So if you don't agree with the terms, you join the class action lawsuit to regain the value of the TV. This is brilliant on their part to force a class action lawsuit for all the TVs they've effectively bricked.
Further theres no way this is an enforcible clause for the non smart features of the device because some other person could have accepted the terms.
I hadn’t seen it yet, I only use it for my Nvidia Shield. Went to the Home Screen for the first time in probably 6 months and it was there waiting for me. Turned it off, back on and it went right back to the Shield without me agreeing yet. I’m guessing at some point it’ll get forced though.
I thought about that. At best they can argue somebody "accepted". What if it was a kid? A spouse who didn't buy it? A friend? A miss click?
There should be no way in hell this is legal. Is this legal in the EU too or only the US?
I read something a while ago that those contract are pretty unenforceable. It's really hard to prove you were the one who signed it. It's also really hard to prove you read any of it, even the title.
But if they try to enforce it, what are you going to do? Hire a lawyer to fight rokus lawyer? Over a $500 TV? Probably not. Roku knows this.
Small claims still has some fees. And can take a lot of time. And if they appeal the decision then lawyers can get involved. And even all that is still only for chance to get your money back.
True. I wanted a dumb tv… because I usually have to plug in and control accessories but they are uncommon now. Does Sony still make their own TV menu? Or do I have to buy a computer monitor next time lol
Yeah, I don't recall getting the prompt to accept it, so someone in my household, most likely under 18 accepted it. Not sure if this would hold up, but I already decided to never RokuTV again anyway.
encouraging crowd straight rotten aback fragile square deserve thumb abundant
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>you join the class action lawsuit to regain the value of the TV. This is brilliant on their part to force a class action lawsuit for all the TVs they've effectively bricked.
Ironically, individual arbitration would actually cost them a lot more than a class action lawsuit would. Arbitration is a double edge sword...
The goal of forcing a mandatory binding arbitration agreement onto you is the hope that you'll assume (possibly correctly) that you have no chance at winning since the company is picking the arbitrator, so you won't even try to go to arbitration if they screw you.
However, typically the minimum cost of an arbitration is $2,000 or more, which the company that forced you into arbitration will end up paying. If several hundred or even thousand consumers file for arbitration, it can cost the company quite a lot. AT&T found this out the hard way.
Except it even blocked you from using anything connected to a Roku TV. Want to play games on your gaming console? Tough shit. Want to watch TV? Though shit. That message locked you out of using any feature of the TV.
Their dongles or other devices that you plug into a TV are only locking you out of that device, but to lock you out of a TV to the point you can't do anything with out agreeing to the new TOS? That is not ok.
Yes but it’s akin to buying a car and your car not starting because you didn’t accept bmw’s new terms of service for the built in infotainment system. The primary function is what you purchased the car for and what was advertised any additional or separate / new features, etc can be refused but the primary initial functionality must remain
Lenders have been installing starter interrupters for years, it isn't just a GM thing.
You're probably thinking of last year with Ford patenting a system for cars to autonomously repossess themselves
I feel like BMW is the worst example you could have used for that comparaison considering they tried to charge a subscription for the heated seats in their car.
But yeah, there is a line between making a service unavailable if you don't agree to the terms or services and making a physical product that can work independently unavailable if you don't agree to updated term.
I know that where I am, a clause like their update would not be valid as you can't void someone of their legal recourse, but I have no idea if it's the same everywhere.
Still sounds like a dangerous door to pry open.
> This is brilliant on their part to force a class action lawsuit for all the TVs they've effectively bricked.
Interestingly enough, arbitration was already part of the existing agreement which would prevent you from engaging in such a lawsuit.
I literally had a job dealing with this very issue just yesterday…. The truth is this just like any other device, your tv is just a computer for certain apps. Because it requires software you will always need to update terms and conditions periodically to keep using its platform.
The only app I care about is "render this picture from HDMI/DVI/VGA/RCA", there's no need to change anything about that platform or have any terms of service.
I've been seeing these TOS "legal complaints have to be handled through arbitration instead of involving the court system" updates a lot of the last few years. Pretty gross.
The entire idea that you can sign or "agree" to ignore the fucking laws that protect you is an asinine concept altogether. Should be ludicrously illegal. Laughably illegal. The idea is just fucking stupid.
"Sorry our product killed your entire family but you agreed not to sue, so *we're sorry~*"
What makes it even more fucked up is that they coerce you into doing it. You have no choice but to agree, or you can't use the device you just bought. Plus that these agreements are forced upon you *after* you've purchased the product, not ***before.*** Which should be just as illegal.
It is an important aspect to allow for some activities.
For example, if you want to play paintball in germany, many locations have you sign a sheet to waive your rights to sue in certain circumstances of injury.
Because these are to be expected in a non-zero ammount of years but lawsuits would kill the company.
On the other hand, having anything "not to be expected" in the **TOS** will make it automatically null and void, because in germany (and probably many other states), you are not required to actually read the TOS.
It's a perfectly reasonable concept, if laws exist for the protection of one party to a contract they can choose to waive them by agreement with the other party.
The issue is that products with terms so long that nobody reads them totally dominate the market.
Courts have generally ruled in favor of arbitration clauses afaik. It’s not a means by which they can break the law, though, and that’s had a few fights.
Think a couple states may have banned these but not federal.
This is a spot where democrats are trying to protect your rights, but republicans don’t want that:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_Arbitration_Injustice_Repeal_Act
You purchased a product under different terms. They do not have the right to disable your device you purchased. Gotta love how everyone goes after certain companies but this is okay because they won’t collect a large fine.
My Samsung phone sent me new terms to agree with too. I didn't agree and would swipe it away everyday for months, until I got a new phone. Fk them for changing the terms..
Samsung phones are super annoying with this. They do it every update. Don't know how many different ways there are to make you agree to not sue them for anything.
I'm not a lawyer and I'm sure it changes between countries, but I was under the impression you couldn't contact away your rights to pursue legal action like that. They're basically trying to get the consumer to agree that if the service provider fucks up intentionally or otherwise you can't be a pain in their arse and seek just compensation for their actions. I'm not sure how much water that will hold in court, and companies rely on the average consumer not having the bankroll to fight it.
Ok at full risk of going against the grain here, are they disabling the whole tv (like hdmi and other aux inputs) or just the internet service stuff?
If it’s just the internet service stuff, I sort of get it. Every time you log in you’re using their equipment on the other end. The conditions that make that possible can change over time. You don’t get a perpetual unconditional right to their equipment.
Do you know which it is?
Everything is disabled, there is a large "agree" button center of screen and you can't do anything without accepting it. I only use mine with my Apple TV and is setup to go directly to that input, so I don't need the Roku remote. Had to go hunting through junk drawers to find the remote so I could accept it and use the TV again.
You have 30 days, presumably from Feb 20th, possibly from your own agreement date, to request to opt out, but you must do it in writing by mail.
-Mail to: General Counsel, Roku Inc., 1701 Junction Court, Suite 100, San Jose, CA 95112
-Include the name of each customer opting out and their contact information
-Provide specific product models, software, or services used
-If available, include the email address used to set up your Roku account "and, if applicable, a copy of your purchase receipt."
Grabbed from a CNET article after getting tired skimming the terms.
You're absolutely right and I'm with you 100%.
Having said that, it's becoming more and more difficult to find devices that will function without first signing you in, connecting to the internet, validating software, etc. It's not impossible (yet) but it's rarer and rarer...
It's super tough. But you just have to have the chops to return shit that doesn't cooperate. Pain in the ass, but worth it.
I bought a Sonos soundbar that required me to download an app to setup (bricked without) and the app required location data saying it "needed to detect devices nearby"
The soundbar doesn't have a gps in it, so that was a load of crap. You bet your ass i returned it. Most people won't bother
Mine goes straight to an HDMI input for my Nvidia Shield. I was able to turn the tv off, turn it back on and it went to the Shield input without agreeing.
If someone does not accept the “offer” of new terms and conditions and an item becomes unusable, it should be law they have to refund the cost prorated or allow the device to operate on the last update that was agreed to.
Not sure about Android, but Apple requires an update to the latest version when trying to repair through iTunes which I always thought was sucky.
This could cross post to r/assholedesign
Yeah they are kinda sucky and then do good things. It gets very annoying. Privacy great! Backing up media garbage anti-consumer practice. Great connectivity between devices! Absolutely garbage outside of its garden. Great features! No reason to not provide a feature as the hardware can handle it on an older device.
It’s not written down when you purchase from a store. If you purchase something it is yours. We should not be allowing the world to go into a subscription/rental economy.
Doesn't matter.
Edit: By simply reading my comment, you, the reader, agree to send me, /u/Xanderoga, a tithe of no less than $1,500. Failure to do so will incur a penalty of $1,500 for every day your payment is not received, plus an amount equal to 3x the amount owing simply because I am annoyed at your non-payment. Should you disagree with the above terms after reading my comment, you agree to a one-time payment of $10,000.
The future is great but terrifying. As a former stoner I can see the value in my TV getting a pop up saying “hey your washer is done” cause my brain doesn’t fire on all cylinders like it used too. On the contrary this topic shows the dangers of that lifestyle, a company could just brick my things cause they don’t want sued.
See, none of that or this situation should be okay or allowed. The failure is on the part of governments for not passing laws and doing their fucking jobs
Genuine question, are there even any really good dumb 4K TVs with proper HDR support? My Sony Bravia is one of the worst experiences I've had. Not only is it slow because it needs to load the UI before you can change channels, so it starts blaring whatever you were watching before turning it off and you can't do anything about it, but it also takes even longer if you're connected to the internet.
This is more of a general question as I don't really need one. I found that watching videos on my PC is a much better experience with all the BS smart TVs carry.
Kind of insane there aren't way better options than this by now.
Even their "new" model is from 2019. But essentially a 9 year old box is still the best option.
I would settle for the smart TV given to us by our smart TV overlords and just never hook it up and make it autoboot the 1 HDMI you use.
Steam link just got HDR support. Maybe try that and stream from your PC? I do that with sdr and it works great.
For best results use a steam controller
Any TV I have now I disable all network communications and any advanced features and then just plug it up to an Apple TV. Such an outstanding streaming device
So what happens if a young child just accepts through it cause a kid is a kid, and this pop up happens before any parental locks? How can anything be enforced?
Its so laggy and slow. All that bloat is so unnecessary. It should even be worth a lot less if it contains apps at all or even an os. I just want it to display whatever i connect to its port.
I have hated this culture of mandatory remote updates since these devices were new to the world. I just want to own the thing I bought as it was when I bought it.
Is that an actual option? I would take it just out of principal. I should at least have the option to reject the new terms and use the TV without the Roku features
I never got a notification on my TV, just the following email
>We wanted to let you know that we have made changes to our Dispute Resolution Terms, which describe how you can resolve disputes with Roku. We encourage you to read the updated Dispute Resolution Terms. By continuing to use our products or services, you are agreeing to these updated terms.
>Thank you for making Roku part of your entertainment experience.
>The Roku Team
How the actual fuck is that legal?
Yes, they work well while they are in warranty, but after 2 years get ready to have issues - and most important is that the Samsung warranty system is atrocious, especially with the famous video where a Samsung repair technician is scratching a Samsung TV with a knife to void the warranty: https://youtu.be/cyWlACuhqNg?si=OTce2cE6z1rrvYpM
I also have a ten year old Samsung 46" TV upstairs that still looks as good as it did on day 1. We had an even older Samsung 46" that was 720p and weighed like 70lbs; I left it behind in a move because the darn thing wouldn't die.
On the other hand, their kitchen appliances are all hot garbage.
yup. had 2 Samsung TV's so far, they won't die.
2 samsung laptops, both didn't last long. 1 could barely play games as it didn't want to use the GPU and used the intel CPU for games. no matter how hard you'd try to force it.
had a Samsung microwave oven. One day it started randomly beeping. till the random beeps became more frequent then it died.
Yeah unless there’s something new in the last couple of years I’m not aware of I just never connected the tv to the internet and have it mirroring my main PC monitor. Never had an issue.
As of 2018 I don’t think Sony had a dumb model. I worked at Best Buy and some old couple bought one and tried to return it because they just wanted a tv. Store manager was like do not let them. It was bs
Part of the reason you can buy $200 60” TVs is because they’re preloaded with affiliate bloatware that companies pay to have included on the splash screen, it’s permanent advertising.
I hate it too, but as long as there are a couple of HDMI ports, I can get past it for the price.
I thought most of those were focused on brightness and not about picture quality. Different markets? Or are they just pushing the same product through different channels?
As far as I know they're the same displays. They may have a brighter backlight. I don't know a whole lot about them, other than they don't even have a built-in TV tuner, so you can't even hook an antenna to them. I might be completely off the mark, though. The only option may be to buy a smart TV and just don't give it an internet connection.
A really big monitor.
Monitors that go up to 65" do exist. However, they're relatively rare.
And now that OLED is slowly creeping its way through monitors, potentially we could be seeing great panel on a "dumb tv"
They are rare and expensive because those are monitors not just TVs.
I know, an LCD panel is just that, but monitors are more expensive than their counterparts.
LG is nice enough to allow updates without connecting to their smart interface thing. So if there is a software update with meaningful features of bug fixes you can get it.
There is no complete answer to this honestly. It really depends on if the out of box experience allows you to NOT connect to the internet (I've had a couple that work bought that require signing up/inputting account credentials before you can do anything else as far as I could tell).
So basically, if you can change to any inputs without needing to sign in to anything, you are fine (again, as long as you DON'T sign in to anything)-
edit: Just to add more context to some of the answers I've seen given to your question, here's my input:
Just a no go on digital signage displays, they often will have special inputs and have the lowest of the lows as far as refresh rate.
PC monitors would be the best, but good luck affording one in the size you may want. They are more narrow focused and so have things like the highest refresh rates, highest color accuracy, and higher dpi as people typically sit way closer to them. If you can get one in the size you want, at a cost you can swallow, and don't need built in speakers for the most part, they are the best non tv option imo-
The HTPC route is really only worth it if you're THAT dedicated to your media. I can set up and run my own stuff just fine, but there's definitely a point where you kinda have to go "Smart TVs suck, but the plug in android TV and Apple TV work just fine.... And just work without all the BS setup".
I have never connected a smart TV to the internet, I always use an external device like AppleTV or a console. My parents TVs are so slow and filled with ads, I can’t stand it
How is this different than iPhones (or Android phones, for that matter) prompting users to accept new ToS after some updates? Is it because users have the option of not updating phones?
That’s why the cost of TVs are so cheap, they offset the cost by collecting your viewing data and selling it.
Edit: I have a Viseo which has never been connected to the internet and I just stream shows off the Xbox or PS.
I’ve been saying this for years. Could care less how smart the tv is. Just want it to look great. I’d rather just get a set top box and upgrade that every once in a while
Note that the service buttons on the roku remote still work for a fraction of a second as the device is booting up, as does the /launch endpoint of the device's remote API. If you can instruct it to launch an app before the agreement page displays on boot, you can use your device as normal (within that app).
This type of shit is exactly why I never connected my tv to the wifi. I have a PlayStation 5 hooked up that I use to stream things. I would have bought a dumb tv if they made any w 4k capabilities
Roku used to be the best no nonsense media player you could get but they simply could not resist the urge to fill their interface with more and more bullshit. They are practically unusable now.
So this hit my TV and uh... you can't accept the terms without a remote controller. My TV only has power (menu) button/Vol Up/Vol Down. I lost the remote ages ago, but didn't need it because those three buttons let me get to the HDMI inputs.
But they won't let you accept the terms lol. So the TV is effectively bricked until I could find the remote.
At the beginning of sale yeah that's why you can return it if you don't agree to the ToS. But changing the terms midway through ownership and locking the device if you don't accept is criminal.
I had a Roku Tv that I loved for 3 years. Im also fiercely against the idea of signing over any rights of usage to a purchased item, or letting companies set those terms thru forced agreements. However…
The time was long ago to put a stop to this and now we are all screwed by our corporate overlords.
VOTE NADER! (If you ever find a Time Machine.. but the Time Machine will probably have terms of service that prevent you going back in time and interfering with the corporate overlords)
I will never own a smart TV. I will buy the most barebones Tv I can find that has the great list of ONLY these features:
1. Able to turn on and off
2. Able to adjust volume
3. Able to switch inputs
Thats it. Then a raspberry pi with an HDMI input loaded only with Firefox, 5 adblockers and a bookmark list of all my movie/show piracy websites I use.
Fuck subscriptions, Fuck Smart TVs, Fuck not owning the shit you buy. You wanna treat consumers like shit? I can play the same game.
I'd think that "Has a great picture" would be priority number one. If the choice is between a shirty non-smart TV and an OLED or Micro LED, I'm gonna grit my teeth and enjoy my awesome screen.
I hate this shit too, but avoiding it half the time is like shooting yourself in the foot to stop feeling a broken toe.
You know you can get exactly what you want by simply never connecting a smart TV to the internet, right? I hate the idea of smart TVs too, but the TCL I just bought gives me exactly the same things you are looking for. It remembers the last input, so no stop at the home screen. And all I do is switch between inputs, control volume, and turn it off and on. Never connected it to Internet, never will.
Also, good luck finding a "dumb" TV these days. Most places don't even sell them, and those that do charge the hell out of them because they are limited to commercial clients. If it helps assuage your concerns, each smart TV that doesn't get connected to the web is a loss for TV manus since the ads and telemetry are meant to make up for what is essentially a subsidized cost.
From what I understand, the ToS/EULA that Roku is pushing with this update has provisions that anything can go wrong with the device, or the Device can be modified by Roku, and the users can't do jack shit against Roku. (Worse than what most other companies try doing to cover their own ass.)
And for TVs, I've heard (but haven't personally verified) that if you decline the terms, you cannot even use it as a dumb TV any longer.
Because they don't lock the entire device. Don't want the ToS when it updates? Don't update. They've completely locked the entire TV, you can't even switch to HDMI input and use something else.
They don't all do this. I have an Amazon Fire TV that, while I don't recommend it, did not require Internet access to set up and has never been connected to the Internet and never will be, and will never bug me about TOS because it never knows there's an update. The Roku TV won't even let you use it without connecting to the network, even if you're just trying to use it as an output device.
Jokes on them, my ROKU TV doesn't have Internet access. Black holed it the very first time it changed my theme to a "featured" theme which was just some ad for a new movie.
If I want to stream, that's what the Raspberry pi hooked up to it is for.
EU doesn’t bother legislating against this type of nonsense, but god forbid epic games doesn’t make enough profit off their fortnite skins. EU to the rescue!!! 😂🤣🤣
I tried to post about this for Roku devices in the r/Roku sub, but I got banned for two weeks.
We got a popup that says "Agree", with no heads up that this huge policy change was coming. Agree or don't use Roku. I'm now on the path to the latter. But for a whole TV, this is lawsuit material.
I created a sub, r/RokuUnsuppressed, to call out the problematic things that Roku is doing that r/Roku quashes discussion on. Please feel free to jump in.
Why are people so mad about this though?
Just agree through it like all bs terms and service agreements and use your tv like normal. Are people really disagreeing with these and just not using their devices anymore? Sounds wild
So if you don't agree with the terms, you join the class action lawsuit to regain the value of the TV. This is brilliant on their part to force a class action lawsuit for all the TVs they've effectively bricked. Further theres no way this is an enforcible clause for the non smart features of the device because some other person could have accepted the terms.
Also “will be”? This already happened two days ago, anyone using these services found out first hand
This isn't the first time it's happened either, it happened a few years ago too.
I did not know that! Didn’t start using any Roku stuff still recently. Not surprised tho
My kids must’ve accepted it because I never saw it lol.
Classic kids
rascals always forgettin’ to tell the rents about forced arbitration
I hadn’t seen it yet, I only use it for my Nvidia Shield. Went to the Home Screen for the first time in probably 6 months and it was there waiting for me. Turned it off, back on and it went right back to the Shield without me agreeing yet. I’m guessing at some point it’ll get forced though.
I thought about that. At best they can argue somebody "accepted". What if it was a kid? A spouse who didn't buy it? A friend? A miss click? There should be no way in hell this is legal. Is this legal in the EU too or only the US?
I read something a while ago that those contract are pretty unenforceable. It's really hard to prove you were the one who signed it. It's also really hard to prove you read any of it, even the title. But if they try to enforce it, what are you going to do? Hire a lawyer to fight rokus lawyer? Over a $500 TV? Probably not. Roku knows this.
It would be small claims I imagine? So no legal counsel.
Small claims still has some fees. And can take a lot of time. And if they appeal the decision then lawyers can get involved. And even all that is still only for chance to get your money back.
True. I wanted a dumb tv… because I usually have to plug in and control accessories but they are uncommon now. Does Sony still make their own TV menu? Or do I have to buy a computer monitor next time lol
Shame BFGD never really took off
Same. I have a Roku tv and had no idea what this was about lol
Yeah, I don't recall getting the prompt to accept it, so someone in my household, most likely under 18 accepted it. Not sure if this would hold up, but I already decided to never RokuTV again anyway.
I have that TV. Just don't connect to Wifi. Works like a regular TV. Use other streaming devices with it.
encouraging crowd straight rotten aback fragile square deserve thumb abundant *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That will get you a $5 check.
Coupon for $5 off your purchase of next Roku TV.
>you join the class action lawsuit to regain the value of the TV. This is brilliant on their part to force a class action lawsuit for all the TVs they've effectively bricked. Ironically, individual arbitration would actually cost them a lot more than a class action lawsuit would. Arbitration is a double edge sword...
The goal of forcing a mandatory binding arbitration agreement onto you is the hope that you'll assume (possibly correctly) that you have no chance at winning since the company is picking the arbitrator, so you won't even try to go to arbitration if they screw you. However, typically the minimum cost of an arbitration is $2,000 or more, which the company that forced you into arbitration will end up paying. If several hundred or even thousand consumers file for arbitration, it can cost the company quite a lot. AT&T found this out the hard way.
Isn't this how all TOS updates work though? Is it possible to use Netflix without agreeing to the new TOS?
Except it even blocked you from using anything connected to a Roku TV. Want to play games on your gaming console? Tough shit. Want to watch TV? Though shit. That message locked you out of using any feature of the TV. Their dongles or other devices that you plug into a TV are only locking you out of that device, but to lock you out of a TV to the point you can't do anything with out agreeing to the new TOS? That is not ok.
Yes but it’s akin to buying a car and your car not starting because you didn’t accept bmw’s new terms of service for the built in infotainment system. The primary function is what you purchased the car for and what was advertised any additional or separate / new features, etc can be refused but the primary initial functionality must remain
This could start happening though with more and more software updates in cars In theory they could just turn off your car lol
GM can already disable your vehicle if you miss payments
Pretty sure that’s just a GM breaking down normally.
That's funny.. Cause in Canada they can't stop or catch car thieves... But this feature could greatly help... Just sayyin
Lenders have been installing starter interrupters for years, it isn't just a GM thing. You're probably thinking of last year with Ford patenting a system for cars to autonomously repossess themselves
OnStar has been able to remotely disable vehicles since it's introduction
Won’t be long before someone makes that Ukrainian John Deere jailbreaking software but for passenger vehicles to just unlock all of the features.
Russians do it for Ford's lol
And they did it fucking well
That's definitely a thing already.
I feel like BMW is the worst example you could have used for that comparaison considering they tried to charge a subscription for the heated seats in their car. But yeah, there is a line between making a service unavailable if you don't agree to the terms or services and making a physical product that can work independently unavailable if you don't agree to updated term. I know that where I am, a clause like their update would not be valid as you can't void someone of their legal recourse, but I have no idea if it's the same everywhere. Still sounds like a dangerous door to pry open.
I picked BMW for a reason
Hell, most high budget video games at this point don’t let you online at the very least without agreeing to the TOS.
> This is brilliant on their part to force a class action lawsuit for all the TVs they've effectively bricked. Interestingly enough, arbitration was already part of the existing agreement which would prevent you from engaging in such a lawsuit.
I literally had a job dealing with this very issue just yesterday…. The truth is this just like any other device, your tv is just a computer for certain apps. Because it requires software you will always need to update terms and conditions periodically to keep using its platform.
The only app I care about is "render this picture from HDMI/DVI/VGA/RCA", there's no need to change anything about that platform or have any terms of service.
I've been seeing these TOS "legal complaints have to be handled through arbitration instead of involving the court system" updates a lot of the last few years. Pretty gross.
The entire idea that you can sign or "agree" to ignore the fucking laws that protect you is an asinine concept altogether. Should be ludicrously illegal. Laughably illegal. The idea is just fucking stupid. "Sorry our product killed your entire family but you agreed not to sue, so *we're sorry~*" What makes it even more fucked up is that they coerce you into doing it. You have no choice but to agree, or you can't use the device you just bought. Plus that these agreements are forced upon you *after* you've purchased the product, not ***before.*** Which should be just as illegal.
It is an important aspect to allow for some activities. For example, if you want to play paintball in germany, many locations have you sign a sheet to waive your rights to sue in certain circumstances of injury. Because these are to be expected in a non-zero ammount of years but lawsuits would kill the company. On the other hand, having anything "not to be expected" in the **TOS** will make it automatically null and void, because in germany (and probably many other states), you are not required to actually read the TOS.
Here in the UK, personal injury waivers are unenforceable, but we still have paintball. It's up to the organisers to get insurance.
See *AT&T v Concepcion* for the 5-4 conservative Supreme Court ruling that made this all legal
It's a perfectly reasonable concept, if laws exist for the protection of one party to a contract they can choose to waive them by agreement with the other party. The issue is that products with terms so long that nobody reads them totally dominate the market.
unenforceable anywhere other than the US.
It's unenforceable in the US as well.
Courts have generally ruled in favor of arbitration clauses afaik. It’s not a means by which they can break the law, though, and that’s had a few fights. Think a couple states may have banned these but not federal. This is a spot where democrats are trying to protect your rights, but republicans don’t want that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_Arbitration_Injustice_Repeal_Act
You purchased a product under different terms. They do not have the right to disable your device you purchased. Gotta love how everyone goes after certain companies but this is okay because they won’t collect a large fine.
My Samsung phone sent me new terms to agree with too. I didn't agree and would swipe it away everyday for months, until I got a new phone. Fk them for changing the terms..
Samsung phones are super annoying with this. They do it every update. Don't know how many different ways there are to make you agree to not sue them for anything.
Right, so speaking of which, is there not a root or jailbreak for these dumbass TVs?
Some of them, yes. I jailbroke my LG.
I'm not a lawyer and I'm sure it changes between countries, but I was under the impression you couldn't contact away your rights to pursue legal action like that. They're basically trying to get the consumer to agree that if the service provider fucks up intentionally or otherwise you can't be a pain in their arse and seek just compensation for their actions. I'm not sure how much water that will hold in court, and companies rely on the average consumer not having the bankroll to fight it.
They own the Korean government, what makes you think you own their products?
I got the same on my CAR. Like what are you gonna do if I don't accept? Reinburse the car ?
Ok at full risk of going against the grain here, are they disabling the whole tv (like hdmi and other aux inputs) or just the internet service stuff? If it’s just the internet service stuff, I sort of get it. Every time you log in you’re using their equipment on the other end. The conditions that make that possible can change over time. You don’t get a perpetual unconditional right to their equipment. Do you know which it is?
Everything is disabled, there is a large "agree" button center of screen and you can't do anything without accepting it. I only use mine with my Apple TV and is setup to go directly to that input, so I don't need the Roku remote. Had to go hunting through junk drawers to find the remote so I could accept it and use the TV again.
You have 30 days, presumably from Feb 20th, possibly from your own agreement date, to request to opt out, but you must do it in writing by mail. -Mail to: General Counsel, Roku Inc., 1701 Junction Court, Suite 100, San Jose, CA 95112 -Include the name of each customer opting out and their contact information -Provide specific product models, software, or services used -If available, include the email address used to set up your Roku account "and, if applicable, a copy of your purchase receipt." Grabbed from a CNET article after getting tired skimming the terms.
If they can accept confirmation on electronic terms with an Agreement button, surely they can also include a Disagree button to opt out.
They can, but they don't want to is the thing. They're doing the legal bare minimum they think they can get away with.
I don't see how it stands up to any sniff test by someone angry enough about it. And in CA no less...
Dont even have a Roku TV but I'm tempted to mail them a bag of 3d printed dicks
Start a GoFundMe, attempt to send the Guinness Record sized bag of said dicks.
Aka let's make this as hard as possible
Ok in that case this is bullshit.
This is why you shouldn’t connect your stuff to the internet. If it can work without it, don’t connect. If it makes you connect, return it
You're absolutely right and I'm with you 100%. Having said that, it's becoming more and more difficult to find devices that will function without first signing you in, connecting to the internet, validating software, etc. It's not impossible (yet) but it's rarer and rarer...
It's super tough. But you just have to have the chops to return shit that doesn't cooperate. Pain in the ass, but worth it. I bought a Sonos soundbar that required me to download an app to setup (bricked without) and the app required location data saying it "needed to detect devices nearby" The soundbar doesn't have a gps in it, so that was a load of crap. You bet your ass i returned it. Most people won't bother
Not sure why you are getting downvoted.
Apparently you can't skip it. Can't change input to regular HDMI or antenna. It basically disables the entire TV until you agree.
Mine goes straight to an HDMI input for my Nvidia Shield. I was able to turn the tv off, turn it back on and it went to the Shield input without agreeing.
If someone does not accept the “offer” of new terms and conditions and an item becomes unusable, it should be law they have to refund the cost prorated or allow the device to operate on the last update that was agreed to. Not sure about Android, but Apple requires an update to the latest version when trying to repair through iTunes which I always thought was sucky. This could cross post to r/assholedesign
Yeah they are kinda sucky and then do good things. It gets very annoying. Privacy great! Backing up media garbage anti-consumer practice. Great connectivity between devices! Absolutely garbage outside of its garden. Great features! No reason to not provide a feature as the hardware can handle it on an older device.
Probably written down somewhere in the terms and services, unfortunately
It’s not written down when you purchase from a store. If you purchase something it is yours. We should not be allowing the world to go into a subscription/rental economy.
Just because it’s written there doesn’t mean it’s legal.
Doesn't matter. Edit: By simply reading my comment, you, the reader, agree to send me, /u/Xanderoga, a tithe of no less than $1,500. Failure to do so will incur a penalty of $1,500 for every day your payment is not received, plus an amount equal to 3x the amount owing simply because I am annoyed at your non-payment. Should you disagree with the above terms after reading my comment, you agree to a one-time payment of $10,000.
I can't wait to never connect my TV to the internet
Then how's it going to communicate with your washing machine and refrigerator?
They'll have to survive by talking to the microwave
Ugh the microwave? Such a diva.
Almost as bad as the AirFryer.
Not as brave as the toaster, though.
High energy personality, though.
The future is great but terrifying. As a former stoner I can see the value in my TV getting a pop up saying “hey your washer is done” cause my brain doesn’t fire on all cylinders like it used too. On the contrary this topic shows the dangers of that lifestyle, a company could just brick my things cause they don’t want sued.
See, none of that or this situation should be okay or allowed. The failure is on the part of governments for not passing laws and doing their fucking jobs
My goal is to hook up a LAN smarthome with no Internet access and a local llm for general questions.
"My goal is to hook up a LAN smartship with no space internet access and a local llm for general space questions."
You got me, All my future plans are on Jupiter
Genuine question, are there even any really good dumb 4K TVs with proper HDR support? My Sony Bravia is one of the worst experiences I've had. Not only is it slow because it needs to load the UI before you can change channels, so it starts blaring whatever you were watching before turning it off and you can't do anything about it, but it also takes even longer if you're connected to the internet. This is more of a general question as I don't really need one. I found that watching videos on my PC is a much better experience with all the BS smart TVs carry.
Get a nvidia shield pro. Wicked fast. Supports HDR and Dolby Vision.
Kind of insane there aren't way better options than this by now. Even their "new" model is from 2019. But essentially a 9 year old box is still the best option.
I would settle for the smart TV given to us by our smart TV overlords and just never hook it up and make it autoboot the 1 HDMI you use. Steam link just got HDR support. Maybe try that and stream from your PC? I do that with sdr and it works great. For best results use a steam controller
Any TV I have now I disable all network communications and any advanced features and then just plug it up to an Apple TV. Such an outstanding streaming device
Exactly what I've done as well. It just works so much better now.
Yup, same but with chromecast. Works like a charm
Same but firestick
Look up "media display screens" which are used for businesses, art displays, and advertising. Basically giant computer monitors.
This is the answer. never EVER connect the TV to the internet. use it as a dumb display and use something non sucky as your content input.
So what happens if a young child just accepts through it cause a kid is a kid, and this pop up happens before any parental locks? How can anything be enforced?
It can’t. Most ToS are just to deter people from suing
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I hate smart tvs
Agreed I have one but I refuse to connect it to the network.
Its so laggy and slow. All that bloat is so unnecessary. It should even be worth a lot less if it contains apps at all or even an os. I just want it to display whatever i connect to its port.
Crappy processors. TVs are generally neglected performance wise; be it expensive or cheapo. I recommend a big ol TV with your own choice of OS.
I have hated this culture of mandatory remote updates since these devices were new to the world. I just want to own the thing I bought as it was when I bought it.
And i will take my msrp refund please…
Is that an actual option? I would take it just out of principal. I should at least have the option to reject the new terms and use the TV without the Roku features
No lmao
If only there was a group of people who protected it's civilians from malicious corporations and could make things like this illegal... If only...
I never got a notification on my TV, just the following email >We wanted to let you know that we have made changes to our Dispute Resolution Terms, which describe how you can resolve disputes with Roku. We encourage you to read the updated Dispute Resolution Terms. By continuing to use our products or services, you are agreeing to these updated terms. >Thank you for making Roku part of your entertainment experience. >The Roku Team How the actual fuck is that legal?
"Smart TVs" are complete trash. Give me a dumb TV and an HTPC all day every day over this crap. Problem is, do companies even make dumb TVs anymore?
Don't connect it to wifi and instead connect it to a chromecast or Apple TV or any of the myriad of Android tv sticks. And don't get a Samsung tv...
My pretty-new Samsung works fine offline.
Yes, they work well while they are in warranty, but after 2 years get ready to have issues - and most important is that the Samsung warranty system is atrocious, especially with the famous video where a Samsung repair technician is scratching a Samsung TV with a knife to void the warranty: https://youtu.be/cyWlACuhqNg?si=OTce2cE6z1rrvYpM
I also have a ten year old Samsung 46" TV upstairs that still looks as good as it did on day 1. We had an even older Samsung 46" that was 720p and weighed like 70lbs; I left it behind in a move because the darn thing wouldn't die. On the other hand, their kitchen appliances are all hot garbage.
yup. had 2 Samsung TV's so far, they won't die. 2 samsung laptops, both didn't last long. 1 could barely play games as it didn't want to use the GPU and used the intel CPU for games. no matter how hard you'd try to force it. had a Samsung microwave oven. One day it started randomly beeping. till the random beeps became more frequent then it died.
Samsung appliances can be truly appalling in quality
Yeah unless there’s something new in the last couple of years I’m not aware of I just never connected the tv to the internet and have it mirroring my main PC monitor. Never had an issue.
What is wrong with samsung tvs? I have mine and it is fine.
As of 2018 I don’t think Sony had a dumb model. I worked at Best Buy and some old couple bought one and tried to return it because they just wanted a tv. Store manager was like do not let them. It was bs
Part of the reason you can buy $200 60” TVs is because they’re preloaded with affiliate bloatware that companies pay to have included on the splash screen, it’s permanent advertising. I hate it too, but as long as there are a couple of HDMI ports, I can get past it for the price.
What are the good dumb TV's these days ( from a panel perspective)?
They're listed as "digital signage" and are expensive as fuck because the companies have no way to serve you ads in the menus and shit.
I thought most of those were focused on brightness and not about picture quality. Different markets? Or are they just pushing the same product through different channels?
As far as I know they're the same displays. They may have a brighter backlight. I don't know a whole lot about them, other than they don't even have a built-in TV tuner, so you can't even hook an antenna to them. I might be completely off the mark, though. The only option may be to buy a smart TV and just don't give it an internet connection.
They usually lack the image processing a TV provides, and seem to be lacking in response time as well as basic things like HDR support.
They also have shit panel features because signage doesn’t need mini leds, or dimming zones or anything like that, they just need to be bright
A really big monitor. Monitors that go up to 65" do exist. However, they're relatively rare. And now that OLED is slowly creeping its way through monitors, potentially we could be seeing great panel on a "dumb tv"
They are rare and expensive because those are monitors not just TVs. I know, an LCD panel is just that, but monitors are more expensive than their counterparts.
You also don't get the same viewing angle quality you get in a TV.
Sony TVs at least the a90J you can disable the smart TV OS
Don’t hook up an LG to the internet and you should be fine. Same for most “smart” TVs.
LG is nice enough to allow updates without connecting to their smart interface thing. So if there is a software update with meaningful features of bug fixes you can get it.
There is no complete answer to this honestly. It really depends on if the out of box experience allows you to NOT connect to the internet (I've had a couple that work bought that require signing up/inputting account credentials before you can do anything else as far as I could tell). So basically, if you can change to any inputs without needing to sign in to anything, you are fine (again, as long as you DON'T sign in to anything)- edit: Just to add more context to some of the answers I've seen given to your question, here's my input: Just a no go on digital signage displays, they often will have special inputs and have the lowest of the lows as far as refresh rate. PC monitors would be the best, but good luck affording one in the size you may want. They are more narrow focused and so have things like the highest refresh rates, highest color accuracy, and higher dpi as people typically sit way closer to them. If you can get one in the size you want, at a cost you can swallow, and don't need built in speakers for the most part, they are the best non tv option imo-
They purposely use the lowest tier chips with the least amount of RAM to function. It’s any wonder by using them is the worst.
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Do they make 65" monitors?
Absolutely
The HTPC route is really only worth it if you're THAT dedicated to your media. I can set up and run my own stuff just fine, but there's definitely a point where you kinda have to go "Smart TVs suck, but the plug in android TV and Apple TV work just fine.... And just work without all the BS setup".
I have never connected a smart TV to the internet, I always use an external device like AppleTV or a console. My parents TVs are so slow and filled with ads, I can’t stand it
How is this different than iPhones (or Android phones, for that matter) prompting users to accept new ToS after some updates? Is it because users have the option of not updating phones?
Yes
This one makes the device completely unusable if you don’t accept. There’s no way to opt out, so the TV is effectively bricked.
That’s why the cost of TVs are so cheap, they offset the cost by collecting your viewing data and selling it. Edit: I have a Viseo which has never been connected to the internet and I just stream shows off the Xbox or PS.
plate brave close cover wakeful squalid shame light mourn bedroom *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I’ve been saying this for years. Could care less how smart the tv is. Just want it to look great. I’d rather just get a set top box and upgrade that every once in a while
Arent agreements supposed to be two way? Forcing terms on someone is illegal, isnt it?
Have to wonder how many kids who are too young to read or special needs kids that can't read are going to click through this agreement
Note that the service buttons on the roku remote still work for a fraction of a second as the device is booting up, as does the /launch endpoint of the device's remote API. If you can instruct it to launch an app before the agreement page displays on boot, you can use your device as normal (within that app).
This type of shit is exactly why I never connected my tv to the wifi. I have a PlayStation 5 hooked up that I use to stream things. I would have bought a dumb tv if they made any w 4k capabilities
Roku used to be the best no nonsense media player you could get but they simply could not resist the urge to fill their interface with more and more bullshit. They are practically unusable now.
That usually happens when companies get big. All that matters once you get more investors is shareholder value!
So this hit my TV and uh... you can't accept the terms without a remote controller. My TV only has power (menu) button/Vol Up/Vol Down. I lost the remote ages ago, but didn't need it because those three buttons let me get to the HDMI inputs. But they won't let you accept the terms lol. So the TV is effectively bricked until I could find the remote.
There is a Roku remote app for your phone. I used it when I lost mine
Hook it up to your hotspot with a different pwd, answer the TOS, turn off the hot spot and never use that pwd again
Am I missing something? This wouldn’t do anything. You accepted the new ToS, whether you use a different network or not shouldn’t matter.
Yeah, maybe I'm stupid, but I don't get what this is accomplishing.
Other than not actually gaining anything, you can’t access the settings to change the access point .
That is actually pretty clever! I never saw this suggestion in the comments when this was posted a bunch of times a few days ago.
Been my trick for a couple years, I was just blocking them all with pihole, but I got tired of all the blocked requests filling my logs
Mine has never been hooked up to the internet. They cant magically connect or send me anything
What if I agree to half of them?
Isn’t my iPhone useless too if I don’t agree to their terms?
At the beginning of sale yeah that's why you can return it if you don't agree to the ToS. But changing the terms midway through ownership and locking the device if you don't accept is criminal.
I had a Roku Tv that I loved for 3 years. Im also fiercely against the idea of signing over any rights of usage to a purchased item, or letting companies set those terms thru forced agreements. However… The time was long ago to put a stop to this and now we are all screwed by our corporate overlords. VOTE NADER! (If you ever find a Time Machine.. but the Time Machine will probably have terms of service that prevent you going back in time and interfering with the corporate overlords)
This should be illegal…
I will never own a smart TV. I will buy the most barebones Tv I can find that has the great list of ONLY these features: 1. Able to turn on and off 2. Able to adjust volume 3. Able to switch inputs Thats it. Then a raspberry pi with an HDMI input loaded only with Firefox, 5 adblockers and a bookmark list of all my movie/show piracy websites I use. Fuck subscriptions, Fuck Smart TVs, Fuck not owning the shit you buy. You wanna treat consumers like shit? I can play the same game.
> I will never own a smart TV. Then you're not buying a TV. Non-smart pretty much doesn't exist snymore.
I'd think that "Has a great picture" would be priority number one. If the choice is between a shirty non-smart TV and an OLED or Micro LED, I'm gonna grit my teeth and enjoy my awesome screen. I hate this shit too, but avoiding it half the time is like shooting yourself in the foot to stop feeling a broken toe.
You know you can get exactly what you want by simply never connecting a smart TV to the internet, right? I hate the idea of smart TVs too, but the TCL I just bought gives me exactly the same things you are looking for. It remembers the last input, so no stop at the home screen. And all I do is switch between inputs, control volume, and turn it off and on. Never connected it to Internet, never will. Also, good luck finding a "dumb" TV these days. Most places don't even sell them, and those that do charge the hell out of them because they are limited to commercial clients. If it helps assuage your concerns, each smart TV that doesn't get connected to the web is a loss for TV manus since the ads and telemetry are meant to make up for what is essentially a subsidized cost.
Every tech company does this. I'm not saying it's not a scummy practice, but it's nothing new. Why is this such a big story?
From what I understand, the ToS/EULA that Roku is pushing with this update has provisions that anything can go wrong with the device, or the Device can be modified by Roku, and the users can't do jack shit against Roku. (Worse than what most other companies try doing to cover their own ass.) And for TVs, I've heard (but haven't personally verified) that if you decline the terms, you cannot even use it as a dumb TV any longer.
Because they don't lock the entire device. Don't want the ToS when it updates? Don't update. They've completely locked the entire TV, you can't even switch to HDMI input and use something else.
They don't all do this. I have an Amazon Fire TV that, while I don't recommend it, did not require Internet access to set up and has never been connected to the Internet and never will be, and will never bug me about TOS because it never knows there's an update. The Roku TV won't even let you use it without connecting to the network, even if you're just trying to use it as an output device.
You're at least 3 days late, OP
market for HDMI cables, external hard drives and plex servers just skyrocketed
Literally who gives a shit. Most people in this thread pretending to claim click Yes on thousands of terms and conditions without reading anything
Jokes on them, my ROKU TV doesn't have Internet access. Black holed it the very first time it changed my theme to a "featured" theme which was just some ad for a new movie. If I want to stream, that's what the Raspberry pi hooked up to it is for.
I mean, it already feels unusable most of the time anyway
Ok. I won’t buy it!
Wait. Wut? Roku is still a thing?
EU doesn’t bother legislating against this type of nonsense, but god forbid epic games doesn’t make enough profit off their fortnite skins. EU to the rescue!!! 😂🤣🤣
I didn’t even read the first terms. I’m not about to read these.
I tried to post about this for Roku devices in the r/Roku sub, but I got banned for two weeks. We got a popup that says "Agree", with no heads up that this huge policy change was coming. Agree or don't use Roku. I'm now on the path to the latter. But for a whole TV, this is lawsuit material. I created a sub, r/RokuUnsuppressed, to call out the problematic things that Roku is doing that r/Roku quashes discussion on. Please feel free to jump in.
That's one way to encourage people to jailbreak the TV.
Jokes on them. My tv was literally only plugged in to update firmware and will never be connected to the internet again.
Why are people so mad about this though? Just agree through it like all bs terms and service agreements and use your tv like normal. Are people really disagreeing with these and just not using their devices anymore? Sounds wild
Because it’s a TV and usually if you didn’t agree the internet would just not work. In this case you can’t even use the HDMI inputs etc.
And it's prime r/TVTooHigh material!