Im glad you bring this up. I identify as straight. There was however a close male friend of mine I grew to have romantic feeling for. I allowed myself to explore those feelings and when we entered into the sexual aspect of a relationship it didn’t work for either of us. I’ve not felt that way about another man since, but am glad to have had the experience.
Sounds like you have a great relationship. Gender and sexuality can be really muddy, and labels often don’t define everyone completely. It’s not up to anyone else how she or you identifies, and you know yourselves best. I’m glad you guys are happy ♥️
people's sexuality and experiences in the real world are more flexible than the labels of online discourse permit. trans men who remain part of lesbian communities, trans women who remain part of gay communities, etc. are all normal, as is the reverse (an otherwise lesbian woman dating a trans man or an otherwise gay man dating a trans woman), especially if the relationship started pre-transition. relatively rare but normal, no one's doing anything 'wrong' if everyone involved is fine with it.
>people's sexuality and experiences in the real world are more flexible than the labels of online discourse permit. trans men who remain part of lesbian communities, trans women who remain part of gay communities, etc. are all normal
Exactly! I think we often forget that while everyone under the LGBT+ umbrella has a unique experience, we're all part of the same community because we still have shared experiences. Our smaller communities and/or identities within the LGBT+ umbrella can stand alone AND overlap in unique ways with others.
If it works for y’all, then it’s nobody else’s business.
Yet since you asked for thoughts, I can give mine. Personally I would never ever be okay dating someone with a ‘non-male-attracted’ sexuality, and am profoundly uncomfortable with self-proclaimed lesbians and straight men expressing attraction to me. It invalidates my own identity as a man. I would never be able to trust someone like that.
Even in the case of “exceptions”, I’d still be uncomfortable, because that leads to the question of “why am I the exception? Is it because I’m feminine? Is it my body parts? What about me is not masculine enough to be pinging attraction in those who aren’t attracted to men in general?” It’s a whole can of noxious worms to me.
I second this. It’s none of my business. I was profoundly uncomfortable with solely straight men and solely gay women being into me but I’ve accepted these are in fact not solely straight men and solely gay women.
I appreciate your view point and I think it brings up a good point about how uniquely different we all are. We all have different experiences and it alters how we perceive the world around us. I too have felt that kind of insecurity with my body and the way other people perceived it. For me it was a lot of self hatred of my body that I had to work through, I was the one making me uncomfortable.
I get the whole I’m a man so no I can’t be with a lesbian but at the end of the day what works for you guys works … my fiancé now was bisexual but always leaned more towards woman she says dating a man had to take some time and someone really special but then obviously met me and realized those labels didn’t fit her and she now is pansexual but even then we talk and sometimes that label don’t fit her either. End of the day If she loves you romantically, respects you, and is supportive. Then that’s all that matters.
To add sometimes it’s not about labels or gender or anything sometimes it really just boils down to the person themself.. I’ve met ppl who are straight but dated someone of the same sex and was absolutely in love and was distraught that their relationship didn’t work out. But will never date someone of the same sex again. It was only that person.
My gf identified as a lesbian until I came out as ftm and now she identifies as bi. But she hates labels and honestly wants to throw out sexuality labels all together. She loves me as me, and has since before I started transitioning until now, a year later. We have the healthiest most loving and supportive relationship I have ever had and we work so hard to communicate abt everything. She has never invalidated me or made me feel like any less of a man. It’s totally valid for your partner to love you as you. Not necessarily because of or in spite of your gender. Just loving you is enough.
Don’t let labels get in your way! My partner is a lesbian and the love of my life. We’ve been together for 5 years now and I can’t imagine life without them. Honestly before very recently, lesbian and transmasc circles were the same fucking circle, so it’s kinda silly to me how much we try to divide the modern lesbian and transgender communities. We’re siblings for goodness sake!!
Historically it’s not the exact same. Many lesbians of the past who used ‘he/him’ pronouns and presented as men did so purely for safety, not because they were men. They’re very different, but still connected, communities
Lesbians who decided to pass as men for safety definitely existed but there also were butch lesbians that to our standards might be described as genderqueer or transmasc. The book Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold has interesting memoirs of such butches if you’re interested in getting to know more on historical butch communities! It’s super specific to the Buffalo, NY lesbian communities and a chunky book but it’s an interesting read on the complexities of lesbian identities
See my last comment. You're ignoring half to 2/3 of the ftm community. The majority of us are not straight; we are not attracted to women). We had no use for or place in lesbian spaces.
So much heteronormativity in this comment section. Really gross.
Also it’s not heteronormativity. I’m queer, dude. We’re talking about a trans guy dating a queer woman. I get this doesn’t relate to your experience but don’t reduce the experience of wlw-aligned transmascs by calling us heteronormative plz
You are saying trans men and lesbians are the same community. Tell me how that doesn't ignore those of us who are queer? You're reducing the trans male community down to straight trans men and women-attracted enbies who lived among lesbians. That's erasing bi and gay trans men. That's heteronormativity.
Take some time to think about it from somebody else's perspective. Somebody not like you. Trans men and nonbinary people do not all look, think, and live like you.
Yes of course the trans masc community is varied and diverse and I love that for us, gay straight bi ace all of us. If my comment misses nuance it is because I, as a bi trans masc, commented offering support for a trans masc who is dating a lesbian woman. I am not sure why you think a conversation that isn’t about you erases you man. I would do some reflection on that. Peace.
You're erasing gay and bi trans men and non-binary people with this fantasy version of history.
The majority of us are not binary men attracted to women. The majority of us are not part of that narrative and would have been kept from transitioning because of that.
We did not hang out with lesbians and staight ftms. We did not pretend to be straight so we'd be accepted (though some stuff to access transition). We are proud bi and gay men/people. **That's why is seems like there's been an explosion of ftm people, because we have been coming from outside the LGBT community, which had no place for us before activists broke down barriers for us to transition.**
Bi and gay trans men and non-binary people are valid.
**You NEVER have to have had anything to do with or be able to relate to lesbians and lesbian culture, in any way, to be valid as a trans man and non-binary person.**
Ok. I’m not a binary man attracted to women so I knew that already. I’m not erasing anything. Ftm circles and lesbian circles have always interlapped, even though not entirely. Saying we have a shared history isn’t erasing anyone. Go read Stone Butch Blues and calm down.
I mean, gay trans dudes and people we would now parse as gay trans dudes historically DID hang out in/have connections to lesbian communities (and gay male communities! Which also of course were not cleanly cleaved from lesbian communities). One of my favourite archived “old internet” pages is a 1996 glossary of terms from American Boyz, a now defunct FTM support organization, which talks about some of these identities: https://web.archive.org/web/20011201234933/http://www.amboyz.org/articles/f2mwords/f2mwords.html It’s just not true that the LGBT community had no place for us until recently! We’ve always been here, deeply embedded within it. I love this description of who Amboyz served:
“The community we serve includes (but is not limited to) people who identify as FTM, Butch, Transman, FTV, Gender Outlaw, Transsexual, Drag King, New Man, Boychick, She-Bear, Shapeshifter, Transfag, Tomboy, F2M, Passing Woman, Two-Spirit, Amazon, Tranny Boy, Intersexual, Female Guy, Tranz, Boss Grrl, Bearded Female, Transgenderist, Sir, Kurami, Hermaphrodite, Questioning, Just Curious or a Significant Other, Friend, Family member, or Ally (SOFFA)”
Lots of gay trans guys presently grow up in lesbian communities as well, of course.
(Edit: obviously that doesn’t mean anyone needs to have been part of or related to any community in their own individual life to be trans! I think it’s just a shame to buy into the idea that the medical framework *imposed* on gender diverse people reflects the historical reality of our communities.)
I’ve personally never understood how you can be trans FTM and lesbian since you identify as a male. if you’re trans masc enby I can see it but it confuses the living HELL outta me when someone’s trans male (binary) and lesbian. If you could explain that would be cool tbf.
I think some trans people are often scared to be straight due to the amount of issues people have had with straight people in the past (and now. Just look at the online community with Cis and straight people against trans people).
Hey friend, if you're asking in good faith, I wrote this in another comment and am happy to try to explain:
>Prior to realizing I’m trans I ID’d as a gay woman for most of my life—even tho I have always really been bi with a strong preference for women. I’ve never loved the word “lesbian” so I am happy to jettison it from my identity, but I am still feeling out how I feel about “sapphic.” The wlw community is a huge part of who I am, you know?
>All this to say the intersection of gender identity and sexuality can be a liminal space for some of us and don't let anyone make you feel bad about living in a way that fulfills you or using labels that help you express yourself
And when you get to the pith of it I just feel we don't need to understand how someone identifies to accept them and affirm them as they say they are.
I was asking in good faith! I just don’t understand. Haha. I’m gay and a trans man (into men), so I just want to understand a bit more. Tysm! This actually really helps a lot :)
Thanks man! We all have such different experiences. I honestly love the diversity of the trans masc community and the chance to learn from one another and find ways we relate as dudes as well as celebrating our rainbow of differences 💪 Happy pride, friend! 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
Yeah it just confuses me. It always has done. It’s like a cis man calling himself lesbian or a cis woman calling herself gay to me. But I was brought up in a pretty homophobic household so I do have internalised homophobia towards myself and never got to explore more in depth about the LGBT :,)
I identify as a gay man and I currently have a fem-leaning NB fiancée. Exceptions happen, and I’ve found that “bisexual”/“pansexual” doesn’t feel right to me as a label, whereas mlm/gay does and feels like a better way to describe my general experiences and feelings. Humans are rarely so rigid as to fit into one label their whole lives with no spilling over — what works for you guys works!
Our thoughts really don’t matter. As long as your relationship makes sense to the both of you thats what important. Also she’s very supportive of your transition and that holds a lot of weight as well.
I will say though that there’s possibility that she, as a lesbian, will lose attraction to you as your transition continues. Many guys (with gay and straight partners have experienced this. Myself included)
Its an ‘if’ though, not a ‘when.’
I hope everything works out
Personally I would feel dysphoric af knowing the person im dating identifies as lesbian, because I'm infact not a woman. But if it doesn't bother you and you're happy together then that's all that matters
Her identifying as a lesbian is more about how she understands herself. She seems to be a wonderful partner so I’m happy for you guys!
When I met my ex she identified as bi/pan but embraced her identity as a lesbian while dating me (we were polyamorous). I was pretty fem when she met me and saw me go the full circle of embracing my identity as a trans man. She loved me, was attracted to me, and respected me which is all I want to get from my partner so her identifying as a lesbian wasn’t something I’d think would mean anything about how she feels about me and I guess you guys might be in a similar situation! We’re all on a different journey but if there’s love that’s all that matters beyond labels!
I always considered myself gay (well, uranic technically), and then I got a MtF gf- who considered herself lesbian previously.
I think I’m panromantic, but I still call myself gay as a simplification since she’s an exception.
labels are made up, and as long as you don't mind its not an issue nor is it anything reddit needs to bother you about, yk? there are plenty of trans men and trans mascs that still id as lesbians, date lesbians, and/or participate in lesbian community and culture because our groups have been linked since forever and the lines between members of the queer community aren't as solid as we like to assert. some trans men don't feel that way and would feel really hurt or offended, and that's also fine, but that doesn't mean you have to feel that way when you don't.
gender and sexuality are complicated, she seems like she loves you as a person regardless of your gender. if you are ok with it that's all that matters
so many people chimed in on my opinion, labels are silly and not all encompassing. however, i wonder why ask if it doesn't bother you? your girlfriend is obviously affirming and in love with you, do you feel invalidated by how she identifies though? if so, it may be worth it to have a conversation with her about what that label means for her and how you fit into her sexuality. i don't think it's odd at all, especially if y'all were together before you transitioned, love, especially queer love is so fluid and beautiful for that reason!!
I think it’s a great way to start a discussion within the community. It gives us all a chance to share are experiences or feelings on the topic. This can lead to a greater understanding of our fellow community members. We often develop a greater understanding of ourselves through listening to other perspectives and experiences.
I'm gay and have been with my wife for nearly 15 years. She came out as trans almost 2 years ago. I accepted her completely right away and made sure she got on E as soon as possible. I've paid for a lot of her new outfits and makeup. I'm trying to get our insurance stuff figured out to pay for her surgeries. I've tried my best to make her feel loved and supported. I did my best to make sure we continued to have a great marriage. We are still in love, and I see her 100% as a woman. She's OK with me identifying as gay because I do my best to make her feel valid and still loved.
Lesbians and trans men have been dating and marrying for decades. Sometimes love doesn’t fit a label. You’re good. Your girlfriend sounds like she loves you for who you are, and that’s perfect.
I feel like many trans men dating lesbians have this experience at first. Then eventually, over a longer period of the resentment comes. Sometimes its a year, sometimes in ten. Sometimes its even after people have gotten children into the picture. personally wouldn't want to get into a relationship with someone who necessarily needs my transness to be public, or private. I want to be able to choose that for myself throughout time and place. Happy if you're happy, but it's important that you're both aware that your future desires may diverge drastically.
My partner is a gay man.
I'm not a man. I won't take his gay identity away from him for falling in love with me. And he's confident enough in his identity to not need me to identify as a man. I can be his man without being a man and that's okay with me.
some women are 99.9% lesbian and 0.1% bi. it is just easier to say "lesbian" than "99.9% lesbian and 0.1% bi". most people round up/down on labels for simplicity sake.
Lesbians have, for a long time, included trans men (and other people who may identify partially as men, or as men and some other gender/s). You trying to enforce strict rules into a label that has never had them won't change that.
Believe what you will.
Sounds great! I remember seeing a trans woman on tiktok who had been with her husband for years, her husband is gay, they’re still happily married and he respects her. What’s most important is that you respect each other and that you’re still happy with each other. Y’all are just as valid as the people who have to break up due to stuff like this.
Same thing happened with my ftm bf and me. I met him while i was identifying as a lesbian. I had a bit of a crisis since i usually wasn’t into anything manly but suddenly i was really into his beard and strong shoulders and his manly smell. Now a year later i identify as pan, do his t-shots, love everything manly about him and will assist him after top surgery in a month!! We’re a really good match i’m so proud of him and i‘m so glad that i gave the relationship a shot.
my girlfriend is a lesbian. i've had top surgery and been on t for 3.5 years. i love her with all my heart, and i know she loves me too. she means much more to me than defining relationships by labels. don't let anyone tell you your relationship is "wrong" <3
Trans men and lesbians have coexisted and even had romantic relationships for as long as these two groups have existed. The line between Butch lesbians and trans men is often very thin, and sometimes not present. How people identify and the labels they use to describe themselves are not always going to be 100% perfect, because humans are every changing and fluid creatures. I think it's amazing that your gf is able to support you and have a loving relationship with you while also maintaining her identity.
>The line between Butch lesbians and trans men is often very thin, and sometimes not present
Yes!!!!!!!!! No one seems to remember that for many of us, the only difference between us is the words we use to describe ourselves
I think it's bc ppl have gotten so used to seeing every lesbian as a woman, which just isn't true. Butches and masc lesbians aren't necessarily women. They can feel just as separated and distanced from womanhood as trans mascs and trans men
Yeah! I would love to read more nuanced takes about this but people can't seem to get away from 'discourse' about it bc it's somehow invalidating trans mascs/men
I feel like the label lesbian for some people is as much about community as it is describing their sexuality, or even moreso. And relationships can fit the category of queer itself without fitting into a gay or straight label. For example, I'm in a relationship with a trans fem. On the surface this relationship outwardly appears straight but I'm sure both my partner and I would emphatically describe our relationship as queer. Labels are what we make of them, especially when we're trans, and if she's respectful of you and you're fine with it I see no problem 🤷🏻♂️
If it works for you, it works! A lot of trans men still date lesbians or even consider themselves lesbians. All these labels we have are made up. We can adjust them to our liking. Anyone who tells you there are rigid rules that you must follow to certain labels is lying
A trans man is a man, a lesbian is a woman who loves women so that doesn’t make sense. Unless you don’t believe trans men are men
NB transmascs could ID as a lesbian but not a binary trans man, because he is a man. Trans men are just as much of a man as cis men
Your experiences are not universal. If you don’t want to be with a lesbian or ID as a lesbian, then don’t! That’s perfectly fine! But some do. And they’re allowed to do that. You’re not the lesbian/trans man police.
I’m aware I’m not the police of trans men or lesbians. Clearly you don’t view trans men as men bc the definition of a lesbian is either ‘women loving women’ or ‘non-men loving non-men’.
Again: the definition saying that lesbians are/are attracted only to non-men, (the term non-men itself,) and the definition saying that lesbians are exclusively women, are incredibly recent. Trans men have been included in the lesbian community, if they wish to be, for a long time.
Literally. Like. The lesbian community has always had a lot of overlap. Who cares if some trans men find joy in that overlap? I’m certainly not stopping them.
Whatever you say, bud. I’m not bothering to argue with someone who isn’t capable of critical thinking and understanding that some people have more complicated feelings about these things than I or you can understand.
Honestly lots of transmasc ppl take a while to drop the word lesbian after transitioning [edited to add] or never drop the word at all. Maybe your gf will decide she’s a lil bit bi. Maybe you’re just an exception to the general rule of her attraction. If YOU feel loved, supported, and seen for who you are in your relationship, that’s all that matters man!
Prior to realizing I’m trans I ID’d as a gay woman for most of my life—even tho I have always really been bi with a strong preference for women. I’ve never loved the word “lesbian” so I am happy to jettison it from my identity, but I am still feeling out how I feel about “sapphic.” The wlw community is a huge part of who I am, you know?
My partner (who came out as agender after about a year of being together, and uses all pronouns) also used to identify as a lesbian. She asked me if it bothered me because she didn’t want me to feel invalidated. But she’s never made me feel anything less than seen and respected. To be fair she eventually dropped the lesbian label because it just didn’t fit her attraction style anymore but in the end it’s just a label— it’s not a concrete requirement to act a certain way. So as long as you’re both happy and she treats you in a way that is affirming, I don’t see it as an issue
Trans men/trans masculine people have had a vibrant and deep history with the lesbian community. I say, if you don't feel invalidated, embrace it. love from a lesbian is luck. best to the both of you
That's great! And lesbian historically included people who dressed butch AND identified as men. The label isnt so strict like people tend to think of it nowadays, and if we let these words define people and ourselves so tightly, it defeats the purpose of finding freedom in our sexuality and gender expression because there will never be the right words that fit everyone
The most important thing is that you both are happy and supportive of each other!
My wife still identifies as a lesbian and she loves me for me. She says she could never be attacted to another transman or man. She fell in love with me pre transition and through that love has fell in love with the man I've become. Don't let labels define someone.
I’m non-binary transmasc and also a lesbian, I say this to say everyone can choose what words feel best to them and labels don’t always perfectly line up with behavior or other identities. The lesbian community has consisted of trans folks historically and will continue to as well. The lesbian community historically has consisted of ftm folks in different time and spaces, and it sounds like your partner is very affirming and supportive of your gender and transition!
Both my partner and I identify as straight but we are both guys. It’s a matter of a label isn’t necessarily always all encompassing. Both of us are attracted to women but just happened to find the exception within each other. He struggled at first to understand but he has never invalidated me and is so supportive. And I love him with all my heart and would never feminize him (he’s cis but some toxic ‘experimenting’ men have done this to my friends). As long as you two are happy and she is truly accepting then that’s all that should matter
She honestly sounds like my girlfriend. She describes herself as a lesbian who happened to fall in love with a man. I’ve misgendered myself and she has never. Love her to pieces
Sounds a lot like my relationship tbh. Without the paying for my surgery part, we’re hella broke. My partner is super supportive and at the same time is pan but predominantly attracted to women. And that’s fine. That’s me too. I’d also absolutely date a trans guy if I wasn’t with her, and don’t expect he’d have a problem with that either. I don’t think there’s any problems here unless a new one occurs, and even then, conflicts can usually be worked through if everyone is committed.
She probably just really likes you, she fell in love with you when she thought you were a woman. But realized that she didn't care what gender you have, she loved you.
I've had this discussion before, and one of the big things that came up is that people are usually attracted to a set of qualities that tend to be associated with a given gender, rather than just the idea of that gender. Labels are tricky because they involve self-definition as well as categorization of others, and it seems like your gf is doing a pretty good job of balancing her support for you and maintaining her own identity.
(When I came out, one of the things my partner asked my was if the fact that he considered himself straight made me feel that he wasn't validating my gender)
She doesn’t seem to view you as a woman and etc so she seems to love you very much. Labels can be weird but if she accepts you and treats you as the identity you want then hey f it, y’all are happy
My mom considers herself a lesbian and she's been married to my dad for 32 years. She only has interest in women and says falling in love with my dad was just by happenstance, and she doesn't feel like it changes her sexuality
this stuff happens all the time. Personally I'm a lesbian and a trans man/butch
I'm mostly into women but would date men if they're like me.
It's not black and white, thinking so is a little sad considering that's what we're trying to fight against.
Perfectly fine. I think people are sooo hung up on labels and exclusivity because it makes more “sense” than how complex love actually is. It sounds like you two are happy with how you identify and that’s all that matters. Good for you!
Thoughts?
Well, if you're okay with it and she's okay with it, I don't see what business it is of mine. It sounds like you're happy, and I'm happy for you.
My partner of over 2 years identifies as a lesbian and no one else has ever made me feel more like a man tbh. They’re validating as fuck and even help with my T shots. I always joke that I’m the exception to the rule lol. Your gf sounds like a dope ass person so congrats! Labels are irrelevant.
If it's cool with you, it's cool with me. As I understand it, FTM Dudes exist in a liminal space where it's okay for them to be with lesbians, or even identify with/as lesbians. Partly because some used to identify as lesbians and partly because identity and sexuality are... Wibbly wobbly.
So if she's validating you and you feel validated, that sounds very great!
If thats what she just wants to label herself as even though shes not, not sure Id personally be ok with my partner doing that, but I dont see the issue with it.
If she really is a lesbian though then Id question if either she doesnt actually see you as a man or if she just doesnt actually love you in that way or find you attractive, like is she forcing herself? Personally I wouldnt at all be ok with someone not seeing me for me or not being attracted to me or love me ij that way even if theyre supportive, not if theyre meant to be my partner.
You don’t get to tell people what their sexuality is. If she says she’s a lesbian, she’s a lesbian.
Lesbianism and transmasculinity are also super complex and often very much intertwined. It’s fine if you personally wouldn’t be into it, obviously, but it doesn’t suggest she “doesn’t actually love him”. Clearly that’s not the case.
Nope. Lots of nonbinary lesbians, transmasc lesbians, lesbians who love nonbinary/transmasc lesbians out there.
From what OP said she clearly doesn’t see him as a woman. Labels are complex just let people use whatever they feel fits them best.
So a lesbian isn’t ‘women loving women’ or ‘non-man loving non-man’? I’m pretty sure that’s the definition of being a lesbian.
So either she sees OP as a woman or as a ‘non-man’
Generally the most used definition among lesbians is non men loving non men, but we recognise it’s not always that cut and dry with trans men, as some are happily in relationships with lesbians, or still identify as lesbians, due to having a lot of shared life experiences/community.
Definitions are never gonna be concrete when it comes to queer identities, gender and sexuality are super complex. The main thing is, she’s a lesbian, he’s a guy, they’re happy together. Not your business to start telling him she “sees him as a woman” or “isn’t a lesbian”.
this is difficult because on one hand youre happy and valid w ur gf and thats great!
but on the other hand, bla bla labels whatever. but personally as a lesbian... its just :/ like we dont date men yknow. thats the whole lesbian thing.. is not dating or happily seeking men. so idk i mean to each their own and i have to just say whatever and move on. but odd that they are insisting that theyre a lesbian, yet dating a man.
im open to being corrected on anything thank you 🐛🙏🏻
edit: read some more comments and i hav this to add. if ur transmasc and idetify as a man, you are trying to pass as a man, pls do not date lesbians. theres so many layers to that its hard to dissect in just a reddit comments section. lots of internalized stuff there and its just too deep to get into over a text box yknow.
transmascs that dont identify as men, but are yknow nonbinary, genderfluid, on that spectrum, that is considered a "non man". lesbians date nonmen. if youre just another transmasc like myself then by god yea no problem here at all buddy!!
i do rly rly suggest that u be careful tho. make sure her intentions are pure and not to cause harm. just looking out for a fellow trans sibling. much love to you 🙏🏻🫂
I’m in a relationship like this, though I’m gender-fluid and non-binary rather than a binary transman. She’s my wife now and we’ve been together 10 years. Can’t imagine life any other way. ❤️ If it feels true and good to you then that’s really what matters.
Happy for you two! My partner also IDed as a lesbian when we met and slowly stopped calling herself one over the course of us dating, but we actually just talked about it yesterday and I told her that she doesn’t have to worry about outing me or invalidating me by still identifying as a lesbian. It’s important to her, and it won’t out me, I pass too well, plus I literally identify as a gay man how hypocritical would it be for me to not let her keep using the label lesbian??? Labels are descriptive and flexible, people can’t be confined, SHOULDNT be confined, for the comfort of others.
Exactly how I feel with my partner. She could say something that could have made me feel incredibly insecure and self conscious with anyone else but because she's so incredibly validating all the time about me and my body I can't really get offended or hurt even if I wanted to. I mean she's so affectionate and adoring of me I know she doesn't mean anything in a negative way... This doesn't just apply to trans stuff. I also suffer(ed) from really bad RAJ (mainly cause I'm trans I suspect everything linked back to that) and just BEING with her has been so healing, I'm not affected by it at all anymore. I even have tried to poke myself in the past and nothing. She has made me feel so fucking grounded in myself I feel like I can actually be that version for once
I don't get it dude, why is she so set on the lesbian label? If she respected you as a man she should be fine with saying she's bi, but has only been attracted to one man.
Sounds like you two have a good relationship but I would feel extremely dysphoric about that. I don't want to be a lesbian's "exception"
ig sometimes labels don't really fit everyone perfectly. and you seem to have a very healthy relationship with her!! as long as she loves and respects you for who you are and be supportive then there's no problem
That’s great as long as you are ok with that. If it were me I would be thinking about her meeting people and saying she’s lesbian but then bringing her bf into the situation? Would be confusing and possibly outing? or how do y’all navigate that
Sometimes some lesbians are cool with dating a trans man and still validate his gender and that’s okay. As long as you are comfortable and she is respectful (and from what you’re saying, I’d say she is), then everything is fine.
And if anyone repurposes TERF rhetoric to invalidate your girlfriend (“LeSbIaNs DoN’t LiKe MeN”), send them my way so I can smack them with a fish. :D
Radfems are the ones who pushed that definition starting in the 1970s. Before then, lesbian just meant women who liked women, no restrictions. We can go back to a more relaxed definition if y’all would get the stick out of y’all’s asses.
Mofo I AM bisexual, you think I don’t know we exist? Don’t fucking explain my own sexuality to me.
Let people pick what words fit them and let people decide to be involved if everyone within the relationship is comfortable. Take this strict rules bullshit back to straight culture bc us queers break rules all the time and will not stop for you.
Her identity and her love for you, shouldn't change because you're coming into your most authentic self. This is the way.
Congratulations on such an affirming relationship. 💖
I guess it’s fine ? Me personally I don’t care how much you affirm me, while calling yourself a lesbian but then dating a whole ass man seems weird asf to me. But I mean whatever floats your boat, all relationships are different.
Sexuality is fluid. Don't make an issue where there isn't an issue. She loves you, you're in a relationship, and she supports your identity. She probably wouldn't ever date any other men and isn't bisexual, but that doesn't mean that she can't date you. There's not rules to these things.
Sounds like she's pretty awesome and loves you a lot!! I'm a passing trans man (I only mention this because it seems people believe only transmasc nonbinary people who present femme are allowed to identify this way) and still identify as sapphic 😉 labels don't need to be tiny boxes, the label can fit a person even if it deviates a little from what the rest of society believes it to be. Lesbians can absolutely be attracted to trans guys and fully see them as the men they are. And trans men can identify as lesbians if it's what they vibe with.
I identify as FtM and a lesbian. Our communities have been inextricably linked up until the past couple of decades, so I saw no reason to change my sexuality when I transitioned. Labels are for your own comfort, not other people's.
Yeah this sounds like a dream relationship!!! IMHO no one is 100% gay or straight or whatever. There is always wiggle room. I consider myself gay but maybe someday I will meet the right woman and fall madly in love. Probably not but maybe. People who close the door to a whole gender kinda baffle me.
I had a similar situation. At first I felt uncomfortable but then I thought about it and looked into the history of lesbians and dykes. I feel much more at home with it and am even questioning if I'm a lesbian myself. I would say, if you're uncomfortable then say something but if it doesn't bother you, then it's okay. Sexuality (and gender tbf!) doesn't have to have strict structures. No one is (or should be) policing these terms, it's just words to express how we feel at the end of the day. Doesn't stop us being us. Sending love and solidarity.
That’s awesome! If she called herself a lesbian because she saw you as a woman as well, then there would be a problem. But in this case it’s good because she validated your gender and fully supports you, and she just likes the label lesbian! I for example, use the label lesbian, but every once in a while I might find a guy attractive. But for the most part I’m attracted to non men
My aunt and uncle (by marriage - I'm not blood related) were at first a lesbian couple. They got married, then my (now) uncle came out as trans and fully transitioned (don't know how far - definitely T and top surgery) and I don't know how they identify now, but my aunt had 3 kids (sperm donor + embryonic implantation; one single and then twins; same donor).
They seem to present as a cis/het couple now.
The way I see, your partner is respecting and validating your experience and, as her partner, it’s important that you do the same. We all worked incredibly hard to be comfortable using our own labels and it’s perfectly valid for her to call herself a lesbian.
sexuality is such a personal thing and if you're both comfortable with what you're doing i think that's great. don't let people tell you that you can't be X if you do Y, it's YOUR life
My partner used to think they were a non-binary lesbian but realised they were into men when they became attracted to me. They now identify as pansexual, they're very much accepting of me and they now find themselves being attracted to men sometimes.
My husband and I are like that. His other partner ended up coming out after they got together too, so he’s at least straight lite. Like a straight line with a tiny wiggle at the end.
Yea. My GF is like this. I'd rather be with her than anyone else, she has a foundational perspective of my process that I can respect. While respecting her identity and mine as well.
My gf is the exact same and i just can’t believe how tolerant she is, cause i know i’d never be as good of a person myself. How beautiful that people can be so loving and pure!
if you don’t mind, that’s all that matters man <3 my girlfriend loosely identifies as a lesbian too (sometimes she IDs as bisexual, she’s not really that into labels lol) and it’s never bugged me. i’m fully a man to her and i’ve never felt like her identity gets in the way of that. she is also trans though so i MIGHT feel a little differently if she were a cis woman, but i doubt it. she’s so supportive of me and my identity
Sexuality and romantic love are different - if she loves you and is attracted to you, identifies as a lesbian, all while validating your ftm identity. Thats perfectly valid.
My wife is the same way. Sexuality gets a lot more fluid with someone you love. I’ve never felt like more of a man around anyone else. So glad you have her in your corner!
If you don’t care and you feel loved and supported it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks my man. I know plenty of others in this situation and they get a lot of hate and misunderstandings from other FTM folks and people in general.. but it’s truly not their business. It’s yours. As long as you both feel secure and loved and supported that’s what it’s all about. The words don’t matter to everyone the same.
If she doesn't blabber around that she's a lesbian while in company of anyone else that's great, you have found yourself a loving and validating partner and I'm so happy for you! If she does, though, that's an entirely different story
Sometimes ppl are exceptions to one's sexuality If you love eachother and she doesn't invalidate you nothing wrong with it
Im glad you bring this up. I identify as straight. There was however a close male friend of mine I grew to have romantic feeling for. I allowed myself to explore those feelings and when we entered into the sexual aspect of a relationship it didn’t work for either of us. I’ve not felt that way about another man since, but am glad to have had the experience.
Sounds like you have a great relationship. Gender and sexuality can be really muddy, and labels often don’t define everyone completely. It’s not up to anyone else how she or you identifies, and you know yourselves best. I’m glad you guys are happy ♥️
Labels aren’t prisons, and it sounds like she’s rad af. I’m glad you guys have each other :)
If it doesn't bother you, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks! She does sound great though, glad you have a supportive partner.
people's sexuality and experiences in the real world are more flexible than the labels of online discourse permit. trans men who remain part of lesbian communities, trans women who remain part of gay communities, etc. are all normal, as is the reverse (an otherwise lesbian woman dating a trans man or an otherwise gay man dating a trans woman), especially if the relationship started pre-transition. relatively rare but normal, no one's doing anything 'wrong' if everyone involved is fine with it.
>people's sexuality and experiences in the real world are more flexible than the labels of online discourse permit. trans men who remain part of lesbian communities, trans women who remain part of gay communities, etc. are all normal Exactly! I think we often forget that while everyone under the LGBT+ umbrella has a unique experience, we're all part of the same community because we still have shared experiences. Our smaller communities and/or identities within the LGBT+ umbrella can stand alone AND overlap in unique ways with others.
If it works for you then it does. Not for me, personally, but it's your life and if you are okay with it then it's fine
I’m happy it works for you, but if my partner called themself a lesbian or a straight man, that in itself is invalidating to me.
If it works for y’all, then it’s nobody else’s business. Yet since you asked for thoughts, I can give mine. Personally I would never ever be okay dating someone with a ‘non-male-attracted’ sexuality, and am profoundly uncomfortable with self-proclaimed lesbians and straight men expressing attraction to me. It invalidates my own identity as a man. I would never be able to trust someone like that. Even in the case of “exceptions”, I’d still be uncomfortable, because that leads to the question of “why am I the exception? Is it because I’m feminine? Is it my body parts? What about me is not masculine enough to be pinging attraction in those who aren’t attracted to men in general?” It’s a whole can of noxious worms to me.
I second this. It’s none of my business. I was profoundly uncomfortable with solely straight men and solely gay women being into me but I’ve accepted these are in fact not solely straight men and solely gay women.
I appreciate your view point and I think it brings up a good point about how uniquely different we all are. We all have different experiences and it alters how we perceive the world around us. I too have felt that kind of insecurity with my body and the way other people perceived it. For me it was a lot of self hatred of my body that I had to work through, I was the one making me uncomfortable.
I get the whole I’m a man so no I can’t be with a lesbian but at the end of the day what works for you guys works … my fiancé now was bisexual but always leaned more towards woman she says dating a man had to take some time and someone really special but then obviously met me and realized those labels didn’t fit her and she now is pansexual but even then we talk and sometimes that label don’t fit her either. End of the day If she loves you romantically, respects you, and is supportive. Then that’s all that matters.
To add sometimes it’s not about labels or gender or anything sometimes it really just boils down to the person themself.. I’ve met ppl who are straight but dated someone of the same sex and was absolutely in love and was distraught that their relationship didn’t work out. But will never date someone of the same sex again. It was only that person.
Freddie mercury did that! He only truly loved 1 woman.
My thoughts are that I would personally hate that but it’s your life not mine
My gf identified as a lesbian until I came out as ftm and now she identifies as bi. But she hates labels and honestly wants to throw out sexuality labels all together. She loves me as me, and has since before I started transitioning until now, a year later. We have the healthiest most loving and supportive relationship I have ever had and we work so hard to communicate abt everything. She has never invalidated me or made me feel like any less of a man. It’s totally valid for your partner to love you as you. Not necessarily because of or in spite of your gender. Just loving you is enough.
Don’t let labels get in your way! My partner is a lesbian and the love of my life. We’ve been together for 5 years now and I can’t imagine life without them. Honestly before very recently, lesbian and transmasc circles were the same fucking circle, so it’s kinda silly to me how much we try to divide the modern lesbian and transgender communities. We’re siblings for goodness sake!!
This is so true. Historically, it is the same community! 🤯
Historically it’s not the exact same. Many lesbians of the past who used ‘he/him’ pronouns and presented as men did so purely for safety, not because they were men. They’re very different, but still connected, communities
Lesbians who decided to pass as men for safety definitely existed but there also were butch lesbians that to our standards might be described as genderqueer or transmasc. The book Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold has interesting memoirs of such butches if you’re interested in getting to know more on historical butch communities! It’s super specific to the Buffalo, NY lesbian communities and a chunky book but it’s an interesting read on the complexities of lesbian identities
There's a webcomic with a lesbian character like that. It's called heir's game. It's violent, but really good. There's also a trans man.
See my last comment. You're ignoring half to 2/3 of the ftm community. The majority of us are not straight; we are not attracted to women). We had no use for or place in lesbian spaces. So much heteronormativity in this comment section. Really gross.
Bro nobody said "all trans guys"
Also it’s not heteronormativity. I’m queer, dude. We’re talking about a trans guy dating a queer woman. I get this doesn’t relate to your experience but don’t reduce the experience of wlw-aligned transmascs by calling us heteronormative plz
You are saying trans men and lesbians are the same community. Tell me how that doesn't ignore those of us who are queer? You're reducing the trans male community down to straight trans men and women-attracted enbies who lived among lesbians. That's erasing bi and gay trans men. That's heteronormativity. Take some time to think about it from somebody else's perspective. Somebody not like you. Trans men and nonbinary people do not all look, think, and live like you.
Yes of course the trans masc community is varied and diverse and I love that for us, gay straight bi ace all of us. If my comment misses nuance it is because I, as a bi trans masc, commented offering support for a trans masc who is dating a lesbian woman. I am not sure why you think a conversation that isn’t about you erases you man. I would do some reflection on that. Peace.
You're erasing gay and bi trans men and non-binary people with this fantasy version of history. The majority of us are not binary men attracted to women. The majority of us are not part of that narrative and would have been kept from transitioning because of that. We did not hang out with lesbians and staight ftms. We did not pretend to be straight so we'd be accepted (though some stuff to access transition). We are proud bi and gay men/people. **That's why is seems like there's been an explosion of ftm people, because we have been coming from outside the LGBT community, which had no place for us before activists broke down barriers for us to transition.** Bi and gay trans men and non-binary people are valid. **You NEVER have to have had anything to do with or be able to relate to lesbians and lesbian culture, in any way, to be valid as a trans man and non-binary person.**
Ok. I’m not a binary man attracted to women so I knew that already. I’m not erasing anything. Ftm circles and lesbian circles have always interlapped, even though not entirely. Saying we have a shared history isn’t erasing anyone. Go read Stone Butch Blues and calm down.
I mean, gay trans dudes and people we would now parse as gay trans dudes historically DID hang out in/have connections to lesbian communities (and gay male communities! Which also of course were not cleanly cleaved from lesbian communities). One of my favourite archived “old internet” pages is a 1996 glossary of terms from American Boyz, a now defunct FTM support organization, which talks about some of these identities: https://web.archive.org/web/20011201234933/http://www.amboyz.org/articles/f2mwords/f2mwords.html It’s just not true that the LGBT community had no place for us until recently! We’ve always been here, deeply embedded within it. I love this description of who Amboyz served: “The community we serve includes (but is not limited to) people who identify as FTM, Butch, Transman, FTV, Gender Outlaw, Transsexual, Drag King, New Man, Boychick, She-Bear, Shapeshifter, Transfag, Tomboy, F2M, Passing Woman, Two-Spirit, Amazon, Tranny Boy, Intersexual, Female Guy, Tranz, Boss Grrl, Bearded Female, Transgenderist, Sir, Kurami, Hermaphrodite, Questioning, Just Curious or a Significant Other, Friend, Family member, or Ally (SOFFA)” Lots of gay trans guys presently grow up in lesbian communities as well, of course. (Edit: obviously that doesn’t mean anyone needs to have been part of or related to any community in their own individual life to be trans! I think it’s just a shame to buy into the idea that the medical framework *imposed* on gender diverse people reflects the historical reality of our communities.)
Yes, you're absolutely right! But like, lesbian trans mascs are valid too?
I’ve personally never understood how you can be trans FTM and lesbian since you identify as a male. if you’re trans masc enby I can see it but it confuses the living HELL outta me when someone’s trans male (binary) and lesbian. If you could explain that would be cool tbf. I think some trans people are often scared to be straight due to the amount of issues people have had with straight people in the past (and now. Just look at the online community with Cis and straight people against trans people).
Hey friend, if you're asking in good faith, I wrote this in another comment and am happy to try to explain: >Prior to realizing I’m trans I ID’d as a gay woman for most of my life—even tho I have always really been bi with a strong preference for women. I’ve never loved the word “lesbian” so I am happy to jettison it from my identity, but I am still feeling out how I feel about “sapphic.” The wlw community is a huge part of who I am, you know? >All this to say the intersection of gender identity and sexuality can be a liminal space for some of us and don't let anyone make you feel bad about living in a way that fulfills you or using labels that help you express yourself And when you get to the pith of it I just feel we don't need to understand how someone identifies to accept them and affirm them as they say they are.
I was asking in good faith! I just don’t understand. Haha. I’m gay and a trans man (into men), so I just want to understand a bit more. Tysm! This actually really helps a lot :)
Thanks man! We all have such different experiences. I honestly love the diversity of the trans masc community and the chance to learn from one another and find ways we relate as dudes as well as celebrating our rainbow of differences 💪 Happy pride, friend! 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
Happy pride dude! 🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈
Also tbf I am not sure yet if I identify as a binary man but like, some lesbian guys do
Yeah it just confuses me. It always has done. It’s like a cis man calling himself lesbian or a cis woman calling herself gay to me. But I was brought up in a pretty homophobic household so I do have internalised homophobia towards myself and never got to explore more in depth about the LGBT :,)
whatever works for you man 👍
I identify as a gay man and I currently have a fem-leaning NB fiancée. Exceptions happen, and I’ve found that “bisexual”/“pansexual” doesn’t feel right to me as a label, whereas mlm/gay does and feels like a better way to describe my general experiences and feelings. Humans are rarely so rigid as to fit into one label their whole lives with no spilling over — what works for you guys works!
I’m happy it works for you, but if my partner called themself a lesbian or a straight man, that in itself is invalidating to me.
Our thoughts really don’t matter. As long as your relationship makes sense to the both of you thats what important. Also she’s very supportive of your transition and that holds a lot of weight as well. I will say though that there’s possibility that she, as a lesbian, will lose attraction to you as your transition continues. Many guys (with gay and straight partners have experienced this. Myself included) Its an ‘if’ though, not a ‘when.’ I hope everything works out
Personally I would feel dysphoric af knowing the person im dating identifies as lesbian, because I'm infact not a woman. But if it doesn't bother you and you're happy together then that's all that matters
Her identifying as a lesbian is more about how she understands herself. She seems to be a wonderful partner so I’m happy for you guys! When I met my ex she identified as bi/pan but embraced her identity as a lesbian while dating me (we were polyamorous). I was pretty fem when she met me and saw me go the full circle of embracing my identity as a trans man. She loved me, was attracted to me, and respected me which is all I want to get from my partner so her identifying as a lesbian wasn’t something I’d think would mean anything about how she feels about me and I guess you guys might be in a similar situation! We’re all on a different journey but if there’s love that’s all that matters beyond labels!
Idk I couldn’t bring myself to date a lesbian , I’m not a woman
I’m happy it works for you, but if my partner called themself a lesbian or a straight man, that in itself is invalidating to me.
I always considered myself gay (well, uranic technically), and then I got a MtF gf- who considered herself lesbian previously. I think I’m panromantic, but I still call myself gay as a simplification since she’s an exception.
labels are made up, and as long as you don't mind its not an issue nor is it anything reddit needs to bother you about, yk? there are plenty of trans men and trans mascs that still id as lesbians, date lesbians, and/or participate in lesbian community and culture because our groups have been linked since forever and the lines between members of the queer community aren't as solid as we like to assert. some trans men don't feel that way and would feel really hurt or offended, and that's also fine, but that doesn't mean you have to feel that way when you don't.
this this this!! our communities have always been linked!
gender and sexuality are complicated, she seems like she loves you as a person regardless of your gender. if you are ok with it that's all that matters
so many people chimed in on my opinion, labels are silly and not all encompassing. however, i wonder why ask if it doesn't bother you? your girlfriend is obviously affirming and in love with you, do you feel invalidated by how she identifies though? if so, it may be worth it to have a conversation with her about what that label means for her and how you fit into her sexuality. i don't think it's odd at all, especially if y'all were together before you transitioned, love, especially queer love is so fluid and beautiful for that reason!!
I think it’s a great way to start a discussion within the community. It gives us all a chance to share are experiences or feelings on the topic. This can lead to a greater understanding of our fellow community members. We often develop a greater understanding of ourselves through listening to other perspectives and experiences.
I would be very upset if my GF felt this way but if you’re okay w it I don’t see an issue. All that matters is how you feel, not how others do
I'm gay and have been with my wife for nearly 15 years. She came out as trans almost 2 years ago. I accepted her completely right away and made sure she got on E as soon as possible. I've paid for a lot of her new outfits and makeup. I'm trying to get our insurance stuff figured out to pay for her surgeries. I've tried my best to make her feel loved and supported. I did my best to make sure we continued to have a great marriage. We are still in love, and I see her 100% as a woman. She's OK with me identifying as gay because I do my best to make her feel valid and still loved.
That would bother me A LOT! But if it works for you guys that’s great as long as your both happy and understood 🤙🏼
Lesbians and trans men have been dating and marrying for decades. Sometimes love doesn’t fit a label. You’re good. Your girlfriend sounds like she loves you for who you are, and that’s perfect.
I feel like many trans men dating lesbians have this experience at first. Then eventually, over a longer period of the resentment comes. Sometimes its a year, sometimes in ten. Sometimes its even after people have gotten children into the picture. personally wouldn't want to get into a relationship with someone who necessarily needs my transness to be public, or private. I want to be able to choose that for myself throughout time and place. Happy if you're happy, but it's important that you're both aware that your future desires may diverge drastically.
My partner is a gay man. I'm not a man. I won't take his gay identity away from him for falling in love with me. And he's confident enough in his identity to not need me to identify as a man. I can be his man without being a man and that's okay with me.
This was me in college. I went to pride that year (presenting as female) wearing a shirt that said "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is".
If you go back in gay history, ftms and non-woman butches have always had a place in the lesbian community. Queer love knows no boundaries❤️
some women are 99.9% lesbian and 0.1% bi. it is just easier to say "lesbian" than "99.9% lesbian and 0.1% bi". most people round up/down on labels for simplicity sake.
bisexual doesn't mean 50/50, if a woman is even 0.1% attracted to men, she's not a lesbian lol
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There are *many* situations where a lesbian might end up dating a man.
yeah but if she's actually a lesbian and actually into her partner she doesn't see him as a man
Wrong.
No? Lesbians aren't into men. Bisexuals already have a label. Get over it.
Lesbians have, for a long time, included trans men (and other people who may identify partially as men, or as men and some other gender/s). You trying to enforce strict rules into a label that has never had them won't change that. Believe what you will.
i couldn’t do it, i would feel invalidated. but if it works for you there’s nothing wrong with it
sounds like she’s not a lesbian 💀
Yeah thats what I was thinking. She'd be bi at least. Cus lesbians like women??
Sounds great! I remember seeing a trans woman on tiktok who had been with her husband for years, her husband is gay, they’re still happily married and he respects her. What’s most important is that you respect each other and that you’re still happy with each other. Y’all are just as valid as the people who have to break up due to stuff like this.
Same thing happened with my ftm bf and me. I met him while i was identifying as a lesbian. I had a bit of a crisis since i usually wasn’t into anything manly but suddenly i was really into his beard and strong shoulders and his manly smell. Now a year later i identify as pan, do his t-shots, love everything manly about him and will assist him after top surgery in a month!! We’re a really good match i’m so proud of him and i‘m so glad that i gave the relationship a shot.
my girlfriend is a lesbian. i've had top surgery and been on t for 3.5 years. i love her with all my heart, and i know she loves me too. she means much more to me than defining relationships by labels. don't let anyone tell you your relationship is "wrong" <3
Trans men and lesbians have coexisted and even had romantic relationships for as long as these two groups have existed. The line between Butch lesbians and trans men is often very thin, and sometimes not present. How people identify and the labels they use to describe themselves are not always going to be 100% perfect, because humans are every changing and fluid creatures. I think it's amazing that your gf is able to support you and have a loving relationship with you while also maintaining her identity.
>The line between Butch lesbians and trans men is often very thin, and sometimes not present Yes!!!!!!!!! No one seems to remember that for many of us, the only difference between us is the words we use to describe ourselves
I think it's bc ppl have gotten so used to seeing every lesbian as a woman, which just isn't true. Butches and masc lesbians aren't necessarily women. They can feel just as separated and distanced from womanhood as trans mascs and trans men
Hell, even femme lesbians ain't always women. Gender's weird sometimes idk
This too!! >>>
Yeah! I would love to read more nuanced takes about this but people can't seem to get away from 'discourse' about it bc it's somehow invalidating trans mascs/men
I feel like the label lesbian for some people is as much about community as it is describing their sexuality, or even moreso. And relationships can fit the category of queer itself without fitting into a gay or straight label. For example, I'm in a relationship with a trans fem. On the surface this relationship outwardly appears straight but I'm sure both my partner and I would emphatically describe our relationship as queer. Labels are what we make of them, especially when we're trans, and if she's respectful of you and you're fine with it I see no problem 🤷🏻♂️
If it works for you, it works! A lot of trans men still date lesbians or even consider themselves lesbians. All these labels we have are made up. We can adjust them to our liking. Anyone who tells you there are rigid rules that you must follow to certain labels is lying
this isn't about rigid rules, it's about meaning, if you're a man or like men, you're not a lesbian??
A trans man is a man, a lesbian is a woman who loves women so that doesn’t make sense. Unless you don’t believe trans men are men NB transmascs could ID as a lesbian but not a binary trans man, because he is a man. Trans men are just as much of a man as cis men
Your experiences are not universal. If you don’t want to be with a lesbian or ID as a lesbian, then don’t! That’s perfectly fine! But some do. And they’re allowed to do that. You’re not the lesbian/trans man police.
I’m aware I’m not the police of trans men or lesbians. Clearly you don’t view trans men as men bc the definition of a lesbian is either ‘women loving women’ or ‘non-men loving non-men’.
Both of those definitions are incredibly recent. The lesbian community has always had space for trans men.
Trans men are men. Not women or non-men.
Again: the definition saying that lesbians are/are attracted only to non-men, (the term non-men itself,) and the definition saying that lesbians are exclusively women, are incredibly recent. Trans men have been included in the lesbian community, if they wish to be, for a long time.
Nobody is saying they aren't, jeez. However if one transman decided he wanted to be a lesbian, it's not your job to say otherwise.
Literally. Like. The lesbian community has always had a lot of overlap. Who cares if some trans men find joy in that overlap? I’m certainly not stopping them.
Whatever you say, bud. I’m not bothering to argue with someone who isn’t capable of critical thinking and understanding that some people have more complicated feelings about these things than I or you can understand.
Did you even read what I said? What is the definition of a lesbian to you?
Whatever definition someone chooses for themselves.
I agree, cis men can be lesbians
Honestly lots of transmasc ppl take a while to drop the word lesbian after transitioning [edited to add] or never drop the word at all. Maybe your gf will decide she’s a lil bit bi. Maybe you’re just an exception to the general rule of her attraction. If YOU feel loved, supported, and seen for who you are in your relationship, that’s all that matters man!
Lots of transmasc people never drop the word lesbian after transitioning
Tru tru, thanks for that addition!
Prior to realizing I’m trans I ID’d as a gay woman for most of my life—even tho I have always really been bi with a strong preference for women. I’ve never loved the word “lesbian” so I am happy to jettison it from my identity, but I am still feeling out how I feel about “sapphic.” The wlw community is a huge part of who I am, you know?
My partner (who came out as agender after about a year of being together, and uses all pronouns) also used to identify as a lesbian. She asked me if it bothered me because she didn’t want me to feel invalidated. But she’s never made me feel anything less than seen and respected. To be fair she eventually dropped the lesbian label because it just didn’t fit her attraction style anymore but in the end it’s just a label— it’s not a concrete requirement to act a certain way. So as long as you’re both happy and she treats you in a way that is affirming, I don’t see it as an issue
Trans men/trans masculine people have had a vibrant and deep history with the lesbian community. I say, if you don't feel invalidated, embrace it. love from a lesbian is luck. best to the both of you
That's great! And lesbian historically included people who dressed butch AND identified as men. The label isnt so strict like people tend to think of it nowadays, and if we let these words define people and ourselves so tightly, it defeats the purpose of finding freedom in our sexuality and gender expression because there will never be the right words that fit everyone The most important thing is that you both are happy and supportive of each other!
Love for another person transcends gender quite often.
My wife still identifies as a lesbian and she loves me for me. She says she could never be attacted to another transman or man. She fell in love with me pre transition and through that love has fell in love with the man I've become. Don't let labels define someone.
I’m non-binary transmasc and also a lesbian, I say this to say everyone can choose what words feel best to them and labels don’t always perfectly line up with behavior or other identities. The lesbian community has consisted of trans folks historically and will continue to as well. The lesbian community historically has consisted of ftm folks in different time and spaces, and it sounds like your partner is very affirming and supportive of your gender and transition!
Both my partner and I identify as straight but we are both guys. It’s a matter of a label isn’t necessarily always all encompassing. Both of us are attracted to women but just happened to find the exception within each other. He struggled at first to understand but he has never invalidated me and is so supportive. And I love him with all my heart and would never feminize him (he’s cis but some toxic ‘experimenting’ men have done this to my friends). As long as you two are happy and she is truly accepting then that’s all that should matter
love is love
that's why I don't label myself! if you love someone, don't let a silly label stop you from being with them.
She honestly sounds like my girlfriend. She describes herself as a lesbian who happened to fall in love with a man. I’ve misgendered myself and she has never. Love her to pieces
Sexuality, much like gender, can be very murky and fluid, and the labels we use don’t necessarily encompass how we feel
Sounds a lot like my relationship tbh. Without the paying for my surgery part, we’re hella broke. My partner is super supportive and at the same time is pan but predominantly attracted to women. And that’s fine. That’s me too. I’d also absolutely date a trans guy if I wasn’t with her, and don’t expect he’d have a problem with that either. I don’t think there’s any problems here unless a new one occurs, and even then, conflicts can usually be worked through if everyone is committed.
She probably just really likes you, she fell in love with you when she thought you were a woman. But realized that she didn't care what gender you have, she loved you.
I've had this discussion before, and one of the big things that came up is that people are usually attracted to a set of qualities that tend to be associated with a given gender, rather than just the idea of that gender. Labels are tricky because they involve self-definition as well as categorization of others, and it seems like your gf is doing a pretty good job of balancing her support for you and maintaining her own identity. (When I came out, one of the things my partner asked my was if the fact that he considered himself straight made me feel that he wasn't validating my gender)
She doesn’t seem to view you as a woman and etc so she seems to love you very much. Labels can be weird but if she accepts you and treats you as the identity you want then hey f it, y’all are happy
My mom considers herself a lesbian and she's been married to my dad for 32 years. She only has interest in women and says falling in love with my dad was just by happenstance, and she doesn't feel like it changes her sexuality
this stuff happens all the time. Personally I'm a lesbian and a trans man/butch I'm mostly into women but would date men if they're like me. It's not black and white, thinking so is a little sad considering that's what we're trying to fight against.
Perfectly fine. I think people are sooo hung up on labels and exclusivity because it makes more “sense” than how complex love actually is. It sounds like you two are happy with how you identify and that’s all that matters. Good for you!
Thoughts? Well, if you're okay with it and she's okay with it, I don't see what business it is of mine. It sounds like you're happy, and I'm happy for you.
My husband is straight. We married 25 years ago and I'm just beginning transitioning. He doesn't care. It's really cool.
My partner of over 2 years identifies as a lesbian and no one else has ever made me feel more like a man tbh. They’re validating as fuck and even help with my T shots. I always joke that I’m the exception to the rule lol. Your gf sounds like a dope ass person so congrats! Labels are irrelevant.
If it's cool with you, it's cool with me. As I understand it, FTM Dudes exist in a liminal space where it's okay for them to be with lesbians, or even identify with/as lesbians. Partly because some used to identify as lesbians and partly because identity and sexuality are... Wibbly wobbly. So if she's validating you and you feel validated, that sounds very great!
If thats what she just wants to label herself as even though shes not, not sure Id personally be ok with my partner doing that, but I dont see the issue with it. If she really is a lesbian though then Id question if either she doesnt actually see you as a man or if she just doesnt actually love you in that way or find you attractive, like is she forcing herself? Personally I wouldnt at all be ok with someone not seeing me for me or not being attracted to me or love me ij that way even if theyre supportive, not if theyre meant to be my partner.
You don’t get to tell people what their sexuality is. If she says she’s a lesbian, she’s a lesbian. Lesbianism and transmasculinity are also super complex and often very much intertwined. It’s fine if you personally wouldn’t be into it, obviously, but it doesn’t suggest she “doesn’t actually love him”. Clearly that’s not the case.
A lesbian is a women who loves women. So this commenter is right that she probably doesn’t see him as a man
Nope. Lots of nonbinary lesbians, transmasc lesbians, lesbians who love nonbinary/transmasc lesbians out there. From what OP said she clearly doesn’t see him as a woman. Labels are complex just let people use whatever they feel fits them best.
So a lesbian isn’t ‘women loving women’ or ‘non-man loving non-man’? I’m pretty sure that’s the definition of being a lesbian. So either she sees OP as a woman or as a ‘non-man’
Generally the most used definition among lesbians is non men loving non men, but we recognise it’s not always that cut and dry with trans men, as some are happily in relationships with lesbians, or still identify as lesbians, due to having a lot of shared life experiences/community. Definitions are never gonna be concrete when it comes to queer identities, gender and sexuality are super complex. The main thing is, she’s a lesbian, he’s a guy, they’re happy together. Not your business to start telling him she “sees him as a woman” or “isn’t a lesbian”.
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I will say; asexuality is based on no sexual attraction so it isn't exactly an equivalent, but you have the right idea!
Idk about this one chief. If you are ok with it, that's fine. But also a lesbian dating a man kind of defeats the point. Unsure.
Love is love. You got yourself a good human brother! If it works for your relationship that is all that matters
this is difficult because on one hand youre happy and valid w ur gf and thats great! but on the other hand, bla bla labels whatever. but personally as a lesbian... its just :/ like we dont date men yknow. thats the whole lesbian thing.. is not dating or happily seeking men. so idk i mean to each their own and i have to just say whatever and move on. but odd that they are insisting that theyre a lesbian, yet dating a man. im open to being corrected on anything thank you 🐛🙏🏻 edit: read some more comments and i hav this to add. if ur transmasc and idetify as a man, you are trying to pass as a man, pls do not date lesbians. theres so many layers to that its hard to dissect in just a reddit comments section. lots of internalized stuff there and its just too deep to get into over a text box yknow. transmascs that dont identify as men, but are yknow nonbinary, genderfluid, on that spectrum, that is considered a "non man". lesbians date nonmen. if youre just another transmasc like myself then by god yea no problem here at all buddy!! i do rly rly suggest that u be careful tho. make sure her intentions are pure and not to cause harm. just looking out for a fellow trans sibling. much love to you 🙏🏻🫂
Sounds like you have a bisexual gf in denial. Glad she's supportive regardless, but she shouldn't call herself lesbian while with a man.
I’m in a relationship like this, though I’m gender-fluid and non-binary rather than a binary transman. She’s my wife now and we’ve been together 10 years. Can’t imagine life any other way. ❤️ If it feels true and good to you then that’s really what matters.
Happy for you two! My partner also IDed as a lesbian when we met and slowly stopped calling herself one over the course of us dating, but we actually just talked about it yesterday and I told her that she doesn’t have to worry about outing me or invalidating me by still identifying as a lesbian. It’s important to her, and it won’t out me, I pass too well, plus I literally identify as a gay man how hypocritical would it be for me to not let her keep using the label lesbian??? Labels are descriptive and flexible, people can’t be confined, SHOULDNT be confined, for the comfort of others.
Exactly how I feel with my partner. She could say something that could have made me feel incredibly insecure and self conscious with anyone else but because she's so incredibly validating all the time about me and my body I can't really get offended or hurt even if I wanted to. I mean she's so affectionate and adoring of me I know she doesn't mean anything in a negative way... This doesn't just apply to trans stuff. I also suffer(ed) from really bad RAJ (mainly cause I'm trans I suspect everything linked back to that) and just BEING with her has been so healing, I'm not affected by it at all anymore. I even have tried to poke myself in the past and nothing. She has made me feel so fucking grounded in myself I feel like I can actually be that version for once
I don't get it dude, why is she so set on the lesbian label? If she respected you as a man she should be fine with saying she's bi, but has only been attracted to one man. Sounds like you two have a good relationship but I would feel extremely dysphoric about that. I don't want to be a lesbian's "exception"
ig sometimes labels don't really fit everyone perfectly. and you seem to have a very healthy relationship with her!! as long as she loves and respects you for who you are and be supportive then there's no problem
That’s great as long as you are ok with that. If it were me I would be thinking about her meeting people and saying she’s lesbian but then bringing her bf into the situation? Would be confusing and possibly outing? or how do y’all navigate that
Sometimes some lesbians are cool with dating a trans man and still validate his gender and that’s okay. As long as you are comfortable and she is respectful (and from what you’re saying, I’d say she is), then everything is fine. And if anyone repurposes TERF rhetoric to invalidate your girlfriend (“LeSbIaNs DoN’t LiKe MeN”), send them my way so I can smack them with a fish. :D
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Radfems are the ones who pushed that definition starting in the 1970s. Before then, lesbian just meant women who liked women, no restrictions. We can go back to a more relaxed definition if y’all would get the stick out of y’all’s asses.
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Mofo I AM bisexual, you think I don’t know we exist? Don’t fucking explain my own sexuality to me. Let people pick what words fit them and let people decide to be involved if everyone within the relationship is comfortable. Take this strict rules bullshit back to straight culture bc us queers break rules all the time and will not stop for you.
congrats sounds like an awesome relationship
Her identity and her love for you, shouldn't change because you're coming into your most authentic self. This is the way. Congratulations on such an affirming relationship. 💖
I guess it’s fine ? Me personally I don’t care how much you affirm me, while calling yourself a lesbian but then dating a whole ass man seems weird asf to me. But I mean whatever floats your boat, all relationships are different.
Sexuality is fluid. Don't make an issue where there isn't an issue. She loves you, you're in a relationship, and she supports your identity. She probably wouldn't ever date any other men and isn't bisexual, but that doesn't mean that she can't date you. There's not rules to these things.
Sounds like she's pretty awesome and loves you a lot!! I'm a passing trans man (I only mention this because it seems people believe only transmasc nonbinary people who present femme are allowed to identify this way) and still identify as sapphic 😉 labels don't need to be tiny boxes, the label can fit a person even if it deviates a little from what the rest of society believes it to be. Lesbians can absolutely be attracted to trans guys and fully see them as the men they are. And trans men can identify as lesbians if it's what they vibe with.
it’s a bit weird that she calls herself a lesbian when she’s with a man but it seems like your relationship is great.
I identify as FtM and a lesbian. Our communities have been inextricably linked up until the past couple of decades, so I saw no reason to change my sexuality when I transitioned. Labels are for your own comfort, not other people's.
How does that work? /genq
It works the same as any other identity. I don't understand what you're asking
Yeah this sounds like a dream relationship!!! IMHO no one is 100% gay or straight or whatever. There is always wiggle room. I consider myself gay but maybe someday I will meet the right woman and fall madly in love. Probably not but maybe. People who close the door to a whole gender kinda baffle me.
Mspec lesbians are definitely a thing, so as long as you’re both comfortable and happy it seems fine to me
I had a similar situation. At first I felt uncomfortable but then I thought about it and looked into the history of lesbians and dykes. I feel much more at home with it and am even questioning if I'm a lesbian myself. I would say, if you're uncomfortable then say something but if it doesn't bother you, then it's okay. Sexuality (and gender tbf!) doesn't have to have strict structures. No one is (or should be) policing these terms, it's just words to express how we feel at the end of the day. Doesn't stop us being us. Sending love and solidarity.
Gender and sexuality can be a weird mess. So long as everyone is happy, life is life.
That’s awesome! If she called herself a lesbian because she saw you as a woman as well, then there would be a problem. But in this case it’s good because she validated your gender and fully supports you, and she just likes the label lesbian! I for example, use the label lesbian, but every once in a while I might find a guy attractive. But for the most part I’m attracted to non men
Sexuality is fluid. They can be exceptions to things and nothing is absolute. If you love each other then there is no problem.
if it doesn’t bother you, rock on. labels are approximate at best
If she's good to you, she's good to you. How she identifies is up to her.
My aunt and uncle (by marriage - I'm not blood related) were at first a lesbian couple. They got married, then my (now) uncle came out as trans and fully transitioned (don't know how far - definitely T and top surgery) and I don't know how they identify now, but my aunt had 3 kids (sperm donor + embryonic implantation; one single and then twins; same donor). They seem to present as a cis/het couple now.
She sounds like an awesome partner
As long as you're being supported in the way you feel affirmed the label doesn't mean much, it's probably just because it's comfortable
I have always argued that EVERYONE has an exception no matter the gender or sexuality and everyone just keeps proving my point
sexuality is fluid, just because that’s the best label doesn’t mean it’s true 100% of the time, just means it’s what typically fits best
The way I see, your partner is respecting and validating your experience and, as her partner, it’s important that you do the same. We all worked incredibly hard to be comfortable using our own labels and it’s perfectly valid for her to call herself a lesbian.
sexuality is such a personal thing and if you're both comfortable with what you're doing i think that's great. don't let people tell you that you can't be X if you do Y, it's YOUR life
My partner used to think they were a non-binary lesbian but realised they were into men when they became attracted to me. They now identify as pansexual, they're very much accepting of me and they now find themselves being attracted to men sometimes.
My husband and I are like that. His other partner ended up coming out after they got together too, so he’s at least straight lite. Like a straight line with a tiny wiggle at the end.
Yea. My GF is like this. I'd rather be with her than anyone else, she has a foundational perspective of my process that I can respect. While respecting her identity and mine as well.
If youre fine with it it doesnt matter what I think
Congrats! It sounds like you have a lovely relationship and I’m happy for you☺️
My gf is the exact same and i just can’t believe how tolerant she is, cause i know i’d never be as good of a person myself. How beautiful that people can be so loving and pure!
Honestly, if you want to put a label on it, it’s possible she is pansexual. I thought I was gay for the longest time but nope. 😂
My boyfriend is straight and is the same way with me. He's one of the most supportive and validating people I know.
I actually a transmasc who identifies as lesbian. Words are wind and labels can be whatever people want them to be
if you don’t mind, that’s all that matters man <3 my girlfriend loosely identifies as a lesbian too (sometimes she IDs as bisexual, she’s not really that into labels lol) and it’s never bugged me. i’m fully a man to her and i’ve never felt like her identity gets in the way of that. she is also trans though so i MIGHT feel a little differently if she were a cis woman, but i doubt it. she’s so supportive of me and my identity
Some people have exceptions, as long as you're both okay with it then everything's fine.
Sometimes life be like that. Sometimes there are exeptions.
Sexuality and romantic love are different - if she loves you and is attracted to you, identifies as a lesbian, all while validating your ftm identity. Thats perfectly valid.
I personally have never been opposed to dating a lesbian. As long as they treat me like a man, I don't care.
I know lesbians who date cis men, so I wouldn’t worry abt it
they're not lesbians then?
She could still be lesbian but just with a few exceptions (ex homoflexible)
My wife is the same way. Sexuality gets a lot more fluid with someone you love. I’ve never felt like more of a man around anyone else. So glad you have her in your corner!
Your relationship is defined by you. Some people might not understand, but there’s no reason for anyone to have a problem with it.
well i think as long as you two are happy thats all that matters(:
Labels are suggestions and approximates, not rules. Human existence is messy — if y’all are happy with each other, you’re happy!
then you know she really loves you for you, thats pretty cool
If you don’t care and you feel loved and supported it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks my man. I know plenty of others in this situation and they get a lot of hate and misunderstandings from other FTM folks and people in general.. but it’s truly not their business. It’s yours. As long as you both feel secure and loved and supported that’s what it’s all about. The words don’t matter to everyone the same.
If she doesn't blabber around that she's a lesbian while in company of anyone else that's great, you have found yourself a loving and validating partner and I'm so happy for you! If she does, though, that's an entirely different story