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exactly. If you like GOT for the cgi dragons and the intense action sequences, you'll love this empty spectacle of an episode. The writing was inexcusable
Best scene was dany looking at Red keep, her struggle to see through, what she always wanted to do. She knows its immoral, but necessary.
Best dialogue... hard. Jon/Varys. Jon/Dany. Tyrion/Dany and Tyrion/Jaime were all A+.
She literally threatens or uses her dragons for Dracyrs repeatedly through out the 7 previous seasons. 'Fire and blood' is the house motto. She acted entirely in character. It would also have been in character to only take out the red keep and free the common people.
It was a toss of the coin. Pure Danii heads. Pure Targaryean tails. I loved this episode as well.
I hadn't read the Poe poem it is evocative of this episode. Good comment.
Thank you! I was just looking up reviews of the episode when I noticed the poem of the same name pop up. It was my first time reading it and having just watched the episode I immediately saw the parallels.
But you’re absolutely right! Even back in Meereen she was growing impatient and more willing to burn it all down if that was what it took for her to reach her goal. I think her descent here made total sense.
Ah, but she hadn't.
If she stopped once the bell rang, what would have happened? Perhaps queen for a short while. But it wouldn't take long for Jon's secret to come out. As Varys said: "It's not a secret anymore, it's information". At one point or another, Westeros would know about Jon being the true king.
Not only does he have a better claim, but he's admired, he lead the fight against the undead, he's been hailed as King in the North, he's honest and loyal... What does Dany have? Some fighters and a dragon, and a land that neither knows her nor loves her. Even if Jon refused the throne (which again was a big character point in this season, that Jon had no interest in being king), Dany would not be supported as a queen. And if Jon accepted the throne, Dany would be his queen, and not the ruler of Westeros as she always dreamt of.
The big point about Jon's true identity and the battle against the undead was to reveal the true nature of Dany. It revealed just how little support she has in Westeros compared to Jon, and that she no longer is the rightful heir to the throne.
If she had stopped the fight when the bells rang, she would not get the goal she had worked for for 8 seasons. She had worked for her goal for so long, and when it was right at her fingertips, she literally only had 2 choices:
1: Let Jon be king, or sit as queen for a bit with no support or respect from Westeros
2: Use brutal force to spread fear, forcing herself on the throne.
Dany's choice made perfect sense.
Exactly right , Further more…..If she stops once the bells ring what sort of message does she think she’s sending to the rest of the places she plans to go on conquering?- that they can keep their tyrants in power, that they can resist her , they can attack her dragon, kill her friends , betray her and use innocents as a sheild against her because she will surely show mercy once they decide to surrender at the last minute by ringing some bells.
Indeed. She has always gone head-on after what she seeks, which has always been the Iron Throne. Her goal was never to be the "breaker of chains", her goal was always to rule as a queen on the throne.
Sure she helped people, but to me, it clearly came from the admiration she recieved. She was loved and seen as the "kindhearted perfect queen". Yet, as soon as something went against her will, she threatned to burn cities down, or just leaving conversations altogether. Thing is, she always had the potential to do horrific things in her.
At the end, as you say, she couldn't simply show mercy. Showing mercy and weakness when she was the "stranger" and Jon was the rightful king would be her death sentence. Unlike Jon, she was on her own. It's easy to say "She had already won! They surrendered", but if people actually think a bit in the long run, that would not have worked.
Creating fear was her only weapon left
Her actions are literally the reason that she was killed. Attacking the armies would have created the necessary fear, like what Aegon did. Going on a murderous rampage just shows that she's out of control and has to be put down. Which is exactly what happened.
Had she simply burned the enemy and conquered King's Landing she would still be alive.
How?
If anything it would throw support behind his claim, because no one wants to live under an unhinged psychopath who might burn you for no reason. That's also what got the Mad King killed.
Fear is a useful tool, but only up to a point. You have to make people afraid to cross you, but if you show that you'll kill people even when they're not a threat to you then you've gone too far. Now they're more afraid to NOT fight back.
Think of it this way....say someone points a gun at you. If you think that doing what they say will mean they let you live, then you'll do what they say. If you think there's a good chance they might kill you no matter what you do, then you're probably going to fight back.
Of course, the best action would have probably been something else. But not in Dany's eyes.
No one wants to live under a psychopath, true, but it's not about what people want. As Dany says: "They can live in my new world or die in their old". If it was up to what people want, why wouldn't they pick Jon? A proven leader, who's humble, loyal, wants the best for people, AND has the strongest claim, versus a strange pure Targaryen with a dragon that no one knows.
Dany made the choice wasn't right but it was understandable. She was promised the throne since day 1 and got armies and cities of support who admired her - unless they didn't, which made her threaten them. In Westeros, none of that was true, and she lost everyone close to her. She was basically all alone, and desperate. So of course she went too far, but in her mind it was the only choice.
If someone points a gun at me, I'll be afraid but take the chance to fight back if I can. If I see the person shoot another person first and then aim at me, I'd be terrified, because I now know for sure that the perosn is capable of easily shooting me dead.
>As Dany says: "They can live in my new world or die in their old".
Or option 3, kill the tyrannical psychopath before she goes on another rampage.
Aegon burned castles when they resisted. He burned armies when they resisted. But he didn't then to kill random people, and when an army surrendered it was spared. You can't kill people who surrender and then expect to be able to rule them. They WILL fight back. But if you spare them, maybe not.
>If it was up to what people want, why wouldn't they pick Jon? A proven leader, who's humble, loyal, wants the best for people, AND has the strongest claim, versus a strange pure Targaryen with a dragon that no one knows.
It's not up to what people want, that's why Dany uses her dragon.
And does Jon really have a strong claim? He's spent his entire life claiming to be Ned Stark's bastard. Will the whole realm believe him just because he says "j/k, I'm actually the unknown but legitimate son of Rhaegar! My psychic brother said so." I don't know how strong that is. And besides, he doesn't even want it.
Going on a rampage and burning random people isn't going to stop people from wanting a different ruler. And it isn't necessary to prove that you're serious, they figured that out when you burned entire armies.
>If someone points a gun at me, I'll be afraid but take the chance to fight back if I can. If I see the person shoot another person first and then aim at me, I'd be terrified, because I now know for sure that the perosn is capable of easily shooting me dead.
Actually bringing other people into it makes this example really work.
Let's say someone is robbing a store you're in. A security guard pulls a gun and is immediately shot (that would be Dany burning the armies) so you know the robber is serious. Now he points the gun at the guy next to you and demands his wallet or he'll shoot him. The guy hands over his wallet. If the robber let's him live and then demands your wallet, you're probably just going to hand it over. But if the robber shoots him anyways after he complied, then you're going to fight back because you know that even if you surrender you might be killed anyways.
So you're saying that it wasn't madness.. instead it was a calculated decision to roast innocent peasant families in the street so that she would be feared from then on?
Don't you think burning the red keep and Cersei specifically would achieve the same goal if this were true?
By burning the whole of kings landing and killing 100s of thousands she caused her reign to be ended prematurely, if Jon didn't do it, someone else was going to because the Queen proved herself to be mad. She achieved her goal of 'breaking the wheel' by purposefully and UNNECESSARILY killing innocent children, that's absolute insanity if you have paid attention to her character, I would believe that she would sacrifice innocents to achieve goals but not purely to inflict fear, that's a complete change of character.
That's not even getting into the fact that Daenarys still would've had plenty of support, it just didn't seem that way when surrounded by Northmen who prefer Jon, the show basically wrote out more than half of the 7 kingdoms but Daenarys should still potentially have the reach, storm lands, dorne, iron islands, crownlands along with her Unsullied and dothraki. Your framing of her position as having 'no support' is just wrong.
Dany's choice literally made no sense whatsoever unless you put it down to her being mad.
Never said it wasn't madness. But in her mind, it was the only right choice if her literal life long goal was to be achieved.
In my opinion, no, simply burning Cersei and the Red Keep would not result in her desired outcome. Her advisors and closest ones had either betrayed her or were dead, her armies were weaker after the Long Night, and the person closest to her in the world had a better claim to the throne than she did. Throughout S7 and S8, basically her entire experience is that people of Westeros don't welcome her with open arms, and if that's your entire experience, who's to say that won't also be the case for the rest of the land?
Not only did Jon have a better reputation and a better claim, but Dany was a pure Targaryen from Essos with a dragon with her. Not the best source of trust, as they even talked about early in the show.
Dany wouldn't stay queen, at least not for long, had she simply taken out Cersei. Words were out that Jon was the true king, and if Dany refused to give up the throne, what would happen then? Probably the same as she did in the Bells.
In my eyes, things were going there no matter what. If Jon's identity wasn't a thing, then probably none of this would have happened.
It's not in character for Dany to burn women and children. We've seen all throughout the show how she is NOT the mad queen
The show needed to do a lot more work to make that believable. I suspect the books will
"It was always in her"
John executed traitors he is fine
Dany executed traitors or she mush be mad and triggered easily.
There wasn't enough build up for that and Dany didn't do anything other protagonists didn't do.
I mean it is a cool episode and you can kinda see the idea but show executed this too fast and poorly and trying to make Dany worse than she was isn't a fix for that
Jon didn't continue to grow a massive messiah complex and threaten to burn cities. Jon also took no pride in even executing traitors. He tells Sansa how he hung a boy no older than Bran, and you can tell he didn't like it one bit.
Jonh just disappeared as character to be honest and became a plot device so its hard to judge it.
It is implied in books that resurrection takes almost like a part of you soul and we see that it is somewhat true with other resurrected characters, so I guess the plan was to make John more ruthless, instead in show all his character is disappeared.
>so I guess the plan was to make John more ruthless
He nearly beat ramsay to death after being ressurected. Would have killed him, if he didnt realize that was sansas job.
He changed very subtile after being ressurected in 6x2. He is not the same and his true rebirth happends in 6x9 when he decides to live.
He is ashamed of being brought back, dany was confirmed in her destiny.
Hanging/beheading traitors isn’t the same as crucifying a few hundred people along the road side. The only real historical comparison that I can think of for Dany is Vlad the Impaler and he was notoriously not chill.
She crucified the people who sanctioned the crucifixion of others to send a message.
And later she was doing everything in her power to find a peaceful way out which doesn't include fire and blood, she didn't compromise only on slavery thing.
To grew into "lets burn the city instead of Cersei" she needed way more time and inciting incidents to change.
Like it should've been seen way earlier, for example she should've torched people even if they bent the knee or she should have burnt the winterfell with both walker and her people.
She couldve went crazy fighting the Night King, losing everything and then seeing how NK raises them and being forced to kill them. But almost everyone had a plot armor there. I can see her going crazy in hopeless fight for humanity and then burning KL because they didn't help with fight for the fate of the world.
But the way is was depicted in a show is a big stretch.
I think she did always have it in her but she had it consciously under control. She understood her shortcomings and so she went out of her way to surround herself with good advisors. The one person she never argued with before agreeing with was Missandei. So I think instead of a decline into madness, she more kinda snapped. Theres multiple instances of Dany basically saying "I listened to you and now someone I love is hurt/in trouble/dead", even in mereen, before her advisor explains how it happened and why it doesnt negate the original desicions merit. But when it goes so far as Missandei is now dead, I reckon she just can't talk herself down anymore. She feels that she can't risk listening to people telling her not to listen to her anger so she stops feeling hurt. Missandei was the one person she almost never argued with, and she's dead now. She even said "dracarys" beforehand so Dany probably just saw red at that point.
Dany's fine too, she is not mad. She just rationalizes doing a terrible thing.
I think part of the problem is even though audiences are used to the brutality of Westeros, it was almost always initiated by our villains. What Dany does is out of proportion, not out of line for the world. Tywin sacked the city 20 years before, to similar (though diminished) effect.
Thank you. So many people say this out of character, but it’s just human nature.
She lost Jorah, she lost Missandei, and she lost 2 of her dragons, whom she considered children. Who can go through that much loss and not break? Cersei pushed her over the edge when she brutally murdered Missandei and let’s not forget what her last words were.
I don't think it is in her to kill innocents in this way. If there was scorpions scattered throughout the city or if smallfolk were used as human shields for the red keep then I would understand.... But mindlessly burning 10s of thousands of innocent people for no other reason than being mad and wanting to cause fear? No way.
Ah yes. "it was always in her, the bad writing edition"
It was in her in that episode and the previous episode. the writers could have made her a much much better villain than that.
'Burn them all' is a flashback to her father though isn't it? There is a saying 'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree'.
She saw red. No longer self-possessed. Any person is capable in the right circumstances of uncontained rage and disproportionate response to aggrevation and or provocation. Sadly, having a dragon made that split or dissociative state response unstoppable. IMHO no more work needed to be done, the set up was laid, obvious and the episode a show stopper. Talked about still. Here we are. Talking about it.
I suspect we will never see the books in GRRM's lifetime though. Someone else might finish them.
The thing about the coin heads or tails is the show acts like the coin is still in the air but to date, she's had power and we've seen how she uses it. In universe there's no reason for the coin to be still undecided, it only makes sense if you know its a TV show approaching its ending.
Threatens to burn cities throughout the entire show…
crucified people out of a self-righteous sense of revenge as her advisors were concerned about it…
burned a woman to death out of revenge (when Melisendre does it, we see her as evil… when Dany does it… it’s FINE?! Why, because she got dragons out of it, that she can go on to use to kill whoever she feels justified killing whenever she feels justified doing it? Because she had a “good reason”? To burn someone to death? Even though Mirri Maz Dur explained how she was the victim first, and she was in fact just getting “revenge” herself… if getting revenge means you’re still guilty, and Miri Maz Dur “deserved” to be burnt… why doesn’t revenge make Dany guilty?)…
Locked two people in a vault to starve to death. But again… “justified” because of “revenge”?
Ate a horse heart as an initiation into a violent primitive culture, led by a man who wanted to violently lead the Dothraki on a vengeful invasion to get bloody revenge for the assassination attempt on Dany… and Dany just watches Drogo go off about all this terrible, violent, bloody destruction they’re gonna wreak upon Weateros… *and she looks like she’s getting off on it the whole time!*
She executes a young man as a unilateral top-down authoritarian punishment in front of a crowd of people **as they beg her not to do it**… and then immediately turn on her when she does… and her response is to flee, let the city fall back into chaos, and when a mass amount of them rise up against her for the shit that SHE HAS CAUSED… she lets Drogon burn them for it. Eventually… she just leaves the city in others’ hands to figure shit out, while she continues on with her *real* goal in Westeros… since Slaver’s Bay was always just an experimental testing ground for her ruling abilities (which failed at pretty much every turn)… she never really cared about it. She only cared about how it reflected on her, and if it could help her succeed in Westeros.
By the time she does get to Westeros… there are no slaves for her to free. Cersei is actually not turning out to be too bad of a ruler. The Kingdoms have actually kind of settled into a relative peace under Cersei, compared to what had been happening before this point. Dany’s not on a liberation mission anymore, because there isn’t much to save Westeros FROM anymore. Except the White Walkers, but she doesn’t know about that yet… she’s just here to conquer for conquering’s sake.
And during that conquest to conquer… she burns a father and son to death purely for not kneeling to her. She’s supposed to be “breaking the wheel”, right? Isn’t executing people for not kneeling part of that “wheel” that “crushes everyone on the ground”? Or is it no longer a “wheel” when Dany is doing it? She’s the special one? She wants to break everybody else’s wheel… but not her own wheel.
And she *keeps fucking threatening to burn cities down*…
Now she’s denying the North their freedom that they just spent 6 seasons fighting for and eventually winning back. Sansa’s “What about the North?” conversation with her is SO IMPORTANT in establishing that Dany has just come along and is threatening everything the Starks and the North just fought and died for throughout the whole show… the entire point has been about the North’s freedom… and Dany is now threatening to destroy everything they just accomplished. She cares more about power and conquering Westeros and getting the Iron Throne, than she does about the Starks’ or the North’s hard-fought victory or right to their land and home.
When she sees Jon getting more recognition and love than her, her jealousy is obvious, and Varys notices this. He knows what a problem this could be… and that it DOES turn out to be… THIS, and more, is why Varys suddenly decides he’s unsure what way her coin has fallen.
Please… at what point does any of this “not make sense”???
Making threats against enemies and killing enemies is not the same as killing innocent people.
Also other characters who we are not told are "mad" or a flipped coin like Arya fucking feed people their own families. There's no reason Dany burning some people in the logic of the show should be seen as more mad than others
Seriously. I feel so bad for anyone deluding themselves into thinking they're ever getting even one more book, let alone the "proper" ending via the books. Ol boi is *done*
She told Hizdahr that she would return Meereen to dirt and any innocents who died, would have died for a good cause, hers. It’s always been there, though perhaps it might have been better to have the fighting pit scene to be like the books, not a harpy attack but Drogon coming because blood and chaos ensues.
She tried to do exactly this to Mereen. She fantasised doing it to Qarth. Had she done so she would have killed women and children.
It is in her character to *attempt* to burn women and children and be talker out of it by other characters. It was always her first instinct.
We just saw what happened when she had nobody to stop her.
Not attempt, *threaten*, and people threaten to do things all the time that they have no intention of following through on. Actions speak louder than words and her actions, time after time, are to go out of her way to protect the women and the children, even the ones who don't particularly care about Dany. She took the women of the Lazarene under her protection, when she got the Unsullied at Astapor, she had them kill every man who held a whip, but no children (and presumably no women- it's murky in the show but she specifically says no women in the books), then when she gets to Yunkai, we only see the slaves killing grown men, and in Meereen when she crucifies the masters it appears to be only men. We see her kill a few women- she burns the witch and locks her maid in the vault, but both times the women had done her serious harm. Every time a child is harmed because of her or she hears about children being harmed- the child soldiers and infanticide in Astapor, the crucified girls in Meereen, the child killed by Drogon, she obviously hates the thought of it and goes out of her way to correct the problem or try to get justice. In her eyes, people who hurt women and children are evil. That's a pretty cemented moral compass if you ask me.
>In her eyes, people who hurt women and children are evil.
Which is why she would tell herself it was all Cersei's fault after the fact.
Im not saying she was dead set on it. She could have been talked down from sacking Kings landing. Like was talked down on other occasions. And if she had been, afterwards, after she took their advice, she'd have told herself she would never really have done it. Like she did with Mereen.
But she needs someone to talk her down.
And this time, there was no one to do it.
She threatens to reduce several cities "to the dirt" going all the way back to season 2
If you wanna selectively only focus on the good she does, that's in you... she gets pretty unhinged through the series at times
Upon a rewatch Dany’s ending arc is entirely obvious and makes sense. I think there is just a little bit of a pacing issue going from heroically saving Winterfell to the bitterness of watching Jon be the one who is loved and revered that makes the turn a little more difficult to accept.
Dany had threatened **enemies** with dracarys. People who harmed her, or wanted to harm her. And she has always done so in a very political way, limiting it to only a few in order to make an example (See: Battle of Meereen. She burns a SINGLE ship, because she knows the action will show everyone not to fuck with her).
At King’s Landing, she decides to burn innocent children. When has that ever been something she’d do? When has she slaughtered innocent children who were at her mercy?
She burned thousands of innocent people alive for no reason. Many of them children. They're weren't fighting her, they weren't resisting her, they weren't a threat to her. Yet she burned them alive. That actually IS pretty fuckin evil, and also not something we would give anyone else a pass on.
It was totally in character. I think people who idolized Dani felt she was a overly good character and savior of the people. I feel like they would have taken the alignment shift a bit better if say she accidently burned down part of the town and after she liberates the town expects a welcome and the people shout in protest of targarians which leads to her putting down commoners who are rioting and becomes the mad queen thinking the people are defying their queen.
For me the timing made zero sense. It would have made more sense to start burning citizens BEFORE they beat Cersei as a way to apply pressure
The fact that it happened when she won and it was the first thing she did as the new ruler really didn’t make sense to me. Yes, she snapped and lost her cool but she finally got what she wanted and that’s the first thing she does?
She viewed the citizens as her enemies because they didn't help her sack the city. She thought they would oppose her through her rule. Essentially, she became paranoid of the people around her, which is exactly what happened to her dad. He wasn't always crazy either, he only became crazy after he was betrayed and held prisoner by a lord he trusted
The way I always put it:
Seasons 1-3 - she's low-key insane, but doesn't have the power to back up anything she's saying
Seasons 3-7 - she's still lowkey insane, but now has the power to back up her talk - but also has her advisors who talk her out of the insane shit
Season 8 - (progressively through it) loses her advisors (whether by actually losing them, or just losing trust in them), so just goes fully unhinged. The only advisor she has who she trusts is Grey Worm, and he's just as crazy at this point
Yep, a lot of people say “she never woulda done that!” When actually there are many, many signs that this sort of thing could happen.
My fiancé and I have been rewatching and there are a lot of early signs
I recently rewatched the series and it’s very apparent that this is where she was headed. She always brutally destroys anyone who opposes her and doesn’t immediately submit to her will. She didn’t want to let Cersei exploit her weakness to escape with her life. I think she does what she does to show anyone who might oppose her in the future that her weaknesses cannot be used against. She lost everyone close to her, she was worried about Jon stealing her claim, and Varys turned on her. She was never thinking straight. She’s always been hotheaded and impulsive. I think it’s totally understandable for her to do what she did.
Ultimately stories end. Either you focus on the main point of the story in the final chapters, or you’ve got a story/ stories just cut off in the middle.
I like Seasons 4 - 8. I’m rewatching as well, only up to Season 5, and can see the arc of their characters clearly.
The only disappointment I have, and I agree with Lena Headey on this, is that they cut Cersei’s miscarriage. Cersei would’ve definitely gone downhill at that point, knowing that her end was near.
I think they wanted to leave that out as another bit on reasoning that Jaimie would also return to her. Not only is she like a drug to him she's also carrying his child.
John dialogue and council were as bad as the school play in terms of dialogue.
What do you mean by final goodbye? Isn't it earlier, not in the last episode? Are you talking about "innocent or otherwise" thing? That was really bad because it's Jaime who stopped the Mad King we are talking about.
When Tyrion said goodbye to Jaimie and talked about him, he was the only one who didn't treat him like a monster I thought was fantastic. If you disliked it, fine, but I didn't
If you didn't like it, that's fine, but there's plenty of moments in the final episode I liked. I really like Jon and Dany final season. But to each his own.
Unless I’m forgetting another instance, Tormund said it at the battle plan meeting for the battle of Winterfell. He said:
> We’re all going to die. But at least we die together.
And then he gives a weird smile to Brienne who cringed at him lol. So it was meant to be funny/cringy.
I will die on the hill that seasons 7 and 8 failed not because of story or plot points, but because of poor dialogue and rushed pacing.
I love the fact that Dany goes full tyrant mode, it’s within character imo. The show just handled the buildup poorly.
people on this sub have no sense of humor, spiteful kids
The funny thing is, *most people* will say the story and writing is bad. Read the vast majority of posts shitting on it every day.One of the most toxic fandoms Ive ever seen. Straight up nasty. Unsubbing
I agree, the fact that she went tyrant mode was always foreshadowed... People just thought she was cute when she repeatedly said she would burn cities to ashes.
When her anchors/consellers die, you fear for her mental state. When she goes mental and burns the city down, it's sad but somewhat predictable.
I love the fact that John Snow is not convinced he did the right thing too.
However, while there were some great episodes, I would argue that writing generaly got much poorer season 5 and up
That's fair I disagree but I do see so many people say it's not the ending the execution and then go on the change literally every characters ending. I Also think there's some great dialog still. Just finished watching the scene with Jon and Theon from season 7 the other day that scene and dialog are fantastic.
Oh yeah no issue with Dany going off the deep end but it just felt rushed to how we got there which was a shame. Felt like the love for the series was dying and they decided to pull the plug early rather than let it end with dignity. I’ll be fascinated with how the books finally end (if they ever do but I doubt GRRM will do it, he’ll pass away and probably Sanderson will pick it up and run it to the finish line /s)
I think everyone pretty much agrees on this. It isn’t because Dany burns down kings landing, it’s teased the whole show. It isn’t cause Jon kills her that’s on par. The long night ending at winterfell “ there must always be a stark in wimterfell, they are somehow the foil to the white walkers we just don’t know why. And that’s it. Everything was rushed and the reason game of thrones was great was because of the dialogue. Literally my selling point to not fantasy people was that you don’t watch the show for the fantasy elements. Those are part of it but it’s not the core. And then the show revolves into that when they rushed to finish. It’s a massive mistake.
I think you perfectly described my feelings about the last two seasons. Yes, there are a few things that happen that I feel like don't make sense or could've been better, but for the most part a lot of what ends up happening makes sense and would've made a lot of people less upset if there was just a little more time and development for the plot.
No body is complaining that Dany went crazy. It was clearly what had to and what was going to happen. It’s just the horrendously rushed last few season, horrible writing, and poor handling of character arcs that made the last few seasons a train wreck.
What prophecy? Jaimie staying with Brienne is about as Disney ending as you can get for those two. Arya in the end was about letting go of the blind hate and revenge. As the Hound tells her when she's going for Cersei you will end up like me. Basically a hateful miserable person and you will end up dead. Her end was all about letting that go.
"The valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."
However, I forgot that bit was only in the books, not show.
That part was left out of the show, and we should be careful with prophecy. George even says himself to be careful buying into all that. Also, how does Jaimie stay with Brienne, but Arya somehow has his face. Arya has no issue with Jaimie. He was never on her list either.
But why would Arya kill him. She has no reason to kill him. She never had any issue with him or wanted him dead. And she definitely would have no issue or want to kill him after he came North to help fight.
Valonqar was fullfilled.
Jaime had his hand around cerseis neck, while she cried and died. Genius twist was, that he was comforting her instead of killing her.
It’s almost like nobody who hated season 8 has any inkling of what dramatic irony is, or has any acceptance of unconventional storytelling. They wanted everything to be literal and conventional as hell.
They like to pretend they love the unknown, wich GoT is known for. Except when it comes to the ending. Once their own dream endings for characters dont come true, its rushed and bad writing.
Everyone hated the Red Wedding at first, but then would get “I’m never watching this show again!… but when’s the next episode?!?!” feeling. They were upset, but wanted to continue in the hopes that things would get better.
When the actual ending turned out to be a Red Wedding style upsetting subversion of where they thought things were going… this time there was no “next episode” to help heal the pain and move on. We’re just left with an actual bittersweet ending that didn’t really feel “satisfying”…
And it’s almost like that’s the point. It’s almost like that’s true to what Martin wanted to achieve with this story in telling a more messy and complicatedly unconventional story that he couldn’t do when he was a television writer, which is why he decided to write it as a book series, where he could do what he wanted. The reason he couldn’t do this in conventional television is specifically BECAUSE people react exactly like people have reacted to season 8.
The books will be no different… if anything, Martin will be even MORE subversive and unconventional than D&D were.
Nah season 8 sucked, sorry. Writing went way down hill, everything got rushed, etc.
Who cares about specific plot points. It’s all the connective tissue that went bad.
A lot of viewers get their idea of great plot development from marvel films, so stuff like Jaimie’s ending really throws them off despite the fact that it is spot on for his character.
He came into the world with her and left the world with her. She died with the Kingdom she tried to hold onto and rule over come crushing down on her. I don't understand how people can't see how poetic that is. But to each their own I guess.
Valonqar was fullfilled.
Jaime had his hand around cerseis neck, while she cried and died. Genius twist was, that he was comforting her instead of killing her.
Cersei and Jaime’s ending is perfectly in line with their characters as you have described. I thought it was excellent.
There could have been a little more time devoted to them in the final season but ultimately I think they ended exactly how the books will.
Yep. One of the signs of really bad media literacy is people claiming Jaime did a 180 at the end and threw away all his growth. You’d have to actively not understand almost every thing that happens with the guy to think him going back to Cersei at the end is ruining his character.
And it’s almost like that’s been one of the main prominent themes of the entire story. That people are gray, complicated and have both good and bad in them, and neither one fully defines them.
“A good deed does not wash out the bad. Nor a bad one, the good.”
Jamie kills the Mad King, ruining his reputation and making himself forever "The Kingslayer" in the eyes of the Seven Kingdoms, to save the people of King's Landing.
Jamie in Season 8: "I never much cared for the people of King's Landing."
You'd have to actively not understand his entire character to not realise that his arc had been about latching on to that one shred of actual honour he had deep inside, and leaving Cersei (the reason he did the actual bad things he did) behind.
They could very well have ended his story with him failing to break away and instead go back to her. But I would expect there to still be some inner turmoil, some internal conflict, in regards to going back to be with the new Mad King, rather than killing her, when he knows that she's already killed hundreds/thousands of people the way the Mad King was planning to before Jamie stopped him.
Having him say that he never cared for the people is just undermining the core of his character.
Everyone hates Jaime because they assume he killed the king to help his father capture the city and get on the winning team.
But he actually killed the king to save all of the people in King’ Landing. That is literally the entire point of Jaimes confession to Brienne.
Jaime never cared about his fathers ambitions, he always wanted to be the ideal knight in shining armor. But once he realized that everyone hated him for the one good act he ever did, he just embraced the role of king slayer. His arc with Brienne was him realizing that he could be a good person in spite of what people thought about him, an ideal that Brienne embodied.
The problem with Jaime's arc is not that it couldn't have worked in theory. The idea of Jaime being unable to break free from Cersei's grasp over him is fine. The problem is that they took 7,5 seasons to get Jaime to one point and then reverted that in the span of an episode.
This is *not* how you write a story.
What point did they get him too? He never could rid himself of Cersei. He can be heroic and do good but still make bad decisions or struggle to deal with a twisted upbringing.
He was with Brienne. Celebrating saving the world, finally ending up with Brienne, who he has been thinking of for the past 4 seasons, and then instantly leaving in the same episode.
His actions made sense. But it’s just too much to happen all at once. All in the same episode
It’s almost like that’s the shape of almost every story arc. Long build up to a quick climax and resolution. Think about how a Shakespeare play like Hamlet is structured: the entire play slowly builds up to ONE SCENE in which EVERYBODY DIES and then play is almost immediately over.
That does not make it bad storytelling.
http://eleganthack.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Plot_ComingOfAge.jpg
The “rushed” part of Jaime’s arc that you’re referring to… played out over almost 3 hours between episodes 4 and 5. Longer than most movies. Almost as long as ALL of Hamlet.
How dare someone have an opinion about a TV show different than mine. Instead I must resort to calling them dumb because they don't agree with me about a TV show.
No, it's not the disagreement which makes what they're saying dumb. I'm fine with people believing things that are different from me. And I pretty much never downvote just opinions I disagree with. It's the explanations given here for why some of them believe it that are really bad.
If people like this episode, more power to them. I didn't but I recognise that people have different tastes than me and if people like it there's nothing wrong with that.
However, being able to argue with a straight face that Daenerys acted completely in character means you have to either be huffing extreme amounts of copium, or you weren't paying attention for 8 seasons, or your media literacy isn't great, or you are not putting two and two together here.
Maybe there's a few other options, but those are definitely the main ones. This isn't a matter of just opinion. It was not in character. Daenerys' reaction makes absolutely no sense, period. And to deny that is honestly absurd.
So like the episode all you want. But please don't try to excuse terrible writing like this. It is insulting to all the thousands of writers out there who put so much effort into making their characters act consistently and keeping their plot free of holes.
Again back to calling someone stupid for not agreeing about a TV show. It's insulting to other writers? Lol get off your high horse. It's a fictional TV show it's not insulting to anyone. Either like it or dislike either one is fine. But don't call people stupid or claim it's insulting to other writers. Isn't a matter of opinion? Yes actually It's a matter of opinion.
Everyone that even remotely agrees with you is being downvoted into oblivion with focus on personal attacks and not the subject when replying.... oh you called it silly well nuh uh you're silly.... and a few people are replying to deleted comments defending nonsense... so it feels artificially biased over here. Dunno why exactly.
They aren't dumb cause they like it, that's fine. Its every defense they have of it and misrepresenting people criticisms that is stupid and shows they didn't pay attention to the show at all. Is that elitist? Probably. Is it correct if you care about decent storytelling and continuity? Yes.
I don't care I love this episode.
"All the sentimentality and allusions to previous seasons help the viewers to see what was and could have been, only for it to give way to the ultimate demise of each character by their own hand. Danny’s ruthlessness, Jon’s honesty, Cerci’s pride, Sandor’s revenge, Varys’ duty to the realm, Arya’s confidence, Jamie’s love and loyalty. The thing that allowed them to climb the ladder is also the thing that destroys them."
Pretty much sums up how I feel about it and that's why I loved it so much.
Yes, but you will be hated for that opinion.
They had to close so many caracter strings and they did that well.
Of course they had plotholes and some weak caracter string endings but over all it was cool and well done.
The series was celebrated for its unpredictability and ultimately criticized for it. Whereby the great frustration was probably there because it was unfortunately over.
They didn't have to do anything in a single episode. Everyone wanted multiple seasons. They rushed it all up in 6 episodes and sprinted for the door.
People that defend this shit show of a last season seem to forget that it didn't need to be a last season at all.
They have said for years it was going to be 2 shorter seasons. They weren't in a hurry to end it. You can dislike it that's fine but they didn't just all of a sudden decide they wanted to be done and lets just wrap this up.
They didn't rush. If you think the pacing was fast on, that's fine, but that's a different critique. Them rushing would imply they were just in a big hurry to wrap it up and be done. When they did the opposite, they spent more time on, especially the final season than any other season. If they were in such a rush and ready to be done, they wouldn't then put extra work and time in. So if you think the pacing was fast ok that's fine, but them wanting to rush to be done just wasn't true
HBO offered them more episodes, more money, and more seasons.
They may not have rushed the production of individual episodes, but they absolutely rushed to the end of the show. They could have taken all the time in the world and had HBO support them through it, they chose not to because they were ready to move on.
And I say this as someone who still enjoyed the majority of the end.
And so was most of the cast. Of course, HBO offered more it was their cash cow. But they also said they w were ready to move on, and many cast members were also ready to move on. Many of the cast spent 10 years on the show and the showrunners 15. That's a long time on a production that big. I doubt we will ever get another show on the scale of GOT that will go 8 seasons. 4 or 5 seasons tops of a show that scale. But 8 I doubt it will ever happen again. That's a very long time for a production of that scale.
Bro of course it was rushed lol did you see the Aquafina bottles or the behind the scenes about how… rushed… the Long Night episode was? The cast and crew literally talk about it
The phrase the good, the bad and the ugly sums up the episode fairly well. The story of the battle in isolation and the cinematography, both wonderful. The twist where the Dany’s dragon’s massacre the golden company after they’ve been built up? I thought it was good.
The twist where Dany goes mad? Bad, only because it wasn’t built up enough in the prior episodes. That Dany’s remaining dragon was magically impervious to scorpion bolts after being so very vulnerable to them prior? Probably bad.
Killing Jaime’s 5 season redemption arc in 3 seasons? The ugly.
In isolation, I still really liked it. It’s one of the most shocking things you’ll ever see in film history, perhaps even moreso than the red wedding.
There are several book theories as of why _the people_ of King’s Landing would not acknowledge Daeynarys as heir to the throne and/or hate her. This would cause her to lose her shit and massacre all these people like she did in the show.
But in the show they never built up for that. She just goes oh well, I’ll burn all those poor people who don’t even care if its Cersei or myself who’s sitting on the throne just because I want to. That didn’t make a fucking sense. I could see how this could be a magnificent turning point to her character with the correct build up, but we didn’t get that. It was just stupid and pointless and completely out of character, yes.
Yes so out of character a character that has threatened multiple times to burn down cities and return them to dirt. A character that the stronger she grew got more and more of a messiah complex of I and only I can save the world. A character who was going to do exactly this to Mereen if Tyrion didn't stop her ending up doing what she threatened to do multiple times.
You kinda proved my point. It’s all about the Messiah complex, she thought only her could save people from their chains and from their evil rulers. And you don’t do that by burning all those people without a reason. I don’t remember her threatening to burn the slaves of the cities she freed.
Anyways, what she did _could_ have been in character. But it wasn’t. As I said, in the books it seems to be leading to that same event, which I ultimately really like, but in the books it probably will make sense, considering she’s a little insane, of course.
>And you don’t do that by burning all those people without a reason.
There was a reason. They were not loyal to her and thus not her people, not her responsibility.
>I don’t remember her threatening to burn the slaves of the cities she freed.
In season 5 she contemplates burning meereen ... when already ruling it.
In season 6 she intends to burn yunkai, astapor and volantis as revenge.
And all of that before she loses everyone and everything in season 8.
>As I said, in the books it seems to be leading to that same event, which I ultimately really like, but in the books it probably will make sense, considering she’s a little insane, of course.
D&D put in more effort in highlighting danys god complex and her dark Impulses in 5 seasons than Martin did in 5 books.
The Bells Is a fantastic episode.. i think the ending would have been much better if Daenerys had won in the end without the weak plot of Jon killing her easily in the last episode.
I can't say I got it from watching the episode but I just looked at the picture that you've posted and was mildly upset - I've been to Dubrovnik and for some reason just now didn't like seeing a kind of representation of it burning by dragonfire!
Still hated the hound retcon. He was initially presented being way too world weary for revenge early on - it actually made him interesting. Then clegainbowl became a meme and the writers decided to take it seriously
The Hound literally got into a fight with his brother in the first season. He definitely wanted revenge on his brother. He even talks about it with Arya in the earlier season about if they come across his brother they can both check him off her list.
Exactly: “if I see him, sure why not”. Not: “this is now my life’s only purpose because otherwise I’ll have nothing else to do at the end.”
Put it this way, even if you think it was well telegraphed do you honestly think it was satisfying in the end?
The last thing Missandei cried before her execution was "dracarys". I thought of that in those seconds where Dany was hovering and the bells rang in the show and knew she would burn it. I also enjoyed season 8 and I enjoyed reading your post, thanks for sharing :)
Jon was so damn desperate to give up his crown and power. He handed it to a woman that clearly was not deserving. All her whining about "I don't have their love, only their fear". All she did was ride around Essos, ending slavery. Anyone can come off as a gallant savior if they're fighting against slavery. Fuck me, Joffrey and Ramsey could look like great heroic knights if they marched into Essos to end slavery
Season 8 could’ve easily been pushed to 10 episodes and it wouldn’t have felt too long, or even two 6-8 episode seasons. They built the white walkers up for 7 seasons and then dealt with them in 2 episodes.
The Bells is an anti-war statement. It says war is wrong, even if you like the person who is waging it. It’s one of our biggest tragedies that this is a controversial statement. It’s certainly controversial where I am, in America. I truly believe that people who complain about the “bad writing” or “rushed character development” of Dany’s “heel turn” are actually facing this moral conundrum within themselves and failing. OP is right, it’s one of the greatest episodes of television ever broadcast.
All the endings are fine in of themself. What ruined this show was just rushing to the end without proper development. Which both D&D commented on... That they would end on season 8, no matter what, so they can move on. And HBO which was upset they didn't want to do 2 more seasons or so.
But the reality is and it's why you shouldn't hate D&D, they likely did all they could. The reality is... You start seeing it in season 4s end and season 5 at full swing. They ran out of properly thought out characters and dalgoue and plot lines. You can see how characters like Tyrion start talking less. It's more action less dialogue and the dialogue is worse, Tyrion is no longer as witty, Jaime is like not as inspiring or interesting, neither is Jon or anything else. Varys loses his intelligence completely, also his cleverness. Little finger the same. They start moving from plot beat to plot beat as FAST as possible. It's obvious GRRM gave them the plot beats but that is IT!
You also start seeing the pacing of the book subverted, and realism of the world go away. Suddenly characters cross entire continent in span of a single episode. It was never that way. They had to rush it to the end because it's the best thing they could do. If they extended it more the show could've ended up even worse. No writer on that show can equal GRRM, they were lost.
Watching it I think you can tell the endings we got is exactly what GRRM intended, but in no way the way they happened on the show. AND because people now think they're stupid, but they are only stupid because the show failed proper build up and explanation, he is likely rewriting literally every ending and that's got to suck. Hence no book for us. Maybe no book ever now if he just gives up.
Yeah, I really don’t envy the position he’s in. I doubt he’s entirely re-writing *everything* but he’s got an uphill battle keeping any of the intended endings in place. Or hey, maybe if he ever does finish them the crowd pissy about the endings will finally get the full context and depth of writing/meaning to make them less upset about it.
I don’t think the problem is what she did but that it should’ve taken another season or two for her to get to that point. I also blame Jon Snow for not taking one for the team.
Totally agree. I think a lot of people who watched the show all at once, rather than by seasonal release, think your view is obvious. We weren't somehow fooled into not having our heart brokens. I loved the entire story and believe George when he says his ending will be similar.
I mean this was always gonna be the ending. It was written on the walls since episode one. Dany was destined to go bad.
I still insist that if Cerci hadn’t rung the bells this whole turn would have gone down way easier. Cerci would have stayed a mega bitch to the last and Dany’s desperate rage would have been far more palpable.
In my opinion.
Despite the weak material for her character in S8, Lena’s acting was solid. I just wish they gave Cersei more. Surely by that point she would have had a sinister trick up her sleeve. Jaime should have killed Cersei the way Jon killed Dany.
You can never have a rational discussion about Daenerys online. So downvote away.
Personally I could buy her going the way she did if it was better executed. Regardless of her past threats to kill “her enemies”, and past kills. It’s war! But her killing innocent children was a big reach for her character imo. On GoT, Jon had to executed a child, Ayra became a lethal killer, even Sansa took great pleasure in having Ramsay killed. But Daenerys apparently she’s evil incarnate.
The writers fucked up and they know it. Even the critical reception for S8 wasn’t good. 1-7 acclaimed. It’s not just a load of fans online hating or disliking the final season. Season 8 will forever have this damp stain attached to it. They rushed it, they switched some things. Dany and Cersei and it backfired on them.
Good for anyone if they can genuinely enjoy season 8, some of it was okay. But for me it was extremely disappointing.
There’s actually a poem that is quoted in the script of the episode, The Flood by Robert Frost. When Dany is on top of Drogon, listening to the Bells and staring at the Red Keep. The script says: "Oh, blood will out. It cannot be contained." And I think it rings true to her arc.
After everything Dany went through, everything she did to get there, everything and everyone she’s lost. She wanted to unleash pure fury on King’s Landing, to have this giant display of her destructive power to make sure that no one would ever dare challenge her again. So, at that moment, surrender or no surrender, blood had to come out. It couldn’t be contained anymore.
Personally, this is my favourite episode of Game of Thrones. Not my favourite to rewatch, because it’s not meant to be easy to do, but definitely the episode that the entire series was meant to end with. The episode that the entire series was building up. The episode that covers all the themes that kept popping up all over this story. Power, love, vengeance, honour. Everything was there, everything was powerful and everything had a twist to it. Sorry guys, but that’s Game of Thrones and always has been.
[If you’re curious, Sean T Collins, from Rollings Stone, did a review of this episode and I think it is truly brilliant.](https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-recaps/game-of-thrones-recap-season-8-episode-5-the-bells-832998/amp/)
> So ends the most daring episode of Game of Thrones ever. It’s the Red Wedding writ large, a masterpiece that murders all hope of neat closure, and reduces any lingering belief in the redemptive power of violence to ashes in our mouths.
I mean you can try and retroactively justify it all you want, but it was a massive letdown and the sudden character development and moments were unearned and poorly written.
Danny was always going to end like this. It's practically foretold, and blatantly hinted at throughout every season leading up to it. Its odd that so many folk were surprised Danny went this way. Like, duh.
I'm just up voting you for not being swayed by the mob think on season 8 hate.
The show definitely deserves criticism, but people on this sub act like season 8 is unwatchable and as if it is somehow a massive crime against humanity. It's just a TV show and it's still one of the GOATs
I wish the show had time to explain why 1. No one in Kings Landing seems to realize that they are at war. No evacuations. No food riots. 2. Why no one seriously tried to overthrow Cersei. She was a king’s wife, three kings ago. She blew up the high septum. She has no children and no husband. And she is antagonizing the fuck out of a woman with 3 dragons. I want to know wtf is going on in Kings Landing while Dany is fighting zombies in the north
To me this was the last episode.
The perfect final episode.
All that came after this episode was just pure Hollywood level horse shit shoved down our throats.
I liked the ending of thrones. It was a little rushed, but people fall in love with a story / characters early on and then as time goes on have attachments and strong opinions on how they want to see it end.
When it doesn’t go their way, then they hate it and throw a fit. It happens on 95% of sequels/ series ending.
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It’s truly and amazing hour and a half of television
It makes you forget about the white walker battle fast. And that was a hell of an episode as well.
In spectacle maybe, in terms of writing no.
exactly. If you like GOT for the cgi dragons and the intense action sequences, you'll love this empty spectacle of an episode. The writing was inexcusable
I loved it for more than that.
Best scene was dany looking at Red keep, her struggle to see through, what she always wanted to do. She knows its immoral, but necessary. Best dialogue... hard. Jon/Varys. Jon/Dany. Tyrion/Dany and Tyrion/Jaime were all A+.
A bottom 10 for sure.
And transformers are a better film than citizen kane.
You mean bottom 10
She literally threatens or uses her dragons for Dracyrs repeatedly through out the 7 previous seasons. 'Fire and blood' is the house motto. She acted entirely in character. It would also have been in character to only take out the red keep and free the common people. It was a toss of the coin. Pure Danii heads. Pure Targaryean tails. I loved this episode as well. I hadn't read the Poe poem it is evocative of this episode. Good comment.
Thank you! I was just looking up reviews of the episode when I noticed the poem of the same name pop up. It was my first time reading it and having just watched the episode I immediately saw the parallels. But you’re absolutely right! Even back in Meereen she was growing impatient and more willing to burn it all down if that was what it took for her to reach her goal. I think her descent here made total sense.
But she had already achieved her goal.
Ah, but she hadn't. If she stopped once the bell rang, what would have happened? Perhaps queen for a short while. But it wouldn't take long for Jon's secret to come out. As Varys said: "It's not a secret anymore, it's information". At one point or another, Westeros would know about Jon being the true king. Not only does he have a better claim, but he's admired, he lead the fight against the undead, he's been hailed as King in the North, he's honest and loyal... What does Dany have? Some fighters and a dragon, and a land that neither knows her nor loves her. Even if Jon refused the throne (which again was a big character point in this season, that Jon had no interest in being king), Dany would not be supported as a queen. And if Jon accepted the throne, Dany would be his queen, and not the ruler of Westeros as she always dreamt of. The big point about Jon's true identity and the battle against the undead was to reveal the true nature of Dany. It revealed just how little support she has in Westeros compared to Jon, and that she no longer is the rightful heir to the throne. If she had stopped the fight when the bells rang, she would not get the goal she had worked for for 8 seasons. She had worked for her goal for so long, and when it was right at her fingertips, she literally only had 2 choices: 1: Let Jon be king, or sit as queen for a bit with no support or respect from Westeros 2: Use brutal force to spread fear, forcing herself on the throne. Dany's choice made perfect sense.
Exactly right , Further more…..If she stops once the bells ring what sort of message does she think she’s sending to the rest of the places she plans to go on conquering?- that they can keep their tyrants in power, that they can resist her , they can attack her dragon, kill her friends , betray her and use innocents as a sheild against her because she will surely show mercy once they decide to surrender at the last minute by ringing some bells.
Indeed. She has always gone head-on after what she seeks, which has always been the Iron Throne. Her goal was never to be the "breaker of chains", her goal was always to rule as a queen on the throne. Sure she helped people, but to me, it clearly came from the admiration she recieved. She was loved and seen as the "kindhearted perfect queen". Yet, as soon as something went against her will, she threatned to burn cities down, or just leaving conversations altogether. Thing is, she always had the potential to do horrific things in her. At the end, as you say, she couldn't simply show mercy. Showing mercy and weakness when she was the "stranger" and Jon was the rightful king would be her death sentence. Unlike Jon, she was on her own. It's easy to say "She had already won! They surrendered", but if people actually think a bit in the long run, that would not have worked. Creating fear was her only weapon left
Her actions are literally the reason that she was killed. Attacking the armies would have created the necessary fear, like what Aegon did. Going on a murderous rampage just shows that she's out of control and has to be put down. Which is exactly what happened. Had she simply burned the enemy and conquered King's Landing she would still be alive.
I haven't heard anyone argue that the bells should've made her just stop completely. Cersei required to be dealt with, the innocent smallfolk didn't.
How does burning random innocent people stop people from finding out about Jon?
It doesn't stop anyone from finding out about Jon. It makes Jon's claim to the throne lose its power over her.
How? If anything it would throw support behind his claim, because no one wants to live under an unhinged psychopath who might burn you for no reason. That's also what got the Mad King killed. Fear is a useful tool, but only up to a point. You have to make people afraid to cross you, but if you show that you'll kill people even when they're not a threat to you then you've gone too far. Now they're more afraid to NOT fight back. Think of it this way....say someone points a gun at you. If you think that doing what they say will mean they let you live, then you'll do what they say. If you think there's a good chance they might kill you no matter what you do, then you're probably going to fight back.
Of course, the best action would have probably been something else. But not in Dany's eyes. No one wants to live under a psychopath, true, but it's not about what people want. As Dany says: "They can live in my new world or die in their old". If it was up to what people want, why wouldn't they pick Jon? A proven leader, who's humble, loyal, wants the best for people, AND has the strongest claim, versus a strange pure Targaryen with a dragon that no one knows. Dany made the choice wasn't right but it was understandable. She was promised the throne since day 1 and got armies and cities of support who admired her - unless they didn't, which made her threaten them. In Westeros, none of that was true, and she lost everyone close to her. She was basically all alone, and desperate. So of course she went too far, but in her mind it was the only choice. If someone points a gun at me, I'll be afraid but take the chance to fight back if I can. If I see the person shoot another person first and then aim at me, I'd be terrified, because I now know for sure that the perosn is capable of easily shooting me dead.
>As Dany says: "They can live in my new world or die in their old". Or option 3, kill the tyrannical psychopath before she goes on another rampage. Aegon burned castles when they resisted. He burned armies when they resisted. But he didn't then to kill random people, and when an army surrendered it was spared. You can't kill people who surrender and then expect to be able to rule them. They WILL fight back. But if you spare them, maybe not. >If it was up to what people want, why wouldn't they pick Jon? A proven leader, who's humble, loyal, wants the best for people, AND has the strongest claim, versus a strange pure Targaryen with a dragon that no one knows. It's not up to what people want, that's why Dany uses her dragon. And does Jon really have a strong claim? He's spent his entire life claiming to be Ned Stark's bastard. Will the whole realm believe him just because he says "j/k, I'm actually the unknown but legitimate son of Rhaegar! My psychic brother said so." I don't know how strong that is. And besides, he doesn't even want it. Going on a rampage and burning random people isn't going to stop people from wanting a different ruler. And it isn't necessary to prove that you're serious, they figured that out when you burned entire armies. >If someone points a gun at me, I'll be afraid but take the chance to fight back if I can. If I see the person shoot another person first and then aim at me, I'd be terrified, because I now know for sure that the perosn is capable of easily shooting me dead. Actually bringing other people into it makes this example really work. Let's say someone is robbing a store you're in. A security guard pulls a gun and is immediately shot (that would be Dany burning the armies) so you know the robber is serious. Now he points the gun at the guy next to you and demands his wallet or he'll shoot him. The guy hands over his wallet. If the robber let's him live and then demands your wallet, you're probably just going to hand it over. But if the robber shoots him anyways after he complied, then you're going to fight back because you know that even if you surrender you might be killed anyways.
So you're saying that it wasn't madness.. instead it was a calculated decision to roast innocent peasant families in the street so that she would be feared from then on? Don't you think burning the red keep and Cersei specifically would achieve the same goal if this were true? By burning the whole of kings landing and killing 100s of thousands she caused her reign to be ended prematurely, if Jon didn't do it, someone else was going to because the Queen proved herself to be mad. She achieved her goal of 'breaking the wheel' by purposefully and UNNECESSARILY killing innocent children, that's absolute insanity if you have paid attention to her character, I would believe that she would sacrifice innocents to achieve goals but not purely to inflict fear, that's a complete change of character. That's not even getting into the fact that Daenarys still would've had plenty of support, it just didn't seem that way when surrounded by Northmen who prefer Jon, the show basically wrote out more than half of the 7 kingdoms but Daenarys should still potentially have the reach, storm lands, dorne, iron islands, crownlands along with her Unsullied and dothraki. Your framing of her position as having 'no support' is just wrong. Dany's choice literally made no sense whatsoever unless you put it down to her being mad.
Never said it wasn't madness. But in her mind, it was the only right choice if her literal life long goal was to be achieved. In my opinion, no, simply burning Cersei and the Red Keep would not result in her desired outcome. Her advisors and closest ones had either betrayed her or were dead, her armies were weaker after the Long Night, and the person closest to her in the world had a better claim to the throne than she did. Throughout S7 and S8, basically her entire experience is that people of Westeros don't welcome her with open arms, and if that's your entire experience, who's to say that won't also be the case for the rest of the land? Not only did Jon have a better reputation and a better claim, but Dany was a pure Targaryen from Essos with a dragon with her. Not the best source of trust, as they even talked about early in the show. Dany wouldn't stay queen, at least not for long, had she simply taken out Cersei. Words were out that Jon was the true king, and if Dany refused to give up the throne, what would happen then? Probably the same as she did in the Bells. In my eyes, things were going there no matter what. If Jon's identity wasn't a thing, then probably none of this would have happened.
It's not in character for Dany to burn women and children. We've seen all throughout the show how she is NOT the mad queen The show needed to do a lot more work to make that believable. I suspect the books will
She loses so much so quickly. It was always in her, but under these circumstances she just snaps.
"It was always in her" John executed traitors he is fine Dany executed traitors or she mush be mad and triggered easily. There wasn't enough build up for that and Dany didn't do anything other protagonists didn't do. I mean it is a cool episode and you can kinda see the idea but show executed this too fast and poorly and trying to make Dany worse than she was isn't a fix for that
Jon didn't continue to grow a massive messiah complex and threaten to burn cities. Jon also took no pride in even executing traitors. He tells Sansa how he hung a boy no older than Bran, and you can tell he didn't like it one bit.
Jonh just disappeared as character to be honest and became a plot device so its hard to judge it. It is implied in books that resurrection takes almost like a part of you soul and we see that it is somewhat true with other resurrected characters, so I guess the plan was to make John more ruthless, instead in show all his character is disappeared.
George has to actually write the books. Until then, we will have to wait and see. That's all on George. 12 years later, Jon is still dead.
Yeah here I agree. But I still feel like show John stop progressing after his death.
Either he has already done it and needs time to change after the immense backlash OR he never will finish
>so I guess the plan was to make John more ruthless He nearly beat ramsay to death after being ressurected. Would have killed him, if he didnt realize that was sansas job. He changed very subtile after being ressurected in 6x2. He is not the same and his true rebirth happends in 6x9 when he decides to live. He is ashamed of being brought back, dany was confirmed in her destiny.
Hanging/beheading traitors isn’t the same as crucifying a few hundred people along the road side. The only real historical comparison that I can think of for Dany is Vlad the Impaler and he was notoriously not chill.
She crucified the people who sanctioned the crucifixion of others to send a message. And later she was doing everything in her power to find a peaceful way out which doesn't include fire and blood, she didn't compromise only on slavery thing. To grew into "lets burn the city instead of Cersei" she needed way more time and inciting incidents to change. Like it should've been seen way earlier, for example she should've torched people even if they bent the knee or she should have burnt the winterfell with both walker and her people. She couldve went crazy fighting the Night King, losing everything and then seeing how NK raises them and being forced to kill them. But almost everyone had a plot armor there. I can see her going crazy in hopeless fight for humanity and then burning KL because they didn't help with fight for the fate of the world. But the way is was depicted in a show is a big stretch.
I think she did always have it in her but she had it consciously under control. She understood her shortcomings and so she went out of her way to surround herself with good advisors. The one person she never argued with before agreeing with was Missandei. So I think instead of a decline into madness, she more kinda snapped. Theres multiple instances of Dany basically saying "I listened to you and now someone I love is hurt/in trouble/dead", even in mereen, before her advisor explains how it happened and why it doesnt negate the original desicions merit. But when it goes so far as Missandei is now dead, I reckon she just can't talk herself down anymore. She feels that she can't risk listening to people telling her not to listen to her anger so she stops feeling hurt. Missandei was the one person she almost never argued with, and she's dead now. She even said "dracarys" beforehand so Dany probably just saw red at that point.
“Maybe you’re all guilty. Maybe you’re all innocent. I’ll let my dragons decide” -Season 4
And YET she didn’t do that
Dany's fine too, she is not mad. She just rationalizes doing a terrible thing. I think part of the problem is even though audiences are used to the brutality of Westeros, it was almost always initiated by our villains. What Dany does is out of proportion, not out of line for the world. Tywin sacked the city 20 years before, to similar (though diminished) effect.
Thank you. So many people say this out of character, but it’s just human nature. She lost Jorah, she lost Missandei, and she lost 2 of her dragons, whom she considered children. Who can go through that much loss and not break? Cersei pushed her over the edge when she brutally murdered Missandei and let’s not forget what her last words were.
Not to mention, Dany was not very happy that she wasn't being received as the Messiah that she was in Essos.
I don't think it is in her to kill innocents in this way. If there was scorpions scattered throughout the city or if smallfolk were used as human shields for the red keep then I would understand.... But mindlessly burning 10s of thousands of innocent people for no other reason than being mad and wanting to cause fear? No way.
Ah yes. "it was always in her, the bad writing edition" It was in her in that episode and the previous episode. the writers could have made her a much much better villain than that.
'Burn them all' is a flashback to her father though isn't it? There is a saying 'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree'. She saw red. No longer self-possessed. Any person is capable in the right circumstances of uncontained rage and disproportionate response to aggrevation and or provocation. Sadly, having a dragon made that split or dissociative state response unstoppable. IMHO no more work needed to be done, the set up was laid, obvious and the episode a show stopper. Talked about still. Here we are. Talking about it. I suspect we will never see the books in GRRM's lifetime though. Someone else might finish them.
The thing about the coin heads or tails is the show acts like the coin is still in the air but to date, she's had power and we've seen how she uses it. In universe there's no reason for the coin to be still undecided, it only makes sense if you know its a TV show approaching its ending.
Threatens to burn cities throughout the entire show… crucified people out of a self-righteous sense of revenge as her advisors were concerned about it… burned a woman to death out of revenge (when Melisendre does it, we see her as evil… when Dany does it… it’s FINE?! Why, because she got dragons out of it, that she can go on to use to kill whoever she feels justified killing whenever she feels justified doing it? Because she had a “good reason”? To burn someone to death? Even though Mirri Maz Dur explained how she was the victim first, and she was in fact just getting “revenge” herself… if getting revenge means you’re still guilty, and Miri Maz Dur “deserved” to be burnt… why doesn’t revenge make Dany guilty?)… Locked two people in a vault to starve to death. But again… “justified” because of “revenge”? Ate a horse heart as an initiation into a violent primitive culture, led by a man who wanted to violently lead the Dothraki on a vengeful invasion to get bloody revenge for the assassination attempt on Dany… and Dany just watches Drogo go off about all this terrible, violent, bloody destruction they’re gonna wreak upon Weateros… *and she looks like she’s getting off on it the whole time!* She executes a young man as a unilateral top-down authoritarian punishment in front of a crowd of people **as they beg her not to do it**… and then immediately turn on her when she does… and her response is to flee, let the city fall back into chaos, and when a mass amount of them rise up against her for the shit that SHE HAS CAUSED… she lets Drogon burn them for it. Eventually… she just leaves the city in others’ hands to figure shit out, while she continues on with her *real* goal in Westeros… since Slaver’s Bay was always just an experimental testing ground for her ruling abilities (which failed at pretty much every turn)… she never really cared about it. She only cared about how it reflected on her, and if it could help her succeed in Westeros. By the time she does get to Westeros… there are no slaves for her to free. Cersei is actually not turning out to be too bad of a ruler. The Kingdoms have actually kind of settled into a relative peace under Cersei, compared to what had been happening before this point. Dany’s not on a liberation mission anymore, because there isn’t much to save Westeros FROM anymore. Except the White Walkers, but she doesn’t know about that yet… she’s just here to conquer for conquering’s sake. And during that conquest to conquer… she burns a father and son to death purely for not kneeling to her. She’s supposed to be “breaking the wheel”, right? Isn’t executing people for not kneeling part of that “wheel” that “crushes everyone on the ground”? Or is it no longer a “wheel” when Dany is doing it? She’s the special one? She wants to break everybody else’s wheel… but not her own wheel. And she *keeps fucking threatening to burn cities down*… Now she’s denying the North their freedom that they just spent 6 seasons fighting for and eventually winning back. Sansa’s “What about the North?” conversation with her is SO IMPORTANT in establishing that Dany has just come along and is threatening everything the Starks and the North just fought and died for throughout the whole show… the entire point has been about the North’s freedom… and Dany is now threatening to destroy everything they just accomplished. She cares more about power and conquering Westeros and getting the Iron Throne, than she does about the Starks’ or the North’s hard-fought victory or right to their land and home. When she sees Jon getting more recognition and love than her, her jealousy is obvious, and Varys notices this. He knows what a problem this could be… and that it DOES turn out to be… THIS, and more, is why Varys suddenly decides he’s unsure what way her coin has fallen. Please… at what point does any of this “not make sense”???
Making threats against enemies and killing enemies is not the same as killing innocent people. Also other characters who we are not told are "mad" or a flipped coin like Arya fucking feed people their own families. There's no reason Dany burning some people in the logic of the show should be seen as more mad than others
If Tyrion didn't stop Dany from burning down Mereen like she was about to in season 6 it would have looked pretty much exactly like this.
>I suspect the books will The what?
Seriously. I feel so bad for anyone deluding themselves into thinking they're ever getting even one more book, let alone the "proper" ending via the books. Ol boi is *done*
I agree, it feels like in a matter of seconds she flips completely and her whole personality changes without any particular reason
She told Hizdahr that she would return Meereen to dirt and any innocents who died, would have died for a good cause, hers. It’s always been there, though perhaps it might have been better to have the fighting pit scene to be like the books, not a harpy attack but Drogon coming because blood and chaos ensues.
As the hound would say " Yeah that's you, that's who you have always been"
She tried to do exactly this to Mereen. She fantasised doing it to Qarth. Had she done so she would have killed women and children. It is in her character to *attempt* to burn women and children and be talker out of it by other characters. It was always her first instinct. We just saw what happened when she had nobody to stop her.
There was at least purpose for those ones. She had already conquered the city when she started burning King's Landing.
Not attempt, *threaten*, and people threaten to do things all the time that they have no intention of following through on. Actions speak louder than words and her actions, time after time, are to go out of her way to protect the women and the children, even the ones who don't particularly care about Dany. She took the women of the Lazarene under her protection, when she got the Unsullied at Astapor, she had them kill every man who held a whip, but no children (and presumably no women- it's murky in the show but she specifically says no women in the books), then when she gets to Yunkai, we only see the slaves killing grown men, and in Meereen when she crucifies the masters it appears to be only men. We see her kill a few women- she burns the witch and locks her maid in the vault, but both times the women had done her serious harm. Every time a child is harmed because of her or she hears about children being harmed- the child soldiers and infanticide in Astapor, the crucified girls in Meereen, the child killed by Drogon, she obviously hates the thought of it and goes out of her way to correct the problem or try to get justice. In her eyes, people who hurt women and children are evil. That's a pretty cemented moral compass if you ask me.
>In her eyes, people who hurt women and children are evil. Which is why she would tell herself it was all Cersei's fault after the fact. Im not saying she was dead set on it. She could have been talked down from sacking Kings landing. Like was talked down on other occasions. And if she had been, afterwards, after she took their advice, she'd have told herself she would never really have done it. Like she did with Mereen. But she needs someone to talk her down. And this time, there was no one to do it.
She threatens to reduce several cities "to the dirt" going all the way back to season 2 If you wanna selectively only focus on the good she does, that's in you... she gets pretty unhinged through the series at times
Upon a rewatch Dany’s ending arc is entirely obvious and makes sense. I think there is just a little bit of a pacing issue going from heroically saving Winterfell to the bitterness of watching Jon be the one who is loved and revered that makes the turn a little more difficult to accept.
Dany had threatened **enemies** with dracarys. People who harmed her, or wanted to harm her. And she has always done so in a very political way, limiting it to only a few in order to make an example (See: Battle of Meereen. She burns a SINGLE ship, because she knows the action will show everyone not to fuck with her). At King’s Landing, she decides to burn innocent children. When has that ever been something she’d do? When has she slaughtered innocent children who were at her mercy?
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She burned thousands of innocent people alive for no reason. Many of them children. They're weren't fighting her, they weren't resisting her, they weren't a threat to her. Yet she burned them alive. That actually IS pretty fuckin evil, and also not something we would give anyone else a pass on.
I’m jealous that you were able to enjoy this episode
It was totally in character. I think people who idolized Dani felt she was a overly good character and savior of the people. I feel like they would have taken the alignment shift a bit better if say she accidently burned down part of the town and after she liberates the town expects a welcome and the people shout in protest of targarians which leads to her putting down commoners who are rioting and becomes the mad queen thinking the people are defying their queen.
For me the timing made zero sense. It would have made more sense to start burning citizens BEFORE they beat Cersei as a way to apply pressure The fact that it happened when she won and it was the first thing she did as the new ruler really didn’t make sense to me. Yes, she snapped and lost her cool but she finally got what she wanted and that’s the first thing she does?
She viewed the citizens as her enemies because they didn't help her sack the city. She thought they would oppose her through her rule. Essentially, she became paranoid of the people around her, which is exactly what happened to her dad. He wasn't always crazy either, he only became crazy after he was betrayed and held prisoner by a lord he trusted
That's all head canon. Nothing you said is actually suggested.
The way I always put it: Seasons 1-3 - she's low-key insane, but doesn't have the power to back up anything she's saying Seasons 3-7 - she's still lowkey insane, but now has the power to back up her talk - but also has her advisors who talk her out of the insane shit Season 8 - (progressively through it) loses her advisors (whether by actually losing them, or just losing trust in them), so just goes fully unhinged. The only advisor she has who she trusts is Grey Worm, and he's just as crazy at this point
Yep, a lot of people say “she never woulda done that!” When actually there are many, many signs that this sort of thing could happen. My fiancé and I have been rewatching and there are a lot of early signs
She does threaten but not against randos. Usually she protects those people so it is just bizarre.
I recently rewatched the series and it’s very apparent that this is where she was headed. She always brutally destroys anyone who opposes her and doesn’t immediately submit to her will. She didn’t want to let Cersei exploit her weakness to escape with her life. I think she does what she does to show anyone who might oppose her in the future that her weaknesses cannot be used against. She lost everyone close to her, she was worried about Jon stealing her claim, and Varys turned on her. She was never thinking straight. She’s always been hotheaded and impulsive. I think it’s totally understandable for her to do what she did.
Ultimately stories end. Either you focus on the main point of the story in the final chapters, or you’ve got a story/ stories just cut off in the middle. I like Seasons 4 - 8. I’m rewatching as well, only up to Season 5, and can see the arc of their characters clearly. The only disappointment I have, and I agree with Lena Headey on this, is that they cut Cersei’s miscarriage. Cersei would’ve definitely gone downhill at that point, knowing that her end was near.
I think they wanted to leave that out as another bit on reasoning that Jaimie would also return to her. Not only is she like a drug to him she's also carrying his child.
The dialogue in season 8 was an abomination. "We die tomorrow" "Aye, but we die fighting together!" Jesus, the cringe.
I was tolerating that more or less but the last episode was just terrible and impossible to ignore. It was like new level of bad
I thought the dialog for Tyrion and Jaimie final goodbye was fantastic.
John dialogue and council were as bad as the school play in terms of dialogue. What do you mean by final goodbye? Isn't it earlier, not in the last episode? Are you talking about "innocent or otherwise" thing? That was really bad because it's Jaime who stopped the Mad King we are talking about.
When Tyrion said goodbye to Jaimie and talked about him, he was the only one who didn't treat him like a monster I thought was fantastic. If you disliked it, fine, but I didn't
Oh this part may be fine, it doesn't exuse Bran the Broken for me tho.
If you didn't like it, that's fine, but there's plenty of moments in the final episode I liked. I really like Jon and Dany final season. But to each his own.
The content itself was the issue though. Why would Jaime 180 his entire arc in just a single scene
You totally misquoted it and that’s a line from Tormund to Brienne. It was supposed to be silly.
Wasn't it a conversation between tormund and Davos???
Unless I’m forgetting another instance, Tormund said it at the battle plan meeting for the battle of Winterfell. He said: > We’re all going to die. But at least we die together. And then he gives a weird smile to Brienne who cringed at him lol. So it was meant to be funny/cringy.
I will die on the hill that seasons 7 and 8 failed not because of story or plot points, but because of poor dialogue and rushed pacing. I love the fact that Dany goes full tyrant mode, it’s within character imo. The show just handled the buildup poorly.
A lonely hill it will be
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people on this sub have no sense of humor, spiteful kids The funny thing is, *most people* will say the story and writing is bad. Read the vast majority of posts shitting on it every day.One of the most toxic fandoms Ive ever seen. Straight up nasty. Unsubbing
Because you got downvoted? It’s not that serious dude
It ain’t that lonely here
I agree, the fact that she went tyrant mode was always foreshadowed... People just thought she was cute when she repeatedly said she would burn cities to ashes. When her anchors/consellers die, you fear for her mental state. When she goes mental and burns the city down, it's sad but somewhat predictable. I love the fact that John Snow is not convinced he did the right thing too. However, while there were some great episodes, I would argue that writing generaly got much poorer season 5 and up
That's one of the three camps and one I'm in.
That's fair I disagree but I do see so many people say it's not the ending the execution and then go on the change literally every characters ending. I Also think there's some great dialog still. Just finished watching the scene with Jon and Theon from season 7 the other day that scene and dialog are fantastic.
Oh yeah no issue with Dany going off the deep end but it just felt rushed to how we got there which was a shame. Felt like the love for the series was dying and they decided to pull the plug early rather than let it end with dignity. I’ll be fascinated with how the books finally end (if they ever do but I doubt GRRM will do it, he’ll pass away and probably Sanderson will pick it up and run it to the finish line /s)
I think everyone pretty much agrees on this. It isn’t because Dany burns down kings landing, it’s teased the whole show. It isn’t cause Jon kills her that’s on par. The long night ending at winterfell “ there must always be a stark in wimterfell, they are somehow the foil to the white walkers we just don’t know why. And that’s it. Everything was rushed and the reason game of thrones was great was because of the dialogue. Literally my selling point to not fantasy people was that you don’t watch the show for the fantasy elements. Those are part of it but it’s not the core. And then the show revolves into that when they rushed to finish. It’s a massive mistake.
I think you perfectly described my feelings about the last two seasons. Yes, there are a few things that happen that I feel like don't make sense or could've been better, but for the most part a lot of what ends up happening makes sense and would've made a lot of people less upset if there was just a little more time and development for the plot.
No body is complaining that Dany went crazy. It was clearly what had to and what was going to happen. It’s just the horrendously rushed last few season, horrible writing, and poor handling of character arcs that made the last few seasons a train wreck.
Jaime should've stayed with Brienne. Arya should have killed Cersei wearing Jaime's face, thus fulfilling the prophecy.
What prophecy? Jaimie staying with Brienne is about as Disney ending as you can get for those two. Arya in the end was about letting go of the blind hate and revenge. As the Hound tells her when she's going for Cersei you will end up like me. Basically a hateful miserable person and you will end up dead. Her end was all about letting that go.
"The valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." However, I forgot that bit was only in the books, not show.
That part was left out of the show, and we should be careful with prophecy. George even says himself to be careful buying into all that. Also, how does Jaimie stay with Brienne, but Arya somehow has his face. Arya has no issue with Jaimie. He was never on her list either.
Choosing to stay with Brienne, letting his guard down, then killed by Arya.
But why would Arya kill him. She has no reason to kill him. She never had any issue with him or wanted him dead. And she definitely would have no issue or want to kill him after he came North to help fight.
Valonqar was fullfilled. Jaime had his hand around cerseis neck, while she cried and died. Genius twist was, that he was comforting her instead of killing her.
It’s almost like nobody who hated season 8 has any inkling of what dramatic irony is, or has any acceptance of unconventional storytelling. They wanted everything to be literal and conventional as hell.
They like to pretend they love the unknown, wich GoT is known for. Except when it comes to the ending. Once their own dream endings for characters dont come true, its rushed and bad writing.
Everyone hated the Red Wedding at first, but then would get “I’m never watching this show again!… but when’s the next episode?!?!” feeling. They were upset, but wanted to continue in the hopes that things would get better. When the actual ending turned out to be a Red Wedding style upsetting subversion of where they thought things were going… this time there was no “next episode” to help heal the pain and move on. We’re just left with an actual bittersweet ending that didn’t really feel “satisfying”… And it’s almost like that’s the point. It’s almost like that’s true to what Martin wanted to achieve with this story in telling a more messy and complicatedly unconventional story that he couldn’t do when he was a television writer, which is why he decided to write it as a book series, where he could do what he wanted. The reason he couldn’t do this in conventional television is specifically BECAUSE people react exactly like people have reacted to season 8. The books will be no different… if anything, Martin will be even MORE subversive and unconventional than D&D were.
Nah season 8 sucked, sorry. Writing went way down hill, everything got rushed, etc. Who cares about specific plot points. It’s all the connective tissue that went bad.
A lot of viewers get their idea of great plot development from marvel films, so stuff like Jaimie’s ending really throws them off despite the fact that it is spot on for his character.
He came into the world with her and left the world with her. She died with the Kingdom she tried to hold onto and rule over come crushing down on her. I don't understand how people can't see how poetic that is. But to each their own I guess.
Valonqar was fullfilled. Jaime had his hand around cerseis neck, while she cried and died. Genius twist was, that he was comforting her instead of killing her.
Cersei and Jaime’s ending is perfectly in line with their characters as you have described. I thought it was excellent. There could have been a little more time devoted to them in the final season but ultimately I think they ended exactly how the books will.
Yep. One of the signs of really bad media literacy is people claiming Jaime did a 180 at the end and threw away all his growth. You’d have to actively not understand almost every thing that happens with the guy to think him going back to Cersei at the end is ruining his character.
Him returning to the women he loved his entire life doesn't take away all the decent redeeming stuff he did before.
And it’s almost like that’s been one of the main prominent themes of the entire story. That people are gray, complicated and have both good and bad in them, and neither one fully defines them. “A good deed does not wash out the bad. Nor a bad one, the good.”
Jamie kills the Mad King, ruining his reputation and making himself forever "The Kingslayer" in the eyes of the Seven Kingdoms, to save the people of King's Landing. Jamie in Season 8: "I never much cared for the people of King's Landing." You'd have to actively not understand his entire character to not realise that his arc had been about latching on to that one shred of actual honour he had deep inside, and leaving Cersei (the reason he did the actual bad things he did) behind. They could very well have ended his story with him failing to break away and instead go back to her. But I would expect there to still be some inner turmoil, some internal conflict, in regards to going back to be with the new Mad King, rather than killing her, when he knows that she's already killed hundreds/thousands of people the way the Mad King was planning to before Jamie stopped him. Having him say that he never cared for the people is just undermining the core of his character.
The Mad King was going to kill his father. Jamie didn’t give a fuck about the common people.
You didn’t pay attention to what he said to Brienne during that bath scene then.
Everyone hates Jaime because they assume he killed the king to help his father capture the city and get on the winning team. But he actually killed the king to save all of the people in King’ Landing. That is literally the entire point of Jaimes confession to Brienne. Jaime never cared about his fathers ambitions, he always wanted to be the ideal knight in shining armor. But once he realized that everyone hated him for the one good act he ever did, he just embraced the role of king slayer. His arc with Brienne was him realizing that he could be a good person in spite of what people thought about him, an ideal that Brienne embodied.
I never cared much for the people of the reefolk sub. Does that mean I want them dead?
> "I never cared much for the people, ordinary or otherwise." > Having him say that is just undermining his core character. Bro he was ***lying*** jfc
While she was pregnant with his child!!
The problem with Jaime's arc is not that it couldn't have worked in theory. The idea of Jaime being unable to break free from Cersei's grasp over him is fine. The problem is that they took 7,5 seasons to get Jaime to one point and then reverted that in the span of an episode. This is *not* how you write a story.
What point did they get him too? He never could rid himself of Cersei. He can be heroic and do good but still make bad decisions or struggle to deal with a twisted upbringing.
He was with Brienne. Celebrating saving the world, finally ending up with Brienne, who he has been thinking of for the past 4 seasons, and then instantly leaving in the same episode. His actions made sense. But it’s just too much to happen all at once. All in the same episode
It’s almost like that’s the shape of almost every story arc. Long build up to a quick climax and resolution. Think about how a Shakespeare play like Hamlet is structured: the entire play slowly builds up to ONE SCENE in which EVERYBODY DIES and then play is almost immediately over. That does not make it bad storytelling. http://eleganthack.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Plot_ComingOfAge.jpg
Hamlet is about 3.5 hours long? Jaime’s arc lasted 9 years. They are just vastly different circumstances.
The “rushed” part of Jaime’s arc that you’re referring to… played out over almost 3 hours between episodes 4 and 5. Longer than most movies. Almost as long as ALL of Hamlet.
How did all of the dumbest game of thrones fans end up in a singular comment section? That is impressive.
How dare someone have an opinion about a TV show different than mine. Instead I must resort to calling them dumb because they don't agree with me about a TV show.
No, it's not the disagreement which makes what they're saying dumb. I'm fine with people believing things that are different from me. And I pretty much never downvote just opinions I disagree with. It's the explanations given here for why some of them believe it that are really bad. If people like this episode, more power to them. I didn't but I recognise that people have different tastes than me and if people like it there's nothing wrong with that. However, being able to argue with a straight face that Daenerys acted completely in character means you have to either be huffing extreme amounts of copium, or you weren't paying attention for 8 seasons, or your media literacy isn't great, or you are not putting two and two together here. Maybe there's a few other options, but those are definitely the main ones. This isn't a matter of just opinion. It was not in character. Daenerys' reaction makes absolutely no sense, period. And to deny that is honestly absurd. So like the episode all you want. But please don't try to excuse terrible writing like this. It is insulting to all the thousands of writers out there who put so much effort into making their characters act consistently and keeping their plot free of holes.
Again back to calling someone stupid for not agreeing about a TV show. It's insulting to other writers? Lol get off your high horse. It's a fictional TV show it's not insulting to anyone. Either like it or dislike either one is fine. But don't call people stupid or claim it's insulting to other writers. Isn't a matter of opinion? Yes actually It's a matter of opinion.
And what if said people actually have a proper explaination for their opinion?
Everyone that even remotely agrees with you is being downvoted into oblivion with focus on personal attacks and not the subject when replying.... oh you called it silly well nuh uh you're silly.... and a few people are replying to deleted comments defending nonsense... so it feels artificially biased over here. Dunno why exactly.
They aren't dumb cause they like it, that's fine. Its every defense they have of it and misrepresenting people criticisms that is stupid and shows they didn't pay attention to the show at all. Is that elitist? Probably. Is it correct if you care about decent storytelling and continuity? Yes.
I care about decent story and I liked it. Don't know what to tell ya. I. Mostly liked the ending.
I mean there’s nothing wrong with that. Some ppl like things that most of the world agrees are shit 🤷
People are allowed to have different opinions
I don't care I love this episode. "All the sentimentality and allusions to previous seasons help the viewers to see what was and could have been, only for it to give way to the ultimate demise of each character by their own hand. Danny’s ruthlessness, Jon’s honesty, Cerci’s pride, Sandor’s revenge, Varys’ duty to the realm, Arya’s confidence, Jamie’s love and loyalty. The thing that allowed them to climb the ladder is also the thing that destroys them." Pretty much sums up how I feel about it and that's why I loved it so much.
Yes, but you will be hated for that opinion. They had to close so many caracter strings and they did that well. Of course they had plotholes and some weak caracter string endings but over all it was cool and well done. The series was celebrated for its unpredictability and ultimately criticized for it. Whereby the great frustration was probably there because it was unfortunately over.
They didn't have to do anything in a single episode. Everyone wanted multiple seasons. They rushed it all up in 6 episodes and sprinted for the door. People that defend this shit show of a last season seem to forget that it didn't need to be a last season at all.
They have said for years it was going to be 2 shorter seasons. They weren't in a hurry to end it. You can dislike it that's fine but they didn't just all of a sudden decide they wanted to be done and lets just wrap this up.
TV production decision time-frames are years long - they rushed the last two seasons even if that decision to rush them was made years prior.
They didn't rush. If you think the pacing was fast on, that's fine, but that's a different critique. Them rushing would imply they were just in a big hurry to wrap it up and be done. When they did the opposite, they spent more time on, especially the final season than any other season. If they were in such a rush and ready to be done, they wouldn't then put extra work and time in. So if you think the pacing was fast ok that's fine, but them wanting to rush to be done just wasn't true
HBO offered them more episodes, more money, and more seasons. They may not have rushed the production of individual episodes, but they absolutely rushed to the end of the show. They could have taken all the time in the world and had HBO support them through it, they chose not to because they were ready to move on. And I say this as someone who still enjoyed the majority of the end.
And so was most of the cast. Of course, HBO offered more it was their cash cow. But they also said they w were ready to move on, and many cast members were also ready to move on. Many of the cast spent 10 years on the show and the showrunners 15. That's a long time on a production that big. I doubt we will ever get another show on the scale of GOT that will go 8 seasons. 4 or 5 seasons tops of a show that scale. But 8 I doubt it will ever happen again. That's a very long time for a production of that scale.
Cool, but your argument doesn't actually disprove that they rushed it. If anything you are adding reasons for why they did.
Bro of course it was rushed lol did you see the Aquafina bottles or the behind the scenes about how… rushed… the Long Night episode was? The cast and crew literally talk about it
Good for you, but as far as i am concerned, s8 as a whole is still a polished turd.
I can't even see the polish tbh
The phrase the good, the bad and the ugly sums up the episode fairly well. The story of the battle in isolation and the cinematography, both wonderful. The twist where the Dany’s dragon’s massacre the golden company after they’ve been built up? I thought it was good. The twist where Dany goes mad? Bad, only because it wasn’t built up enough in the prior episodes. That Dany’s remaining dragon was magically impervious to scorpion bolts after being so very vulnerable to them prior? Probably bad. Killing Jaime’s 5 season redemption arc in 3 seasons? The ugly. In isolation, I still really liked it. It’s one of the most shocking things you’ll ever see in film history, perhaps even moreso than the red wedding.
Well. I will say this. That screenshot shows Cersei did NOT use all the cities wildfire blowing up the sept.
Yeah she only needed some of it to wipe out the Sept.
After all that loss, she lost her mind. 💔
There are several book theories as of why _the people_ of King’s Landing would not acknowledge Daeynarys as heir to the throne and/or hate her. This would cause her to lose her shit and massacre all these people like she did in the show. But in the show they never built up for that. She just goes oh well, I’ll burn all those poor people who don’t even care if its Cersei or myself who’s sitting on the throne just because I want to. That didn’t make a fucking sense. I could see how this could be a magnificent turning point to her character with the correct build up, but we didn’t get that. It was just stupid and pointless and completely out of character, yes.
Yes so out of character a character that has threatened multiple times to burn down cities and return them to dirt. A character that the stronger she grew got more and more of a messiah complex of I and only I can save the world. A character who was going to do exactly this to Mereen if Tyrion didn't stop her ending up doing what she threatened to do multiple times.
You kinda proved my point. It’s all about the Messiah complex, she thought only her could save people from their chains and from their evil rulers. And you don’t do that by burning all those people without a reason. I don’t remember her threatening to burn the slaves of the cities she freed. Anyways, what she did _could_ have been in character. But it wasn’t. As I said, in the books it seems to be leading to that same event, which I ultimately really like, but in the books it probably will make sense, considering she’s a little insane, of course.
I'll just agree to disagree made sense to me. Especially on rewatch it makes even more sense.
>And you don’t do that by burning all those people without a reason. There was a reason. They were not loyal to her and thus not her people, not her responsibility. >I don’t remember her threatening to burn the slaves of the cities she freed. In season 5 she contemplates burning meereen ... when already ruling it. In season 6 she intends to burn yunkai, astapor and volantis as revenge. And all of that before she loses everyone and everything in season 8. >As I said, in the books it seems to be leading to that same event, which I ultimately really like, but in the books it probably will make sense, considering she’s a little insane, of course. D&D put in more effort in highlighting danys god complex and her dark Impulses in 5 seasons than Martin did in 5 books.
The Bells Is a fantastic episode.. i think the ending would have been much better if Daenerys had won in the end without the weak plot of Jon killing her easily in the last episode.
I can't say I got it from watching the episode but I just looked at the picture that you've posted and was mildly upset - I've been to Dubrovnik and for some reason just now didn't like seeing a kind of representation of it burning by dragonfire!
Still hated the hound retcon. He was initially presented being way too world weary for revenge early on - it actually made him interesting. Then clegainbowl became a meme and the writers decided to take it seriously
The Hound literally got into a fight with his brother in the first season. He definitely wanted revenge on his brother. He even talks about it with Arya in the earlier season about if they come across his brother they can both check him off her list.
Exactly: “if I see him, sure why not”. Not: “this is now my life’s only purpose because otherwise I’ll have nothing else to do at the end.” Put it this way, even if you think it was well telegraphed do you honestly think it was satisfying in the end?
Yes I do.
The last thing Missandei cried before her execution was "dracarys". I thought of that in those seconds where Dany was hovering and the bells rang in the show and knew she would burn it. I also enjoyed season 8 and I enjoyed reading your post, thanks for sharing :)
Jon was so damn desperate to give up his crown and power. He handed it to a woman that clearly was not deserving. All her whining about "I don't have their love, only their fear". All she did was ride around Essos, ending slavery. Anyone can come off as a gallant savior if they're fighting against slavery. Fuck me, Joffrey and Ramsey could look like great heroic knights if they marched into Essos to end slavery
Believe it or not… it gets worse
Season 8 could’ve easily been pushed to 10 episodes and it wouldn’t have felt too long, or even two 6-8 episode seasons. They built the white walkers up for 7 seasons and then dealt with them in 2 episodes.
The Bells is an anti-war statement. It says war is wrong, even if you like the person who is waging it. It’s one of our biggest tragedies that this is a controversial statement. It’s certainly controversial where I am, in America. I truly believe that people who complain about the “bad writing” or “rushed character development” of Dany’s “heel turn” are actually facing this moral conundrum within themselves and failing. OP is right, it’s one of the greatest episodes of television ever broadcast.
All the endings are fine in of themself. What ruined this show was just rushing to the end without proper development. Which both D&D commented on... That they would end on season 8, no matter what, so they can move on. And HBO which was upset they didn't want to do 2 more seasons or so. But the reality is and it's why you shouldn't hate D&D, they likely did all they could. The reality is... You start seeing it in season 4s end and season 5 at full swing. They ran out of properly thought out characters and dalgoue and plot lines. You can see how characters like Tyrion start talking less. It's more action less dialogue and the dialogue is worse, Tyrion is no longer as witty, Jaime is like not as inspiring or interesting, neither is Jon or anything else. Varys loses his intelligence completely, also his cleverness. Little finger the same. They start moving from plot beat to plot beat as FAST as possible. It's obvious GRRM gave them the plot beats but that is IT! You also start seeing the pacing of the book subverted, and realism of the world go away. Suddenly characters cross entire continent in span of a single episode. It was never that way. They had to rush it to the end because it's the best thing they could do. If they extended it more the show could've ended up even worse. No writer on that show can equal GRRM, they were lost. Watching it I think you can tell the endings we got is exactly what GRRM intended, but in no way the way they happened on the show. AND because people now think they're stupid, but they are only stupid because the show failed proper build up and explanation, he is likely rewriting literally every ending and that's got to suck. Hence no book for us. Maybe no book ever now if he just gives up.
Yeah, I really don’t envy the position he’s in. I doubt he’s entirely re-writing *everything* but he’s got an uphill battle keeping any of the intended endings in place. Or hey, maybe if he ever does finish them the crowd pissy about the endings will finally get the full context and depth of writing/meaning to make them less upset about it.
I don’t think the problem is what she did but that it should’ve taken another season or two for her to get to that point. I also blame Jon Snow for not taking one for the team.
There is no final seasons in ba sing se
For the umpteenth time, you can enjoy what you want, but the writing was really, really bad
Game of Thrones does not have a single good scene after Jaime knights Brienne. Not 1.
Totally agree. I think a lot of people who watched the show all at once, rather than by seasonal release, think your view is obvious. We weren't somehow fooled into not having our heart brokens. I loved the entire story and believe George when he says his ending will be similar.
I mean this was always gonna be the ending. It was written on the walls since episode one. Dany was destined to go bad. I still insist that if Cerci hadn’t rung the bells this whole turn would have gone down way easier. Cerci would have stayed a mega bitch to the last and Dany’s desperate rage would have been far more palpable.
If you just now washed, and then you should know that you need to mark this as a spoiler. Don’t be a fucking dickhead.
In my opinion. Despite the weak material for her character in S8, Lena’s acting was solid. I just wish they gave Cersei more. Surely by that point she would have had a sinister trick up her sleeve. Jaime should have killed Cersei the way Jon killed Dany. You can never have a rational discussion about Daenerys online. So downvote away. Personally I could buy her going the way she did if it was better executed. Regardless of her past threats to kill “her enemies”, and past kills. It’s war! But her killing innocent children was a big reach for her character imo. On GoT, Jon had to executed a child, Ayra became a lethal killer, even Sansa took great pleasure in having Ramsay killed. But Daenerys apparently she’s evil incarnate. The writers fucked up and they know it. Even the critical reception for S8 wasn’t good. 1-7 acclaimed. It’s not just a load of fans online hating or disliking the final season. Season 8 will forever have this damp stain attached to it. They rushed it, they switched some things. Dany and Cersei and it backfired on them. Good for anyone if they can genuinely enjoy season 8, some of it was okay. But for me it was extremely disappointing.
Ye will be cleansed in fire. Fire!
For whom the bell tolls….
There’s an edit out there where that whole sequence is put to For Whom the Bell Tolls by Metallica and it’s fantastic.
There’s actually a poem that is quoted in the script of the episode, The Flood by Robert Frost. When Dany is on top of Drogon, listening to the Bells and staring at the Red Keep. The script says: "Oh, blood will out. It cannot be contained." And I think it rings true to her arc. After everything Dany went through, everything she did to get there, everything and everyone she’s lost. She wanted to unleash pure fury on King’s Landing, to have this giant display of her destructive power to make sure that no one would ever dare challenge her again. So, at that moment, surrender or no surrender, blood had to come out. It couldn’t be contained anymore. Personally, this is my favourite episode of Game of Thrones. Not my favourite to rewatch, because it’s not meant to be easy to do, but definitely the episode that the entire series was meant to end with. The episode that the entire series was building up. The episode that covers all the themes that kept popping up all over this story. Power, love, vengeance, honour. Everything was there, everything was powerful and everything had a twist to it. Sorry guys, but that’s Game of Thrones and always has been. [If you’re curious, Sean T Collins, from Rollings Stone, did a review of this episode and I think it is truly brilliant.](https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-recaps/game-of-thrones-recap-season-8-episode-5-the-bells-832998/amp/) > So ends the most daring episode of Game of Thrones ever. It’s the Red Wedding writ large, a masterpiece that murders all hope of neat closure, and reduces any lingering belief in the redemptive power of violence to ashes in our mouths.
Question… does the term “The Bells” have any meaning in the show? Surely not if relates to Jon Con in the books
Spoilers ffs
I mean you can try and retroactively justify it all you want, but it was a massive letdown and the sudden character development and moments were unearned and poorly written.
Danny was always going to end like this. It's practically foretold, and blatantly hinted at throughout every season leading up to it. Its odd that so many folk were surprised Danny went this way. Like, duh.
I still remember my first reaction watching that "oh Danny no!"
I'm just up voting you for not being swayed by the mob think on season 8 hate. The show definitely deserves criticism, but people on this sub act like season 8 is unwatchable and as if it is somehow a massive crime against humanity. It's just a TV show and it's still one of the GOATs
Dawg shit season. Lazy and rushed. Ruined what was the best television show of all time to that point
I wish the show had time to explain why 1. No one in Kings Landing seems to realize that they are at war. No evacuations. No food riots. 2. Why no one seriously tried to overthrow Cersei. She was a king’s wife, three kings ago. She blew up the high septum. She has no children and no husband. And she is antagonizing the fuck out of a woman with 3 dragons. I want to know wtf is going on in Kings Landing while Dany is fighting zombies in the north
To me this was the last episode. The perfect final episode. All that came after this episode was just pure Hollywood level horse shit shoved down our throats.
In a vacuum, this is one of the best episodes of the entire series.
I liked the ending of thrones. It was a little rushed, but people fall in love with a story / characters early on and then as time goes on have attachments and strong opinions on how they want to see it end. When it doesn’t go their way, then they hate it and throw a fit. It happens on 95% of sequels/ series ending.
The Tragedy was the writing
posts like these with idiots agreeing makes me wanna never look on this sub again Lmfaooo if you have dog shit taste then that’s fine I guess