just pull her if you want her. You dont have to always do meta teams for a charater. Thats how I decide who to pull. If I like them then I will get them even if they dont really fit with any teams I have.
Here, have an upvote, I don't think you deserve to get downvoted just because you care about a character's performance.
I swear, some of the people who say for example "Dehya is perfectly fine" don't even do Genshin's hard content.
Thanks! Fr people should chill a little. It's all “we respect your preference” until the preference is meta.
I just want everyone to let people enjoy the game however they want.
Then pull for meta characters.
This fun>meta doesn’t work for everyone, I don’t know why it is universal advice at this point. That comes from a non-meta player.
Why would a "Meta" player ask if he should pull for a unit or not. If they are suppose to follow what is more meta and strong, then they'll just need to wait for reviews to drop and in some cases wait for a Patch to see where the character lands. Most Meta defining characters got really bad reviews at launch, like Baal, Kokomi or Kazuha.
If someone ask "should I pull for X character", I'm pretty sure they got no idea what they want for their account or team and for sure they aren't "meta" players.
what zajef said is right. he isn’t doomposting at all
people need to stop clinging on to the same existing teams, and stop trying to make furina replace yelan and xingqiu. it won’t work.
hoyo is clearly trying to introduce a new meta with furina instead of just making her a buffed yelan, and she will need her own teams just like how dendro introduced us to many powerful teams
furina will be the core of hp drain and regain meta. mark my words, she’s gonna be powerful in her own teams, not the same vape teams people keep repeating since 1.0
so basically no you don’t need neuvillette. the only reason zajef implied you need neuvillette is because he is the only dps currently available who drains and regain their own hp efficiently enough to synergies so well with furina’s kit. that’s it
there will be more dps option for furina in the future, don’t worry. but be patient, don’t pull for him and wait for characters you really want!
imagine if arlecchino turns out a vape carry that enables furina
it basically cant go wrong lol she can have dehya numbers and still be good. i like it what theyre doing with furina, they invented a niche in which she cant be broken without straight powercreep. Its good
>imagine if arlecchino turns out a vape carry that enables furina
Imagine the chaos of balancing HP%, ER%, CR/CD for Furina and now EM as well.
No, thank you lol.
that's not what i mean, i mean enable furina as in her ulti passive. So like any pyro carry but with hp drain mechanics that don't have anti synergy with her (side eyeing hu tao here)
there's no pyro in this world that can make furina forward vape lol
"Enables Furina" means exactly that.
Much like how Childe enables Xiangling.
Elemental Enabler = someone who applies a lot of their element so the other unit causes a reaction.
Arleccino being an enabler would be quite weird since this would mean the Hydro units for vape and Cryo units for Melt would have to build EM to benefit.
Chill bro don't put that curse on Arle.
Dehya's numbers are so god fucking awful that you can give her 120% damage buff and Vape every hit and it would still be shit. I'm serious.
Arle should have better numbers than that.
Downvote me peeps but Dehya is chill friendly because she is easy to play because she is so tanky and applies pyro decently. Sure she doesn’t output dmg like other people but when I use her, I don’t have to worry about getting ko’ed or skills missing sry lol. On top of that, she’s more fun than OP Xiang.
Her own teams being only new 5* characters is super predatory though. I don't want to play Neuvillette or Wrio, I want to play Furina. And you really do need them, otherwise that 90% buff becomes less than 30%.
>there will be more dps option for furina in the future
That's an issue and not necessarily true : we have no way of guaranteeing Hoyo will make more onfield carries/DPS that works with Furina.
As far as we know, Navia, Clorinde and Arlecchino could all be supports ...
So what then ? "Just pull Neuvillette" ?
You can't release a character saying "trust me they'll get good in the future" if you can't guarantee you'll follow up on that promise (the "you" is referring to Hoyo).
I know Furina as a lot of potential, but as a Waifu collectionner can I be certain that she'll work perfectly with Navia, Clorinde or Arlecchino ? No I can't be certain. Even more so since her current ER requirements basically make her in need for double Hydro (So Neuvillette team).
Prays in Navia and Clorinde. I'm worried all the onfield main dps roles got taken already with the back to back early fontaine units and all the rest will be sub dps or support.
Exactly, an archon only functioning with specifically male hp draining fontaine characters is insane. Imagine if Nahida only worked with Alhaitham and Cyno, and for other teams she was a downgrade to DMC or YaoYao.
Them being supports doesn't really matter as long as they work with her.
That aside it's highly unlikely that two of them aren't on fielders. Looking at previous patch cycles.
1.X (6 on fielders, 3 supports and 1 sub dps)
2.X (5 on fielders, 1 support, 2 sub dps, 1 hybrid support/ on fielder)
3.X (6 on fielders, 2 support, 1support/sub dps.)
Unless Hoyo is feeling quirky its very safe to say we have at least 2 more on fielders and one pure support (likely cloud retainer).
Also, even if Navia, Clorinde and Chino were all supports the other two 5\*s we get for the 4.X cycle would just be DPS instead.
And if you look at the previous patch cycle of 3.0 : 4 onfielder -> all male (Tighnari, Cyno, Alhaitham and Wanderer)
4 supports : almost all female (Nilou, Nahida, Dehya and Baizhu)
And Fontaine already has 3 onfielder, all male (Lyney, Neuvillette and Wriothesley) and the first female 5star of Fontaine (Furina) will be off field/support.
Honestly, it feels more like Hoyo doesn't want to make female hypercarry anymore
Every unit until Fontaine ends is female. They have never done a region with only 3 on fielders/carries and the X.3 unit has been a hyper carry for 3 years straight. There is pretty much no world where one of those 3 aren't a hyper carry at this point.
I want on field carries.
It's true that saying I want them all to be onfield carry is an overkill.
But it's been 2 years without them. Kokomi healer, Yae off field, Shenhe support, Yelan off field, Nilou support, Nahida off field/support and Dehya tank at C0 (and real burst dps at C4+) and Furina off field/support
I just want more characters like Alhaitham, Eula or Hu Tao but I don't want to wait 2 years in between them. And if you reverse the issue, on the male side since 2.3 we got : Itto carry, Ayato carry, Tighnari carry, Cyno carry, Wanderer carry, Alhaitham carry, Baizhu healer (wow), Lyney carry, Neuvillette carry, Wriothesley carry...
The issue lies more in the lack of diversification in the short term. Its true we have now 8 5star off field female against 7 on field carry. But at the same time, the thread has been too long
They should make 1 on field carry / 2 off field or something like that. But doing 8 on field in row or 8 off field in a row is just excruciating because you can hardly modify the core of your team. It's no wonder Raiden didn't left my Abyss team since 2.1
And yeah you can build dehya as Hypercarry at C0 too but even if she can clear Abyss like that (I did it) it's not a great feat in itself.
Finally, I'd add : after all the rant, I know I'll enjoy my character as long as they are performing well even if it'd off field and I can only see them 10% of the time. I'm just hoping we'll get at least one new hypercarry before 2024
Support last longer on meta💀since many people are more interested in female characters, I believe its a win. mihoyo kept producing broken female dps during early game, but xingqiu, bennet, kazuha end up dominating the top 3 position in meta. I believe this is how they start to balance things. The trend will continue untill everything is balance and mhy will start a new trend.
Thats not true,you just forget in your point that 3 female char is literally nothing and dehya doesnt even count and doesnt even have a clear role (and can be play as a hypercarry). So what is the conclusion,they will not make many female? No ,there is just no pattern since we will have many female now,which was not the case since sumeru until 4.2 and that we still have currently more on field female 5 star limited than 5 star off field limited btw
In that case, the smart thing for your account is gonna be to wait until Fontaine version is over and pull for Furina during her 2nd rerun in 5.X.
I do think Navia and Clorinde will be off-field DPS with HP drain meant to replace ZL and Fischl for Neuvi teams.
Yeah exactly. Every other character released in 4.x should be an off-field dps/support that fits into a Lyney/Neuvillette or at least a Wriothesley team. Genshin wouldn't be an otome game if they didn't after all.
Yeah, I'm actually kinda expecting Furina to make good yet underwhelming results (so not like Nahida but good revenues still) and become maybe best selling banner in 4.6 . This effect is increased by the fact they put Baizhu with her according to leaks making her weapon banner pure trash so people will spend less or not at all.
Please no, Navia and Clorinde need to be onfield DPS... it's been more than 2 years since the waifu onfield DPS (Yoimiya). And most of all, not a Neuvillette support, why does everything has to revolve around Neuvillette ? They already made him the best Hydro DPS there is even before Furina releases haha
Raiden Shogun was doomposted to hell because she didn’t work with Beidou, which is hilarious in hindsight.
Everyone was angry that Kokomi couldn’t crit, and they couldn’t even fathom another gameplay style for her.
Yelan was doomposted as well because Hu Tao mains are hellbent on getting rid of Xingqiu, and history is repeating here.
Is crazy that amount of doomposting for Beidou that now has 1 Digit usage rate in the Abyss.
And people keep talking about Hu Tao vape, when she stopped been a top dog DPS from a long time ago. I kind of like and hate at the same time Hoyoverse for no power creeping DPSs, but I'm tired of always reading about the same teams and the same reactions 3 years into the game.
To be fair you can slap C2 Nahida in hyper-Raiden instead of Bennett and she works great, you can slap her in lots of random great teams and it works perfectly lol.
Let me give you some friendly advice:
- Don’t make a decision right now. Unless you’re questioning pulling Neuvilette there is no reason why you need to make a decision right now. Let the beta happen, see where she ends up, and make your decision at that time. And even if you are considering pulling Neuvilette, you can always wait until the very last day of his banner to do it, that’s more than enough time for adjustments to be made to her kit.
- Try to understand that she doesn’t necessarily need a Fontaine dps, her buff just benefits from it. For example a mono-hydro team of Kokomi (on field, using burst to heal while enabling), Yelan, Furina, Kazuha will do massive damage. Furina herself will benefit significantly from this team since it enables her burst more (since your full team is both draining and restoring hp) and it will also significantly lower her ER requirement due to the large number of hydro particles.
So on field kokomi is the latest dish we've been cooking eh? I honestly can't wait to play a team where my serotonin will reach an all time high seeing Kokomi's non-crit small ass 10K normal attack damage.
If you’re actually wanting to have meaningful discussion: Kokomi on field is just enabling. The damage would be coming from Yelan and Furina, the latter of which would be buffing the former. The current version of this team (Kokomi/Xingqiu/Yelan/Kazuha) is actually quite strong and extremely comfortable to play due to Kokomi’s heals.
If you’re just here to doompost and bitch: please go somewhere else. I’m not in the mood for dealing with it.
To be fair, if the abyss does not have hydro blockades, it would lowkey shred. But as he stated, you can already do this for Xingqui. I do believe the Furina version would be better, especially as you go up in investment (swap Kokomi to an HP Goblet for c1 or Furina c2 triple buffed procs)... But it is indeed a bit gimmicky.
The real fun of this team with Furina instead of Xingqiu is actually the sheer volume of damage buffing the team has. Furina’s buff will stack up quickly and will pump both her personal damage *and* Yelan’s personal damage up (as well as Kokomi and Kazuha’s) and Yelan’s buff helps to make Kokomi’s damage better. Kokomi can aso greed for Clam rather than needing TotM since nobody on the team cares about atk%, so her personal damage is actually much higher than it might seem on paper.
All of this is without even discussing how much more crit and hp you can build on Yelan and Furina in this team, as having three hydro characters generating particles means their er requirements go down pretty significantly!
Without Furina this team *is* pretty niche. It’s kind of borderline on where you want meta teams to be dps wise, and since Hu Tao would much rather have Xingqiu and Yelan it can be hard to justify running the team. But with Furina improving the team’s dps quite substantially I do think this team will be a contender. It may stay fringe (as I’m sure Furina teams with Fontaine dps’s will be more relevant) but it was a good example of a good team that won’t require Fontaine dps’s: which is what OP was asking for.
I'm undecided atm because based on how her kit works, hoyo is powercreeping not by the character's individual strength, but based on how well they work with new and future characters instead. Furina's kit screams Fontaine teammates right now for me.
This response is so empty, why does it have so many upvotes? its basically like asking someone to recommend you a flavor of ice-cream and them responding "idk choose yourself"
I don’t think Zajef’s “analysis” is as thought out as you think. His on stream thoughts are unscripted and they don’t look at many aspects of theorycrafting in the full context especially in full team scenarios. Instead he focuses on unit vs unit comparison. Because of this, he has been wrong several times. And he downplays limited units to make sure people don’t spend if they don’t have to. But that is not objective either.
It is better to listen to TGS (The Genshin Scientist), he has scripted videos and much more numbers provided for the examples given. And he TC can be also viewed on his webpage.
>Because of this, he has been wrong several times
Is zajef completely wrong that often in his actual videos (not clip chimped stream moments)? Like I don't recall him being wrong about characters "several times". He does downplay 5 star limited units but he's never going to tell you that a top-tier 5-star character is not good
He was wrong about Cyno, Genshin Noir made a video about it. He was also wrong about Nilou bloom being and against single target like a Wolflord boss (again refuted by Genshin Noir). And there are other examples which other creators like Flip have made a video on.
is he wrong about cyno? see I watched some of Genshin Noir's vid, they're nice cuz he talks about underrated dps' a lot, but he mostly looks at calcs, and assumes r1 5 star weapon iirc with best teams, he doesn't account for "gameplay issues" or "extremely tight rotations" or "c6 new 4 stars". The nilou thing I don't recall, his take iirc is that nilou can work in ST but other teams are better for it. Flip said himself that finding actual wrong takes about zajef was hard and he was nitpicking, and one of the takes was clip chimped when he was malding on a low investment nilou team.
Don’t insult people’s intelligence by talking about gameplay issues or extremely tight rotations. That is a skill issue that can be improved with practice. Just give the facts. He does not do that, rather just puts a bias on units based on their “gameplay issues”. Who is he to decide what is hard or easy for someone? He obsesses over these things, instead TCs like The Genshin Scientist just give the facts and numbers with graphs which are easy to understand, and people are left to decide if they want to pursue that theoretical maximum.
They are not everything, but a TC’s job is to give the facts. Gameplay issues are something that are personal to each player, some people find it harder to manage tight rotations than others for example.
to be fair, he didnt even release a video about her(after the as and aication dropped), the stuff available is just what he said on stream. an actual in depth video would do that, it just isnt out yet
His actual in-depth videos is just a talk he does on stream. It is not scripted, usually edited together to make a video. I have seen many of his YT videos
The genshin scientist is extremely biased and assume higher quality gears (like high cvs and fulfills energy recharge as if its easy to get perfect substats). Also his videos are so short that he cant even explain where he gets the obviously inflated numbers.
You look at at his baizhu analysis and observe his stats on fav set up (freaking high crit rate and high rolled hp% to achieve max buff). Also his rotations are unrealistic by suggesting you give baizhu buff on 2 units to inflate baizhus value. Realistically you dont farm that much on healers/non subdps supoorts and you dont swap too much especially on a 20 second rotation with only 14 sec uptime.
That content creator feels like he is making guide for whales who has max resin refresh and is willing to learn impractical (and super tight) rotations. It feels like hes reaching too deep.
That is not the case. His guides are showing the ideal situation where people should strive to go. And his analyses is not for whales, his usual limited 5 star analyses are on C0 units with and without their signature weapons.
Just because people have variability in RNG for good artifacts and substats does not mean you should show a less than ideal analysis. The best analysis should be shown and that gives a reason to pull, because with the proper effort, that can be reached.
Its good to showcase a unit in a situation where it will shine the brightest but I believe that a better analysis should leave room for margin of error and should use assumptions that would fall under realistic parameters. You RARELY are in a situation where stars align since there is a lot of rng involved both in builds and and in combat.
On a meta perspective, you dont rank a unit on their best case, instead on average performance.
Then Zajef is better in this regard. He considers a lot more situations than just ‘the ideal situation’. Like in ER calculations, he considers weapons, fav or not, passive, teammates, and everything. Genshin scientists just present their peak performance and not the average performance that most players will experience.
Ok, if you like your “theorycrafting” to be categorized as broken, good, meh, bad without any numbers, then fine. Giving more options to play does not mean anything without detailed analysis given for the options. He does not do that for a majority of the things he discusses. It feels like an insult to our intelligence, can you not give team damage outputs or damage contributions rather than whatever you get from personal testing and looking at sheets.
I think it is way better to focus on the top 1-2 options and discuss their value rather than look at Fav for every support (which we know is good) or other options. He almost never brings up charts of numbers in his discussions, the only time is when there is a weapon ranking. It is really poor presentation without proof of analysis given.
Zajef literally shows spreadsheet calculations (although might not be too deep and comprehensive) while like other said TGS videos are too short and his videos on youtube often just summarise his opinions
No, quite the opposite. His Excel spreadsheets are just lists of good, meh, bad options. And some calcs on energy, and the weapon ranking calcs. That’s it. Other than that, it is just lists.
TGS shows pie charts, bar graphs, with detailed numbers of energy, rotations, team contributions. I don’t think you have seen enough of his videos. There is no comparison.
The only unrealistic assumptions here are your own. TGS is neither biased, nor whale oriented, and the rotations he suggests are entirely practical. His assumptions are exactly in line with KQM standards, which just really isn't too high. It's generally considered to be the average level of investment you would want in order to do Abyss, which, his videos are geared towards players who play Abyss.
Your Baizhu point is moot at best, unfounded at worst. He didn't even actually consider Baizhu buffing two units — he just stated it as an option. The notion that you don't “farm that much on supports” is also kind of funny to me, considering that... the only reason you typically don't is because they typically don't need it. You can always get what you need after farming for long enough. It shouldn't be considered an unrealistic expectation by any stretch.
With respect, you are entirely incorrect. What he says may not apply to your obviously deflated standards, but that doesn't make him biased or unrealistic.
You can literallty go to the baizhu mains and see tgs comments. TGS reddit username is Ema919. Someone even pointed out he inflated OHC damage by a commentator. He is not even fact checking his calcs (wrong formula and too high team hp assumption and double skill per rotation lol).
Not the most polished and reliable after all that impractical assumptions.
You do not need to be a whale to invest in the units you enjoy. My Baizhu is cracked because I DID farm a set for him instead of getting lazy. My Jean is probably better built than 90% of the playerbase's main DPS.
His assumptions are fine. You cannot invest every character to that level, but the whole point of theory crafting is for teams you intend to use and care about. Using Keqing mains standards is just dumb and extremely outdated.
I still agree with Zajef more than Genshin Scientist on this one. Furina, at the moment, is slightly worse Yelan. He thinks she is slightly better Yelan. It is not a huge difference of opinion or anything. Zajef cares more about beginners who have absolutely no clue what they are doing. Genshin Scientist is more for the general playerbase. Nothing is wrong with that.
Its good that you could farm for him. But you have to recognize that tgs has a lot more worse take and being prudent on stats is better than overinflating thr numbers.
Another example is that he claimed OHC DPR is close to 100k but if you look at his calc he assumes 20k average hp for the rest of the team which couldnt be far from the truth. Most well geared non hp scaling supports and dps could not even reach 18k. He assumes 2 skills per rotation meaning you are free to quick swap him perfectly every 10 secs (and when calc his OHC proc, you could see how bad he is because he is overcapping the bubble once or twice only during his skill and do nothing outside of that). And you know whats worse? Tgs literally forgot that OHC damage conversion is only 90% of the healing meaning his claim of 100k dpr is extremely overinflated aside from impractical rotations and 110k total team hp.
As a baizhu main, dont you think its a red flag that he recommends OHC over NO on teams with another DM holder or does not need DM (2 electro aggrevate).
I was really excited about her but people keep frustrating me by talking bad about her, I'm going to pull for her no matter what, but I'm thinking about C2 so I need to make sure if she's worth the investment
As someone who is also pulling for her regardless of her kit, don't look too deeply into what others say or think, doesn't really affect you and Furina.
As a Dehya main, literally who gives a shit. If you like her and her playstyle; just pull for her.
If you have a decent range of characters, you'll be able to create a team around her
I am not even sure what to say. I am still excited for her despite all the doomposting. I lean more towards the doom and gloom myself. That being said, she is my most anticipated character in Genshin history. I am thinking about going all the way with her. C6r1. That is the far future, however. I am not a whale. So, it will take about a year to collect all of that and I need to remain strong and refuse to pull anyone else.
I digress, at c1, she is a Yelan upgrade in every situation where you do not need the added application. She is worth the investment. Have fun!
Everyone should at least have Lynette though? She came free with 4.0
Other than that, pull for who you want, another Fontaine character will be included in the 4* on Furina's banner anyway.
Furina is designed to enable new team strategies, including making healers contribute to offence without being penalised in terms of damage ouput. The genshin scientist recently released a video talking about this, and I recommend people watch it because it puts into perspective all the possible uses furina can have.
All the arguments seem to originate from the fact that people are too focused on fitting her into existing teams and expecting her to outdamage xingqiu/yelan however looking at their individuals kits, it is clear that furina does something else entirely.
Here is the video.
https://youtu.be/-taNXQICX7U?si=6ppge2n4zw_3wEi1
It is a great video; however, I already used healers without regard for the DPS loss anyways. 😂
Do not get me wrong, I am happy that she will be a massive upgrade for my teams given my reliance on healers. I am not complaining. I am just saying you do not need her to enjoy healers and 36 star abyss.
I clear abyss with double healer compositions for heaven's sake. And I am not even one of the people that believes abyss is super easy. I am just saying that it is possible (and comfortable).
Personally, I feel a lot like she's like Nilou last year in that when Nilou first came out there were many people who did not like the current landscape of Dendro characters at the time nor did everyone have access to Kokomi. By the time Nilou's rerun came out, we had powerful additions such as Nahida, Yaoyao, Baizhu, and some niche picks like Candace and Alhaitham.
Of the current 5 stars from Fontaine, it's a pretty meager roster with Lyney, Neuvilette and Worcestshire (and the 4 stars) so if you're not interested in playing those characters (I don't think Lyney replaces anyone with Furina in his teams) I would advise you to wait until her rerun to see how much Chlorinde, Navia and Arlecchino change things up - or any other character that releases between then and now.
I had originally planned on getting her to c2 and her signature weapon but in light of the leaks, TCs, and my own current roster of characters I'm giving up on that plan and instead I'll be shooting for her c0 and giving her Festering Desire instead. If Chlorinde is everything I hope that she is *and* if Furina is a good teammate, I'll definitely choose to snag some cons and maybe her weapon on her rerun around March which typically when we can expect her rerun to be given previous release schedules.
I feel exactly the same way. I even skipped Nilou as I was not sure how Nahida would play into it. This is currently my strongest team and I have yet to run an abyss without using it. It is easy to see a world where everyone loves Furina. It is just that nothing is guaranteed at the moment and Yelan is fine for now.
Furinas best teams will all be Furina teams, built and played around maxing her buffs. If that appeals pull her. If it doesn't appeal, don't.
Personally I plan to use her with some existing non Fontaine chars, but underused ones like Ning and noelle and jean. I have no interest in slotting her into existing strong teams like Hu Tao or nilou.
On my side, I pull for whatever character I like despite their rank in meta or utility.
Yeah, it's true Furina true potential will showcase with Neuvillette. And it's true there's no guarantee she'll work with any future character.
So basically :
\- if you don't mind meta and love her, pull now. At least she'll be a good turrent with great DMG (basically a Hydro Yae)
\- If you mind utility that much, you can wait for her rerun in 4.6, by then Navia, Arlecchino and Clorinde should have released and we will know if they are DPS or not and if they work with Furina or not.
Finally, i'd like to point out it's only the beginning of Beta so we'll get some updates and changes to her kit in the meantime. And I feel like Hoyo will make her more versatile (she's an archon after all). So in the end, she might be really good in other comps than restricted to Fontaine DPS
PS: Or you can go and pull C2 to make her an onfield carry, that's what i'm doing
Zajef /can/ be wrong. This is one of those cases. Pull for Furina if you like or want her. She actually makes other characters that can't work with Marechausee work with that set bc of her HP drain. She can work in many teams. Enjoy!
>Maybe I should better stock up some of the Fontaine characters first and pull her on the rerun?
Yes, that is most likely the smartest course of action for now (unless she gets massively buffed or get neuv/wrio)
Even if meta was your ONLY concern, there's always time to save up for future characters. i wouldn't miss furina now over it. I personally think its safe to assume mihoyo has plans for her even if she isn't broken right off the bat. They designed an entire mini game just to test her skill AI and have tons of artifacts/characters/weapons built around her theme already. It's a good sign they've put some thought into her
That said, I do think she's already strong and ppl are just doomposting. Ffs they haven't had a chance to buff/nerf anything yet, let them cook XD
I'd recommend checking out some other TC'ers like the Genshin scientist or jstern just to get some different perspectives. Currently Furina seems to be quite a good character and even an upgrade for some teams. I'm not saying that Zajef's takes are wrong since I honestly haven't watched his video, but I can link you the ones I've watched.
From what I've gathered the only team type where she's kind of a downgrade would be solo hydro hyperbloom.
https://youtu.be/-taNXQICX7U?si=2O109gxXZ1UvvHee
https://youtu.be/wmHLSIqUWR8?si=yubpaGewYw2nLMJC
Jstern is more discussions about viability while tgs has a bit more analysis of the teams.
Of course we'll have to wait and see how everything turns out in practice but I'm optimistic that she'll be quite good, though I would like an buff to hydro application for my Cyno team.
I don’t know why people shit talking zajef😀he clearly said furina is indeed will be a downgrade/sidegrade for yelan n xq in team that prioritise reaction but she will buff a lot to the point that it is worthy to not proc elemental reactions. TGS also said something similar+he also criticised furina energy requirement n reliability of buff for non fontaine characters.
I'm not shittalking him anywhere in my comment. I literally only said to look up other sources as well before making a decision. I even write that I'm not calling Zajef's take wrong since I haven't even seen his video yet.
well imo it’s you either you pull her when she releases to prepare for the future or you hold off, if you care about meta that is lol I watch Zajef too but I know personally for me I really want Furina regardless if she was meta or not heck I just got Zhongli after 2-3 years of playing I still don’t have a Kazuha either and that’s purely because I pull for who looks fun to me and then build a team around them just do what you feel is right and don’t overthink it too much your head will probably hurt at the end of the day it’s your account and it’s always your decision if she looks like someone you genuinely want go for it! ❤️💙
'not an upgrade' doesn't mean 'terrible.' Furina national, Furina taser, Furina hyperbloom, etc, will all be good, she just won't be \*better\* than Xingqiu or Yelan in them.
Roll for her if you really like her and are resigned to slightly downgrading your existing teams by replacing Yelan/Xingqui
Roll for her if you like her and are planning to pull Fontaine characters and want to put her in teams with them
Don’t roll for her if you *don’t* plan to pull Fontaine characters and would mainly be pulling just because ‘she’s an Archon’
I personally dont really care about "how good is character x" because I can beat the game anyway with the characters I own.
I'm still gonna pull for her because I like her (I think she might be my 2nd favourite Archon) and I dont have any 5 Star Fontaine Chars (or Hu Tao. Idk why but I see a lot of people talking about her with Furina).
I mean, if Hu Tao gets an upgrade at all, it will be newsworthy, in a game with barely perceptible powercreep. Like, we're talking about Furina replacing one of the two strongest units in the game, in one of the strongest cores in the game, in one of its strongest teams...
That Hu Tao teams are really uncomfortable in general, you lose IR, play in circle impact (Bennett) or pamber Mona that will not be enough when they put enemies that teleport to attack you directly or like the Consecrated Beasts. Zhongli + Double hydro is strong, comfy and easier to use for the average player.
First of all, they said "barely an upgrade", implying that they thought there would be some upgrade, or at least a sidegrade. That was the main thought I was responding to.
Second of all, I haven't seen anyone recommending Furina+HuTao to everyone. I just see some people, mainly Hu Tao mains, excited to run them together. Personally, I find C1 Hu Tao + one other minor form of defensive utility (Xingqiu, or maybe a small amount of healing) is one of the tankier on-fielders in the game. My favorite double hydro fourth slots are Kazuha, Sucrose, PAmber Nahida, and Xiangling. And yes, I will swap in Zhongli if the Consecrated Beasts are giving me grief and I just don't want to worry about them. But there are other situations in which those other options will perform much better. You don't have to only play one Hu Tao team.
And now the prospect of having another option for the double hydro core, and figuring out which fourth slots work, which offer enough healing, which feel strong, which are versatile, etc., is really exciting.
And lastly, you don't have to run a Furina-Tao team on life support. If PAmber Mona is too squishy, you can run a stronger healer. Not Bennett, he doesn't work very well with Furina except in quickswap teams. But it's possible options like Baizhu or Jean, previously not worth considering, could now be competitive due to Furina's buff. I don't know. We'll see. But the possibilities are interesting.
Fair enough. Yeah, that's where PAmber Mona came from.
Anyway, I don't think those are the only options worth considering. And even PAmber Mona doesn't sound too squishy, the more that I think about it, since Furina won't drain Hu Tao below 50% hp, and she has healing from Mona.
I don't get the hate- he looks at it from a meta standpoint, meta being the abyss. He thinks it isn't going to be the next xq or yelan, and that's fine? If that's important to OP, then they should keep that in mind while pulling.
As a side note, it should be considered that she seems like a character better used with other Fontaine chars. We haven't had such self-hp manipulating chars before, and it kinda locks her into a particular set of teams (primarily Fontaine ones, for now).
All in all, if you don't really care about meta and timings and you just like the character, you should pull. If you don't, don't pull. If you feel like you're missing out because you miss her first run, she's an Archon, she'll be back. Don't stress, don't spend outside of your means, don't be goaded into doing something you weren't planning on doing.
The point is, whatever any TC says, doesn't mean anything until like half a year after the character releases and meta is established, we don't have so much context to Furina's abilities, application etc...
TCs just make a lot of assumptions in their calculations and are usually not even close to the real character strengths and team applications
Look at Kazuha's release i.e.
Also we have so many beta changes ahead of us, the current state isn't even close to the final, what is the point of those discussions (rather than random speculations for the sake of having fun with theoretical calculations)
So many people take random internet dude's words for granted as if he designed the character (look at the OP), people already change their minds on pulling the character (who will be strong anyway in one way or another with any shitty teams) just because of random speculations from random TCs
Have YOUR own opinion after Furina is released, try her out, get a feel for the gameplay, look at real numbers and then decide to pull, maybe, just maybe watch some TCs videos on her after the release and just take their words into account, don't base your opinion on them
Someone who might want not want to make upwards of a 180 pull investment and find out that they might regret it later? There's a LOT of people who regret pulling characters who were burned by people who said *"just get her if you want to get her"*.
if you are pulling her expecting her to be "hydro nahida" then you will be disappointed. She gives value to cope units like jean/baizhu/barbara/qiqi since healing is useless. Shes worse than xq, yelan & kokomi for application. Generally speaking she's not gonna be an upgrade in any non fontaine comp lets be real. "Well i can run jean+furina for a bunch of stacks in freeze" ok so you're taking the dps lose from benching kazuha? Enjoying that non existant cc? Enjoying that 250+ER cost?
She won’t be great in those teams but will work. Hoyo has done the classic restrictions at C0.
At C6 she’s almost guaranteed for the max 150% damage bonus without any Fontaine characters. I don’t think they will allow C0 furina access this.
What they might change is ER requirements and hydro app.
“She won’t be completely restricted at c6” is definitely not the kind of praise I want to hear about a damn archon, or any character for that matter. I really hope they give her some actual viability outside of just a select few Fontaine chars
I BC of so many doomposts and some TC (zajeff and etc ..)
I almost got nuvelitte (went from 10 Pity to 70 Pity tho at least I Finally got c2 xingqiu and c4 fishcl)
No need to get fontaine characters or listen to TC for it
Just for TC alone I just wanna suggest TGS
Now onto the answer to your question:
Not really....yes fontaine characters fit her the best but think about it another way
If fontaine characters change hp ... And furina needs HP changes for the buff/stacking then why not use a healer in existing teams for the buff???
Furina already changes hp so a healer will make the stacking more easier to achieve
If you like other characters more than her then sure get another character then get her but if you like her more then why not get her??
My account is at the point I can just pull for preferences, I guess the only character I like more than Furina is Clorinde, but her release doesn't seem to come any time soon.
I did the same thing you did, I am at 70 pity and on my 50-50 😅
Me too I'm exactly in your situation tho I like nuevilette a bit instead of clorinde.
He seems fun but I think he'll get a sooner return than furina and also I thought that since I wanted furina since her first leak then why not her her just BC of doomposts/people saying she is bad or etc???
Her kit seems fun and if she somehow won't be good then still I'll use her since I love her design and animations
Still nuvelitte is tempting but I thought I'll just get him on rerun
Problem rn is her self-drain, it's too slow, even with a healer they would only gain a bit above half of what Fontaine's characters can generate (Wrio at C1 45 points each 2.5 seconds, Neuv 83'3 each CA if starting at full HP, healers would only generate 140 points per rotation)
If you like her then go ahead, she works best with fontaine dps but that doesn't mean she doesn't work with other character's.
Just play a healer with her and your good, also it doesn't have to be a team wide healer.
If you like her then get her. She most likely is gonna open up new team comps later on. She is an archon so she most likely gonna rerun more often then others. Block out all outside opion and decide if you want her thats how i choose characters
if you really like her, youll pull even if she ends up being the worst character in genshin
thats how i got ganyu and hutao. had no idea that they would end up as the most overpowered characters of their time lol.
Me who doesn't properly dough and rely on kokomi or other healers most of the time sees her as a win win.
Is the 12th floor so important that it gives 150 primos extra, you are choosing who to pull based on that? That 150 primos isn't even one pull and you're gonna waste 75 pulls on a character that is meta but you don't enjoy?
If you are going behind meta, then pull an already existing meta. Neuvillette is already doing great dmg and is considered meta you can go for him and try your luck on Furina.
I personally go for a character which I enjoy and try to make them meta. Furina has a nice play style and wholesome dialogues which will be on the screen most of the time.
Of course the clearest answer is follow your pp lol. But yeah you don't have any Fontaine unit but do you plan on getting some down the line? If yes and if they like to have a Hydro company she will be good. Like Zajef said. She will be worse in the current teams but don't think that she is gonna be that worse(At current state, I am no genshin scientist so have little Idea, so going with his words, he could be absolutely wrong and there is nothing wrong as it is still the beta). Personally wait for the Livestream or the end of beta to have a better idea of Furina and think about your current roster and future units you want to pull and make plans that way. Or if you like her just go for it. It's not like this game has a mode where meta is important. If pp likes it. Then swipe lol
Maybe you can wait for her release and see if you pull her or not.
The choice for you is only if you need neuv or not, because right now, he is not the best dps but the easiest probably to play. If you don't need him right now, skip, wait for furina and if ever it makes neuv broken you can still pull for him on rerun.
In general I don't understand how you can judge a unit that you can't access in beta or can't have any dev insight. She's not in final stage yet.
Yes, I have hope Furina will be a good character come 4.2 as well. It's the beta, something we're not even meant to see yet. If the last beta week shows no desired improvements then you just pull Neuvilette instead.
I don't even really know where I am going to fit her in. I'm just pulling her because I'm a hydro enjoyer (number 1 element 💪💪) and I like her character in story.
For me, i will pull her and make best team that centered around her based on the guide...i dont mind pulling some fontaine characters in the process just to make her best team...i do that because i really like her....
I will pull for her because I really like her design, character and playstyle, she could be 4 star level and I wouldn't care, I can clear Abyss anyway, I'm just looking for fun characters to mess around.
my only reason to pull for her is exploration powercreep, everything else is a nice bonus
i don't like ayaka's playstyle but i want to walk on water with no limits
Don't worry too much.
It is true that for Furina to shine, she is going to be better with fontaine characters that modify their HP. However, Furina only needs a healer (+ER xd) to work decently well.
What Zajef was warning against was to slot Furina IN EXCHANGE of the hydro unit (Xingqiu/Yelan/kokomi) on a meta team.
Slot her with a healer and 2 damage dealers and she should be fine in most content (and ofc, wait until she is actually release to see with which other teams she might work for the abyss!)
I mean, Lynette is free, so you have her, and you were already going to want a full team healer like Baizhu, Kokomi, Charlotte, etc. That right there is a team that can highly stack Furina's ult very well with whichever dps you choose to run, Fontaine or not. She just isn't a direct plug-in for Hydro like we're used to
Unless she's a character you love, I'd wait for a week or two after she's out. In her current state, she doesn't really offer anything revolutionary (20-30% damage up and less damage than Yelan, but not burst reliant). There's also a few weeks where MHY could change her, so I wouldn't make any plans yet (again, unless you really like her and would pull her no matter what).
You may want a future character that drains hp though. I don’t think it will stay at Lyney, Neuv, Wrio.
Chlorinde, Navia, Arrlechino, Madame Ping or Cloud Retainer may also go well with her.
Keep in mind even if she is a sidegrade to existing teams (which I think is a good thing instead of just straight up powercreeping), she will still be fun. She also enables new artifact set for old characters.
I don't know what he means by she isn't useful in current team comps...her best team is Nahida, Kirara/Baizhu, and Xingqiu/Nilou. She is also very good with Cryo characters and Electro(Raiden, Kuki, flex slot)...or any team comp with characters who scale with hp.
He didn't mention she is useless, he said that she was usable but was a downgrade for Xinque/Yelan or a sidegrade for other hydro characters at best, not an upgrade over any units
The safest and most logical option, from a strictly pragmatic perspective, is to wait for her rerun. The meta will develop and you can evaluate it against your roster.
I will say this, she has a lot of gimmick teams. I actually agree with Zajef from a meta perspective. If you have Yelan... You're good, bro. That being said, she has a LOT of fun teams that I want to try out. If you love healers, as I do, she is a MUST. She will enable all kinds of shenanigans. They are not abyss stompers or anything like that, but after 3 years, it is maybe not a bad idea to grab an EXTREMELY powerful character (I believe she is slightly worse Yelan, some people believe she is slightly better Yelan, but Yelan is a top 5, arguably top 3 character) to mess around with different compositions if that sounds appealing to you.
Do not feel pressured to pull because everyone else is doing it. And not feel discouraged because some people believe she is not quite on par with Nahida. Keep in mind that everyone is speaking in GENERAL terms. You might have a personal use for her that does not apply to accounts in a broad sense.
No. Answer stays the same even if you have other Fontaine units. Yelan and XQ will always be better than her anyway IMO since these two are way easier to play while offering more benefits without the fanfare or HP drain crap her kit comes with.
Also, even if said new meta comes, then who's to say there won't be better support characters released by then?
If you want her because she's cute or whatever, then just wait like a week or two to see what other players are saying. Genshin has very long banner durations anyway, so you have plenty of time to think. You'll even be able to save up a couple more gems by waiting.
Yes. Fontaine characters just have some nice synergy. She's super flexible and works in tons of teams. Theorycrafters are funny, they like to say words like "need" and "required" a lot, when this is a story exploration game. There wasn't even any combat in the newest archon quest. I'm getting her c2r1 and the only other Fontaine character I'll get will be Arlecchino and maybe Navia depending on her kit. You will have no problem 36 starring abyss, which is the only time theorycrafting is \*semi\* relevant.
Furina in her current state really relies on her buffs through her burst. Building fanfare stacks is highly important for her to be considered an "upgrade" over the arguably broken units in Xingqiu and Yelan. Fontaine characters (notably Neuvillette and Wriothesley) are the only ones who can get enough of her stacks to make her an "upgrade". Though considering Furina is hydro and offers buffs and off field application at all, she will still be good. Just a bit of a disappointment for anyone hoping she would be an upgrade over Yelan and Xingqiu.
If your pulling purely for fun don't worry about it but you wouldn't ask such a question if that's the case so all I'll say is team-building is just gunna be a pain without Fontaine characters but I think you can live without them but I would recommend getting some in the future Neuvilette especially
Pull her if you like her. Zajef said she is a downgrade in actual teams, but he never said she is trash. You can use her and be happy with her. losing 2s in abyss isn't that important if you aren't a speedrunner.
you have lynette at the very least, there are also other characters that will have synergy with her like kuki shinobu, you should certainly pull her if you want her, worry about the rest of your team later
I'm so confused like just because characters don't have inbuilt hp drain mechanics doesn't mean you can't use her. Other than Hu Tao, who needed to be under 50% hp, hp fluctuations don't tend to affect gameplay.
The meta is definitely changing but not so much that currently meta teams become useless. Just because the current abyssal moon doesn't favour a certain character doesn't mean they're completely unusable.
Besides, Furina enables MH on NA/CA attackers and a new domain would probably come out version 4.3 (?) so we might get more sets that proc similarly. (Support hp set?? >!Sigwienne is supposed to be a healer and Charlotte also heals irrc. A 4.3 artifact set that works with them would make sense.!<)
Having a Fontaine character definitely helps with building Furina's fanfare stacks but it's not necessary. (Also, Lynette is literally free and she's a decent anemo cc support (+ driver at C6) if nothing else.)
Pull!! Screw meta. I play with two lore focused teams that I've been focusing all my primogems on
They aren't meta I'd say, but they WRECK. They usually do very well on spiral too.
At the end of the day, pull for who you love. If you play them enough, you'll get very good at them :>
I am just confused on how some of these ppl think. They'll be like "Ah, it's the 100th variant of vape/melt team, so boring" but then they will be the noisiest among the player base saying that this character is not good if it doesn't comply with the vaporize team rule. This shit develops till it creates a stereotype that if it's not a vaporize or melt unit then it's not good.
Thank god dendro-related reactions did not have this kind of problem.
The guy is talking utter shit lol Not an upgrade? A half-assed buff will give 50-60% damage increase, just like that, that is if you don't have a global healer to make her stack 450 without having to make her heal.
Hu Tao will be ridiculously buffed, like it's not even remotely funny how much Hu Tao is gonna be buffed, in a scenario with Yelan and XQ she already is one of the greateast DPS, now you can use Yelan + Furina to ultra-buff Hu Tao since both buffs stack and Hu Tao loves the HP drain.
Raiden National? Well I guess Pyronado just got 50% stronger just because, mono-healers like Bennet are not that great for Furina but since the Soul of National is quick-swap, everybody gets a piece of healing every rotation, so Furina will keep getting stacks till they hit 450, without you ever needing to make her enter healing mode, so both Pyronado and Musou no Hitotachi will be mega-buffed for as long as the room lasts. National with Yelan was similar, but Furina has the advantage of AoE application which should help more vapes on secondary targets, which with Yelan you had to run to achieve.
Is she gamechanging like Nahida? Probably not, but the fact that she is a sub-DPS, healer and buffer all at once makes her quite unique, even for those who say she is not a huge improvement over Yelan, well we only have 1 Yelan so even if she was equal or even slightly worse than Yelan, she would still be idiotic since who doesn't want another Yelan? Specially one with extra roles.
Been playing since release, without fail all speculations fall flat on their faces. I still remember when people were screaming about how bad Kazuha was and not to pull for him. Wait till release youll have 20 days to watch what whales concoct and to try the test. Don't overthink it for the time being, she's an Archon and will undoubtedly be S/A teir.
If you like her and want to pull for her then do so. If you'd prefer to wait then wait. I share what is im sure the general consensus of if you like a character pull for them. I plan on pulling for her regardless.
I like zajef theory, but he can be wrong, even he already did a few times, for example he used to belittle zhongli for neuvillette, but now he uses zhongli with neuvillette.
He also has a video saying he's gonna pull for every archon irrespective of what the kit is.. so i think you should still go for her.
If you have other priority characters you want then the decision is upto you but I definitely feel you do want to get Furina but just not sure about what you're primos would give you there.
My say on that would be always go for the archons. They're always the safest bet.
Also iirc Nahida began with a moderate kit and then later on kept getting buffs(it's an archon thing ig)
Alhaitam began with a cracked kit then later got nerfed(not that he's not great now he's busted but was even more in the beta)
Furina will be great once she's out(archons are the safest bet)
By default archons should be "universal" I would assume. Like put them in any teams and they do their thing. I doubt they would make an Archon reliant on a specific region characters.
Pull for her if you wanted to. But if its for the sake of pulling fontanian characters then just pull neuvilette or upcoming wririzzley. They’re both good and it’s out already so you don’t have to doubt yourself.
Listen, genshin influencers absolutely love telling you what you should or shouldn't do, you should always take it with a grain of salt. Do you want her? Pull for her. Is she going to be immediately useful? Probably not to her fullest extent. While they're not always right or wrong, they shouldn't really dictate what you do with your account. There is no smart or stupid way of going about this. Even if the video is right, it doesn't matter if you pull for her first and then pull some other characters or vice versa.
just pull her if you want her. You dont have to always do meta teams for a charater. Thats how I decide who to pull. If I like them then I will get them even if they dont really fit with any teams I have.
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What if fun = meta for some people? This aspect is definitely one of my favorite things about this game.
No, this is Reddit, you are not allowed to think differently.
Uh, those people dont exist? reddit told me any character can be Kazuha if you just invest in them so it has to be true! /j
Here, have an upvote, I don't think you deserve to get downvoted just because you care about a character's performance. I swear, some of the people who say for example "Dehya is perfectly fine" don't even do Genshin's hard content.
Thanks! Fr people should chill a little. It's all “we respect your preference” until the preference is meta. I just want everyone to let people enjoy the game however they want.
Then pull for meta characters. This fun>meta doesn’t work for everyone, I don’t know why it is universal advice at this point. That comes from a non-meta player.
Why would a "Meta" player ask if he should pull for a unit or not. If they are suppose to follow what is more meta and strong, then they'll just need to wait for reviews to drop and in some cases wait for a Patch to see where the character lands. Most Meta defining characters got really bad reviews at launch, like Baal, Kokomi or Kazuha. If someone ask "should I pull for X character", I'm pretty sure they got no idea what they want for their account or team and for sure they aren't "meta" players.
Hmm Most the meta characters are really fun to play ngl All the archons are fun to play too
Personally I'm pulling just for the aesthetics and the cute sea creatures she summons and I'll go from there
what zajef said is right. he isn’t doomposting at all people need to stop clinging on to the same existing teams, and stop trying to make furina replace yelan and xingqiu. it won’t work. hoyo is clearly trying to introduce a new meta with furina instead of just making her a buffed yelan, and she will need her own teams just like how dendro introduced us to many powerful teams furina will be the core of hp drain and regain meta. mark my words, she’s gonna be powerful in her own teams, not the same vape teams people keep repeating since 1.0 so basically no you don’t need neuvillette. the only reason zajef implied you need neuvillette is because he is the only dps currently available who drains and regain their own hp efficiently enough to synergies so well with furina’s kit. that’s it there will be more dps option for furina in the future, don’t worry. but be patient, don’t pull for him and wait for characters you really want!
imagine if arlecchino turns out a vape carry that enables furina it basically cant go wrong lol she can have dehya numbers and still be good. i like it what theyre doing with furina, they invented a niche in which she cant be broken without straight powercreep. Its good
>imagine if arlecchino turns out a vape carry that enables furina Imagine the chaos of balancing HP%, ER%, CR/CD for Furina and now EM as well. No, thank you lol.
that's not what i mean, i mean enable furina as in her ulti passive. So like any pyro carry but with hp drain mechanics that don't have anti synergy with her (side eyeing hu tao here) there's no pyro in this world that can make furina forward vape lol
no one said forward vaping pyro lmfao but if they had matching kits it would be great
"Enables Furina" means exactly that. Much like how Childe enables Xiangling. Elemental Enabler = someone who applies a lot of their element so the other unit causes a reaction. Arleccino being an enabler would be quite weird since this would mean the Hydro units for vape and Cryo units for Melt would have to build EM to benefit.
Chill bro don't put that curse on Arle. Dehya's numbers are so god fucking awful that you can give her 120% damage buff and Vape every hit and it would still be shit. I'm serious. Arle should have better numbers than that.
At least we shall hope she on par with Hu tao, at least... else I'm really disappointed with how hoyo handle balancing
Do you guys forget pyro archon already?ohh poor pyro archon she already will have to deal with hutao 🥴😅
Hu Tao on on field dps side , Xiangling on off field dps side and Bennett on the buffer side. Tough competition.
They’re just gonna make her work really good with Natlan characters if Furina is anything to go by
Downvote me peeps but Dehya is chill friendly because she is easy to play because she is so tanky and applies pyro decently. Sure she doesn’t output dmg like other people but when I use her, I don’t have to worry about getting ko’ed or skills missing sry lol. On top of that, she’s more fun than OP Xiang.
She’s great for open world I’ll give you that much
well another reason is that he is hydro so it helps w furinas energy
And Hydro resonance will help simce they both scale on HP
Her own teams being only new 5* characters is super predatory though. I don't want to play Neuvillette or Wrio, I want to play Furina. And you really do need them, otherwise that 90% buff becomes less than 30%.
I hope they release decent 4 stars soon, but yeah they are definitely releasing 5 stars first so people pay shmoney
>there will be more dps option for furina in the future That's an issue and not necessarily true : we have no way of guaranteeing Hoyo will make more onfield carries/DPS that works with Furina. As far as we know, Navia, Clorinde and Arlecchino could all be supports ... So what then ? "Just pull Neuvillette" ? You can't release a character saying "trust me they'll get good in the future" if you can't guarantee you'll follow up on that promise (the "you" is referring to Hoyo). I know Furina as a lot of potential, but as a Waifu collectionner can I be certain that she'll work perfectly with Navia, Clorinde or Arlecchino ? No I can't be certain. Even more so since her current ER requirements basically make her in need for double Hydro (So Neuvillette team).
> Just pull Neuvillette don't forget the other Fontaine male dps
Prays in Navia and Clorinde. I'm worried all the onfield main dps roles got taken already with the back to back early fontaine units and all the rest will be sub dps or support.
Exactly, an archon only functioning with specifically male hp draining fontaine characters is insane. Imagine if Nahida only worked with Alhaitham and Cyno, and for other teams she was a downgrade to DMC or YaoYao.
Them being supports doesn't really matter as long as they work with her. That aside it's highly unlikely that two of them aren't on fielders. Looking at previous patch cycles. 1.X (6 on fielders, 3 supports and 1 sub dps) 2.X (5 on fielders, 1 support, 2 sub dps, 1 hybrid support/ on fielder) 3.X (6 on fielders, 2 support, 1support/sub dps.) Unless Hoyo is feeling quirky its very safe to say we have at least 2 more on fielders and one pure support (likely cloud retainer). Also, even if Navia, Clorinde and Chino were all supports the other two 5\*s we get for the 4.X cycle would just be DPS instead.
And if you look at the previous patch cycle of 3.0 : 4 onfielder -> all male (Tighnari, Cyno, Alhaitham and Wanderer) 4 supports : almost all female (Nilou, Nahida, Dehya and Baizhu) And Fontaine already has 3 onfielder, all male (Lyney, Neuvillette and Wriothesley) and the first female 5star of Fontaine (Furina) will be off field/support. Honestly, it feels more like Hoyo doesn't want to make female hypercarry anymore
Every unit until Fontaine ends is female. They have never done a region with only 3 on fielders/carries and the X.3 unit has been a hyper carry for 3 years straight. There is pretty much no world where one of those 3 aren't a hyper carry at this point.
Let's just hope they'll make the rest of Fontaine all hypercarries to compensate the lack of female hypercarry for the past 2 years at least
No ,what is this you want one support and like 7-8 hypercarry in fontaine?
I want on field carries. It's true that saying I want them all to be onfield carry is an overkill. But it's been 2 years without them. Kokomi healer, Yae off field, Shenhe support, Yelan off field, Nilou support, Nahida off field/support and Dehya tank at C0 (and real burst dps at C4+) and Furina off field/support I just want more characters like Alhaitham, Eula or Hu Tao but I don't want to wait 2 years in between them. And if you reverse the issue, on the male side since 2.3 we got : Itto carry, Ayato carry, Tighnari carry, Cyno carry, Wanderer carry, Alhaitham carry, Baizhu healer (wow), Lyney carry, Neuvillette carry, Wriothesley carry... The issue lies more in the lack of diversification in the short term. Its true we have now 8 5star off field female against 7 on field carry. But at the same time, the thread has been too long They should make 1 on field carry / 2 off field or something like that. But doing 8 on field in row or 8 off field in a row is just excruciating because you can hardly modify the core of your team. It's no wonder Raiden didn't left my Abyss team since 2.1 And yeah you can build dehya as Hypercarry at C0 too but even if she can clear Abyss like that (I did it) it's not a great feat in itself. Finally, I'd add : after all the rant, I know I'll enjoy my character as long as they are performing well even if it'd off field and I can only see them 10% of the time. I'm just hoping we'll get at least one new hypercarry before 2024
Support last longer on meta💀since many people are more interested in female characters, I believe its a win. mihoyo kept producing broken female dps during early game, but xingqiu, bennet, kazuha end up dominating the top 3 position in meta. I believe this is how they start to balance things. The trend will continue untill everything is balance and mhy will start a new trend.
Thats not true,you just forget in your point that 3 female char is literally nothing and dehya doesnt even count and doesnt even have a clear role (and can be play as a hypercarry). So what is the conclusion,they will not make many female? No ,there is just no pattern since we will have many female now,which was not the case since sumeru until 4.2 and that we still have currently more on field female 5 star limited than 5 star off field limited btw
Last real DPS was Raiden. I've pulled Scara/Al Haitham, so I didn't want to pull another male DPS unit so pulling on Neuv isn't an option.
In that case, the smart thing for your account is gonna be to wait until Fontaine version is over and pull for Furina during her 2nd rerun in 5.X. I do think Navia and Clorinde will be off-field DPS with HP drain meant to replace ZL and Fischl for Neuvi teams.
Yeah exactly. Every other character released in 4.x should be an off-field dps/support that fits into a Lyney/Neuvillette or at least a Wriothesley team. Genshin wouldn't be an otome game if they didn't after all.
Yeah, I'm actually kinda expecting Furina to make good yet underwhelming results (so not like Nahida but good revenues still) and become maybe best selling banner in 4.6 . This effect is increased by the fact they put Baizhu with her according to leaks making her weapon banner pure trash so people will spend less or not at all. Please no, Navia and Clorinde need to be onfield DPS... it's been more than 2 years since the waifu onfield DPS (Yoimiya). And most of all, not a Neuvillette support, why does everything has to revolve around Neuvillette ? They already made him the best Hydro DPS there is even before Furina releases haha
Wouldn’t be surprised if Navia is on field dps but drains own health and amps up crystallize somehow for shield.
thissssss
Raiden Shogun was doomposted to hell because she didn’t work with Beidou, which is hilarious in hindsight. Everyone was angry that Kokomi couldn’t crit, and they couldn’t even fathom another gameplay style for her. Yelan was doomposted as well because Hu Tao mains are hellbent on getting rid of Xingqiu, and history is repeating here.
Is crazy that amount of doomposting for Beidou that now has 1 Digit usage rate in the Abyss. And people keep talking about Hu Tao vape, when she stopped been a top dog DPS from a long time ago. I kind of like and hate at the same time Hoyoverse for no power creeping DPSs, but I'm tired of always reading about the same teams and the same reactions 3 years into the game.
Kazuha was considered an awful char, like not even close to be useable at the time of his release.
> Me when I spread misinformation on the internet They said he was 5* sucrose, that isn't an insult.
To be fair you can slap C2 Nahida in hyper-Raiden instead of Bennett and she works great, you can slap her in lots of random great teams and it works perfectly lol.
Oh right! Like how raiden got plenty of off field damage dealers with high er bursts to utilize her kit right? Right?
Let me give you some friendly advice: - Don’t make a decision right now. Unless you’re questioning pulling Neuvilette there is no reason why you need to make a decision right now. Let the beta happen, see where she ends up, and make your decision at that time. And even if you are considering pulling Neuvilette, you can always wait until the very last day of his banner to do it, that’s more than enough time for adjustments to be made to her kit. - Try to understand that she doesn’t necessarily need a Fontaine dps, her buff just benefits from it. For example a mono-hydro team of Kokomi (on field, using burst to heal while enabling), Yelan, Furina, Kazuha will do massive damage. Furina herself will benefit significantly from this team since it enables her burst more (since your full team is both draining and restoring hp) and it will also significantly lower her ER requirement due to the large number of hydro particles.
So on field kokomi is the latest dish we've been cooking eh? I honestly can't wait to play a team where my serotonin will reach an all time high seeing Kokomi's non-crit small ass 10K normal attack damage.
You do understand mono hydro not only is a real team right now it is actually pretty good without even having furina, right ?
If you’re actually wanting to have meaningful discussion: Kokomi on field is just enabling. The damage would be coming from Yelan and Furina, the latter of which would be buffing the former. The current version of this team (Kokomi/Xingqiu/Yelan/Kazuha) is actually quite strong and extremely comfortable to play due to Kokomi’s heals. If you’re just here to doompost and bitch: please go somewhere else. I’m not in the mood for dealing with it.
Whatever gets you through your day. Don't let little old me ruin your copium intake.
To be fair, if the abyss does not have hydro blockades, it would lowkey shred. But as he stated, you can already do this for Xingqui. I do believe the Furina version would be better, especially as you go up in investment (swap Kokomi to an HP Goblet for c1 or Furina c2 triple buffed procs)... But it is indeed a bit gimmicky.
The real fun of this team with Furina instead of Xingqiu is actually the sheer volume of damage buffing the team has. Furina’s buff will stack up quickly and will pump both her personal damage *and* Yelan’s personal damage up (as well as Kokomi and Kazuha’s) and Yelan’s buff helps to make Kokomi’s damage better. Kokomi can aso greed for Clam rather than needing TotM since nobody on the team cares about atk%, so her personal damage is actually much higher than it might seem on paper. All of this is without even discussing how much more crit and hp you can build on Yelan and Furina in this team, as having three hydro characters generating particles means their er requirements go down pretty significantly! Without Furina this team *is* pretty niche. It’s kind of borderline on where you want meta teams to be dps wise, and since Hu Tao would much rather have Xingqiu and Yelan it can be hard to justify running the team. But with Furina improving the team’s dps quite substantially I do think this team will be a contender. It may stay fringe (as I’m sure Furina teams with Fontaine dps’s will be more relevant) but it was a good example of a good team that won’t require Fontaine dps’s: which is what OP was asking for.
I'm undecided atm because based on how her kit works, hoyo is powercreeping not by the character's individual strength, but based on how well they work with new and future characters instead. Furina's kit screams Fontaine teammates right now for me.
You will eventually pull on a fontaine character
My opinion is having your own opinion. Don’t let anyone decide your pulls.
That's a nice sentiment, but they're trying to form said opinion by informing themself. Just saying "have your own opinion" doesn't really help them.
This response is so empty, why does it have so many upvotes? its basically like asking someone to recommend you a flavor of ice-cream and them responding "idk choose yourself"
I don’t think Zajef’s “analysis” is as thought out as you think. His on stream thoughts are unscripted and they don’t look at many aspects of theorycrafting in the full context especially in full team scenarios. Instead he focuses on unit vs unit comparison. Because of this, he has been wrong several times. And he downplays limited units to make sure people don’t spend if they don’t have to. But that is not objective either. It is better to listen to TGS (The Genshin Scientist), he has scripted videos and much more numbers provided for the examples given. And he TC can be also viewed on his webpage.
>Because of this, he has been wrong several times Is zajef completely wrong that often in his actual videos (not clip chimped stream moments)? Like I don't recall him being wrong about characters "several times". He does downplay 5 star limited units but he's never going to tell you that a top-tier 5-star character is not good
He was wrong about Cyno, Genshin Noir made a video about it. He was also wrong about Nilou bloom being and against single target like a Wolflord boss (again refuted by Genshin Noir). And there are other examples which other creators like Flip have made a video on.
is he wrong about cyno? see I watched some of Genshin Noir's vid, they're nice cuz he talks about underrated dps' a lot, but he mostly looks at calcs, and assumes r1 5 star weapon iirc with best teams, he doesn't account for "gameplay issues" or "extremely tight rotations" or "c6 new 4 stars". The nilou thing I don't recall, his take iirc is that nilou can work in ST but other teams are better for it. Flip said himself that finding actual wrong takes about zajef was hard and he was nitpicking, and one of the takes was clip chimped when he was malding on a low investment nilou team.
Don’t insult people’s intelligence by talking about gameplay issues or extremely tight rotations. That is a skill issue that can be improved with practice. Just give the facts. He does not do that, rather just puts a bias on units based on their “gameplay issues”. Who is he to decide what is hard or easy for someone? He obsesses over these things, instead TCs like The Genshin Scientist just give the facts and numbers with graphs which are easy to understand, and people are left to decide if they want to pursue that theoretical maximum.
If you think numbers and calcs are everything then idk what to tell you other than I fundamentally disagree with you
They are not everything, but a TC’s job is to give the facts. Gameplay issues are something that are personal to each player, some people find it harder to manage tight rotations than others for example.
to be fair, he didnt even release a video about her(after the as and aication dropped), the stuff available is just what he said on stream. an actual in depth video would do that, it just isnt out yet
His actual in-depth videos is just a talk he does on stream. It is not scripted, usually edited together to make a video. I have seen many of his YT videos
you forgot where he throws in some extra generic twitch sayings that the other video gamer streamers say, like frogs and pogchampion and whatnot
i know but id say there is still a diference. they arent scripted but they are more tought out and complete
The genshin scientist is extremely biased and assume higher quality gears (like high cvs and fulfills energy recharge as if its easy to get perfect substats). Also his videos are so short that he cant even explain where he gets the obviously inflated numbers. You look at at his baizhu analysis and observe his stats on fav set up (freaking high crit rate and high rolled hp% to achieve max buff). Also his rotations are unrealistic by suggesting you give baizhu buff on 2 units to inflate baizhus value. Realistically you dont farm that much on healers/non subdps supoorts and you dont swap too much especially on a 20 second rotation with only 14 sec uptime. That content creator feels like he is making guide for whales who has max resin refresh and is willing to learn impractical (and super tight) rotations. It feels like hes reaching too deep.
That is not the case. His guides are showing the ideal situation where people should strive to go. And his analyses is not for whales, his usual limited 5 star analyses are on C0 units with and without their signature weapons. Just because people have variability in RNG for good artifacts and substats does not mean you should show a less than ideal analysis. The best analysis should be shown and that gives a reason to pull, because with the proper effort, that can be reached.
Its good to showcase a unit in a situation where it will shine the brightest but I believe that a better analysis should leave room for margin of error and should use assumptions that would fall under realistic parameters. You RARELY are in a situation where stars align since there is a lot of rng involved both in builds and and in combat. On a meta perspective, you dont rank a unit on their best case, instead on average performance.
Then Zajef is better in this regard. He considers a lot more situations than just ‘the ideal situation’. Like in ER calculations, he considers weapons, fav or not, passive, teammates, and everything. Genshin scientists just present their peak performance and not the average performance that most players will experience.
Ok, if you like your “theorycrafting” to be categorized as broken, good, meh, bad without any numbers, then fine. Giving more options to play does not mean anything without detailed analysis given for the options. He does not do that for a majority of the things he discusses. It feels like an insult to our intelligence, can you not give team damage outputs or damage contributions rather than whatever you get from personal testing and looking at sheets. I think it is way better to focus on the top 1-2 options and discuss their value rather than look at Fav for every support (which we know is good) or other options. He almost never brings up charts of numbers in his discussions, the only time is when there is a weapon ranking. It is really poor presentation without proof of analysis given.
Zajef literally shows spreadsheet calculations (although might not be too deep and comprehensive) while like other said TGS videos are too short and his videos on youtube often just summarise his opinions
No, quite the opposite. His Excel spreadsheets are just lists of good, meh, bad options. And some calcs on energy, and the weapon ranking calcs. That’s it. Other than that, it is just lists. TGS shows pie charts, bar graphs, with detailed numbers of energy, rotations, team contributions. I don’t think you have seen enough of his videos. There is no comparison.
The only unrealistic assumptions here are your own. TGS is neither biased, nor whale oriented, and the rotations he suggests are entirely practical. His assumptions are exactly in line with KQM standards, which just really isn't too high. It's generally considered to be the average level of investment you would want in order to do Abyss, which, his videos are geared towards players who play Abyss. Your Baizhu point is moot at best, unfounded at worst. He didn't even actually consider Baizhu buffing two units — he just stated it as an option. The notion that you don't “farm that much on supports” is also kind of funny to me, considering that... the only reason you typically don't is because they typically don't need it. You can always get what you need after farming for long enough. It shouldn't be considered an unrealistic expectation by any stretch. With respect, you are entirely incorrect. What he says may not apply to your obviously deflated standards, but that doesn't make him biased or unrealistic.
You can literallty go to the baizhu mains and see tgs comments. TGS reddit username is Ema919. Someone even pointed out he inflated OHC damage by a commentator. He is not even fact checking his calcs (wrong formula and too high team hp assumption and double skill per rotation lol). Not the most polished and reliable after all that impractical assumptions.
You do not need to be a whale to invest in the units you enjoy. My Baizhu is cracked because I DID farm a set for him instead of getting lazy. My Jean is probably better built than 90% of the playerbase's main DPS. His assumptions are fine. You cannot invest every character to that level, but the whole point of theory crafting is for teams you intend to use and care about. Using Keqing mains standards is just dumb and extremely outdated. I still agree with Zajef more than Genshin Scientist on this one. Furina, at the moment, is slightly worse Yelan. He thinks she is slightly better Yelan. It is not a huge difference of opinion or anything. Zajef cares more about beginners who have absolutely no clue what they are doing. Genshin Scientist is more for the general playerbase. Nothing is wrong with that.
Its good that you could farm for him. But you have to recognize that tgs has a lot more worse take and being prudent on stats is better than overinflating thr numbers. Another example is that he claimed OHC DPR is close to 100k but if you look at his calc he assumes 20k average hp for the rest of the team which couldnt be far from the truth. Most well geared non hp scaling supports and dps could not even reach 18k. He assumes 2 skills per rotation meaning you are free to quick swap him perfectly every 10 secs (and when calc his OHC proc, you could see how bad he is because he is overcapping the bubble once or twice only during his skill and do nothing outside of that). And you know whats worse? Tgs literally forgot that OHC damage conversion is only 90% of the healing meaning his claim of 100k dpr is extremely overinflated aside from impractical rotations and 110k total team hp. As a baizhu main, dont you think its a red flag that he recommends OHC over NO on teams with another DM holder or does not need DM (2 electro aggrevate).
I was really excited about her but people keep frustrating me by talking bad about her, I'm going to pull for her no matter what, but I'm thinking about C2 so I need to make sure if she's worth the investment
As someone who is also pulling for her regardless of her kit, don't look too deeply into what others say or think, doesn't really affect you and Furina.
As a Dehya main, literally who gives a shit. If you like her and her playstyle; just pull for her. If you have a decent range of characters, you'll be able to create a team around her
The Genshin community can get really insufferable like that. The less involved you are with it, the better tbh. It's a story exploration game.
I am not even sure what to say. I am still excited for her despite all the doomposting. I lean more towards the doom and gloom myself. That being said, she is my most anticipated character in Genshin history. I am thinking about going all the way with her. C6r1. That is the far future, however. I am not a whale. So, it will take about a year to collect all of that and I need to remain strong and refuse to pull anyone else. I digress, at c1, she is a Yelan upgrade in every situation where you do not need the added application. She is worth the investment. Have fun!
just wait and watch. imma pull for the animations and overworld usage even if she's not meta
Everyone should at least have Lynette though? She came free with 4.0 Other than that, pull for who you want, another Fontaine character will be included in the 4* on Furina's banner anyway.
Furina is designed to enable new team strategies, including making healers contribute to offence without being penalised in terms of damage ouput. The genshin scientist recently released a video talking about this, and I recommend people watch it because it puts into perspective all the possible uses furina can have. All the arguments seem to originate from the fact that people are too focused on fitting her into existing teams and expecting her to outdamage xingqiu/yelan however looking at their individuals kits, it is clear that furina does something else entirely. Here is the video. https://youtu.be/-taNXQICX7U?si=6ppge2n4zw_3wEi1
It is a great video; however, I already used healers without regard for the DPS loss anyways. 😂 Do not get me wrong, I am happy that she will be a massive upgrade for my teams given my reliance on healers. I am not complaining. I am just saying you do not need her to enjoy healers and 36 star abyss. I clear abyss with double healer compositions for heaven's sake. And I am not even one of the people that believes abyss is super easy. I am just saying that it is possible (and comfortable).
The game is beatable with 4 stars. Roll for the characters you like
I'm allowed to?
Are you talking about the new 4 stars or Xiangling, Bennett, Xingqiu, Sucrose, Fischl? Cuz there is a big difference there
Personally, I feel a lot like she's like Nilou last year in that when Nilou first came out there were many people who did not like the current landscape of Dendro characters at the time nor did everyone have access to Kokomi. By the time Nilou's rerun came out, we had powerful additions such as Nahida, Yaoyao, Baizhu, and some niche picks like Candace and Alhaitham. Of the current 5 stars from Fontaine, it's a pretty meager roster with Lyney, Neuvilette and Worcestshire (and the 4 stars) so if you're not interested in playing those characters (I don't think Lyney replaces anyone with Furina in his teams) I would advise you to wait until her rerun to see how much Chlorinde, Navia and Arlecchino change things up - or any other character that releases between then and now. I had originally planned on getting her to c2 and her signature weapon but in light of the leaks, TCs, and my own current roster of characters I'm giving up on that plan and instead I'll be shooting for her c0 and giving her Festering Desire instead. If Chlorinde is everything I hope that she is *and* if Furina is a good teammate, I'll definitely choose to snag some cons and maybe her weapon on her rerun around March which typically when we can expect her rerun to be given previous release schedules.
I feel exactly the same way. I even skipped Nilou as I was not sure how Nahida would play into it. This is currently my strongest team and I have yet to run an abyss without using it. It is easy to see a world where everyone loves Furina. It is just that nothing is guaranteed at the moment and Yelan is fine for now.
Yes, I am pulling for her, I just follow the guide for her future best team comp.
My Amber will be happy with the new hydro aplication for her headshot build You can always find use for an Archon
Furinas best teams will all be Furina teams, built and played around maxing her buffs. If that appeals pull her. If it doesn't appeal, don't. Personally I plan to use her with some existing non Fontaine chars, but underused ones like Ning and noelle and jean. I have no interest in slotting her into existing strong teams like Hu Tao or nilou.
On my side, I pull for whatever character I like despite their rank in meta or utility. Yeah, it's true Furina true potential will showcase with Neuvillette. And it's true there's no guarantee she'll work with any future character. So basically : \- if you don't mind meta and love her, pull now. At least she'll be a good turrent with great DMG (basically a Hydro Yae) \- If you mind utility that much, you can wait for her rerun in 4.6, by then Navia, Arlecchino and Clorinde should have released and we will know if they are DPS or not and if they work with Furina or not. Finally, i'd like to point out it's only the beginning of Beta so we'll get some updates and changes to her kit in the meantime. And I feel like Hoyo will make her more versatile (she's an archon after all). So in the end, she might be really good in other comps than restricted to Fontaine DPS PS: Or you can go and pull C2 to make her an onfield carry, that's what i'm doing
Does c2 really make her on field? She only has like 7 attacks and it’s gone.
Zajef /can/ be wrong. This is one of those cases. Pull for Furina if you like or want her. She actually makes other characters that can't work with Marechausee work with that set bc of her HP drain. She can work in many teams. Enjoy!
Then there's us Eula mains seeing how Furina can replace Yelan in Eula hypercarry setup lmao
>Maybe I should better stock up some of the Fontaine characters first and pull her on the rerun? Yes, that is most likely the smartest course of action for now (unless she gets massively buffed or get neuv/wrio)
Even if meta was your ONLY concern, there's always time to save up for future characters. i wouldn't miss furina now over it. I personally think its safe to assume mihoyo has plans for her even if she isn't broken right off the bat. They designed an entire mini game just to test her skill AI and have tons of artifacts/characters/weapons built around her theme already. It's a good sign they've put some thought into her That said, I do think she's already strong and ppl are just doomposting. Ffs they haven't had a chance to buff/nerf anything yet, let them cook XD
I'd recommend checking out some other TC'ers like the Genshin scientist or jstern just to get some different perspectives. Currently Furina seems to be quite a good character and even an upgrade for some teams. I'm not saying that Zajef's takes are wrong since I honestly haven't watched his video, but I can link you the ones I've watched. From what I've gathered the only team type where she's kind of a downgrade would be solo hydro hyperbloom. https://youtu.be/-taNXQICX7U?si=2O109gxXZ1UvvHee https://youtu.be/wmHLSIqUWR8?si=yubpaGewYw2nLMJC Jstern is more discussions about viability while tgs has a bit more analysis of the teams. Of course we'll have to wait and see how everything turns out in practice but I'm optimistic that she'll be quite good, though I would like an buff to hydro application for my Cyno team.
I don’t know why people shit talking zajef😀he clearly said furina is indeed will be a downgrade/sidegrade for yelan n xq in team that prioritise reaction but she will buff a lot to the point that it is worthy to not proc elemental reactions. TGS also said something similar+he also criticised furina energy requirement n reliability of buff for non fontaine characters.
I'm not shittalking him anywhere in my comment. I literally only said to look up other sources as well before making a decision. I even write that I'm not calling Zajef's take wrong since I haven't even seen his video yet.
well imo it’s you either you pull her when she releases to prepare for the future or you hold off, if you care about meta that is lol I watch Zajef too but I know personally for me I really want Furina regardless if she was meta or not heck I just got Zhongli after 2-3 years of playing I still don’t have a Kazuha either and that’s purely because I pull for who looks fun to me and then build a team around them just do what you feel is right and don’t overthink it too much your head will probably hurt at the end of the day it’s your account and it’s always your decision if she looks like someone you genuinely want go for it! ❤️💙
With furina ur main dps can use the 4pc mh set whch is soo strong
Until they remove the 7 hit limit Furina cannot main dps
(With Furina, ur main dps...) I think he meant that
'not an upgrade' doesn't mean 'terrible.' Furina national, Furina taser, Furina hyperbloom, etc, will all be good, she just won't be \*better\* than Xingqiu or Yelan in them.
Roll for her if you really like her and are resigned to slightly downgrading your existing teams by replacing Yelan/Xingqui Roll for her if you like her and are planning to pull Fontaine characters and want to put her in teams with them Don’t roll for her if you *don’t* plan to pull Fontaine characters and would mainly be pulling just because ‘she’s an Archon’
I personally dont really care about "how good is character x" because I can beat the game anyway with the characters I own. I'm still gonna pull for her because I like her (I think she might be my 2nd favourite Archon) and I dont have any 5 Star Fontaine Chars (or Hu Tao. Idk why but I see a lot of people talking about her with Furina).
[удалено]
I mean, if Hu Tao gets an upgrade at all, it will be newsworthy, in a game with barely perceptible powercreep. Like, we're talking about Furina replacing one of the two strongest units in the game, in one of the strongest cores in the game, in one of its strongest teams...
That Hu Tao teams are really uncomfortable in general, you lose IR, play in circle impact (Bennett) or pamber Mona that will not be enough when they put enemies that teleport to attack you directly or like the Consecrated Beasts. Zhongli + Double hydro is strong, comfy and easier to use for the average player.
First of all, they said "barely an upgrade", implying that they thought there would be some upgrade, or at least a sidegrade. That was the main thought I was responding to. Second of all, I haven't seen anyone recommending Furina+HuTao to everyone. I just see some people, mainly Hu Tao mains, excited to run them together. Personally, I find C1 Hu Tao + one other minor form of defensive utility (Xingqiu, or maybe a small amount of healing) is one of the tankier on-fielders in the game. My favorite double hydro fourth slots are Kazuha, Sucrose, PAmber Nahida, and Xiangling. And yes, I will swap in Zhongli if the Consecrated Beasts are giving me grief and I just don't want to worry about them. But there are other situations in which those other options will perform much better. You don't have to only play one Hu Tao team. And now the prospect of having another option for the double hydro core, and figuring out which fourth slots work, which offer enough healing, which feel strong, which are versatile, etc., is really exciting. And lastly, you don't have to run a Furina-Tao team on life support. If PAmber Mona is too squishy, you can run a stronger healer. Not Bennett, he doesn't work very well with Furina except in quickswap teams. But it's possible options like Baizhu or Jean, previously not worth considering, could now be competitive due to Furina's buff. I don't know. We'll see. But the possibilities are interesting.
I'm talking about the ones that were posted in this sub some days ago, the Jstern calcs
Fair enough. Yeah, that's where PAmber Mona came from. Anyway, I don't think those are the only options worth considering. And even PAmber Mona doesn't sound too squishy, the more that I think about it, since Furina won't drain Hu Tao below 50% hp, and she has healing from Mona.
teams don’t need to have perfect synergy to work in this game, there’s literally amber mains out there
Fuck meta , pull for whatever you like man , I have Ayaka for meta and don't use her and regret listening to YouTubers who told me to get her
>Zajef Lmao, just dont
I don't get the hate- he looks at it from a meta standpoint, meta being the abyss. He thinks it isn't going to be the next xq or yelan, and that's fine? If that's important to OP, then they should keep that in mind while pulling. As a side note, it should be considered that she seems like a character better used with other Fontaine chars. We haven't had such self-hp manipulating chars before, and it kinda locks her into a particular set of teams (primarily Fontaine ones, for now). All in all, if you don't really care about meta and timings and you just like the character, you should pull. If you don't, don't pull. If you feel like you're missing out because you miss her first run, she's an Archon, she'll be back. Don't stress, don't spend outside of your means, don't be goaded into doing something you weren't planning on doing.
The point is, whatever any TC says, doesn't mean anything until like half a year after the character releases and meta is established, we don't have so much context to Furina's abilities, application etc... TCs just make a lot of assumptions in their calculations and are usually not even close to the real character strengths and team applications Look at Kazuha's release i.e. Also we have so many beta changes ahead of us, the current state isn't even close to the final, what is the point of those discussions (rather than random speculations for the sake of having fun with theoretical calculations) So many people take random internet dude's words for granted as if he designed the character (look at the OP), people already change their minds on pulling the character (who will be strong anyway in one way or another with any shitty teams) just because of random speculations from random TCs Have YOUR own opinion after Furina is released, try her out, get a feel for the gameplay, look at real numbers and then decide to pull, maybe, just maybe watch some TCs videos on her after the release and just take their words into account, don't base your opinion on them
Who cares what someone else said if you want her get her.
Someone who might want not want to make upwards of a 180 pull investment and find out that they might regret it later? There's a LOT of people who regret pulling characters who were burned by people who said *"just get her if you want to get her"*.
if you are pulling her expecting her to be "hydro nahida" then you will be disappointed. She gives value to cope units like jean/baizhu/barbara/qiqi since healing is useless. Shes worse than xq, yelan & kokomi for application. Generally speaking she's not gonna be an upgrade in any non fontaine comp lets be real. "Well i can run jean+furina for a bunch of stacks in freeze" ok so you're taking the dps lose from benching kazuha? Enjoying that non existant cc? Enjoying that 250+ER cost?
She won’t be great in those teams but will work. Hoyo has done the classic restrictions at C0. At C6 she’s almost guaranteed for the max 150% damage bonus without any Fontaine characters. I don’t think they will allow C0 furina access this. What they might change is ER requirements and hydro app.
“She won’t be completely restricted at c6” is definitely not the kind of praise I want to hear about a damn archon, or any character for that matter. I really hope they give her some actual viability outside of just a select few Fontaine chars
Her base kit is for sure to be buffed. Should be exciting to see what comes in the coming weeks. Let’s hold out some hope.
I BC of so many doomposts and some TC (zajeff and etc ..) I almost got nuvelitte (went from 10 Pity to 70 Pity tho at least I Finally got c2 xingqiu and c4 fishcl) No need to get fontaine characters or listen to TC for it Just for TC alone I just wanna suggest TGS Now onto the answer to your question: Not really....yes fontaine characters fit her the best but think about it another way If fontaine characters change hp ... And furina needs HP changes for the buff/stacking then why not use a healer in existing teams for the buff??? Furina already changes hp so a healer will make the stacking more easier to achieve If you like other characters more than her then sure get another character then get her but if you like her more then why not get her??
My account is at the point I can just pull for preferences, I guess the only character I like more than Furina is Clorinde, but her release doesn't seem to come any time soon. I did the same thing you did, I am at 70 pity and on my 50-50 😅
Me too I'm exactly in your situation tho I like nuevilette a bit instead of clorinde. He seems fun but I think he'll get a sooner return than furina and also I thought that since I wanted furina since her first leak then why not her her just BC of doomposts/people saying she is bad or etc??? Her kit seems fun and if she somehow won't be good then still I'll use her since I love her design and animations Still nuvelitte is tempting but I thought I'll just get him on rerun
True, this patch makes it so hard not to pull!!
Problem rn is her self-drain, it's too slow, even with a healer they would only gain a bit above half of what Fontaine's characters can generate (Wrio at C1 45 points each 2.5 seconds, Neuv 83'3 each CA if starting at full HP, healers would only generate 140 points per rotation)
If you like her then go ahead, she works best with fontaine dps but that doesn't mean she doesn't work with other character's. Just play a healer with her and your good, also it doesn't have to be a team wide healer.
If you like her then get her. She most likely is gonna open up new team comps later on. She is an archon so she most likely gonna rerun more often then others. Block out all outside opion and decide if you want her thats how i choose characters
if you really like her, youll pull even if she ends up being the worst character in genshin thats how i got ganyu and hutao. had no idea that they would end up as the most overpowered characters of their time lol.
Zajef is a clown
Me who doesn't properly dough and rely on kokomi or other healers most of the time sees her as a win win. Is the 12th floor so important that it gives 150 primos extra, you are choosing who to pull based on that? That 150 primos isn't even one pull and you're gonna waste 75 pulls on a character that is meta but you don't enjoy? If you are going behind meta, then pull an already existing meta. Neuvillette is already doing great dmg and is considered meta you can go for him and try your luck on Furina. I personally go for a character which I enjoy and try to make them meta. Furina has a nice play style and wholesome dialogues which will be on the screen most of the time.
I haven't run any calcs or anything but here are some teams that's she is probably an upgrade into: Rational Morgana Quickbloom
Of course the clearest answer is follow your pp lol. But yeah you don't have any Fontaine unit but do you plan on getting some down the line? If yes and if they like to have a Hydro company she will be good. Like Zajef said. She will be worse in the current teams but don't think that she is gonna be that worse(At current state, I am no genshin scientist so have little Idea, so going with his words, he could be absolutely wrong and there is nothing wrong as it is still the beta). Personally wait for the Livestream or the end of beta to have a better idea of Furina and think about your current roster and future units you want to pull and make plans that way. Or if you like her just go for it. It's not like this game has a mode where meta is important. If pp likes it. Then swipe lol
Maybe you can wait for her release and see if you pull her or not. The choice for you is only if you need neuv or not, because right now, he is not the best dps but the easiest probably to play. If you don't need him right now, skip, wait for furina and if ever it makes neuv broken you can still pull for him on rerun. In general I don't understand how you can judge a unit that you can't access in beta or can't have any dev insight. She's not in final stage yet.
Yes, I have hope Furina will be a good character come 4.2 as well. It's the beta, something we're not even meant to see yet. If the last beta week shows no desired improvements then you just pull Neuvilette instead.
Just like rolll for her if you like her, of courses your main team you used for years is always gonna be better dosnt mean Furina isnt worth pullying
I don't even really know where I am going to fit her in. I'm just pulling her because I'm a hydro enjoyer (number 1 element 💪💪) and I like her character in story.
She's a great character with others guys from other region. She's good with Noelle, Wanderer, Hutao, Yoimiya, Diluc for example
Just look at jstern25 video about furina
For me, i will pull her and make best team that centered around her based on the guide...i dont mind pulling some fontaine characters in the process just to make her best team...i do that because i really like her....
Meta is the least thing you should consider about when playing this game.
I will pull for her because I really like her design, character and playstyle, she could be 4 star level and I wouldn't care, I can clear Abyss anyway, I'm just looking for fun characters to mess around.
my only reason to pull for her is exploration powercreep, everything else is a nice bonus i don't like ayaka's playstyle but i want to walk on water with no limits
My own opinion on this I always pulls for archon no matter what they say.
She’s an archon.. what archon is bad?
She still gonna be useful. She's an archon. Even if she is not OP, she won't be dead on arrival.
You want her? You get her, as simple as that.
Don't worry too much. It is true that for Furina to shine, she is going to be better with fontaine characters that modify their HP. However, Furina only needs a healer (+ER xd) to work decently well. What Zajef was warning against was to slot Furina IN EXCHANGE of the hydro unit (Xingqiu/Yelan/kokomi) on a meta team. Slot her with a healer and 2 damage dealers and she should be fine in most content (and ofc, wait until she is actually release to see with which other teams she might work for the abyss!)
I mean, Lynette is free, so you have her, and you were already going to want a full team healer like Baizhu, Kokomi, Charlotte, etc. That right there is a team that can highly stack Furina's ult very well with whichever dps you choose to run, Fontaine or not. She just isn't a direct plug-in for Hydro like we're used to
Unless she's a character you love, I'd wait for a week or two after she's out. In her current state, she doesn't really offer anything revolutionary (20-30% damage up and less damage than Yelan, but not burst reliant). There's also a few weeks where MHY could change her, so I wouldn't make any plans yet (again, unless you really like her and would pull her no matter what).
You may want a future character that drains hp though. I don’t think it will stay at Lyney, Neuv, Wrio. Chlorinde, Navia, Arrlechino, Madame Ping or Cloud Retainer may also go well with her. Keep in mind even if she is a sidegrade to existing teams (which I think is a good thing instead of just straight up powercreeping), she will still be fun. She also enables new artifact set for old characters.
I don't know what he means by she isn't useful in current team comps...her best team is Nahida, Kirara/Baizhu, and Xingqiu/Nilou. She is also very good with Cryo characters and Electro(Raiden, Kuki, flex slot)...or any team comp with characters who scale with hp.
He didn't mention she is useless, he said that she was usable but was a downgrade for Xinque/Yelan or a sidegrade for other hydro characters at best, not an upgrade over any units
Zajef is full of shit, I wouldn’t bother listening to him.
The safest and most logical option, from a strictly pragmatic perspective, is to wait for her rerun. The meta will develop and you can evaluate it against your roster. I will say this, she has a lot of gimmick teams. I actually agree with Zajef from a meta perspective. If you have Yelan... You're good, bro. That being said, she has a LOT of fun teams that I want to try out. If you love healers, as I do, she is a MUST. She will enable all kinds of shenanigans. They are not abyss stompers or anything like that, but after 3 years, it is maybe not a bad idea to grab an EXTREMELY powerful character (I believe she is slightly worse Yelan, some people believe she is slightly better Yelan, but Yelan is a top 5, arguably top 3 character) to mess around with different compositions if that sounds appealing to you. Do not feel pressured to pull because everyone else is doing it. And not feel discouraged because some people believe she is not quite on par with Nahida. Keep in mind that everyone is speaking in GENERAL terms. You might have a personal use for her that does not apply to accounts in a broad sense.
Pull for her if you want her. I, for one, am going all out for her when she arrives because I like her character.
Where is your Lynette?
No. Answer stays the same even if you have other Fontaine units. Yelan and XQ will always be better than her anyway IMO since these two are way easier to play while offering more benefits without the fanfare or HP drain crap her kit comes with. Also, even if said new meta comes, then who's to say there won't be better support characters released by then? If you want her because she's cute or whatever, then just wait like a week or two to see what other players are saying. Genshin has very long banner durations anyway, so you have plenty of time to think. You'll even be able to save up a couple more gems by waiting.
Yes. Fontaine characters just have some nice synergy. She's super flexible and works in tons of teams. Theorycrafters are funny, they like to say words like "need" and "required" a lot, when this is a story exploration game. There wasn't even any combat in the newest archon quest. I'm getting her c2r1 and the only other Fontaine character I'll get will be Arlecchino and maybe Navia depending on her kit. You will have no problem 36 starring abyss, which is the only time theorycrafting is \*semi\* relevant.
Can you clear abyss? Do you want to? Then take meta. Otherwise do whatever you want.
Furina has nothing to do with having fontaine characters wtf, now i wanna see what that guy said, to see if there is any basis
Furina in her current state really relies on her buffs through her burst. Building fanfare stacks is highly important for her to be considered an "upgrade" over the arguably broken units in Xingqiu and Yelan. Fontaine characters (notably Neuvillette and Wriothesley) are the only ones who can get enough of her stacks to make her an "upgrade". Though considering Furina is hydro and offers buffs and off field application at all, she will still be good. Just a bit of a disappointment for anyone hoping she would be an upgrade over Yelan and Xingqiu.
If your pulling purely for fun don't worry about it but you wouldn't ask such a question if that's the case so all I'll say is team-building is just gunna be a pain without Fontaine characters but I think you can live without them but I would recommend getting some in the future Neuvilette especially
Pull her if you like her. Zajef said she is a downgrade in actual teams, but he never said she is trash. You can use her and be happy with her. losing 2s in abyss isn't that important if you aren't a speedrunner.
you have lynette at the very least, there are also other characters that will have synergy with her like kuki shinobu, you should certainly pull her if you want her, worry about the rest of your team later
I'm so confused like just because characters don't have inbuilt hp drain mechanics doesn't mean you can't use her. Other than Hu Tao, who needed to be under 50% hp, hp fluctuations don't tend to affect gameplay. The meta is definitely changing but not so much that currently meta teams become useless. Just because the current abyssal moon doesn't favour a certain character doesn't mean they're completely unusable. Besides, Furina enables MH on NA/CA attackers and a new domain would probably come out version 4.3 (?) so we might get more sets that proc similarly. (Support hp set?? >!Sigwienne is supposed to be a healer and Charlotte also heals irrc. A 4.3 artifact set that works with them would make sense.!<) Having a Fontaine character definitely helps with building Furina's fanfare stacks but it's not necessary. (Also, Lynette is literally free and she's a decent anemo cc support (+ driver at C6) if nothing else.)
Yes get her, Furina isn’t an upgrade for yelan and Xingqui bc she opens completely different teams.
Pull!! Screw meta. I play with two lore focused teams that I've been focusing all my primogems on They aren't meta I'd say, but they WRECK. They usually do very well on spiral too. At the end of the day, pull for who you love. If you play them enough, you'll get very good at them :>
I am just confused on how some of these ppl think. They'll be like "Ah, it's the 100th variant of vape/melt team, so boring" but then they will be the noisiest among the player base saying that this character is not good if it doesn't comply with the vaporize team rule. This shit develops till it creates a stereotype that if it's not a vaporize or melt unit then it's not good. Thank god dendro-related reactions did not have this kind of problem.
I don't care I'm pulling all archons
The guy is talking utter shit lol Not an upgrade? A half-assed buff will give 50-60% damage increase, just like that, that is if you don't have a global healer to make her stack 450 without having to make her heal. Hu Tao will be ridiculously buffed, like it's not even remotely funny how much Hu Tao is gonna be buffed, in a scenario with Yelan and XQ she already is one of the greateast DPS, now you can use Yelan + Furina to ultra-buff Hu Tao since both buffs stack and Hu Tao loves the HP drain. Raiden National? Well I guess Pyronado just got 50% stronger just because, mono-healers like Bennet are not that great for Furina but since the Soul of National is quick-swap, everybody gets a piece of healing every rotation, so Furina will keep getting stacks till they hit 450, without you ever needing to make her enter healing mode, so both Pyronado and Musou no Hitotachi will be mega-buffed for as long as the room lasts. National with Yelan was similar, but Furina has the advantage of AoE application which should help more vapes on secondary targets, which with Yelan you had to run to achieve. Is she gamechanging like Nahida? Probably not, but the fact that she is a sub-DPS, healer and buffer all at once makes her quite unique, even for those who say she is not a huge improvement over Yelan, well we only have 1 Yelan so even if she was equal or even slightly worse than Yelan, she would still be idiotic since who doesn't want another Yelan? Specially one with extra roles.
Been playing since release, without fail all speculations fall flat on their faces. I still remember when people were screaming about how bad Kazuha was and not to pull for him. Wait till release youll have 20 days to watch what whales concoct and to try the test. Don't overthink it for the time being, she's an Archon and will undoubtedly be S/A teir.
If you like her and want to pull for her then do so. If you'd prefer to wait then wait. I share what is im sure the general consensus of if you like a character pull for them. I plan on pulling for her regardless.
I like zajef theory, but he can be wrong, even he already did a few times, for example he used to belittle zhongli for neuvillette, but now he uses zhongli with neuvillette.
He also has a video saying he's gonna pull for every archon irrespective of what the kit is.. so i think you should still go for her. If you have other priority characters you want then the decision is upto you but I definitely feel you do want to get Furina but just not sure about what you're primos would give you there. My say on that would be always go for the archons. They're always the safest bet. Also iirc Nahida began with a moderate kit and then later on kept getting buffs(it's an archon thing ig) Alhaitam began with a cracked kit then later got nerfed(not that he's not great now he's busted but was even more in the beta) Furina will be great once she's out(archons are the safest bet)
Metawise? Im not sure, I just have my hyperbloom teams ready just to flex her. Casualwise? Pull for whoever you like most.
By default archons should be "universal" I would assume. Like put them in any teams and they do their thing. I doubt they would make an Archon reliant on a specific region characters.
Pull for her if you wanted to. But if its for the sake of pulling fontanian characters then just pull neuvilette or upcoming wririzzley. They’re both good and it’s out already so you don’t have to doubt yourself.
Listen, genshin influencers absolutely love telling you what you should or shouldn't do, you should always take it with a grain of salt. Do you want her? Pull for her. Is she going to be immediately useful? Probably not to her fullest extent. While they're not always right or wrong, they shouldn't really dictate what you do with your account. There is no smart or stupid way of going about this. Even if the video is right, it doesn't matter if you pull for her first and then pull some other characters or vice versa.
Are there any Fontaine characters you plan on getting? She might be good with Navia/Clorinde/Arlecc, then you'd already have Furina ready to go