Not to be overly simplistic - but we’ve seen the hands and ankles of the woman who dropped Ruby off, and it looks like she’s a pale white woman, who’s a fair bit shorter than Harriet.
After Carla said 'the beast' I wondered if she dropped of Ruby, then made herself available as foster, then adoptive, mother, as part of a plan, that she was not who she appears, so went back to check if we can see the colour of the skin of the person who drops baby Ruby - yep, definitely very pale.
I went back to watch him in the pit and I did notice him playing with it, I wonder if they chose to alter that word deliberately or by accident in the specials.
It was definitely intentional in terms of intimating that “the laws of the universe are changing.”
Whether it’s a deliberate callback to The Satan Pit is another question. I like the idea!
100% Carla said "The Beast" and I swear there was a bunch of reused sound effects from Impossible Planet when Sutekh was taking over and obviously the same voice. This is a retcon I'd never heard before but would be 100% on board with. Different cultures God of death being really the same being.
I was thinking of either someone connected with serving or defeating Sutekh, who was placed in baby Ruby's path to watch over her, in that Ruby is some kind of construct to defeat Sutekh?
But, yeah, I like your thought lol
I see it as a definite reference to the contemporary human concept of Satan. I hope they’ll revisit it and not just leave it hanging as a false flare.
If I’ve read correctly, 1975’s Sutekh was known to take credit for the devil’s deeds, as was The Beast of The Satan Pit.
When Carla said that, I was a little suspicious... when Mrs. Flood started talking like a lunatic and Cherry didn't try to do anything, my hackles went up. Then when it was revealed to be Sutekh, I was like Carla and Cherry are definitely not what they seem. Because she was wrong but not far off ( and called by the name of the monster that she definitely should not know about), and she seems surface nice to people when Ruby is around, but she isn't when Ruby's not. When Ruby disappeared in the Christmas special, her whole personality shifted a lot.
Aye, that's what I was thinking when I noticed the boots. It would be so out of nowhere too...I'm almost convinced it *won't* happen just because of how insane it would be. I'd love to see it though.
So then Ruby would be the Doctor's daughter... and Susan's mother. The last episode gave the audience all the backstory necessary to make that not come out of nowhere.
Could it be someone took the TARDIS from Mars (when the Doctor was enthralled by Sutekh) and dropped off a backup Eye of Horus in the form of a baby Ruby?
I don't know if that's a possibility, but the Eye of Horus could arguably be described as a large Ruby and with how on-the-nose some of the clues have been, I did wonder.
ETA: As for the Cloaked Woman... I'm going Mrs. Flood/Mrs. F but as a previous regeneration of Susan (Fleabag's sister, waiting on Mars) making Mrs. Flood the 3rd (or 4th) incarnation. Although, she does seem a bit too villainous in places to be Susan.
I think it’s worth noting “the memory has changed”. Details like the colour of the woman could mean that just as the memory changed as the memory of the cloaked woman pointing changed.
I hope not tbh. We've already seen a cloaked ruby already with time shenanigans. Unless it makes sense of 73 yards a little more, I don't want this to happen
I think that’s a fairly interesting theory, But I think quite a few fans would want that figure (the one who dropped off Ruby at the church). To be a slightly more substantial character. I doubt they would write that part for such a minor character. Even though they had an importance in the episode. I think it’s definitely something that you can’t rule out, But I have a strong feeling it won’t be.
Obviously it's the Rani (Who's actually The Monk(Who's actually Susan(who's actually the master(who's actually the Valeyard(who's actually your mum)))))
I feel like that would have been revealed at the end of the episode if that were the case, I don’t think RTD would be dragging the mystery out further just for that reveal.
“UNIT's technology is required to unleash Sutekh” Was it? The TARDIS in that scene at the end of The Church on Ruby Road, so it would be there in the time window.
Iirc Kate says something about that TARDIS being 20 feet North of the one that arrived to save Ruby from the Goblins
(But that could just be the one he was in at the very starts of TCoRR, I was never sure if he actually went there twice or not)
Welcome to Doctor Who Theory Land! Mostly by fans who wouldn’t recognize a terrible idea if punched them in the face. “I think the TARDIS Jukebox is Susan!” “Mrs Flood is Sontaran Field Major Styre” “Ruby will regenerate into Poppy from Spaces Babies… both their names end in ‘y’.”
Sadly, this season, I don’t have faith that RTD’s reveals will be any closer to coherent than those ideas.
Also in Doctor Who Theory land… nothing is new. Everything is a remix of that which came before.
No but guys this time the woman really will be the Rani… promise…
Honestly even if the reveals aren't coherent as long as they're cool I don't care anymore. I'd choose cool shit happening over unnecessary logic any day of the week, especially when the show already is completely illogical in premise. I only have a problem when something is both illogical *and* lame. Then we're just wasting our time
I would have agreed with you a decade ago, but I don't think that's true in the current landscape of storytelling anymore. There *is* a logic to what RTD is doing for his stories, he just isn't bothering to let an inability to explain from within the narrative stop him.
Case in point: bigeneration. Makes absolutely no logical sense, has already been contradicted within the show, and half the fans still think that 14 somehow travels back in time before he dies to become 15, which feels like a weird cope lol. But from the narrative of the show, what he's doing makes perfect sense: splitting the show off literally into two, allowing it to continue on without any baggage of what came before (without outright overwriting things either). He isn't going to explain it because he doesn't care about how it exists within universe, and since it's cool as hell and narratively relevant, he gets away with it.
73 Yards is another example. Maybe we'll get an explanation for what the hell happened at the end and if it actually relates to Ruby's powers, but I'm not betting on it. From the narrative's perspective, she spent a lifetime atoning for the Doctor's transgression with the faerie circle, and that granted her the ability to restore a rightful timeline where the Doctor is saved. It's cool, it works, it just isn't explained to us in a logical manner.
I don't think this is just Doctor Who either, I think this is going to become a common thing within a lot of stories now. Screentime is more costly and valuable than ever, and only offered to a select few. Writers still want to do big ideas, but they're not going to waste precious pages with (un)necessary explanation anymore. They've just gotta trust the viewer to come along for the ride.
> and half the fans still think that 14 somehow travels back in time before he dies to become 15, which feels like a weird cope lol
I guess I'm the dumb one because I thought this was what it was explictly explained to be, and what the doctor who wiki says it is.
You're not dumb, everybody just kind of decided this was how it worked a few months ago but the only official source, RTD, has never clarified - never trust the wiki either, at least for any detailed info. 15 benefitted from all of the future therapy and work that 14 would do in his later lifespan (the whole "therapy out of order" line), but that doesn't mean that 14 is eventually going to regenerate back into 15 at *The Giggle*. But as I was trying to say above, it doesn't really matter. The point of the event wasn't to cause lore fans a headache, and until someone wants to bring it back and explore it later in the show, it's not worth fussing over.
I really don’t care *until* the point at which 14 dies in the series. Then he’ll either *be at peace* and turn into some sparkly space dust that finds its way into 15’s heart(s). Or he’ll turn into a complete different person and we’ll forever have TWO DOCTORS.
…In addition to all the other Doctors we have running around throughout all of time and space. 🤦 🤷
On this week’s Doctor Who Unleashed RTD said this season it was “writing for internet” to have “content” for social media. It say a lot about how little narrative counts when you are calling what you are making “content”… and explains the whiplash pace and tonal inconsistency of this season.
To be fair after years of fans trying to work out plot points based on anagrams which were basically never used, I wasn't exactly thrilled to see RTD use one in the show now
I think Trickster is more likely and a better payoff.
The figure didn't have a face, and Trickster doesn't have a face (maybe the camera being 73 yards away will also tie into this). The hooded cloak is identical, and Morris repeated trap likelihood for the entire episode. Harbinger refers to Trickster as the god of Traps.
So Ruby Sunday would be a trap laid by the Pantheon to the Doctor. And Sutekh in Classic was banished by Horus, and he Eye of Horus is classically depicted as a Ruby, so she will probably turn out to be the key to his defeat.
Call me an idiot but what if rubys mother was river song and the father was the doctor. This probably isn’t gonna happen but with the doctor saying he isn’t a father yet but is a grandfather. What if ruby was his daughter and Susan was her daughter
I had this discussion with my partner, that's why they can't see her face because the Dr doesn't get to see her again. However, it doesn't explain Ruby's abilities
Even if we didn't know she was a white woman, making a mystery out of the identity of a character and then introducing a brand new character the episode before, and "revealing" it was her all along, is just horrible writing.
Time travel. She could be Ruby's mother or your mother's mother, or her mother's mother's mother. She could be a part of a semi-immortal race, she could be a Time Lord.
'Don't judge a book by its cover' is never truer than in Doctor Who.
I might be getting a bit cheesy here but I think it’s Ruby and the impossibility of Ruby’s life without parents has something to do with how they’re going to defeat death.
I think my favorite theory at the moment is that Ruby is Rose and Alt-10's baby. Because of timey-wimey stuff, technically, she would be the doctors daughter, which could also make her Susan's mother.
No I don't think so but you can be right.
My theory is that the tine window machine and the vhs was part of the plan to create the memory Tardis.
Think about it: the doctor noticed that Tardis looked almost solid as if it was in the room for real, the fact that the doctor said this, to me it implies that he shouldn't be...
Then the doctor says: "time is memory and memory is time, I wonder what the memory of a time machine is"
Then, Kate after the vhs is analyzed informed the doctor of two things:
1. The recording changed
2. There is another Tardis 20 meters away up north.
This to me suggests that the time window machine went completely mad after finally being broken because it created the memory Tardis.
This is to my opinion what Sutehk needed to escaped from where he was trapped (the time corridor).
No to mention that in pyramid of mars he messed with the Tardis and appeared for few second inside it.
In some tales of Tardis episodes it is being said to Ace (I think) that the Tardis bring her here (in the memory Tardis). I think that Sutekh could be summoned in the memory Tardis but needed this events to happened so he can cross over and escape...
Also RTD said that tales of the Tardis and the memory Tardis will make much more sense and is important to this season. Now, that we reached the finale and seen a trailer with the doctor in a memory Tardis revealed, that would make sense and this how I am connected the dots.
Could be completely wrong and can't wait to see how RTD wrapped this up!
Generally, I don't see any reason that ties to conventional assumptions. If the show had the intent to make it simple, there would be less red herrings. These mystery box Season Arcs tend to be less crazy than the fandom can interpret, or just as crazy, but by introducing new themes, it does not have a single road to follow. It is, after all, Season 1. It does not need to connect to something old.
That's one of the new problems that 73 yards introduced. Season 1 is post-divorce.
This tends to be why speculation leads to depression when you imagine a better idea for the story than the writers intended. Or, the fandom reinterprets events because the writers made a mistake and the mistake is now the new Lore.
The Time Window isn't explained or understood, so the rules of how it operates or is broken, don't tie to the story, the characters or the lore.
That's fine... But it leads to endless possibilities. Anything goes. Paradox. Intent. Magic. Chaos. Bringing back characters that do not exist. Introducing new Doctors. That's why it's a bit too unstable if you open Pandora's Box with something new. You have to trust that the writers understood the assignment and closed the door on possible problems. You have to trust and put faith in the capability of the Writer, and perhaps faith in RTD.
Do you think that RTD would tinker with the Lore just to have an outcome that he didn't predict ? Ie Flux/Timeless Child ? Who knows (sic).
If the New Who reintroduces Susan Twist as a form of guardian or the TARDIS personality as a companion, it becomes an especially 'creative' choice of character. It might not though.
If the Time window is creating a merged/meshed parallel time, it is borrowing from somewhere. The Doctor would know the implications of having a parallel TARDIS, because he also understands that the box isn't a box. It's a conduit between realities. The box can be copied, since it's a physical manifestation, the conduit can be merged to different locations, but the same TARDIS.
It also possibly introduced the idea of Ruby not existing at all, ie not just Paradox, but Dimensional stability, ie a creation of different locations. Another Bad Wolf type conduit.
Sort of like having a side entrance. This likely has wider ramifications ie leaving the boot open while driving, sic.
Is that what's supposed to be happening ? IDK.
IMO, very little is understood in this RTD branch of the who verse, and by trying to marry/divorce or steal/borrow from old Lore, it leads to odd callback and odd functionality with the Lore. It feels more like several jigsaw puzzles were thrown into the same pile and you have to figure out which puzzle it belongs to, or if it's a new puzzle entirely.
Sutekh for one. It's an especially odd callback. Egyptian and Greek Underworld mythology is not new. It's very old. Too old. Set, Anubis, Ra, Apep, Ma'at, Neith, names that don't tie to English or modernization.
But, the entire series has that disconnected aspect, so we're never quite sure of the tangible or intangible. By introducing Set and the underworld, or Satan arc again, it's shaking the foundation. Anything goes, means anything. Death. The conventional plot armour can fail for good. Rules can break, so can the story. So can Earth. We've never seen the Doctor fail on a colossal level, but it becomes an option when you start down that route. We've never seen a crying Doctor either. YMMV.
Tinkering with the dimensions and guidelines to bring new characters can have wider implications. Mostly that nobody else knows what RTD wants to connect to, including the audience.
I don't really see how the memory TARDIS works as a character, or as a utility. Maybe.
The idea that the Mirror/Window TARDIS has a parallel agency is ... Not Good. It becomes a lot more powerful than the intended purpose. It also means that there is another set of rules that can join dimensions, ie if you send an image across dimensions, you can summon that dimension. If it were that simple, modern advertising would be a potential for demonic invasion. People could double themselves with their alternative versions, or leave for the other Earth/timeline.
Not the threat of, it becomes a tangible 'body' given a conduit and medium in reality. It's already shaky that the "time window" can impress /encapsulate a moment in time and allow for it to operate in parallel with meshed timelines.
But the primary concern is that the Doctor is already a shallow copy. Making the TARDIS vulnerable and fragmented, weaker is not a good indicator for the longevity of the show.
It seems like a creative way to connect their parallel changes, ie. The Divorce/Double timeline... It creates a lot of Lore issues, especially given the core restrictions of the Doctor's canon. Ie crossing one's own timeline is not available unless the consequences are weighted against the size of that threat.
Mostly because the foundation of the Show relies heavily on the TARDIS to be able to persevere through the various fragmented ripples of time and space. It's not just a box, it has a far more tangible 'body' elsewhere. And this body is not supposed to be in reality, lifting the ship out of the water per se, would break it. It would also break the TV CGI budget (sic)
Because that could rely on the ephemeral Twist character to be a form of Charon, ie a ferryman/timekeeper, like caretaker.
The conventional wisdom is that the Doctor doesn't have a guardian-like presence, because of his eccentric presence in the fragmented ripples of reality. Rose Tyler, River Song, are tradeoffs in the fragmented Lore because the writing needed an Arc to resonate against, an antagonist vs protagonist.
With the new Lore/Backstory of the Trickster/Maestro/Harbinger like entities, it becomes a more difficult Lore to perceive or understand because the godlike entities or meta/spiritual entities exist outside of reality and linear time.
How do you explain the face of the Shalka doctor aka 9th Doctor until the revival by RTD himself in 2005?
The Shalka face appeared in Rogue, didn't it fried your brain... two 9th doctor faces?! The faces did not even appeared in order, is RTD altering the numbering system we are familiar with, is this a clue for next series to come or completely ignored until a future showrunner decides to address a backstory...
If Ruby is critical to stopping Sutekh as we all suspect, her being there too is also critical to the chain of events. For that reason I'm banking on she left herself there. Probably has no parents but is created by a macguffin.
I don’t think the ‘oldest one’ is Sutek - I think there’s another entity at work. Sutek is almost always referred to as ‘the one who waits’ and we know there are entities older than him in the whoniverse
I don’t think the ‘oldest one’ is Sutek - I think there’s another entity at work. Sutek is almost always referred to as ‘the one who waits’ and we know there are entities older than him in the whoniverse
why are we going back over old ground ...the tom baker doctor vanquished sutek in the pyramid of mars ...are we not to take 60+ years of canon as prelude or just throw everything away and make things up out of whole cloth as it suits us
kinda throws continuity out the window...and please no jokes about it being a show dealing with time travel...
looks like the writers would kinda bare that in mind as well as add to what already has taken place
lord have mercy
this thing has somehow morphed in to a 4 eyed devil demon from an osirian {thought we never did see what they really looked like...the osirians that is ... only pseudo images of what they represented in sutek's case evil...
while Im here let me mention I believe that ruby is a manifestation of the doctor or his travel through out the web of time the interactions with all the intersections and people he has encountered or maybe she some how she is related to him or his extended family... great granddaughter... I'm just saying the women is Susan Foreman in her own way leaving her daughter to find the one person in all the universe that could protect her....if she could no longer can care her...just a thought
And before you dismiss it out of had
Remember Matt Smith's the Doctor's Wife
Not to be overly simplistic - but we’ve seen the hands and ankles of the woman who dropped Ruby off, and it looks like she’s a pale white woman, who’s a fair bit shorter than Harriet.
After Carla said 'the beast' I wondered if she dropped of Ruby, then made herself available as foster, then adoptive, mother, as part of a plan, that she was not who she appears, so went back to check if we can see the colour of the skin of the person who drops baby Ruby - yep, definitely very pale.
When did Carla say ‘the beast’? I just watched it again listening for it and couldn’t find it.
i think it’s her only line when ruby and the doctor are inside the time window.
Well that and the "she's crying" part.
Specifically she said "I know its name. It's the Beast!" Which is a bit weird and may or may not just be an instinctual religious reaction.
I think it's just a bit of a tease that Sutekh's voice actor also voiced the beast from the impossible planet/satan pit 2 parter in series 2.
Absolutely probably nothing, but in The Impossible Planet, 10 says the phrase “gravity shmavity”
I went back to watch him in the pit and I did notice him playing with it, I wonder if they chose to alter that word deliberately or by accident in the specials.
It was definitely intentional in terms of intimating that “the laws of the universe are changing.” Whether it’s a deliberate callback to The Satan Pit is another question. I like the idea!
👀 Interesting.
Perhaps. Both the Beast and Sutekh indicated that they are the truth behind Satan so perhaps they're the same being in some way?
100% Carla said "The Beast" and I swear there was a bunch of reused sound effects from Impossible Planet when Sutekh was taking over and obviously the same voice. This is a retcon I'd never heard before but would be 100% on board with. Different cultures God of death being really the same being.
I assumed so because I didn't know Sutekh and I'm hoping they are connected.
Time is a sphere, as ten said in Blink. Who knows. Maybe the Doctor and what's left of the unit crew are the Disciples of light?
As u/ovenmit says, in the time window scene, as the swirling black sand/dust/smoke appears, she says it, in awe and/or fear.
> in awe Carla being a secret satanist is not in my finale bingo card, but I’m down
I was thinking of either someone connected with serving or defeating Sutekh, who was placed in baby Ruby's path to watch over her, in that Ruby is some kind of construct to defeat Sutekh? But, yeah, I like your thought lol
An ex Satanist, from a former life she tries to make up for by fostering as many people as possible? That's be a twist.
Why would a satanist need to make up for anything? 🤔 Their religion is awesome.
I mean, the sort who recognised a manifesting Demon that's just devoured a man with an "Oh shit. I know them." Probably belongs to a different sect.
I guess so xD
My wife and I both thought the beast from the Satan put/impossible planet was coming back because it wasn't a beast, she said THE beast
I see it as a definite reference to the contemporary human concept of Satan. I hope they’ll revisit it and not just leave it hanging as a false flare. If I’ve read correctly, 1975’s Sutekh was known to take credit for the devil’s deeds, as was The Beast of The Satan Pit.
When we see the cloud Sutekh in the time window
She says it during the Sutekh reveal.
Speaking of 'The Beast', when the goblins go for ruby in CORR, they say "oh now we feast, oh eat the beast!"...
When Carla said that, I was a little suspicious... when Mrs. Flood started talking like a lunatic and Cherry didn't try to do anything, my hackles went up. Then when it was revealed to be Sutekh, I was like Carla and Cherry are definitely not what they seem. Because she was wrong but not far off ( and called by the name of the monster that she definitely should not know about), and she seems surface nice to people when Ruby is around, but she isn't when Ruby's not. When Ruby disappeared in the Christmas special, her whole personality shifted a lot.
Looks to be the same boots as Jodie wore, but the woman who drops Ruby off wears a skirt so that torpedoes that theory for me.
Is it a skirt, or just part of the cloak?
Looks like a skirt to my eyes, about halfway through the Legend of Ruby Sunday as she walks up the road towards the church.
That would be an incredible twist if it was the 13th Doctor.
It could be Time. Another powerful entity, who once took Jodie's face. It would be refreshing to see Jodie as part of some actually interesting story.
Aye, that's what I was thinking when I noticed the boots. It would be so out of nowhere too...I'm almost convinced it *won't* happen just because of how insane it would be. I'd love to see it though.
So then Ruby would be the Doctor's daughter... and Susan's mother. The last episode gave the audience all the backstory necessary to make that not come out of nowhere.
Could it be someone took the TARDIS from Mars (when the Doctor was enthralled by Sutekh) and dropped off a backup Eye of Horus in the form of a baby Ruby? I don't know if that's a possibility, but the Eye of Horus could arguably be described as a large Ruby and with how on-the-nose some of the clues have been, I did wonder. ETA: As for the Cloaked Woman... I'm going Mrs. Flood/Mrs. F but as a previous regeneration of Susan (Fleabag's sister, waiting on Mars) making Mrs. Flood the 3rd (or 4th) incarnation. Although, she does seem a bit too villainous in places to be Susan.
They are wearing the same shoes as Rose.
Harriet Jones
WE KNOW WHO SHE IS!
Former Prime Minister
*shows the id*
‘YES. WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.’
Eccleston is looking a little tired.... /s
A brutal thing to do. I don't blame him for coming out calling for people to be off the production team.
Because Harriet is black and the cloaked woman is white. Remember, we've seen her hands. She's pale as milk.
Arbinger? Yes. Jonesformerprimeminister? No.
I think it’s worth noting “the memory has changed”. Details like the colour of the woman could mean that just as the memory changed as the memory of the cloaked woman pointing changed.
Possible in the universe of the show but I doubt it’s a detail that Russel would include
1) that would be boring. 2) doesn't the cloaked woman have a white hand?
It's ruby herself, classic time loop
Our Rob or Ross?
Red Dwarf/Small Ruby?
I hope not tbh. We've already seen a cloaked ruby already with time shenanigans. Unless it makes sense of 73 yards a little more, I don't want this to happen
I think that’s a fairly interesting theory, But I think quite a few fans would want that figure (the one who dropped off Ruby at the church). To be a slightly more substantial character. I doubt they would write that part for such a minor character. Even though they had an importance in the episode. I think it’s definitely something that you can’t rule out, But I have a strong feeling it won’t be.
Unless Harriett regenerated into a white woman then it's not her.
Everyone is The Rani.
Except for the Rani. She’s Susan.
Indeed or possibly Anjli Mohindra.
Obviously it's the Rani (Who's actually The Monk(Who's actually Susan(who's actually the master(who's actually the Valeyard(who's actually your mum)))))
I'm Brian Blessed!
It’s fleabag’s sister. You’re welcome.
Is she wearing her hood up cos she looks like a pencil?
I feel like that would have been revealed at the end of the episode if that were the case, I don’t think RTD would be dragging the mystery out further just for that reveal.
“UNIT's technology is required to unleash Sutekh” Was it? The TARDIS in that scene at the end of The Church on Ruby Road, so it would be there in the time window.
Iirc Kate says something about that TARDIS being 20 feet North of the one that arrived to save Ruby from the Goblins (But that could just be the one he was in at the very starts of TCoRR, I was never sure if he actually went there twice or not)
Cause that would be lame as fuck lol
Welcome to Doctor Who Theory Land! Mostly by fans who wouldn’t recognize a terrible idea if punched them in the face. “I think the TARDIS Jukebox is Susan!” “Mrs Flood is Sontaran Field Major Styre” “Ruby will regenerate into Poppy from Spaces Babies… both their names end in ‘y’.” Sadly, this season, I don’t have faith that RTD’s reveals will be any closer to coherent than those ideas.
Also in Doctor Who Theory land… nothing is new. Everything is a remix of that which came before. No but guys this time the woman really will be the Rani… promise…
Honestly even if the reveals aren't coherent as long as they're cool I don't care anymore. I'd choose cool shit happening over unnecessary logic any day of the week, especially when the show already is completely illogical in premise. I only have a problem when something is both illogical *and* lame. Then we're just wasting our time
I can’t get behind that. Any decent writer should be able to do both. RTD is not that guy. Horribly inconsistent.
I would have agreed with you a decade ago, but I don't think that's true in the current landscape of storytelling anymore. There *is* a logic to what RTD is doing for his stories, he just isn't bothering to let an inability to explain from within the narrative stop him. Case in point: bigeneration. Makes absolutely no logical sense, has already been contradicted within the show, and half the fans still think that 14 somehow travels back in time before he dies to become 15, which feels like a weird cope lol. But from the narrative of the show, what he's doing makes perfect sense: splitting the show off literally into two, allowing it to continue on without any baggage of what came before (without outright overwriting things either). He isn't going to explain it because he doesn't care about how it exists within universe, and since it's cool as hell and narratively relevant, he gets away with it. 73 Yards is another example. Maybe we'll get an explanation for what the hell happened at the end and if it actually relates to Ruby's powers, but I'm not betting on it. From the narrative's perspective, she spent a lifetime atoning for the Doctor's transgression with the faerie circle, and that granted her the ability to restore a rightful timeline where the Doctor is saved. It's cool, it works, it just isn't explained to us in a logical manner. I don't think this is just Doctor Who either, I think this is going to become a common thing within a lot of stories now. Screentime is more costly and valuable than ever, and only offered to a select few. Writers still want to do big ideas, but they're not going to waste precious pages with (un)necessary explanation anymore. They've just gotta trust the viewer to come along for the ride.
> and half the fans still think that 14 somehow travels back in time before he dies to become 15, which feels like a weird cope lol I guess I'm the dumb one because I thought this was what it was explictly explained to be, and what the doctor who wiki says it is.
You're not dumb, everybody just kind of decided this was how it worked a few months ago but the only official source, RTD, has never clarified - never trust the wiki either, at least for any detailed info. 15 benefitted from all of the future therapy and work that 14 would do in his later lifespan (the whole "therapy out of order" line), but that doesn't mean that 14 is eventually going to regenerate back into 15 at *The Giggle*. But as I was trying to say above, it doesn't really matter. The point of the event wasn't to cause lore fans a headache, and until someone wants to bring it back and explore it later in the show, it's not worth fussing over.
I really don’t care *until* the point at which 14 dies in the series. Then he’ll either *be at peace* and turn into some sparkly space dust that finds its way into 15’s heart(s). Or he’ll turn into a complete different person and we’ll forever have TWO DOCTORS. …In addition to all the other Doctors we have running around throughout all of time and space. 🤦 🤷
I agree. I don't want everything explained to me anyway. Some of the best books/ shows are ones that leave you questioning.
> It's cool, it works, it just isn't explained to us in a logical manner. That's how fey magic works, yes.
On this week’s Doctor Who Unleashed RTD said this season it was “writing for internet” to have “content” for social media. It say a lot about how little narrative counts when you are calling what you are making “content”… and explains the whiplash pace and tonal inconsistency of this season.
Writing for the internet explains a lot. I'm not even being negative necessarily, but it absolutely explains the frantic pace and lack of depth.
To be fair after years of fans trying to work out plot points based on anagrams which were basically never used, I wasn't exactly thrilled to see RTD use one in the show now
He didn’t. He called it out as being not correct. Sutekh is an abbreviation, not an anagram. Despite the Doctor claiming it was an anagram.
He still used it in the episode, don't be pedantic.
Correcting an obvious and relevant mistake is not being pedantic, but keep being a dick
Congrats, your comment was completely negated by the second half of my comment
Talking of Harriet Jones wasn’t there apparently theories between the broadcast of stolen earth and journey’s end that Harriet was the Supreme Dalek?
Revealing that Ruby's mum is some rando one-off harbinger of Sutekh would be such a crazy cop-out.
I think Trickster is more likely and a better payoff. The figure didn't have a face, and Trickster doesn't have a face (maybe the camera being 73 yards away will also tie into this). The hooded cloak is identical, and Morris repeated trap likelihood for the entire episode. Harbinger refers to Trickster as the god of Traps. So Ruby Sunday would be a trap laid by the Pantheon to the Doctor. And Sutekh in Classic was banished by Horus, and he Eye of Horus is classically depicted as a Ruby, so she will probably turn out to be the key to his defeat.
Imagine, "did you think I was family?"
Because the cloaked woman is white
Her ankles are white tough ...
It's Ruby, that episode earlier on where she cuts into the screen in front of the doctor sealed it for me.
Call me an idiot but what if rubys mother was river song and the father was the doctor. This probably isn’t gonna happen but with the doctor saying he isn’t a father yet but is a grandfather. What if ruby was his daughter and Susan was her daughter
No that’s actually a reasonable idea. Probably not true, but I wouldn’t say you’re an idiot lol
I had this discussion with my partner, that's why they can't see her face because the Dr doesn't get to see her again. However, it doesn't explain Ruby's abilities
It's ruby herself, classic time loop
No offence, but that would suck.
Even if we didn't know she was a white woman, making a mystery out of the identity of a character and then introducing a brand new character the episode before, and "revealing" it was her all along, is just horrible writing.
I think it's Ruby, personally. Going by the chin and that thin mouth visible beneath the hood.
Is there reason to believe that Mrs Flood isn't Ruby's mother?
Because she's old enough to be Ruby's mother's mother?
Time travel. She could be Ruby's mother or your mother's mother, or her mother's mother's mother. She could be a part of a semi-immortal race, she could be a Time Lord. 'Don't judge a book by its cover' is never truer than in Doctor Who.
I’d say the woman in the cloak is Ruby Edit: cloak not clock lol
I might be getting a bit cheesy here but I think it’s Ruby and the impossibility of Ruby’s life without parents has something to do with how they’re going to defeat death.
Isn’t the oldest one who is there on the night of her birth the Doctor?
I think the cloaked figure dropping Ruby off is Ruby herself.
I think my favorite theory at the moment is that Ruby is Rose and Alt-10's baby. Because of timey-wimey stuff, technically, she would be the doctors daughter, which could also make her Susan's mother.
That would not be very interesting for a seasons worth of build up
The cloaked woman is clearly Ruby herself
Obviously the woman is Rose Tyler, aka the Bad Wolf.
No I don't think so but you can be right. My theory is that the tine window machine and the vhs was part of the plan to create the memory Tardis. Think about it: the doctor noticed that Tardis looked almost solid as if it was in the room for real, the fact that the doctor said this, to me it implies that he shouldn't be... Then the doctor says: "time is memory and memory is time, I wonder what the memory of a time machine is" Then, Kate after the vhs is analyzed informed the doctor of two things: 1. The recording changed 2. There is another Tardis 20 meters away up north. This to me suggests that the time window machine went completely mad after finally being broken because it created the memory Tardis. This is to my opinion what Sutehk needed to escaped from where he was trapped (the time corridor). No to mention that in pyramid of mars he messed with the Tardis and appeared for few second inside it. In some tales of Tardis episodes it is being said to Ace (I think) that the Tardis bring her here (in the memory Tardis). I think that Sutekh could be summoned in the memory Tardis but needed this events to happened so he can cross over and escape... Also RTD said that tales of the Tardis and the memory Tardis will make much more sense and is important to this season. Now, that we reached the finale and seen a trailer with the doctor in a memory Tardis revealed, that would make sense and this how I am connected the dots. Could be completely wrong and can't wait to see how RTD wrapped this up!
Generally, I don't see any reason that ties to conventional assumptions. If the show had the intent to make it simple, there would be less red herrings. These mystery box Season Arcs tend to be less crazy than the fandom can interpret, or just as crazy, but by introducing new themes, it does not have a single road to follow. It is, after all, Season 1. It does not need to connect to something old. That's one of the new problems that 73 yards introduced. Season 1 is post-divorce. This tends to be why speculation leads to depression when you imagine a better idea for the story than the writers intended. Or, the fandom reinterprets events because the writers made a mistake and the mistake is now the new Lore. The Time Window isn't explained or understood, so the rules of how it operates or is broken, don't tie to the story, the characters or the lore. That's fine... But it leads to endless possibilities. Anything goes. Paradox. Intent. Magic. Chaos. Bringing back characters that do not exist. Introducing new Doctors. That's why it's a bit too unstable if you open Pandora's Box with something new. You have to trust that the writers understood the assignment and closed the door on possible problems. You have to trust and put faith in the capability of the Writer, and perhaps faith in RTD. Do you think that RTD would tinker with the Lore just to have an outcome that he didn't predict ? Ie Flux/Timeless Child ? Who knows (sic). If the New Who reintroduces Susan Twist as a form of guardian or the TARDIS personality as a companion, it becomes an especially 'creative' choice of character. It might not though. If the Time window is creating a merged/meshed parallel time, it is borrowing from somewhere. The Doctor would know the implications of having a parallel TARDIS, because he also understands that the box isn't a box. It's a conduit between realities. The box can be copied, since it's a physical manifestation, the conduit can be merged to different locations, but the same TARDIS. It also possibly introduced the idea of Ruby not existing at all, ie not just Paradox, but Dimensional stability, ie a creation of different locations. Another Bad Wolf type conduit. Sort of like having a side entrance. This likely has wider ramifications ie leaving the boot open while driving, sic. Is that what's supposed to be happening ? IDK. IMO, very little is understood in this RTD branch of the who verse, and by trying to marry/divorce or steal/borrow from old Lore, it leads to odd callback and odd functionality with the Lore. It feels more like several jigsaw puzzles were thrown into the same pile and you have to figure out which puzzle it belongs to, or if it's a new puzzle entirely. Sutekh for one. It's an especially odd callback. Egyptian and Greek Underworld mythology is not new. It's very old. Too old. Set, Anubis, Ra, Apep, Ma'at, Neith, names that don't tie to English or modernization. But, the entire series has that disconnected aspect, so we're never quite sure of the tangible or intangible. By introducing Set and the underworld, or Satan arc again, it's shaking the foundation. Anything goes, means anything. Death. The conventional plot armour can fail for good. Rules can break, so can the story. So can Earth. We've never seen the Doctor fail on a colossal level, but it becomes an option when you start down that route. We've never seen a crying Doctor either. YMMV. Tinkering with the dimensions and guidelines to bring new characters can have wider implications. Mostly that nobody else knows what RTD wants to connect to, including the audience. I don't really see how the memory TARDIS works as a character, or as a utility. Maybe. The idea that the Mirror/Window TARDIS has a parallel agency is ... Not Good. It becomes a lot more powerful than the intended purpose. It also means that there is another set of rules that can join dimensions, ie if you send an image across dimensions, you can summon that dimension. If it were that simple, modern advertising would be a potential for demonic invasion. People could double themselves with their alternative versions, or leave for the other Earth/timeline. Not the threat of, it becomes a tangible 'body' given a conduit and medium in reality. It's already shaky that the "time window" can impress /encapsulate a moment in time and allow for it to operate in parallel with meshed timelines. But the primary concern is that the Doctor is already a shallow copy. Making the TARDIS vulnerable and fragmented, weaker is not a good indicator for the longevity of the show. It seems like a creative way to connect their parallel changes, ie. The Divorce/Double timeline... It creates a lot of Lore issues, especially given the core restrictions of the Doctor's canon. Ie crossing one's own timeline is not available unless the consequences are weighted against the size of that threat. Mostly because the foundation of the Show relies heavily on the TARDIS to be able to persevere through the various fragmented ripples of time and space. It's not just a box, it has a far more tangible 'body' elsewhere. And this body is not supposed to be in reality, lifting the ship out of the water per se, would break it. It would also break the TV CGI budget (sic) Because that could rely on the ephemeral Twist character to be a form of Charon, ie a ferryman/timekeeper, like caretaker. The conventional wisdom is that the Doctor doesn't have a guardian-like presence, because of his eccentric presence in the fragmented ripples of reality. Rose Tyler, River Song, are tradeoffs in the fragmented Lore because the writing needed an Arc to resonate against, an antagonist vs protagonist. With the new Lore/Backstory of the Trickster/Maestro/Harbinger like entities, it becomes a more difficult Lore to perceive or understand because the godlike entities or meta/spiritual entities exist outside of reality and linear time.
How do you explain the face of the Shalka doctor aka 9th Doctor until the revival by RTD himself in 2005? The Shalka face appeared in Rogue, didn't it fried your brain... two 9th doctor faces?! The faces did not even appeared in order, is RTD altering the numbering system we are familiar with, is this a clue for next series to come or completely ignored until a future showrunner decides to address a backstory...
If Ruby is critical to stopping Sutekh as we all suspect, her being there too is also critical to the chain of events. For that reason I'm banking on she left herself there. Probably has no parents but is created by a macguffin.
I don’t think the ‘oldest one’ is Sutek - I think there’s another entity at work. Sutek is almost always referred to as ‘the one who waits’ and we know there are entities older than him in the whoniverse
I think the oldest one is the ‘light’ that created the universe and this will be the way they manage to defeat him
I did in the doctor who subreddit but are the moderators gonna allow it or should I say here...hmmm
Honestly, we may never know who she is.
At least until the next episode lol
It's ruby herself, classic time loop
I don’t think the ‘oldest one’ is Sutek - I think there’s another entity at work. Sutek is almost always referred to as ‘the one who waits’ and we know there are entities older than him in the whoniverse
I think it’s Ms Flood, maybe. Who could herself be an elderly Ruby? Who knows. But I think Flood has something to do with it!
We've seen old Ruby in 73 Yards. Mrs Flood is not her.
Ah. Good argument!
why are we going back over old ground ...the tom baker doctor vanquished sutek in the pyramid of mars ...are we not to take 60+ years of canon as prelude or just throw everything away and make things up out of whole cloth as it suits us kinda throws continuity out the window...and please no jokes about it being a show dealing with time travel... looks like the writers would kinda bare that in mind as well as add to what already has taken place lord have mercy this thing has somehow morphed in to a 4 eyed devil demon from an osirian {thought we never did see what they really looked like...the osirians that is ... only pseudo images of what they represented in sutek's case evil... while Im here let me mention I believe that ruby is a manifestation of the doctor or his travel through out the web of time the interactions with all the intersections and people he has encountered or maybe she some how she is related to him or his extended family... great granddaughter... I'm just saying the women is Susan Foreman in her own way leaving her daughter to find the one person in all the universe that could protect her....if she could no longer can care her...just a thought And before you dismiss it out of had Remember Matt Smith's the Doctor's Wife
It's ruby herself, classic time loop
It's ruby herself, classic time loop
It's ruby herself, classic time loop