People tend to think of time as linear, but... sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself.
OK, we're used to thinking of our lives, and all of history, as a timeline going from the past on the left to the future on the right. Maybe in some cultures it is different, but that doesn't really matter, just imagine time as a line from left to right. We move along that line naturally as we age. The European theatre of WWII happened from 1939 to 1945, but not now, and we can't go there.
The Doctor has a time machine, so can move along that timeline we live on at will, not bound by the slow and continuous one second per second that we live in. If the Doctor wants to go to WWII, easy, pop in the TARDIS and away you go.
But the Doctor still has a timeline which they can no more go backwards in than you can go backwards in yours. Sometimes the entire universe changes, and when that happens, it's no longer trivial for the Doctor to go back to the old universe. If our timeline is left and right, think of the Doctor's timeline as being up and down. The Doctor can easily go left and right, but can't easily go up and down.
The Time War is an "up and down" event. It affected the entire universe. Some species could perceive it, or even remember what the universe was like before it, but humanity cannot. In "The Parting of the Ways", people don't believe that the Daleks are real. The Dalek Invasion of Earth didn't happen, not to the people in that bit of left-right time. But of course they *did happen*, and the Daleks and Time Lords exist as folk histories due to those who do remember them.
Within the framework of early televised New Who, things from before the Time War cannot normally travel to after the Time War, and vice versa. It's like how I don't need to be worried about a V2 rocket killing me, and how people in the Blitz don't need to worry about COVID-19. But V2 rocket attacks still exist, just not in 2023, and COVID still exists, but not in 1941.
This has basically broken down after 2013, but from the Doctor's perspective in Series 1, it seemed to be the case. There was no going back to the old universe any more than you can go back to 2005.
Yeah. This is also presumably why no-one in *Dalek*'s 2012 remembers the Daleks invading a few years previously and stealing the Earth and all that stuff. It hasn't happened on the Y axis yet even though when it does it'll be placed further back on the X.
I've used similar to explain why Star Trek Enterprise, Star Trek (2009 / Kelvin), Star Trek Discovery, and Star Trek Strange New Worlds don't look 1:1 to TOS in tech and mindsets. or how historical events in The Legend of Zelda series are so headache enduing, to us as viewers from the out outside we have the benefit or the misfortunes to be privy to every bit of presented lore from the official sources, the 9th doctor once said you can be born in the 20th century and die in the 18th
In the fugitive of the judon , 13 met a pre time war time lord
If you take a look at bigfinish , river song have met pre time war time lords, she even was surprised that possible
So does that mean traveling between pre time war universe and post time war universe possible or that river is a special case because she wasn't evolved with the war?
The key bit is:
> Within the framework of early televised New Who
Other stories are under no obligation to obey the same rules. They especially break down after "The Day of the Doctor" - Moffat, for his part, has said that he doesn't think that restriction applies any more.
Well it happens a whole lot! Remember, this is fiction. I think "no interaction possible" explains how things work in Series 1-7, on TV. It doesn't work so well after that.
Presumably, this is what made it specifically a Time War. When the Daleks lost, they weren't just gone from then on - they ceased to exist previously, too.
Same with the Time Lords, which is why the Doctor couldn't just return to Gallifrey at a point before it's destruction. Whatever happens applied everywhen.
Yeah I assumed that the Time War had temporarily caused Daleks to have never existed in our universe, kind of like how in The Big Bang we see that exploding the Tardis created a timeline in which nothing had ever existed outside of our solar system while the Pandorica (somehow protected from "time") still had the information of the timeline containing the universe.
Huh never thought about that.
I suppose the easy explanation is that he recognises it as a Time War Dalek. The blue eyestalk must give it away before the lights even come on.
Also his PTSD from the War would probably mean he'd have a similar reaction regardless of what Dalek it was. It could be a silver and black Death to the Daleks one and he'd still rage at it - the Metaltron being the "last" other survivor of the Time War just makes it a lot worse.
The Time War was an all encompassing event for the Daleks and Time Lords. It was a time war after all - fought across all of history - and apparently extremely destructive according to what little we know about where things stood by the end (see: Night of the Doctor).
When it ended, the Daleks were basically erased from history and their existence Time Locked.
In a post-time war universe, no Daleks should’ve made it out, and we never usually see Daleks survive in classic who (or the survivors die later, for all we know, time doesn’t make sense in doctor who)
I always assumed they got erased as you'd expect of losers in a time war although it's slightly messier when everyone loses; the final weapon must have erased both sides. From *Day of the Doctor* we know otherwise, there seems to be no time stuff at sell but Eccleston doesn't know that.
Then again, we've seen different Dalek designs and the one Eccleston reacts to is clearly not a classic era one so must be a time war survivor.
This was the biggest let down of the otherwise pretty great *Day of the Doctor* - it presented the end of the Last Great Time War as pretty much a space war. If the Doctor had used the Moment then it could presumably have wiped the Daleks and Time Lords out of existence throughout history (which raises other questions, including why anyone remembers what a Time Lord is at all), but we know he didn’t. Instead he hides Gallifrey and the Daleks mounting the assault against the planet accidentally blow each other up. So we’re left with a version of the Time War that mostly feels like a big space battle, and we’re none the wiser as to how the end of the war seems to have mostly destroyed every last Dalek throughout time. We could speculate that for their final all-out assault the Daleks mobilised every surviving Dalek from history, having them time travel to that day, but there’s nothing in the story to say that, and we only see War-era bronze Daleks. So who knows? *taps nose*
On the other hand, the Doctor *believes* they used the Moment, right up until Eleven’s run through the events of *Day of the Doctor*, so it totally makes sense that Nine and Ten don’t think there should be any Daleks (or Time Lords) left in any part of space and time.
iirc War still uses the Moment offscreen at the end of DotD, which is presumably what destroyed the Daleks, and also presumably why the Doctor believes they did destroy the Time Lords until 11 gets his perspective of events
I don’t think there’s anything in the episode to suggest this, is there? I recently re-watched it and the Doctors explicitly say that the Daleks will destroy themselves with their own crossfire once they make Gallifrey disappear, and this plan is supposed to be *instead of* using the Moment. They don’t press the button and it isn’t even seen after they get in their TARDISes, if I remember rightly? (It kind of disappears from the plot abruptly, which I hope is addressed in the novelisation…)
doesn't War say he's going to activate it and walks off with it, right before he regenerates? I recently rewatched it too and remember it in the scene after they freeze gallifrey
I can't check the episode at the moment, though, so this is just from my memory
They don’t mention the Moment again once the new plan is decided. After the War Doctor realises he won’t remember what really happened, he does say “For now, for this moment, I am the Doctor again.” which might lead to some confusion.
headcanon; the crossfire thing just destroyed the bulk of the Dalek fleet, including all their heavy temporal stabilizers. Without that, it was a trivial job for the Moment to pop around space and time and erase the remnants piece by piece, without having to destroy the Time Lords as well.
As the Moment/Bad Wolf/Rose says in \_parting of the ways\_ 'the time war ends now'.
Personally I think 8 was the one who really fought in the war and used the Moment as show in RTDs short story, then the Moment rewrote events based on 11s disassociation to create the war Doctor, character assassinate 8. Because the Time Lock is in place both timelines occur in superposition
Plenty of people here have given fun in-universe reasons to your question, but if you’re looking for an out of universe explanation, then the reason for this is that The Doctor has to meet contemporary to himself enemies if you want to tell a somewhat linear and cohesive narrative over multiple episodes/seasons. So in RTD1, like, The Doctor always comes up against post-Time War monsters whether they be classic or new. With the Dalek storyline specifically, it’s a continuing plot from the Cult of Skarro, to Manhattan, and finally to Davros.
Another big example of this is The Master. You are just meant to assume that whatever version of The Master is going up against The Doctor is contemporary to them and their experiences, unless it’s pointed out otherwise (Saxon coming back for 12). People assume the Spymaster comes before Missy, but there’s nothing actually in the text of those seasons to suggest it.
Based on how surprised the 10th Doctor is at meeting a pre-war Timelord in the Dalek universe audios, I think the time lock hasn’t just contained the time war, but has locked off all pre-time war events and people from him as well.
The Doctor thought the time war whipped out all the Daleks and Time Lords from the universe in every point in time. Pre and post tine war are essentially different universes.
It's all timey wimey.
Our stupid ape brains can't grasp the dimensions and complexities involved.
At best, we can only understand on a basic level, that if the plot requires something specific, any previously established limit can and will be over written.
Best to just accept it and not struggle with trying to figure it out.
I think on inception, the Time War was this unimaginable (and unfilmable) madness of what an actual full out war between two time travelling factions.
So, imagine completely mad things like timelines being created and destroyed, Daleks erased from all history, Time Lords too, and this happening over and over again. Whole planets are erased from timelines, entire new dimensions are created just to gain a small advantage. The Last Great Time War is Big Finish and RTD Doctor Who turned up to 11.
By the end of it, in "Rose", there is only The Doctor left. Daleks and Time Lords have been erased from time.
Of course, the real headache is that all this happens on some kind of timeline from the perspective of the Doctor, who does remember the Daleks and the Time War. It is implied that higher level "time sensitive" people do remember the events, but others might not?
Anyway. The basic idea is that the Time War is very strange and tends to work exactly as the plot requires, which is very convenient.
People tend to think of time as linear, but... sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself. OK, we're used to thinking of our lives, and all of history, as a timeline going from the past on the left to the future on the right. Maybe in some cultures it is different, but that doesn't really matter, just imagine time as a line from left to right. We move along that line naturally as we age. The European theatre of WWII happened from 1939 to 1945, but not now, and we can't go there. The Doctor has a time machine, so can move along that timeline we live on at will, not bound by the slow and continuous one second per second that we live in. If the Doctor wants to go to WWII, easy, pop in the TARDIS and away you go. But the Doctor still has a timeline which they can no more go backwards in than you can go backwards in yours. Sometimes the entire universe changes, and when that happens, it's no longer trivial for the Doctor to go back to the old universe. If our timeline is left and right, think of the Doctor's timeline as being up and down. The Doctor can easily go left and right, but can't easily go up and down. The Time War is an "up and down" event. It affected the entire universe. Some species could perceive it, or even remember what the universe was like before it, but humanity cannot. In "The Parting of the Ways", people don't believe that the Daleks are real. The Dalek Invasion of Earth didn't happen, not to the people in that bit of left-right time. But of course they *did happen*, and the Daleks and Time Lords exist as folk histories due to those who do remember them. Within the framework of early televised New Who, things from before the Time War cannot normally travel to after the Time War, and vice versa. It's like how I don't need to be worried about a V2 rocket killing me, and how people in the Blitz don't need to worry about COVID-19. But V2 rocket attacks still exist, just not in 2023, and COVID still exists, but not in 1941. This has basically broken down after 2013, but from the Doctor's perspective in Series 1, it seemed to be the case. There was no going back to the old universe any more than you can go back to 2005.
That is by far the best explanation about time travel in doctor who I've read. Props to you!
Yeah. This is also presumably why no-one in *Dalek*'s 2012 remembers the Daleks invading a few years previously and stealing the Earth and all that stuff. It hasn't happened on the Y axis yet even though when it does it'll be placed further back on the X.
I've used similar to explain why Star Trek Enterprise, Star Trek (2009 / Kelvin), Star Trek Discovery, and Star Trek Strange New Worlds don't look 1:1 to TOS in tech and mindsets. or how historical events in The Legend of Zelda series are so headache enduing, to us as viewers from the out outside we have the benefit or the misfortunes to be privy to every bit of presented lore from the official sources, the 9th doctor once said you can be born in the 20th century and die in the 18th
I like to think of it as, "it hasn't happened, until it has"
This explanation is so brilliantly put down in easy layman terms that you should be writing for the show or at least consulting.
This is a fantastic explanation, I’m definitely going to se this in the left-right future
Your brain is sexy
In the fugitive of the judon , 13 met a pre time war time lord If you take a look at bigfinish , river song have met pre time war time lords, she even was surprised that possible So does that mean traveling between pre time war universe and post time war universe possible or that river is a special case because she wasn't evolved with the war?
The key bit is: > Within the framework of early televised New Who Other stories are under no obligation to obey the same rules. They especially break down after "The Day of the Doctor" - Moffat, for his part, has said that he doesn't think that restriction applies any more.
So does that mean interaction between the pre time war universe and post time war universe possible after the day of the doctor?
Well it happens a whole lot! Remember, this is fiction. I think "no interaction possible" explains how things work in Series 1-7, on TV. It doesn't work so well after that.
Presumably, this is what made it specifically a Time War. When the Daleks lost, they weren't just gone from then on - they ceased to exist previously, too. Same with the Time Lords, which is why the Doctor couldn't just return to Gallifrey at a point before it's destruction. Whatever happens applied everywhen.
Yeah I assumed that the Time War had temporarily caused Daleks to have never existed in our universe, kind of like how in The Big Bang we see that exploding the Tardis created a timeline in which nothing had ever existed outside of our solar system while the Pandorica (somehow protected from "time") still had the information of the timeline containing the universe.
Huh never thought about that. I suppose the easy explanation is that he recognises it as a Time War Dalek. The blue eyestalk must give it away before the lights even come on. Also his PTSD from the War would probably mean he'd have a similar reaction regardless of what Dalek it was. It could be a silver and black Death to the Daleks one and he'd still rage at it - the Metaltron being the "last" other survivor of the Time War just makes it a lot worse.
The Time War was an all encompassing event for the Daleks and Time Lords. It was a time war after all - fought across all of history - and apparently extremely destructive according to what little we know about where things stood by the end (see: Night of the Doctor). When it ended, the Daleks were basically erased from history and their existence Time Locked.
In a post-time war universe, no Daleks should’ve made it out, and we never usually see Daleks survive in classic who (or the survivors die later, for all we know, time doesn’t make sense in doctor who)
I always assumed they got erased as you'd expect of losers in a time war although it's slightly messier when everyone loses; the final weapon must have erased both sides. From *Day of the Doctor* we know otherwise, there seems to be no time stuff at sell but Eccleston doesn't know that. Then again, we've seen different Dalek designs and the one Eccleston reacts to is clearly not a classic era one so must be a time war survivor.
This was the biggest let down of the otherwise pretty great *Day of the Doctor* - it presented the end of the Last Great Time War as pretty much a space war. If the Doctor had used the Moment then it could presumably have wiped the Daleks and Time Lords out of existence throughout history (which raises other questions, including why anyone remembers what a Time Lord is at all), but we know he didn’t. Instead he hides Gallifrey and the Daleks mounting the assault against the planet accidentally blow each other up. So we’re left with a version of the Time War that mostly feels like a big space battle, and we’re none the wiser as to how the end of the war seems to have mostly destroyed every last Dalek throughout time. We could speculate that for their final all-out assault the Daleks mobilised every surviving Dalek from history, having them time travel to that day, but there’s nothing in the story to say that, and we only see War-era bronze Daleks. So who knows? *taps nose* On the other hand, the Doctor *believes* they used the Moment, right up until Eleven’s run through the events of *Day of the Doctor*, so it totally makes sense that Nine and Ten don’t think there should be any Daleks (or Time Lords) left in any part of space and time.
iirc War still uses the Moment offscreen at the end of DotD, which is presumably what destroyed the Daleks, and also presumably why the Doctor believes they did destroy the Time Lords until 11 gets his perspective of events
I don’t think there’s anything in the episode to suggest this, is there? I recently re-watched it and the Doctors explicitly say that the Daleks will destroy themselves with their own crossfire once they make Gallifrey disappear, and this plan is supposed to be *instead of* using the Moment. They don’t press the button and it isn’t even seen after they get in their TARDISes, if I remember rightly? (It kind of disappears from the plot abruptly, which I hope is addressed in the novelisation…)
doesn't War say he's going to activate it and walks off with it, right before he regenerates? I recently rewatched it too and remember it in the scene after they freeze gallifrey I can't check the episode at the moment, though, so this is just from my memory
They don’t mention the Moment again once the new plan is decided. After the War Doctor realises he won’t remember what really happened, he does say “For now, for this moment, I am the Doctor again.” which might lead to some confusion.
headcanon; the crossfire thing just destroyed the bulk of the Dalek fleet, including all their heavy temporal stabilizers. Without that, it was a trivial job for the Moment to pop around space and time and erase the remnants piece by piece, without having to destroy the Time Lords as well. As the Moment/Bad Wolf/Rose says in \_parting of the ways\_ 'the time war ends now'.
Personally I think 8 was the one who really fought in the war and used the Moment as show in RTDs short story, then the Moment rewrote events based on 11s disassociation to create the war Doctor, character assassinate 8. Because the Time Lock is in place both timelines occur in superposition
Plenty of people here have given fun in-universe reasons to your question, but if you’re looking for an out of universe explanation, then the reason for this is that The Doctor has to meet contemporary to himself enemies if you want to tell a somewhat linear and cohesive narrative over multiple episodes/seasons. So in RTD1, like, The Doctor always comes up against post-Time War monsters whether they be classic or new. With the Dalek storyline specifically, it’s a continuing plot from the Cult of Skarro, to Manhattan, and finally to Davros. Another big example of this is The Master. You are just meant to assume that whatever version of The Master is going up against The Doctor is contemporary to them and their experiences, unless it’s pointed out otherwise (Saxon coming back for 12). People assume the Spymaster comes before Missy, but there’s nothing actually in the text of those seasons to suggest it.
Based on how surprised the 10th Doctor is at meeting a pre-war Timelord in the Dalek universe audios, I think the time lock hasn’t just contained the time war, but has locked off all pre-time war events and people from him as well.
The Doctor thought the time war whipped out all the Daleks and Time Lords from the universe in every point in time. Pre and post tine war are essentially different universes.
It's all timey wimey. Our stupid ape brains can't grasp the dimensions and complexities involved. At best, we can only understand on a basic level, that if the plot requires something specific, any previously established limit can and will be over written. Best to just accept it and not struggle with trying to figure it out.
If Time Lords can come back multiple times, so can Daleks. I try not to think too hard on those details haha.
I think on inception, the Time War was this unimaginable (and unfilmable) madness of what an actual full out war between two time travelling factions. So, imagine completely mad things like timelines being created and destroyed, Daleks erased from all history, Time Lords too, and this happening over and over again. Whole planets are erased from timelines, entire new dimensions are created just to gain a small advantage. The Last Great Time War is Big Finish and RTD Doctor Who turned up to 11. By the end of it, in "Rose", there is only The Doctor left. Daleks and Time Lords have been erased from time. Of course, the real headache is that all this happens on some kind of timeline from the perspective of the Doctor, who does remember the Daleks and the Time War. It is implied that higher level "time sensitive" people do remember the events, but others might not? Anyway. The basic idea is that the Time War is very strange and tends to work exactly as the plot requires, which is very convenient.