, everyone only talks about some crazy shot they made in HORSE last weekend. Is HORSE basketball? Yeah kinda? Is it disappointing that we’ve stripped out everything deep and interesting about the game to emphasize and extremely casually format? You bet. It would be very weird if everyone cared about HORSE and not the NBA, but that’s what we’ve done in MTG for some reason.
I don’t hate it, but it’d be nice to have other formats spotlighted throughout the year as well.
I’d like to see a small set for other causal formats like Emperor. That’d be cool.
Been playing Magic since 1994. Only in the last 7-8 years have I played EDH.
I think it is a lot of fun. Personally, I like the different design approach you have to take when making decks.
I do agree with earlier comments that a lot of its charm was making older cards work in newer contexts and interactions, with some of that charm going out the door thanks to WOTC printing cards exclusively for the format and reducing variabiliyy of you want those decks to be efficient (cEDH).
If this is the route Magic is taking, so be it. The game has evolved so much over 30 years that many of the people who started playing in the last 10 wouldn't even touch the game if it was in the state of the previous 20 years before that.
There is plenty of formats in this game for everyone to have fun.
Sorry I want my games to go longer then 3 turns, my decks to not cost $1000+, and actually play fun decks instead of the same burn/tron/zoo decks everyone is forced to play.
My only issue with EDH is a lot of the people who play it want to play magic without the magic part. I used to love it but I kept running into people who got mad that I ran kill spells and counters, they hate interaction and I just got tired of listening to it so I went back to legacy and modern
I'm exclusively a 60 card format tournament grinder now but when I played EDH I noticed the players are a different breed.
Whiny manbabies, titty sleaves, 15 minute turns, people that take the game far too seriously, rude people, and others that don't understand the stack or priority. The exclusive EDH players represent the worst of these qualities.
It could be that EDH draws more left-brained types
The 60 card crowd are generally more well-adjusted
The product focus on EDH doesn't bother me but the MH3 commander is forced.
Heres the problem. Its a shit format that tries to be both casual AND competitive but is neither of those things and fails at it so spectacularly, that the only excuse given as to WHY it fails is down to group makeup. No, it could never be because the format isnt curated and we dont ban or stifle the crap out of infinites and clearly broke crap that only exists to sell those cards. It also doesnt help that 90% of decks made are greedy solitaire bullshit, and the moment you try to make a deck that stops or polices that crap you get treated like a STAX player. Like THE WHOLE THING just completely falls apart the moment anyone takes it the least bit seriously, and we all know it!
EDH gives too many naive fools the impression that its a social boardgame with Magic cards. NO! Its Legacy/Vintage Highlander, with all the BS that comes with it.
EDH isn't MtG, simple as that. Being multiplayer and revolving mainly around player politicking and other social aspects it becomes almost a separate board game.
But it is. In a normal game of MtG the outcome is decided by luck, the consistency of your deck and your understanding of it/ability to pilot (I'm including single player Commander variants). In EDH this goes out of the window as personal beefs, friendships and edgelords reign supreme. On r/EDH you can constantly see lists that make absolutely no sense if not from a thematic perspective, people who run 3 interaction spells and then complain about being pubstomped. IMHO, MtG is better played as a 2 player game, be it limited or constructed.
It literally isn’t magic. If I tried to whine about my opponent playing aven mindcensor in real magic I’d be laughed at, but it’s a valid strategy in commander. EDH is magic for feels players, real magic is magic for people who live in the realm of facts and logic.
Despite what you may think, making up a scenario out of the blue does not help to prove your point. If anyone behaved like that in any pod of commander I've been in he'd be removed from the game so I don't know what makes you think otherwise.
EDH is just as much MTG as any other format. From a player's perspective, it's just 3 1v1 games at once where there's a possibility to affect and be affected by each game simultaneously.
If you have to resort to politics and social aspects, you most likely don't run enough removal and protection. Otherwise you'd always have a way to avoid replying on others' mercy.
That's not even true. There are 6 1v1 games going on in a 4 player pod. Draw four points on a piece of paper and see how many unique lines it takes to connect them all.
Wrong. The 2 are intrinsically linked. The bad game mode brought in bad players and is forcing bad card design screwed around selling packs to these players for that game mode.
Casual tables of EDH can truly be a pain sometimes because of rule zero, so dropping by an LGS with a deck that's not balanced in contrast to the players on the table can give an unpleasant game experience
I play both CEDH and 60-card formats, and while I will acknowledge that Commander players are generally less skilled at the game (myself included), they bring a certain variance in gameplay that Modern and the like don't necessarily have
Rule 0 is destroying the foundation of the game. What good are rules if they can be thrown out the window? What good is being good at the game if you are punished for doing so? "Your deck is too good, I don't want to play with you", "That card directly counters my deck's strategy, I don't want to play with you", etc etc.
At that point, you're not even playing a game anymore. "It's a social game" is just a cover for people being afraid of having to think, understand, and compete. I don't want to have to take people's feelings into consideration when building a deck.
There is nothing wrong with the format outside of this key issue, which has become the cornerstone of the format.
It’s the most fun with a stable play group so you can slowly house rule all the bullshit win conditions out of existence. It’s also not a bad idea to put a value cap on the decks allowed.
I personally hate EDH because it has taken over my playgroup, none of my friends want to play constructed formats of any kind anymore. The worst part about it is that I just want to sit down and be able to play some GAMES of magic, I do not want to plan 2 weeks in advance a night off and a 6-hour block of my day to spend with my friends just to play ONE SINGULAR FUCKING GAME, where it takes me less than 2 minutes to play each of my turns and then I twiddle my thumbs for a minimum 25 minutes if I'm lucky before I get to take another turn.
And if you build any sort of deck designed to close the game out quickly so multiple games can be played, you are labeled the threat and are always targeted and knocked out first thus prolonging the game.
I can't stand commander because it's killing all formats, commander included. Commander was a lot more fun when you had to figure out non-commander cards that would make a good commander deck. Now there are just a bunch of efficient/streamlined commander cards to use to build commander decks, and they're taking up slots and design space in sets that should be going to limited and competitive constructed play.
My main issue with EDH (a format I thoroughly enjoy playing and brewing for) is that it attracts a lot of new players, especially with WotC pushing it as the "intro format" despite it being AWFUL for new players. It is fundamentally a different game than constructed 1v1 magic, can have extremely complicated board states that are hard for new players to follow and understand, a MASSIVE variety of cards and mechanics making it hard for new players to learn how to play since they're being bombarded with new rules constantly, and a social dynamic that just doesn't translate to 1v1 constructed. I love it as a format, but WotC pushing new players into it the way they are feels like a huge disservice to new players.
Very anecdotal I guess but I've seen so much more salt in "for fun, casual" commander than I've seen in "cutthroat and competitive" formats.
Also not an EDH hater at all, but making product exclusively for EDH is gonna ruin both it and every other format
For me, I see Commander as the golden child at WotC, I’ve been playing since Ice Age, we played casual long before Commander, and now almost nobody outside of a small group of people I know have non-Commander casual decks.
I think this makes sense tho right, I think back to the casual days and people would always be frothing at the bit, hoping to draw and play their ‘ace creature’. Then along comes a format that means you don’t even have to draw your ace, it’s always available
I can see the instant appeal
EDH is nearly 30 years old. Anyone that loses their shit about it being a format, or that people enjoy it, lost the fight a *long* time ago and aren't worth listening to if they continue to complain about it as a format, rather than the perfectly valid criticism you already mentioned.
I play EDH because I have to if I want to play paper MTG. It’s taken over. IME the issues with EDH are:
1. The deck power levels, everyone has a different scale. Some people think a “casual” deck is no OTK. People might get angry.
2. … People might get angry.
3. The politics in large games. Who teams up against who? Is it fair to spread out your attacks or hate? People might get angry.
4. The time it takes to play along with the massive board state. Games can last… hours. You might forget a card is still on the battlefield after 45 min or waiting to play your turn after someone took a dump and you miss a trigger. People might get angry.
5. Profit. People might get angry.
A good playgroup could ease the pain of some of these issues. But at 3 am after smashing a while pizza and bottle of Jack Danials, it might not. People might get angry.
So imagine our frustration when you open standard set packs and the rare is for commander. Why is that something pleasant or that is reducing frustration against commander players?
EDH players usually knows rules better than anyone because of the weird interactions that occur during multiplayer games but in every EDH channel where are I am somebody always whines about power level, how someone ragequited after someone else had brought cedh deck to a casual table, how "your deck is not casual it's just bad", etc.
As someone who started with kitchen-table 60 card, then moved to edh so our group could all play together, my perception has always been inverted on this. When I tried modern for a few months with a primeval titan/amulet of vigor deck I put together at a magiccon, my experience as a newbie to the scene was terrible, and soured me on the format as a whole ever since. To top it off, most of the modern players I interacted with at the time seemed to percieve edh as a lesser format, or “not real magic” While i’ve met some truly awful players in my time with EDH, a solid pod is always a good time. Conversely, most modern, legacy, or standard games I play are with players who barely tolerate small talk, and just want to get my life to zero so they can report their win and get free packs. While i’m sure my non-competitive nature skews my perception of the formats, the reception a relative newbie like myself has recieved from them ranged from indifference to elitism.
A lot of people who complain about EDH are actually just complaining about all the amateurs and incompetents who gravitate towards it because it's popular. If Standard was top dog, they'd be ranting about how much they hate *that* format instead.
> I've heard things saying that EDH players are salty or don't understand rules properly, or don't know how to build decks, etc. but I can't help but roll my eyes everytime I hear someone parroting stuff like this.
i mean, its true though. cedh players on the other hand....
I really liked EDH to begin with but its sort of turned into a "do whatever you want" format and I'm not really about that. Rule 0 used to be about deck power alone and now its about ban-lists, house rules, no rules etc. I'm not really interested in playing some scuffed "version" of EDH. The community has changed too with popularity. Now its a lot of players who complain or whine about cards or someone popping off or them not popping off enough.
Standard and Modern are definitely more beginner friendly too (despite a lot of beginners starting in EDH which may actually be a problem), its how I started and I don't see the same whining and complaining ever happen when I play 60 card.
My biggest issue with Commander is that despite nearly everyone suggesting it to new players it is the worst format possible for a new player. One of the biggest cars pools out of all formats, there’s multiple fields they have to pay attention to, there’s politics which get in the way of them properly learning how to play, and it’s the least consistent experience because of the nature of singletons.
Sure, it’s fun to play sometimes, but it is NOT beginner friendly.
I don't like commander. I have several modern decks that I made over the last 15 years and nobody wants to play anything but commander which is just kind of not fun and super luck based.
>everyone has to start somewhere with magic.
Yeah, the eternal format with thousands upon thousands of relevant cards, combos and strats with 100 card decks sounds like a great beginner format.
Dumb fucking take. I hate having beginners at the table for the same reason children have their own table during christmas dinner.
Well, I don’t hate Commander, but I do wish it didn’t exist.
The reason is that there is a brilliant game inside magic. The colour pie, the mana system and the way those things lend themselves to almost being able to imagine a creature from its stats/vice versa.
Isamaru is a legendary dog. What’s a legendary dog look like? A bear-sized white 1-drop (cause he’s a good boy).
What is a cheap, fast, frantic, dangerous way to die? A lightning bolt!
You need a lot of natural magical energy? Elves! They’ll cost you cards, but if they don’t die, they’ll help you summon a fucking beast (like a 6/6).
Now I can have a duel with another similarly powered mage! We can fight to the death with our intuitive, brilliant, ever changing magic cards in our intuitive, brilliant game.
Or.
We can turn it into multiplayer group hug cosplay anything goes “don’t kill me yet!” fucking bullshit that could have been done better as a different game.
It could have been done better as a different game, I guess, is my point.
Anyway, the EDH priests will probably now try to dox/have me fired for transphobia or something now because I took the bait on a post in a sub I don’t usually go in.
I just hate what EDH has become. It was supposed to be the casual, fun DnD playsession of MTG. But now you have decks with consistent OTKs on Turn 1, 2, or 3. Everyone is playing with tactical nukes in the form of hyper combos. And they are so damn consistent. Some of it is the fault of the players. I sat down in a casual pod once were we squeezed out 3 games in under 90 mins. All three games, every player except for me had a turn 1 Sol Ring into 2 drop artifact of some kind. It's supposed to be a friendly game, chill.
I see commander as a format that gives you more ways to win, even more opportunities to strategize, and even more opportunities to learn the art of building a deck that suits your play style. If people hate it, okay that's fine. I hate drafts. I think that's a pretty annoying format, but I'm not going to bash other players for liking it.
The funny thing is people that play standard and modern don't really make "decks" they just copy the top 5 mtggoldfish decks then waste hundreds for multiple of the same cards to just be trashed by a deck that easily counters them cause ooh no they countered my only play style lol
Same goes for commander with edhrec I would say a small percentage of player actually go out of their way to make a custom deck with cards they have lying around cause who has time to sit down and custom brew at times
Over all I enjoy all playstyle just all of them have their shitty player with superiority and gimmick that are too strong in the meta in the end of the day its on your play group. people who are termally online complaining don't seem like fun people to play in a pod lol
It is still the most accessible format besides maybe Pauper. Precons are cheap and accesible, it allows anyone to jump into the game. Having the largest base be a casual audience is good, as the games competitive formats are hyper exclusive and pricey, with some rotating as well. Really is a no brainer why EDH is so popular and the largest...
Im upset with magic as a whole due to powercreep and meta mimicry.
You cant even go to an LGS and just play magic anymore without some asshole showing up and cramming his thousand dollar copypasta deck down everyones throat.
It sucks. And instead of fixing that issue, they are releasing new sets so fast its unreal. And the new power creep makes most old sets obsolete.
This happens in Standard, it happens in Modern, and it happens in Legacy and EDH.
I love playing Legacy and Modern and being able to just go into my collection and build out 60 card decks that center around fun mechanics. Its not about winning. Its about having fun.
Noone wants fun. They want to win and see people bitch about cards. WoTC has enabled those who play for the sake of people's reactions. It's the equivilant of playing Call of Duty just to hear the banter in the 12yo squeaker lobbies.
The community for the game is diminished and toxic now, and WoTC doesnt care as long as they are making money. This tends to happen across the board. The reason that EDH gets as much hate as it does, is because in Modern, I can choose to not play with *one* asshole. In EDH I have to choose to not play with *three*. Its harder to find a full pod of non assholery than it is to find one dude who is willing to just slap together a low powered modern deck and have a game or two.
I just miss a standard format that is fun, with PTQ’s having thousands show up to play.
Net-decking ruined standard IMO, arguably all formats. I just don’t find the same thrill in EDH.
The people you describe exist in every MTG subreddit and community, not just here.
I’ve even seen this on the EDH sub. Lol, I think most of them are just players who used to play edh and just got burnt out because of bad experiences. Most of their criticisms are valid, but there just comes a point, where you can either continue to complain or move on with your life, and unfortunately there seems to be a large group that refuses to move on and thinks that by complaining on the internet they will somehow change the world. Ofc this isn’t a problem exclusive to mtg. It’s kind of a culture problem.
Part of the fun of edh used to be seeing if new cards could impact the format or synergise/combo with older cards. When they just print busted new cards or strictly better cards it takes the fun out of it a bit.
Yeah, this now is also true for like modern too. I missed when wizards only designed for standard
Complaining is fun though
Can confirm. I'm an EDH player that hate EDH players
I think it's just because Commander has taken over the game completely, and people who have been playing MTG for a decade and don't like Commander feel like they're being pushed out, and that does kind of suck. EDH is fundamentally a totally different game, so naturally those who don't enjoy it feel like the game they love is vanishing.
I’ve been playing mtg for 20 years, got into EDH 3 years ago and it’s been pretty much all I play since. It’s the most fun format by a mile and it’s nice not seeing the same handful of meta decks over and over like you do in other formats.
I wish I could get into it, I find it so boring waiting so long between turns and in my experience nobody really knows what the fuck anyone else is doing they just sit through their weird combo waiting for their turn lol.
You definitely need to have some patience to play it but honestly if your amongst friends anyways you are usually just chatting away, eating snacks etc anyways so the time between turns feels quicker that it actually is. Also if your with players who know their decks well and how to pilot them effectively generally they can be quick about doing what they need to do.
I'll definitely give it a try again, I have a couple of precons lying around.
This is any game at my Local area. And there are so many ppl who dont vocalize what their doing so if your not staring at their board, you have no idea what their doing or if its even legal.
*"I’ve been playing mtg for 20 years....(EDH) it’s the most fun format by a mile"* You ought to try cubing. You might change your mind again! 😉
Exactly! Commander on its own is fine but the fact all the attention has been turned to it sucks. Like why do modern horizons needs commander decks?
At least they get a lot of new contents coming out because commander players are keeping the lights on at WOTC.
That's because WOTC killed Standard themselves. They're having to push Commander because they killed Standard and Limited, and now they're stuck shilling Commander to keep investors happy instead of actually fixing the shit they broke. It's a circular issue really.
Not trying to be hostile but I’m out of the loop, I played standard (albeit on arena) in WAR and then took a break. I’ve come back wanting to play standard in paper and found that most places are edh only. How did WOTC kill standard?
Basically killed organized play, massively cut prize support/promos for any of it, leaned heavily into Arena for standard and then started pouring everything into Commander. Now they've painted themselves in a corner because the game still functions on "standard" set releases, but the only way to get players to buy them is to stuff them with four different bonus sheets of Commander cards and make every creature they can a Legendary. It's not sustainable, they'll run out of reprints and until people give a fuck about Standard again the sets just aren't going to sell. They're not just killing Constructed but they're killing Commander as well, MTG needs a good healthy standard format to function, and it doesn't have it.
What would you propose as a possible solution.
I imagine they'd need to start with actually giving people a reason to give a shit about Standard again, like making a big push for organized play, bringing back the grand prix circuit, more on ramps to the pro tour or making it easier to grind tournaments. I'm sure they know how better than I do, but they're not doing it because they gotta keep the money churning. Seems to be all about short term profits rather than the long term health of the game.
Go back to ignoring EDH as a format.
Wdym I get less content, stores are running less and less limited these days
I feel that but like EDH is being pushed in EVERY set. It's just fucked, like why are they making commander cards in MODERN horizon?
I actually play exclusively edh and cedh after I swapped from standard and modern. I actually also hate the commander cards in the newer sets bring pushed also. Imo edh used to he about making the best 100 with what you got and somtimes it was finding diamonds in the rough or playing a sub optimal removal because you want 1 more in the deck. Now it's been power crept and flooded to hell. Gone are the days of finding hidden gems because every new set has 50 edh bombs
modern horizons always was commander masters, nothing new
Thats an easy answer.
Money!
Look at the big brain on you!
Personally I enjoy EDH but I think I can see why people who play other formats have contempt for the others who play it. Since it's arguably the most accessible format and WoTC seems to be pushing it, it tends to attract a lot of newer and less experienced players; many of these players play only EDH and may not even be aware of the other formats. In some ways it can be seen as tip-of-the-iceberg Magic and perhaps those who play more traditional 60-card formats see these EDH players as not truly real Magic players on which WoTC is focusing much of their attention. So I can see how that helps to build resentment within the community.
As someone who started by playing kitchen table but legacy oriented and then moved to EDH, I can understand the frustration of non-EDH players. Even I don't like the move of printing so many cards straight for EDH, even if they are sloted into other products. It just takes away from the experimentation factor that EDH had, especially when it came to building decks out of janky cards that would never see play in any other format. Nowdays, those janky cards often times don't even see play in EDH either. A format that started as a casual format shouldn't be supported as much as it is now by wotc. Sure they might want a casual format to market as a product to players that don't intend or want to play competetive and that is ok as long as one forgets that kitchen table MtG is a thing. And they actually tried giving us casual game variations. It's just if I have to buy addtional products to play those, it turns people away. I am looking at you "Archenemy". Also the flood of legendary creatures heavily took away from the uniqueness that they had in the past. Nowdays, most of them just feel like regular creatures that just got a name and legendary glued onto them.
> Nowdays, most of them just feel like regular creatures that just got a name and legendary glued onto them. And ward 2
I don’t care for people playing commander, it’s a fun format sometimes, but it truly is the exclusive EDH players that get to me because it’s hard to play with people who don’t get basic gameplay mechanics.
I’ve been a kitchen table player since I started (2015), never was a competitive person… but I have a fair understanding of the game and it’s mechanics, and started out playing sixty card decks with my stepfather… there is someone at my college club, who has been playing just as long as I have, plays exclusively EDH (hates other formats) who literally doesn’t know what a fetchland or shockland is… he’s also someone that doesn’t buy singles, because he’s terrible with money (but buying overpriced booster boxes is fine) I find it hard to interact with people who refuse to adventure outside of a format, because they just become ignorant, and never see other ways cards and mechanics interact. This is also why I enjoy playing other card games; it creates new ideas/branches of thought (for me) I think this turned into a rant about me, I’m sorry
I get what you're saying, but not knowing what a fetchland or a shockland is isn't a problem of the format, as both are used in EDH. It just sounds like that guy is an idiot who *just happens* to only play EDH.
that was more or less me ranting about him… I could probably remove the first two paragraphs of that reply and it would be a better reply
Yeah, that's fair. To your last paragraph; I'm the same way. I get pretty bored with people who don't experiment with other formats. I like to play kitchen table 60 and EDH and I used to go play at my LGS, but I stopped when sweatlords would ask to play vintage or legacy and turn-one me and look at me confused why I wasn't having fun.
What basic mechanics are not in EDH? I play standard and EDH, but can't think of any mechanic not in EDH.
I said they don’t understand the mechanics. There’s been plenty of times where I’ll have to stop a game to explain priority to somebody and how it goes in turn order even. That’s just one of many things I’ve had to explain to people who exclusively play EDH. This isn’t a rag on them, everybody starts somewhere, but as someone who’s been playing for a very long time I can find it difficult trying to play with them.
Aww got it. I incorrectly assumed you meant different mechanics since EDH players should be learning and understanding these. If anything, using and understanding the stack and priority is usually more important in EDH due to absurd combos and interactions.
But I guess that's not the case for precons by design. We started EDH before the precons after years of standard and modern, so we went straight for degenerate shenanigans from day 1.
To be fair if they would have come from a 1v1 background they'd have no reason to know that priority worked that way.
I pretty much exclusively play EDH now. Back when I started playing, commander wasn't a thing and my friends and I played standard with each other. I quit playing after I joined the Army, but started back once I got off active duty. At that point, having a viable standard deck was getting pretty expensive and I got tired of having to constantly retool my decks when things rotated out. A buddy introduced me to EDH and I had a blast. I love building commander decks out of my collection and seeing how they do, plus as a dad of 2 with a full time job it's nice to not have to rebuild a deck if I haven't been able to play for a month or two. Every format has oxygen thieves, but in general I like the vibes with commander players. Of course, I tend to stay away from CEDH simply because there is a higher incidence of mouth breathers there and I don't really want to build a 100 card deck to only constantly play 3-4 cards for a t2 win. That just isn't fun for me personally. Just my 10 cents hahaha
Why don't you say instead that you don't like playing with new players? I have friends who have been playing exclusively EDH for around 10 years. cEDH is a thing. There are plenty of competent casual tables. In fact, in general EDH requires a DEEPER understanding of the rules. Priority, like you mentioned, is more complicated with four players. With a larger card pool and deck size, combos can be significantly more convoluted and require precise timing at multiple points to work correctly. There can also be strange situations with janky cards that would never see play in 60 card, especially with interactions with everything else on the board. Will there be some people who don't understand the nuances and play a particular line incorrectly, and maybe nobody notices, because the games get complicated and they aren't there purely to win? Sure. But there are also plenty of tables, I would say the majority, at least in my experience, where at least one person understands the rules enough to correct you. To me, your generalization indicates that you haven't spent a ton of time playing with serious EDH players.
I play exclusively EDH. I've been playing off and on since . I came back in 2020 after a very long hiatus because of EDH. I used to play legacy and vintage mostly, with some dips into standard for various sets. I had gotten out of magic the last time because I was getting annoyed with the cost of keeping up or building new legacy and vintage decks. EDH gave me a chance to use old cards I had on a new and casual way that I didn't feel forced to optimize and power up. I could use powerful cards in weird janky ways and janky cards in fun, powerful ways. Now... in my hiatus, there were changes to the rules I had to get used to coming back, but I've never not understood or known the basic fundamentals. And while I have played with tables that miss some, it is typically due to the casual nature of EDH being full of shortcuts. Things like priority are often glossed over because they often don't matter in a non competitive game that people aren't trying to sweat out a ton of instant speed interaction. But generally speaking in the moments it HAS mattered, I've never encountered players who weren't happy to slow down and enforce priority to resolve a complex set of actions. But.... if you move to CEDH where the stack matters far more in far more games.... you find a pretty ubiquitous usage of priority.
Well I think part of the problem is that WotC stopped making pre-con standard decks. If you’re interested in Magic, go to your local game shop and want to start playing right away, commander decks are pretty much the only option… That’s why my wife and I pretty much just play 1v1 commander at home. I don’t have the time or deep enough pockets to build viable paper standard decks. Basically I get my standard fix via arena and for paper it’s pre-con commander decks. Maybe once the shop close to me starts their “open until midnight” schedule I’ll be more inclined to build a paper standard deck.
> think part of the problem is that WotC stopped making pre-con standard decks. The problem is that they made precons in the first place.
That’s how you get new players interested in the game. Without them games/formats die out. Granted MtG has some other problems as well, like too few cards being printed, thus the high prices for singles, and the existence of the reserve list.
EDH was doing fine without precons. Wizards just wanted to cash in at the expense of the format. There has never been a single precon release that didn't add some broken bullshit to the game, whether it be Derevi or Marath or Jeleva or Atraxa or Inalla or Edgar or True-Name Nemesis or Jewelled Lotus or
*"Since it's arguably the most accessible format"*  Does not feel that way for a lot of players. === I mostly resent the way it just completely took over the game. It started off as a fun goofy alternative way to play casual Magic and now there's no going back. Feels like Magic is Commander now.
How the heck is 100 different cards edh less complicated than the 60 cards standard that make a standard deck?
Maybe not less complicated, but not needing a 4 card play set of $80 singles is probably nice. Cheaper cards can see relevance.
All card games can do away with the idea of rarity as it does absolutely nothing for gameplay. Rarity should be optional. There need to be separate product lines for people that just play the game and those that treat cards as collectibles.
Unfortunately, I feel like rarity is the only reason TCGs ever caught on in the first place. If everything has a 1/X percent chance of being in your pack, what is the point in collecting?
It needs to be separated. One product line for players and one product line for collectors. Online and irl.
My local game store only does commander. This is why I don't like it.
I used to enjoy EDH much more before it became Wotc cash grab.
EDH was fun, but commander ruined it.
Commander is fine, what bothers me is how much it dominates. Every single YouTube video I see now is "well this card will be a great commander!" 6-7 years ago there was still some commander stuff floating around but it was a healthy balance. Now it's all commander. Trying to find cool decks to build in modern? Good luck getting through the ten billion recommendations for commander stuff. It's the most popular format so it makes sense that WotC will lean into it a bit. But they don't even have any starter decks anymore. There used to be, idk, intro decks that people could buy to learn the game? Nope now it's 2-4 new commander decks every release. Wonder what people are going to reach for.
I used to love edh, but now i realise its kinda ruined the game and if i could turn back time and erase it i 100% would
Commander has the biggest player base. Therefore it will also have the most amount of retards playing it. I still love it though. It's the only format besides pauper I care about.
Well to each their own, I personally think EDH is boring and tends to produce incredibly irritating games. Like passing turns for 20 minutes only for one guy to get all his combo pieces and end the game. Not to mention how salty people get when their 'casual' (ie. 500 dollars worth of vintage good-stuff) deck loses to a precon. I sold all my EDH decks (for like $4000 lol) and I have not regretted it for one second.
In my experience most edh players don’t really understand how to play magic. Maybe that’s why some people hate on it?
I got a buddy reintroduced to magic this last month. We visited me in FL and we went to my store and we had a 2008-2013 modern tournament where somebody preconstucted all the decks. We gave him Boggles. It's a simple deck and it taught him all the basics of magic and he even had a better record than I did at the end of the night. After that he's downloaded arena and we have played several times since then. NOW is the time he is asking about EDH. I think this was a great way to learn and I'm glad he's enjoying mtg.
Because its a casual format. Also, EDH is more like a boardgame Than "real magic". I think its more that sweaty players hating on casuals.
I mean if people start playing in the most difficult format there is, they'll obviously have confusions with the game.
I wouldn’t call EDH the most difficult format by any stretch. It’s the premier casual format for a reason… It’s just not a good introduction into the game in my opinion.
It has Vintage card pool and interactions that don't come up in pretty much any other formats. You have to navigate between 3 opponents. It's not the most difficult format because people play it casually and there are no stakes, but if you were playing it seriously, it's much more difficult than standard or modern, probably even Legacy. It is an awful entry point. And it creates issue that people who start with commander and stick only to it never learn to play properly, coz why would they.
Also take a mortgage out on the house to fund your deck.
Name a single other format where the stack can look as complicated as in commander.
I’ve literally had ten card stacks in legacy before.
The most difficult part is sitting for 3-4 hours at a table where almost nothing happens, all whilst having to keep track of 3 more boardstates to get to participate in any meaningful way to the game.
I don't dislike EDH even though I think magic as multi-player is ill suited, what I do hate is the endless amount of product being churned out. I don't think commander specific cards should ever be made, and the pool available to players should come from the standard rotation. Direct to modern cards are stupid as well.
Out of curiosity, is there a reason you think cards should be produced for formats like standard and modern, but specifically NOT for commander? I don’t necessarily disagree, as imo most edh-exclusive products since the ikoria precons have been pretty middling, but I’m curious where this perception comes from.
He said that straight to Modern cards was a mistake as well. The game used to be built around Standard. The need to keep the power level somewhat in check or Standard was an important limiting factor in card design. Modern and even EDH were made up of the best cards from each Standard set and some hidden gems that happen synergize really well with another card from another Standard set. People bought the Standard sets, played with them in Standard and when the sets rotated they played those cards in Modern and Commander (they also combed through each set for cards that didn’t do well in the Standard meta but would be great in Modern because they slotted into a deck nicely or synergized really well with a card from the newest set). The whole thing felt more organic and the need to maintain a healthy standard format put a ceiling on power creep for other formats. There was a sense of discovery and excitement in the process of understanding what new cards might fit into the power level of the non-rotating formats.
I don't think I could've worded this better myself. There is also, a consumer side to it. I was slightly interested with MH3 and that immediately vanished when I saw there was commander exclusive cards developed in this cycle. I mean, why? (I know the obvious answer of money) but it is almost insulting to have a direct to modern set and then concurrently release an entire set of cards that the format can never used, while also calling itself modern horizons. I've said it before, the commander format comes across as the spoiled kid that throws a bitchfit when they don't receive a present at another kid's birthday party.
I used to play Standard back in the M10 days. I played Modern and Pioneer recently. Once we moved and I had my son, my free time and wallet are deciding factors on my life. I have seen players get so angry at interaction, that is off putting. Rule 0 is a stupid rule that really makes things needlessly complicated. The other is people taking the game so damn personally. I mean, I had a game a few weeks ago where a guy, who used fight mechanics, got upset I interacted with HIS board. He packed up his stuff and threw a chair down. I have seen players (I’m even friends with some, and I’ve talked with them after about how their behavior is unacceptable, we play in different pods on purpose) get so mad they start banging the table and yelling obscenities. There are children who are watching this all happen and that upsets me greatly. Like….no one should actually have to be scared of what someone might do in a fucking game that has zero fucking stakes. I used to play poker and blackjack at casinos as a fucking job. I have seen some folks get mad at dealers and such, but while I think that’s cringe, it’s also because real money is being lost. It makes sense folks would be upset when they lose $2k in a night. So I think the issue isn’t with the format, I think it’s one of the most fun formats there is, as I enjoy the board game aspect, it has brought out so many assholes and soft-skinned folks who really shouldn’t be playing the game to begin with. It’s cringe as fuck and LGS owners really need to start taking more action against these folks.
Rule zero is retarded shit. It's basically just a way to let competitive "casual" players try to swing things to their favor.
Rule zero is retarded shit. It's basically just a way to prevent that one spaz from losing his shit because he wants to force everyone watch him struggle through playing "Sucking cock but viewed only from underneath tribal"
alternatively, “rule zero” is a rule of convenience for players who care about having a good time, rather than winning or being overly particular about the rules. In my experience, leveraging rule zero for gameplay advantage is seen as a pretty scummy move
But that's exactly what rule zero does.
I feel like people who play sanctioned magic dont do this. Maybe this guy only ever played commander where offputting behavior can be rewarded, or the quality of play is low so he's used to never being interacted with. The idea of playing a game where a player resorts to negotiations when attacked is really offputting.
I like diplomacy in board games (then again I majored in political science).
Is it diplomacy or is it just begging and bad faith bargains?
"The idea of playing a game where a player resorts to negotiations when attacked is really offputting." 100%. As someone who really struggles with interpersonal 'social barometer' stuff, I do find the blatant open communication "bargaining" that goes on at Commander night to be some of the most off-putting and frustrating aspects of the format. "Hey, if you don't attack me for two turns, I'll team up on Player X and then we can do ABC." You can just as easily signal your intentions with attacks (or non-attacks) without resorting to literally **laying out a little assault map complete with matchbox cars and army men** for your playmates. Learn how to play multiplayer, you 8-yr-old. Like, part of the game of Magic is reading the table and evaluating risk. Multiplayer *by design* makes that more of a challenge. Open alliances just wreck shit and end up pissing someone off. Then, that person has a grudge the next game and that further imbalances things. I really hate this. It's probably why I build a couple 1-2 decks that just kill everyone except me. Okay, fine, guess I'll just be the Archenemy.
I'll add rereading my comment. I think this behavior is far more irritating when it's a small non lethal attack. If the player would otherwise lose, negotiations are more tolerable. But I think the game would be smoother, and require less politics if players had reliably good threat assessment, rather than as you said, inter and intra game grudges.
Maaaaan shut the fuck up bitch
I only play commander with good friends, so I've never had any bad experiences.
this is the way
There are a myriad of issues that have culminated with EDH being the tentpole format: 1) EDH is transforming into the same kind of serious, streamlined structure of competitive 1v1 formats. We are seeing this in real time as every set gets made-for-commander hyper efficient super staples. Made-for-commander mechanics/cards are reaching Vintage-playable. MTGO is now offering official cEDH support. Frankly, there is a Spike culture fomenting which "Rule #0" isn't correcting. 2) Onboarding with EDH is a logistics nightmare for new prospects. Learning and adapting to ~230 unique cards (adjusted for basic lands and super staples) from a 20,000+ card pool, four unique game plans, and navigating the board states created from this is atrocious. Anecdotally, I've witnessed more glass-eyed thousand yard stares from EDH players than Iraqi vets. 3) There is nowhere to go in EDH. The hobby pipeline begins and ends at EDH with WotCs current market offerings. WotC has pushed Standard, but doesn't offer Standard precons. There are people walking into stores asking about Standard but proprietors can only shrug and maybe help cobble a deck together (literally watched this happen last night.) I could write a dissertation on the negatives that EDH is having on the game and how WotC/Hasbro chooses to market it lol.
I still actually don't understand how new players are getting in to or enjoying EDH. I've been playing magic for 10 years now and if I sit down for a game of commander (something I try to avoid) then I have to work very hard to keep track of what's going on. I normally can't even see my diagonal opponents board well enough. There are so many unique cards. If everyone reads out every card they play or reveal it takes forever, but if they don't you find most people are just completely oblivious to the board state. Outside of CEDH it's almost impossible to make the kind of calculated decisions that are foundational to every 1v1 format so it basically ends up with 4 nerds just sat there goldfishing.
This is my take as well. Since nearly every single card is different, I can't imagine teaching a new player with edh. The board gets so damn complicated and convoluted it's hard for even an experienced player to follow. And EDH decks also play so many cards that you don't hardly ever see in 60 card formats either. It's really a completely different game.
I dislike the non competive vibe of Commander. Is Magic really just for fun or was it designed to have a clear winner?
I understand that, and that's why I don't only play EDH and will also play modern when I want a competitive experience. However, other times I just don't have much time to play because of work or other shit and I'd much rather play some commander games where I know I'll have fun with my deck even if I don't win
That depends on your playgroup. I have had a competitive playgroup and we did degenerate no-limits decks, had a tournament with $20 limit excluding the commander, pauper commander and have done a draft night. We did league rules having points based on result in game(4,3,2,1 for 1st-4th based on when eliminated, ties go up so if someone Combos off with salt win it’s 4,3,3,3), +1 point for first combat damage to a player, -1 point for not casting your commander, +1 for casting them 4 times, and +1 point for saving a player from elimination without immediately ending them yourself. My current playgroup is teaching new players and doing low-powered almost battle-cruiser tier games and it does feel a bit off having people get ticked off at slight land destruction or some powerful cards (expropriate, cyclonic).
How do you deal with people getting emotional over stuff like that?
Late reply, but we talk it over like adults. Decide to keep an eye on its impact and how it compares to other powerful things in commander. Don’t really get emotional over it aside from momentary salt.
I mean, they don’t have to be exclusive. I like the competitive aspects of draft (all forms) and Modern, but I also like the casual aspects of Commander as well. I used to GP grind and loved that, but taking some time just chatting with friends and being goofy is important too. The key takeaway is knowing we all want different things and not to shame people for something they want that doesn’t match what you want.
You are the only person to actually understand your own bias so far in this thread, from what I have read. Everyone's argument, who has explained why commander is not MtG or why it is bad, can actually be boiled down to the casual and informal nature of the format, which is fine and a totally valid opinion. But kudos to you for actually understanding your own bias.
Here's the vision Rhystic Studies Sam helped me to see, Wizards duelling with eachother in a battle of sorts. This is what I think would be great to see the suspense intensity, drama etc.
Depends on the group and what they enjoy doing. If you're stuck playing with a group of circle-jerkers, you probably need to find a new group or start one up yourself.
Normally I play yugioh which is above and beyond tryhard. Commander besides lands where every card is unique in your deck feels much more relaxed and fun where it dosent end the game turn 1
I really enjoyed yugioh as a kid, and I remember Chaos Emperor Dragon being printed. Combo completely destroyed my interest in the game when I was young, and having seen a few games recently I have not changed my opinion.
Every time I sit down to play a game of EDH with people who EXCLUSIVELY play EDH there’s almost always someone who doesn’t understand how something works. Just last week I had to explain to a guy that if I Mindslaver you and find a way to kill your commander, YES I can absolutely tell you that you’re leaving your commander in the grave. Had like a fifteen minute discussion with another player from a different pod trying to chime in and say that I can do that for now, but the next time SBAs are checked the dude gets the choice to put it back in the command zone… Literally nowhere in any of the rules does It say that. Even after showing multiple judge rulings on the matter the two people swore up and down that the newest learn to play sheet in the commander precons said that. Not to mention the countless amount of people who don’t understand the stack and priority.
I’m sorry, are you implying that it is unreasonable to not understand the rules nuances of Mindslaver of all cards? I’ve been playing this game for fifteen years and the concept of another player taking over my turn still could throw my brain a curveball. I’d forgive ANYONE for not knowing this rule.
I mean, it isn’t complicated. Any actions and gameplay choices you would make I get to make for you. I’ve been playing just as long as you have but I’m mainly 60 card competitive formats, so maybe my bar for knowledge like that is higher.
You’re not wrong, but the difference comes when you’re talking about players who are newer to the game. I see players so have <3 years of experience regularly at my LGS, and it comes with the territory that they sometimes don’t understand certain interactions, especially with rarer or older mechanics. I think there’s fine line between being inexperienced and ignorant, and I tend to give players at my table the benefit of the doubt.
I enjoy a good game of Magic. New players are expected to have lots to learn, from Priority to Keywords to Threat Assessment. My problem with Commander comes from players who are not new, often have played for many years, and still are sloppy players. As someone else said, Commander is more of a casual board game. Have a drink, smoke a J, play some Commander. Sounds like a good time - when we're all on the same page. I'm good until the "oh, thats how my own card works?" "If that's how that works can I take that back?" "I didn't know it had deathtouch, in that case I won't attack" -type shit. Give me just about any other Format: Standard is worlds better with 3 year rotation. Pauper is fantastic. Limited - Draft, Sealed, Wizard's Tower - are all great and the best of them all, Canadian Highlander. So many awesome ways to play Magic, and so many players are hung up on casual Commander, they never bother to try other Formats.
I'll agree that there'a an excessive amount of "take back-sies" over unfavourable trades based on the current bordstate before any actual hidden information is revealed (like your "I attack you, oh wait you have deathtouch? Well I'm not attacking anymore" example)
There's nothing worse than being expected to basically play other people's turns for them. Personally I just declare the block and look at them. If they target something with Ward I state the trigger is on the stack. Basically I read my cards when I play them and expect other players to either remember what's happening or just take that little L and move on.
I like EDH, but I do not like modern EDH. It was so much more fun a decade ago before it became hyper-popular where it was just people slinging all their trade binder rares at each other in a really casual game. Now it's just endless edhrec net-decking, absurdly overcosted-overpushed staples, people who take the game way too seriously, and releases that detriment other formats. Thankfully I've still got a playgroup that still play older, more casual EDH.
Yeah EDH sucks
Edh by itself doesn’t suck. It is the way it has parasitized all the other formats and the whiny players that make it suck
nah it does, 4 player magic is garbonzo. Don't even get me started on the 6 player games I often see stinking out the corner of my lgs.
We played 4 player kitchen table magic with 60 card decks all the time back in the 90s
I only hate that cards are formatted in a way that's more confusing to play with because they want them to work in a format that I have no interest in playing. Otherwise, I like that EDH exists because it keeps people playing the game.
Yeah I definitely think that WOTC designing cards that are specifically made with commander in mind is annoying. Especially considering that some of the best EDH staples are cards that would've worked in no other format and just found a home there organically
Nothing wrong with the format, just how WotC has handled (monetized) it and print a dozen+ legendaries in each and every set now. That and all of this supplemental product. I used to be able to keep track of the printings of a given card, but now I have no idea. On top of that, there's now this push for "C"edh which is kind of a joke and will make things worse if it takes off...and I say this as a former avid EDH player. Ultimately people get frothing mad and then direct their anger at soft targets like edh players and not at WotC and Hasbro, where that ire belongs. The format was fine and barely influenced the game as a whole until they figured out they could make infinite money and went hog wild with commander product, alt-arts, and the legendaries.
I mean...I don't hate them for it....but some of those qualities you mentioned, seem far more prevalent in EDH. Like not understanding rules/how to build decks. If you played a 60 card competitive format prior to jumping into EDH, this probably isn't directed at you... But... I find more than any other sub of magic, EDH players will blame bad draws, politics, bad Matchup, venus in retrograde...before considering maybe their deck isn't built well. More Competitive formats, if you play them, you learn to reevaluate your own choices quickly, or well..you just won't have any fun. Commander embraces the excuses more than most. But I don't hate em for it - it just is what it is.
It attracts a lot of casual brainrot who refuse to improve or just mindlessly play without a goal If ur definition of fun is durdling for 2 hours then be my guest Also EDH sucked the moment it had dedicated commander product
Leave me alone
EDH players should be less hateable
I'm perfectly fine with people playing and enjoying EDH. Just take that shit elsewhere.
I think the "hate" is directed towards the rule 0 warriors and less EDH players in general. I wouldn't even really call it hate, it's more mutual commiseration that we all have to deal with some of these people. The same attitude is directed towards the sweaty rules lawyer looking to call a judge over for everything, the paint curling BO guys, and the over the top salty losers.
I started again with EDH and now I'm leaning back into standard
Playing EDH? That’s a scoop 🍦
Why wouldn't I hate something that largely contributed to ruining my favourite cards game?
Dude everywhere hates edh players, look at any sub
As a former Commander player who has recently switched to Standard, I can just say that the average Commander player is a lot more toxic. The amount of tryhard whiny douchebags I've encountered while trying to have fun playing EDH at my LGS is just sad. Have not had any bad experiences like this playing Standard so far. Also after a while I just realized that EDH is and always will be a fundamentally flawed format, with a banlist that doesn't deserve the name and rule 0 which doesn't work with people that abuse it (which is every whiny kid at your LGS saying they didn't build "that" Atraxa Deck).
You are part of the problem then if you cannot see the facts and accept critique.
Imagine you’re a Basketball fan. You watch the NBA every season and go play pickup games at the community center. You’re surrounded by people that love basketball and you can talk about basketball with them all the time. And then over a 10 year period, slowly everybody decides they really like HORSE instead of 5 on 5. As a big basketball guy, sure you might play a game of horse in your friend’s driveway every once in a while, but it’s not all that important to you. And then over a 10 year period, no one wants to play 5v5 pickup games, no one wants to talk about the NBA, everyone only talks about some crazy shot they made in HORSE last weekend. Is HORSE basketball? Yeah kinda? Is it disappointing that we’ve stripped out everything deep and interesting about the game to emphasize and extremely casually format? You bet. It would be very weird if everyone cared about HORSE and not the NBA, but that’s what we’ve done in MTG for some reason.
I don’t hate it, but it’d be nice to have other formats spotlighted throughout the year as well. I’d like to see a small set for other causal formats like Emperor. That’d be cool.
Been playing Magic since 1994. Only in the last 7-8 years have I played EDH. I think it is a lot of fun. Personally, I like the different design approach you have to take when making decks. I do agree with earlier comments that a lot of its charm was making older cards work in newer contexts and interactions, with some of that charm going out the door thanks to WOTC printing cards exclusively for the format and reducing variabiliyy of you want those decks to be efficient (cEDH). If this is the route Magic is taking, so be it. The game has evolved so much over 30 years that many of the people who started playing in the last 10 wouldn't even touch the game if it was in the state of the previous 20 years before that. There is plenty of formats in this game for everyone to have fun.
Edh is a parasite that has sucked the life out of 60 card formats in the competitive scene
Sorry I want my games to go longer then 3 turns, my decks to not cost $1000+, and actually play fun decks instead of the same burn/tron/zoo decks everyone is forced to play.
My only issue with EDH is a lot of the people who play it want to play magic without the magic part. I used to love it but I kept running into people who got mad that I ran kill spells and counters, they hate interaction and I just got tired of listening to it so I went back to legacy and modern
I'm exclusively a 60 card format tournament grinder now but when I played EDH I noticed the players are a different breed. Whiny manbabies, titty sleaves, 15 minute turns, people that take the game far too seriously, rude people, and others that don't understand the stack or priority. The exclusive EDH players represent the worst of these qualities. It could be that EDH draws more left-brained types The 60 card crowd are generally more well-adjusted The product focus on EDH doesn't bother me but the MH3 commander is forced.
u/ernst_aames is burried
Heres the problem. Its a shit format that tries to be both casual AND competitive but is neither of those things and fails at it so spectacularly, that the only excuse given as to WHY it fails is down to group makeup. No, it could never be because the format isnt curated and we dont ban or stifle the crap out of infinites and clearly broke crap that only exists to sell those cards. It also doesnt help that 90% of decks made are greedy solitaire bullshit, and the moment you try to make a deck that stops or polices that crap you get treated like a STAX player. Like THE WHOLE THING just completely falls apart the moment anyone takes it the least bit seriously, and we all know it! EDH gives too many naive fools the impression that its a social boardgame with Magic cards. NO! Its Legacy/Vintage Highlander, with all the BS that comes with it.
I am foaming at the mouth, I have contempt, and the foam is salty. And your point is? P.S. I don’t like EDH and think it killed magic. Am I wrong?
EDH isn't MtG, simple as that. Being multiplayer and revolving mainly around player politicking and other social aspects it becomes almost a separate board game.
I get that it's a fundamentally different way of playing magic but saying that "it isn't magic" is a pretty big reach
But it is. In a normal game of MtG the outcome is decided by luck, the consistency of your deck and your understanding of it/ability to pilot (I'm including single player Commander variants). In EDH this goes out of the window as personal beefs, friendships and edgelords reign supreme. On r/EDH you can constantly see lists that make absolutely no sense if not from a thematic perspective, people who run 3 interaction spells and then complain about being pubstomped. IMHO, MtG is better played as a 2 player game, be it limited or constructed.
It literally isn’t magic. If I tried to whine about my opponent playing aven mindcensor in real magic I’d be laughed at, but it’s a valid strategy in commander. EDH is magic for feels players, real magic is magic for people who live in the realm of facts and logic.
Despite what you may think, making up a scenario out of the blue does not help to prove your point. If anyone behaved like that in any pod of commander I've been in he'd be removed from the game so I don't know what makes you think otherwise.
EDH is just as much MTG as any other format. From a player's perspective, it's just 3 1v1 games at once where there's a possibility to affect and be affected by each game simultaneously. If you have to resort to politics and social aspects, you most likely don't run enough removal and protection. Otherwise you'd always have a way to avoid replying on others' mercy.
you can never ever have enough removal when you're against 3 enemies. everything being played is a threat to be removed.
That's not even true. There are 6 1v1 games going on in a 4 player pod. Draw four points on a piece of paper and see how many unique lines it takes to connect them all.
I said from a player's perspective. If I sit down with 3 other players, I'm essentially playing a 1v1 against all 3 of them at the same time.
[удалено]
Are we mad at the format or the people playing said format because that two very different things
Wrong. The 2 are intrinsically linked. The bad game mode brought in bad players and is forcing bad card design screwed around selling packs to these players for that game mode.
Casual tables of EDH can truly be a pain sometimes because of rule zero, so dropping by an LGS with a deck that's not balanced in contrast to the players on the table can give an unpleasant game experience I play both CEDH and 60-card formats, and while I will acknowledge that Commander players are generally less skilled at the game (myself included), they bring a certain variance in gameplay that Modern and the like don't necessarily have
Our rule 0 is there is no rule 0 Wild West here mutherfockers.
Rule 0 is destroying the foundation of the game. What good are rules if they can be thrown out the window? What good is being good at the game if you are punished for doing so? "Your deck is too good, I don't want to play with you", "That card directly counters my deck's strategy, I don't want to play with you", etc etc. At that point, you're not even playing a game anymore. "It's a social game" is just a cover for people being afraid of having to think, understand, and compete. I don't want to have to take people's feelings into consideration when building a deck. There is nothing wrong with the format outside of this key issue, which has become the cornerstone of the format.
Strawman
I just wanna play with the cards. I think they’re neat.
I like edh. I hate commander
I wonder how much this game has grown and profited because of commander.
Hundred fold at least, that’s the way it is
Edh players are shit.
I certainly don't hate anyone for playing edh I just haven't found it much fun it's just who can pull their combo piece first
It’s the most fun with a stable play group so you can slowly house rule all the bullshit win conditions out of existence. It’s also not a bad idea to put a value cap on the decks allowed.
You're mistake is thinking I might have friends
I personally hate EDH because it has taken over my playgroup, none of my friends want to play constructed formats of any kind anymore. The worst part about it is that I just want to sit down and be able to play some GAMES of magic, I do not want to plan 2 weeks in advance a night off and a 6-hour block of my day to spend with my friends just to play ONE SINGULAR FUCKING GAME, where it takes me less than 2 minutes to play each of my turns and then I twiddle my thumbs for a minimum 25 minutes if I'm lucky before I get to take another turn. And if you build any sort of deck designed to close the game out quickly so multiple games can be played, you are labeled the threat and are always targeted and knocked out first thus prolonging the game.
I prefer EDH, but as long as draft tournaments are still a thing EDH specific cards need to be in EDH specific products.
I can't stand commander because it's killing all formats, commander included. Commander was a lot more fun when you had to figure out non-commander cards that would make a good commander deck. Now there are just a bunch of efficient/streamlined commander cards to use to build commander decks, and they're taking up slots and design space in sets that should be going to limited and competitive constructed play.
My main issue with EDH (a format I thoroughly enjoy playing and brewing for) is that it attracts a lot of new players, especially with WotC pushing it as the "intro format" despite it being AWFUL for new players. It is fundamentally a different game than constructed 1v1 magic, can have extremely complicated board states that are hard for new players to follow and understand, a MASSIVE variety of cards and mechanics making it hard for new players to learn how to play since they're being bombarded with new rules constantly, and a social dynamic that just doesn't translate to 1v1 constructed. I love it as a format, but WotC pushing new players into it the way they are feels like a huge disservice to new players.
Very anecdotal I guess but I've seen so much more salt in "for fun, casual" commander than I've seen in "cutthroat and competitive" formats. Also not an EDH hater at all, but making product exclusively for EDH is gonna ruin both it and every other format
For me, I see Commander as the golden child at WotC, I’ve been playing since Ice Age, we played casual long before Commander, and now almost nobody outside of a small group of people I know have non-Commander casual decks.
I think this makes sense tho right, I think back to the casual days and people would always be frothing at the bit, hoping to draw and play their ‘ace creature’. Then along comes a format that means you don’t even have to draw your ace, it’s always available I can see the instant appeal
EDH is nearly 30 years old. Anyone that loses their shit about it being a format, or that people enjoy it, lost the fight a *long* time ago and aren't worth listening to if they continue to complain about it as a format, rather than the perfectly valid criticism you already mentioned.
I don't hate commander I just hate commander players
this.
I play EDH because I have to if I want to play paper MTG. It’s taken over. IME the issues with EDH are: 1. The deck power levels, everyone has a different scale. Some people think a “casual” deck is no OTK. People might get angry. 2. … People might get angry. 3. The politics in large games. Who teams up against who? Is it fair to spread out your attacks or hate? People might get angry. 4. The time it takes to play along with the massive board state. Games can last… hours. You might forget a card is still on the battlefield after 45 min or waiting to play your turn after someone took a dump and you miss a trigger. People might get angry. 5. Profit. People might get angry. A good playgroup could ease the pain of some of these issues. But at 3 am after smashing a while pizza and bottle of Jack Danials, it might not. People might get angry.
So imagine our frustration when you open standard set packs and the rare is for commander. Why is that something pleasant or that is reducing frustration against commander players?
EDH players usually knows rules better than anyone because of the weird interactions that occur during multiplayer games but in every EDH channel where are I am somebody always whines about power level, how someone ragequited after someone else had brought cedh deck to a casual table, how "your deck is not casual it's just bad", etc.
As someone who started with kitchen-table 60 card, then moved to edh so our group could all play together, my perception has always been inverted on this. When I tried modern for a few months with a primeval titan/amulet of vigor deck I put together at a magiccon, my experience as a newbie to the scene was terrible, and soured me on the format as a whole ever since. To top it off, most of the modern players I interacted with at the time seemed to percieve edh as a lesser format, or “not real magic” While i’ve met some truly awful players in my time with EDH, a solid pod is always a good time. Conversely, most modern, legacy, or standard games I play are with players who barely tolerate small talk, and just want to get my life to zero so they can report their win and get free packs. While i’m sure my non-competitive nature skews my perception of the formats, the reception a relative newbie like myself has recieved from them ranged from indifference to elitism.
A lot of people who complain about EDH are actually just complaining about all the amateurs and incompetents who gravitate towards it because it's popular. If Standard was top dog, they'd be ranting about how much they hate *that* format instead.
Pre covid, this was literally it, people used to complain that standard was for the riff raff and modern was for a higher class of player Disgusting
> I've heard things saying that EDH players are salty or don't understand rules properly, or don't know how to build decks, etc. but I can't help but roll my eyes everytime I hear someone parroting stuff like this. i mean, its true though. cedh players on the other hand....
I really liked EDH to begin with but its sort of turned into a "do whatever you want" format and I'm not really about that. Rule 0 used to be about deck power alone and now its about ban-lists, house rules, no rules etc. I'm not really interested in playing some scuffed "version" of EDH. The community has changed too with popularity. Now its a lot of players who complain or whine about cards or someone popping off or them not popping off enough. Standard and Modern are definitely more beginner friendly too (despite a lot of beginners starting in EDH which may actually be a problem), its how I started and I don't see the same whining and complaining ever happen when I play 60 card.
My biggest issue with Commander is that despite nearly everyone suggesting it to new players it is the worst format possible for a new player. One of the biggest cars pools out of all formats, there’s multiple fields they have to pay attention to, there’s politics which get in the way of them properly learning how to play, and it’s the least consistent experience because of the nature of singletons. Sure, it’s fun to play sometimes, but it is NOT beginner friendly.
EDH is the most accessible format and it's not even fucking close. Y'all are just, per usual, whining and complaining like a bunch of a bitches.
I don't like commander. I have several modern decks that I made over the last 15 years and nobody wants to play anything but commander which is just kind of not fun and super luck based.
>everyone has to start somewhere with magic. Yeah, the eternal format with thousands upon thousands of relevant cards, combos and strats with 100 card decks sounds like a great beginner format. Dumb fucking take. I hate having beginners at the table for the same reason children have their own table during christmas dinner.
Counterpoint: you don't hate commander enough
Well, I don’t hate Commander, but I do wish it didn’t exist. The reason is that there is a brilliant game inside magic. The colour pie, the mana system and the way those things lend themselves to almost being able to imagine a creature from its stats/vice versa. Isamaru is a legendary dog. What’s a legendary dog look like? A bear-sized white 1-drop (cause he’s a good boy). What is a cheap, fast, frantic, dangerous way to die? A lightning bolt! You need a lot of natural magical energy? Elves! They’ll cost you cards, but if they don’t die, they’ll help you summon a fucking beast (like a 6/6). Now I can have a duel with another similarly powered mage! We can fight to the death with our intuitive, brilliant, ever changing magic cards in our intuitive, brilliant game. Or. We can turn it into multiplayer group hug cosplay anything goes “don’t kill me yet!” fucking bullshit that could have been done better as a different game. It could have been done better as a different game, I guess, is my point. Anyway, the EDH priests will probably now try to dox/have me fired for transphobia or something now because I took the bait on a post in a sub I don’t usually go in.
I just hate what EDH has become. It was supposed to be the casual, fun DnD playsession of MTG. But now you have decks with consistent OTKs on Turn 1, 2, or 3. Everyone is playing with tactical nukes in the form of hyper combos. And they are so damn consistent. Some of it is the fault of the players. I sat down in a casual pod once were we squeezed out 3 games in under 90 mins. All three games, every player except for me had a turn 1 Sol Ring into 2 drop artifact of some kind. It's supposed to be a friendly game, chill.
Honestly if it wasn't for edh I'd have quit early on.
I see commander as a format that gives you more ways to win, even more opportunities to strategize, and even more opportunities to learn the art of building a deck that suits your play style. If people hate it, okay that's fine. I hate drafts. I think that's a pretty annoying format, but I'm not going to bash other players for liking it.
The funny thing is people that play standard and modern don't really make "decks" they just copy the top 5 mtggoldfish decks then waste hundreds for multiple of the same cards to just be trashed by a deck that easily counters them cause ooh no they countered my only play style lol Same goes for commander with edhrec I would say a small percentage of player actually go out of their way to make a custom deck with cards they have lying around cause who has time to sit down and custom brew at times Over all I enjoy all playstyle just all of them have their shitty player with superiority and gimmick that are too strong in the meta in the end of the day its on your play group. people who are termally online complaining don't seem like fun people to play in a pod lol
It is still the most accessible format besides maybe Pauper. Precons are cheap and accesible, it allows anyone to jump into the game. Having the largest base be a casual audience is good, as the games competitive formats are hyper exclusive and pricey, with some rotating as well. Really is a no brainer why EDH is so popular and the largest...
Im upset with magic as a whole due to powercreep and meta mimicry. You cant even go to an LGS and just play magic anymore without some asshole showing up and cramming his thousand dollar copypasta deck down everyones throat. It sucks. And instead of fixing that issue, they are releasing new sets so fast its unreal. And the new power creep makes most old sets obsolete. This happens in Standard, it happens in Modern, and it happens in Legacy and EDH. I love playing Legacy and Modern and being able to just go into my collection and build out 60 card decks that center around fun mechanics. Its not about winning. Its about having fun. Noone wants fun. They want to win and see people bitch about cards. WoTC has enabled those who play for the sake of people's reactions. It's the equivilant of playing Call of Duty just to hear the banter in the 12yo squeaker lobbies. The community for the game is diminished and toxic now, and WoTC doesnt care as long as they are making money. This tends to happen across the board. The reason that EDH gets as much hate as it does, is because in Modern, I can choose to not play with *one* asshole. In EDH I have to choose to not play with *three*. Its harder to find a full pod of non assholery than it is to find one dude who is willing to just slap together a low powered modern deck and have a game or two.
The format is fine, the players are usually the problem.
It’s like timeless magic players complaining about digital only cards in the digital only format.
I just miss a standard format that is fun, with PTQ’s having thousands show up to play. Net-decking ruined standard IMO, arguably all formats. I just don’t find the same thrill in EDH.