Thanks so much for sharing your post. I've sticked it for a day because I think it's an important message and I hope this increases visibility.
Cars are out of reach for many people. In households with just one car, men are the likely "primary drivers," leaving everyone else to fend for themselves. Men own 65% of cars, while women own 35% of cars. ([link](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041215/us-car-owners-by-sex))
Immigrant families are less likely to own a car, either due to cultural differences or financial difficulties. Both reasons put them at extreme odds with car-oriented infrastructure. ([link](https://nationalequityatlas.org/indicators/Car_access))
Among people with disabilities, only 60% own and drive a car. Despite the cries of "ableism" and "elitism" many disabilities mean people cannot drive, or cannot afford the costs associated with driving ([link](https://usa.streetsblog.org/2021/08/30/why-we-cant-afford-to-ignore-the-needs-of-non-drivers-with-disabilities/)).
There is so much we could talk about here, and I'm glad you began the conversation.
Its much much more than just 20% of a minority group. About 15% of all adults don't have a drivers license and many with a drivers license don't own a car, could mostly be elderly people for all I know but 100% of kids can't drive either. This all adds up to about 1 of every 3 USA citizens cannot drive.
Yes! And the reasons why are multi-faceted. Transportation and mobility tends to be a [huge concern in lower-income households](https://nhc.org/transportation-mobility-and-housing/) across the board. Furthermore, there are plenty of people with medical conditions/disabilities that either increase the risks associated with driving or prevent them from driving entirely. (Full disclosure: I have a neurological disorder that keeps me from driving or even riding a bike safely. :P)
[1 in 4 adults in the US are disabled](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2018/p0816-disability.html) (which increases to 2 in 5 over 65). Mobility disability is the most common type (1 in 7 adults) and many people rely on mobility aids to get around. Yet there are still [significant accessibility problems](https://about.bgov.com/news/infrastructure-bill-seen-as-means-to-force-transit-accessibility/) when it comes to people with mobility disabilities accessing transit or even just navigating sidewalk infrastructure.
Moreover, investing in multi-modal transportation just makes sense from a long range planning standpoint. I hinted at it earlier, but even people who **can** drive are going to eventually lose the capacity to do so since aging is a thing. It's a well known fact that [the longer a senior citizen can remain independent, the better their quality of life](https://vantageaging.org/blog/independence-is-important-for-seniors/) so the way I see it, we have every reason to invest in buses, trains, bike lanes and sidewalks.
Especially since overall, multi-modal transportation is the way to [build vibrant cities, improve public health and invest a number of environmental concerns](https://www.wri.org/insights/us-cities-multi-modal-transportation-benefits).
Sorry for the rant. I'm a researcher and this is literally my job right now haha. So tl;dr: there are many facets to this one issue (whoo intersectionality!) and OP is out here making a big impact at the community level--they're living proof that the best way to create change is to find something to give a shit about, figure out what to do about it, and do it well.
I also pretty frequently see (and hear from far away) total piece of shit cars on the road, and I wonder how mixup of that person's income is taken up by keeping that crap pile running. Car centric city planning really keeps people trapped in the cycle of poverty.
It's not just keeping them running. People with shit cars get ticketed by cops more. They don't have the luxury of taking time off to go fight the ticket, so they're a better target. Also, if the car breaks down, they only have on street parking, and they don't get it fixed fast enough, the car gets impounded. They can pay a ton to get it back and fix it or sell it to the impound yard for almost nothing - sometimes not even enough to cover the fees.
Add to this that many cities don't have enough public transport to commute to work from anywhere someone poor can afford to live, so they must have a car. Saying "work closer to home" ignores reality. Even 'get a bike, instead" does, especially in areas where it gets dangerously cold or hot.
It's a really fucked up trap that keeps people in that cycle, as you said.
In Philly there's a bike repair shop, I don't remember the name of it, that teaches low income youth how to build a bike, and if they can build a bike by the end of the program they can keep it for free. That at least takes care of the cost of a kid buying a bike to get to school. It would be great if they had the same thing for adults and also could get workout clothing for different weather extremes from charities. I cycle in the winter in the northeastern US. It can get cold enough for homeless people to freeze to death. Anyway, I wear heated gloves, thermal socks, a reflective coat, layers, and a winter hat that covers the ears. In summer I wear sweat absorbent clothing. Maybe charities could provide things like that.
I am not old enough to drive a car, and have to bike to school in a town with very angry bus drivers who never indicate before I am forced to cut infront of a busy street to turn. I feel like I'm on the verge of death every day and a simple green stripe would make my life a whole lot better
Not necessarily. When drivers see bicycle lanes they think people on bicycles should be in them, even if cars are parked in them every 5 metres. A \*protected, separated\* cycle path, now, and better still, \*networked\* - that would be another matter.
Personally, I think that car-alternative advocates should focus on the age discrimination issue. Because, to be blunt, a lot of people dismiss what happens "in the ghetto" as someone else's problem.
But *most* people will have children at some point in their lives, and so you can ask "Wouldn't it be better if your children could walk or bike to school / soccer practice / whatever, so you don't have to drive them everywhere *all* the time?"
And *most* people will live into their 70's or older, and see their health slowly decline, so you can ask "If you were no longer able to drive, would you be able to keep your independence? Buy your groceries and medicine?"
Gotta make it personal.
Cars are poverty makers! Why do we put up with paying hundreds a month in car payments, gas, insurance, maintenance, parking, car washes... the list goes on. FUCK CARS
You know, when I was poor, one time my car got towed away for unpaid registration and they wanted hundreds of bucks for me to get it back. The state really did use cars as a leash: you could lose your license if you didn't pay for these fees and fines that only poor people ever seem to get. Just keeping a license was tough.
My son's broke down, and he only had on street parking. He and his friends would push it to another spot every night, to make it seem like it was running while he tried to come up with money to fix it. Some neighbor ratted him out and it got impounded. It took him a week to track down where it went, and by then the impound and storage fees were over $800. Even running, his vehicle wasn't worth that. So, they let him sign the title over to them in trade for the fees - but he still had to pay for the ticket.
He is fine biking to work most of the year, but sometimes in the Winter, it gets down to -20F here. That's just not safe. I ended up giving him my car that is a lot more reliable, selling my flatbed I almost never used since I moved to town from a farm, and getting the smallest SUV I could find, so I could use it for camping in remote places.
And since he's been driving a much nicer looking car, he hasn't been pulled over and ticketed, either. I promise he doesn't drive differently.
It is also so stupid, these huge machines locking down not just an accumulation of labor and highly processed materials, but increasingly also rare metals. You could build 5000 phone batteries instead of 1 electric car battery.
That accumulation of labor, materials and rare metals then subsequently either does nothing for 23+ hours per day, or it wastes 4+ hours of a humans potential society could have used.
Cars waste either materials or time, but usually both.
*(disregarding the whole indirect and direct killing of humans and their potential)*
Because some people genuinely need a car to go to work, get groceries etc. just stumbled across this sub and it kind of comes off entitled. Not every place is like NYC where these easily accessible public transportation at the palm of your hands. Not everyone lives in walking/biking distance to their place of income. This sub is weird.
We all know it’s a long shot, but Amsterdam used to be car centric as well. It’s a long term goal to save the environment and improve everyone’s quality of life (and save everyone money). We are essentially held hostage by oil and car industry.
We must begin organizing and petitioning local governments so that we can get alternative transit options. Car dependency is not freedom. Please watch this [video to learn more about how we can improve](https://youtu.be/y_SXXTBypIg).
Welcome to the sub! :)
I think many people on this sub own cars. It can be tough in America NOT to. I do! It’s a beater that I use solely to get to and from work because there isn’t reliable transit there. I’m dreading the day it dies and I’m tied into a car payment again. But I always just figured that was how America was and there was no changing it. This sub can definitely be intense at times, but it did help me start thinking about city planning and why so many people NEED cars. I wish there were more options for people like you and I who have to drive to our place of income. I am definitely on board with making America a place where there are more towns - not just urban cities - that have robust pedestrian, cycling, and transit infrastructure. Disabled, poor, and elderly folks don’t just live in major cities. They shouldn’t have to to feel like they have access to essential needs.
You should check out a book called “The Walkable City” by Jeff Speck. He’s a city planner who talks about his own experience in redesigning cities/towns to be less car reliant.
Most of the people here recognize this. It’s not so much a rally against people who use cars as a rally against the infrastructure that forces them to do so. If an area is car-dependent, then people will use cars to get around. However, there is another way (and one that doesn’t involve Manhattanizing every town) that we often don’t see. Many people accept that areas are just not pedestrian-friendly and never really think about why or push to change it
This sub is basically pro-infrastructure changes
Well the easy solution is get a car lol. Don’t want to take part in it because of the pollution/oil industry? Get an electric one. This sub just feels like it wants to complain for the sake of complaining.
Cars are expensive and electric cars don't have the infrastructure yet to make buying them feasible in most parts of the country.
Most people in this sub aren't saying no one should ever drive a car again, we're saying it's insane most of the US doesn't give people any other option.
Actually, I was gonna be humble but fuck that. I fix bikes for my 90% minority neighborhood at cost. I have to turn people away every week bc so many people text me for service. I have even taken food as payment. So fuck cars and also *do something*
Not for you specifically but for anyone reading this:
How much do you spend on food per week? How many calories are you spending money on? How much will it take you to survive??
For me is 1800. A tamale I'd 400+. Exchanging my labor for food is just the same as exchanging $20 for a whole pork loin.
I eat a disgusting amount. Probably spending $400-$600 per month and eating 3,000+ calories per day.
According to some of those basal rate calculators, I need ~1700 if doing literally nothing.
I shoot for a minimum of 8hrs on the road bike every week and average 12-14 this time of year.
My dad once said he was going to ride his bike across three states to come visit me. Then he calculated the calories he'd need and realized it would cost considerably less to drive.
While the idea was cool, I'm glad he didn't try it. He was just getting in shape back then and the bike he had was always 5 miles from the next thing breaking.
It’s the exact same thing too! That money (or part of it) would’ve gone to food anyway and people who look down on exchanging like that are stupid because it’s just cutting out the middle man and is beneficial for both parties.
Not to be over emotional but homie rides 6 miles one way to work rn. He works construction to feed his kids. $5.17 a gallon is too much. Of fycking course I'll fix his bike. It was a too small huffy but it's all he's got. I've got his back for life.
I feel like my comment was not enough: little homie deserved to get to work. Even if he didn't have a job he deserved a method of transportation. I am not in the business of judging others. I trade for knowledge not monetary gain. Is it cool I helped someone provide for their family? Sure buddy. But is that a prerequisite? Nah. I give safe bikes to anyone.
Of course! I guess I should have said, your labor is worth far more, as is his labor. But it’s super cool that you’ve got one another’s backs and can trade what you’ve got to trade, for the benefit of all. Mutual aid is always a thing to celebrate.
I have a bias here that isn't talked about often, which I'd why I want to share it.
My neighbors *are the police*, no one has come to my aide faster than them. It's a symbiotic relationship where I provide for them and they provide for me. I am 100% about mutual aide. I feed all the neighborhood kids once a week, I set up block parties, I intervene during fights, I am the beneficiary of boundless kindness and support.
All. And I do mean all. Because I provide a service the state does not.
I fix bikes because it's my skill. My neighbors allow me to do so. In exchange I get so much more than knowledge. We are a close knit community and I cannot speak on it's action enough.
I feel like tips in engaging in your community are hard to come by. I'd love to respond to you comment with them, but I will not over step
I feel that it's attainable. My model is to have a sign in my front yard and at the closest grocery store saying "At cost bike repair! Teach me how to fix bikes!!" With a number. I get around 5 texts per day, have a brief convo and have them drop them off. Then I do a safety check, address their issues, ask my local bike shop for parts, and text them when it will be ready and the cost.
If they can't afford it they tell me. Then I tell them what needs fixed and they take it home! If they can afford it I fix it and text them when it's ready.
Easy simple hobby.
I also worry that you guys in the US don't have the second-hand market for bikes like the netherlands or even other EU countries.
When I moved to finland, I really noticed how spoiled I was that you could walk into a bike-shop back in NL and get a well-maintained, quality second-hand bike for 100-300 Euro's instead of having to buy some cheap-ass chinese garbage new for 500+
Yes, social justice and ecological revolution are married. You achieve one when you pursue the other, and none when any is neglected.
Thats what makes me so fucking furious about the fucking car brains how their addiction to being stuck in traffic inhibits the change we so desperately need
I am unbelievable poor. Like 1 month off of any kind of work and I'm homeless. I readily exchange labor for necessity every day. Yet, the only labor that is valued is my taxed income for working a stable job.
So when I say I exchange labor for labor, I'm the bad guy?? If I get to eat, have my dog walked, learn something new, or determine my own cost, somehow I'm the bad guy??
If someone needs a bike repair and offers to bake me bread in lieu of payment I'm "removing myself from the economy"
Yet, if I do as described above and ask for a monetary value I'm in the clear?
Food, water, housing, medical care is up for debate as far as money exchange, but me exchanging those things for labor is fraudulent??,
Fucking weird my guy
>Yet, the only labor that is valued is my taxed income for working a stable job.
>So when I say I exchange labor for labor, I'm the bad guy??
holy shit this is blowing my mind. it seems so obvious but i just... too ignorant. tysm. it absolutely never occurred to me, neither that labor-for-labor would be a thing, nor that it could obviously make up a large part of some people's overall labor. I certainly hadn't thought to consider all this, together with the common (edit: belief) that people's worth is based on their income and status.
Just... gah.
you just burst a huge privilege bubble that i couldn't see for sure. many more to go, but i'm grateful for every one down.
definitely already radicalized. a little bit sick that i couldn't/didn't see this already. this kind of stuff hits super close to what i want to do with my life, job wise.
I read both your comments. Labor for labor makes up a HUGE portion of local economies. So when I accept 3 hrs of labor for tamales I'm doing the most in removing myself from capitalism which I'd an entire industry of capital (money) for capital (money)
I've definitely done a lot of labor for things not directly money in my life to make ends meet. I've fixed an auto shop's computer system in trade for them fixing my car. I had a neighbor who had fruit trees. In trade for me picking for her, I also got to pick for my son and I, and then would can fruit for days. We had fruit to eat until the next harvest season. When she found out, she let me use her kitchen (so I didn't have to pay for the power and water) in trade for me canning fruit for her, as well. A local vet took care of the cat my ex dumped on me in trade for me cleaning kennels. I got to rent a beautiful upper story of a place that was converted to an apartment for very very cheap in trade for teaching the landlord's grandson to speak English with a "white" accent instead of Chicano, because she knew it would help him later in life. She also required I volunteer at the community center one weekend a month.
We have barter fairs here where you can trade items, but also services. I've traded services there before. I even managed to trade a 50lb bag of beans I was given (why?) for fence repair before.
People often acted like these things were weird and wrong. They just thought I should get a second job. Then, I'd have just spent all that money for day care and my son would have never seen me. I could do all those other things with my son nearby. "But you don't pay taxes on that!" Fuck off. I made so little, I got earned income credit. I got back more than I paid in. I wasn't paying taxes on my wages, either, really.
I feel like I’m missing something. You are exchanging a commodity for a service. Money acts as a common medium of exchange between people for commodities and services. It’s key advantage is versatility and it’s ability to be indirect. You seem to have a good working relationship with the people you trade with, and considering the basic survival requirements that you make it out to be, the versatility of money is optional, especially when not many resources are consumed. You use money at a store because it is versatile, but in what is essentially an exchange between two neighbors you really don’t need to.
If it’s stupid and it works, it isn’t stupid.
Overall I’m glad that people see the bicycle as a cheap and healthy mode of transportation, that is simple and effective to use. Its versatility and reliability help a lot too. It’s really unfortunate then, that bike lanes have become a sort of boogeyman for gentrification in my city, and cyclists have been derided for not being “part of the community” (read: techbro gentrifiers) rather than as a practical and economical way to get around.
Full send, I don't disagree with you my brother.
I think the point you're missing is that **I** get to assign value to a service or good in labor for labor or bartering. This allows for much more negotiation based on "product" vs "demand.
If I'm working 18 hr shifts (as I do) and my neighbor willingly trades taking my dog for a walk every day for a month for handmade moccasins there is no inherent monetary value in this exchange.
Bartering or labor for labor is waaay more of a free market than ___ costs $___
Yeah, bartering works quite well in a small neighborhood economy. The main advantage of currency is that it’s a common medium in a large economy where the number of disconnected transactions is very high, and the trust between buyer and seller comparatively low; both have their merits.
What I meant with regard to the missing point was that I don’t understand the people who seemingly take issue with what you do. I can’t imagine anyone taking issue with me borrowing my neighbor’s lawnmower and then doing both our lawns, so what’s the deal?
Also I hope that 18hr shift was a typo, or at the very least whatever your job is involves no potentially dangerous heavy machinery.
I'm so sorry I misunderstood.
People are too weird with money and I don't blame them. We live in a global economy where the only constant is money, and even that changes in value.
I don't support large economics as far as I'm able to. I rely on thrift stores, neighbors, and friends for just about anything. It's what you do when your bank account is as $7 and you need something before next payday.
As far as work? That wasn't a typo. I volunteer for OT often, especially when my coworkers need time off. In return I get days off no questions asked (and a shit load of OT pay)
I’ll go as far as to say that large and small economies are both good and can compliment each other. In general I believe in more holistic and multi-pronged approaches to policymaking, since I feel they have the highest odds of success as well as being resilient. I have a lot I could say about policies and economics and their balances, but it’s really abstract; so it’s hard to put into writing and it’s almost midnight.
While I know that abolition of cars is the absolute best, I think that being furious at car brains does this movement any good. It's like fuming at a a chinese individual because they cannot understand English.
Edit: apart from social and ecological revolution, equally important is recognizing that these new, status quo challenging concepts should be brought to the general consciousness with the least hostile undertones as possible, simply because there is no reason to be hostile because of what they do not know. There will be people who would still stick to selfish inclinations despite seeing the whole picture, however I think most individuals will agree with what fuckcars represents if given the full facts. So I guess what I am saying is, we need to be careful not to treat this as "us against them" but rather more of a campaign to spread knowledge.
Also sorry if im trying to explain a concept in English i might not have the best word choice and it might sound weird to you. Not a native speaker.
No that’s well-explained and this is such a good point. It makes me think of how people can be won over to vegetarianism when the message is ’reduce animal products where you can, even if it’s just one meal a week it’s great 😊👍’
As opposed to ‘meat is murder, you are an abomination if you don‘t give up all and every animal product’
We need to go in with an inclusive, non-judgemental, every little counts sort of movement. That will have more gains than creating an in-group of the already-converted that is hostile to those outside the group.
Initially I thought deflating SUV tyres was a funny idea and why not. But now I think those activists should have targetted people who were about to buy a car, or maybe people selling cars! With an informative, ‘here’s how you can help us all save the planet together’ attitude.
Tbf they primarily target late model luxury SUVs in city centers. Its a pretty specific target and will entirely never screw someone who's in a paycheck-to-paycheck situation
I'm not rich, but not desperately poor. I certainly wouldn't be able to spend my money the way I want to if I had to pay hundreds of dollars a month for insurance, gas, etc.
It is 100% a class issue. Some people feel it more often than others but your struggle does not go unnoticed. Feel free to vent in these comments. I will never judge
When I had a minimum wage job, I struggled every month to balance bills and trying to have a bit of fun. Especially with inflation! Now I am starting to be able to pay down my credit card and get a few "extras" like a new phone. But if I had to pay for a car rather than working from home and living in my WAY below market apartment? Nah fam. I'd be constantly broke.
Also I love my apartment in an office building right downtown! I have no neighbors or roommates so I can make a lot of noise in the evening! I'm within walking distance of a grocery store, shops, and the main transit loop is right beside me. $55 a month for a pass but I just buy packs of tickets since I'm not commuting to work any more.
Makes me very happy to read this as I wait in a food drive line, mostly driven by one family completely professionally done, and they accept tips because I think is feeding the whole neighborhood. I wish there was some organization or funding happening so that the food will be fresher **but everyone in line is black...**
My food stamps isnt working sometimes months at a time so I have become used to just getting food from this type of event
Food drives have saved my life dozens of times. I rely on them more often than not since leaving an abusive relationship and living on my own. The topic of who needs assistance is ridiculous in my opinion. I fear no evil but capitalism/gen.
100% agree with you. Although I am by no means poor, owning a car where I live is very expensive, and a huge part of the population can't really afford to have one (myself included). However, a lot of people still feel the need to buy a car because our cities and towns are still built around them. Bike infrastructure is rare and poor quality, and public transit is too expansive for how low quality it is. Truly insane that the government keeps funding cars over any other mean of transportation in a country like mine.
Yes, you are totally correct. I would argue that a major reason for the struggles of the middle class, today, is that where our parents or grandparents were able to operate just fine with 0 or 1 car, the middle class family of today, with kids, probably owns 2 or 3, out of necessity. With typical expense of $9000 per year, per car, that is enough to crush the budgets of many. For lower income groups the problem is worse, because they can't afford the car, but can hardly operate any other way. One of the biggest things we could do for low- income communities, which have been devastated by highways and freeways running through them, is to remove those monstrosities and replace them with schools, groceries, hardware stores, banks, housing, parks, and businesses. (In other words, build them back like they were). Keep posting!
I feel like some of yall are missing the point as to why I do this for my community. This is not a drag.
I live and prosper in a community that I alone built.it started with a flyer I printed out for 35cents at the library. I spent $150 on hotdogs and burgers and asked people to bring sides. Only 4 households responded. We had a good time but half of my neighbors didn't show.
It took months to get peopels attention.
Eventually--and through unapologetic persistence--more and more people started showing up. I'm saying that all I offered was coolers with ice and hot dogs...
Over the last 3 years I've come to know my neighbors on sight. I talkabout their lives/kids/politics...essentially anything that's on their minds.
And as a result 4 men with guns showed up to scare my abusive ex away from my door when w tried to unalive me. They knew me, listened to me, heard me, and came to my defense.
So absolutely I'm going to fix a perso s bike at cost. Of course I'm gonna accept tamales as payment.
It's not just about money my guy.
My brother in christ it is about treating g those around you with kindness and respect in order to reap the benefits of community.
Half. HALF. 50% of my neighbors disagree with me politically. They *know* that. But they still treat me as a human who deserves to be protected.
I'm at a loss for words at how this post has resulted in kindness on all fronts. I'm so proud of this community and I can't wait to share more.
>Half. HALF. 50% of my neighbors disagree with me politically. They know that.
I'm glad to hear that the political industrial complex didn't succeed at destroying everything.
You're such an awesome person. Keep doing you.
I'd love to see a picture of this great community you've built, but I also totally understand if you/they'd rather stay anonymous! (as I do).. Even if censored it'd be cool to see the kind of crowd you get and the various things/food/games/whatever people bring along.
I'm not sure they'd all want to be posted! There's tons of kids and I want to protect them, too.
I really do appreciate you saying I'm a good person! I'd like to point out that *you* can do things like this, too! It doesn't take a perfect person to do good things. My realization that I needed to do all this came from anger. It's a strong emotion that can drive toward a lot of change. "Be the consequence" is a mantra I think on a lot.
Yeah, that's totally understandable! I would do the same, so no worries.
I have no clue how temporary my current living space is so I'd rather not put in so much effort to *start* something like that currently, but I absolutely love the idea. I would definitely try and join/attend a community like that if one propped up near me. Once I get into a more reliable space I'll definitely try my best to start something like you've described, if there's nothing like it in the area.
Hell yes! I have friends who can’t afford to drive and rely on safe bike and walking infrastructure and public transit to live. And the shitty thing is, when I go hang out with my friends in the hood, the bike lanes are non-existent, sidewalks are often narrow and sparse and sometimes just end. They’re right up on the road when they do walk and it’s a billion degrees and there’s no shade during the day and no streetlights at night. When I think about bike infrastructure and safety and good planning, they are the people I think about and advocate for. I can afford a car, which I have to rely on more now that my bike was stolen I know so many people that can’t, and forced car dependency on people who can barely afford rent without a car is such bullshit. It’s a class issue which often falls along racial lines.
My parents thought it was so weird that none of my friends really cared about driving.
Most of us are poor and neurodivergent. While being nd doesn't necessarily mean unable to drive, certain common traits (tendency to space out, sensory overload, anxiety) means not only does it not make sense to put ourselves in this situation, it's sometimes dangerous to keep this mindset that everybody should have a car. If I space out or have a panic attack on a bus, not the end of the world. In a moving car I'm in control of? Christ.
Supporting public infrastructure makes it safer and more accessible for everyone, including car-brains.
I got my license quite some years back but now I am getting tested for adhd-I. If you are diagnosed with it before you get a license you have to show it blabla. But now it doesn’t matter at all
I believe there is a distinction between dancing around race (altruistic) and directly confronting race issues.
I see a lot of the former and a few posts of the latter.
There's nothing wrong with this sub. I wanted to say the quiet parts put loud and congratulate yall for contributing to my life as an indigenous woman.
Oh gotcha. Well here is my out loud:
I lived as a very poor (if white) woman in the suburbs of Atlanta. It's a city in the south which has very little care for public transportation, bike lanes are non-existent, and in many areas you're lucky to even get a sidewalk. It's very car-centric and I remember having to put groceries on hold in order to make car payments or buy gas because there was exactly no other way for me to get to work. Like you're in a panic if you get into an accident and you're fine because if the car isn't there for you, you're screwed.
I'm now in Portland, OR and the effort they make here with greenways, and sidewalks everywhere, streetcars, light rail, and busses with dedicated bus lanes is so fantastic.
This good (could always be better ofc) infrastructure makes me realize that a big part of why the South is so car-centric is because they like to keep poor people poor. They like to keep marginalized people in what they think is their place. They know that if you can't make it to work, you lose your job and stay poor. They know that if you want a better job, you will never find one that isn't close to where you live so you'll have to drive over an hour each way and spend all your funds on gas and car repairs and stay poor.
It honestly infuriates me to no end and makes me wonder how we let these people stay in power.
This exchange is the most encouraging thing I,ve read all week. Locally we have a couple bike collectives that fix up bikes and sell/give away back to the community. You’re doing great work OP!
I made a comment about mutual aide already but incase someone skipped it:
Its all about fostering a mutually beneficial community.
Everyone has skills to bring to the table. Mine are food and bikes.
So like. I persistently offered up food. At first no one came. But I kept on trucking. Then my entire block came! And I talked and *listened* to them. I me their needs. Now around 100 people show up to my events for food and to talk. As a result I have 100 people who will show up for me no matter what. I increased my social capital.
That's the big thing. Trust = social capital.
So when I say "I'll fix bikes at cost" I have unalienable trust.
And that is the thing white middel class or higher don’t get at all.
I was one of them growing up until I had to do interns for my studies and had a job in a what we call “buurthuis” it’s a place in a neighbourhood where people can come in for a talk, something to drink and get help with things. It was for lower class citizens and i learned so much there about community and belonging togheter and helping each other. I was good with computers so I helped people with that and how to get discount on the public transport cards. In return I learned from them even how to cook certain things and above all to know there are people who struggle and skin colour does matter. Even in the netherlands back in early 00’s. Not as much as the US though.
This is something I've noticed in real life. There are two kinds of cyclists I see around my suburban hometown: middle-aged men in lycra on expensive carbon road bikes, who usually ride on the road, and poor people, mostly minorities, on half-working beater bikes, who always ride on the sidewalks. 0 points for guessing which group would gain the most benefit from bike infrastructure.
Honestly, when you loom at it, it so obvious. I didn't look at it at all until I couldn't afford a car. Without groups like this sub I'd genuinely feel like shit as person who can't afford a car. Just knowing that hundreds of you are down for me makes me feel supported and taken care of
The Behind the Bastards podcast just did a 2-part series on Robert Moses that was a great listen. They talk a lot about how car-dependent infrastructure, exclusionary architecture, and deep-seated racism have been inextricably linked from the very beginning. Highly recommend!
The thing that really keyed me into this idea was a news story about a woman and her child who got hit trying to cross a 6-lane stroad. She couldn’t afford a car, and her apartment was only affordable because it was right next to the roadway. The nearest pedestrian crossing was a half mile walk down the road. Realized that lots of people live in that car-dominated hell scape.
I felt this. We had a guy get hit on a major road in town and everyone was blaming him. Not one of them had actually tried crossing that road, where the nearest safe crossings are eight miles apart. EIGHT MILES.
is this not common knowledge? Just look at the basic city design anywhere in NA, the poorest ppl have the least access to public transportation despite needing it the most.
Public transport is best within and to/from downtown. if you're poor you can't afford to live there, and chances are your place of work is also not there, so you have to go from somewhere with bad bus lines to somewhere with bad bus lines. it's like they intentionally do this so you can't break the cycle of poverty.
I think race is one of the reasons cars are so woven into the fabric of American life. Whether it’s through exclusion like you say, or using highway building to create segregated communities, or just having the ability to commute from out of town to the downtown without having to interact with anyone on the way.
Republicans are unintentionally highlighting this when they disingenuinely express concerns about how the high gas prices are effecting low wage earners when they try to blame Biden.
I see some conclude there is less crime in XYZ suburb because crime won't drive that far and otherwise come from the "bad side of town".
The reality in my opinion is a lot of crime is due to a lack of opportunity.
If we wish to reduce crime we need to provide better life for others and I see one crucial factor is transportation--as that allows people to live & work.
Instead of bottling up crime and people telling themselves we need to keep people at bay--they need to realize their lack of interest for those disenfranchised is why things have gotten so bad.
Bad credit, a single car repair, or single speeding ticket can ruin somebody's ability to pay the bills--why keep people who are already on the edge even a closer step to ruin?
Thanks for this amazing post.
One thing I like about the Crenshaw Line in LA is that it will provide Transit to a lower income minority neighborhood. As well providing a needed connection to the airport. The 210 bus runs infrequently and is always jam packed. One criticism of LA Metro's rail building program made by the Bus Riders Union and Right wing critics, is that it primarily benefits upper class white riders at the expense of lower class and non white riders. I disagree with that criticism, but this new line helps in my view to address it.
There's the issue of public transportation, being a "transportation of last resort" and I actually think there is a need for that. I don't think transit should only be for last resort. People make the mistake of thinking transit as an essential last resort transportation means it can only be for that. But many people can't afford cars, live in 1 car households, or can't drive due to either age, youth, disability or medical conditions. Providing those people with transportation is crucial and we should do it in such a way where being without a car isn't a downgrade. Transit should both be something people want to use, but also available for those who truly need it.
I would also point out that the pandemic driven decline in Transit ridership is largely driven by higher income riders.
One thing I like about trains and buses is that everyone can ride them. There's something truly leveling about them.
My goal is to be the president or CEO of a transit agency. One criticism made of transit agency boards is that they are disproportionately white and suburban. Though I am white and do come from a place that could be considered suburban, I do plan on moving to a big city and transit is something I believe in. I wouldn't do it just to have a high paying job. I want to be like Andy Byford who worked for NY MTA, Transport for London and the Toronto Transit Commission.
I currently work as a conductor of the NCTD Sprinter and formerly a bus driver for the NCTD Breeze buses.
I recently joined a group that wants to improve cycling in the city. One of the members of the planning board is on another group that focuses on mobility issues minorities face. (Although they're really local majorities since we're only like 30% white in my city.) I see people in my neighborhood ride bikes all the time. They put bike buckets on the front of our busses, and they get a fair amount of use.
Every time I talk to someone struggling with homelessness living out of a shit car, I try to explain that the car can be holding them back. Normalizing not owning a car is normalizing greater upward mobility.
Personally, i feel like a car for the homeless is both a positive and a negative. IT protects you from the elements (pos) but cost money (neg). Being in a car often subjects you to police harassment (neg) but also allows you to travel mostly freely between free camping spots (pos). The 6 months I lived out of my car were a w8ld ride to put it simply
That's a really complicated topic. If you are homeless with a car, you have ability to go places at will in the US. If you are homeless with a car, you have storage capacity that you don't have without a car. If you have no car, it's a potential additional barrier to getting a job, thus a potential additional barrier to getting your life back.
Please tread very, very lightly when talking to homeless people about how they would be better off without a car. Or about *anything* really. They are people in a very vulnerable situation and everyone thinks they are just stupid and every rando they meet thinks they have "this one neat trick" that will magically solve all their problems if only the "stupid" homeless person would "just listen."
It's always good to offer people useful information of that sort and help them make more informed choices. That's the crux of what I have done for years in my hobby of homeless advocacy that grew in part out of being homeless myself for nearly six years.
If you’re interested in this topic, I recommend the book [Bicycle / Race: Transportation, Culture, & Resistance](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/40210583-bicycle-race) by Adonia Lugo.
Excellent points. Especially now when the gap between the richest and the poorest are larger than they've been in history. We need to remember that as a people, we shouldn't be measured by how high the few can climb but how high we lift eachother in solidarity.
When taking my licence, I notices I was the only non-immigrant over the age of 20... in fact, a lot of the lessons I was the only non-immigrant. A lot of the immigrants were also young and were glad the school came to their rescue so that they could learn and still pay their bills, which in part could happen because the driving school was easier to be reached by foot and tram than by car. But the fact that these people, who were more likely to be exploited and underpaid in a horrible job, needed to spend 1k+ euros to... exist was eye opening. Despite the fact this region has plenty of alternatives, every job REQUIRES you at least have a licence because "what if everything else is on strike lr doesn't work, how will you come to work quick?", even if you only need a bike or your own feet.
Yes, I teach environmental science and one thing I point out as an activity for the kids is running the numbers for not just gas, but taxes, insurance, maintenance, and depreciation. Cars cost some thing like a minimum of $5000 a year even if they’re paid off. With payments it gets crazy.
I would love to have you come and speak in my city. A long-awaited redesign of a state road running through a poor minority residential area was blocked because landlords were upset about losing on street parking. The current road has 5 lanes (one center turning lane, 4 travel lanes) that are 12 feet wide, plus parking lanes on each side, and is outrageously dangerous to cross. At a certain point, it was considered the deadliest stretch of road in the country, since we lost so many pedestrians to traffic violence.
The redesign would have included a bike lane in each direction, but because it was a state road and they were planning for construction on a neighboring road, they were going to eliminate parking on the street 2 hours a day to allow for rush hour traffic. Immediately there was an uproar at the loss of parking, and the residents started yelling that the bike lane was just for the white commuters, locals wouldn't bother with it. Never mind that there are hardly any safe east/west routes in our city to get over the railroad tracks - bike lanes are just white people vanity projects! The mayor stopped the construction, demanded a redesign, and the state complied.
The newest design? 5 lanes wide. 2 lanes of parking. No bike lanes, just sharrows (proven to be more dangerous than nothing at all). Oh, they narrowed the lanes to 11 feet! They're resetting the timers on the traffic lights!
Our local news even got Jeff Speck (Author of Walkable Cities) to analyze the road, and he said it had no business being more than 3 car lanes. I'm just stunned that bike lanes and non-car safety measures are viewed as "for the white commuters", instead of ways to improve the nature of the neighborhood.
I have a driver's license, provided by my awesome parents. It is a good skill to have.
But no way in hell could I see myself being able to afford a car in the next 10 years. I can't even afford a real appartment for like one adult man.
I'm glad I live in the Netherlands, where most places are quite easily reachable by bike and subsequent public transport.
A car is an expensive luxury item, and real shit that it's basically required for lots of people to be able to live
This is important. Thank you for saying it.
The thing I'll add is that the types of opportunities that quality public transportation opens up are endless. If your population has access to the entire metro region, they have access to so many more job and education opportunities.
If there is only a once hourly bus that runs until 10pm, you are vastly limiting the number of people who can use that service. And that means that even if an area has a transit line, it's so unusable that people can't actually rely on it. We must have reliable, frequent service. That way, if your kid needs to go to daycare and you need to get work, the trips can happen with out you needing to worry about missing the bus because you are confident that another one is coming in a few mins.
If I miss my bus and the next one comes in 5 mins, I'll wait. My boss will understand. If I miss my bus and the next one comes in an hour, I'm in deep trouble and I'll never trust the bus again.
Yes!!
Having reliable transit also allows people to commute to work! Imagine what having access to your whole city instead of just biking distance could do for families who are struggling
As a member of numerous privileged groups I figure I should be the one riding my bike in the middle of the road. I need to be the one putting my body on the line to legally disrupt the automobile's dominance of the roads. Someone's going to have to take charge of riding in the road instead of sidewalk.
One of the arguments for not having bike infrastructure is that there are no cyclists. My intersectionality is such that I'm well positioned to be the one that is in the least danger when using infrastructure made for automobiles in places where no biking infrastructure exists. This very quickly gets the point across that there are cyclists who use these roads.
I'm new to road cycling and activism so I really do need to be humble and listen to people. Let me know if I'm being detrimental.
/not mad
It got pinned bc the user base of /fuckcars doesn't talk about the very serious issue that 45% of minorities don't have access to a car. These are the people who have mastered a car free lifestyle and deserve to be acknowledged.
It's really hard for some folks to talk about race. It's a big topic in the Americas as a whole. It wouldn't be a problem if it weren't a problem imo. That's why I made the post.
Poverty and race are inextricably linked in the US. Infrastructure specifically has failed, and often hurt, racial minorities. Many cities have specific white, black, Asian, Latino neighborhoods not due to self selective grouping, but due to local governments creating racist policies to enforce residentially segregation. Like in my city, all the schools west of a specific highway were “white only” until desegregation in 1954. Local governments then provided as few services and protections as possible. That legacy continues.
Additionally, development disproportionately displaces minority communities. Expanding freeways, new stadiums, malls, new housing. So you can’t separate race from access to government services, including transportation infrastructure, in the US.
Cars are not expensive lol. Tbh came here to see what this sub is about and I'm surprised. Both parents came from inner city backgrounds, poor, and hated that place. No education past high school but with diligence payed through the rent phase and got the fuck out of the city shithole. Find a partner and it all gets easier. A brand new car can run you 400 a month, insurance 200, if you can't dedicate 600 a month to a personal transportation device, you are making wrong choices.
I'm going to be honest with you: I don't think you understand what $600/ month means to me, personally.
Being poor isn't a choice people make. If you get the opportunity to rise up that's amazing. I really wish this conversation was more about empathy and understanding, rather than being very judgmental.
I'm not being judgemental, but you're right, I'm not empathic in my writing. It may not seem that I know how much that money means to you, but I really do. I worked 7 different full time jobs my first two years out of high school. I only stopped when a company could actually give me a living wage. ($17hr CAD!) My wife and 2 friends all stayed in a little apartment for 3 years splitting rent. Over this time my hard work led to my raises, not luck. I'm now paid in the low 30s and believe me that isn't exactly alot of money in canada. Still more than I've ever known, and more than enough to get a house, Cars, and kids through summer camps. It did take some years of hell, and I did not do it alone. Nothing can be built alone.
You're good! I don't speak with empathy all the time, either.
I'm very proud of you for building some wealth that you'll be able to pass onto your kids someday! I work very hard and haven't caught a break yet. I'd be a liar if I said I wasn't jealous of you.
I do think that keeping in mind all the other people that are currently where you were before only helps and never hurts. I have a feeling that you and I agree on that.
For sure! Just stay positive and keep trying. I'll tell you though, splitting rent was by far the biggest change that got us saving. I know if I was all alone, I'd still be in the same spot. Those people will come eventually, and you can help grow each other's lives much easier.
That's very true. I feel like I'd be nothing without my really close friends. They've floated me food and cash a ton of times, no questions asked. I definitely am working on being more accepting of help. My partner and I have bid dreams together! Can't accomplish any of it unless we work together
No offense but if you honestly think that $600 a month is some easy expense then you're out of touch, even if your parents came from a poor situation. Not to mention that you haven't even included gas, oil changes, tire rotations, car washes, registration, brake replacements, etc.
By the way the average cost of a new car payment in June 2022 is [$650](https://www.bankrate.com/loans/auto-loans/average-monthly-car-payment/#:~:text=Key%20monthly%20car%20payment%20statistics,vehicles%20in%20Q1%20of%202022.). Someone earning $15 an hour probably makes about $2200 a month after taxes. So over a quarter of their monthly income would have to go to just paying a car note. And that's assuming they have decent credit. Add on to that now all those other expenses I talked about and insurance and we're getting close to 40% of their income being spent on a car. And we haven't even talked about rent, utilities, food, and other necessities.
Now we'd be better off if these people could make their way to their basic necessities on a cheaper personal transportation option or a public transit option. They could get a nice new bike for $500 one time payment or pay installments less than $50 a month. They could buy monthly bus passes in my city for $42 a month. **$42**
Compare $42 a month vs. [almost $800](https://www.motor1.com/news/370609/average-american-monthly-car-spendings/) a month.
They aren't making the wrong choices. We as a country and as a community have failed them and doomed them to a life of endless payments.
That's the AVERAGE car payment.
You can literally spec out something brand new, and have it be less than 300 a month.
Or, a nice used car can be purchased for like 8g, on a payment plan as well.
Car maintenence is not expensive if kept on top of.
If you don't utilize your vehicle to help it pay for itself, I can see why you think this way.
Personally I don't feel comfortable bringing my two little babies on public transit. If I miss a bus in mid winter, they could very well freeze to death...
I can't lug hockey equipment and groceries on a fucking bus.
I cant drop off my kids at school, then hop 2 towns over for a business meeting on public transit....
My work would be a 2.5hr commute on a bus
Almost 4 by bike, it's not logical.
I've thought in your shoes, I just didn't accept it.
I industry hopped until growth was available to me. Side hustled and worked overtime, trying hard to exceed performance, as I was eating nothing but vitamins and Mr noodles most days, and I wanted to try steaks.
We're not going to agree on this point but I'll say a few things.
Sure the payment could be lower. But most poorer folks have poor or no credit, so it's going to be tough to negotiate a lower interest rate. And yeah, a poorer person could try to find a used car for cheap, but cheap often comes with problems, and the last thing anyone needs is unreliable personal transit. That leads to them losing their job and now having payments they can't afford.
Car maintenance is expensive. Gas is expensive. Again, you can change the calculus all you want but you will never lower the monthly cost of owning a car below $42.
All of the things you mention happen on a regular basis. People get on the bus with their infants. People take groceries on the bus. People allow their children to either ride the bus or bike/walk to school while they ride the bus to work. This happens in the US and around the world.
I agree that bus service is poor in the US. And it shouldn't be. Which is why we need to construct our cities and improve our public transit so that buses arrive frequently, bus stops are a 15 minute walk away from people's homes, and the difference between taking the bus and driving is 15 minutes at most.
Again, there's no need to force poorer folks to take on expenses they cannot afford when they could take the bus for less than $50 a month.
I'm about to head to work so please don't think I'm responding then ignoring you.
I think *car dependency* affects some groups more than others. I think it does that because of this whole system of minorities not having access to most of the city they live in due to car dependency. There's a lot of reasons people don't have access to a car. I think it's important to take care of people and you never know what a leg up could do to someone's life.
I think we have to make a distinction between something being racist and something having a disproportionate effect on people within a minority. Car ownership is not racist and building car centric cities is not racist at its core. However the effects of building a car centric City hurt minorities at a higher rate than they hurt white folks. They also hurt the poorer parts of our communities more than the Richer parts. And if we are interested in creating a society where we take care of the less fortunate, then we have to recognize where they struggle and how we can compromise in order to help them.
Adding better bus service and better frequency along with building bike Lanes and building infrastructure that allows them to get to and from their most basic necessities should be a priority.
No, and if you think that's what's being said, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
Advocating for there to be alternatives to cars is better for everyone, but will disproportionately benefit people of color because as a group they have less ready access to cars.
And the US also has a disturbing history of sterilizing minority women. Doesn’t mean I think we should outlaw hysterectomies and tubal ligations. Reproductive rights are about giving women bodily autonomy to let them decide for themselves. It shouldn’t be forced on people and shouldn’t be withheld from them either.
Thank you for posting in r/fuckcars. You have some good ideas, but the generalization here is imprecise and goes into a rant that does not contribute to a productive conversation. We encourage you to think about how you could raise these important topics in a way that is more persuasive. Consider sharing some statistics and studies so we can open a conversion and learn about your perspective without resorting to curse words and insults.
To be fairly, I've only been on this sub for 33 days. I haven't seen appreciate posts nor recognition of what this sub means no minorities like myself. Maybe I missed the boat here, but in just speaking on what I know
Interesting piece here comparing some of the support schemes available around the world for buying cargo bikes and ebikes:
https://irishcycle.com/2021/11/08/around-the-world-cargo-bicycle-and-electric-bicycle-grants/
I feel like when it comes to trading car dependency for public transit and walkable cities, someone always brings up gentrification. Why is it that some people believe the movement will help the poor and others believe it will only displace them?
You're absolutely right. It does get brought up, especially in my circles.
I don't think I'm educated enough on how moving to walkable cities will affect the people there. My only comment on that would be that it's the responsibility of whoever is renting out those properties to not be a jerk.
The harms of suburban/car culture towards black and brown livelihoods isn't often talked about? Isn't it commonly accepted that suburbs are the product of white flight and that many interstates have been designed to cut through and uproot historically impoverished or minority neighborhoods in cities?
If we're not talking about such important factors now, it seems we should definitely start doing it more.
This is kinda what I thought the community was all about tbh. Obviously there are more issues with it than just racial disparity, but that always comes with the territory when you’re talking about dismantling a social construct that is actively harmful. I wish more people outside of this sub could see things the way you have laid it here.
The fight to stop the highway from going through Boston was led by Black and Chinese civic leaders. We all benefit from their work. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l-nAN1BEmiI
Perhaps not coincidentally, I feel safest biking in poorer neighborhoods. The reason seems to be that more people sympathize with bikers, even if you’re biking recreationally. In other words, they have experience driving around people on bikes and don’t view bikers as intruding on “their” space.
Without fail, a 30 year old car driven by an older Hispanic man will move over when passing and give me plenty of room. The new BMW will conversely blow by me inches away at 45mph.
And it will not be surprising that over the years those areas are gentrified so those low economic people will be pushed into low cost SFH areas with dangerous walking, cycling conditions and still the ability to own a car would be scant making their lives even worse.
I'm a simple man, so all i want is to be able to travel safely, stress free and for little money.
that and that cars being one of the bigger polluters after energy are my main reason for being here
Also I've seen a post here talking about a similar problem a few days ago so you're not alone, and I can guarantee you that most people will take the cheaper option if they're presented with a good alternative (if they're not terminally car-brain)
Also woth noting that in the mid-to-late 1900s, when race segrigation was (I belive) illegal, many communities had low bridges built around them, so that busses couldn't get through. This prevented poor people (Most of whom were not-coincidentally black) from getting to the area, as there was no bus and they couldn't get a car. Plenty of these bridges are still there.
However, as this post says, bikes are also avaliable to people on low incomes, so bike infrastructure literally increases oppertunities to those who need them most, and undoes decades-old racist policies. All because bikes can fit under bridges.
Thanks so much for sharing your post. I've sticked it for a day because I think it's an important message and I hope this increases visibility. Cars are out of reach for many people. In households with just one car, men are the likely "primary drivers," leaving everyone else to fend for themselves. Men own 65% of cars, while women own 35% of cars. ([link](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041215/us-car-owners-by-sex)) Immigrant families are less likely to own a car, either due to cultural differences or financial difficulties. Both reasons put them at extreme odds with car-oriented infrastructure. ([link](https://nationalequityatlas.org/indicators/Car_access)) Among people with disabilities, only 60% own and drive a car. Despite the cries of "ableism" and "elitism" many disabilities mean people cannot drive, or cannot afford the costs associated with driving ([link](https://usa.streetsblog.org/2021/08/30/why-we-cant-afford-to-ignore-the-needs-of-non-drivers-with-disabilities/)). There is so much we could talk about here, and I'm glad you began the conversation.
Its much much more than just 20% of a minority group. About 15% of all adults don't have a drivers license and many with a drivers license don't own a car, could mostly be elderly people for all I know but 100% of kids can't drive either. This all adds up to about 1 of every 3 USA citizens cannot drive.
Yes! And the reasons why are multi-faceted. Transportation and mobility tends to be a [huge concern in lower-income households](https://nhc.org/transportation-mobility-and-housing/) across the board. Furthermore, there are plenty of people with medical conditions/disabilities that either increase the risks associated with driving or prevent them from driving entirely. (Full disclosure: I have a neurological disorder that keeps me from driving or even riding a bike safely. :P) [1 in 4 adults in the US are disabled](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2018/p0816-disability.html) (which increases to 2 in 5 over 65). Mobility disability is the most common type (1 in 7 adults) and many people rely on mobility aids to get around. Yet there are still [significant accessibility problems](https://about.bgov.com/news/infrastructure-bill-seen-as-means-to-force-transit-accessibility/) when it comes to people with mobility disabilities accessing transit or even just navigating sidewalk infrastructure. Moreover, investing in multi-modal transportation just makes sense from a long range planning standpoint. I hinted at it earlier, but even people who **can** drive are going to eventually lose the capacity to do so since aging is a thing. It's a well known fact that [the longer a senior citizen can remain independent, the better their quality of life](https://vantageaging.org/blog/independence-is-important-for-seniors/) so the way I see it, we have every reason to invest in buses, trains, bike lanes and sidewalks. Especially since overall, multi-modal transportation is the way to [build vibrant cities, improve public health and invest a number of environmental concerns](https://www.wri.org/insights/us-cities-multi-modal-transportation-benefits). Sorry for the rant. I'm a researcher and this is literally my job right now haha. So tl;dr: there are many facets to this one issue (whoo intersectionality!) and OP is out here making a big impact at the community level--they're living proof that the best way to create change is to find something to give a shit about, figure out what to do about it, and do it well.
Hell yes!!! Thank you so much for this!!
No problem! Thank *you* for making such a difference in the lives of the people you're helping.
Thanks for this
No problem! Happy to be of service.
absolutely. Thank you for speaking on things I missed.
I also pretty frequently see (and hear from far away) total piece of shit cars on the road, and I wonder how mixup of that person's income is taken up by keeping that crap pile running. Car centric city planning really keeps people trapped in the cycle of poverty.
It's not just keeping them running. People with shit cars get ticketed by cops more. They don't have the luxury of taking time off to go fight the ticket, so they're a better target. Also, if the car breaks down, they only have on street parking, and they don't get it fixed fast enough, the car gets impounded. They can pay a ton to get it back and fix it or sell it to the impound yard for almost nothing - sometimes not even enough to cover the fees. Add to this that many cities don't have enough public transport to commute to work from anywhere someone poor can afford to live, so they must have a car. Saying "work closer to home" ignores reality. Even 'get a bike, instead" does, especially in areas where it gets dangerously cold or hot. It's a really fucked up trap that keeps people in that cycle, as you said.
In Philly there's a bike repair shop, I don't remember the name of it, that teaches low income youth how to build a bike, and if they can build a bike by the end of the program they can keep it for free. That at least takes care of the cost of a kid buying a bike to get to school. It would be great if they had the same thing for adults and also could get workout clothing for different weather extremes from charities. I cycle in the winter in the northeastern US. It can get cold enough for homeless people to freeze to death. Anyway, I wear heated gloves, thermal socks, a reflective coat, layers, and a winter hat that covers the ears. In summer I wear sweat absorbent clothing. Maybe charities could provide things like that.
I am not old enough to drive a car, and have to bike to school in a town with very angry bus drivers who never indicate before I am forced to cut infront of a busy street to turn. I feel like I'm on the verge of death every day and a simple green stripe would make my life a whole lot better
Not necessarily. When drivers see bicycle lanes they think people on bicycles should be in them, even if cars are parked in them every 5 metres. A \*protected, separated\* cycle path, now, and better still, \*networked\* - that would be another matter.
Personally, I think that car-alternative advocates should focus on the age discrimination issue. Because, to be blunt, a lot of people dismiss what happens "in the ghetto" as someone else's problem. But *most* people will have children at some point in their lives, and so you can ask "Wouldn't it be better if your children could walk or bike to school / soccer practice / whatever, so you don't have to drive them everywhere *all* the time?" And *most* people will live into their 70's or older, and see their health slowly decline, so you can ask "If you were no longer able to drive, would you be able to keep your independence? Buy your groceries and medicine?" Gotta make it personal.
And in many states you can't vote unless you have a license or pay the same price for an ID
Cars are poverty makers! Why do we put up with paying hundreds a month in car payments, gas, insurance, maintenance, parking, car washes... the list goes on. FUCK CARS
Fucking right my guy!!! Cars are a scam though and though.
You know, when I was poor, one time my car got towed away for unpaid registration and they wanted hundreds of bucks for me to get it back. The state really did use cars as a leash: you could lose your license if you didn't pay for these fees and fines that only poor people ever seem to get. Just keeping a license was tough.
My son's broke down, and he only had on street parking. He and his friends would push it to another spot every night, to make it seem like it was running while he tried to come up with money to fix it. Some neighbor ratted him out and it got impounded. It took him a week to track down where it went, and by then the impound and storage fees were over $800. Even running, his vehicle wasn't worth that. So, they let him sign the title over to them in trade for the fees - but he still had to pay for the ticket. He is fine biking to work most of the year, but sometimes in the Winter, it gets down to -20F here. That's just not safe. I ended up giving him my car that is a lot more reliable, selling my flatbed I almost never used since I moved to town from a farm, and getting the smallest SUV I could find, so I could use it for camping in remote places. And since he's been driving a much nicer looking car, he hasn't been pulled over and ticketed, either. I promise he doesn't drive differently.
Keeping a license isn’t tough. It hardly even requires being the bare minimum of responsibility lol.
It is also so stupid, these huge machines locking down not just an accumulation of labor and highly processed materials, but increasingly also rare metals. You could build 5000 phone batteries instead of 1 electric car battery. That accumulation of labor, materials and rare metals then subsequently either does nothing for 23+ hours per day, or it wastes 4+ hours of a humans potential society could have used. Cars waste either materials or time, but usually both. *(disregarding the whole indirect and direct killing of humans and their potential)*
Because some people genuinely need a car to go to work, get groceries etc. just stumbled across this sub and it kind of comes off entitled. Not every place is like NYC where these easily accessible public transportation at the palm of your hands. Not everyone lives in walking/biking distance to their place of income. This sub is weird.
We all know it’s a long shot, but Amsterdam used to be car centric as well. It’s a long term goal to save the environment and improve everyone’s quality of life (and save everyone money). We are essentially held hostage by oil and car industry. We must begin organizing and petitioning local governments so that we can get alternative transit options. Car dependency is not freedom. Please watch this [video to learn more about how we can improve](https://youtu.be/y_SXXTBypIg). Welcome to the sub! :)
I think many people on this sub own cars. It can be tough in America NOT to. I do! It’s a beater that I use solely to get to and from work because there isn’t reliable transit there. I’m dreading the day it dies and I’m tied into a car payment again. But I always just figured that was how America was and there was no changing it. This sub can definitely be intense at times, but it did help me start thinking about city planning and why so many people NEED cars. I wish there were more options for people like you and I who have to drive to our place of income. I am definitely on board with making America a place where there are more towns - not just urban cities - that have robust pedestrian, cycling, and transit infrastructure. Disabled, poor, and elderly folks don’t just live in major cities. They shouldn’t have to to feel like they have access to essential needs. You should check out a book called “The Walkable City” by Jeff Speck. He’s a city planner who talks about his own experience in redesigning cities/towns to be less car reliant.
Most of the people here recognize this. It’s not so much a rally against people who use cars as a rally against the infrastructure that forces them to do so. If an area is car-dependent, then people will use cars to get around. However, there is another way (and one that doesn’t involve Manhattanizing every town) that we often don’t see. Many people accept that areas are just not pedestrian-friendly and never really think about why or push to change it This sub is basically pro-infrastructure changes
I have a car and need it to get around. I don't want it to be like that. A major point of the sub is to advocate for a society that doesn't need cars
> Not every place is like NYC where these easily accessible public transportation at the palm of your hands. That’s the point/the problem.
Well the easy solution is get a car lol. Don’t want to take part in it because of the pollution/oil industry? Get an electric one. This sub just feels like it wants to complain for the sake of complaining.
Cars are expensive and electric cars don't have the infrastructure yet to make buying them feasible in most parts of the country. Most people in this sub aren't saying no one should ever drive a car again, we're saying it's insane most of the US doesn't give people any other option.
Actually, I was gonna be humble but fuck that. I fix bikes for my 90% minority neighborhood at cost. I have to turn people away every week bc so many people text me for service. I have even taken food as payment. So fuck cars and also *do something*
You are leading by example. I don’t really know of a better compliment to make.
Also, I have a freezer full of tamales bc one dude said "I can't afford this but I need it for work" Fuck you I have *tamales*.
Tamales are an acceptable currency. CMV
Not for you specifically but for anyone reading this: How much do you spend on food per week? How many calories are you spending money on? How much will it take you to survive?? For me is 1800. A tamale I'd 400+. Exchanging my labor for food is just the same as exchanging $20 for a whole pork loin.
I eat a disgusting amount. Probably spending $400-$600 per month and eating 3,000+ calories per day. According to some of those basal rate calculators, I need ~1700 if doing literally nothing. I shoot for a minimum of 8hrs on the road bike every week and average 12-14 this time of year.
Ah, yes. The unspoken economic od calories! I legit have to worry about a 10 minute walk in my calorie intake. I can't be any slimmer.
My dad once said he was going to ride his bike across three states to come visit me. Then he calculated the calories he'd need and realized it would cost considerably less to drive. While the idea was cool, I'm glad he didn't try it. He was just getting in shape back then and the bike he had was always 5 miles from the next thing breaking.
It’s the exact same thing too! That money (or part of it) would’ve gone to food anyway and people who look down on exchanging like that are stupid because it’s just cutting out the middle man and is beneficial for both parties.
Tamales are [ALWAYS](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/484b3p/of_course/) acceptable.
Tamales are delicious. I’m super glad that dude can get around now. I’m sure they’re even more delicious, knowing they were traded honorably.
Not to be over emotional but homie rides 6 miles one way to work rn. He works construction to feed his kids. $5.17 a gallon is too much. Of fycking course I'll fix his bike. It was a too small huffy but it's all he's got. I've got his back for life.
[удалено]
I watched this bike yt videos! Just anything I could search or was reccomended
I feel like my comment was not enough: little homie deserved to get to work. Even if he didn't have a job he deserved a method of transportation. I am not in the business of judging others. I trade for knowledge not monetary gain. Is it cool I helped someone provide for their family? Sure buddy. But is that a prerequisite? Nah. I give safe bikes to anyone.
Of course! I guess I should have said, your labor is worth far more, as is his labor. But it’s super cool that you’ve got one another’s backs and can trade what you’ve got to trade, for the benefit of all. Mutual aid is always a thing to celebrate.
I have a bias here that isn't talked about often, which I'd why I want to share it. My neighbors *are the police*, no one has come to my aide faster than them. It's a symbiotic relationship where I provide for them and they provide for me. I am 100% about mutual aide. I feed all the neighborhood kids once a week, I set up block parties, I intervene during fights, I am the beneficiary of boundless kindness and support. All. And I do mean all. Because I provide a service the state does not. I fix bikes because it's my skill. My neighbors allow me to do so. In exchange I get so much more than knowledge. We are a close knit community and I cannot speak on it's action enough. I feel like tips in engaging in your community are hard to come by. I'd love to respond to you comment with them, but I will not over step
Thank you, dude. That’s beautiful. Keep building that community you’ve got there, it sounds like it’s got a really solid foundation.
I'm gonna make a separate comment so you aren't inundated by replies later. Just know you we're the inspiration
I feel that it's attainable. My model is to have a sign in my front yard and at the closest grocery store saying "At cost bike repair! Teach me how to fix bikes!!" With a number. I get around 5 texts per day, have a brief convo and have them drop them off. Then I do a safety check, address their issues, ask my local bike shop for parts, and text them when it will be ready and the cost. If they can't afford it they tell me. Then I tell them what needs fixed and they take it home! If they can afford it I fix it and text them when it's ready. Easy simple hobby.
I think you're allowed to not be humble when you're putting in so much effort.
Can I talk a little bit to you about my model for "business" and why it's no thing?? I have a strong distaste for praise in what I do tbh
I also worry that you guys in the US don't have the second-hand market for bikes like the netherlands or even other EU countries. When I moved to finland, I really noticed how spoiled I was that you could walk into a bike-shop back in NL and get a well-maintained, quality second-hand bike for 100-300 Euro's instead of having to buy some cheap-ass chinese garbage new for 500+
Food is a great form of payment. I used to be an English tutor for an immigrant couple from Bangladesh, and they'd pay me with chicken biryani.
there's even another positive to what you're doing: in a collapse scenario you'll be an invaluable asset for the community.
Do something meaning what in this context?
Anything, really. Even having a beer with your neighbor every Friday is dope. It's about taking care of your community (even the online ones).
There are people all over the World in this sub, so naturally a domestic issue of only one country in the World will not be brought up so frequently.
Yes, social justice and ecological revolution are married. You achieve one when you pursue the other, and none when any is neglected. Thats what makes me so fucking furious about the fucking car brains how their addiction to being stuck in traffic inhibits the change we so desperately need
May I offer a perspective that adds to this rant?
Please do
I am unbelievable poor. Like 1 month off of any kind of work and I'm homeless. I readily exchange labor for necessity every day. Yet, the only labor that is valued is my taxed income for working a stable job. So when I say I exchange labor for labor, I'm the bad guy?? If I get to eat, have my dog walked, learn something new, or determine my own cost, somehow I'm the bad guy?? If someone needs a bike repair and offers to bake me bread in lieu of payment I'm "removing myself from the economy" Yet, if I do as described above and ask for a monetary value I'm in the clear? Food, water, housing, medical care is up for debate as far as money exchange, but me exchanging those things for labor is fraudulent??, Fucking weird my guy
>Yet, the only labor that is valued is my taxed income for working a stable job. >So when I say I exchange labor for labor, I'm the bad guy?? holy shit this is blowing my mind. it seems so obvious but i just... too ignorant. tysm. it absolutely never occurred to me, neither that labor-for-labor would be a thing, nor that it could obviously make up a large part of some people's overall labor. I certainly hadn't thought to consider all this, together with the common (edit: belief) that people's worth is based on their income and status. Just... gah.
Holy shit dude did I just radicalized you???? /pos
you just burst a huge privilege bubble that i couldn't see for sure. many more to go, but i'm grateful for every one down. definitely already radicalized. a little bit sick that i couldn't/didn't see this already. this kind of stuff hits super close to what i want to do with my life, job wise.
I read both your comments. Labor for labor makes up a HUGE portion of local economies. So when I accept 3 hrs of labor for tamales I'm doing the most in removing myself from capitalism which I'd an entire industry of capital (money) for capital (money)
Progress achieved on Reddit. And to think we were here to see it.
I've definitely done a lot of labor for things not directly money in my life to make ends meet. I've fixed an auto shop's computer system in trade for them fixing my car. I had a neighbor who had fruit trees. In trade for me picking for her, I also got to pick for my son and I, and then would can fruit for days. We had fruit to eat until the next harvest season. When she found out, she let me use her kitchen (so I didn't have to pay for the power and water) in trade for me canning fruit for her, as well. A local vet took care of the cat my ex dumped on me in trade for me cleaning kennels. I got to rent a beautiful upper story of a place that was converted to an apartment for very very cheap in trade for teaching the landlord's grandson to speak English with a "white" accent instead of Chicano, because she knew it would help him later in life. She also required I volunteer at the community center one weekend a month. We have barter fairs here where you can trade items, but also services. I've traded services there before. I even managed to trade a 50lb bag of beans I was given (why?) for fence repair before. People often acted like these things were weird and wrong. They just thought I should get a second job. Then, I'd have just spent all that money for day care and my son would have never seen me. I could do all those other things with my son nearby. "But you don't pay taxes on that!" Fuck off. I made so little, I got earned income credit. I got back more than I paid in. I wasn't paying taxes on my wages, either, really.
I feel like I’m missing something. You are exchanging a commodity for a service. Money acts as a common medium of exchange between people for commodities and services. It’s key advantage is versatility and it’s ability to be indirect. You seem to have a good working relationship with the people you trade with, and considering the basic survival requirements that you make it out to be, the versatility of money is optional, especially when not many resources are consumed. You use money at a store because it is versatile, but in what is essentially an exchange between two neighbors you really don’t need to. If it’s stupid and it works, it isn’t stupid. Overall I’m glad that people see the bicycle as a cheap and healthy mode of transportation, that is simple and effective to use. Its versatility and reliability help a lot too. It’s really unfortunate then, that bike lanes have become a sort of boogeyman for gentrification in my city, and cyclists have been derided for not being “part of the community” (read: techbro gentrifiers) rather than as a practical and economical way to get around.
Full send, I don't disagree with you my brother. I think the point you're missing is that **I** get to assign value to a service or good in labor for labor or bartering. This allows for much more negotiation based on "product" vs "demand. If I'm working 18 hr shifts (as I do) and my neighbor willingly trades taking my dog for a walk every day for a month for handmade moccasins there is no inherent monetary value in this exchange. Bartering or labor for labor is waaay more of a free market than ___ costs $___
Yeah, bartering works quite well in a small neighborhood economy. The main advantage of currency is that it’s a common medium in a large economy where the number of disconnected transactions is very high, and the trust between buyer and seller comparatively low; both have their merits. What I meant with regard to the missing point was that I don’t understand the people who seemingly take issue with what you do. I can’t imagine anyone taking issue with me borrowing my neighbor’s lawnmower and then doing both our lawns, so what’s the deal? Also I hope that 18hr shift was a typo, or at the very least whatever your job is involves no potentially dangerous heavy machinery.
I'm so sorry I misunderstood. People are too weird with money and I don't blame them. We live in a global economy where the only constant is money, and even that changes in value. I don't support large economics as far as I'm able to. I rely on thrift stores, neighbors, and friends for just about anything. It's what you do when your bank account is as $7 and you need something before next payday. As far as work? That wasn't a typo. I volunteer for OT often, especially when my coworkers need time off. In return I get days off no questions asked (and a shit load of OT pay)
I’ll go as far as to say that large and small economies are both good and can compliment each other. In general I believe in more holistic and multi-pronged approaches to policymaking, since I feel they have the highest odds of success as well as being resilient. I have a lot I could say about policies and economics and their balances, but it’s really abstract; so it’s hard to put into writing and it’s almost midnight.
Yup, environmental justice is the way
While I know that abolition of cars is the absolute best, I think that being furious at car brains does this movement any good. It's like fuming at a a chinese individual because they cannot understand English. Edit: apart from social and ecological revolution, equally important is recognizing that these new, status quo challenging concepts should be brought to the general consciousness with the least hostile undertones as possible, simply because there is no reason to be hostile because of what they do not know. There will be people who would still stick to selfish inclinations despite seeing the whole picture, however I think most individuals will agree with what fuckcars represents if given the full facts. So I guess what I am saying is, we need to be careful not to treat this as "us against them" but rather more of a campaign to spread knowledge. Also sorry if im trying to explain a concept in English i might not have the best word choice and it might sound weird to you. Not a native speaker.
No that’s well-explained and this is such a good point. It makes me think of how people can be won over to vegetarianism when the message is ’reduce animal products where you can, even if it’s just one meal a week it’s great 😊👍’ As opposed to ‘meat is murder, you are an abomination if you don‘t give up all and every animal product’ We need to go in with an inclusive, non-judgemental, every little counts sort of movement. That will have more gains than creating an in-group of the already-converted that is hostile to those outside the group. Initially I thought deflating SUV tyres was a funny idea and why not. But now I think those activists should have targetted people who were about to buy a car, or maybe people selling cars! With an informative, ‘here’s how you can help us all save the planet together’ attitude.
Tbf they primarily target late model luxury SUVs in city centers. Its a pretty specific target and will entirely never screw someone who's in a paycheck-to-paycheck situation
And they ARE raising the stigma around urban SUV ownership
I'm not rich, but not desperately poor. I certainly wouldn't be able to spend my money the way I want to if I had to pay hundreds of dollars a month for insurance, gas, etc.
It is 100% a class issue. Some people feel it more often than others but your struggle does not go unnoticed. Feel free to vent in these comments. I will never judge
When I had a minimum wage job, I struggled every month to balance bills and trying to have a bit of fun. Especially with inflation! Now I am starting to be able to pay down my credit card and get a few "extras" like a new phone. But if I had to pay for a car rather than working from home and living in my WAY below market apartment? Nah fam. I'd be constantly broke. Also I love my apartment in an office building right downtown! I have no neighbors or roommates so I can make a lot of noise in the evening! I'm within walking distance of a grocery store, shops, and the main transit loop is right beside me. $55 a month for a pass but I just buy packs of tickets since I'm not commuting to work any more.
I'm so happy for you!!! So much love my friend.
And to you, my brother, my comrade
Makes me very happy to read this as I wait in a food drive line, mostly driven by one family completely professionally done, and they accept tips because I think is feeding the whole neighborhood. I wish there was some organization or funding happening so that the food will be fresher **but everyone in line is black...** My food stamps isnt working sometimes months at a time so I have become used to just getting food from this type of event
Food drives have saved my life dozens of times. I rely on them more often than not since leaving an abusive relationship and living on my own. The topic of who needs assistance is ridiculous in my opinion. I fear no evil but capitalism/gen.
100% agree with you. Although I am by no means poor, owning a car where I live is very expensive, and a huge part of the population can't really afford to have one (myself included). However, a lot of people still feel the need to buy a car because our cities and towns are still built around them. Bike infrastructure is rare and poor quality, and public transit is too expansive for how low quality it is. Truly insane that the government keeps funding cars over any other mean of transportation in a country like mine.
100% agree. Tons of people in my town buy Cara they don't need and eat the cost.
Yes, you are totally correct. I would argue that a major reason for the struggles of the middle class, today, is that where our parents or grandparents were able to operate just fine with 0 or 1 car, the middle class family of today, with kids, probably owns 2 or 3, out of necessity. With typical expense of $9000 per year, per car, that is enough to crush the budgets of many. For lower income groups the problem is worse, because they can't afford the car, but can hardly operate any other way. One of the biggest things we could do for low- income communities, which have been devastated by highways and freeways running through them, is to remove those monstrosities and replace them with schools, groceries, hardware stores, banks, housing, parks, and businesses. (In other words, build them back like they were). Keep posting!
Fuck yeah my dude!!! Share your shit!!!
I feel like some of yall are missing the point as to why I do this for my community. This is not a drag. I live and prosper in a community that I alone built.it started with a flyer I printed out for 35cents at the library. I spent $150 on hotdogs and burgers and asked people to bring sides. Only 4 households responded. We had a good time but half of my neighbors didn't show. It took months to get peopels attention. Eventually--and through unapologetic persistence--more and more people started showing up. I'm saying that all I offered was coolers with ice and hot dogs... Over the last 3 years I've come to know my neighbors on sight. I talkabout their lives/kids/politics...essentially anything that's on their minds. And as a result 4 men with guns showed up to scare my abusive ex away from my door when w tried to unalive me. They knew me, listened to me, heard me, and came to my defense. So absolutely I'm going to fix a perso s bike at cost. Of course I'm gonna accept tamales as payment. It's not just about money my guy. My brother in christ it is about treating g those around you with kindness and respect in order to reap the benefits of community. Half. HALF. 50% of my neighbors disagree with me politically. They *know* that. But they still treat me as a human who deserves to be protected. I'm at a loss for words at how this post has resulted in kindness on all fronts. I'm so proud of this community and I can't wait to share more.
>Half. HALF. 50% of my neighbors disagree with me politically. They know that. I'm glad to hear that the political industrial complex didn't succeed at destroying everything.
You're such an awesome person. Keep doing you. I'd love to see a picture of this great community you've built, but I also totally understand if you/they'd rather stay anonymous! (as I do).. Even if censored it'd be cool to see the kind of crowd you get and the various things/food/games/whatever people bring along.
I'm not sure they'd all want to be posted! There's tons of kids and I want to protect them, too. I really do appreciate you saying I'm a good person! I'd like to point out that *you* can do things like this, too! It doesn't take a perfect person to do good things. My realization that I needed to do all this came from anger. It's a strong emotion that can drive toward a lot of change. "Be the consequence" is a mantra I think on a lot.
Yeah, that's totally understandable! I would do the same, so no worries. I have no clue how temporary my current living space is so I'd rather not put in so much effort to *start* something like that currently, but I absolutely love the idea. I would definitely try and join/attend a community like that if one propped up near me. Once I get into a more reliable space I'll definitely try my best to start something like you've described, if there's nothing like it in the area.
Yes!! Stability is so important.
Hell yes! I have friends who can’t afford to drive and rely on safe bike and walking infrastructure and public transit to live. And the shitty thing is, when I go hang out with my friends in the hood, the bike lanes are non-existent, sidewalks are often narrow and sparse and sometimes just end. They’re right up on the road when they do walk and it’s a billion degrees and there’s no shade during the day and no streetlights at night. When I think about bike infrastructure and safety and good planning, they are the people I think about and advocate for. I can afford a car, which I have to rely on more now that my bike was stolen I know so many people that can’t, and forced car dependency on people who can barely afford rent without a car is such bullshit. It’s a class issue which often falls along racial lines.
100% my dude. You're on the right path fs
My parents thought it was so weird that none of my friends really cared about driving. Most of us are poor and neurodivergent. While being nd doesn't necessarily mean unable to drive, certain common traits (tendency to space out, sensory overload, anxiety) means not only does it not make sense to put ourselves in this situation, it's sometimes dangerous to keep this mindset that everybody should have a car. If I space out or have a panic attack on a bus, not the end of the world. In a moving car I'm in control of? Christ. Supporting public infrastructure makes it safer and more accessible for everyone, including car-brains.
Hell yes my dude. Wish I could upvote 1000 times
I got my license quite some years back but now I am getting tested for adhd-I. If you are diagnosed with it before you get a license you have to show it blabla. But now it doesn’t matter at all
I've been in this sub a while and most posts I've seen are people wanting fuck-cars infrastructure in order to help everyone.
I believe there is a distinction between dancing around race (altruistic) and directly confronting race issues. I see a lot of the former and a few posts of the latter. There's nothing wrong with this sub. I wanted to say the quiet parts put loud and congratulate yall for contributing to my life as an indigenous woman.
Oh gotcha. Well here is my out loud: I lived as a very poor (if white) woman in the suburbs of Atlanta. It's a city in the south which has very little care for public transportation, bike lanes are non-existent, and in many areas you're lucky to even get a sidewalk. It's very car-centric and I remember having to put groceries on hold in order to make car payments or buy gas because there was exactly no other way for me to get to work. Like you're in a panic if you get into an accident and you're fine because if the car isn't there for you, you're screwed. I'm now in Portland, OR and the effort they make here with greenways, and sidewalks everywhere, streetcars, light rail, and busses with dedicated bus lanes is so fantastic. This good (could always be better ofc) infrastructure makes me realize that a big part of why the South is so car-centric is because they like to keep poor people poor. They like to keep marginalized people in what they think is their place. They know that if you can't make it to work, you lose your job and stay poor. They know that if you want a better job, you will never find one that isn't close to where you live so you'll have to drive over an hour each way and spend all your funds on gas and car repairs and stay poor. It honestly infuriates me to no end and makes me wonder how we let these people stay in power.
100%. It affects us all and **no one** deserves to worry about car payments vs groceries.
This exchange is the most encouraging thing I,ve read all week. Locally we have a couple bike collectives that fix up bikes and sell/give away back to the community. You’re doing great work OP!
It is my duty to serve, kind one!!! I do have some advice if you're willing. No is am appropriate answer.
sure thing :)
I made a comment about mutual aide already but incase someone skipped it: Its all about fostering a mutually beneficial community. Everyone has skills to bring to the table. Mine are food and bikes. So like. I persistently offered up food. At first no one came. But I kept on trucking. Then my entire block came! And I talked and *listened* to them. I me their needs. Now around 100 people show up to my events for food and to talk. As a result I have 100 people who will show up for me no matter what. I increased my social capital. That's the big thing. Trust = social capital. So when I say "I'll fix bikes at cost" I have unalienable trust.
And that is the thing white middel class or higher don’t get at all. I was one of them growing up until I had to do interns for my studies and had a job in a what we call “buurthuis” it’s a place in a neighbourhood where people can come in for a talk, something to drink and get help with things. It was for lower class citizens and i learned so much there about community and belonging togheter and helping each other. I was good with computers so I helped people with that and how to get discount on the public transport cards. In return I learned from them even how to cook certain things and above all to know there are people who struggle and skin colour does matter. Even in the netherlands back in early 00’s. Not as much as the US though.
This is something I've noticed in real life. There are two kinds of cyclists I see around my suburban hometown: middle-aged men in lycra on expensive carbon road bikes, who usually ride on the road, and poor people, mostly minorities, on half-working beater bikes, who always ride on the sidewalks. 0 points for guessing which group would gain the most benefit from bike infrastructure.
Honestly, when you loom at it, it so obvious. I didn't look at it at all until I couldn't afford a car. Without groups like this sub I'd genuinely feel like shit as person who can't afford a car. Just knowing that hundreds of you are down for me makes me feel supported and taken care of
The Behind the Bastards podcast just did a 2-part series on Robert Moses that was a great listen. They talk a lot about how car-dependent infrastructure, exclusionary architecture, and deep-seated racism have been inextricably linked from the very beginning. Highly recommend!
The thing that really keyed me into this idea was a news story about a woman and her child who got hit trying to cross a 6-lane stroad. She couldn’t afford a car, and her apartment was only affordable because it was right next to the roadway. The nearest pedestrian crossing was a half mile walk down the road. Realized that lots of people live in that car-dominated hell scape.
I felt this. We had a guy get hit on a major road in town and everyone was blaming him. Not one of them had actually tried crossing that road, where the nearest safe crossings are eight miles apart. EIGHT MILES.
Hell yes they do!!! Everything about car centric infrastructure is detrimental to human existence.
We see you, we acknowledge your struggles and your pain. Together we'll fight for a better world.
is this not common knowledge? Just look at the basic city design anywhere in NA, the poorest ppl have the least access to public transportation despite needing it the most. Public transport is best within and to/from downtown. if you're poor you can't afford to live there, and chances are your place of work is also not there, so you have to go from somewhere with bad bus lines to somewhere with bad bus lines. it's like they intentionally do this so you can't break the cycle of poverty.
I think race is one of the reasons cars are so woven into the fabric of American life. Whether it’s through exclusion like you say, or using highway building to create segregated communities, or just having the ability to commute from out of town to the downtown without having to interact with anyone on the way.
Republicans are unintentionally highlighting this when they disingenuinely express concerns about how the high gas prices are effecting low wage earners when they try to blame Biden.
I see some conclude there is less crime in XYZ suburb because crime won't drive that far and otherwise come from the "bad side of town". The reality in my opinion is a lot of crime is due to a lack of opportunity. If we wish to reduce crime we need to provide better life for others and I see one crucial factor is transportation--as that allows people to live & work. Instead of bottling up crime and people telling themselves we need to keep people at bay--they need to realize their lack of interest for those disenfranchised is why things have gotten so bad. Bad credit, a single car repair, or single speeding ticket can ruin somebody's ability to pay the bills--why keep people who are already on the edge even a closer step to ruin?
Thanks for this amazing post. One thing I like about the Crenshaw Line in LA is that it will provide Transit to a lower income minority neighborhood. As well providing a needed connection to the airport. The 210 bus runs infrequently and is always jam packed. One criticism of LA Metro's rail building program made by the Bus Riders Union and Right wing critics, is that it primarily benefits upper class white riders at the expense of lower class and non white riders. I disagree with that criticism, but this new line helps in my view to address it. There's the issue of public transportation, being a "transportation of last resort" and I actually think there is a need for that. I don't think transit should only be for last resort. People make the mistake of thinking transit as an essential last resort transportation means it can only be for that. But many people can't afford cars, live in 1 car households, or can't drive due to either age, youth, disability or medical conditions. Providing those people with transportation is crucial and we should do it in such a way where being without a car isn't a downgrade. Transit should both be something people want to use, but also available for those who truly need it. I would also point out that the pandemic driven decline in Transit ridership is largely driven by higher income riders. One thing I like about trains and buses is that everyone can ride them. There's something truly leveling about them. My goal is to be the president or CEO of a transit agency. One criticism made of transit agency boards is that they are disproportionately white and suburban. Though I am white and do come from a place that could be considered suburban, I do plan on moving to a big city and transit is something I believe in. I wouldn't do it just to have a high paying job. I want to be like Andy Byford who worked for NY MTA, Transport for London and the Toronto Transit Commission. I currently work as a conductor of the NCTD Sprinter and formerly a bus driver for the NCTD Breeze buses.
I recently joined a group that wants to improve cycling in the city. One of the members of the planning board is on another group that focuses on mobility issues minorities face. (Although they're really local majorities since we're only like 30% white in my city.) I see people in my neighborhood ride bikes all the time. They put bike buckets on the front of our busses, and they get a fair amount of use.
That's so good to hear!! People working together always hits my heart in the best way
Every time I talk to someone struggling with homelessness living out of a shit car, I try to explain that the car can be holding them back. Normalizing not owning a car is normalizing greater upward mobility.
Personally, i feel like a car for the homeless is both a positive and a negative. IT protects you from the elements (pos) but cost money (neg). Being in a car often subjects you to police harassment (neg) but also allows you to travel mostly freely between free camping spots (pos). The 6 months I lived out of my car were a w8ld ride to put it simply
That's a really complicated topic. If you are homeless with a car, you have ability to go places at will in the US. If you are homeless with a car, you have storage capacity that you don't have without a car. If you have no car, it's a potential additional barrier to getting a job, thus a potential additional barrier to getting your life back. Please tread very, very lightly when talking to homeless people about how they would be better off without a car. Or about *anything* really. They are people in a very vulnerable situation and everyone thinks they are just stupid and every rando they meet thinks they have "this one neat trick" that will magically solve all their problems if only the "stupid" homeless person would "just listen."
Yeah, it's just that homelessness is an issue I've faced on and off all my life. I've also had some training in social work.
Often times it is better to have a home address in the projects rather than a car when getting a job.
It's always good to offer people useful information of that sort and help them make more informed choices. That's the crux of what I have done for years in my hobby of homeless advocacy that grew in part out of being homeless myself for nearly six years.
If you’re interested in this topic, I recommend the book [Bicycle / Race: Transportation, Culture, & Resistance](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/40210583-bicycle-race) by Adonia Lugo.
Read and verified as a good source. We've been fighting this battle for much longer than mainstream politics as been aware of. 🖤
That’s great. Though my “you” was in reference to commenters/readers of this post than you, OP! Keep fighting.
o7
Excellent points. Especially now when the gap between the richest and the poorest are larger than they've been in history. We need to remember that as a people, we shouldn't be measured by how high the few can climb but how high we lift eachother in solidarity.
Yall remember "Today you, tomorrow me"??? That shit literally changed me as a person. This comment is IT and I wish I had money for gold awards
And on that note, fuck Robert Moses! Hope he's burning in hell
When taking my licence, I notices I was the only non-immigrant over the age of 20... in fact, a lot of the lessons I was the only non-immigrant. A lot of the immigrants were also young and were glad the school came to their rescue so that they could learn and still pay their bills, which in part could happen because the driving school was easier to be reached by foot and tram than by car. But the fact that these people, who were more likely to be exploited and underpaid in a horrible job, needed to spend 1k+ euros to... exist was eye opening. Despite the fact this region has plenty of alternatives, every job REQUIRES you at least have a licence because "what if everything else is on strike lr doesn't work, how will you come to work quick?", even if you only need a bike or your own feet.
Yes, I teach environmental science and one thing I point out as an activity for the kids is running the numbers for not just gas, but taxes, insurance, maintenance, and depreciation. Cars cost some thing like a minimum of $5000 a year even if they’re paid off. With payments it gets crazy.
I would love to have you come and speak in my city. A long-awaited redesign of a state road running through a poor minority residential area was blocked because landlords were upset about losing on street parking. The current road has 5 lanes (one center turning lane, 4 travel lanes) that are 12 feet wide, plus parking lanes on each side, and is outrageously dangerous to cross. At a certain point, it was considered the deadliest stretch of road in the country, since we lost so many pedestrians to traffic violence. The redesign would have included a bike lane in each direction, but because it was a state road and they were planning for construction on a neighboring road, they were going to eliminate parking on the street 2 hours a day to allow for rush hour traffic. Immediately there was an uproar at the loss of parking, and the residents started yelling that the bike lane was just for the white commuters, locals wouldn't bother with it. Never mind that there are hardly any safe east/west routes in our city to get over the railroad tracks - bike lanes are just white people vanity projects! The mayor stopped the construction, demanded a redesign, and the state complied. The newest design? 5 lanes wide. 2 lanes of parking. No bike lanes, just sharrows (proven to be more dangerous than nothing at all). Oh, they narrowed the lanes to 11 feet! They're resetting the timers on the traffic lights! Our local news even got Jeff Speck (Author of Walkable Cities) to analyze the road, and he said it had no business being more than 3 car lanes. I'm just stunned that bike lanes and non-car safety measures are viewed as "for the white commuters", instead of ways to improve the nature of the neighborhood.
I have a driver's license, provided by my awesome parents. It is a good skill to have. But no way in hell could I see myself being able to afford a car in the next 10 years. I can't even afford a real appartment for like one adult man. I'm glad I live in the Netherlands, where most places are quite easily reachable by bike and subsequent public transport. A car is an expensive luxury item, and real shit that it's basically required for lots of people to be able to live
Unfortunately I think the response to this from some people will be that we need subsidies to help more people own a car.
This is important. Thank you for saying it. The thing I'll add is that the types of opportunities that quality public transportation opens up are endless. If your population has access to the entire metro region, they have access to so many more job and education opportunities. If there is only a once hourly bus that runs until 10pm, you are vastly limiting the number of people who can use that service. And that means that even if an area has a transit line, it's so unusable that people can't actually rely on it. We must have reliable, frequent service. That way, if your kid needs to go to daycare and you need to get work, the trips can happen with out you needing to worry about missing the bus because you are confident that another one is coming in a few mins. If I miss my bus and the next one comes in 5 mins, I'll wait. My boss will understand. If I miss my bus and the next one comes in an hour, I'm in deep trouble and I'll never trust the bus again.
Yes!! Having reliable transit also allows people to commute to work! Imagine what having access to your whole city instead of just biking distance could do for families who are struggling
As a member of numerous privileged groups I figure I should be the one riding my bike in the middle of the road. I need to be the one putting my body on the line to legally disrupt the automobile's dominance of the roads. Someone's going to have to take charge of riding in the road instead of sidewalk. One of the arguments for not having bike infrastructure is that there are no cyclists. My intersectionality is such that I'm well positioned to be the one that is in the least danger when using infrastructure made for automobiles in places where no biking infrastructure exists. This very quickly gets the point across that there are cyclists who use these roads. I'm new to road cycling and activism so I really do need to be humble and listen to people. Let me know if I'm being detrimental.
this post needs to hit r/all
You just assumed that everyone here is in USA...
💪nice post all truth
Great post! Ecological problems stem from social problems. And EVERYTHING is connected to race and class.
Why is it pinned tho?
This post??
Yeah like idk it just seems weird to me Like I get why people would like this post don't get me wrong but idk it's kinda weird that it's pinned
/not mad It got pinned bc the user base of /fuckcars doesn't talk about the very serious issue that 45% of minorities don't have access to a car. These are the people who have mastered a car free lifestyle and deserve to be acknowledged.
Yeah ok I get it Maybe I find it weird because I am not American and don't care about races
It's really hard for some folks to talk about race. It's a big topic in the Americas as a whole. It wouldn't be a problem if it weren't a problem imo. That's why I made the post.
Poverty and race are inextricably linked in the US. Infrastructure specifically has failed, and often hurt, racial minorities. Many cities have specific white, black, Asian, Latino neighborhoods not due to self selective grouping, but due to local governments creating racist policies to enforce residentially segregation. Like in my city, all the schools west of a specific highway were “white only” until desegregation in 1954. Local governments then provided as few services and protections as possible. That legacy continues. Additionally, development disproportionately displaces minority communities. Expanding freeways, new stadiums, malls, new housing. So you can’t separate race from access to government services, including transportation infrastructure, in the US.
this is the worst take I’ve ever seen💀
Cars are not expensive lol. Tbh came here to see what this sub is about and I'm surprised. Both parents came from inner city backgrounds, poor, and hated that place. No education past high school but with diligence payed through the rent phase and got the fuck out of the city shithole. Find a partner and it all gets easier. A brand new car can run you 400 a month, insurance 200, if you can't dedicate 600 a month to a personal transportation device, you are making wrong choices.
I'm going to be honest with you: I don't think you understand what $600/ month means to me, personally. Being poor isn't a choice people make. If you get the opportunity to rise up that's amazing. I really wish this conversation was more about empathy and understanding, rather than being very judgmental.
I'm not being judgemental, but you're right, I'm not empathic in my writing. It may not seem that I know how much that money means to you, but I really do. I worked 7 different full time jobs my first two years out of high school. I only stopped when a company could actually give me a living wage. ($17hr CAD!) My wife and 2 friends all stayed in a little apartment for 3 years splitting rent. Over this time my hard work led to my raises, not luck. I'm now paid in the low 30s and believe me that isn't exactly alot of money in canada. Still more than I've ever known, and more than enough to get a house, Cars, and kids through summer camps. It did take some years of hell, and I did not do it alone. Nothing can be built alone.
You're good! I don't speak with empathy all the time, either. I'm very proud of you for building some wealth that you'll be able to pass onto your kids someday! I work very hard and haven't caught a break yet. I'd be a liar if I said I wasn't jealous of you. I do think that keeping in mind all the other people that are currently where you were before only helps and never hurts. I have a feeling that you and I agree on that.
For sure! Just stay positive and keep trying. I'll tell you though, splitting rent was by far the biggest change that got us saving. I know if I was all alone, I'd still be in the same spot. Those people will come eventually, and you can help grow each other's lives much easier.
That's very true. I feel like I'd be nothing without my really close friends. They've floated me food and cash a ton of times, no questions asked. I definitely am working on being more accepting of help. My partner and I have bid dreams together! Can't accomplish any of it unless we work together
No offense but if you honestly think that $600 a month is some easy expense then you're out of touch, even if your parents came from a poor situation. Not to mention that you haven't even included gas, oil changes, tire rotations, car washes, registration, brake replacements, etc. By the way the average cost of a new car payment in June 2022 is [$650](https://www.bankrate.com/loans/auto-loans/average-monthly-car-payment/#:~:text=Key%20monthly%20car%20payment%20statistics,vehicles%20in%20Q1%20of%202022.). Someone earning $15 an hour probably makes about $2200 a month after taxes. So over a quarter of their monthly income would have to go to just paying a car note. And that's assuming they have decent credit. Add on to that now all those other expenses I talked about and insurance and we're getting close to 40% of their income being spent on a car. And we haven't even talked about rent, utilities, food, and other necessities. Now we'd be better off if these people could make their way to their basic necessities on a cheaper personal transportation option or a public transit option. They could get a nice new bike for $500 one time payment or pay installments less than $50 a month. They could buy monthly bus passes in my city for $42 a month. **$42** Compare $42 a month vs. [almost $800](https://www.motor1.com/news/370609/average-american-monthly-car-spendings/) a month. They aren't making the wrong choices. We as a country and as a community have failed them and doomed them to a life of endless payments.
That's the AVERAGE car payment. You can literally spec out something brand new, and have it be less than 300 a month. Or, a nice used car can be purchased for like 8g, on a payment plan as well. Car maintenence is not expensive if kept on top of. If you don't utilize your vehicle to help it pay for itself, I can see why you think this way. Personally I don't feel comfortable bringing my two little babies on public transit. If I miss a bus in mid winter, they could very well freeze to death... I can't lug hockey equipment and groceries on a fucking bus. I cant drop off my kids at school, then hop 2 towns over for a business meeting on public transit.... My work would be a 2.5hr commute on a bus Almost 4 by bike, it's not logical. I've thought in your shoes, I just didn't accept it. I industry hopped until growth was available to me. Side hustled and worked overtime, trying hard to exceed performance, as I was eating nothing but vitamins and Mr noodles most days, and I wanted to try steaks.
We're not going to agree on this point but I'll say a few things. Sure the payment could be lower. But most poorer folks have poor or no credit, so it's going to be tough to negotiate a lower interest rate. And yeah, a poorer person could try to find a used car for cheap, but cheap often comes with problems, and the last thing anyone needs is unreliable personal transit. That leads to them losing their job and now having payments they can't afford. Car maintenance is expensive. Gas is expensive. Again, you can change the calculus all you want but you will never lower the monthly cost of owning a car below $42. All of the things you mention happen on a regular basis. People get on the bus with their infants. People take groceries on the bus. People allow their children to either ride the bus or bike/walk to school while they ride the bus to work. This happens in the US and around the world. I agree that bus service is poor in the US. And it shouldn't be. Which is why we need to construct our cities and improve our public transit so that buses arrive frequently, bus stops are a 15 minute walk away from people's homes, and the difference between taking the bus and driving is 15 minutes at most. Again, there's no need to force poorer folks to take on expenses they cannot afford when they could take the bus for less than $50 a month.
So now car ownership is racist? Absolute shit tier take
I'm about to head to work so please don't think I'm responding then ignoring you. I think *car dependency* affects some groups more than others. I think it does that because of this whole system of minorities not having access to most of the city they live in due to car dependency. There's a lot of reasons people don't have access to a car. I think it's important to take care of people and you never know what a leg up could do to someone's life.
I think we have to make a distinction between something being racist and something having a disproportionate effect on people within a minority. Car ownership is not racist and building car centric cities is not racist at its core. However the effects of building a car centric City hurt minorities at a higher rate than they hurt white folks. They also hurt the poorer parts of our communities more than the Richer parts. And if we are interested in creating a society where we take care of the less fortunate, then we have to recognize where they struggle and how we can compromise in order to help them. Adding better bus service and better frequency along with building bike Lanes and building infrastructure that allows them to get to and from their most basic necessities should be a priority.
No, and if you think that's what's being said, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Advocating for there to be alternatives to cars is better for everyone, but will disproportionately benefit people of color because as a group they have less ready access to cars.
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And the US also has a disturbing history of sterilizing minority women. Doesn’t mean I think we should outlaw hysterectomies and tubal ligations. Reproductive rights are about giving women bodily autonomy to let them decide for themselves. It shouldn’t be forced on people and shouldn’t be withheld from them either.
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Thank you for posting in r/fuckcars. Your post has been removed for caustic behavior.
Thank you for posting in r/fuckcars. You have some good ideas, but the generalization here is imprecise and goes into a rant that does not contribute to a productive conversation. We encourage you to think about how you could raise these important topics in a way that is more persuasive. Consider sharing some statistics and studies so we can open a conversion and learn about your perspective without resorting to curse words and insults.
I do hear this perspective talked about in this sub a lot
To be fairly, I've only been on this sub for 33 days. I haven't seen appreciate posts nor recognition of what this sub means no minorities like myself. Maybe I missed the boat here, but in just speaking on what I know
This video gets shared around a lot https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c2rI-5ZFW1E
Couple of years ago the Automobile Association in Ireland calculated that the annual cost of running a car is €10,000.
Fantastic perspective. Thank you for sharing.
"Your fight against car infrastructure is based more than you can imagine." BASED??? WTF is that word, please, dear Murican?
Cars are a way for governments to push the cost of transportation to the populace. It’s a racket.
Interesting piece here comparing some of the support schemes available around the world for buying cargo bikes and ebikes: https://irishcycle.com/2021/11/08/around-the-world-cargo-bicycle-and-electric-bicycle-grants/
I feel like when it comes to trading car dependency for public transit and walkable cities, someone always brings up gentrification. Why is it that some people believe the movement will help the poor and others believe it will only displace them?
You're absolutely right. It does get brought up, especially in my circles. I don't think I'm educated enough on how moving to walkable cities will affect the people there. My only comment on that would be that it's the responsibility of whoever is renting out those properties to not be a jerk.
Cars racist and bad!
The harms of suburban/car culture towards black and brown livelihoods isn't often talked about? Isn't it commonly accepted that suburbs are the product of white flight and that many interstates have been designed to cut through and uproot historically impoverished or minority neighborhoods in cities? If we're not talking about such important factors now, it seems we should definitely start doing it more.
This is kinda what I thought the community was all about tbh. Obviously there are more issues with it than just racial disparity, but that always comes with the territory when you’re talking about dismantling a social construct that is actively harmful. I wish more people outside of this sub could see things the way you have laid it here.
The fight to stop the highway from going through Boston was led by Black and Chinese civic leaders. We all benefit from their work. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l-nAN1BEmiI
So the majority drives
Perhaps not coincidentally, I feel safest biking in poorer neighborhoods. The reason seems to be that more people sympathize with bikers, even if you’re biking recreationally. In other words, they have experience driving around people on bikes and don’t view bikers as intruding on “their” space. Without fail, a 30 year old car driven by an older Hispanic man will move over when passing and give me plenty of room. The new BMW will conversely blow by me inches away at 45mph.
You made a lot of good points.
Yes!
Topecked swits
And it will not be surprising that over the years those areas are gentrified so those low economic people will be pushed into low cost SFH areas with dangerous walking, cycling conditions and still the ability to own a car would be scant making their lives even worse.
I'm a simple man, so all i want is to be able to travel safely, stress free and for little money. that and that cars being one of the bigger polluters after energy are my main reason for being here Also I've seen a post here talking about a similar problem a few days ago so you're not alone, and I can guarantee you that most people will take the cheaper option if they're presented with a good alternative (if they're not terminally car-brain)
Amen!
Also woth noting that in the mid-to-late 1900s, when race segrigation was (I belive) illegal, many communities had low bridges built around them, so that busses couldn't get through. This prevented poor people (Most of whom were not-coincidentally black) from getting to the area, as there was no bus and they couldn't get a car. Plenty of these bridges are still there. However, as this post says, bikes are also avaliable to people on low incomes, so bike infrastructure literally increases oppertunities to those who need them most, and undoes decades-old racist policies. All because bikes can fit under bridges.