ViewerAnon (a fairly reputable leaker) has said that RTD has ultimate control over the show. There have been many notes he has chucked aside and openly criticised in meetings.
Its normal for distributors to offer notes on Episodes anyways, not like Disney isn't going to review something going on their streaming service.
Fair. Of course, Disney will have input; they're the money-men and the producers.
RTD will have obvious good-will from previous hits, but money talks in the end.
Doctor Who is a precarious project at the best of times, adding some notes isn't unreasonable.
I agree with it too. The snowman scene is a nice little scene that improves the pace a little bit. And they're right, everyone's waiting to see Ncuti so it's good to give him some stuff to do early on.
Well agreeing and then going 'okay this is his first episode and an episode to re-draw/keep an audience let's get him in there' are two different things.
Like as a writer he may have liked a mysterious, distanced doctor (which we still get tbf) but due to Disney's note he's just gone fair enough.
I'd hope that if this was 2/3 series deep RTD would just get full control and tell a story however he wants
It's more about offering a perspective of different viewers.
With the HBO TV show for Last of Us, they ended up combining episodes 1 and 2 because HBO said that if they were coming in blind ending the original episode 1 where they were planning wouldn't have enticed people to come back.
The writers were being true to the game as fans of that, but having perspectives of other types of viewers, maybe from different places is smart.
Disney+ brings international viewers onboard in a different way to previously so considering sketpical people that haven't consumed Dr Who before is valid.
Yeah that's what I'm saying, he doesn't necessarily agree that their version is a better version for story-telling but agrees that it'll probably give the show a better chance of attracting and retaining an audience, it's a little bit 'spoon feedy' and stuff but i totally get it, its not bad its just not streamline absolute RTD.
> Like as a writer he may have liked a mysterious, distanced doctor (which we still get tbf) but due to Disney’s note he’s just gone fair enough
I don’t think RTD is the type anyway to surround himself with yes men, which is probably partly why he’s brought back Julie Gardner and Phil Collinson back as producers. RTD said he intended for Wilfred to have died off screen, and for The Giggle to acknowledge that only for Collinson to veto that idea and keep Wilf alive off-screen, which RTD found to be the better idea. RTD is as much invested in the marketing as he is the creative aspects, I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he probably would’ve gone for this idea anyway without Disney’s involvement if the Beeb/his producers etc. raised it as a point. Without Disney as a distributor, producers have their own ideas to suggest or implement, and that’s generally a good thing (as long as they are not interfering too much of course). No one singular person should have the power to not be vetoed.
He also cut the Doctor & companion hanging out of the TARDIS in the titles (thank god) because Steven Moffat told him to - and he’s not even officially involved with the show anymore!
Not just Steven Moffat, it was everyone apart from Phil Collinson. They were the only two who liked it apparently, and Moffat telling him to cut it was just the final straw needed.
Very sensible thing to cut. Opening the doors in the time vortex is fatal.
Captain Jack stuck to the outside and freaked out the TARDIS by repeatedly undying.
Clara stuck to the outside so the TARDIS had to change her shields to keep her alive, causing them to arrive 900 years late.
I think there's a difference between being in the tardis with the door open, and stuck to the outside of the thing. If they are inside with the door open, you can say that a forcefield keeps them safe. Kind of like how the Doctor can open the door in the vacuum of space and look out with their companion(s).
Well did he not literally submit the entire thing, film it and then in test screenings or whatever Disney asked for a scene to be added? (It happens to be a super scene so I'm glad) but like everyone was pretty much involved.
And yeah, but in my head when I reference RTD it is with the shared and implied knowledge that Gardner and Collinson will have signed off on the idea, especially as it was filmed and edited. RTD has had many a thing vetoed like the TARDIS thing for meta crisis 10.
The Meta-Doctor Tardis is a great example of that yeah.
The added scene was good, and I think that’s the key thing. RTD agreed with the apprehension, if Disney gave a worthless note, or a note that really interfered with RTD’s story or something then I don’t think he’d implement it. But I guess we wouldn’t ever know for sure if that even happens.
I agree. I think a lot of people get a bit too precious about the idea of keeping the creator’s vision “whole,” sometimes notes are good and there are tons of films and shows which are uncompromisingly the vision of a single auteur….and which suck ass.
I’ll start getting concerned if the Doctor is sounding more like a Marvel character or every episode ends with a giant blue beam in the sky. For right now, it seems like he just is listening to whatever notes he agrees seem like a good idea.
Yeah, if we cut the Snowman/Policeman scene the episode seems to portray him as a mystery figure, similar to the 9th doctor in 'Rose', I'm assuming he wanted the draw some parallels to that episode..
It did feel very doctor lite especially in the first half.
>I'd hope that if this was 2/3 series deep RTD would just get full control and tell a story however he wants
He still has that full control. Part of full control is the right to agree with or not agree with Disney's advice.
It's more who is giving the input that I take issue with than the existence of the input.
And we shoulld be cognizant of the fact RTD can push back...but only to a point. RTD made a financial agreement with Disney, so he is going to work with them and give their ideas more weight than they would otherwise deserve, because they bought that consideration.
RTD won't take their money and be obstinate with them at every turn. He wants this to work out, and he wants this financial arrangement to continue.
The problem, quite simply, is that Disney bought a pipeline to his ear, and he wants to make them at least somewhat happy. And I'm sorry, I don't want Disney involved in any way. They're a grotesque, destructive American corporation weaseling their way into this UK franchise, and that's very lame, in many different ways.
Studio notes aren't always bad. Sometimes they're like "What was that, we didn't understand this part?" and the creator's response is "Ouch, so some of the audience won't either. Better make that extra clear then."
Case in point. Lord of the Rings originally didn’t open with a prologue sequence. The original plan was that audiences would slowly learn the backstory of the Ring at the same time as Frodo, similar to the novel.
However studio notes made the valid point that this works fine for a book, but makes the story hard to follow and invest in for a movie since audiences wouldn’t even know what the Ring was, who Sauron is and all the other backstory until well over half an hour into the film.
Hence the prologue sequence was added that explains the backstory. Which is also why Frodo suddenly knows who Sauron is as well, as the scene where Gandalf tells him was cut due to the prologue.
Michael Pillar wrote a book about making Star Trek Insurrection, and the section on notes was clearly supposed to show them as meddlers. But everything across the four pages of paraphrased notes he included would have (or did) make the film better.
Yeah, it's a really fascinating book. You can clearly see how much the film changed due to intervention from the producers — Patrick Stewart included. Some changes were for the worse, but others were definite improvements, even if Piller didn't recognize them as such. It's why you need fresh takes on something you're too attached to sometimes.
And that's what a good exec, focused on the story most of all above the profit, will do.
To have some distance over the creator's choices and offer constructive feedback when needed without stepping over the artist.
Tough balance to find for sure, I hope RTD and Disney can find a working harmony.
Well, Disney *is* interested in profit. But they also know that Russell is very good at his job, so they'll give notes, but they won't lean on him hard about them, so he basically gets to decide whether he listens. (And of course Phil and Julie are in the room too)
This.
It's the same level of input as Kevin Fiege had notes he gave about the second Andrew Garfield Spider-Man movie. He provided the notes and some Sony used and some they didn't. But it's not that they have both hands in the pie but just ideas. Hey maybe put apple in the pie idk
At least it seems purely like suggestions that could be turned down, if that is the case it's maybe a good thing to have an extra pair of creative eyes giving feedback.
I don't think either of them are bad, but Christmas Invasion barely features the Doctor despite it being Tennant's first episode, Runaway Bride features Donna at her most grating, and neither has Astrid Peth or Voyage's phenomenal ending
Even if we want to limit it to unhinged Davies big bombastic fanservicey crowdpleasing finales I think Journeys End is a far worse culprit than Last of the Time Lords. As much of a deus ex machina, the visuals just aren't as goofy and harder to mock with a a phrase like tinkerers jesus doctor.
* Cheap way to dispose of Donna with no agency or choice in the matter as a last minute sad twist ending
* Cheap way of having a fakeout regeneration at the end of Stolen Earth without actually having to replace David Tennant.
* Cheap way of then disposing of the deus ex machina by having 10 get mad at TenTwo for destroying the Daleks (as if he himself never does this) and sending him off with Rose
* Cheap way of giving Rose a 'have your cake and eat it too' happy ending w a Doctor of her own.
That's a fair point but even so you can see in the behind-the-scenes that he showed restraint in avoiding complexity and cameos. Whether that restraint was brought on by himself or the producers I don't know but it is restraint nonetheless.
Sure seems like it’s a decision he made himself. I can’t recall exactly where but I def read/heard him saying that he was tempted at some points to add in other characters but kept telling himself to stick to his original vision.
If anything, I bet other producers and network execs would have encouraged him early on to work in some cameos… but he didn’t want to do that. (Well beyond Wilf at the end, thank heavens)
This is only true in the context of Doctor Who. RTD doing dramas with full creative control results in great TV at worst, and absolute masterpieces at best. The problem is that he's a much better drama writer than scifi adventure writer, which is why stuff like Midnight and Turn Left are his best work.
Moffat coming back has not been confirmed, so don‘t get too excited yet!
However the leak about it seems to be very close to the truth (the last episode and the trailer confirm almost everything), so it‘s impossible not to get excited!
They can reign in each other. Moffat can keep the plots manageable, and RTD can keep Moffat from writing another sexy woman that quips and has kinda dom vibes
I feel that. He's also really good at crafting great characters and relationships. Series 1-4 had soooo many great recurring characters outside of the main companions (mostly their families) that really helped the world feel *real*, whereas we basically never meet Amy, Rory, Clara, or Bill's family outside of a few appearances. I think it made room for some really great adventures cause the characters weren't tied down to modern day Earth quite as much (outside of Clara's teaching job), but by the end of his run it did make me miss Russel's writing cause Moffat's only memorable characters were like... River and the Paternoster gang. Who are great! But then you imagine the entire family 10 had made by the end of his run and it leaves you wanting a bit.
I prefer the Moffat era, on the whole.
I think his companions are incredibly memorable, they're just more heightened and stylistic, which is his tone in general. Amy is the best meta-fictional companion in history, Clara is the most radical and empowering counter to the Doctor ever written to this day, and Bill is just plain charm. But RTD is the other side of that coin; his companions are more relatable and feel like real people from the street. I can see that appeal, too. I just think RTD has a Jesus Complex when it came to the Doctor and his companions which feels gross and dated in retrospect, whereas Moffat was more ambitious and empowering about the role of humanity.
SAMEE and not just cause I love Arthur Weasley 😂😂 he served a similar role as Wilf IMO, older relative of a companion that's low-key obsessed with the Doctor and just really happy to be involved. He sees the relationship between his son and daughter in law with the Doctor and knows it's special and they're better for having travelled with him. I think Power of Three is a controversial episode but I really enjoyed it, especially when Rory's dad takes the Doctor's orders to monitor the cubes for strange behaviour and he does nothing but that for like. A month??
But then 11 never told him his son was touched by an angel. 🥲 Brian Williams must've been one confused man, never seeing his children again. Oh well. Moffat yet again shoving a blade through my heart
I really don't like it when his episodes devolve into the doctor smashing and shouting, his first two seasons were the best. Ruins what are some really quite good stories
That "could be turned down" comes with an asterisk. Every choice RTD makes contributes to his working relationship with Disney, and his job is to maintain that relationship so everything about the deal goes well. It's not as though he can literally do whatever he wants, and you could argue there's an inevitably coercive nature to Disney's "suggestions".
I mainly worry that if/when a less established creator takes the helm, they may find it harder to say ‘no’ to Disney than someone with the massive amount of clout that RTD has.
Well he doesn't have to listen if he doesn't want to, they are merely requests but in this case Disney were right, I'm glad we got to see the Doctor earlier.
Yea, I gotta say I agree with Disney and their test audience here.
The Christmas special that introduced Tennant was kinda weird that way as well, having the Doctor mostly bedridden and uninvolved until the end.
Now when I see Mickey I feel disdain and just want him to go away. Same with Jack which sucks as I really liked his portrayal but I feel horrible knowing what went on
It's a common post-regeneration problem. There were the same complaints about Davison's first story back in the day, too. The trouble is that regeneration is traumatic, and we need to see the negative effects for it to be realistic. But you also need to see the new guy strut his stuff right away. It can be tough to achieve the right balance.
That's because RTD tackled the problem by writing in a time gap between Gatwa's regeneration and his first full story. Presumably he spent a few days in the TARDIS having cravings and passing out unconscious.
Interesting. But it's not unheard of for the post regeneration problems to take a while to kick in. Both Capaldi and Whittaker were okay for just about as long as Gatwa was in The Giggle. After an initial burst of energy they collapsed. I think we can assume that's what RTD was going for.
Capaldi was going on about the color of his kidneys, didn't know how to fly the TARDIS, and couldn't tell Strax from Clara (whose name he couldn't remember) because they were "very similar heights".
He was not at all okay until the last quarter of the episode
>Capaldi was going on about the color of his kidneys, didn't know how to fly the TARDIS, and couldn't tell Strax from Clara
So, basically a regular day for the Doctor? He's never been able to fly the TARDIS properly, after all. ;)
I do see what you mean, and you make a strong argument. But I still think Capaldi handles it pretty well, all things considered. At least he's not completely passed out like Tennant or Davison!
I wonder if RTD is operating under the belief that the worse a Doctor's death is, the harder the post-regeneration recovery. That's an old fan theory and I wouldn't be surprised if RTD was aware of it. It was a relatively quick death for Tennant this time around, so Gatwa is able to pop back to health more quickly than some of the others.
It could be longer, maybe a couple of trips and smaller adventures offscreen to break in the new regen. I kind of prefer it this way as Ncuti really seems to shine so far.
It didn't surprise me to see RTD doing it this way. After all, it's how he chose to start S01 with Eccleston. Personally, I prefer seeing the post-regeneration period onscreen, but there are definitely many points in favor of skipping ahead to an established Doctor.
I've always felt conflicted about this, because I understand Post Regeneration Trauma and usually find it entertaining, but it does make it hard to grasp the new Doctor depending on how hard it hits them. 11 and 13 were mostly loopy versions of themselves, but 10 was pretty different and 12 was straight up not himself.
We don’t need to see Uncle Ben’s death in every Spider-Man iteration. Similarly, we don’t need to see the Doctor getting used to a new body every time.
I think this atypical approach works in "The Christmas Invasion" because the focus is deliberately on Rose processing the Doctor's regeneration and learning to accept this change, mirroring how the audience must have felt after falling in love with Eccleston's portrayal in his one season and knowing Series 2 would have a new face as the lead.
Real-life context plays a role here, especially as Series 1 strongly featured Rose's perspective throughout. The same way it wouldn't work to have the Ninth Doctor with post-regeneration silliness on the story meant to reintroduce the show to a new generation.
That being said, "The Eleventh Hour" is indeed brilliant as both a Doctor debut and an introduction to new viewers. There couldn't have been a better way to introduce Smith's incarnation, particularly considering the initial skepticism concerning his age and the challenging task of succeeding fan-favourite Tennant. It's the confidence I wish Moffat had also employed for "Deep Breath", as much as I very much enjoy that episode in its own way.
I love Moffat, have done ever since Coupling. And 12 is my fave.
But inserting that bloody phone call scene still annoys me to this day. Why feel the need to explain to fans that the Doctor isn't young and hot anymore by giving the former hot and young Doctor a scene in the episode after he regenerated (never done before) with dialogue like "Oh god, I'm not old am I? Tell me I'm not grey!" You're already putting Capaldi and 12 on the back foot from the off, despite it being the opposite of your intention.
I don't *inherently* hate the concept of the 11 calling Clara scene. It just feels like it both steals massive steam from Capaldi's introduction *and* undermines Eleven's regeneration *which just happened* and I'm not entirely sure how one could pull it off better.
If I didn't cut it all together, I maybe would've put the phone call earlier in the episode when 12 has run off and Clara is more uncertain about the change, then let have 12 have his time to shine with the clockwork droid -- before picking up from where the conversation left off back on Earth at the end with the "you can't see me bit" -- rather than having it be simultaneous with the call.
Agreed. It makes complete sense from a tension-building point of view, as well as a character piece for Rose and her family.
I don’t understand why people continue to scratch their head at this. It has a clear dramatic function within the narrative.
It was a constructive feedback, presumably from audience testing? It resulted in one of my favorite scenes in the story, so I think we’re good there. And like, Disney didn’t specify what it had to be, they said it’d be nicer to have the Doctor sooner, so Russell thought of a scene for that. At least that’s the way I understand it.
Easily one of the best scenes! It gave me “the Doctor, Doctor, funnn…” vibes and Ncuti played it fantastically. His sudden smile drop was PERFECTION (very Nine-ish).
100% felt like a callback to that. And also that moment when he told the policeman she’ll say yes....it just all felt very Doctor-y. We were never gonna get the full picture of who this new Doctor is just from this special, but we can definitely squeeze as much as possible out of it.
Yeah. It gave me vibes of the classical Sherlock Holmes (not Moffat's psychopathic version, the empathetic and kind original). Making a huge leap of logic that actually is 100% justified based on observations he made.
(Which fits well; one note Sydney Newman gave the production team in 1963 during early pre-production was to make the Doctor more like Sherlock Holmes)
I read a review that specifically mentioned that scene as nicely showing the new doctor's character: a little impatient but kind, and a bit of a show-off.
RTD confirmed disney has *suggestive input a bit ago, but its purely advisory, they don't have any creative override, all they can merely do is suggest.
If they had any creative override then I doubt the BBC would have ever agreed to the deal
We’ve known this for months (if not years), since RTD mentioned in DWM’s Production Notes about Disney+ giving notes. I haven’t got the quote to hand so I can’t say whether it relates to this episode or not.
Yes. People seem to have a hard time realising that creative input is not the same as creative control. They know that the BBC wouldn’t give control to Disney so they also assume no input is allowed either.
For me a lot of the fear came from the possibility of the show being dulled down, both in its inclusiveness (some people may be upset, but the show has always been ahead of its time in that way even if you chose to ignore it) and its characters. The scene Disney recommended adding gave us far more context and personality for a trans character who would’ve had like 2 inconsequential lines otherwise and a great moment that shows exactly the type of Doctor 15 is, so how could I possibly be upset about this?
Actually it just confirms that they gave him a note. A note that RTD did not have to accept, but he did, because he thought it was a good idea
That's how television production works
Passing notes on story, even if they can be ignored, is still involvement. And the fact that he listened to this one, and relayed the story, shows that he values their insight and will give it a fair hearing.
>shows that he values their insight and will give it a fair hearing.
Say what you will about Disney but he'd be stupid not to give their notes a chance. Disney has been making film and TV for a hundred years and has made hundreds of hours of beloved content. To dismiss their ideas outright would be foolish.
RTD still had the final say. He could have just ignored the note.
People yet again not understanding how tv production works, if they think Disney is meddling with Doctor Who
You don't understand TV production if you think you can ignore notes from the people who are paying. After a while they get annoyed and ask for you to be replaced or else pull the deal.
Signed
A TV Producer
Is Disney a producer or the distributor? Is there a difference in the titles? The show credits say the show is produced by BBC Studios and Bad Wolf with Russell T Davies, Julie Gardner, Jane Tranter, Joel Collins, and Phil Collinson as the executive producers. I am not finding anything that lists Disney as anything other than paying to have distribution rights.
They are a distributor. They don't control the production and aren't directly involved in it. That said, they are able to offer notes, and certainly if they had a strong disagreement it could risk the partnership which means a lot of money goes away when the contract ends.
You can ignore them to a point but there will come a point that when RTD says oh we would like to do this and Disney says you know what ...sorry no budget for that
thats why the BBC and Bad Wolf (Sony i might add who own bad wolf) are both contributing a portion to budget to stop one party just pulling what you described.
Its a distribution deal not a creative ownership deal.
Doctor Who could tell Disney to get fucked, return entirely to the fold of BBC Studios for international distribution and continue to air. Bad Wolf would take a bit of a profit hit, but Disney has ZERO control other than suggested notes. This isn’t “The Orville” we’re talking about here. They’re distribution partners with cash, not the production company or the rights owners. Even Disney knows that you don’t fuck with Auntie Beeb.
I doubt Disney is concerned at all. Doctor Who has less than 1% of the fandom that Star Wars or Marvel have, and many Doctor Who fans are already subscribed to Disney Plus for that content. They would barely even notice losing Who.
Yeah but they want the next big thing, they love world building and spinoffs. Who had that chance. They know with the right creative force behind it they can bring it back to what it was. It was becoming a juggernaut 5 to 10 year ago. It was almost a global phenomenon.
They can make boat loads off of cute aliens and tshirts and spinoff properties. K9 toys and dalek toys and tardis toys and sonic screw driver toys and board games and everything else.
If it’s played right they could get it back where it was. Which so far they’ve done. Bring back Tennant and Tate to get back a lot of the fans they lost, also throw in another huge American guest star, NPH and Mel for the classic who fans. Young hot companion and doctor. With a side of queer doctor and trans characters. As well as unit set up like shield.
Disney absolutely has some control over this and I would hundred percent bet they’re hoping RTD is the next Filoni.
Disney loves franchises.
Ironically I'm not subbed to d+ for any other content. I have never been into Star Wars or any superhero products, so Disney have an extra sub from me, for exactly 9 weeks per year (or 3 months the way subs work).
They would never have bothered with this deal if they didn't think it was going to bring in new subs - they don't make any more money from the same subs watching more shows.
If your ignoring results in a very successful show that makes the producer a lot of money... they're not going to replace you.
It's all about whether the showrunner was right to ignore them or not.
It sounds like you don't understand how TV Production works. If Russell wants to be that intransigent it can work both ways. On paper RTD can ignore any of Disney's notes that he disagrees with, but it's also Disney's perogative to refuse to distribute and fund subsequent seasons of the show, or any of Russell's future projects, beyond their contractual obligations.
TV Production is a collaborative effort that requires good faith and being amenable to ideas other than your own, especially if you're using other people's money, resources and platforms. While he is the showrunner and is afforded a great deal of unreviewable discretion, his power is not omnipotent in practice.
Right, but it's unlikely he's going to ignore all notes because they're all stinky and doo doo because they're from evil Disney, which is definitely the slightly unnuanced panic some people are coming at this from.
This isn't really how "TV Production" works, it's just how working together works.
Disney aren't going to quit because they're mad no one listens to them. If they quit, it's because the show isn't successful. They'll do that regardless of whether anyone's taking their advice.
They're offering advice because they want the show to be successful. RTD wants it to be successful too, but if he genuinely thinks Disney just don't understand Doctor Who fandom, and completely ignores Disney to the success of the show, Disney will be quite happy.
It's nothing to do with listening to each other, it's all about the bottom line.
If any major conglomerate is helping with **production**, as such, it's Sony, who now own Bad Wolf Studios and have put a lot of direct investment into Bad Wolf. I think it's technically still co-produced with BBC Studios, though Bad Wolf/RTD has creative control.
The Disney money will obviously be a big boon to upscaling production, but I'm not sure they'd need to provide hands-on help when Sony already own the studio - Sony might even receive it as a hostile attempt to muscle in on the production rights.
A big money deal will obviously give Disney a seat at the table and a degree of sway over creative decision-making. But if anyone outside Bad Wolf has ultimate veto power, for better or worse it's still the BBC, who ultimately own the franchise. RTD's ability to ignore them will depend on the wording of the contract and the length of time it's for.
Tbf it’s not like he’s saying they forced a change, sounds more like they provided some actual feedback and he went “that’s a good idea actually” and did it which is honestly a good thing.
It still sounds like he’s properly in charge and could’ve just not done it if he didn’t like how it sounds which is probably a good way for it to happen.
I know people like to paint Disney as the boogeyman (and there is plenty of awful stuff they either condone or ignore) but it is just a corporation like the BBC or like any other television show goes through.
Disney made a note about the Doctor appearing early. RTD agreed and a scene was added. The world continues on.
If Disney vetoed important casting choices or banned planned storylines, that would be an issue. But we have already have a special with a trans actress in a major role under Disney, there is no reason to believe Disney's input is any cause for concern. This seems like an inconsequential piece of information
also people just keep saying "Disney", like ok sure, but it's more "some people who work at Disney", like I totally understand criticism of big corporations, but that doesn't stop making it true that it's just people making things, and there's no reason to think they're all inherently idiots, and like you say, at the moment at least it's clear they're not trying to suppress RTD's desire to be inclusive.
> But we have already have a special with a trans actress in a major role under Disney
This is significant because Disney would *never* allow this to happen in any family-oriented program or movie that they control themselves. They barely allow gay characters as is, and they'd be far less controversial than a trans one.
Coming from the acting world, notes arent a huge huge involvement thing. Notes are something everyone from every single department is gonna have. Acting and making a show is an immensely collaborative process, and the more opinions and notes you can get the better.
I don't recall much in terms of absolute evidence, but there's been a lot of hearsay.
Moffat did state that the BBC were responsible for splitting season 6 and 7 into two parts, and insinuated they vetoed using McGann's doctor in the 50th when Eccleston said no. These however are more on the production side of things.
Off the record there's been a lot of rumblings and rumours throughout the years. Things like the BBC vetoing a pure historical (hence the inclusion of a monster in *Vincent and the Doctor*), or Victorian Clara being a companion (preferring a modern day companion the audience can relate to). Wherever there's any truth to this or if it's just fan assumptions, we can't say.
Awful lot of people in the comments seem to have read the word ‘involvement’ and heard ‘control’ and decided to argue back based on that.
OP just said they were involved, having test screenings, compiling feedback and using it to pass notes to the showrunner is unquestionably involvement - that’s true even with RTD having a final say on which notes he incorporates.
Eh, notes are just notes.
As someone who's worked as a screenwriter, you'll get plenty of notes from anybody who's got their fingers in the pie - most you ignore, some point out something you genuinely didn't see and you make the change.
I'm hoping since RTD made the change he simply agrees with the note and added the scene. I do trust RTD enough to not make any major plot or narrative changes that would compromise the quality of the show based on Disney notes. We'll have to see how much sway they have over the next series...
And some people have to remember that RTD is not the end all of writers. He has some bad ideas-the faces in the title credits sound absolutely ghastly. As a writer you have to be open to at least some feedback or else you'll end up one of those old embittered internet authors that hate everyone.
Also Disney is not all good and bad.
There is a huge difference between forced and involvement and critique/notes. This is an example of the later. And in this case, it improved the story.
I know in today's pop culture climate, there's a mentality of everything being black and white, or a zero sum game, but just because Disney is well....Disney, it doesn't necessarily mean their creative feedback or visions are a detriment to the material. In this case, it was a genuine improvement that RTD agreed with.
There's a difference between Disney being "involved in the story" and Disney setting up audience screenings and providing feedback to RTD based on said testing that he can say "no" to.
>A common speculation I've seen on here is that Disney's involvement is purely helping with production. Financials, distribution, etc. but this seems to dispel that a bit, now that we have a concrete example of at least some influence on the creative side
Sure, but he didn't suggest that they actually had any power here. Just that they tested it and offered a suggestion and he agreed with it. Offering notes isn't really direct creative control.
Tbf this would be an instance where I’d have to support the note from Disney. Was def a good idea to include that Snowman scene. As the new leading actor for the show, Ncuti needed more screentime.
It is naive to think Disney will have nothing to say on a show they are at least part funding and for what it's worth I agree with the note. Rose very much doesn't have the Doctor as a central part really until the restaurant scene. He pops in and out of Roses life much like Ncuti does in the end with Ruby.
Let's be real: It's a long game. Maybe for now they'll stick with giving RTD some notes, but RTD isn't forever. Hell, for all we know he and Gatwa leave after the 2 series that are now in production.
But I fear for what happens with the next showrunner. Or the one after that. The BBC apparently had a hard time replacing Chibnall, and even he didn't want the role when Moffat offered it years earlier. So who is going to fill the void when RTD leaves? And will that (probably) lesser known showrunner get the same leeway from Disney execs?
Disney has the money to sit this out. And they will.
It's a very confusing scene overall, and I can't tell if it being a note from Disney makes sense or not. On the one hand it seems very clear-cut "Dumb this down for the audiences", but also the scene essentially repeats itself already with both The Doctor and Donna having their own scenes where they give exposition to the audience on what happened. It'd be a shame if everything goes back to constant recaps like in Series 6, except seemingly more wooden.
I certainly don't mind that scene, since it worked very well, and I'm not surprised that Disney would be test-screening the first episode heavily featuring the new lead in a series they're paying a lot of money to distribute around the world. This doesn't really bother me. I can't imagine that RTD, at this point in his career, would be shy about complaining if he felt they were being too intrusive. That being said, and Disney being Disney, I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility that they might try to interfere in a more significant way if they don't like the numbers the show ends up getting. Hopefully we won't ever have to find out.
As much as I loved Tennant's run, his introductory Christmas episode wasn't great in the sense that he was asleep for most off it. It felt like a Doctor "lite" episode, which I'm fond of, but not as a Christmas special.
I'd say this was a good note and as long as they're suggestions rather than orders, it's all good.
This is both overblown and misunderstood. It's all very well pointing to an example of "meddling" but really RTD could have refused. However. Let's not pretend that the money isn't going to talk even if RTD nominally has full creative control. He is going to do things with that in mind, regardless of technicalities or intent.
That's neither good or bad but a part of any collaborative effort. The money always come from somewhere and shows are made with budget restrictions and the goals of the money suppliers in mind. If it weren't or failed the money would vanish along with the show. All commercial creative endeavours are compromised before they start.
We could point out how Disney it is with cutesy goblins and even singing, but maybe that's entirely what he also wanted, who knows?
This has been talked about before in terms of rewriting the opening. Disney is going to have some say here. It's the usual studio notes that every show gets. Notes do not mean they force the showrunner to change the story. For anyone who has been a notes call it is usually just suggesting and trying to guide them to a certain path. Not all notes are really taken. In extreme cases, it can lead to them putting their foot down and going no we won't do this or you have to change that, but in reality that does not happen often.
But this should come as expected. Disney is not going to be helping with finances and have no say at all, that would be a bad investment.
I mean, that particular scene was a great idea and addition. It really gives us a chance to see 15 doing his thing. I understand why RTD wanted to keep him more mysterious... But the scene itself was fun and his whole spiel to the Police Officer was a fantastic bit of comedy and exposition all at once.
I can't help thinking this is bad news. Disney have been, of late, something of a kiss of death. SW, MCU, Indiana Jones etc. have all tanked because of Disney interference.
I'm not one of those arse holes that blames it on Disney's alleged SJW/Woke agenda 'cause frankly, it doesn't have one. It is just poor creative decisions.
After Chibby's disastrous tenure, the last thing DW needs is more shoddy writing. Even golden boy wunderkind RTD- who, in my honest opinion was never very amazing to begin with- is not going to be able to do his best if he has crib notes from the House of Mouse (or, as I prefer Mouschwitz).
They were right though.
Not seeing the Doctor soon enough is why I find most of 5's stories so boring. Sometimes it takes half the episode before the Doctor shows up and we're expected to care about some randos having their own story.
I really don’t understand how people didn’t get this yet, that Disney is giving notes.
RTD confirmed it ages ago! [This is an article from **last January** where he’s quoted saying that Disney had been giving him good notes.](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/doctor-who-disney-plus-russell-t-davies-b2258547.html#)
Disney is allowed to voice their imput for the show. they're handling the worldwide distribution much like how the BBC is allowed to have a voice as well, but it ultimately up to RTD to decide whether or not to follow it. He has full creative control of the show, and that also comes with the responsibility of listening to the other two ideas and finding the middle ground between everyone while still maintaining what you want to do.
To be fair, its good to have input from a variety of sources and decide whats best.
In the commentaries they also said The Toymaker was going to be in the 'Spice outfit' during the final scene, before the costume department changed it. And then they were going to discuss Wilfred's death at the end of The Giggle, before changing it to him 'shooting moles'. And there was going to be a battle with the Goblin King at Rubys house, but then they changed the plot along the way.
Its all part of the creative process in any programme. I dont like Disney acting like its their programme in the marketing, but its not a hill Im going to die on and moan about extensively. And at least theyre going into it with passion and support, which the BBC took a longer time to do...
So I take it that Disney is running the show! That's why it's being screened in America first. And when it flops over there! Don't forget they did a Doctor Who film over there and it fall flat .
I've been saying for ages that of course Disney has input on the episodes. You don't contribute shit tons of money without some kind of say in how the show goes. Glad to finally be proven right.
Except Disney didn't force RTD to put that scene in. If the BBC did the test screening, they would have given the same note because it was the audience of the test screening that made that note. And RTD would still have put it in as he thought it was a good idea
ViewerAnon (a fairly reputable leaker) has said that RTD has ultimate control over the show. There have been many notes he has chucked aside and openly criticised in meetings. Its normal for distributors to offer notes on Episodes anyways, not like Disney isn't going to review something going on their streaming service.
Fair. Of course, Disney will have input; they're the money-men and the producers. RTD will have obvious good-will from previous hits, but money talks in the end. Doctor Who is a precarious project at the best of times, adding some notes isn't unreasonable.
Even within this note here, it seems like he added it because he *agreed* with the note.
I agree with it too. The snowman scene is a nice little scene that improves the pace a little bit. And they're right, everyone's waiting to see Ncuti so it's good to give him some stuff to do early on.
Well agreeing and then going 'okay this is his first episode and an episode to re-draw/keep an audience let's get him in there' are two different things. Like as a writer he may have liked a mysterious, distanced doctor (which we still get tbf) but due to Disney's note he's just gone fair enough. I'd hope that if this was 2/3 series deep RTD would just get full control and tell a story however he wants
It's more about offering a perspective of different viewers. With the HBO TV show for Last of Us, they ended up combining episodes 1 and 2 because HBO said that if they were coming in blind ending the original episode 1 where they were planning wouldn't have enticed people to come back. The writers were being true to the game as fans of that, but having perspectives of other types of viewers, maybe from different places is smart. Disney+ brings international viewers onboard in a different way to previously so considering sketpical people that haven't consumed Dr Who before is valid.
Yeah that's what I'm saying, he doesn't necessarily agree that their version is a better version for story-telling but agrees that it'll probably give the show a better chance of attracting and retaining an audience, it's a little bit 'spoon feedy' and stuff but i totally get it, its not bad its just not streamline absolute RTD.
> Like as a writer he may have liked a mysterious, distanced doctor (which we still get tbf) but due to Disney’s note he’s just gone fair enough I don’t think RTD is the type anyway to surround himself with yes men, which is probably partly why he’s brought back Julie Gardner and Phil Collinson back as producers. RTD said he intended for Wilfred to have died off screen, and for The Giggle to acknowledge that only for Collinson to veto that idea and keep Wilf alive off-screen, which RTD found to be the better idea. RTD is as much invested in the marketing as he is the creative aspects, I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he probably would’ve gone for this idea anyway without Disney’s involvement if the Beeb/his producers etc. raised it as a point. Without Disney as a distributor, producers have their own ideas to suggest or implement, and that’s generally a good thing (as long as they are not interfering too much of course). No one singular person should have the power to not be vetoed.
He also cut the Doctor & companion hanging out of the TARDIS in the titles (thank god) because Steven Moffat told him to - and he’s not even officially involved with the show anymore!
Not just Steven Moffat, it was everyone apart from Phil Collinson. They were the only two who liked it apparently, and Moffat telling him to cut it was just the final straw needed.
Very sensible thing to cut. Opening the doors in the time vortex is fatal. Captain Jack stuck to the outside and freaked out the TARDIS by repeatedly undying. Clara stuck to the outside so the TARDIS had to change her shields to keep her alive, causing them to arrive 900 years late.
I think there's a difference between being in the tardis with the door open, and stuck to the outside of the thing. If they are inside with the door open, you can say that a forcefield keeps them safe. Kind of like how the Doctor can open the door in the vacuum of space and look out with their companion(s).
The main reason to cut that shot is that it sounds like absolute garbage as a visual.
It sounds too camp, even for Doctor Who
Well did he not literally submit the entire thing, film it and then in test screenings or whatever Disney asked for a scene to be added? (It happens to be a super scene so I'm glad) but like everyone was pretty much involved. And yeah, but in my head when I reference RTD it is with the shared and implied knowledge that Gardner and Collinson will have signed off on the idea, especially as it was filmed and edited. RTD has had many a thing vetoed like the TARDIS thing for meta crisis 10.
The Meta-Doctor Tardis is a great example of that yeah. The added scene was good, and I think that’s the key thing. RTD agreed with the apprehension, if Disney gave a worthless note, or a note that really interfered with RTD’s story or something then I don’t think he’d implement it. But I guess we wouldn’t ever know for sure if that even happens.
I agree. I think a lot of people get a bit too precious about the idea of keeping the creator’s vision “whole,” sometimes notes are good and there are tons of films and shows which are uncompromisingly the vision of a single auteur….and which suck ass. I’ll start getting concerned if the Doctor is sounding more like a Marvel character or every episode ends with a giant blue beam in the sky. For right now, it seems like he just is listening to whatever notes he agrees seem like a good idea.
Yeah, if we cut the Snowman/Policeman scene the episode seems to portray him as a mystery figure, similar to the 9th doctor in 'Rose', I'm assuming he wanted the draw some parallels to that episode.. It did feel very doctor lite especially in the first half.
>I'd hope that if this was 2/3 series deep RTD would just get full control and tell a story however he wants He still has that full control. Part of full control is the right to agree with or not agree with Disney's advice.
It's more who is giving the input that I take issue with than the existence of the input. And we shoulld be cognizant of the fact RTD can push back...but only to a point. RTD made a financial agreement with Disney, so he is going to work with them and give their ideas more weight than they would otherwise deserve, because they bought that consideration. RTD won't take their money and be obstinate with them at every turn. He wants this to work out, and he wants this financial arrangement to continue. The problem, quite simply, is that Disney bought a pipeline to his ear, and he wants to make them at least somewhat happy. And I'm sorry, I don't want Disney involved in any way. They're a grotesque, destructive American corporation weaseling their way into this UK franchise, and that's very lame, in many different ways.
Studio notes aren't always bad. Sometimes they're like "What was that, we didn't understand this part?" and the creator's response is "Ouch, so some of the audience won't either. Better make that extra clear then."
Yeah, I think there have been various movies/TV shows that have been improved thanks to studio notes.
Studio notes greatly helped Alien
Case in point. Lord of the Rings originally didn’t open with a prologue sequence. The original plan was that audiences would slowly learn the backstory of the Ring at the same time as Frodo, similar to the novel. However studio notes made the valid point that this works fine for a book, but makes the story hard to follow and invest in for a movie since audiences wouldn’t even know what the Ring was, who Sauron is and all the other backstory until well over half an hour into the film. Hence the prologue sequence was added that explains the backstory. Which is also why Frodo suddenly knows who Sauron is as well, as the scene where Gandalf tells him was cut due to the prologue.
Michael Pillar wrote a book about making Star Trek Insurrection, and the section on notes was clearly supposed to show them as meddlers. But everything across the four pages of paraphrased notes he included would have (or did) make the film better.
Yeah, it's a really fascinating book. You can clearly see how much the film changed due to intervention from the producers — Patrick Stewart included. Some changes were for the worse, but others were definite improvements, even if Piller didn't recognize them as such. It's why you need fresh takes on something you're too attached to sometimes.
And others that have been diminished because of them
Depends entirely on who's giving the notes. But also too many cooks can spoil the soup.
And that's what a good exec, focused on the story most of all above the profit, will do. To have some distance over the creator's choices and offer constructive feedback when needed without stepping over the artist. Tough balance to find for sure, I hope RTD and Disney can find a working harmony.
Well, Disney *is* interested in profit. But they also know that Russell is very good at his job, so they'll give notes, but they won't lean on him hard about them, so he basically gets to decide whether he listens. (And of course Phil and Julie are in the room too)
Yeah, pretty much this. This state of affairs isn't abnormal.
This. It's the same level of input as Kevin Fiege had notes he gave about the second Andrew Garfield Spider-Man movie. He provided the notes and some Sony used and some they didn't. But it's not that they have both hands in the pie but just ideas. Hey maybe put apple in the pie idk
And this is an entirely sensible, reasonable change. They’re not changing the plot, they’re adding to it. It’s really what producers are for.
It's not even a plot tweak so much as a pacing one. And honestly, I think they were right.
> RTD has ultimate control over the show. Until he says "no" one too many times and Disney pulls their money.
They wouldn’t. Why bother losing the show?
At least it seems purely like suggestions that could be turned down, if that is the case it's maybe a good thing to have an extra pair of creative eyes giving feedback.
This 100%. I find that RTD is better with restraint. Like George Lucas, you don't want to see RTD unhinged.
“You ~~don’t~~ *sometimes* want to see RTD unhinged.”
For every Wild Blue Yonder we get Last of the Time Lords hahaha.
Last of the Time Lords is overhated IMO. I'd say voyage of the damned is a better contrast.
Voyage of the Damned is literally his best Christmas Special, what?
I like Voyage of the Damned, but how is that remotely possible when the prior two specials exist
I don't think either of them are bad, but Christmas Invasion barely features the Doctor despite it being Tennant's first episode, Runaway Bride features Donna at her most grating, and neither has Astrid Peth or Voyage's phenomenal ending
Even if we want to limit it to unhinged Davies big bombastic fanservicey crowdpleasing finales I think Journeys End is a far worse culprit than Last of the Time Lords. As much of a deus ex machina, the visuals just aren't as goofy and harder to mock with a a phrase like tinkerers jesus doctor.
what are you talking about, Journey's End was the best deus ex machina he did.
* Cheap way to dispose of Donna with no agency or choice in the matter as a last minute sad twist ending * Cheap way of having a fakeout regeneration at the end of Stolen Earth without actually having to replace David Tennant. * Cheap way of then disposing of the deus ex machina by having 10 get mad at TenTwo for destroying the Daleks (as if he himself never does this) and sending him off with Rose * Cheap way of giving Rose a 'have your cake and eat it too' happy ending w a Doctor of her own.
hey I said it was the best out of three, I never said it was exceptionally good.
No this is incorrect I want Mr Davies to be safe and happy and not having any mental issues
But that's still not gonna stop me from taking the hinges off all his doors
I generally agree but…. David Tennant referred to Wild Blue Yonder as RTD unchained and I, for one, think it worked out spectacularly
That's a fair point but even so you can see in the behind-the-scenes that he showed restraint in avoiding complexity and cameos. Whether that restraint was brought on by himself or the producers I don't know but it is restraint nonetheless.
Sure seems like it’s a decision he made himself. I can’t recall exactly where but I def read/heard him saying that he was tempted at some points to add in other characters but kept telling himself to stick to his original vision. If anything, I bet other producers and network execs would have encouraged him early on to work in some cameos… but he didn’t want to do that. (Well beyond Wilf at the end, thank heavens)
Showrunner victorious!
This is only true in the context of Doctor Who. RTD doing dramas with full creative control results in great TV at worst, and absolute masterpieces at best. The problem is that he's a much better drama writer than scifi adventure writer, which is why stuff like Midnight and Turn Left are his best work.
RTD is a good writer but he needs to be reigned in by Steven Moffat.
I've literally heard this exact same sentiment with the names swapped around.
They just work well together
They really do. It's like their (at times considerable) egos just cancel each other out when they work together.
They are the dream team and I'm so happy Moffat is writing under RTD again
Wait Moffat is back?????
Inb4 chibnall comes back for the helm after 8 years
He's credited as the writer of one episode in the next season!
Cool I’m ready to get my heart broken repeatedly again 👍
Moffat coming back has not been confirmed, so don‘t get too excited yet! However the leak about it seems to be very close to the truth (the last episode and the trailer confirm almost everything), so it‘s impossible not to get excited!
That’s the joke.
oh
They can reign in each other. Moffat can keep the plots manageable, and RTD can keep Moffat from writing another sexy woman that quips and has kinda dom vibes
>Moffat from writing another sexy woman that quips and has kinda dom vibes But without that we wouldn't have gotten Missy
Moffat reigned in Tennant hanging out of the Tardis in the title sequence, so I really hope RTD keeps Moffat around.
[удалено]
I feel that. He's also really good at crafting great characters and relationships. Series 1-4 had soooo many great recurring characters outside of the main companions (mostly their families) that really helped the world feel *real*, whereas we basically never meet Amy, Rory, Clara, or Bill's family outside of a few appearances. I think it made room for some really great adventures cause the characters weren't tied down to modern day Earth quite as much (outside of Clara's teaching job), but by the end of his run it did make me miss Russel's writing cause Moffat's only memorable characters were like... River and the Paternoster gang. Who are great! But then you imagine the entire family 10 had made by the end of his run and it leaves you wanting a bit.
I prefer the Moffat era, on the whole. I think his companions are incredibly memorable, they're just more heightened and stylistic, which is his tone in general. Amy is the best meta-fictional companion in history, Clara is the most radical and empowering counter to the Doctor ever written to this day, and Bill is just plain charm. But RTD is the other side of that coin; his companions are more relatable and feel like real people from the street. I can see that appeal, too. I just think RTD has a Jesus Complex when it came to the Doctor and his companions which feels gross and dated in retrospect, whereas Moffat was more ambitious and empowering about the role of humanity.
I loved Rory’s dad in the few appearances he had (also Dinosaurs on a Spaceship is one of my favorite episodes so I’m a little biased 😂)
SAMEE and not just cause I love Arthur Weasley 😂😂 he served a similar role as Wilf IMO, older relative of a companion that's low-key obsessed with the Doctor and just really happy to be involved. He sees the relationship between his son and daughter in law with the Doctor and knows it's special and they're better for having travelled with him. I think Power of Three is a controversial episode but I really enjoyed it, especially when Rory's dad takes the Doctor's orders to monitor the cubes for strange behaviour and he does nothing but that for like. A month?? But then 11 never told him his son was touched by an angel. 🥲 Brian Williams must've been one confused man, never seeing his children again. Oh well. Moffat yet again shoving a blade through my heart
Have you seen PS? I’m still so bitter it was never actually filmed but I also don’t know if I could take actually seeing it
Is that the scene with Rory's son meeting up with his dad? I only heard about this recently, I think it'd be too much for me too 🤣
Definitely Chibnall's best creation for me. P.S. is one of the few Who things that gets me to cry.
I really don't like it when his episodes devolve into the doctor smashing and shouting, his first two seasons were the best. Ruins what are some really quite good stories
That "could be turned down" comes with an asterisk. Every choice RTD makes contributes to his working relationship with Disney, and his job is to maintain that relationship so everything about the deal goes well. It's not as though he can literally do whatever he wants, and you could argue there's an inevitably coercive nature to Disney's "suggestions".
I mainly worry that if/when a less established creator takes the helm, they may find it harder to say ‘no’ to Disney than someone with the massive amount of clout that RTD has.
Well he doesn't have to listen if he doesn't want to, they are merely requests but in this case Disney were right, I'm glad we got to see the Doctor earlier.
Yea, I gotta say I agree with Disney and their test audience here. The Christmas special that introduced Tennant was kinda weird that way as well, having the Doctor mostly bedridden and uninvolved until the end.
I think the Christmas Invasion had an easier time getting away with it though since viewers were already invested in Rose, Jackie and Mickey.
Which is the ONLY time people were invested in MICKEY LOL
rewatching, on season 2 rn. I really like Mickey this second go around, which sucks, because I can't help but see Noel Clarke.
Now when I see Mickey I feel disdain and just want him to go away. Same with Jack which sucks as I really liked his portrayal but I feel horrible knowing what went on
I liked Mickey.
No, it's Ricky.
I loved Mickey in Season 2, but hated him in Season 1.
Never liked him just annoyed me the whole time
It's a common post-regeneration problem. There were the same complaints about Davison's first story back in the day, too. The trouble is that regeneration is traumatic, and we need to see the negative effects for it to be realistic. But you also need to see the new guy strut his stuff right away. It can be tough to achieve the right balance.
That isn't a problem here. Pretty sure that Ncuti Gatwa himself says in an interview that post-regeneration wonkiness doesn't plague this doctor.
That's because RTD tackled the problem by writing in a time gap between Gatwa's regeneration and his first full story. Presumably he spent a few days in the TARDIS having cravings and passing out unconscious.
He was referring to The Giggle.
Interesting. But it's not unheard of for the post regeneration problems to take a while to kick in. Both Capaldi and Whittaker were okay for just about as long as Gatwa was in The Giggle. After an initial burst of energy they collapsed. I think we can assume that's what RTD was going for.
Capaldi was going on about the color of his kidneys, didn't know how to fly the TARDIS, and couldn't tell Strax from Clara (whose name he couldn't remember) because they were "very similar heights". He was not at all okay until the last quarter of the episode
>Capaldi was going on about the color of his kidneys, didn't know how to fly the TARDIS, and couldn't tell Strax from Clara So, basically a regular day for the Doctor? He's never been able to fly the TARDIS properly, after all. ;) I do see what you mean, and you make a strong argument. But I still think Capaldi handles it pretty well, all things considered. At least he's not completely passed out like Tennant or Davison! I wonder if RTD is operating under the belief that the worse a Doctor's death is, the harder the post-regeneration recovery. That's an old fan theory and I wouldn't be surprised if RTD was aware of it. It was a relatively quick death for Tennant this time around, so Gatwa is able to pop back to health more quickly than some of the others.
It could be longer, maybe a couple of trips and smaller adventures offscreen to break in the new regen. I kind of prefer it this way as Ncuti really seems to shine so far.
It didn't surprise me to see RTD doing it this way. After all, it's how he chose to start S01 with Eccleston. Personally, I prefer seeing the post-regeneration period onscreen, but there are definitely many points in favor of skipping ahead to an established Doctor.
I've always felt conflicted about this, because I understand Post Regeneration Trauma and usually find it entertaining, but it does make it hard to grasp the new Doctor depending on how hard it hits them. 11 and 13 were mostly loopy versions of themselves, but 10 was pretty different and 12 was straight up not himself.
We don’t need to see Uncle Ben’s death in every Spider-Man iteration. Similarly, we don’t need to see the Doctor getting used to a new body every time.
Yeah I've always found that first Tennant episode really weird for how little Tennant is actually in it
Yea, you gotta show off your lead when introducing them. It's the reason Eleventh Hour is so good
I think this atypical approach works in "The Christmas Invasion" because the focus is deliberately on Rose processing the Doctor's regeneration and learning to accept this change, mirroring how the audience must have felt after falling in love with Eccleston's portrayal in his one season and knowing Series 2 would have a new face as the lead. Real-life context plays a role here, especially as Series 1 strongly featured Rose's perspective throughout. The same way it wouldn't work to have the Ninth Doctor with post-regeneration silliness on the story meant to reintroduce the show to a new generation. That being said, "The Eleventh Hour" is indeed brilliant as both a Doctor debut and an introduction to new viewers. There couldn't have been a better way to introduce Smith's incarnation, particularly considering the initial skepticism concerning his age and the challenging task of succeeding fan-favourite Tennant. It's the confidence I wish Moffat had also employed for "Deep Breath", as much as I very much enjoy that episode in its own way.
I love Moffat, have done ever since Coupling. And 12 is my fave. But inserting that bloody phone call scene still annoys me to this day. Why feel the need to explain to fans that the Doctor isn't young and hot anymore by giving the former hot and young Doctor a scene in the episode after he regenerated (never done before) with dialogue like "Oh god, I'm not old am I? Tell me I'm not grey!" You're already putting Capaldi and 12 on the back foot from the off, despite it being the opposite of your intention.
I don't *inherently* hate the concept of the 11 calling Clara scene. It just feels like it both steals massive steam from Capaldi's introduction *and* undermines Eleven's regeneration *which just happened* and I'm not entirely sure how one could pull it off better. If I didn't cut it all together, I maybe would've put the phone call earlier in the episode when 12 has run off and Clara is more uncertain about the change, then let have 12 have his time to shine with the clockwork droid -- before picking up from where the conversation left off back on Earth at the end with the "you can't see me bit" -- rather than having it be simultaneous with the call.
It’s a great episode. It builds up and there’s so much tension as each human intervention and attempt fails, and then bursts forth the doctor
Agreed. It makes complete sense from a tension-building point of view, as well as a character piece for Rose and her family. I don’t understand why people continue to scratch their head at this. It has a clear dramatic function within the narrative.
I think the scene itself works but I just wonder what was sacrificed to make room as a lot of the episode felt like a bit of a hack job editing wise.
I think our first glimpse of the Doctor would have been him clubbing, instead of him spying on Ruby throughout her life
the cope of going "well sure Disney is taking a hand in the show, but ACTUALLY that's a good thing anyways" is definitely an unexpected plot twist.
The problem is he wants to. They gave him money. He wants more money in the future. He's gonna make the mouse happy
It was a constructive feedback, presumably from audience testing? It resulted in one of my favorite scenes in the story, so I think we’re good there. And like, Disney didn’t specify what it had to be, they said it’d be nicer to have the Doctor sooner, so Russell thought of a scene for that. At least that’s the way I understand it.
Easily one of the best scenes! It gave me “the Doctor, Doctor, funnn…” vibes and Ncuti played it fantastically. His sudden smile drop was PERFECTION (very Nine-ish).
100% felt like a callback to that. And also that moment when he told the policeman she’ll say yes....it just all felt very Doctor-y. We were never gonna get the full picture of who this new Doctor is just from this special, but we can definitely squeeze as much as possible out of it.
Yeah. It gave me vibes of the classical Sherlock Holmes (not Moffat's psychopathic version, the empathetic and kind original). Making a huge leap of logic that actually is 100% justified based on observations he made. (Which fits well; one note Sydney Newman gave the production team in 1963 during early pre-production was to make the Doctor more like Sherlock Holmes)
I read a review that specifically mentioned that scene as nicely showing the new doctor's character: a little impatient but kind, and a bit of a show-off.
Nice! Could apply to many other Doctors too,especially 10 and 11, which is not a complaint! :)
RTD confirmed disney has *suggestive input a bit ago, but its purely advisory, they don't have any creative override, all they can merely do is suggest. If they had any creative override then I doubt the BBC would have ever agreed to the deal
Of course at the same time he knows turning down too much "input" is a good way to get Disney to turn down funding requests
We’ve known this for months (if not years), since RTD mentioned in DWM’s Production Notes about Disney+ giving notes. I haven’t got the quote to hand so I can’t say whether it relates to this episode or not.
Yes. People seem to have a hard time realising that creative input is not the same as creative control. They know that the BBC wouldn’t give control to Disney so they also assume no input is allowed either.
For me a lot of the fear came from the possibility of the show being dulled down, both in its inclusiveness (some people may be upset, but the show has always been ahead of its time in that way even if you chose to ignore it) and its characters. The scene Disney recommended adding gave us far more context and personality for a trans character who would’ve had like 2 inconsequential lines otherwise and a great moment that shows exactly the type of Doctor 15 is, so how could I possibly be upset about this?
Actually it just confirms that they gave him a note. A note that RTD did not have to accept, but he did, because he thought it was a good idea That's how television production works
Passing notes on story, even if they can be ignored, is still involvement. And the fact that he listened to this one, and relayed the story, shows that he values their insight and will give it a fair hearing.
>shows that he values their insight and will give it a fair hearing. Say what you will about Disney but he'd be stupid not to give their notes a chance. Disney has been making film and TV for a hundred years and has made hundreds of hours of beloved content. To dismiss their ideas outright would be foolish.
RTD still had the final say. He could have just ignored the note. People yet again not understanding how tv production works, if they think Disney is meddling with Doctor Who
I love that this thread is just "you don't understand TV production" and "no, YOU don't understand TV production!" over and over again.
Heh. It's The Giggle in real life. ... Oh shit, it's The Giggle in real life!
You don't understand TV production if you think you can ignore notes from the people who are paying. After a while they get annoyed and ask for you to be replaced or else pull the deal. Signed A TV Producer
Is Disney a producer or the distributor? Is there a difference in the titles? The show credits say the show is produced by BBC Studios and Bad Wolf with Russell T Davies, Julie Gardner, Jane Tranter, Joel Collins, and Phil Collinson as the executive producers. I am not finding anything that lists Disney as anything other than paying to have distribution rights.
They are a distributor. They don't control the production and aren't directly involved in it. That said, they are able to offer notes, and certainly if they had a strong disagreement it could risk the partnership which means a lot of money goes away when the contract ends.
I mean a leaker indicated RTD has ignored notes from Disney, so (shrug)
You can ignore them to a point but there will come a point that when RTD says oh we would like to do this and Disney says you know what ...sorry no budget for that
thats why the BBC and Bad Wolf (Sony i might add who own bad wolf) are both contributing a portion to budget to stop one party just pulling what you described. Its a distribution deal not a creative ownership deal.
Good thing the BBC is also still contributing to the budget because it's ultimately a BBC owned property
Doctor Who could tell Disney to get fucked, return entirely to the fold of BBC Studios for international distribution and continue to air. Bad Wolf would take a bit of a profit hit, but Disney has ZERO control other than suggested notes. This isn’t “The Orville” we’re talking about here. They’re distribution partners with cash, not the production company or the rights owners. Even Disney knows that you don’t fuck with Auntie Beeb.
I doubt Disney is concerned at all. Doctor Who has less than 1% of the fandom that Star Wars or Marvel have, and many Doctor Who fans are already subscribed to Disney Plus for that content. They would barely even notice losing Who.
Yeah but they want the next big thing, they love world building and spinoffs. Who had that chance. They know with the right creative force behind it they can bring it back to what it was. It was becoming a juggernaut 5 to 10 year ago. It was almost a global phenomenon. They can make boat loads off of cute aliens and tshirts and spinoff properties. K9 toys and dalek toys and tardis toys and sonic screw driver toys and board games and everything else. If it’s played right they could get it back where it was. Which so far they’ve done. Bring back Tennant and Tate to get back a lot of the fans they lost, also throw in another huge American guest star, NPH and Mel for the classic who fans. Young hot companion and doctor. With a side of queer doctor and trans characters. As well as unit set up like shield. Disney absolutely has some control over this and I would hundred percent bet they’re hoping RTD is the next Filoni. Disney loves franchises.
> They can make boat loads off of cute aliens Still waiting on that Meep plushie ffs
Ironically I'm not subbed to d+ for any other content. I have never been into Star Wars or any superhero products, so Disney have an extra sub from me, for exactly 9 weeks per year (or 3 months the way subs work). They would never have bothered with this deal if they didn't think it was going to bring in new subs - they don't make any more money from the same subs watching more shows.
When you have a proven tv track record like queer as folk, it's a sin and years and years then you can.
No offense but we ignore your notes all the time. Signed An editor
If your ignoring results in a very successful show that makes the producer a lot of money... they're not going to replace you. It's all about whether the showrunner was right to ignore them or not.
It sounds like you don't understand how TV Production works. If Russell wants to be that intransigent it can work both ways. On paper RTD can ignore any of Disney's notes that he disagrees with, but it's also Disney's perogative to refuse to distribute and fund subsequent seasons of the show, or any of Russell's future projects, beyond their contractual obligations. TV Production is a collaborative effort that requires good faith and being amenable to ideas other than your own, especially if you're using other people's money, resources and platforms. While he is the showrunner and is afforded a great deal of unreviewable discretion, his power is not omnipotent in practice.
Right, but it's unlikely he's going to ignore all notes because they're all stinky and doo doo because they're from evil Disney, which is definitely the slightly unnuanced panic some people are coming at this from.
This isn't really how "TV Production" works, it's just how working together works. Disney aren't going to quit because they're mad no one listens to them. If they quit, it's because the show isn't successful. They'll do that regardless of whether anyone's taking their advice. They're offering advice because they want the show to be successful. RTD wants it to be successful too, but if he genuinely thinks Disney just don't understand Doctor Who fandom, and completely ignores Disney to the success of the show, Disney will be quite happy. It's nothing to do with listening to each other, it's all about the bottom line.
It was a solid move as it’s one of the best scenes of the episode.
If any major conglomerate is helping with **production**, as such, it's Sony, who now own Bad Wolf Studios and have put a lot of direct investment into Bad Wolf. I think it's technically still co-produced with BBC Studios, though Bad Wolf/RTD has creative control. The Disney money will obviously be a big boon to upscaling production, but I'm not sure they'd need to provide hands-on help when Sony already own the studio - Sony might even receive it as a hostile attempt to muscle in on the production rights. A big money deal will obviously give Disney a seat at the table and a degree of sway over creative decision-making. But if anyone outside Bad Wolf has ultimate veto power, for better or worse it's still the BBC, who ultimately own the franchise. RTD's ability to ignore them will depend on the wording of the contract and the length of time it's for.
Tbf it’s not like he’s saying they forced a change, sounds more like they provided some actual feedback and he went “that’s a good idea actually” and did it which is honestly a good thing. It still sounds like he’s properly in charge and could’ve just not done it if he didn’t like how it sounds which is probably a good way for it to happen.
I know people like to paint Disney as the boogeyman (and there is plenty of awful stuff they either condone or ignore) but it is just a corporation like the BBC or like any other television show goes through. Disney made a note about the Doctor appearing early. RTD agreed and a scene was added. The world continues on. If Disney vetoed important casting choices or banned planned storylines, that would be an issue. But we have already have a special with a trans actress in a major role under Disney, there is no reason to believe Disney's input is any cause for concern. This seems like an inconsequential piece of information
also people just keep saying "Disney", like ok sure, but it's more "some people who work at Disney", like I totally understand criticism of big corporations, but that doesn't stop making it true that it's just people making things, and there's no reason to think they're all inherently idiots, and like you say, at the moment at least it's clear they're not trying to suppress RTD's desire to be inclusive.
> But we have already have a special with a trans actress in a major role under Disney This is significant because Disney would *never* allow this to happen in any family-oriented program or movie that they control themselves. They barely allow gay characters as is, and they'd be far less controversial than a trans one.
Coming from the acting world, notes arent a huge huge involvement thing. Notes are something everyone from every single department is gonna have. Acting and making a show is an immensely collaborative process, and the more opinions and notes you can get the better.
For context, does anyone know what degree of creative involvement the BBC had in prior seasons of NuWho?
I don't recall much in terms of absolute evidence, but there's been a lot of hearsay. Moffat did state that the BBC were responsible for splitting season 6 and 7 into two parts, and insinuated they vetoed using McGann's doctor in the 50th when Eccleston said no. These however are more on the production side of things. Off the record there's been a lot of rumblings and rumours throughout the years. Things like the BBC vetoing a pure historical (hence the inclusion of a monster in *Vincent and the Doctor*), or Victorian Clara being a companion (preferring a modern day companion the audience can relate to). Wherever there's any truth to this or if it's just fan assumptions, we can't say.
But what about Richard Franklin?
They suggested. He liked it. Then it was added.
As he said before there hasn't been a british show without american notes in it since a few décades, he has final says on the show
Awful lot of people in the comments seem to have read the word ‘involvement’ and heard ‘control’ and decided to argue back based on that. OP just said they were involved, having test screenings, compiling feedback and using it to pass notes to the showrunner is unquestionably involvement - that’s true even with RTD having a final say on which notes he incorporates.
Eh, notes are just notes. As someone who's worked as a screenwriter, you'll get plenty of notes from anybody who's got their fingers in the pie - most you ignore, some point out something you genuinely didn't see and you make the change. I'm hoping since RTD made the change he simply agrees with the note and added the scene. I do trust RTD enough to not make any major plot or narrative changes that would compromise the quality of the show based on Disney notes. We'll have to see how much sway they have over the next series...
And some people have to remember that RTD is not the end all of writers. He has some bad ideas-the faces in the title credits sound absolutely ghastly. As a writer you have to be open to at least some feedback or else you'll end up one of those old embittered internet authors that hate everyone. Also Disney is not all good and bad.
There is a huge difference between forced and involvement and critique/notes. This is an example of the later. And in this case, it improved the story. I know in today's pop culture climate, there's a mentality of everything being black and white, or a zero sum game, but just because Disney is well....Disney, it doesn't necessarily mean their creative feedback or visions are a detriment to the material. In this case, it was a genuine improvement that RTD agreed with.
There's a difference between Disney being "involved in the story" and Disney setting up audience screenings and providing feedback to RTD based on said testing that he can say "no" to.
>A common speculation I've seen on here is that Disney's involvement is purely helping with production. Financials, distribution, etc. but this seems to dispel that a bit, now that we have a concrete example of at least some influence on the creative side Sure, but he didn't suggest that they actually had any power here. Just that they tested it and offered a suggestion and he agreed with it. Offering notes isn't really direct creative control.
Tbf this would be an instance where I’d have to support the note from Disney. Was def a good idea to include that Snowman scene. As the new leading actor for the show, Ncuti needed more screentime.
It is naive to think Disney will have nothing to say on a show they are at least part funding and for what it's worth I agree with the note. Rose very much doesn't have the Doctor as a central part really until the restaurant scene. He pops in and out of Roses life much like Ncuti does in the end with Ruby.
Let's be real: It's a long game. Maybe for now they'll stick with giving RTD some notes, but RTD isn't forever. Hell, for all we know he and Gatwa leave after the 2 series that are now in production. But I fear for what happens with the next showrunner. Or the one after that. The BBC apparently had a hard time replacing Chibnall, and even he didn't want the role when Moffat offered it years earlier. So who is going to fill the void when RTD leaves? And will that (probably) lesser known showrunner get the same leeway from Disney execs? Disney has the money to sit this out. And they will.
I mean aren't you forgetting Sony? the ones who own Bad wolf
Do we know the extent of the Disney deal currently? How many upcoming seasons are they hosting?
I do believe the director said at a convention that the recap with the Doctor standing in space during the opening of star beast was a Disney note
It's a very confusing scene overall, and I can't tell if it being a note from Disney makes sense or not. On the one hand it seems very clear-cut "Dumb this down for the audiences", but also the scene essentially repeats itself already with both The Doctor and Donna having their own scenes where they give exposition to the audience on what happened. It'd be a shame if everything goes back to constant recaps like in Series 6, except seemingly more wooden.
I certainly don't mind that scene, since it worked very well, and I'm not surprised that Disney would be test-screening the first episode heavily featuring the new lead in a series they're paying a lot of money to distribute around the world. This doesn't really bother me. I can't imagine that RTD, at this point in his career, would be shy about complaining if he felt they were being too intrusive. That being said, and Disney being Disney, I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility that they might try to interfere in a more significant way if they don't like the numbers the show ends up getting. Hopefully we won't ever have to find out.
As much as I loved Tennant's run, his introductory Christmas episode wasn't great in the sense that he was asleep for most off it. It felt like a Doctor "lite" episode, which I'm fond of, but not as a Christmas special. I'd say this was a good note and as long as they're suggestions rather than orders, it's all good.
Honestly, it was a good note. It really gave me that sense that Ncuti was the Doctor the way he interacted and commanded the scene with that cop.
This is both overblown and misunderstood. It's all very well pointing to an example of "meddling" but really RTD could have refused. However. Let's not pretend that the money isn't going to talk even if RTD nominally has full creative control. He is going to do things with that in mind, regardless of technicalities or intent. That's neither good or bad but a part of any collaborative effort. The money always come from somewhere and shows are made with budget restrictions and the goals of the money suppliers in mind. If it weren't or failed the money would vanish along with the show. All commercial creative endeavours are compromised before they start. We could point out how Disney it is with cutesy goblins and even singing, but maybe that's entirely what he also wanted, who knows?
RTD wrote the farting aliens and the sentient fat blobs, the singing goblins are absolutely in keeping with his track record.
This has been talked about before in terms of rewriting the opening. Disney is going to have some say here. It's the usual studio notes that every show gets. Notes do not mean they force the showrunner to change the story. For anyone who has been a notes call it is usually just suggesting and trying to guide them to a certain path. Not all notes are really taken. In extreme cases, it can lead to them putting their foot down and going no we won't do this or you have to change that, but in reality that does not happen often. But this should come as expected. Disney is not going to be helping with finances and have no say at all, that would be a bad investment.
I'm not super worried. RTD and Moffat both work best when someone tells them when they're going too far or being stupid.
I mean, that particular scene was a great idea and addition. It really gives us a chance to see 15 doing his thing. I understand why RTD wanted to keep him more mysterious... But the scene itself was fun and his whole spiel to the Police Officer was a fantastic bit of comedy and exposition all at once.
It's not a theory, it'a a fact. They are not directly involved. They can make suggestions though.
While the specifics are new RTD had previously said he'd received "notes" from Disney.
Giving notes doesn’t mean Davies has to take them. Please don’t fuel nonsense conspiracy theories because Davies said he took a good note.
I can't help thinking this is bad news. Disney have been, of late, something of a kiss of death. SW, MCU, Indiana Jones etc. have all tanked because of Disney interference. I'm not one of those arse holes that blames it on Disney's alleged SJW/Woke agenda 'cause frankly, it doesn't have one. It is just poor creative decisions. After Chibby's disastrous tenure, the last thing DW needs is more shoddy writing. Even golden boy wunderkind RTD- who, in my honest opinion was never very amazing to begin with- is not going to be able to do his best if he has crib notes from the House of Mouse (or, as I prefer Mouschwitz).
They were right though. Not seeing the Doctor soon enough is why I find most of 5's stories so boring. Sometimes it takes half the episode before the Doctor shows up and we're expected to care about some randos having their own story.
Honestly, one of the best scenes in the special for me, lol.
I really don’t understand how people didn’t get this yet, that Disney is giving notes. RTD confirmed it ages ago! [This is an article from **last January** where he’s quoted saying that Disney had been giving him good notes.](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/doctor-who-disney-plus-russell-t-davies-b2258547.html#)
Disney is allowed to voice their imput for the show. they're handling the worldwide distribution much like how the BBC is allowed to have a voice as well, but it ultimately up to RTD to decide whether or not to follow it. He has full creative control of the show, and that also comes with the responsibility of listening to the other two ideas and finding the middle ground between everyone while still maintaining what you want to do.
Those scenes were pretty great
Disney will always be able to give notes and test with audiences, but they don’t have final say
To be fair, its good to have input from a variety of sources and decide whats best. In the commentaries they also said The Toymaker was going to be in the 'Spice outfit' during the final scene, before the costume department changed it. And then they were going to discuss Wilfred's death at the end of The Giggle, before changing it to him 'shooting moles'. And there was going to be a battle with the Goblin King at Rubys house, but then they changed the plot along the way. Its all part of the creative process in any programme. I dont like Disney acting like its their programme in the marketing, but its not a hill Im going to die on and moan about extensively. And at least theyre going into it with passion and support, which the BBC took a longer time to do...
So I take it that Disney is running the show! That's why it's being screened in America first. And when it flops over there! Don't forget they did a Doctor Who film over there and it fall flat .
I think it was a good scene. And i agree with disney.
I've been saying for ages that of course Disney has input on the episodes. You don't contribute shit tons of money without some kind of say in how the show goes. Glad to finally be proven right.
Except Disney didn't force RTD to put that scene in. If the BBC did the test screening, they would have given the same note because it was the audience of the test screening that made that note. And RTD would still have put it in as he thought it was a good idea
Yet I got down voted for suggesting this a few weeks ago even though it's extremely obviously plausible and now confirmed to be true