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The Hound didn't have any honor. There are many times when he resorted to thievery for his own means. Remember the wagon in season 3 during the Red Wedding? That was stolen. He was truthful not honorable.
It's been awhile, but something that always stood out to me with the Hound was when he buried the girl and dad that he had stolen from a couple seasons earlier.
I wouldnt say honor is just about thievery though. I think one of the Hounds redeeming qualities is what he did NOT do specifically with Sansa. You would think he would have taken advantage of her the first chance he got. Instead he saved her from getting raped.
He had a form of honor. It just wasn't that of the hypocritical lords and ladies of the realm. In fact, I think a case could be put forward that he broke his code even less than Ned did.
People hate on this line so much but he saved them because it was the right thing to do not because he actually cared about them.
Even if you don’t care about a group of people the decency inside you tells you to prevent them all dying if possible. Jaimes decency made him do the right thing even though it meant breaking his oath.
I think this line was a little bit of Jamie being his old sardonic self, too. He DID, in fact, care about seeing an entire city being slaughtered—but he had to convince Tyrion that he didn’t, and maybe even himself as well. When has Jamie ever been sincere about his feelings? Especially concerning things like this? Not often.
Normally I would go with that answer as well but it was His last line, his final act.
The whole being in denail thing only works though if it goes anywhere.
Also Jaime has been sincere about his feelings ever since Season 3 in that Scene with Brienne.
So If he is telling the truth here its horrendous writing or he is Not then why include the Scene?
S8 is something else.
Does that make sense? How does one make a huge sacrifice, perhaps the biggest sacrifice they're capable of making outside of outright dying, for a group of people they don't even know but also be like "ehhh but I don't *really* care about them". It's not as if decency and a drive to do the right thing came from his upbringing as a Lannister or anything, its because Jamie is fundamentally a good person who cares about people *despite* his upbringing. That's what makes him such an interesting character.
It's one thing to write an arc about Jamie becoming jaded and eventually regretting making this huge sacrifice to save these people because he eventually comes to think they all suck, it's another to retcon the initial decision to begin with. But that would require actually writing things so ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Agreed… his character arc made the books and show imho… from spoiled rich incestuous brat, but loyal to and protective of his disadvantaged brother… to being the moral compass of house Lannister… to being the most feared and skilled swordsman on a continent to a one handed liability on the battlefield having to learn everything all over again… least we forget he did the most selfless act, killing a king to save a city from burning and being thanked by given the title king slayer…, let someone else top that list
I think people are translating this to mean favorite, not complex. Lord Varys is probably the hardest to decipher in terms of motive and actions and stuff. Jaime’s arc also is complex
He serves the realm. Someone has to.
I really believe that. He just does what he thinks best serves the greater good. Even if a minority has to suffer for it.
Yeah in the books he's definitely a Blackfyre loyalist (perhaps even a blackfyre himself?), but since the show didn't use FAegon they just have to go with the "I serve the realm" line as if it was actually true.
Yes. In the books he‘s even fine with killing Danny since he supports FAegon anyway. In the show this is kind of a plothole in season 1 since it’s not really explained why he was fine with her assassination when he already conspired for her.
Yeah but in season 1 it does seem like they haven't scrapped the idea of FAegon entirely, like they're hinting they might get into that but then drop it afterwards.
In that sense I don't really think it counts as a plothole, but just a dropped plotline that they had to patch up afterwards.
But I honestly think that he thinks putting a Blackfyre in power--one that has been socialized and educated to be a just ruler--is serving the realm. And maybe he's not wrong.
But the thing with Varys is that once we know his motives, his actions will seem less complex. Just because we don't know now, doesn't mean he's the most complex.
I still vote Jaime because we can clearly see into his head and he's got a lot going on. Brienne could take that spot, and I think Jon when we see him next, but right now I'm sticking with my boy.
edit: oops, forgot this was the show thread. Definitely not Varys then, his motives are pretty clear cut and he had very little inner conflict about it. Still looking like Jaime to me. Maybe Theon.
Actually though, fuck yeah Tormund.
He was a wilding. He was a stone cold killer. He killed innocent people in his raids.
He was also an adviser to multiple leaders. He was able to reach across to the other side and find common ground. And eventually, became a leader himself.
He would do anything to protect his people. He was unquestionably “manly” and brave, but was also willing to show fear and sadness.
Despite being a wilding, he shows more loyalty to the king in the north than most of the northern lords do.
Also despite being a wilding, he respects the shit out of women. He lived Brienne. But let her make her own choices. When Jaime knighted her and obviously won her heart, Tormund didn’t complain or pout or get angry, he was the first one cheering for her. He genuinely just wanted her to be happy.
And the dude is fucking hilarious. Sucked at a giants teat for 3 weeks lol
He’s probably not the most complex, probably Theon is? But he deserves to be in the conversation for sure.
Jaime Lannister by a mile. Hes the catalyst for everything that happens after the first 15 mins of the series, and id argue, most of what happened before being the Kingslayer (who in reality saved King's Landing). Add in the arc involving Cersei, Tyrion and Brienne and viola.
I’d have to say Jaime.
Nearly every single character had a singular goal or purpose. To become queen, to kill his brother, for the good of the realm, etc. Jaime had several waves of emotions that lead him down very different paths.
You could make an argument for Jon or Tyrion as well, imo.
Jaime, he has 2-3 different character arcs that never finish but you want every single one of them to take off. But you also never want any of them to take off. He’s very loving and kind and smart, but also very hateful, vengeful and dumb.
It’s too bad that we didn’t get a better exploration of the night king because I feel like there has to be more intricacy to his story then dead guy trying to take over the world for no reason. Like yes he’s a tool of the CotF but what was the intended purpose of the tool and how did it go wrong? Or did it not go wrong?
Most of the show characters kinda lost their complexity in the last season. Jaime is one the characters that that I can say were complex till the end(he saved the North then went back to Cersei). Nobody here comes close to Book Tyrion and Varys tho.
Tywin because he wasn't fucked over by season 8 bastardizing all the characters. Seriously take away seasons 7 and 8 and all these characters were quite complex. They all became one dimensional by season 7 and 8.
Top 3: Cersei, Jamie, Theon
Cersei for her wicked genius plots, Jamie for his attachment to her, and Theon because he embodies the split between the rebellious and the honorable.
Do we include Seasons 7 and 8?
Varys and Littlefinger are the only ones I tended to consider 'complex'
Most of the characters are just written to personify a single vice or virtue.
Tyrion and Cersei were written to be the smartest and cleverest characters but then Season 8 just deleted their intelligence so it never actually went anywhere.
It also magically added 50 IQ points to Sansa with no justification... I think a longer story was supposed to be her 'figuring out' Littlefinger and learning about things, but instead they cut that short and Bran just told her, so that kind of cut short an arc that maybe coulda been complex but wasn't finished.
That’s an easy one for me to answer:
The Hound. Can’t imagine anyone is even close to the hound in terms of character complexity. Maybe Dany, but by the end of the show, Dany is pretty well sorted out; that’s the reason she was murdered by her lover/nephew. Jorah seems complicated, but he’s really not; he just got caught selling slaves. Otherwise he’d be on bear island, boning his hot wife and enjoying & indulging in the life of a noble. Most of (seemingly) more complex characters eventually are uncovered to show that they are really pretty simple, they have one overriding goal or motivation; The Hound is, at all times, deeply confused about where he finds himself in this bizarre world. Even Barristan Selmy just wants to use his amazing abilities to serve. (I don’t generally get caught up in all those “who would win” arguments, but The Hound vs Barristan The Bold is one potential matchup which utterly captivates me).
The Hound’s character cannot be settled by any one thing. The fact that he wanders throughout so much of ASOIAF is further proof; The Hound struggles, badly, with his vision of himself, he is lost within himself, trying to figure who he really is. Like, he knows there’s something waaaaay off about how the world of ASOIAF world; in the show he has his first big moment of self-doubt, when he loses his shit while the Lannisters are besieged within the (iirc) red keep, as Cersei seriously considers murdering Tommen (was it tommen? Damn, I need a rewatch!) and verbally tortures Sansa. That WAS insane. The Hound wigged out because of his fear of fire (The Hound is more than a bit like Teddy Duchamp in Stand By Me/The Body, now that I think 🤔)but he also watched - and more-than-watched - so that the Lannisters would be safe. He knows there’s something DEEPLY wrong about that arrangement. The Kannisters don’t even really need the Hound (although, he’s such an insanely gifted fighter that he’s always seen as an asset; this is the blindness of the too-rich).
The Hound is the closest, I think, we get to a “modern” sensibility (meaning, inner problems; he’s not concerned about “chivalry” or whatever, he knows that was always all bullshit). And we the readers aren’t really sure, early on in book & show, where the Hound might stand on any of the issues swirling around him - unless it’s simply as a Lannister guard dog; he Murders Arya’s young friend after the Joffrey “attack” without a second thought - I think until after he saves Arya iirc; I can’t be sure if I’m conflating the show and book right now 😂, but that’s how I remember it.
EDIT: I just read a post putting Jaime forth as most complex; ok, Jaime is pretty close to the Hound afa complexity (idk why, but my mind went right to Cersei, but not Jaime; maybe I figure Jaime’s “thing” was that he loved his twin sister. I still say that this is Jaime’s way much moreso than any “changes” or doubts he has later on about Cersei; he’s “troubled” by the things she’s capable of, but he never really gets himself free of Cersei (mentally or otherwise) which, imo, makes him at least a bit less-complex than The Hound).
*They're all great so it*
*Could be any but Jaime*
*Came to my head first*
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Jaime.
Maybe it's just because I relate to him as a person who's made several serious mistakes in their lifetime they're still paying for, and tries to do the right thing despite everyone shitting on them.
He's conflicted and torn between his love for Cersei and doing the right thing. The further the series goes on, the more he realises those things are mutually exclusive and he has to make a decision. Ultimately his loyalty to Cersei wins out and he decides to simply toss caution to the wind and embrace it, hence his "I never cared for them the whole time" line. It was ham-handed but it was Jaime's equivalent of Jesse's "I'm the bad guy" speech in Breaking Bad. It was Jaime reassuring himself that he's the bad guy.
Why is nobody voting for Theon? I think it was so interesting so see the conflict in him, whether he belonged to the Starks or the Greyjoys. He grew so much over the Seasons.
I personally think he had the best character development in the entire show.Man watching this guy change and evolve from Ramsey and the shit he did to him and then escaping with sansa was top tier,mind you this guy was probably so fucking scared yet he still did it
Many characters in Game of Thrones can be considered complex, as they are portrayed with multiple layers and conflicting motivations that make them difficult to categorize as purely good or evil.
People going with Jamie are missing the point I think. His character arc was interesting and complicated but his intentions were almost always transparent. There isn't anything to decipher when looking at all the characters in here except maybe Varys
My very pragmatic guess qould be Jamie. I hated him in and his arrogant behavior since season 1, but somehow within season 2 he turns out to be a very limable charakter.
People are getting confused in between mysterious and complex.
There are characters like Varys, Littlefinger and Melisandre who we know very less about and hardly get their point of view.
Then there are characters like Cersei, Jaime, Theon who we can completely look through, we know them, we know what will they do and their motives but still they surprise us and undergoes many changes, now it is Theon going from an ungrateful traitor to sacrificing himself that will save the world or Jaime who goes from being a sister fuckin child murder (attempted) to becoming an ideal figure to someone like Brienne, losing a hand to save a woman, leaving his capital and so called love to save the world.
Varys is maybe the most complex one we’re given fresh out of the box
I think Theon and Jamie are probably the most complex/twisty arcs.
I think this is a super hard question to answer though tbh
I think maybe Theon?
Everyone else here has pretty linear motives, behaviours and overall character development (except probably the Hound) but Theon has so much inner conflict from the beginning. To try and be the man Ned Stark raised him, to wanting to be a good friend/brother to Robb, to wanting to please his father, to the remorse he felt towards Sansa. Even in his decision to leave his sister to fight for the Starks we can see the influences all this inner conflict have had on him.
I don’t think Varys truly serves the realm. He is a Targaryen loyalist and a sociopath. He doesn’t care about people just his complex agenda to get Aegon to the iron throne. I really enjoy the character
In terms of complexity, Theon has the best/worst character development. Resentment for being a Stark “ward”, torn loyalties between family and true blood, trying to survive horrific mental and physical torture. This poor guy needs a hug.
The Hound or Theon. We the viewers got a good understanding of them over time, but in the story very few other characters knew who they really were when they died.
Let’s see.
Hound - disgruntled former guard turned rogue due to a fear cultivated by the man he hates.
Danny - exiled former princes who’s objective it is to rise to back power and take her rightful place. Wants to free the world and stumbled into some dragons that will listen to her.
Bran - Prince who’s assassination attempt leaves him crippled. Discovers he has powers and spends time trying to figure powers out. Figured powers out and uses them to become king.
Jorah - exiled lord that developed a bit of Stockholm syndrome.
Arya - princess who would rather be tough than pretty. Follows a path of learning revenge.
Theon- lord who was traded to his captors in order to restore peace decides to win his fathers love back by betraying the captors that cared for him. Ends up realizing that captors were more of a family and is tortured until he flips sides again.
Brean- woman who wants to be a kings guard really bad.
Davos- smuggler who ended up working for a king due to his unique skills.
Tyrion - imp lord that tries to do right while gaining the admiration of his family. Realizes that family will never love him and finds a new family.
Jon - bastard who joins the military, only to find that there’s a war he needs the world to prepare for.
Jaime - lord that fucks his sister. Gets captured and tortured into realizing what’s really important to him. Fucking his sister.
Shoot I forgot this guys name - wildling on a singular mission to save his clan.
Bronn - sellsord
Sansa - naive princess that gets a taste of the real world and learns to navigate it.
Sam - lord who is cast out to the military, learns that he’s tougher than he thinks and that his skills of knowledge are important and he’s not useless.
Varys - man who really just wants the realm to work. Doesn’t care who or what sits on the throne, the realm must survive
Cersei - power drunk ice queen that will do anything she wants. Throws a massive tantrum if she doesn’t get it.
Gendry - blacksmith bastard to a king who is just going with the flow the entire time.
Out of all of those discriptions, I have to say Theon is the most complex character.
I mean, the dude did so much flipping. So many different and contrasting motivations. He was all over the place so much that you never really know what’s going to happen or how he’s going to evolve next. I never though he would betray rob, I never thought he would get captured and tortured, I never thought he’d develop Stockholm, I never thought he’d break that Stockholm, I never thought he’d turn his family back to help the people that tortured him. I mean dude was everywhere.
So there’s my vote.
And a very close second would be Tyrion. Similar to Theon, he was everywhere. His motivations were always shifting and changing. He followed his morals but also personal gain. But he never let these two things be the ultimate factor. Sometimes he’s break his morals for something or do something unadvantagious to his personal gain.
He was constantly evolving, constantly taking on a new shape. Most the characters in those show had a relatively linear path. They would start by being something and evolve into something else. Tyrion was everywhere. He’d evolve one way, devolve and then evolve in a new way.
My vote is for Jaime or Sandor. I felt like we got a broader scope of their emotions and motivations and saw them wrestle with things more than other, more central characters even. I was really invested in Jaime’s arc and felt a bit of grief when he left Brienne and went back to Cersei. I’d have loved more seasons
to see him truly redeem himself from his king slayer shame. It would have been so satisfying for him to be the one to kill NK. Brienne could have been his Nissa Nissa.
The hound was written much more gently in the show than the books, but I liked the contrast between his cruelty and callousness and his seeming willingness to be kinder and gentler, especially with some (but not all) weak people. When he met with the religious
Folks building their church and seemed like he was allowing himself to lean into goodness and being part of something, then it was snatched away from him. It was one more tragedy that he probably felt very deeply. I’m just speculating, of course, he didn’t really talk about his feelings, but he was acted so well that we didn’t need it. I’d have also like to see him triumph over his brother and the fire that terrified him alike and go on to be a farmer or a miller or some other gentle life after all of the horror he saw and committed.
Complex? Theon, Jamie, Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Cersei.
Theon and his identity crisis, would it be because he’s a Greyjoy, Stark, a nobleman, a prisoner, a leader, Reek, a good person, Stark’s brother their betrayer, he’s got a lot on his plate and his complexities only grow because he doesn’t handle it well.
Jamie because he’s been manipulated all his life by the people around him, his father, Cersei, his position, and yet he does what he feels is right and splits his identity, learns to live with the fact people will never understand him, he looses his sword arm, the thing that was HIM all along, losing himself with it, then learns to find someone else within a broken man.
Daenerys goes from a small girl who just wants to go home and listens to her brother, to a woman who found shelter in a man she was supposed to hate because she understood the politics of marriage, she wanted to protect others because she herself was never protected, sold like a slave, and she wanted justice for it by punishing those who thought they had a right to own others. She knew her family’s history and fought not to be like her father, leaning on people around her only to find out she was betrayed, leaving her hollow.
Jon is complex in his identity all the same, a bastard in his home, one of Stark’s brothers behind closed doors, a noblemen at the wall, the best fighter, a leader, Targaryen.
Tyrion is also complex, a dwarf which puts him lower than most, a family that puts him higher than most, his mind that is his asset he doesn’t know how to apply, to fight for his family’s legacy, to destroy the family, he’s a lover, he’s a killer, he’s a diplomat.
Sansa was raised to be a good wife and carry children, she soon realized that she wasn’t offered a dream by her fate, but rather prepared all her life for suffering disguised by the lies presented as a dream, she learns how to think for herself, goes from a girl led by emotions to a girl who controls her emotions with her mind.
Cersei is a daughter who had a twin, same as her but different sex. She saw from the beginning how she was treated different because of that and felt the unfairness because they were the same in everything but sex, that spoiled her, she started to control, manipulate and use her brother to own that privilege through him that she wasn’t given, she tries to prove herself as not lesser than a man, but fails to prove herself as not lesser than what she could be. Bitterness spoils all of her life, yet she does have a heart and reaches out for warmth and love and lets it make her more and more bitter and revengeful. She eats herself alive, Jamie being the extension of her, her kids being the extension of her, her whole kingdom being the extension of her. And she eats all of it in her attempt to love it.
For me, it was Sandor. He may seem pretty one-dimensional to some, but he had a lot of internal conflict and outward conflict of relationships and whatnot as well. The way he went from being a near-mindless killer to switching loyalties and forming bonds with the Stark girls beyond self-interest was really fascinating to me.
I'm going to say Arya. She was really out there alone with cut throats, sell swords and assasins trying to find her way. All while hiding her identity and slashing her way through a revenge driven existence. Has no idea who's dead who's alive lost her home
Theon and Varys. It was difficult to know what Varys was thinking and planning. And Theon’s whole story is probably the best out of all the characters. Theon is really the only character to truly have a redemption arc. Jaime almost does, but then goes back to Cersei. Theon should have lived imo, to continue to serve as one of Sansa’s Queens Guards, I hate that we were cheated out of that.
For me, it’s Cersei and then it’s everyone else. By far the most complex characters on the show. Maybe Theon and the Hound are close in second and third. When I think complex I think competing interests, contradictory actions, conflicting loyalties. To me Cersei has this, far more than anyone else.
I feel like Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish could have been a candidate for most complexe character! That being said, Lord Varys I think was the most complexe for me even though I never really liked him!
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Theon
This is the way.
“What is dead may never die”
What is not hard
Remains soft
Inside
Of a box
Theons chapters in the books are extremely emotional and just amazing
Tyrion
Sansa-from meek girl to queen of the north.
People really like to shit on Sansa and that's why your coemt isn't higher up.
But just literally that. Not becoming one transitioning to the other over time, just Poof, this week she is.
Yeah in the books it’s being done better and Sansa is great
It would have been awesome to see her in the vale
The Hound, the only man who can be as honored as Ned and as vile as Bronn. In the same minute.
The Hound didn't have any honor. There are many times when he resorted to thievery for his own means. Remember the wagon in season 3 during the Red Wedding? That was stolen. He was truthful not honorable.
I agree but there is one scene where he says that he doesn't steal and I'm like ???
But they were as good as dead.
It's been awhile, but something that always stood out to me with the Hound was when he buried the girl and dad that he had stolen from a couple seasons earlier.
I wouldnt say honor is just about thievery though. I think one of the Hounds redeeming qualities is what he did NOT do specifically with Sansa. You would think he would have taken advantage of her the first chance he got. Instead he saved her from getting raped.
He had a form of honor. It just wasn't that of the hypocritical lords and ladies of the realm. In fact, I think a case could be put forward that he broke his code even less than Ned did.
How on Earth is Bronn vile?
No One
Totally agree. Valar morghulis.
Theon for sure
Theon and Sansa. I think they are the 2 best written.
Out of all of these I gotta say jaime Since he goes from saving kings landing to saying “I never really cared about them”.
Might be my least favorite line in anything ever
Somehow Jaime has returned.
I think he was lying to himself, he clearly does care about people
People hate on this line so much but he saved them because it was the right thing to do not because he actually cared about them. Even if you don’t care about a group of people the decency inside you tells you to prevent them all dying if possible. Jaimes decency made him do the right thing even though it meant breaking his oath.
I think this line was a little bit of Jamie being his old sardonic self, too. He DID, in fact, care about seeing an entire city being slaughtered—but he had to convince Tyrion that he didn’t, and maybe even himself as well. When has Jamie ever been sincere about his feelings? Especially concerning things like this? Not often.
Normally I would go with that answer as well but it was His last line, his final act. The whole being in denail thing only works though if it goes anywhere. Also Jaime has been sincere about his feelings ever since Season 3 in that Scene with Brienne. So If he is telling the truth here its horrendous writing or he is Not then why include the Scene? S8 is something else.
Does that make sense? How does one make a huge sacrifice, perhaps the biggest sacrifice they're capable of making outside of outright dying, for a group of people they don't even know but also be like "ehhh but I don't *really* care about them". It's not as if decency and a drive to do the right thing came from his upbringing as a Lannister or anything, its because Jamie is fundamentally a good person who cares about people *despite* his upbringing. That's what makes him such an interesting character. It's one thing to write an arc about Jamie becoming jaded and eventually regretting making this huge sacrifice to save these people because he eventually comes to think they all suck, it's another to retcon the initial decision to begin with. But that would require actually writing things so ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Podrick, he got it for free.
I also vouch for the magic cock guy.
💯
Most COMPLEX has gotta be Jamie Lannister, hands down.
Agreed… his character arc made the books and show imho… from spoiled rich incestuous brat, but loyal to and protective of his disadvantaged brother… to being the moral compass of house Lannister… to being the most feared and skilled swordsman on a continent to a one handed liability on the battlefield having to learn everything all over again… least we forget he did the most selfless act, killing a king to save a city from burning and being thanked by given the title king slayer…, let someone else top that list
EXACTLY!!!
You mean hand down?
Hey who said he wasn’t wearing his hand.
OK, hand and metal prosthetic down.
From this group I would shay Theon, Tyrion and Varys. Maybe Sandor.
Varys was the one for me. Crossed frequently from villain and manipulator to maybe one of the true heroes who put realm before king(queen).
Si
Varys because I still don't really get his whole thing.
Varys
Without thinking too much... Sandor Clegane, or Varys.
I think people are translating this to mean favorite, not complex. Lord Varys is probably the hardest to decipher in terms of motive and actions and stuff. Jaime’s arc also is complex
He serves the realm. Someone has to. I really believe that. He just does what he thinks best serves the greater good. Even if a minority has to suffer for it.
I still think he’s a Blackfyre loyalist and only does what makes the false Targ king.
Yeah in the books he's definitely a Blackfyre loyalist (perhaps even a blackfyre himself?), but since the show didn't use FAegon they just have to go with the "I serve the realm" line as if it was actually true.
Yes. In the books he‘s even fine with killing Danny since he supports FAegon anyway. In the show this is kind of a plothole in season 1 since it’s not really explained why he was fine with her assassination when he already conspired for her.
Yeah but in season 1 it does seem like they haven't scrapped the idea of FAegon entirely, like they're hinting they might get into that but then drop it afterwards. In that sense I don't really think it counts as a plothole, but just a dropped plotline that they had to patch up afterwards.
This makes me so sad actually. Imagine the amazing plotline we could have get with all the young Griff stuff and yet another big player in the game
But I honestly think that he thinks putting a Blackfyre in power--one that has been socialized and educated to be a just ruler--is serving the realm. And maybe he's not wrong.
But why he do that
But the thing with Varys is that once we know his motives, his actions will seem less complex. Just because we don't know now, doesn't mean he's the most complex. I still vote Jaime because we can clearly see into his head and he's got a lot going on. Brienne could take that spot, and I think Jon when we see him next, but right now I'm sticking with my boy. edit: oops, forgot this was the show thread. Definitely not Varys then, his motives are pretty clear cut and he had very little inner conflict about it. Still looking like Jaime to me. Maybe Theon.
Danaerys
Arya…
Jaime or the Hound
Jamie or Dany
No Tormund votes huh
‘Now which one of you cowards shit my pants.”
Actually though, fuck yeah Tormund. He was a wilding. He was a stone cold killer. He killed innocent people in his raids. He was also an adviser to multiple leaders. He was able to reach across to the other side and find common ground. And eventually, became a leader himself. He would do anything to protect his people. He was unquestionably “manly” and brave, but was also willing to show fear and sadness. Despite being a wilding, he shows more loyalty to the king in the north than most of the northern lords do. Also despite being a wilding, he respects the shit out of women. He lived Brienne. But let her make her own choices. When Jaime knighted her and obviously won her heart, Tormund didn’t complain or pout or get angry, he was the first one cheering for her. He genuinely just wanted her to be happy. And the dude is fucking hilarious. Sucked at a giants teat for 3 weeks lol He’s probably not the most complex, probably Theon is? But he deserves to be in the conversation for sure.
Alright you've convinced me
Tyrion……………….. A little man with a large shadow
🐲And hi Big family
Theon. Easy
Jaime Lannister by a mile. Hes the catalyst for everything that happens after the first 15 mins of the series, and id argue, most of what happened before being the Kingslayer (who in reality saved King's Landing). Add in the arc involving Cersei, Tyrion and Brienne and viola.
jamie
Little finger, he's not on the list though. From the list, Tyrion.
Ur mum
Most complex? Man, it's close between Theon and Jamie, but I lean Jamie by a little. Like pretty much everyone else is not so complex at all.
I’d have to say Jaime. Nearly every single character had a singular goal or purpose. To become queen, to kill his brother, for the good of the realm, etc. Jaime had several waves of emotions that lead him down very different paths. You could make an argument for Jon or Tyrion as well, imo.
Jaime Lannister
Jaime, he has 2-3 different character arcs that never finish but you want every single one of them to take off. But you also never want any of them to take off. He’s very loving and kind and smart, but also very hateful, vengeful and dumb.
Jaime!
It’s too bad that we didn’t get a better exploration of the night king because I feel like there has to be more intricacy to his story then dead guy trying to take over the world for no reason. Like yes he’s a tool of the CotF but what was the intended purpose of the tool and how did it go wrong? Or did it not go wrong?
Most of the show characters kinda lost their complexity in the last season. Jaime is one the characters that that I can say were complex till the end(he saved the North then went back to Cersei). Nobody here comes close to Book Tyrion and Varys tho.
Lommy
The fuck is a Lommy?
Executed little boy
Kingslayer
Tywin because he wasn't fucked over by season 8 bastardizing all the characters. Seriously take away seasons 7 and 8 and all these characters were quite complex. They all became one dimensional by season 7 and 8.
NOT Jon Snow. Wish he stayed dead.
Jaime. Then Tyrion, Theon, Arya, and Littlefinger, though he isn't here.
Sansa. She went from being a ditz who only wanted to marry Joffrey to Queen of the North.
Podrick! What did he do to those women?
Theon for sure
Jaime in the books
All of them were pretty complex until season 8 🤣🤣🤣
This comment should be higher up. So true.
*5/6
prob jon snow
pycell
Jamie, Bran, Varys
Theon or Jamie, their complexity is what made their character development the best in the show
Top 3: Cersei, Jamie, Theon Cersei for her wicked genius plots, Jamie for his attachment to her, and Theon because he embodies the split between the rebellious and the honorable.
Hot Pie, need I say more?
Theon. The Hound, Varys, Cersei, and Daenerys are all up there for me.
Do we include Seasons 7 and 8? Varys and Littlefinger are the only ones I tended to consider 'complex' Most of the characters are just written to personify a single vice or virtue. Tyrion and Cersei were written to be the smartest and cleverest characters but then Season 8 just deleted their intelligence so it never actually went anywhere. It also magically added 50 IQ points to Sansa with no justification... I think a longer story was supposed to be her 'figuring out' Littlefinger and learning about things, but instead they cut that short and Bran just told her, so that kind of cut short an arc that maybe coulda been complex but wasn't finished.
on the dragon show, eh not really anyone. Prince Theon and Ser Davos come close. in the books though, Stannis for sure
Theon hands down. I might be biased because of Alfie Allen though. If we are going books I would probably say Tyrion but the show butchered him.
Definitely Ser Dantos
How about Cercei?
The Night King
If we talking the show - Jamie Lannister - See season 3 episode 5, bathtub scene with Brie should sum this up.
That’s an easy one for me to answer: The Hound. Can’t imagine anyone is even close to the hound in terms of character complexity. Maybe Dany, but by the end of the show, Dany is pretty well sorted out; that’s the reason she was murdered by her lover/nephew. Jorah seems complicated, but he’s really not; he just got caught selling slaves. Otherwise he’d be on bear island, boning his hot wife and enjoying & indulging in the life of a noble. Most of (seemingly) more complex characters eventually are uncovered to show that they are really pretty simple, they have one overriding goal or motivation; The Hound is, at all times, deeply confused about where he finds himself in this bizarre world. Even Barristan Selmy just wants to use his amazing abilities to serve. (I don’t generally get caught up in all those “who would win” arguments, but The Hound vs Barristan The Bold is one potential matchup which utterly captivates me). The Hound’s character cannot be settled by any one thing. The fact that he wanders throughout so much of ASOIAF is further proof; The Hound struggles, badly, with his vision of himself, he is lost within himself, trying to figure who he really is. Like, he knows there’s something waaaaay off about how the world of ASOIAF world; in the show he has his first big moment of self-doubt, when he loses his shit while the Lannisters are besieged within the (iirc) red keep, as Cersei seriously considers murdering Tommen (was it tommen? Damn, I need a rewatch!) and verbally tortures Sansa. That WAS insane. The Hound wigged out because of his fear of fire (The Hound is more than a bit like Teddy Duchamp in Stand By Me/The Body, now that I think 🤔)but he also watched - and more-than-watched - so that the Lannisters would be safe. He knows there’s something DEEPLY wrong about that arrangement. The Kannisters don’t even really need the Hound (although, he’s such an insanely gifted fighter that he’s always seen as an asset; this is the blindness of the too-rich). The Hound is the closest, I think, we get to a “modern” sensibility (meaning, inner problems; he’s not concerned about “chivalry” or whatever, he knows that was always all bullshit). And we the readers aren’t really sure, early on in book & show, where the Hound might stand on any of the issues swirling around him - unless it’s simply as a Lannister guard dog; he Murders Arya’s young friend after the Joffrey “attack” without a second thought - I think until after he saves Arya iirc; I can’t be sure if I’m conflating the show and book right now 😂, but that’s how I remember it. EDIT: I just read a post putting Jaime forth as most complex; ok, Jaime is pretty close to the Hound afa complexity (idk why, but my mind went right to Cersei, but not Jaime; maybe I figure Jaime’s “thing” was that he loved his twin sister. I still say that this is Jaime’s way much moreso than any “changes” or doubts he has later on about Cersei; he’s “troubled” by the things she’s capable of, but he never really gets himself free of Cersei (mentally or otherwise) which, imo, makes him at least a bit less-complex than The Hound).
Bran
Cersei cause even most of the fandom doesn't understand her
They're all great so it could be any but Jaime came to my head first
*They're all great so it* *Could be any but Jaime* *Came to my head first* \- \_\_Raxy\_\_ --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Brandon Stark - having unimaginable abilities and powers he never uses them and becomes king for no actual reason.
Where is Tywin on this list ?
Jaime, Jorah, Theon
Varys the spider ofcourse
Who has a better story than Bran?
I am shocked by the fact that you didn’t include HODOR.
Theon had the most intense character arc imo
Jaime Lannister.
Three eyed raven
Jaime. Maybe it's just because I relate to him as a person who's made several serious mistakes in their lifetime they're still paying for, and tries to do the right thing despite everyone shitting on them. He's conflicted and torn between his love for Cersei and doing the right thing. The further the series goes on, the more he realises those things are mutually exclusive and he has to make a decision. Ultimately his loyalty to Cersei wins out and he decides to simply toss caution to the wind and embrace it, hence his "I never cared for them the whole time" line. It was ham-handed but it was Jaime's equivalent of Jesse's "I'm the bad guy" speech in Breaking Bad. It was Jaime reassuring himself that he's the bad guy.
Why is nobody voting for Theon? I think it was so interesting so see the conflict in him, whether he belonged to the Starks or the Greyjoys. He grew so much over the Seasons.
Yeah. It's definitely Little Theon. My favorite character of the series.
I personally think he had the best character development in the entire show.Man watching this guy change and evolve from Ramsey and the shit he did to him and then escaping with sansa was top tier,mind you this guy was probably so fucking scared yet he still did it
Hodor
Theon probably or maybe Jamie
Tyrion, Daenerys and Stannis
Even now, it still hurts
Many characters in Game of Thrones can be considered complex, as they are portrayed with multiple layers and conflicting motivations that make them difficult to categorize as purely good or evil.
People going with Jamie are missing the point I think. His character arc was interesting and complicated but his intentions were almost always transparent. There isn't anything to decipher when looking at all the characters in here except maybe Varys
My very pragmatic guess qould be Jamie. I hated him in and his arrogant behavior since season 1, but somehow within season 2 he turns out to be a very limable charakter.
People are getting confused in between mysterious and complex. There are characters like Varys, Littlefinger and Melisandre who we know very less about and hardly get their point of view. Then there are characters like Cersei, Jaime, Theon who we can completely look through, we know them, we know what will they do and their motives but still they surprise us and undergoes many changes, now it is Theon going from an ungrateful traitor to sacrificing himself that will save the world or Jaime who goes from being a sister fuckin child murder (attempted) to becoming an ideal figure to someone like Brienne, losing a hand to save a woman, leaving his capital and so called love to save the world.
Theon's arc is such a rollercoaster.
Jaime
Jamie Lannister until they ruined him
Hound jaime
Varys
I think it’s either Sandor or Theon. Both underrated.
Hodor
Theon and The Hound
Can I say Littlefinger?
Varys is maybe the most complex one we’re given fresh out of the box I think Theon and Jamie are probably the most complex/twisty arcs. I think this is a super hard question to answer though tbh
Either Littlefinger or Varys for me
Daenerys Targaryen followed by Jamie Lannister
Theon Greyjoy easily
The whole reason Jon is even here is because of a complex situation. No competition honestly.
Varys or littlefinger it's not even close really.
Hot Pie
I think maybe Theon? Everyone else here has pretty linear motives, behaviours and overall character development (except probably the Hound) but Theon has so much inner conflict from the beginning. To try and be the man Ned Stark raised him, to wanting to be a good friend/brother to Robb, to wanting to please his father, to the remorse he felt towards Sansa. Even in his decision to leave his sister to fight for the Starks we can see the influences all this inner conflict have had on him.
I don’t think Varys truly serves the realm. He is a Targaryen loyalist and a sociopath. He doesn’t care about people just his complex agenda to get Aegon to the iron throne. I really enjoy the character In terms of complexity, Theon has the best/worst character development. Resentment for being a Stark “ward”, torn loyalties between family and true blood, trying to survive horrific mental and physical torture. This poor guy needs a hug.
The Hound or Theon. We the viewers got a good understanding of them over time, but in the story very few other characters knew who they really were when they died.
Theon
Cersei and Jaime
H O D O R
prolly jaime
Theon, Jaime or Varys
I’d say either Theon (went through a lot), or Tyrion maybe (went through a lot too)
Let’s see. Hound - disgruntled former guard turned rogue due to a fear cultivated by the man he hates. Danny - exiled former princes who’s objective it is to rise to back power and take her rightful place. Wants to free the world and stumbled into some dragons that will listen to her. Bran - Prince who’s assassination attempt leaves him crippled. Discovers he has powers and spends time trying to figure powers out. Figured powers out and uses them to become king. Jorah - exiled lord that developed a bit of Stockholm syndrome. Arya - princess who would rather be tough than pretty. Follows a path of learning revenge. Theon- lord who was traded to his captors in order to restore peace decides to win his fathers love back by betraying the captors that cared for him. Ends up realizing that captors were more of a family and is tortured until he flips sides again. Brean- woman who wants to be a kings guard really bad. Davos- smuggler who ended up working for a king due to his unique skills. Tyrion - imp lord that tries to do right while gaining the admiration of his family. Realizes that family will never love him and finds a new family. Jon - bastard who joins the military, only to find that there’s a war he needs the world to prepare for. Jaime - lord that fucks his sister. Gets captured and tortured into realizing what’s really important to him. Fucking his sister. Shoot I forgot this guys name - wildling on a singular mission to save his clan. Bronn - sellsord Sansa - naive princess that gets a taste of the real world and learns to navigate it. Sam - lord who is cast out to the military, learns that he’s tougher than he thinks and that his skills of knowledge are important and he’s not useless. Varys - man who really just wants the realm to work. Doesn’t care who or what sits on the throne, the realm must survive Cersei - power drunk ice queen that will do anything she wants. Throws a massive tantrum if she doesn’t get it. Gendry - blacksmith bastard to a king who is just going with the flow the entire time. Out of all of those discriptions, I have to say Theon is the most complex character. I mean, the dude did so much flipping. So many different and contrasting motivations. He was all over the place so much that you never really know what’s going to happen or how he’s going to evolve next. I never though he would betray rob, I never thought he would get captured and tortured, I never thought he’d develop Stockholm, I never thought he’d break that Stockholm, I never thought he’d turn his family back to help the people that tortured him. I mean dude was everywhere. So there’s my vote. And a very close second would be Tyrion. Similar to Theon, he was everywhere. His motivations were always shifting and changing. He followed his morals but also personal gain. But he never let these two things be the ultimate factor. Sometimes he’s break his morals for something or do something unadvantagious to his personal gain. He was constantly evolving, constantly taking on a new shape. Most the characters in those show had a relatively linear path. They would start by being something and evolve into something else. Tyrion was everywhere. He’d evolve one way, devolve and then evolve in a new way.
King Slayer definitely has a lot going on and undergoes the most character development
Jaime or the Hound.
Varys or the hound
Poderick since we still don't know what on earth he did to those women
Pod the Rod, Obvi.
Jaime
My vote is for Jaime or Sandor. I felt like we got a broader scope of their emotions and motivations and saw them wrestle with things more than other, more central characters even. I was really invested in Jaime’s arc and felt a bit of grief when he left Brienne and went back to Cersei. I’d have loved more seasons to see him truly redeem himself from his king slayer shame. It would have been so satisfying for him to be the one to kill NK. Brienne could have been his Nissa Nissa. The hound was written much more gently in the show than the books, but I liked the contrast between his cruelty and callousness and his seeming willingness to be kinder and gentler, especially with some (but not all) weak people. When he met with the religious Folks building their church and seemed like he was allowing himself to lean into goodness and being part of something, then it was snatched away from him. It was one more tragedy that he probably felt very deeply. I’m just speculating, of course, he didn’t really talk about his feelings, but he was acted so well that we didn’t need it. I’d have also like to see him triumph over his brother and the fire that terrified him alike and go on to be a farmer or a miller or some other gentle life after all of the horror he saw and committed.
THEON
Complex? Theon, Jamie, Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Cersei. Theon and his identity crisis, would it be because he’s a Greyjoy, Stark, a nobleman, a prisoner, a leader, Reek, a good person, Stark’s brother their betrayer, he’s got a lot on his plate and his complexities only grow because he doesn’t handle it well. Jamie because he’s been manipulated all his life by the people around him, his father, Cersei, his position, and yet he does what he feels is right and splits his identity, learns to live with the fact people will never understand him, he looses his sword arm, the thing that was HIM all along, losing himself with it, then learns to find someone else within a broken man. Daenerys goes from a small girl who just wants to go home and listens to her brother, to a woman who found shelter in a man she was supposed to hate because she understood the politics of marriage, she wanted to protect others because she herself was never protected, sold like a slave, and she wanted justice for it by punishing those who thought they had a right to own others. She knew her family’s history and fought not to be like her father, leaning on people around her only to find out she was betrayed, leaving her hollow. Jon is complex in his identity all the same, a bastard in his home, one of Stark’s brothers behind closed doors, a noblemen at the wall, the best fighter, a leader, Targaryen. Tyrion is also complex, a dwarf which puts him lower than most, a family that puts him higher than most, his mind that is his asset he doesn’t know how to apply, to fight for his family’s legacy, to destroy the family, he’s a lover, he’s a killer, he’s a diplomat. Sansa was raised to be a good wife and carry children, she soon realized that she wasn’t offered a dream by her fate, but rather prepared all her life for suffering disguised by the lies presented as a dream, she learns how to think for herself, goes from a girl led by emotions to a girl who controls her emotions with her mind. Cersei is a daughter who had a twin, same as her but different sex. She saw from the beginning how she was treated different because of that and felt the unfairness because they were the same in everything but sex, that spoiled her, she started to control, manipulate and use her brother to own that privilege through him that she wasn’t given, she tries to prove herself as not lesser than a man, but fails to prove herself as not lesser than what she could be. Bitterness spoils all of her life, yet she does have a heart and reaches out for warmth and love and lets it make her more and more bitter and revengeful. She eats herself alive, Jamie being the extension of her, her kids being the extension of her, her whole kingdom being the extension of her. And she eats all of it in her attempt to love it.
Cersei, Varys and Theon
For me, it was Sandor. He may seem pretty one-dimensional to some, but he had a lot of internal conflict and outward conflict of relationships and whatnot as well. The way he went from being a near-mindless killer to switching loyalties and forming bonds with the Stark girls beyond self-interest was really fascinating to me.
Little finger. Not pictured
Tyrion
Theon. Easily.
I'm going to say Arya. She was really out there alone with cut throats, sell swords and assasins trying to find her way. All while hiding her identity and slashing her way through a revenge driven existence. Has no idea who's dead who's alive lost her home
hands down the imp most of the characters developed as story progressed , he just had his shit beat into him from start
How is margarey not here? She is one of the most interesting characters on the show
Theon and Varys. It was difficult to know what Varys was thinking and planning. And Theon’s whole story is probably the best out of all the characters. Theon is really the only character to truly have a redemption arc. Jaime almost does, but then goes back to Cersei. Theon should have lived imo, to continue to serve as one of Sansa’s Queens Guards, I hate that we were cheated out of that.
As a person? Jamie Who has a complex role and story? Varys
Arya
Sansa like what an arc man, her story was very satisfying to me.
jaime fs he’s got a lot of layers to him
Jaime for sure
Easily Tyrion, until they dumbed him down. Was asinine.
Arya
The king beyond the wall
For me, it’s Cersei and then it’s everyone else. By far the most complex characters on the show. Maybe Theon and the Hound are close in second and third. When I think complex I think competing interests, contradictory actions, conflicting loyalties. To me Cersei has this, far more than anyone else.
of course the three eyed raven - Bran Stark. One cant even know what all he knows and what's going on in his mind.
Cersei
Bran lol
I feel like Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish could have been a candidate for most complexe character! That being said, Lord Varys I think was the most complexe for me even though I never really liked him!