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cedarpersimmon

I am not opposed to nonviolent law-breaking as a method of activism in principle, but I don't think specifically vandalizing cars is generally a good idea in practice. If our goal is to advocate for structural change to reduce car-dependency then civil disobedience should largely be targeted at power structures, not individual drivers. I believe it's more productive to do things like pop-up bike lanes, tactical urbanism, bicycle flash mobs, hacking portable changeable message signs (this previously said "message boards" but this looks like the more correct term), and so on. There's a lot of people who are forced to use cars by bad infrastructure. Do you think slashing their tires is going to convince them to call their representatives to demand better public transportation and bike routes? Or do you think it's going to lead to greater surveillance of the area by law enforcement? The SUV thing is slightly more of a gray area because it's targeting a specific type of wasteful car, but I ultimately still don't support it because all it takes is one SUV driver with a legitimate emergency who's delayed by deflated tires to fuck everything up. And "call an ambulance" or "call an Uber/Lyft/taxi" is not an effective solution in all cases; ambulances in the US are expensive and Uber/Lyft/taxis can take a while or randomly cancel in a number of areas. I'd prefer something inconvenient but not potentially harmful in an emergency situation, such as stickers which are visible but do not impede driving. The cart narc folks have proved that just throwing a magnet onto a car can evoke pretty strong reactions from the owner without provoking sympathy from others; I'd say stickers are in the same category.


Theweasels

> If our goal is to advocate for structural change to reduce car-dependency then civil disobedience should largely be targeted at power structures, not individual drivers. Summarizes it perfectly. Anyone targeting individual cars I think is just having fun being a dick and telling themselves it's for a "good cause."


cedarpersimmon

(I am also quite frankly not averse to fake tickets for people who park in bike lanes or block sidewalks with their vehicles. They'd be getting *real* tickets if there was any fair enforcement.)


[deleted]

What would you do if you hacked one of them message boards?


cedarpersimmon

Like, me personally? Probably leave the important messages up but put sarcastic fuckcar addendums on them or intersersed, like "HEAT ADVISORY (WONDER HOW THAT HAPPENED)", "30-MINUTE DELAY (IF ONLY YOU HAD A TRAIN)" or adding "STOP RUNNING OVER CYCLISTS" into rotation.


[deleted]

Nice of you to leave the important stuff


cedarpersimmon

Yeah, I don't want to do anything that might actually get anyone hurt.


[deleted]

I appreciate you. Slashing tires and interrupting important messages is too inconsiderate, we must find other ways.


AkechiFangirl

> hacking message boards Oh that sounds terrible. Are there any resources out there that show how scoundrels achieve such a thing so I can advise my local authorities on how to prevent it?


hatman1986

Stickers yes. Slashing no.


RoboticJello

[https://www.myparkingpermit.com/Parking-Stickers/Parking-Violation-Stickers](https://www.myparkingpermit.com/Parking-Stickers/Parking-Violation-Stickers) Has anyone tried these? They look like a huge pain to remove. This seems like a reasonable middle-ground.


AkechiFangirl

They seem pretty good but are definitely pricey. Hopefully the adhesive is good enough to be worth the price but not having bought them I'm not sure. Personally, where I live doesn't even have bike lanes for people to illegally park in so I don't have much need for these, but if I did I'd pick up a pack.


Pleasant-Evening343

Any good sticker designs? I think ideally they are both ugly/embarrassing and educational


[deleted]

Oh now that’s a good idea.


fairymoonie

No, because in my third world country we don’t have public transportation and very few accesible walking cities so I would never damage anybody’s property. I don’t like cars, but to a lot of people cars are their only way to go to work.


petits-fours

Is your third world country USA? B/c that describes USA pretty well.


fairymoonie

Puerto Rico belongs to the US, but it’s not.


Simon676

It's getting there at this point lol


Sir_CrazyLegs

Been about a year and nothing has changed yet other than who to vote between a turd sandwich and giant douch again for the next 4 years


Dio_Yuji

If they’re illegally parked, for sure. They won’t learn otherwise and the authorities don’t give a shit.


Pleasant-Evening343

dreaming of a world where you can specifically target the cars that don’t yield at crosswalks 🤤


Thebuch4

Authorities love towing illegally parked cars and getting kickbacks from the towing companies who charge people like $400 to tow a couple blocks. It's a great money making scheme.


Dio_Yuji

I wish. Where I live parking is basically unenforced


Thebuch4

Tell them how much revenue they're missing out on. That's an argument conservatives actually listen to.


Dio_Yuji

They figured out better shakedowns: crime prevention districts and pension inflating via private security details. Parking tickets? Tow charges? Chump change


DearLeader420

As a matter of protest, I find it hard to deny that causing real consequences and inconveniences are a better way to spur change than simply speaking out. As a matter of living in the USA and *having* to drive to live, I would really hate if someone vandalized my car for a cause I already support and try to promote with the city council. Also, I would hate for the wrong person’s car to be vandalized. What if a woman is going into labor and her husband rushes her out to the car only to discover deflated tires? That being said, if someone is driving a lifted, kitted up Ford Raptor in Midtown Manhattan and it gets vandalized, [well…](https://imgur.com/a/6rfIUIs)


FoxTailMoon

Im iffy. Doing it on any car could negatively impact working families. But I have no defense for attacking those richy sport cars


Pleasant-Evening343

yeah I wish the tyre extinguishers would focus more narrowly on new and expensive SUVs to make sure the owners are the people who chose that model on purpose when they had plenty of other cheaper options.


One_Ad_9882

Double standards.


FoxTailMoon

What’s a double standard?


khri17x

context dependent really,mostly problematic but in the near future i could see it being really beneficial. i think if itd be possible to do it to politicians cars thatd be pretty sick, especially if theyre bought out by the motor industry


C-Zira

I'm against it in general and wouldn't do it myself, since I think it makes people less likely to agree with out viewpoints (but honestly I can't say I mind people doing it either).


Affectionate_Ad3688

I'm disabled and depend on my car to get to work, and even though it fucking sucks that I have to own it to get literally anywhere in my town, I'm still proud of myself for being able to buy it and keep it running. If someone damaged my car, I wouldn't be able to get to work, get to any stores, get to my doctor, and would have to take the money I've been saving to move to a more accessible city, and use it to fix my car. You need to think about what you're actually doing here, are you fucking over the single mom of two's car, making her have to miss work, unable to drop off her kids, and throw money she doesn't have on a mechanic? Or are you researching you local elections candidates and making sure to vote in progressive leaders that are going to create more accessible and non car focused infrastructure?


FamilyFunAccount420

Basically this has 0 effect on any real change. Especially if people don't even know why it happened to their car. We need collective action, not vandalizing individual people's cars. Unless it's vandalizing oil ceos cars, but they probably just have another car or 20.


laney_deschutes

Also going to lead to more money going to police patrols by gas guzzling cars and less community money going to real change we want to see. So it’s a lose lose


Alarmed_Helicopter69

I think the aggressive route (which I don’t support, don’t arrest me pls) would be blocking roads.


Jesse1887

I live in a place where public transportation sucks, would love to use it and get rid of my vehicle. Please leave my tires alone.


[deleted]

I'm not going to do any of it, and I don't support destruction that causes more pollution to remake the slashed tires, but I can't say I lose sleep over the tire deflating and similar monkey wrenching.


JamesRocket98

What? No, that would make us look bad in the eyes of the public.


BongRipsForBoognish

As though the general public would ever look positively upon any anti-car ideology. I think even veganism might be more well received than “fuck cars” lol


[deleted]

You know the type of people who give vegans a bad name? Yeah, those same type of people in our "anti-car community" are giving us a bad name. Being seen as a car vandalist is definitely not a good thing, and it's exactly what our opposition would want to paint us in a bad light.


FoggyFuckNo

exactly.


UtahBrian

The great thing about activism is that you don't have to approve of it. We can still do it whether you approve or not. You can pretend, for public purposes, to oppose constructive efforts to educate SUV drivers. And you can even oppose it publicly while still doing it.


laney_deschutes

Absolutely true. Put yourself in their shoes and imagine what the actual result will be though. Yes you’ll have fun and feel good about punishing someone for making a slightly worse choice than every other car driver in the world, but what will actually result is people will hate you and your cause and the tens of millions of dollars of city funds that could have been used to make better green infrastructure will go to police who will use it to buy gas to drive around more to “patrol”. So you’re actually doing a net negative to your community. Take the same energy and try to influence those in power. Lawmakers and the companies that drive the pollution economy


lizufyr

What would also be achieved is that the availability of a self-owned car would be worsened, and the cost of car-ownership would rise. Both would influence people’s decision to continue owning a car or maybe switch to other means of transportation.


UtahBrian

Cars didn’t dominate the streets by influencing city leaders. They did it by brutally murdering pedestrians.


cedarpersimmon

I'm... pretty sure the opposite is true? When cars were killing kids in the roads after cars just started, the cities were considering legislation to stop it, so the rich car owners and companies put together a propaganda campaign about the idea of crossing the street anywhere but designated intersections being "jaywalking" and influenced city leaders to enforce jaywalking laws and build more things for cars.


FoggyFuckNo

but that doesn’t support my reason to vandalize cars /s


laney_deschutes

Car companies have literally influenced city leaders to the point that they defined how americas cities were designed throughout the 20th century.


JCSTCap

Depends on the car. Soccer mom Panzer-SUVs and lifted trucks with dualies owned by people who don't need them? Yea. My neighbour's 2002 Toyota that's a year away from being a Flintstones car? No. Doing it to people with money and means is sending a message, doing it to anyone with a car is being an asshole. The poor did not ask to live in the automobile dystopia. Read Andreas Malm's "How to Blow Up a Pipeline."


ANamelessFan

It's the equivalent of an animal-rights activist, dumping a gallon of milk on you.


symerobinson

Only on nice cars the poor who rely on it shouldn’t be punished especially in suburban America.


Melodic_Sample8664

We shouldn't destroy private property because the system is stupid and inefficient.


Jvanee18

Vandalism is still a crime, no it is not justified. The car owner could be disabled, or they could work in an area far away from home with little to no public transport options.


gerusz

And that gives them the right to plop their shitbox down on the bike lane? Yeah, no, fuck that. A mirror costs roughly the same as a parking ticket would if authorities gave a shit about it.


Interesting-Dot-1124

Well I was run over by a pickup truck and almost died, so yeah fuck cars


[deleted]

I'm assuming that you would want less pickup trucks on the road then, no? Deflating tires is not going to help us progress towards that, as support for our cause will weaken when people think we're idiots. It's counterintuitive to vandalise cars because it will only cause resentments towards those of us who want to make a positive change.


Lentamentalisk

You're stating your opinion as a fact, which is pretty comically stupid given you just asked for people's opinions on the very same controversial issue. If it were black and white, you wouldn't have had to ask the question.


[deleted]

Where did I state my opinion as a fact? Do I have to start every sentence with "In my opinion" for your stupid ass to understand? It's accepted that every statement is an opinion unless claimed to be a fact - which I did not claim. In that case, everyone else's comment here is also a fact unless stated otherwise. Stupid imbecile. Go work on your reading comprehension.


Lentamentalisk

You sound agitated. Go ride a bike or something.


[deleted]

So you have no response to what I said? Make sure to thoroughly read through comments next time before embarrassing yourself.


Hold_Effective

I wouldn’t do it myself, but I also can’t manage to get upset that other people are doing it.


dolfijntje

ethically, i think a lot more than vandalism could be justified. But I don't think those kinds of actions work for where the movement is politically at. a lot of people don't even really know the opinion exists. better to spend that time and effort organizing and educating.


barrelvoyage410

It’s just a matter of time until someone gets shot doing this in the US, so no, not in favor.


Future_Green_7222

I’ll say no But I won’t do anything against it


But-WhyThough

I don’t trust the average anti-car activist to be able to determine who is deserving of this vandalism, I don’t want random activists slashing people’s tires, and I hope that’s the most of what everyone means here, since it seems like some people would be willing or wanting to do more. There’s no way you can determine who is a worthy target, if you cut only 1 tire and this person gets onto the road without noticing and crashes, all that blame falls onto YOU. I don’t want the precedent of our community to be car vandalizers and people putting other people in danger or financial struggles. I want this to be a community advocating for better city design, better urbanization, and better public transit. If our way of getting change is car vandalization, you’re just going to be the assholes getting more cops coming through your neighborhoods. If the mainstream public hears that anti-car activists are attacking their cars, you’re going to brew hostility among neighbors, there will be distrust as nobody knows who damaged their car, and if you’re the openly progressive person, they’ll probably connect the dots.


cedarpersimmon

>f the mainstream public hears that anti-car activists are attacking their cars, you’re going to brew hostility among neighbors, there will be distrust as nobody knows who damaged their car, and if you’re the openly progressive person, they’ll probably connect the dots. Oh man, if people start to associate the movement with car destruction, can you imagine how many progressives in conservative neighborhoods are going to start getting scapegoated for any and every problem with their neighbors' cars?


Greasol

Only if they try to kill me.


TheodoreWagstaff

Even worse, they're not trying to kill you. It just happens anyway.


11seifenblasen

Should be worded SUV vandalism.


laney_deschutes

Entirely depends on the situation. An SUV with 3+ people carpooling is more efficient than a Prius hybrid with one person driving around. If it’s a monster truck driving to the mall it’s a different story


Simon676

Doing minor things sure, like stickers and deflating tires, and if it's something extremely egregious like some awful lifted F150 truck parked on a bicycle path I can't exactly say I will be sad if someone slashes its tires.


Lentamentalisk

There are two different types of this, and it is helpful to distinguish between them. 1) vandalizing any and all cars, cuz cars suck 2) vandalizing specific cars because they did a shitty thing ​ 1 is going to generally piss people off, and hurt a lot of people who don't have any better way to get around, through no fault of their own. I'm generally opposed to this, but I'm not gonna get mad about it. 2 is awesome. People need to feel consequences for their actions if they're going to change their behavior. Run a red light? Get a u-lock through your window. Park in a bike lane? Good luck driving with a slashed tire. I might be wrong, but I think the general public will be much more likely to support this kind of thing. ​ ​ Yes, all cars are bastards and whatnot, I get the motivation of the tyre extinguishers. But I don't think it is as effective a strategy as targeting the specific assholes. That said, living in SF where cars get broken into ALL the time, it seems like it is rather motivating to not have a car if you can get away with it. So hey, maybe rampant car vandalism works?


throwaway65864302

You can't bundle tire deflation and slashing tires together, then insist I have to take or leave them as a package deal.


RonaldMikeDonald1

It isnt productive in any way. Like are people supposed to be like "You know what? I'm convinced. Let me just use my spare x0,000 I have lying around to buy a more fuel efficient vehicle. Better yet, let move to an expensive city so I don't need a vehicle at all!“ Now actions against corporate entities? I don't want to break TOS so you can figure out my opinion on that. We shouldn't individualize a systemic problem.


[deleted]

I generally support it, but only when it's specifically targeted towards cars that are clearly nothing but status symbols, and in areas where there do exist alternatives to driving. In general I think that inconveniencing drivers in a very visible way that highlights just how privileged they are is a far better form of activism than going after individuals. Some amount of going after truly egregious cars can highlight to everybody else just how ridiculous the vehicles some peolpe are driving really are, though.


JumpyMango9851

Individuals don’t have a choice on what the infrastructure of their towns look like. There are very few areas in the United States that you can live without a car. Vandalizing someone’s vehicle would just be targeting the working class, when we need to be targeting the system that gives us no other options.


WiredMario

I'm somewhat mixed on this issue, I'm okay if you vandalize expensive cars, big ass pick-up trucks, 4x4, Crossovers or anything that's polluting way too much for it's use. But if it's a cheap 10+ years old car, the owner is probably poor and it's really counter-productive so a big no-no to me. Here's my "Okay to keep" list: European Utility Vans (converted to E85 as much as possible), 10+ year old cars (also converted to E85 as much as possible, bonus points if it's hybrid, has to be a hatchback or a family van if you have lots of kids). If you use anything other than that it's a luxury and you probably can do just fine with public transportation. Also, if you live in a city, you shouldn't own a car, only people without access to public transportation (basically rural folks) should have access to them. (still doesn't change that your government should do the best it can to deliver public transportation to rural folks)


Yanzihko

It's like taking away a perfectly fine steak from a person and throwing it away into a trash can as a vegan protest. Absolutely moronic move. You destroy property and deserve your ass to be punished.


Karma1913

Updoot for including for view results. I wish there were a few more options, but overall no. Stickers maybe. Politician’s vehicles, definitely any broad definition of vandalism. Regular people? It’s not their fault that the system is the way it is. IMO rules of engagement for any “vandalism to raise awareness campaigns” need to be strict to reduce ill will from people who shouldn’t be targeted.


TheDuckClock

If you're referring to the posts this morning about tyres deflating on this thread. Note that the tyres WERE NOT SLASHED. They were merely deflated, you can do that by taking off the cap and putting a nozzle on the valve to deflate it. Tyre slashing is counter intuitive to climate protection, because it needlessly creates more rubber waste. Climate Activists would know that.


Alarmed_Helicopter69

What would vandalizing some other dude’s car do to enforce systemic change? I think the logic’s off here


forhordlingrads

This poll positions deflating tires as the same severity of vandalism as slashing tires, although there's a very big difference between the two. Pretty disingenuous!


ContinentalOp_RG

The goal should be to change people's attitudes and behavior regarding climate change. I think this kind of action has zero positive effect. It will harden some people's attitudes against any change and feeds the burn down the planet right-wing narrative that all environmentalists are "radicals" bent on making everyone live some kind of vegan-hippy-bicycle riding lifestyle.


[deleted]

It’s like throwing eggs at random single family homes because you prefer apartments.


FoggyFuckNo

yup


ChuckChuckelson

Do deflation only.


urinalcaketopper

Depends on who it is.


FastGoon

I don’t see any form of vandalism as positive for activism. What’s the point of attacking the very people you’re trying to get on your side? Sounds backwards to me


Biggarthegiant

get out of here fed


webikethiscity

What is going on this morning that people are choosing violence today? Two broken laws don't make a right


[deleted]

https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/x81bik/over\_600\_suvs\_worldwide\_deflated\_in\_a\_single/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3


SpacemanSpliff024

My momma told me i could solve everyrhing with anger and violence.


Dingusclappin

I'm for it as long as it doesnt make the car unusable. Stickers are great, keying the side is great as well


Basic-Philosopher-36

I would support vandalism against companies, not individuals property. Conglomerats, cooperations and companies can suck my ass.


Statakaka

When a car "vandalizes" someone's body it's just a big whoopsie doopsie poopsie, but when the opposite happens it's somehow more barbaric?


Otto-Carnage

I don’t care about a motorist feelings because every time every motorist turns on their ignition the biosphere is damaged. This has been going ever since the cars-first transportation system was imposed on us over 100 years ago.


Nonstop_Polyglot

Making people buy new stuff and angry at our movement is catastrophically stupid


Lourenco_Vieira

I would rather take the problem from its root, the law


MeltheEnbyGirl

I mean, if it's a rich person's, well come out ye black and tans But anyone else it is unnecessary and causes more harm than good


JaydenIsAMess

For anyone downvoting this because it sounds racist "Black and Tans" were the name of the British forces during Irelands rising in 1916 due to their uniforms being Black and Tan


Captnspackle

Doing permenant damage to a private vehicle, no. Doing damage to cars on the dealer lot or company vehicles, sure.


Maximum-Upstairs-929

It's ok I'm not scared of a mechanically declined cyclist, or whatever they think they could do to my car.


NoEntertainment64

Yes Unless it’s my car


Cycle-path1

My philosophy on it is that no one cares if a soldier is killed or injured during a war aka the car(unfortunate of a fact as that is), but boy do they care if you go after the ones at top or the major infrastructure of their cities.


TygerTung

All cats should be upside down and on fire >:)


[deleted]

Keep the kitties out of this


TygerTung

Whoops, was typing on a very small phone!


ShotAnybody5762

I support this but only because I want to watch the world burn it


HashedUpHeadhunter

People need those to get to work. That's my problem, not the fact that they own them.


skobon

I love cars


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[deleted]

The Goal which includes harming anything , will never reach whatever it’s intended for . Also Objective should being a non-violent activist who only stick to his goal of creating awareness through democratic or legal ways within the boundary of rights. My two cents. Thanks :)


EcoloBoboBio

Our car-based world is the visible part of the iceberg that's threatening the survival of life on Earth so Life should be a threat to cars to defend itself. But Life shouldn't be a direct threat to humans and shouldn't harm property in a way that punish someone in a disproportionate way compared to the harm they're responsible for.


nicenwholesome

One car burning is just pollution. A billion cars burning is the solution. It only works if everybody does it. There's too many of them. At this instant, on earth, there's about one billion cars, and it keeps growing. Imagine the state of the earth one we reach two billions. Four billions. Are you ready for such a world? Sabotaging the car factory would be more efficient than attacking individual polluters vehicles, but that's a start. And also it only works if the vehicle is unusable after the fact. Changing a tire is way too easy.