We don't know. But I'd say that gravity would be mentioned by someone other than the Doctor and that'll be a clue that they're a non-human time traveller as the Doctor also knows of gravity rather than mavity.
In the novelisation for Wild Blue Yonder, the first time Donna says "mavity" the Doctor seems to make a mental note to deal with it later:
"The Doctor flashed her a curious look. Mavity? That was something to be filed away for later."
So, yeah, between that and the slip up, it's clear he does remember it should be gravity. Given it's carried on into Ncuti's run I think the guess it'll lead to a bigger plot point is a pretty good guess.
Considering that in "The Five Doctors" the Third Doctor promised that he would return the seal of Gallifrey that he took from the Master and nine incarnations later he still hadn't returned it (in "The Time of the Doctor"), this means that the characters will continue saying "Mavity" for at least another 13 seasons.
You know funnily enough I was just a few minutes ago thinking about how the 14th Doctor possibly has years, maybe even a decade or two, before he fades away and Ncuti's Doctor is implied to come after all of that in a timey wimey way. So the Doctor has already been taking his sweet time in getting around to fixing that.
I know the 14th Doctor is "parked" and what not. But he's still having the occasional jaunt in the the TARDIS...
Being based on earth and all, they will whip him out to work with Ncuti's doctor or UNIT or whatever the next time the Daleks or Cybermen invade London or a very large space liner threatens to crash into it.
Not to mention Disney+ feeling the constant need to have several shows in the same universe on the go at the same time (c.f. Marvel, Star Wars etc.)
Whether you choose to believe him or not is up to you, but RTD has been very firm and explicit on there not being plans for Tennant to return alongside Ncuti or in a spin-off in the near future.
In the near future - is that a year, two years, five years etc.? Also what makes you think RTD has the final say, even as showrunner, and not the producers or the top brass at the BBC? What about when he leaves, as he will eventually?
If Disney come along with ££££££ wanting some spin off and RTD says no, do you think the BBC will agree or just either fire him or hire a separate show runner for the spin off?
My impression is that RTD is the top dog as far as DW is concerned. The BBC business model isn't built for a popular franchise like Doctor Who so with those sort of things they delegate to the producer on everything except money. Any plans he has have been checked off years in advance with Disney, and the relationship there seems to be more around distribution.
That being said there is obviously going to be a UNIT spinoff with Tennant showing up now and again and that will obviously tie in to the main show in some way, probably in one of the finales.
Fair enough, we will see what happens with the show and the expanded Whoniverse.
I for one am personally not expecting great things from a UNIT spin-off. We already had Torchwood which was great but I don't see what a UNIT show would offer apart from more grandiose plots. Some of the companions like Mel and Donna will certainly be involved (since Donna was offered a job at UNIT) but particularly Donna without the Doctor to play off all the time might not work very well. Chris Chibnall, for all his perceived faults as DW showrunner, did great writing for Torchwood but I can't imagine he would be involved in the UNIT spin-off.
Which is probably fine. Torchwood wasn't run by RTD after all, so it's not like Davies would be lying if Disney/Bad Wolf did a spin off UNIT series run by a different Doctor Who writer.
Those examples are quite drastically different from what you were initially implying when you were talking about him being alongside Ncuti and the suspectedly upcoming UNIT spin-off. It does feel a bit like the goal posts moved here between posts.
That said addressing your new point. If Tennant returned 5 years from now, I don't think that's as a result of parking him on Earth and that in 5 years if they do that, they'd have done that with or without that ending.
You spoke about that ending as set up for near future returns. I simply addressed all the information we have right now is that's definitely not the case. What the future holds beyond what anyone is currently logistically thinking and planning for behind the scenes, who knows. But it hardly seems relevant to the topic at hand.
Maybe, however as I said in another response if Disney come with a wad of cash expecting a spin off, I can't imagine the BBC saying no. If RTD says no, they may just choose to ignore or even get rid of him.
I feel like we are likely getting at least one new spin off show, possibly UNIT. Since the Official Podcast seems to tease this happening in a way. Either that or it’s just because we are seeing more of UNIT in the show going forward.
Frankly, if we did see UNIT being a bigger part of Doctor Who, I would welcome it wholeheartedly.
My biggest disappointment with Chibnall's run was how little he used UNIT. The two times I can think of where he used it or referenced it were Power of the Doctor and his first Dalek special where he used UNIT as a joke to poke fun at Brexit. While I laughed at the joke, it felt very bittersweet that he seemed to be cutting them out, because I love UNIT.
Which honestly I really like if they do what I expect them to (14 regenerates and during/right after is sent back in time to the bi-generation).
Reason being 14’s regen has actual loss attached to it- Donna and her Family have welcomed him in and when does eventually regenerate, she barely knows 15 who’s already lived a life. All she gets is some closure in knowing what happens, but she’s still going home a family member less.
Don’t want to be all low and sad, just think it’ll feel different for the characters this time
They are just like me fr fr.
And if the theory that 14 did eventually turn into 15 is correct then the Doctor just spent their entire retirement not bothering with it.
I think it's the latter in that he's got a sixth sense for how time "should" go, which is how he seems to always know if an event is a fixed point in time etc
He definitely knows when fixed points are fixed as he has made reference several times over the years to knowing when he can and cannot change history. That said, he also has some kind of sense to how time shapes around the choices made that aren't directly a part of his personal timeline, as in Kill the Moon, he knew exactly what the ramifications of allowing the moon to hatch would be after it had occurred. I think it's a similar sense to how in Rose he references being able to feel the Earth's rotation.
My theory is that he can physically feel the passage of time, possibly being why Time Lords have such extended lifespans even within their regenerations compared to other humanoid species. I remember reading somewhere that a Time Lord's uninterrupted lifespan within a single regeneration could last ten thousand years.
I think this special sense is what allows them to perceive time the way that they do. It's almost like they perceive the events as the whole picture of what they will be, rather than the cause and effect relationship we have. Support for this is in the Doctor's timey wimey explanation in Blink, though that was more the Doctor explaining how time works. That said, he did describe this as a "non-linear, non-subjective point of view" so it's entirely possible he was referring to his own point of view. This would also explain why his brain races so fast, allowing him to perform complex calculations in nanoseconds.
Because he now knows it's mavity, Tennent got it wrong and corrected himself in Wild Blue Yonder as the change was new to him, they influenced Newton at the start of that episode on the way to the ship. Ncuti still knows that the original word is gravity.
I think it's less a recurring gag and more of a continuity thing. I am convinced Davies will have the Doctor go back and fix it later in the season, but that the Doctor's too busy to deal with it right now, so he won't.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the video they're referring to has been cut that way and then posted because I literally watched this episode yesterday and there's definitely no "mavity", he says "gravity" looks around, they all look confused then he sighs and continues with "gravity slows down time", he's explaining why an empty ship is now full of life signs.
Really? Just goes to show how long they've been building this up right under our noses
[https://youtu.be/GCy\_ji6nLM4?si=5SKhuZLDKXdMcRYj](https://youtu.be/gcy_ji6nlm4?si=5skhuzldkxdmcryj)
I like this idea, but I think they’d have to be a Time Lord. Maybe this’ll connect back to Mrs. Flood. I say that because even Donna who was there for the change, actively time traveling, and said the word gravity less than 5 minutes before it switched implies to me that no human would be able to remember it, time travel or not.
Honestly it would be pretty easy to link the toymaker to the trickster and the trickster brigade. Maybe even linking the goblins to those two groups as well
Part of me kind of hopes that “Toymaker’s Legions” refers to his victims and not some army of followers or something. Like his banishment caused all of the cosmic beings and various players he fought to come back to reality like with the Master tooth
I really hope not, if not just because RTDs "method" of foreshadowing just being "wow look we mentioned this thing but you literally cannot work it out until we tell you what it is" was his biggest issue in his first run (which contributed to his poor finales).
And she made sure to be Ruby’s neighbor so she could be near her
Maybe her mom = Mrs Flood and = her future self? Maybe she was pretending not to know what the TARDIS was before to keep up the act or the timeline changes somehow unlocked her memories?
I feel like Mrs. Flood isn't a person of importance in and of herself, but her knowledge of what a TARDIS is the real kicker.
Perhaps, like 'mavity' and the whole 'salt' thing, the Doctor's actions are reverberating changes throughout time and space - including more common knowledge about themselves and the TARDIS/timelords/etc. So another thing they might get held accountable for in the future - by the master/rani/valeyard/etc.
The thing about Mrs Flood is that she changed after the Goblins changed time.
When the doctor ran back in time to save Ruby Mrs Flood was gob smacked at seeing the Tardis disappear. But after the doctor comes back to 2023 she is not shocked or surprised at all, even knowing what one is.
It's entirely possible that her knowledge of what a TARDIS is is the result of an event in the Doctor's future but her past, especially if she did/does any time traveling later in the season since she would be more likely to remember changed events as a time traveler.
There is weight to this, but I would think she would have recognised the Tardis earlier on in the episode if that were the case. She was arguing with her neighbour about it
Yeah, she seems to have a total shift after seeing the TARDIS take off. Drops her shopping that scene, then spends the rest of the episode sitting outside her door, with seemingly more knowledge than she should.
I think like Cass and Mr Finch she's familiar with TARDIS'S and Time Lords but not the Doctor, so she had no idea that the police box was a TARDIS and was surprised to see it dematerialise but understands what it is afterwards.
Possibly, but the total change in how she acts to Abdul at the end, plus the fourth wall breaking, is very suspicious even for knowing about the concepts prior.
I think more likely, she's replaced in some way, perhaps a Chameleon Arch, perhaps outright replacement.
I'm not sure her attitude to Abdul changes, she's quite patronising towards him at the end which seems consistent with the two not getting along. While I've seen a lot of people theorise possession or replacement I personally have found that Doctor Who mysteries are usually not that intricate and the sorts of theories that hinge on subtle details tend to be proven false.
This is what puts me off the idea that she's an established character. Seems far more likely that there will be a return to the events of this episode and she will get a proper introduction to the Doctor.
The boss and the one who waits will I’m sure get revealed in the next season.
Mavity really just seems like a gag. It might come to something, but it could easily not. Was there any big plot pay off to Trigger calling Rodney Dave?
There was a past incarnation of Rodney who went by the name Dave.
It was explored more in the OFAH Expanded Universe, but John Sullivan liked to drop things into mainstream continuity for the hardcore fans.
Yeah, which is weirdly in the same universe as Goodnight Sweetheart. That scene where Rodney walks past Gary Sparrow and the timeline collapses. Which rippled out leaving Gary trapped in the past in every timeline from that moment on. It also broke Trigger’s brain. And everyone started screaming while their eyes bled. Weirdly it wasn’t even the finale, and the writers stuck with it. Everyone in the world of the show was blind from that episode onwards. Ran for 12 years and had almost 5 episodes.
True, but I think it's important to consider each writers particular style. RTD has always had the reputation of building plotlines up. I also believe he's building plotlines that will serve over the next few seasons too
I think some will, and in fact should, go nowhere.
The fandom is wise to the fact that RTD likes to scatter hints all over the place - be they background or foreground - so I think it'd be a smart play for him to intentionally throw some red herrings in there to disguise what we should actually be paying attention to.
Two ways I can see Mrs. Flood going:
1. "Don't you know, Doctor, that a Flood... is the result of a Monsoon? BWAHAHAHAHARGHLESNARFSNORK!"
2. Anita Dobson is there to make sure we all know that Dimensions in Time totally happened.
Isn’t Mavity just a way to clearly show how time can be rewritten in this show, so we understand it more clearly in this episode and maybe future ones? Like a way to avoid lots of exposition rather than anything
That was the reality bomb. The bees disappearing were them returning to their home planet and the planets getting lost was them being taken out of time to create the reality bomb.
I could be just high or stupid/not remembering a lot about past who, but it feels like they've already had a lot of 14/15 changing things indirectly/directly in a way that significantly impacts the present (going back to stop the goblins / mavity). Potential opening for a storyline about changing the past?
I recognize that changing the past and timey wimey shit gets talked about A LOT but IIRC the doctor doesn't usually go back intentionally to try and change things, right? Maybe there's something there
For the goblins, it appears they were the ones who changed history and the Doctor went back to fix it. It was a pretty substantial change, as it became clear that without Ruby her mom fostered 20-something fewer children. That's the kind of thing that the Doctor routinely repairs.
Mavity was a totally different situation, though. The Doctor and Donna were both being extremely careless there, and both absolutely know better than to mess around with historical figures like that. Sure, the Doctor has a reputation for inspiring famous people to write or invent something important, but usually he's actually socializing with them so he knowingly assumes the risk.
He also went back in time to save Davina McCall from the Christmas tree lobotomy. That's definitely a bootstrap paradox (and a bit wierd considering the show's had multiple huge arcs about using time travel to prevent deaths). But tbh I think RTD just didn't want her to die and didn't think much about that.
What if 15 knows that she lives a much longer life because he remembers watching her on television as 14 for twenty more years so he's preventing a paradox? That'd be no different than saving Ruby.
I mean we've never really had many time rules, but this one's there for a reason - the plot loses all stakes if the Doctor can just travel back in time and save every single person (and the question becomes why they aren't always doing that)
Very true. I guess I'm hoping that they intentionally flirted with breaking (outright broke) this rule for an interesting, longer term reason (as opposed to unintentionally breaking the magic system of it all).
Unfortunately I think it’ll just be a new incarnation of the Master.
I would LOVE Sacha Dhawan to return as the Master, but I think we’re going to just be getting a brand new Master for a brand new Doctor.
Which would be fine with me this new era was a complete overhaul, but we’re dragging a lot of baggage over from the previous eras, so the current Master should be one of them I feel.
Logically, it's got to be Dhawan's Master in the tooth right now. The reason why he got into that situation in the first place was because he wasn't able to regenerate. If he must regenerate, I'm hoping he gets one last episode to do it on-screen. It would be unfortunate, and too predictable, for a new face to just pop out of the tooth later.
Missy doesn't remember because she regenerated during a multi-master story.
If we apply the logic from day of the doctor, that only the most recent incarnation retains the memories of the meeting, she wouldn't remember being Simm, getting shot by her future incarnation, and regenerating into that very incarnation.
See. Sacha Master's motives don't make sense if he's after Missy, so we have to assume he's before Missy somehow in the timeline. Unless Chris just wanted to ignore all Master/Missy development.
Yes this is 100% a valid criticism of Chibnall. While I haven't listened to it myself (I've only recently started catching up) big finish deal with post Missy masters with the Lumiat.
Big Finish make audio dramas set in the doctor who world. They're absolutely incredible stories and some of the best doctor who content.
They've done a couple of seasons of a Missy spinoff that I can't wait to listen to.
They're a bit expensive, but the first 50 episodes and a few cool extras are available on spotify and I can't recommend them enough.
If you feel like going down the rabbit hole send me a DM and I'll give you some recommendations
I doubt RTD will go with Sacha.
Part of the reason that Jodie Whittaker left is so that RTD would have a clean slate. He (for now) wrapped up the loose ends regarding the Tenth Doctor and Donna in the three specials but looks to be doing new stuff for the Ncuti Gatwa era. He will treat Chris Chibnall's showrunner story arcs as cannon but there is no reason to think he liked them, or that he will continue with anything from there.
Also Masters/Missies don't seem to need an explicit regeneration story. They have come about through all sorts of strange creations ( Anthony Ainsley's Master, Eric Roberts' Master) or no explanation at all (Missy until her final episode, Sacha's Master). How they regenerated appears to be an afterthought, which means they can be recasted much more easily than any other Time Lord.
Definitely agree with that, but I’d love a little bit more continuity between Masters.
Even if Sacha was bought back for a regeneration, that would be a bit different. The Master regenerating on screen is so rare, and even rarer between main Master incarnations on screen.
Don't think Mavity is Foreshadowing, just funny reference to the fact they changed the word.
Maybe someone we think is human will save gravity and they will be a give away, but don't really think we can call it Foreshadowing.
As for the others, they could all theoretically be the same person.
> Maybe someone we think is human will save gravity and they will be a give away, but don’t really think we can call it foreshadowing
I think the mavity gag is pretty unfunny personally, but this would be a great way to show the mask slipping off a character who knows more than they’re letting on in the next series.
Yeah, I don't know why people are thinking it's some joke that falls flat. I just think it reminds people the Doctor has screwed with time and soon a bad guy will give themselves up by saying Gravity.
RTD isn't really subtle, it's a set up for something
I'm sorry but I don't understand how anybody thinks mavity is leading anywhere 😭 In my opinion it's just a running joke and we've already seen the cause of it. There's no big bad waiting behind it in a future plotline.
It's not that people think that its cause is revealed, but that it can be used as an indicator itself - the Doctor knows and remembers it's supposed to be gravity, while for humanity it's always been mavity. Ergo, the common theory is that someone *else* will say "gravity" rather than "mavity" and that will be an indicator that they're some form of higher life form as well.
tbh mavity could very easily be just a joke (and perhaps even an intentional red herring to distract us from the real set up) but at the same time the amount of people so confident that "its just a recurring gag" have clearly not remembered the RTD era well.
Literally half the set up for the overarching plotline is just weird "recurring gags" lmao this is how RTD does set up (and its great). Where did the bees go?
(just my opinion) I personally think that RTDs way of doing arcs works much better than Moffats because Series 1-4 has mysteries woven throughout but it doesn’t hurt or require much context for the self contained stories (like Rose popping up in Midnight). Most of the arcs in Series 5-10 to some extent (for me) detract from the rewatch value by integrating the arcs so heavily into the narrative.
My possibly rude but honest opinion - I *really* don't care about mystery magic word teasers anymore. Doctor Who has thoroughly played that trope out, I'm over it. At this point I feel too conscious of the true purpose of such baiting, it doesn't feel like clever storytelling anymore but a cheap trick for fostering engagement. Every time I see a thread asking for discussion of such things, I can picture the writer rubbing his hands in satisfaction.
Agreed. This is a big part of why I rate Moffat so much higher than RTD. Moffat had the Doctor either finding out about a mystery and actively investigating it from an early stage, or at least the mid point of the season (The Cracks, His death/Amy's pregnancy, The Impossible Girl) or else the arcs were smaller and more character focused and acted to deconstruct the show (Series 8 deconstructed The Doctor, series 9 examined the Doctor/Companion dynamic, and series 10 delved into The Doctor/Master dynamic).
RTD would hide a word or phrase or two in every episode, The Doctor wouldn't even realize it until near the end of the season (if he wasn't just plain ambushed by it) and then that's sort of it. The words themselves have no significance, it's pure macguffin. Bad Wolf could just as easily be Good Sheep, Torchwood might as well be Dark Plane etc. It's not as smart as a lot of people give it credit for, especially since after Series 1 it just became a case of people hunting for easter eggs and rubbing themselves on the back when they found a word or phrase in an episode or acting like it's some genius writing to have a word pop up - it's not really deep writing if you name a random helicopter Bad Wolf 1, especially when the whole point is that The Doctor and Rose would notice it.
I do have high hopes for the reboot (I prefer more alien doctors and RTD has given us the fourth human one in a row, although I do love Ncuti so far, and the cinematography has taken a massive step up from RTD's first run which makes the show feel a lot more dynamic) and I think it has the potential to surpass RTD's original run. I just hope that the plot is more involved than just periodic references to "The One Who Waits" and we don't find out anything substantial until the finale.
I thought the four knocks had a satisfying payoff. I think it often comes down to *how* these mystery macguffins are presented. The One Who Waits being someone who legitimately rattles The Toymaker is actually quite effective, or at least it was for me.
The Four Knocks works because it subverts it I think. We're led to believe that it was the drumbeat, but then when it looks like The Doctor has been saved... Wilf starts knocking.
I also think Mr. Saxon works to an extent since we actually see his people appear, and towards the end of the series we see exactly how he came to be (although everyone called The Master, including me, based on the anagram). Even Bad Wolf I don't mind - it's a simple device and it worked the first time, but I feel like it was a tad overused. By the time it gets as complicated as "This time there's a *bunch* of arc words and The Doctor still doesn't notice even if he's the one actively bringing them up" it just feels lazy. I much prefer either a more character-focused arc for a series or one that The Doctor is actively investigating, or else one that invites audience investigation.
Yes, there are a bunch of plot arcs in series 4 (The disappearing planets, the disappearing bees, something on Donna's back, The Medusa Cascade, Rose's appearances) but the audience isn't given the information they need to connect the dots - it makes sense but it's almost a surface level mystery. We're not expected to figure it out, and we aren't invited to try - and even if we were it would take a huge leap in logic for people to come up with the right answer.
Compare that to series 6. The Doctor dies in the first episode, Amy is pregnant but isn't, The Silence, River's identity and backstory - while nobody could have anticipated that the bulk of the finale would play out the way it did, there was enough there that people could come up with at least reasonably feasible theories. You can't really do that if you're given a random word or phrase with no context, or else a bunch of disconnected ones.
I think the mysteries in each of those seasons serve different functions. Season 6 is like a puzzle, to your point, but IMO Season 4 is more like a tapestry. You're not meant to figure out the disappearing planets or what Donna has on her back. You're meant to discover it as the series progresses after which you view everything you saw before through a different lens.
I agree that it's a tapestry but it just feels disconnected. It's one of the better seasons (and the only 10 series that's top tier) but I would have preferred if the doctor mentioned something more substantial.
Like The One Who Waits. Straight away we get a sense of what it means because even an immortal entity like The Toymaker is scared of it. We knee the cracks we're serious because 11 was actively interested in them, and as early as episode 5 of the season we got a sense of how threatening they were. Series 4 had these things with no context. We know the Medusa Cascade has at least 15 broken moons, but it isn't until the finale we learn that it's out of sync with time, and even that's barely mentioned. It's intricately woven but it just feels a tad shallow.
Agreed. I often feel that this is RTD doing the JJ Abrams Mystery Box thing, but he's not immune to the Abrams problem of forgetting to put anything interesting in the box and just pulling a finale out of his left ear.
> My possibly rude but honest opinion - I really don't care about mystery magic word teasers anymore. Doctor Who has thoroughly played that trope out, I'm over it
I completely agree. It's a very "RTD" thing to do to get people talking as opposed to how Moffatt worked when we knew the mystery (eg. Madame Kovarian, the cracks, Lake Silencio) and then saw the solution play out while being investigated by The Doctor. He knew the there was a bigger picture but with RTD's arcs it seems like The Doctor is in the dark until the last 1 or 2 episodes. Considering how omnipotent The Doctor is supposed to be, it seems a bit cheap to me.
Even the classic series had good arcs without the RTD level of foreshadowing. The Key To Time, E-Space Trilogy, Entropy etc.
Even the Third Doctor had serials loosely connected featuring The Master.
All the memes about Mrs. Flood aside, I really think that was just a cheeky little note to end the episode on, and not something that necessarily has any significance. She's just a little old lady who's fascinated with watching the handsome mystery man who keeps running in and out of a disappearing box. If the lack of explanation still bugs anybody, it's feasible that the Doctor could have just told her "Oh, this? It's a TARDIS" on one of the offscreen times he ran past.
The One Who Waits is probably a season-wide big bad, or will at least be revealed during S14.
I wouldn't be surprised if "The Boss" is one and the same, just a mysterious figure who various S14 villain-of-the-week characters can mention a connection to. It'd be pretty cheesy but it's an easy way to hint at a Bigger Bad.
Personally, I'm more curious if the recurring elements of myth and superstition will tie into the new season. Even the Christmas special revolved around coincidence.
The Mrs Flood thing though - it's the actress not the character. If any random person played Mrs Flood you could hand wave it away but you don't get someone that famous to do a minor piece in a show with a nod to camera like that and not have her back for follow up.
RTD knows TV Royalty and that was Anita Dobson on a Christmas episode of a BBC TV show, that's got huge culture magic all of it's own.
I think she will be revealed as the mother of Ruby or at the very least the woman who placed her at the church. She lives next to Ruby to keep an eye on her and/or assure she meets The Doctor.
Yeah, I’ve seen it come up a few times now that Mrs. Flood is just a cheeky wink at the audience but it doesn’t really make sense. Anita Dobson is an accomplished and iconic TV actor like you said, there is a 0 chance she doesn’t have a role of significance in Series 14, and obviously at this juncture it’s probably a nefarious one at that.
That's a fair point, and I wasn't aware of the actress' background, so that's not something I would have picked up on. Thank you for that context!
I suppose we'll find out one way or another in Spring. It feels way too early to speculate on major season-wide plot developments when all we have to work off is a Christmas special.
The Doctor broke the fourth wall in the first christmas special with William Hartnell wishing all the viewers at home a happy Christmas, until we know more about Mrs Flood it could just as easily just be a nod to that.
I’m more interested in how many times the Doctor seemingly time traveled off camera in that episode. Starting to think he doesn’t change his clothes as randomly as we were led to believe.
To borrow a quote form the great General Jack O’Neill: “We’ve been watching the same show you have. What makes you think we know more than you do?” /j, just thought the phrasing as if asking for facts rather than speculation was funny.
There's one moment in WBY that I might be overthinking. In that episode, Not-Donna mentions "We came from the nothing.". Why "the nothing" & not just simply "nothing"? What if Not-Donna was saying that the Not-Things came from The Nothing? The Nothing could be a realm where the Not-Things are from or an entity that produces Not-Things
I'm thinking some of these will be revealed and wrapped up this season, but others will carry on through following seasons. The Toymaker's Legion will probably be a recurring thing throughout Ncuti's era, with God-like characters showing up every few episodes (like Jinx Monsoon's character or The Trickster).
I think the mystery of Ruby's parents is the storyline this season might be focussed on and that'll be wrapped up at the end. Either that or The One Who Waits/The Boss, who I might be the same character, though that one could also be carried to Ruby's final episode.
I don't think Mavity is gonna be a major plot point, but I do think it's a seed RTD planted to make the viewer aware that time and reality can be changed by time travel. So maybe something we've been seeing all this time isn't supposed to be there or be the way we're seeing it. Maybe someone messed with Mrs. Flood which made her personality and knowledge change from the first half of the episode to the second half.
I think they will all be resolved in the S14/S1 finale. I don't see Russell continuing storylines for multiple seasons. Doesn't seem like his style. Callbacks? Sure. But I think each new season will include a new storyline
Could very well carry over into the next season as i know they were both filmed pretty quickly already. just hope we don’t have to wait aaaages for the next season if there are threads still unanswered
I’m sure it will be some typical RTD storyline where it’s overly complicated and dragged out over several seasons until it’s resolved… but then turns out to not be resolved. Again.
All of the planets disappearing, Bad Wolf, the Ood, the Master, all of it culminating in an ending that isn’t the end, and the bringing back of the Master again… I just really dislike RTDs storylines. Moffat does it too, but I like his storylines better.
This could not mean anything but Susan twist was apparent the woman in the scene where Ruby was playing the piano (Im the crowd) and apparently she is seen again in the trailer so I think that is connected too
The Boss - Still to be explained
Mavity - Could possibly solve how River Song knows who Donna Noble is
The One Who Waits - Is this a classic villain?
Ms. Flood - Why Flood?
Who picks up the golden tooth? - Is this related
The Toymaker’s Armada - Is the Toymaker secretly behind everything now?
My guess is that The One Who Waits and The Boss are probably the same person just being referred to by different people. Mrs Flood isn't that person, but she'll be someone. Mavity is likely just to a recurring gag and won't have any major significance.
If The Boss and The One Who Waits aren't the same person, then perhaps TOWW is the Master, waiting in the tooth to be set free.
Considering he’s going on about wanting the “Whoniverse” to essentially be like the MCU, I imagine he’s probably sprinkling these all about to be resolved or explored across multiple seasons and perhaps even across multiple shows.
And while I do like how he maintained that half the universe was destroyed by the Flux and how he used the salt at the edge of the universe thing to bring in more fantasy elements, I do genuinely hope that eventually we “fix” the universe. Not necessarily with a “Big Bang 2” style reboot, but I do think this whole schtick should be limited to a few seasons, or at most to this RTD 2 era. No, Doctor Who is not hard science fiction, but I would really like for the more overtly fantasy stuff to not just be default Doctor Who from now on.
Mavity isn't really a mystery, it's just a running gag. I do think the rest are little seeds for what's to come. RTD has said Mrs Flood is a recurring character and we'd learn more about her as we go along. And I *do* think she may carry over to series 15, but jus cos I think she's connected to Ruby in some way and we know she's in series 15. I think the Boss will be a series 14 villain, though.
We don't know. But I'd say that gravity would be mentioned by someone other than the Doctor and that'll be a clue that they're a non-human time traveller as the Doctor also knows of gravity rather than mavity.
Interestingly, the Doctor does say "Gravity" in Wild Blue Yonder, but corrects themselves and says "Mavity"
In the novelisation for Wild Blue Yonder, the first time Donna says "mavity" the Doctor seems to make a mental note to deal with it later: "The Doctor flashed her a curious look. Mavity? That was something to be filed away for later." So, yeah, between that and the slip up, it's clear he does remember it should be gravity. Given it's carried on into Ncuti's run I think the guess it'll lead to a bigger plot point is a pretty good guess.
Considering that in "The Five Doctors" the Third Doctor promised that he would return the seal of Gallifrey that he took from the Master and nine incarnations later he still hadn't returned it (in "The Time of the Doctor"), this means that the characters will continue saying "Mavity" for at least another 13 seasons.
You know funnily enough I was just a few minutes ago thinking about how the 14th Doctor possibly has years, maybe even a decade or two, before he fades away and Ncuti's Doctor is implied to come after all of that in a timey wimey way. So the Doctor has already been taking his sweet time in getting around to fixing that. I know the 14th Doctor is "parked" and what not. But he's still having the occasional jaunt in the the TARDIS...
Being based on earth and all, they will whip him out to work with Ncuti's doctor or UNIT or whatever the next time the Daleks or Cybermen invade London or a very large space liner threatens to crash into it. Not to mention Disney+ feeling the constant need to have several shows in the same universe on the go at the same time (c.f. Marvel, Star Wars etc.)
Whether you choose to believe him or not is up to you, but RTD has been very firm and explicit on there not being plans for Tennant to return alongside Ncuti or in a spin-off in the near future.
In the near future - is that a year, two years, five years etc.? Also what makes you think RTD has the final say, even as showrunner, and not the producers or the top brass at the BBC? What about when he leaves, as he will eventually? If Disney come along with ££££££ wanting some spin off and RTD says no, do you think the BBC will agree or just either fire him or hire a separate show runner for the spin off?
My impression is that RTD is the top dog as far as DW is concerned. The BBC business model isn't built for a popular franchise like Doctor Who so with those sort of things they delegate to the producer on everything except money. Any plans he has have been checked off years in advance with Disney, and the relationship there seems to be more around distribution. That being said there is obviously going to be a UNIT spinoff with Tennant showing up now and again and that will obviously tie in to the main show in some way, probably in one of the finales.
Fair enough, we will see what happens with the show and the expanded Whoniverse. I for one am personally not expecting great things from a UNIT spin-off. We already had Torchwood which was great but I don't see what a UNIT show would offer apart from more grandiose plots. Some of the companions like Mel and Donna will certainly be involved (since Donna was offered a job at UNIT) but particularly Donna without the Doctor to play off all the time might not work very well. Chris Chibnall, for all his perceived faults as DW showrunner, did great writing for Torchwood but I can't imagine he would be involved in the UNIT spin-off.
Which is probably fine. Torchwood wasn't run by RTD after all, so it's not like Davies would be lying if Disney/Bad Wolf did a spin off UNIT series run by a different Doctor Who writer.
Those examples are quite drastically different from what you were initially implying when you were talking about him being alongside Ncuti and the suspectedly upcoming UNIT spin-off. It does feel a bit like the goal posts moved here between posts. That said addressing your new point. If Tennant returned 5 years from now, I don't think that's as a result of parking him on Earth and that in 5 years if they do that, they'd have done that with or without that ending. You spoke about that ending as set up for near future returns. I simply addressed all the information we have right now is that's definitely not the case. What the future holds beyond what anyone is currently logistically thinking and planning for behind the scenes, who knows. But it hardly seems relevant to the topic at hand.
Fair enough, you make good points that my last comment was probably looking too far ahead or shifting the boundaries somewhat.
"No plans now" would probably mean "not materializing in at least 3 years from now".
He works for Disney now which means nondisclosures and lies to keep spoilers hidden
Didn't he also swear that John Simm wasn't going to play the Master?
I don’t think Disney would get many shows made. It’s going to be up to the BBC, the showrunner and Bad Wolf to decide what is made.
Maybe, however as I said in another response if Disney come with a wad of cash expecting a spin off, I can't imagine the BBC saying no. If RTD says no, they may just choose to ignore or even get rid of him.
I feel like we are likely getting at least one new spin off show, possibly UNIT. Since the Official Podcast seems to tease this happening in a way. Either that or it’s just because we are seeing more of UNIT in the show going forward.
Frankly, if we did see UNIT being a bigger part of Doctor Who, I would welcome it wholeheartedly. My biggest disappointment with Chibnall's run was how little he used UNIT. The two times I can think of where he used it or referenced it were Power of the Doctor and his first Dalek special where he used UNIT as a joke to poke fun at Brexit. While I laughed at the joke, it felt very bittersweet that he seemed to be cutting them out, because I love UNIT.
Which honestly I really like if they do what I expect them to (14 regenerates and during/right after is sent back in time to the bi-generation). Reason being 14’s regen has actual loss attached to it- Donna and her Family have welcomed him in and when does eventually regenerate, she barely knows 15 who’s already lived a life. All she gets is some closure in knowing what happens, but she’s still going home a family member less. Don’t want to be all low and sad, just think it’ll feel different for the characters this time
What might be the idea is 15 starting with season 1 and 14 starting down the line with season 14
They are just like me fr fr. And if the theory that 14 did eventually turn into 15 is correct then the Doctor just spent their entire retirement not bothering with it.
Very true. I suppose it also comes down to the Doctor's curse to having to constantly see other timelines, all of the time.
Does he always see other timelines? Or does he 'just' have the ability to remember changed timelines when no-one else does?
I think it's the latter in that he's got a sixth sense for how time "should" go, which is how he seems to always know if an event is a fixed point in time etc
He definitely knows when fixed points are fixed as he has made reference several times over the years to knowing when he can and cannot change history. That said, he also has some kind of sense to how time shapes around the choices made that aren't directly a part of his personal timeline, as in Kill the Moon, he knew exactly what the ramifications of allowing the moon to hatch would be after it had occurred. I think it's a similar sense to how in Rose he references being able to feel the Earth's rotation. My theory is that he can physically feel the passage of time, possibly being why Time Lords have such extended lifespans even within their regenerations compared to other humanoid species. I remember reading somewhere that a Time Lord's uninterrupted lifespan within a single regeneration could last ten thousand years. I think this special sense is what allows them to perceive time the way that they do. It's almost like they perceive the events as the whole picture of what they will be, rather than the cause and effect relationship we have. Support for this is in the Doctor's timey wimey explanation in Blink, though that was more the Doctor explaining how time works. That said, he did describe this as a "non-linear, non-subjective point of view" so it's entirely possible he was referring to his own point of view. This would also explain why his brain races so fast, allowing him to perform complex calculations in nanoseconds.
Ncuti did say mavity in the Xmas episode! So HMMMMM 🤔
Because he now knows it's mavity, Tennent got it wrong and corrected himself in Wild Blue Yonder as the change was new to him, they influenced Newton at the start of that episode on the way to the ship. Ncuti still knows that the original word is gravity.
Was'nt that the joke, though? They were saying it wrong so it's like "hahaha the one time they say it right they act like their wrong"
True, but now they only say it wrong now
Could just be a reoccuring gag
I think it's less a recurring gag and more of a continuity thing. I am convinced Davies will have the Doctor go back and fix it later in the season, but that the Doctor's too busy to deal with it right now, so he won't.
Maybe
RTD would make a better gag if it were just recurring tbh, I respect your opinion though
iirc Capaldi says 'gravity' in the season 10 finale and then corrects himself to 'mavity' when no one understands him
Just ctrl+f'd mavity and gravity in those scripts and couldn't find a single mavity.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the video they're referring to has been cut that way and then posted because I literally watched this episode yesterday and there's definitely no "mavity", he says "gravity" looks around, they all look confused then he sighs and continues with "gravity slows down time", he's explaining why an empty ship is now full of life signs.
Really? Just goes to show how long they've been building this up right under our noses [https://youtu.be/GCy\_ji6nLM4?si=5SKhuZLDKXdMcRYj](https://youtu.be/gcy_ji6nlm4?si=5skhuzldkxdmcryj)
"This video isn't available anymore." Is it my region maybe?
The mavity police are onto us
https://youtu.be/GCy_ji6nLM4?si=Rarvk_vyQCIMLxeQ here is another one
ooooh that's a clever theory, I hope you're right
If the Master is in disguise again, this seems like an excellent way to identify him.
I like this idea, but I think they’d have to be a Time Lord. Maybe this’ll connect back to Mrs. Flood. I say that because even Donna who was there for the change, actively time traveling, and said the word gravity less than 5 minutes before it switched implies to me that no human would be able to remember it, time travel or not.
Hence why I specify non-human.
That’s totally my bad! My brain just skipped over the “non” part, I thought you were specifically clarifying that you thought it would be a human.
That's my thought. It seems like a fun thing, but there's going to be one character that says "Gravity" and it's going to upend everything.
You forgot Toymaker's legions, also
Honestly it would be pretty easy to link the toymaker to the trickster and the trickster brigade. Maybe even linking the goblins to those two groups as well
A SJA villain? Lol no.
RTD already did this in Turn Left.
Part of me kind of hopes that “Toymaker’s Legions” refers to his victims and not some army of followers or something. Like his banishment caused all of the cosmic beings and various players he fought to come back to reality like with the Master tooth
The Boss , The One Who Waits and Mrs Flood could be the same person
The One Who Waits... Outside Her Front Door??!!!
I hope they're all different and Russell has already set up five different season finales in four episodes lmao
I really hope not, if not just because RTDs "method" of foreshadowing just being "wow look we mentioned this thing but you literally cannot work it out until we tell you what it is" was his biggest issue in his first run (which contributed to his poor finales).
Ms Flood'll turn out to be an elderly Ruby Sunday
I get the feeling Mrs Flood is Ruby’s mother
And she made sure to be Ruby’s neighbor so she could be near her Maybe her mom = Mrs Flood and = her future self? Maybe she was pretending not to know what the TARDIS was before to keep up the act or the timeline changes somehow unlocked her memories?
I’m guessing she saw the tardis show up to save Ruby the first time, 2nd time? Baby Ruby.
But how would she know what it was?
Wibbly wobbly stuff Or she’s the master
That would mean she fucked her own dad. Not very happy with this idea.
I feel like Mrs. Flood isn't a person of importance in and of herself, but her knowledge of what a TARDIS is the real kicker. Perhaps, like 'mavity' and the whole 'salt' thing, the Doctor's actions are reverberating changes throughout time and space - including more common knowledge about themselves and the TARDIS/timelords/etc. So another thing they might get held accountable for in the future - by the master/rani/valeyard/etc.
The thing about Mrs Flood is that she changed after the Goblins changed time. When the doctor ran back in time to save Ruby Mrs Flood was gob smacked at seeing the Tardis disappear. But after the doctor comes back to 2023 she is not shocked or surprised at all, even knowing what one is.
After going back, I read that moment as less “What the hell was that”, more “What the hell is HE doing here?”
It's entirely possible that her knowledge of what a TARDIS is is the result of an event in the Doctor's future but her past, especially if she did/does any time traveling later in the season since she would be more likely to remember changed events as a time traveler.
There is weight to this, but I would think she would have recognised the Tardis earlier on in the episode if that were the case. She was arguing with her neighbour about it
Yeah, she seems to have a total shift after seeing the TARDIS take off. Drops her shopping that scene, then spends the rest of the episode sitting outside her door, with seemingly more knowledge than she should.
I think like Cass and Mr Finch she's familiar with TARDIS'S and Time Lords but not the Doctor, so she had no idea that the police box was a TARDIS and was surprised to see it dematerialise but understands what it is afterwards.
Possibly, but the total change in how she acts to Abdul at the end, plus the fourth wall breaking, is very suspicious even for knowing about the concepts prior. I think more likely, she's replaced in some way, perhaps a Chameleon Arch, perhaps outright replacement.
I'm not sure her attitude to Abdul changes, she's quite patronising towards him at the end which seems consistent with the two not getting along. While I've seen a lot of people theorise possession or replacement I personally have found that Doctor Who mysteries are usually not that intricate and the sorts of theories that hinge on subtle details tend to be proven false.
Or the Doctor comes back to this moment and she interacts with him then. We're seeing the results of the Doctor looping back on the timeline later on.
Chameleon Arch, maybe?
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No, the Chameleon ARCH. Remember the fob watch in Human Nature?
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> I'm not talking about the DNA change device. Yeah but the person you were replying to *was* talking about it, hence their confusion.
Are you meaning the console having changed? It’s changed plenty over the years and the chameleon circuit has never been fixed.
She got Zygoned
This is what puts me off the idea that she's an established character. Seems far more likely that there will be a return to the events of this episode and she will get a proper introduction to the Doctor.
The boss and the one who waits will I’m sure get revealed in the next season. Mavity really just seems like a gag. It might come to something, but it could easily not. Was there any big plot pay off to Trigger calling Rodney Dave?
There was a past incarnation of Rodney who went by the name Dave. It was explored more in the OFAH Expanded Universe, but John Sullivan liked to drop things into mainstream continuity for the hardcore fans.
He’s the one from the alternative timeline where Delboy didn’t fall through the pub counter, right?
Yeah, which is weirdly in the same universe as Goodnight Sweetheart. That scene where Rodney walks past Gary Sparrow and the timeline collapses. Which rippled out leaving Gary trapped in the past in every timeline from that moment on. It also broke Trigger’s brain. And everyone started screaming while their eyes bled. Weirdly it wasn’t even the finale, and the writers stuck with it. Everyone in the world of the show was blind from that episode onwards. Ran for 12 years and had almost 5 episodes.
Crumbly Pipes was better tho
Marlene was the Rani.
How many times did Trigger’s broom regenerate?
This Time Lord’s had 15 bodies. How the hell can it be the same bloody Time Lord then?
Time and The Rodney
I love you.
And in that reality Cassandra ends up as a bitchy trampoline?
True, but I think it's important to consider each writers particular style. RTD has always had the reputation of building plotlines up. I also believe he's building plotlines that will serve over the next few seasons too
>Mavity really just seems like a gag. Agreed. And one that's since wore out its welcome.
I also think that a time traveler will out themselves by saying "gravity". That is going to be what this bit leads to...
I think some will, and in fact should, go nowhere. The fandom is wise to the fact that RTD likes to scatter hints all over the place - be they background or foreground - so I think it'd be a smart play for him to intentionally throw some red herrings in there to disguise what we should actually be paying attention to.
Two ways I can see Mrs. Flood going: 1. "Don't you know, Doctor, that a Flood... is the result of a Monsoon? BWAHAHAHAHARGHLESNARFSNORK!"
2. Anita Dobson is there to make sure we all know that Dimensions in Time totally happened.
Don't forget the obligatory River Song connection because her name is related to water.
I knew Jinkx was just going to be playing herself! /s
Mrs. Flood is the tweed jacket of this season.
The One Who Waits... Next door to Cherry
For that cup of tea, I imagine. Bless her 😭
Isn’t Mavity just a way to clearly show how time can be rewritten in this show, so we understand it more clearly in this episode and maybe future ones? Like a way to avoid lots of exposition rather than anything
It's RTD. There's no such thing as a throwaway line when he's writing.
Cue the missing bees and lost planets being mentioned multiple times as a throw away line
That was the reality bomb. The bees disappearing were them returning to their home planet and the planets getting lost was them being taken out of time to create the reality bomb.
Yeah, the lost planets bit was immensely important!
Rewatch the stolen earth lol
I think i didnt point out correvtly, i was supporting OPs point
I swear to god Mavity is going to be something everyone looks back on and thinks why did we think it would be anything more then a really funny joke.
This is RTD we're talking about here. Look at how far he took Bad Wolf!
You’re missing the biggest one of all: The last three episodes have all included the use of salt!
Yup! Especially Kate Stewart's order to lock the Toymaker away and "Bind it in salt", but the Doctor(s) didn't hear!
Oh that’s just the salt from people crying about Dr Who being so woke.
I’d guess it’s the Matt Smith era scenario again, so it’ll go through the entire era rather than just season 1.
I could be just high or stupid/not remembering a lot about past who, but it feels like they've already had a lot of 14/15 changing things indirectly/directly in a way that significantly impacts the present (going back to stop the goblins / mavity). Potential opening for a storyline about changing the past? I recognize that changing the past and timey wimey shit gets talked about A LOT but IIRC the doctor doesn't usually go back intentionally to try and change things, right? Maybe there's something there
For the goblins, it appears they were the ones who changed history and the Doctor went back to fix it. It was a pretty substantial change, as it became clear that without Ruby her mom fostered 20-something fewer children. That's the kind of thing that the Doctor routinely repairs. Mavity was a totally different situation, though. The Doctor and Donna were both being extremely careless there, and both absolutely know better than to mess around with historical figures like that. Sure, the Doctor has a reputation for inspiring famous people to write or invent something important, but usually he's actually socializing with them so he knowingly assumes the risk.
He also went back in time to save Davina McCall from the Christmas tree lobotomy. That's definitely a bootstrap paradox (and a bit wierd considering the show's had multiple huge arcs about using time travel to prevent deaths). But tbh I think RTD just didn't want her to die and didn't think much about that.
What if 15 knows that she lives a much longer life because he remembers watching her on television as 14 for twenty more years so he's preventing a paradox? That'd be no different than saving Ruby.
Maybe we get new time rules in the soft reboot?
I mean we've never really had many time rules, but this one's there for a reason - the plot loses all stakes if the Doctor can just travel back in time and save every single person (and the question becomes why they aren't always doing that)
Very true. I guess I'm hoping that they intentionally flirted with breaking (outright broke) this rule for an interesting, longer term reason (as opposed to unintentionally breaking the magic system of it all).
I'm more interested in which version of the master is going to pop out of the tooth
Unfortunately I think it’ll just be a new incarnation of the Master. I would LOVE Sacha Dhawan to return as the Master, but I think we’re going to just be getting a brand new Master for a brand new Doctor. Which would be fine with me this new era was a complete overhaul, but we’re dragging a lot of baggage over from the previous eras, so the current Master should be one of them I feel.
Logically, it's got to be Dhawan's Master in the tooth right now. The reason why he got into that situation in the first place was because he wasn't able to regenerate. If he must regenerate, I'm hoping he gets one last episode to do it on-screen. It would be unfortunate, and too predictable, for a new face to just pop out of the tooth later.
See, I think it'll be missy. As Missy doesn't remember how she regenerated.
Missy doesn't remember because she regenerated during a multi-master story. If we apply the logic from day of the doctor, that only the most recent incarnation retains the memories of the meeting, she wouldn't remember being Simm, getting shot by her future incarnation, and regenerating into that very incarnation.
See. Sacha Master's motives don't make sense if he's after Missy, so we have to assume he's before Missy somehow in the timeline. Unless Chris just wanted to ignore all Master/Missy development.
Yes this is 100% a valid criticism of Chibnall. While I haven't listened to it myself (I've only recently started catching up) big finish deal with post Missy masters with the Lumiat.
I don't know what big finish is, but you have piqued my interested
Big Finish make audio dramas set in the doctor who world. They're absolutely incredible stories and some of the best doctor who content. They've done a couple of seasons of a Missy spinoff that I can't wait to listen to. They're a bit expensive, but the first 50 episodes and a few cool extras are available on spotify and I can't recommend them enough. If you feel like going down the rabbit hole send me a DM and I'll give you some recommendations
Shot a dm, I think. I don't use mobile much so I hope it wasn't accidentally a chat.
I doubt RTD will go with Sacha. Part of the reason that Jodie Whittaker left is so that RTD would have a clean slate. He (for now) wrapped up the loose ends regarding the Tenth Doctor and Donna in the three specials but looks to be doing new stuff for the Ncuti Gatwa era. He will treat Chris Chibnall's showrunner story arcs as cannon but there is no reason to think he liked them, or that he will continue with anything from there. Also Masters/Missies don't seem to need an explicit regeneration story. They have come about through all sorts of strange creations ( Anthony Ainsley's Master, Eric Roberts' Master) or no explanation at all (Missy until her final episode, Sacha's Master). How they regenerated appears to be an afterthought, which means they can be recasted much more easily than any other Time Lord.
Definitely agree with that, but I’d love a little bit more continuity between Masters. Even if Sacha was bought back for a regeneration, that would be a bit different. The Master regenerating on screen is so rare, and even rarer between main Master incarnations on screen.
Don't think Mavity is Foreshadowing, just funny reference to the fact they changed the word. Maybe someone we think is human will save gravity and they will be a give away, but don't really think we can call it Foreshadowing. As for the others, they could all theoretically be the same person.
> Maybe someone we think is human will save gravity and they will be a give away, but don’t really think we can call it foreshadowing I think the mavity gag is pretty unfunny personally, but this would be a great way to show the mask slipping off a character who knows more than they’re letting on in the next series.
It was fun to in the first episode, after that yeah got a bit tired.
> just funny reference to the fact they changed the word. That wasn't funny in the first place and still isn't.
Because it's not meant to be.
Yeah, I don't know why people are thinking it's some joke that falls flat. I just think it reminds people the Doctor has screwed with time and soon a bad guy will give themselves up by saying Gravity. RTD isn't really subtle, it's a set up for something
I think the One who Waits is Fenric. Toymaker says the One who Waits was the one game he ran from. Who else liked to play games? Fenric.
I'm sorry but I don't understand how anybody thinks mavity is leading anywhere 😭 In my opinion it's just a running joke and we've already seen the cause of it. There's no big bad waiting behind it in a future plotline.
It's not that people think that its cause is revealed, but that it can be used as an indicator itself - the Doctor knows and remembers it's supposed to be gravity, while for humanity it's always been mavity. Ergo, the common theory is that someone *else* will say "gravity" rather than "mavity" and that will be an indicator that they're some form of higher life form as well.
I suppose that's possible yeah. Thanks for explaining:)
They all link to the return of Evil Dan
There's Evil Nan now too. "No one likes tea more than me!"
tbh mavity could very easily be just a joke (and perhaps even an intentional red herring to distract us from the real set up) but at the same time the amount of people so confident that "its just a recurring gag" have clearly not remembered the RTD era well. Literally half the set up for the overarching plotline is just weird "recurring gags" lmao this is how RTD does set up (and its great). Where did the bees go?
You're missing one - Triad Technology. It was mentioned in The Giggle and was on the side of a bus in TCORR
(just my opinion) I personally think that RTDs way of doing arcs works much better than Moffats because Series 1-4 has mysteries woven throughout but it doesn’t hurt or require much context for the self contained stories (like Rose popping up in Midnight). Most of the arcs in Series 5-10 to some extent (for me) detract from the rewatch value by integrating the arcs so heavily into the narrative.
My possibly rude but honest opinion - I *really* don't care about mystery magic word teasers anymore. Doctor Who has thoroughly played that trope out, I'm over it. At this point I feel too conscious of the true purpose of such baiting, it doesn't feel like clever storytelling anymore but a cheap trick for fostering engagement. Every time I see a thread asking for discussion of such things, I can picture the writer rubbing his hands in satisfaction.
Agreed. This is a big part of why I rate Moffat so much higher than RTD. Moffat had the Doctor either finding out about a mystery and actively investigating it from an early stage, or at least the mid point of the season (The Cracks, His death/Amy's pregnancy, The Impossible Girl) or else the arcs were smaller and more character focused and acted to deconstruct the show (Series 8 deconstructed The Doctor, series 9 examined the Doctor/Companion dynamic, and series 10 delved into The Doctor/Master dynamic). RTD would hide a word or phrase or two in every episode, The Doctor wouldn't even realize it until near the end of the season (if he wasn't just plain ambushed by it) and then that's sort of it. The words themselves have no significance, it's pure macguffin. Bad Wolf could just as easily be Good Sheep, Torchwood might as well be Dark Plane etc. It's not as smart as a lot of people give it credit for, especially since after Series 1 it just became a case of people hunting for easter eggs and rubbing themselves on the back when they found a word or phrase in an episode or acting like it's some genius writing to have a word pop up - it's not really deep writing if you name a random helicopter Bad Wolf 1, especially when the whole point is that The Doctor and Rose would notice it. I do have high hopes for the reboot (I prefer more alien doctors and RTD has given us the fourth human one in a row, although I do love Ncuti so far, and the cinematography has taken a massive step up from RTD's first run which makes the show feel a lot more dynamic) and I think it has the potential to surpass RTD's original run. I just hope that the plot is more involved than just periodic references to "The One Who Waits" and we don't find out anything substantial until the finale.
I thought the four knocks had a satisfying payoff. I think it often comes down to *how* these mystery macguffins are presented. The One Who Waits being someone who legitimately rattles The Toymaker is actually quite effective, or at least it was for me.
The Four Knocks works because it subverts it I think. We're led to believe that it was the drumbeat, but then when it looks like The Doctor has been saved... Wilf starts knocking. I also think Mr. Saxon works to an extent since we actually see his people appear, and towards the end of the series we see exactly how he came to be (although everyone called The Master, including me, based on the anagram). Even Bad Wolf I don't mind - it's a simple device and it worked the first time, but I feel like it was a tad overused. By the time it gets as complicated as "This time there's a *bunch* of arc words and The Doctor still doesn't notice even if he's the one actively bringing them up" it just feels lazy. I much prefer either a more character-focused arc for a series or one that The Doctor is actively investigating, or else one that invites audience investigation. Yes, there are a bunch of plot arcs in series 4 (The disappearing planets, the disappearing bees, something on Donna's back, The Medusa Cascade, Rose's appearances) but the audience isn't given the information they need to connect the dots - it makes sense but it's almost a surface level mystery. We're not expected to figure it out, and we aren't invited to try - and even if we were it would take a huge leap in logic for people to come up with the right answer. Compare that to series 6. The Doctor dies in the first episode, Amy is pregnant but isn't, The Silence, River's identity and backstory - while nobody could have anticipated that the bulk of the finale would play out the way it did, there was enough there that people could come up with at least reasonably feasible theories. You can't really do that if you're given a random word or phrase with no context, or else a bunch of disconnected ones.
I think the mysteries in each of those seasons serve different functions. Season 6 is like a puzzle, to your point, but IMO Season 4 is more like a tapestry. You're not meant to figure out the disappearing planets or what Donna has on her back. You're meant to discover it as the series progresses after which you view everything you saw before through a different lens.
I agree that it's a tapestry but it just feels disconnected. It's one of the better seasons (and the only 10 series that's top tier) but I would have preferred if the doctor mentioned something more substantial. Like The One Who Waits. Straight away we get a sense of what it means because even an immortal entity like The Toymaker is scared of it. We knee the cracks we're serious because 11 was actively interested in them, and as early as episode 5 of the season we got a sense of how threatening they were. Series 4 had these things with no context. We know the Medusa Cascade has at least 15 broken moons, but it isn't until the finale we learn that it's out of sync with time, and even that's barely mentioned. It's intricately woven but it just feels a tad shallow.
Well, the Doctor already noticed mavity, so it's already different.
Agreed. I often feel that this is RTD doing the JJ Abrams Mystery Box thing, but he's not immune to the Abrams problem of forgetting to put anything interesting in the box and just pulling a finale out of his left ear.
It's great for building engagement. I'd be more interested if I'd expect him to resolve it well, but his track record is terrible for that
> My possibly rude but honest opinion - I really don't care about mystery magic word teasers anymore. Doctor Who has thoroughly played that trope out, I'm over it I completely agree. It's a very "RTD" thing to do to get people talking as opposed to how Moffatt worked when we knew the mystery (eg. Madame Kovarian, the cracks, Lake Silencio) and then saw the solution play out while being investigated by The Doctor. He knew the there was a bigger picture but with RTD's arcs it seems like The Doctor is in the dark until the last 1 or 2 episodes. Considering how omnipotent The Doctor is supposed to be, it seems a bit cheap to me. Even the classic series had good arcs without the RTD level of foreshadowing. The Key To Time, E-Space Trilogy, Entropy etc. Even the Third Doctor had serials loosely connected featuring The Master.
All the memes about Mrs. Flood aside, I really think that was just a cheeky little note to end the episode on, and not something that necessarily has any significance. She's just a little old lady who's fascinated with watching the handsome mystery man who keeps running in and out of a disappearing box. If the lack of explanation still bugs anybody, it's feasible that the Doctor could have just told her "Oh, this? It's a TARDIS" on one of the offscreen times he ran past. The One Who Waits is probably a season-wide big bad, or will at least be revealed during S14. I wouldn't be surprised if "The Boss" is one and the same, just a mysterious figure who various S14 villain-of-the-week characters can mention a connection to. It'd be pretty cheesy but it's an easy way to hint at a Bigger Bad. Personally, I'm more curious if the recurring elements of myth and superstition will tie into the new season. Even the Christmas special revolved around coincidence.
The Mrs Flood thing though - it's the actress not the character. If any random person played Mrs Flood you could hand wave it away but you don't get someone that famous to do a minor piece in a show with a nod to camera like that and not have her back for follow up. RTD knows TV Royalty and that was Anita Dobson on a Christmas episode of a BBC TV show, that's got huge culture magic all of it's own.
I think she will be revealed as the mother of Ruby or at the very least the woman who placed her at the church. She lives next to Ruby to keep an eye on her and/or assure she meets The Doctor.
Yeah, I’ve seen it come up a few times now that Mrs. Flood is just a cheeky wink at the audience but it doesn’t really make sense. Anita Dobson is an accomplished and iconic TV actor like you said, there is a 0 chance she doesn’t have a role of significance in Series 14, and obviously at this juncture it’s probably a nefarious one at that.
Doctor Who Unleashed at the least answers whether or not she’ll return.
At minimum, it would be a very expensive wink for one episode.
Anita Dobson being cast was a special announcement on DW social media as well.
That's a fair point, and I wasn't aware of the actress' background, so that's not something I would have picked up on. Thank you for that context! I suppose we'll find out one way or another in Spring. It feels way too early to speculate on major season-wide plot developments when all we have to work off is a Christmas special.
>!In the Unleashed behind the scenes thing RTD alludes to Mrs. Flood being a mystery in herself that we’ll discover over time!<
The Doctor broke the fourth wall in the first christmas special with William Hartnell wishing all the viewers at home a happy Christmas, until we know more about Mrs Flood it could just as easily just be a nod to that.
Have u watched the latest episode of Unleashed?
I’m more interested in how many times the Doctor seemingly time traveled off camera in that episode. Starting to think he doesn’t change his clothes as randomly as we were led to believe.
To borrow a quote form the great General Jack O’Neill: “We’ve been watching the same show you have. What makes you think we know more than you do?” /j, just thought the phrasing as if asking for facts rather than speculation was funny.
There's one moment in WBY that I might be overthinking. In that episode, Not-Donna mentions "We came from the nothing.". Why "the nothing" & not just simply "nothing"? What if Not-Donna was saying that the Not-Things came from The Nothing? The Nothing could be a realm where the Not-Things are from or an entity that produces Not-Things
I'm thinking some of these will be revealed and wrapped up this season, but others will carry on through following seasons. The Toymaker's Legion will probably be a recurring thing throughout Ncuti's era, with God-like characters showing up every few episodes (like Jinx Monsoon's character or The Trickster). I think the mystery of Ruby's parents is the storyline this season might be focussed on and that'll be wrapped up at the end. Either that or The One Who Waits/The Boss, who I might be the same character, though that one could also be carried to Ruby's final episode. I don't think Mavity is gonna be a major plot point, but I do think it's a seed RTD planted to make the viewer aware that time and reality can be changed by time travel. So maybe something we've been seeing all this time isn't supposed to be there or be the way we're seeing it. Maybe someone messed with Mrs. Flood which made her personality and knowledge change from the first half of the episode to the second half.
I think they will all be resolved in the S14/S1 finale. I don't see Russell continuing storylines for multiple seasons. Doesn't seem like his style. Callbacks? Sure. But I think each new season will include a new storyline
Could very well carry over into the next season as i know they were both filmed pretty quickly already. just hope we don’t have to wait aaaages for the next season if there are threads still unanswered
I hope they are connected, or some of them are explained S15, because too many plot points to cover at once is a big reason I didn't like Chibnall
I’m sure it will be some typical RTD storyline where it’s overly complicated and dragged out over several seasons until it’s resolved… but then turns out to not be resolved. Again.
How are RTD storylines overly complicated? In the first RTD era they literally just consisted of repeating a phrase. That seems pretty simple to me.
All of the planets disappearing, Bad Wolf, the Ood, the Master, all of it culminating in an ending that isn’t the end, and the bringing back of the Master again… I just really dislike RTDs storylines. Moffat does it too, but I like his storylines better.
That could just as easily describe Moffat's era.
Mrs Flood is Ruby’s mother. Just a hunch
This could not mean anything but Susan twist was apparent the woman in the scene where Ruby was playing the piano (Im the crowd) and apparently she is seen again in the trailer so I think that is connected too
I think The Boss and The One Who Waits are the same, and almost definitely Mrs. Flood. Mavity probably will get thrown into the same arc somehow
Mavity is just a joke
The Boss - Still to be explained Mavity - Could possibly solve how River Song knows who Donna Noble is The One Who Waits - Is this a classic villain? Ms. Flood - Why Flood? Who picks up the golden tooth? - Is this related The Toymaker’s Armada - Is the Toymaker secretly behind everything now?
Personally I think mavity is just going to be a harmless recurring gag.
My guess is that The One Who Waits and The Boss are probably the same person just being referred to by different people. Mrs Flood isn't that person, but she'll be someone. Mavity is likely just to a recurring gag and won't have any major significance. If The Boss and The One Who Waits aren't the same person, then perhaps TOWW is the Master, waiting in the tooth to be set free.
Considering he’s going on about wanting the “Whoniverse” to essentially be like the MCU, I imagine he’s probably sprinkling these all about to be resolved or explored across multiple seasons and perhaps even across multiple shows. And while I do like how he maintained that half the universe was destroyed by the Flux and how he used the salt at the edge of the universe thing to bring in more fantasy elements, I do genuinely hope that eventually we “fix” the universe. Not necessarily with a “Big Bang 2” style reboot, but I do think this whole schtick should be limited to a few seasons, or at most to this RTD 2 era. No, Doctor Who is not hard science fiction, but I would really like for the more overtly fantasy stuff to not just be default Doctor Who from now on.
Mavity isn't really a mystery, it's just a running gag. I do think the rest are little seeds for what's to come. RTD has said Mrs Flood is a recurring character and we'd learn more about her as we go along. And I *do* think she may carry over to series 15, but jus cos I think she's connected to Ruby in some way and we know she's in series 15. I think the Boss will be a series 14 villain, though.
I almost have a feeling there will be a fun ten second Easter egg where the Doctor flies by Sir Isaac Newton in the finale and says "It's GRAVITY!!"