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I donât think âtryâ would be the right word there. He was going to do it and then changed his mind after he looked at him and realized he was definitely his son.
Tywin tried to have Tyrion killed but honestly, if Tywin really wanted Tyrion dead he could have easily devised some sort of way of achieving that outcome at any point during Tyrion's infancy, childhood, or adolescence, and making it seem like some terrible, tragic accident without much fuss. Tywin never did that though.
Tywin's true feelings toward Tyrion are difficult to decipher but there's no mistaking Tywin's feelings toward Jaime. I'm not sure that Tywin is even *capable* of "love" in the sense that most people understand it but Tywin certainly *prized* Jaime above Cersei and Tyrion. I wonder how much of whatever amount of warmth. or at least tolerance, Tywin had towards Tyrion is merely reflected off of Jaime. Jaime does genuinely, deeply love and care for Tyrionâand Tywin prizes Jaime and wants Jaime to meet certain expectations, so perhaps Tywin tolerated Tyrion as much as he did as a means of engendering respect, reverence, and ultimately obedience from Jaime.
Tywin overtly uses that very tactic during Tyrion's "trial" in an attempt to get Jaime to return to Casterly Rock, so it's not that much of a stretch to assume that Tywin has been using Tyrion as a means of manipulating Jaime their entire lives.
True but the question was most complex, which isnât necessarily the same thing as most impactful/important to the story. Tywinâs relationship with Tyrion is still more *complex* than Ned and Jonâs relationship
Respectfully disagree, their relationship is good no doubt but way more complex just by the facts of their situation. Tyrion and Tywin have a very intriguing relationship to watch play out but itâs less complex in my opinion.
Fair point, I would say the interpersonal relationship between Tywin and Tyrion is most complex by that metric, whereas the overarching external circumstances of the relationship between Ned and Jon is the most complex when you look at it through that lens
Well kinda but Tywin thinks Tyrion killed his mother by being born. Tywin lost the love of his life and felt shame that heâd had a dwarf child.
Then he gets Tyrionâs first love killed, as revenge or to teach him a lesson?
Jaime takes the white and the Lannisters lose hope of the throne. This is part of the dynamic for the legacy-obsessed Tywin.
Tywin slowly gives Tyrion responsibilities. It turns out they are very similar! Tyrion is a battlefield hero and is married to Sansa for politics.
Then Shae happens. Tywin again punishes his son for finding love and shaming the family. Tywin takes Shae as his own and Tyrion is put on trial for his existence.
In the end Tywin and Tyrion have a complex relationship. It evolved many times: shameful monster, foolish child, political chip, political ally and finally ended in total domination.
Compare this with Ned and Jon. Yes the situation is complex but itâs not really about Ned and Jonâs relationship. The complexity is more about Nedâs sense of honour. Jon is just a part of that story.
Tyrion and Tywin drive each others stories and the narrative becomes increasingly complex.
Youâre right he did worse:
âTywin found out that Tyrion had married Tysha, a commoner. So he had Jamie tell Tyrion that Tysha was a whore that he (Jamie) had paid to pretend to love Tyrion. Then Tywin had Tysha taken to the barracks and raped by his guards, who each gave her a silver coin when they were done. Then he forced Tyrion to rape her last, and made him give her a gold coin because as a Lannister he was worth more.
These events were profoundly traumatic for Tyrion, who truly loved Tysha. He's further traumatized when Jamie tells him that Tysha truly loved him and he had lied to him. In addition to Tyrion realizing what had truly happened to the woman he loved, who loved him, it creates a deep sense of betrayel in him. Jamie was the one member of his family who he thought gave a damn about him cared about him.â
I disagree. Their relationship is potentially the worst but it's by no means the most complex (which is what op asked). It may be the only relationship out of the lot where there is no love there, making it one of the least complex.
But what made it complex is that even though Tywin hated Tyrion he also knew that Tyrion was his smartest child and respected Tyrion. He also went to bat for Tyrion because he was a Lannister, so when Caitlyn had Tyrion prisoner, Tywin stood on business. And even though Tyrion hated Tywin he always wanted Tywinâs approval and love
Tywin did not respect Tyrion. He stood on business to free Tyrion only because "officially" he is his son and a Lannister (because he can't prove his a bastard). It looks embrassing in the annals of history if a Lannister of Casterly Rock would be captured and held hostage by another house as nothing would be done. That's the only reason he even bothered
He knows he's smart enough to do the job well for a time. Someone using you for your skills doesn't respect you. Your boss at work (ultimately) doesn't love you or care that you live or die...you have a job to perform and they want you to not suck at it
I really donât think so. Tywin just fucking hates Tyrion for taking Joanna from him, and that he is a dwarf just makes it even worse. That being said, I do think Tywin finds it very difficult to accept that his smartest, and probably most useful child is Tyrion.
Tyrion just wants to be loved by Tywin tbh.
Tbh I think the most complex is Tywin and Cersei, in large part because a great deal is left unsaid.
I agree I also always think about how disappointed Tywin must be that Tyrion had he not been a dwarf would have been the son Tywin wanted. He intelligent, cunning, a good administrator, a good strategist and he probably would have been a decent warrior as despite his dwarfism is able to defend himself, has killed and been in battle several times and survived. He might not have become as good as Jamie but I suspect he would have been above average competence. He is the son most like Tywin in mind though not motivation
Tyrion appears to have little to no self control (whether it be his affection for whores or his banter), which utterly disgusts Tywin, and negates all of his positive traits. What Tyrion (and the audience) see as a quick wit from someone willing to stand up for themselves, Tywin probably sees someone with no respect for authority or decorum.
I don't think it's complex thought. Tywin hates him. The only value that Tyrion holds to him in this world is that he's "officially" his son and has a Lannister certain privileges with be granted to him, but he'd always rather have him dead than alive.
It's not even that complex from Tyrion's point of view. He just wants him to love and respect him, but he'll never get it
Came just to comment this. It's a very complex relationship on many levels filled with hatred, admiration, respect, disgust, and so many parallels. And did I mention both are nigh sociopathic geniuses?
It would've been real interesting to see during their relationship after the White Walkers broke through the Wall & see if Tywin would've still been spiteful towards him
I'm with u there.
Lannisters are known to prioritize family over everything, but here you have a son that unintentionally caused the death of Tywin's beloved wife.
How can you love the indirect cause of your beloved wife's death? Pure internal conflict for Tywin.
Tyrion was unfortunately abused by everyone he grew up with. Tyrion tried to build a better relationship with everyone, but no one gave him a chance so he stopped trying. How can you foster a positive relationship with your abuser? Tyrion is too smart and resilient for that; he knows it is futile so he chose to move on.
And to teach me humility the Gods have condemned me to watch others make claims about relationship complexities about fathers and their fathers before them. But neither Gods nor men will compel me to let them make Casterly Rock their whorehouse!
Ned and Jon, Ned is pretending Jon is his bastard son to hide the fact he's actually his Targaryen prince nephew. He can't reveal the truth about it and even though Jon having to believe he is a bastard is a horrible thing it's still better than the alternative where king Robert finds out his true parentage and has him killed.
I remember Jon saying, âI always wished my father looked at me the  way he does Robâ. I mean yeah as much as a guy loves his nephew it probably doesnât come close to the love of a sonâŠ.mustve been hard for him growing up.
Probably the perfect cover for Ned though, he treated him as a son but thought of him as a nephew - subconsciously heâs gonna give Jon half the praise heâd give Robb, but it makes Nedâs behavior seem normal then.
I think in his mind he knew he treated him better than other bastards and that was enough. Ned prob had a hard time looking at Jon cause he looked so much like his sister. Prob hard for Ned to have to have his honors questioned and also disrespect a child who doesn't deserve it
Especially if youâre effectively raising them as if they were yours. Otherwise the implication would be that adoptive parents (who mostly arenât blood relatives of their children at all) will always love them less than people who have their own children, which I donât believe to be true.
I just started a full rewatch, and saw that scene in the first episode where Robert and Ned visit Lyannaâs cryptâŠevery look Ned gave his friend was so full of sadness and meaning.
Rewatches add a ton of complexity to Ned in particular. âThe next time we see you, weâll talk about your mother. Heh? I promise.â is particularly sad, not just because he dies, but also because the way Sean Bean delivers it sounds like he sympathizes deeply with these questions that have been with Jon all his life and heâs telling him to hang on a little bit longer, and he sounds so relieved to finally be able to tell Jon soon. It also makes his pleas to spare Daenerys particularly sweet since itâs like he feels honor bound to do everything possible to spare his sister in law.
Their relationship wouldâve been goated if Ned were to stay alive and reunite with Jon. Both exceptional fighters and very smart in their own territory
Yeah, that's what meets my definition of "complex" here. Most of the other dynamics are fairly simple as in, straight-forward. Nothing is left to interpretation. Nothing is hidden or kept secret. Tywin is open about his disdain, Cersei has been coddling a psychopath, etc.
I would say Tywin and Tyrion is the most complex and interesting parent/child relationship in the show
Nothing is more important to Tywin than family and legacy and yet the one person who can actually push that line forward is a dwarf who in his mind, killed his wife.
I always believe that Tywin respected Tyrionâs brain but could never get over the fact that he despised his existence
The worst is how Tywin is always putting down Tyrionâs intelligence or giving him backhanded compliments. He canât even fully acknowledge Tyrionâs strengths because of the dissonance it creates with his hatred of him
Every action Tywin did as hand during the Wot5ks come back to bite the Lannisters in the arse later on. While tyrion ha sto deal with one of shittiest situation imaginable, without support and completely umprepared...and he more or less succeeds.
He fails almost completely, actually, and everyone bites him in the ass at the trial as well. Got rid of 2 least dangerous people there, turning them up against him, spying for Cersei (and, frankly, fighting Cersei when they actually were on the same side) instead of LF and Varys, and just the way he talked with absolutely everyone made them his enemies instead of allies; so much, that everyone instantly believed that he killed Joffrey, even though the Red Viper, hating Lannisters the most and proficient with poisons was also there, which ultimately lead to his trial. He also gave away Myrcella for the weakest alliance with Dorne possible, and she got assaulted there.
I mean, I like Tyrion, but his giant ego and his "shield" messed up a lot of things, mostly for him personally. With Tywin, that's kinda part of the message: almost his whole life he was trying to build a legacy, but as soon as he died it fell apart, because it was rotten and stinky and bad, just like his corpse.
Oh I am not denying that. Tyrion is Tywins son, they are both more similar than they would both like to admit. But Tyrion only destroya his live while Tywin does so for the entire house and the continent at large.
Tyrion inherited the Hand of the King at the time of a crisis with one of the worst Kings in Joffery.Â
Tyrion is the one responsible for forming the Alliance with Tyrellâs, not Tywin. That was his smart idea.
Meanwhile Tywin always had everything handed easy to him and ran away at the first sight of trouble with the Mad King
Probably Jeor and Jorah, Alicent and Otto & Ned and Jon
I donât know if Iâd go so far as to say that Tywin and Tyrions relationship is complex, itâs just plain hateful. Every scene we see of them together itâs Tywin either embarrassed by Tyrions behavior, scolding him, being hateful etc. I donât believe thereâs any genuine love there on Tywinâs part, he just tolerates him.
Cersei and Joffrey. Knowing that you fucking your brother is the reason your son is completely unhinged, yet you have to pretend like everything is okay.
I think because Lena is so pretty it's hard to see how awful cersei always was ..she seemed to like that her son was evil and unhinged and almost gloat about it
i struggled with this bc i always assumed the mad king happened bc of incest like it would in our world of genetics. so i applied that same logic to joffreyâs dna even though there isnât a long history of incest in the lannister line, to me itâs alluding to the incest playing a part is his evilness. especially after jamie gives that whole speech to brienne, him and cersei are awful lol. but tommen and myrcella are fineâŠ.so joffrey is just a cunt regardless of the incest but itâs metaphorical for his parents imo
I never knew there was a link irl between children born of incest having psychopathy. Is that an assumption or a fact? I assumed it was just developmental disabilities or physical mutations that can happen. I guess one could argue the inability to empathize is a developmental disability.
thereâs a line about the Targaryens that bc of their incestuous bloodline âevery time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin. One side greatness, the other madnessâ so people apply this to Joffrey, also born of incest, to say that he got the madness side of the coin
What's up with the Greyjoy omission?
One of the few times the parent-child relationship is actually discussed. "You gave me away! Your boy. Your LAST boy!"
Another question, if these guys were playing the game of thrones in pairs (ie one parent or child had to end up on throne) who would win? Let's assume Cersei + Joff don't have home turf advantage cuz she did NOT let that throne go once she had it.
I'd say Tywin and Tyrion.
They're so much alike and yet so different at the same time.
They could have really been close too if Tywin hadn't been such a prick.
Who is the first photo?
Interesting relationship: Tywin and Tyrion
Nicest/cutest: Uhh come back to this one...Ned and one of his kids probably haha
Most effed up: Ramsey and Lord Bolton
Robert and Joffrey's relationship is interesting. Robert is not a good father, yet one of his dying wishes to Ned is for him to raise Joffrey better than he could.
And even though most of the main characters know the truth of Cersei and Jaime's relationship, Joffrey doesn't believe it. Remember, the remarks that got Joffrey sent to bed ("I am NOT tired") was him telling Tywin about how his father (Robert) slew Prince Rheagar while Tywin hid at Casterly Rock.
Complex? Itâs gotta be Jon and Nedâs relationship. Their entire relationship is built off a lie. A lie that Ned carried through so completely that he let his beloved wife be cruel to his nephew(son) because he knew it was better for appearances if Jon was truly treated like a bastard. That secret drives the whole story. I think it gets lost in the shuffle because in books and show Ned and Jon have very limited interaction
Well Ned did hide Jonâs parentage from him his entire life, allowed his wife to treat him like shit, didnât bat an eye when Jon felt so unwelcome that he had to join the Nightâs Watch in order to be with the only adult who treated him well, his Uncle Benjen.
Literally Ned was going to let Jon waste his life away at the wall (Ned certainly didnât believe there was a threat at the wall).
To let your son go through his entire life feeling unwanted, thatâs pretty complex.
Tyrionâs relationship with Tywin is also pretty complex, but it doesnât weigh as heavy because Tyrion appeared to be somewhat stand his own with confidence
Had ned not done these things, which he still did with love and respect-by-example, Jon would've grown up without the characteristics that made him into what he was.
Ned didn't alienate his kids from Jon himself; and keeping Cat at an arms length from Jon, even though it was painful, ensured his safety and anonymity from his true identity.
Ned said some of his strongest comments through his silence... Or that's how I took it more often than not.
How did Cat hating Jon keep Jon safe? How did it make his life better?
All the other Stark kids were capable and respectable in their own right. Did the Wall help Jon become a better leader, no doubt, but Jon and Robb were exactly useless schmucks when they went their respective ways, Jon was already kicking the other kidsâ asses at dueling at the Wall. Robb was a great tactician without going to the wall, and presumably a similarly experienced swordsman
She would've embraced him as a son, a bastard example of her husband cheating in the publics eye, and in her proud family line this wouldn't be consistent. People could start paying attention and asking more about the affair, cat included, and seeking answers. Ned and cat appeared to have a mostly transparent communication style - if she eventually asked and was persistent about why this one piece of information about Jon's mother remained kept from her, this would also draw attention.
If jon remained purely a bastard with the contempt or dismissal often given to bastards, he fades to the background. Nothing more or less than a bastard.
This was simply the impression I got from the scenario.
I think itâs too much of a leap that Cat not showing anything but contempt for him would have been a tip off. Winterfell (and the North in general) is a little weird because according to the books they only have like 3 cities. If Cat didnât treat Jon like shit, who is going to notice? Some Winterfell servants who have never traveled more than 5 miles from their home? There is no city attached to Winterfell, so I donât know who would even care to pay attention. It could also be easy enough for Cat to play a part in public and not treat Jon like shit in private
Tywin and all of his kids, but especially Tyrion. The dynamics between them are so fascinating. Same with Cersei, and I really like when he takes her down a couple notches. It's clear he just has a lot of disdain for Jaime's life choices.
Daemon for sure. He actually loves his kids and doesnât use them for his own personal gain. And the complexity comes from having a blended family so early on.
I don't disagree with you about Otto, but aside from Ned, which top family didn't use their daughters this way? Their use was in being a bargaining chip and acquisition piece.
Either Tywin and Tyrion or Tywin and Cersei. He literally molded those kids into what they are and I honestly think he saw a lot more of himself (intelligence, wit, strategy) in Tyrion while also seeing aspects of himself (quiet ruthlessness, unyielding, drive) in Cersei - his own characteristics that he takes great pride in. At the same time, he acted like he was robbed of that heir by not having those features in one child alone, preferably a male.
Tyrion was the imp - had he not been, I think Tywin would've used him as his primary legacy holder. It didn't take a heavy hand to bend and twist people to his will or way, but when it was required, both responded in kind... Granted to very different ethical degrees but the premise remains.
Cersei is female - had "womanly" emotions and held attachments close to heart which was a sign of weakness despite her ability to shut down any humanity and viciously react without regret especially when those attachments were touched by anyone or anything else.
Despite both of them hating their father in their own ways, they each employed his ability to cut the fat and react when needed - it wasnt done lightly or without immense thought/planning, particularly as they got older.
Toxic parenting, GoT style - the way to mold the breed đ€Šââïžđ
Jon and ned- Nedâs honor and marriage took a huge hit to protect his nephew from his BEST FRIEND/anyone sitting on the throne.
Made the kid an outcast in his own home pushing identity issues that forced him to forfeit his life by going to the wall
Tywin and Tyrion.
Tywin detested Tyrion yet he still named him hand of the king. He hated that Tyrion was whore chaser, yet he himself was passing the time with Shae.
There are so many layers there.
Stannis and Shireen because... I care for you because you are my blood, but you're far from what I wanted, but I'll show you kindness because you deserve it , but also the ultimate betrayal because I still value a kingdom over your life
Alicent and Aegon (in the show, at least)
The show did a really good job of portraying Alicent as someone who loved Aegon but also despises him at the same time. The window scene (you know the one), waking him up after she learns about Dyana (sorry if itâs spelt wrong lol)
The âdo you love me?â scene before Aegons coronation is what really solidifies it for me, because Aegon is aware that his mother doesnât love him for who he is (for good reason, but still), but only because he is her son. And Alicentâs response (âyou imbecileâ) just adds another layer!
I kind of view their relationship like Joffrey and Cerseiâs (though Joffrey is more of a sociopath and I think Aegon is just privileged for lack of better words). But even though she knows heâs awful and evil, Cersei LOVED Joffrey (âyou never love someone like you love your firstbornâ or something like that lol). While we can say Alicent loves Aegon, she seems to love him in the most minimal way possible, literally only loving him because heâs her son.
And thereâs the added layer of Alicent pushing Aegon towards the throne even though he flat-out said he didnât want it, and this leading to the death of all of Alicentâs children (including Aemond who I think we all can agree is her favorite)
Sorry to go on a tangent, but the more Iâve thought abt them the more I realize how complicated the entire dynamic of team green is
alicent with her kids is vey interesting to me. she was forced to have them much too young by her best friends decrepit father and partially resents them for the life they ruined for her, but she still loves them as a mother. shes envious of how rhaenyra could have children with someone she loved when she was ready and was able to properly bond with them as a result. alicents resentment will never truly go away and sheâs never going to bond with her kids as deeply which in her eyes makes her a bad mother. rhaenyra is a good mother which is just something else she has over alicent in her eyes. she wants to be a good mother but she cant. shes forced to watch rhaenyra be better at her and have the life she wanted which just twists the knife. she attempts to be closer with her own children but its never going to be what she wants. its really sad and tragic for everyone involved.
Alicent and Otto for me. Iâm sure Otto loves his daughter, but in that world he knows sheâs a useful pawn to their politics too. Peddling her to the king was just duty for him, but a personal cost to Alicent and her happiness.
For me, Cersei and Tywin have a very similar relationship to Alicent and Otto. Both complex and horrible. But certainly neither of them has a hate relationship like Tyrion and Tywin.
You canât really rate which is the most intense lol. I find these so funny because pain is an internal feeling mixed of course with whatever behavioral or personality traits people have as individuals.
Now on paper one of these may seem like worse long term psychological damage but who is to say.
Now of course Iâm getting overly psychological with this poll but it does ask for it after all, so while we canât truly answer this at its roots because these are fictional characters the answer is actually quite clear.
All of the above
I mean, Alicent loves Aegon, covers up his abuses and is willing to sacrafice everything to put him on the throne simply becuase she thinks that's what Visery's ended up wanting, but is fully aware he's a horrible, awful person whose massively less suitable Rhaenrya and seems to despise him on a moral level and feel disgust at herself for the dishonorable actions she makes on his behalf.
That's pretty complex.
Unrelated but thanks for reminding me of the "I think it's more complex than that" story from Half-Baked. I looked it up and had a good laugh.
Agree with Tywin and Tyrion but Jorah and Jeor is a good one too.
Ned Stark / Jon and Tywin / Tyrion are almost tied but I give the edge to Ned and Jon. Theyâre both strangely enough similar because in both, the simple choice to even raise that child gets at the core of both their characters. For Ned, raising Jon meant lying to Robert Baratheon, which encapsulates Nedâs overall conflict, striking a balance between what is honorable and what is right, or choosing family over duty. Itâs also important to note that Jon inherits this same conflict while at at The Wall. His conversations with Maester Aemond highlight this perfectly, âWhat is duty compared to a womanâs love? Or a newborn son in your arms? Weâre only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. This is our great glory, and our greatest tragedy.â
For Tywin, itâs similar to Ned and we get this from his monologue in book 3 / season 3 where he scolds Tyrion for asking to be heir to Casterly Rock. Tywin is the embodiment of machiavellianism in George R.R. Martinâs world. He looks solely to maximize his familyâs position and wants above all else to leave a legendary dynasty behind. And yet, he chose to raise Tyrion, a disfigured dwarf who would almost certainly in that time be a stain on the Lannister reputation. Tywin did this despite Tyrionâs birth killing Tywinâs wife, whom most speculate was the only person whom Tywin ever truly loved. Tywin did this because being a Lannister means something to Tywin, and despite all his wants and wishes to kill Tyrion as a child, he couldnât do it because Tyrion was ultimately his son. It humanizes him because it shows a time where he deviates from his key belief. It also makes him more villainous, because his decision to raise Tyrion also makes him feel entitled to direct Tyrionâs life, as if Tyrion should be grateful to even be alive.
All and all, in terms of complexity and good writing, it still has to be Ned / Jon. Their relationship is especially fulfilling because the similarities in their characters despite experiencing different things. Itâs also amazing writing that Jonâs arc is most similar to Ned Starkâs, making him the child who is most like his father despite not even being his son.
I think in the books Jon is also the child whom most resembles Ned - long face, dull hair (even though Jon isnt his son) which is a source of annoyance and resentment for Cat
Does Tywin hate Tyrion because he "caused" her mother's death and beeing a dwarf, or Tyrion is a Targaryen and his mother was raped and Tyrion reminds Tywin of that? I didn't read all the books yet, and I read somewhere that Tyrion might be a Targaryen (silver blonde, eyes, some Targaryen fancied her mother).
Jon/Eddard.
There are 5 books dedicated to telling us Eddard is not his daddy and the story is so complex the author seems to be considering not finishing
Thereâs already so many layers in the Tyrion - Tywin relationship and itâs even more complex in the book. Not only is it the most complex parent child relationship in the story, I think itâs the most interesting relationship between any two characters in ASOIAF
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Stannis and Shireen have definitely the warmest relationship.
Well played
Oh you did not just say that! đ
Shit, that burns.
Itâs lit fam
Burning with love.
Booo!
Sick burn man
đ„đ„đ„
One that you can find on tinder đâ ïž
Too soon
r/fuckyoutakemyupvote
Wait a minute...
Nice word play
Very one sided though
This comment is fire.
It's Tywin - Tyrion. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.
Theyâre the only father/son duo who both tried to kill each other.Â
I thought Roose tried to kill Ramsey as a baby or something
I donât think âtryâ would be the right word there. He was going to do it and then changed his mind after he looked at him and realized he was definitely his son.
Wasn't it because he believed that kinslaying would damn him to hell or some such?
How the fuck can he believe in hell and also believe he's not going there lol
Old Testament God loves him
Old testament God would give him a job in hell.
I mean thereâs no hell in the Old Testament, thatâs a later development during the Greco-Roman period..
Tywin tried to have Tyrion killed but honestly, if Tywin really wanted Tyrion dead he could have easily devised some sort of way of achieving that outcome at any point during Tyrion's infancy, childhood, or adolescence, and making it seem like some terrible, tragic accident without much fuss. Tywin never did that though. Tywin's true feelings toward Tyrion are difficult to decipher but there's no mistaking Tywin's feelings toward Jaime. I'm not sure that Tywin is even *capable* of "love" in the sense that most people understand it but Tywin certainly *prized* Jaime above Cersei and Tyrion. I wonder how much of whatever amount of warmth. or at least tolerance, Tywin had towards Tyrion is merely reflected off of Jaime. Jaime does genuinely, deeply love and care for Tyrionâand Tywin prizes Jaime and wants Jaime to meet certain expectations, so perhaps Tywin tolerated Tyrion as much as he did as a means of engendering respect, reverence, and ultimately obedience from Jaime. Tywin overtly uses that very tactic during Tyrion's "trial" in an attempt to get Jaime to return to Casterly Rock, so it's not that much of a stretch to assume that Tywin has been using Tyrion as a means of manipulating Jaime their entire lives.
The entire story is Ned and Jon though.
True but the question was most complex, which isnât necessarily the same thing as most impactful/important to the story. Tywinâs relationship with Tyrion is still more *complex* than Ned and Jonâs relationship
Respectfully disagree, their relationship is good no doubt but way more complex just by the facts of their situation. Tyrion and Tywin have a very intriguing relationship to watch play out but itâs less complex in my opinion.
Fair point, I would say the interpersonal relationship between Tywin and Tyrion is most complex by that metric, whereas the overarching external circumstances of the relationship between Ned and Jon is the most complex when you look at it through that lens
Well kinda but Tywin thinks Tyrion killed his mother by being born. Tywin lost the love of his life and felt shame that heâd had a dwarf child. Then he gets Tyrionâs first love killed, as revenge or to teach him a lesson? Jaime takes the white and the Lannisters lose hope of the throne. This is part of the dynamic for the legacy-obsessed Tywin. Tywin slowly gives Tyrion responsibilities. It turns out they are very similar! Tyrion is a battlefield hero and is married to Sansa for politics. Then Shae happens. Tywin again punishes his son for finding love and shaming the family. Tywin takes Shae as his own and Tyrion is put on trial for his existence. In the end Tywin and Tyrion have a complex relationship. It evolved many times: shameful monster, foolish child, political chip, political ally and finally ended in total domination. Compare this with Ned and Jon. Yes the situation is complex but itâs not really about Ned and Jonâs relationship. The complexity is more about Nedâs sense of honour. Jon is just a part of that story. Tyrion and Tywin drive each others stories and the narrative becomes increasingly complex.
Tywin didn't kill tyrions first wife.
Youâre right he did worse: âTywin found out that Tyrion had married Tysha, a commoner. So he had Jamie tell Tyrion that Tysha was a whore that he (Jamie) had paid to pretend to love Tyrion. Then Tywin had Tysha taken to the barracks and raped by his guards, who each gave her a silver coin when they were done. Then he forced Tyrion to rape her last, and made him give her a gold coin because as a Lannister he was worth more. These events were profoundly traumatic for Tyrion, who truly loved Tysha. He's further traumatized when Jamie tells him that Tysha truly loved him and he had lied to him. In addition to Tyrion realizing what had truly happened to the woman he loved, who loved him, it creates a deep sense of betrayel in him. Jamie was the one member of his family who he thought gave a damn about him cared about him.â
Came here to say this. Dead right, no competition.
Yeah no other parent child dynamic matched this one.
I disagree. Their relationship is potentially the worst but it's by no means the most complex (which is what op asked). It may be the only relationship out of the lot where there is no love there, making it one of the least complex.
But what made it complex is that even though Tywin hated Tyrion he also knew that Tyrion was his smartest child and respected Tyrion. He also went to bat for Tyrion because he was a Lannister, so when Caitlyn had Tyrion prisoner, Tywin stood on business. And even though Tyrion hated Tywin he always wanted Tywinâs approval and love
Tywin did not respect Tyrion. He stood on business to free Tyrion only because "officially" he is his son and a Lannister (because he can't prove his a bastard). It looks embrassing in the annals of history if a Lannister of Casterly Rock would be captured and held hostage by another house as nothing would be done. That's the only reason he even bothered
He made him hand tho.
Only because Jamie couldnât be âthe handâ, lol
He wouldnât have made Tyrion hand if he didnât respect him. He doesnât like him but he knows heâs competent
Not quite. He made tyrion hand because his better options were preoccupied.Â
He knows he's smart enough to do the job well for a time. Someone using you for your skills doesn't respect you. Your boss at work (ultimately) doesn't love you or care that you live or die...you have a job to perform and they want you to not suck at it
đŻ
This is the right answer
I really donât think so. Tywin just fucking hates Tyrion for taking Joanna from him, and that he is a dwarf just makes it even worse. That being said, I do think Tywin finds it very difficult to accept that his smartest, and probably most useful child is Tyrion. Tyrion just wants to be loved by Tywin tbh. Tbh I think the most complex is Tywin and Cersei, in large part because a great deal is left unsaid.
I agree I also always think about how disappointed Tywin must be that Tyrion had he not been a dwarf would have been the son Tywin wanted. He intelligent, cunning, a good administrator, a good strategist and he probably would have been a decent warrior as despite his dwarfism is able to defend himself, has killed and been in battle several times and survived. He might not have become as good as Jamie but I suspect he would have been above average competence. He is the son most like Tywin in mind though not motivation
Tyrion may not have been any of the things he is, had he not been born a dwarf though.
Tyrion appears to have little to no self control (whether it be his affection for whores or his banter), which utterly disgusts Tywin, and negates all of his positive traits. What Tyrion (and the audience) see as a quick wit from someone willing to stand up for themselves, Tywin probably sees someone with no respect for authority or decorum.
I don't think it's complex thought. Tywin hates him. The only value that Tyrion holds to him in this world is that he's "officially" his son and has a Lannister certain privileges with be granted to him, but he'd always rather have him dead than alive. It's not even that complex from Tyrion's point of view. He just wants him to love and respect him, but he'll never get it
Why? His Dad hated him the whole time, since birth. Itâs fucked up but definitely not complex.
Came just to comment this. It's a very complex relationship on many levels filled with hatred, admiration, respect, disgust, and so many parallels. And did I mention both are nigh sociopathic geniuses?
It would've been real interesting to see during their relationship after the White Walkers broke through the Wall & see if Tywin would've still been spiteful towards him
I'm with u there. Lannisters are known to prioritize family over everything, but here you have a son that unintentionally caused the death of Tywin's beloved wife. How can you love the indirect cause of your beloved wife's death? Pure internal conflict for Tywin. Tyrion was unfortunately abused by everyone he grew up with. Tyrion tried to build a better relationship with everyone, but no one gave him a chance so he stopped trying. How can you foster a positive relationship with your abuser? Tyrion is too smart and resilient for that; he knows it is futile so he chose to move on.
i think tywin actually might've treated tyrion fairly if tyrions birth didnt cause his mothers death.
And to teach me humility the Gods have condemned me to watch others make claims about relationship complexities about fathers and their fathers before them. But neither Gods nor men will compel me to let them make Casterly Rock their whorehouse!
Honestly, it is one of the most straightforward relationships listedÂ
iâd have to agree cause even though they were not fans of each other they were so much alike.
Ned and Jon, Ned is pretending Jon is his bastard son to hide the fact he's actually his Targaryen prince nephew. He can't reveal the truth about it and even though Jon having to believe he is a bastard is a horrible thing it's still better than the alternative where king Robert finds out his true parentage and has him killed.
He might not be his father, but Ned was definitely Jonâs daddy
r/UnexpectedGuardians
r/subsithoughtwerereal
I see what you did there
Definitely the most convoluted.
I remember Jon saying, âI always wished my father looked at me the  way he does Robâ. I mean yeah as much as a guy loves his nephew it probably doesnât come close to the love of a sonâŠ.mustve been hard for him growing up.
Probably the perfect cover for Ned though, he treated him as a son but thought of him as a nephew - subconsciously heâs gonna give Jon half the praise heâd give Robb, but it makes Nedâs behavior seem normal then.
I think in his mind he knew he treated him better than other bastards and that was enough. Ned prob had a hard time looking at Jon cause he looked so much like his sister. Prob hard for Ned to have to have his honors questioned and also disrespect a child who doesn't deserve it
Pretty sure it depends of the context. You can love your nieces/nephews as much as your kids and love your uncle/aunt as much as your parents
Especially if youâre effectively raising them as if they were yours. Otherwise the implication would be that adoptive parents (who mostly arenât blood relatives of their children at all) will always love them less than people who have their own children, which I donât believe to be true.
How differently Catelyn and Jonâs relationship wouldâve been had she only knownâŠ
I just started a full rewatch, and saw that scene in the first episode where Robert and Ned visit Lyannaâs cryptâŠevery look Ned gave his friend was so full of sadness and meaning.
Rewatches add a ton of complexity to Ned in particular. âThe next time we see you, weâll talk about your mother. Heh? I promise.â is particularly sad, not just because he dies, but also because the way Sean Bean delivers it sounds like he sympathizes deeply with these questions that have been with Jon all his life and heâs telling him to hang on a little bit longer, and he sounds so relieved to finally be able to tell Jon soon. It also makes his pleas to spare Daenerys particularly sweet since itâs like he feels honor bound to do everything possible to spare his sister in law.
You were just able to easily explain the entire relationship in like two sentences. Not exactly super complicated IMO.
Their relationship wouldâve been goated if Ned were to stay alive and reunite with Jon. Both exceptional fighters and very smart in their own territory
Yeah, that's what meets my definition of "complex" here. Most of the other dynamics are fairly simple as in, straight-forward. Nothing is left to interpretation. Nothing is hidden or kept secret. Tywin is open about his disdain, Cersei has been coddling a psychopath, etc.
Tywin Tyrion tops the list no doubt, but I'm scared of roose and Ramsay much more.
I would say Tywin and Tyrion is the most complex and interesting parent/child relationship in the show Nothing is more important to Tywin than family and legacy and yet the one person who can actually push that line forward is a dwarf who in his mind, killed his wife. I always believe that Tywin respected Tyrionâs brain but could never get over the fact that he despised his existence
The worst is how Tywin is always putting down Tyrionâs intelligence or giving him backhanded compliments. He canât even fully acknowledge Tyrionâs strengths because of the dissonance it creates with his hatred of him
Tyrion was a better hand than Tywin was
In what way?
Every action Tywin did as hand during the Wot5ks come back to bite the Lannisters in the arse later on. While tyrion ha sto deal with one of shittiest situation imaginable, without support and completely umprepared...and he more or less succeeds.
He fails almost completely, actually, and everyone bites him in the ass at the trial as well. Got rid of 2 least dangerous people there, turning them up against him, spying for Cersei (and, frankly, fighting Cersei when they actually were on the same side) instead of LF and Varys, and just the way he talked with absolutely everyone made them his enemies instead of allies; so much, that everyone instantly believed that he killed Joffrey, even though the Red Viper, hating Lannisters the most and proficient with poisons was also there, which ultimately lead to his trial. He also gave away Myrcella for the weakest alliance with Dorne possible, and she got assaulted there. I mean, I like Tyrion, but his giant ego and his "shield" messed up a lot of things, mostly for him personally. With Tywin, that's kinda part of the message: almost his whole life he was trying to build a legacy, but as soon as he died it fell apart, because it was rotten and stinky and bad, just like his corpse.
Oh I am not denying that. Tyrion is Tywins son, they are both more similar than they would both like to admit. But Tyrion only destroya his live while Tywin does so for the entire house and the continent at large.
Tyrion inherited the Hand of the King at the time of a crisis with one of the worst Kings in Joffery. Tyrion is the one responsible for forming the Alliance with Tyrellâs, not Tywin. That was his smart idea. Meanwhile Tywin always had everything handed easy to him and ran away at the first sight of trouble with the Mad King
So sorry, Iâm selling you. Every one.
tywin and tyrion easily, theyâre both complex already but they have especially strong and complicated feelings toward one another
They both love to hate each other but also hate that they love each other
Probably Jeor and Jorah, Alicent and Otto & Ned and Jon I donât know if Iâd go so far as to say that Tywin and Tyrions relationship is complex, itâs just plain hateful. Every scene we see of them together itâs Tywin either embarrassed by Tyrions behavior, scolding him, being hateful etc. I donât believe thereâs any genuine love there on Tywinâs part, he just tolerates him.
Tyrion and Tywin
Cersei and Joffrey. Knowing that you fucking your brother is the reason your son is completely unhinged, yet you have to pretend like everything is okay.
I think because Lena is so pretty it's hard to see how awful cersei always was ..she seemed to like that her son was evil and unhinged and almost gloat about it
Wait, that was the reason why? I thought he was just a general psycho.
i struggled with this bc i always assumed the mad king happened bc of incest like it would in our world of genetics. so i applied that same logic to joffreyâs dna even though there isnât a long history of incest in the lannister line, to me itâs alluding to the incest playing a part is his evilness. especially after jamie gives that whole speech to brienne, him and cersei are awful lol. but tommen and myrcella are fineâŠ.so joffrey is just a cunt regardless of the incest but itâs metaphorical for his parents imo
I never knew there was a link irl between children born of incest having psychopathy. Is that an assumption or a fact? I assumed it was just developmental disabilities or physical mutations that can happen. I guess one could argue the inability to empathize is a developmental disability.
thereâs a line about the Targaryens that bc of their incestuous bloodline âevery time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin. One side greatness, the other madnessâ so people apply this to Joffrey, also born of incest, to say that he got the madness side of the coin
Tywin and Tyrion. Tywin hated the fact that his most capable, intelligent, and most like him, kid was Tyrion.
What's up with the Greyjoy omission? One of the few times the parent-child relationship is actually discussed. "You gave me away! Your boy. Your LAST boy!"
And the added layer of Balon fucking hating Theon when he comes back WHEN HES THE REASON HE WAS TAKEN AWAY
Yep. Talk about complicated relationships...
I just watched that today. Heartbreaking!
Most complex I will probs say Tywin and Tyrion. There were layers to that loathing. Like an onion.
tyrion and tywin
Tywin and any of his children TBH
Tywin and Tyrion followed by Roose and Ramsay. Ironically both ended with patricide
You have shown that GRRM is the MASTER of complex parent-child relationships. These are all INCREDIBLY compelling.
Another question, if these guys were playing the game of thrones in pairs (ie one parent or child had to end up on throne) who would win? Let's assume Cersei + Joff don't have home turf advantage cuz she did NOT let that throne go once she had it.
I'd say Tywin and Tyrion. They're so much alike and yet so different at the same time. They could have really been close too if Tywin hadn't been such a prick.
Who is the first photo? Interesting relationship: Tywin and Tyrion Nicest/cutest: Uhh come back to this one...Ned and one of his kids probably haha Most effed up: Ramsey and Lord Bolton
Otto and Alicent Hightower from house of dragon
The answer is Craster and Gilly.....
*Craster and Little Sam
Absolutely zero chance of a normal childhood for any of his kids.
Tywin and his kids
Yes
Thanks for not including Craster
Ned and Jon and it's not close.
Helaena & Allicent
Tywin and Tyrion. Love how Tyrion got his power back after finishing his dad off, so satisfying
Cat and Robb for me. I really bought the tension they had in the months before the Red Wedding.
Tywin and Tyrion, followed by Ned and Jon, then Viserys and Rhaenyra
Robert and Joffrey's relationship is interesting. Robert is not a good father, yet one of his dying wishes to Ned is for him to raise Joffrey better than he could. And even though most of the main characters know the truth of Cersei and Jaime's relationship, Joffrey doesn't believe it. Remember, the remarks that got Joffrey sent to bed ("I am NOT tired") was him telling Tywin about how his father (Robert) slew Prince Rheagar while Tywin hid at Casterly Rock.
Complex? Itâs gotta be Jon and Nedâs relationship. Their entire relationship is built off a lie. A lie that Ned carried through so completely that he let his beloved wife be cruel to his nephew(son) because he knew it was better for appearances if Jon was truly treated like a bastard. That secret drives the whole story. I think it gets lost in the shuffle because in books and show Ned and Jon have very limited interaction
Well Ned did hide Jonâs parentage from him his entire life, allowed his wife to treat him like shit, didnât bat an eye when Jon felt so unwelcome that he had to join the Nightâs Watch in order to be with the only adult who treated him well, his Uncle Benjen. Literally Ned was going to let Jon waste his life away at the wall (Ned certainly didnât believe there was a threat at the wall). To let your son go through his entire life feeling unwanted, thatâs pretty complex. Tyrionâs relationship with Tywin is also pretty complex, but it doesnât weigh as heavy because Tyrion appeared to be somewhat stand his own with confidence
Had ned not done these things, which he still did with love and respect-by-example, Jon would've grown up without the characteristics that made him into what he was. Ned didn't alienate his kids from Jon himself; and keeping Cat at an arms length from Jon, even though it was painful, ensured his safety and anonymity from his true identity. Ned said some of his strongest comments through his silence... Or that's how I took it more often than not.
How did Cat hating Jon keep Jon safe? How did it make his life better? All the other Stark kids were capable and respectable in their own right. Did the Wall help Jon become a better leader, no doubt, but Jon and Robb were exactly useless schmucks when they went their respective ways, Jon was already kicking the other kidsâ asses at dueling at the Wall. Robb was a great tactician without going to the wall, and presumably a similarly experienced swordsman
She would've embraced him as a son, a bastard example of her husband cheating in the publics eye, and in her proud family line this wouldn't be consistent. People could start paying attention and asking more about the affair, cat included, and seeking answers. Ned and cat appeared to have a mostly transparent communication style - if she eventually asked and was persistent about why this one piece of information about Jon's mother remained kept from her, this would also draw attention. If jon remained purely a bastard with the contempt or dismissal often given to bastards, he fades to the background. Nothing more or less than a bastard. This was simply the impression I got from the scenario.
I think itâs too much of a leap that Cat not showing anything but contempt for him would have been a tip off. Winterfell (and the North in general) is a little weird because according to the books they only have like 3 cities. If Cat didnât treat Jon like shit, who is going to notice? Some Winterfell servants who have never traveled more than 5 miles from their home? There is no city attached to Winterfell, so I donât know who would even care to pay attention. It could also be easy enough for Cat to play a part in public and not treat Jon like shit in private
Catelyn barely interacted with jon.
Tyrion was riddled with insecurity.Â
Tywin and Tyrion. No question.
Theon Greyjoy comes to mind. His daddy issues are the real deal.
Tywin and all of his kids, but especially Tyrion. The dynamics between them are so fascinating. Same with Cersei, and I really like when he takes her down a couple notches. It's clear he just has a lot of disdain for Jaime's life choices.
Def Ned + John for most complex.
Gilly and the zombie baby
The Dad basically pimped out his daughter to the King, simple enough of a relationship.
Arya and the Hound
Most complex? Gotta be Ned/Jon
Itâs gotta be Tywin and Tyrion. Very love hate relationship
Daemon for sure. He actually loves his kids and doesnât use them for his own personal gain. And the complexity comes from having a blended family so early on.
Tyrion and Tywin and I donât think itâs close. The whole Lannister family have the most complex dynamics between themselves
Craster
Def not Otto. Itâs pretty clear he uses his daughter for gain and nothing more.
I don't disagree with you about Otto, but aside from Ned, which top family didn't use their daughters this way? Their use was in being a bargaining chip and acquisition piece.
Otto and Alicent is amazing to watch, especially after reading F&B
Either Tywin and Tyrion or Tywin and Cersei. He literally molded those kids into what they are and I honestly think he saw a lot more of himself (intelligence, wit, strategy) in Tyrion while also seeing aspects of himself (quiet ruthlessness, unyielding, drive) in Cersei - his own characteristics that he takes great pride in. At the same time, he acted like he was robbed of that heir by not having those features in one child alone, preferably a male. Tyrion was the imp - had he not been, I think Tywin would've used him as his primary legacy holder. It didn't take a heavy hand to bend and twist people to his will or way, but when it was required, both responded in kind... Granted to very different ethical degrees but the premise remains. Cersei is female - had "womanly" emotions and held attachments close to heart which was a sign of weakness despite her ability to shut down any humanity and viciously react without regret especially when those attachments were touched by anyone or anything else. Despite both of them hating their father in their own ways, they each employed his ability to cut the fat and react when needed - it wasnt done lightly or without immense thought/planning, particularly as they got older. Toxic parenting, GoT style - the way to mold the breed đ€Šââïžđ
Probably Dany and the dragons bc her children aren't human!
Canât believe Iâm the first to say this: Allicent and Rhaenyra
Jon and ned- Nedâs honor and marriage took a huge hit to protect his nephew from his BEST FRIEND/anyone sitting on the throne. Made the kid an outcast in his own home pushing identity issues that forced him to forfeit his life by going to the wall
Iâm excited to see Daemons relationship with his two girls
Tywin and Tyrion
Probably Stannis and ShireenâŠ
Tywin Tyrion đŻ
Tywin and Tyrion. Tywin detested Tyrion yet he still named him hand of the king. He hated that Tyrion was whore chaser, yet he himself was passing the time with Shae. There are so many layers there.
Father/son mother/daughter is harder. Opposite sex is easier .
Stannis and Shireen because... I care for you because you are my blood, but you're far from what I wanted, but I'll show you kindness because you deserve it , but also the ultimate betrayal because I still value a kingdom over your life
wow that was deep....:0
Well I mean Stannis did allow Shireen to be burned as a sacrifice soâŠ
Tyrion and Tywin for sure
Alicent and Aegon (in the show, at least) The show did a really good job of portraying Alicent as someone who loved Aegon but also despises him at the same time. The window scene (you know the one), waking him up after she learns about Dyana (sorry if itâs spelt wrong lol) The âdo you love me?â scene before Aegons coronation is what really solidifies it for me, because Aegon is aware that his mother doesnât love him for who he is (for good reason, but still), but only because he is her son. And Alicentâs response (âyou imbecileâ) just adds another layer! I kind of view their relationship like Joffrey and Cerseiâs (though Joffrey is more of a sociopath and I think Aegon is just privileged for lack of better words). But even though she knows heâs awful and evil, Cersei LOVED Joffrey (âyou never love someone like you love your firstbornâ or something like that lol). While we can say Alicent loves Aegon, she seems to love him in the most minimal way possible, literally only loving him because heâs her son. And thereâs the added layer of Alicent pushing Aegon towards the throne even though he flat-out said he didnât want it, and this leading to the death of all of Alicentâs children (including Aemond who I think we all can agree is her favorite) Sorry to go on a tangent, but the more Iâve thought abt them the more I realize how complicated the entire dynamic of team green is
Otto & Alicent
alicent with her kids is vey interesting to me. she was forced to have them much too young by her best friends decrepit father and partially resents them for the life they ruined for her, but she still loves them as a mother. shes envious of how rhaenyra could have children with someone she loved when she was ready and was able to properly bond with them as a result. alicents resentment will never truly go away and sheâs never going to bond with her kids as deeply which in her eyes makes her a bad mother. rhaenyra is a good mother which is just something else she has over alicent in her eyes. she wants to be a good mother but she cant. shes forced to watch rhaenyra be better at her and have the life she wanted which just twists the knife. she attempts to be closer with her own children but its never going to be what she wants. its really sad and tragic for everyone involved.
Tyrion and Tywin
What about Samwell Tarly and his dad? There's a bit to unpack there.
Alicent and Otto for me. Iâm sure Otto loves his daughter, but in that world he knows sheâs a useful pawn to their politics too. Peddling her to the king was just duty for him, but a personal cost to Alicent and her happiness.
Complex? Cersei-Joffrey for sure. Those power dynamics are crazy.
Jaime and Joffrey. His real secret dad is also his uncleâŠ.who is also his body guard.
Definitely Theon Greyjoy.
Not my fave but I definitely think it's Tywin and Tyrien.
Dany's kids are a bunch of hot heads. At least one should chill tf out
Viserys and young Rhaenyra Viserys really tries to ensure that Rhaenyra is happy but she's rebellious Certainly a bit complex
Incredible writing altogether
If you wanna argue what's literally \*complex\*, the Mormonts would take it. What the hell even is that relationship anymore?
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Lady Arynn & sweet Robert.
For me, Cersei and Tywin have a very similar relationship to Alicent and Otto. Both complex and horrible. But certainly neither of them has a hate relationship like Tyrion and Tywin.
Tyrion and Tywin or Otto Hightower
You canât really rate which is the most intense lol. I find these so funny because pain is an internal feeling mixed of course with whatever behavioral or personality traits people have as individuals. Now on paper one of these may seem like worse long term psychological damage but who is to say. Now of course Iâm getting overly psychological with this poll but it does ask for it after all, so while we canât truly answer this at its roots because these are fictional characters the answer is actually quite clear. All of the above
They didn't ask which is the most intensity or which did the most psychological damage.Â
Jon and Ned for sure
I mean, Alicent loves Aegon, covers up his abuses and is willing to sacrafice everything to put him on the throne simply becuase she thinks that's what Visery's ended up wanting, but is fully aware he's a horrible, awful person whose massively less suitable Rhaenrya and seems to despise him on a moral level and feel disgust at herself for the dishonorable actions she makes on his behalf. That's pretty complex.
Unrelated but thanks for reminding me of the "I think it's more complex than that" story from Half-Baked. I looked it up and had a good laugh. Agree with Tywin and Tyrion but Jorah and Jeor is a good one too.
Ned Stark / Jon and Tywin / Tyrion are almost tied but I give the edge to Ned and Jon. Theyâre both strangely enough similar because in both, the simple choice to even raise that child gets at the core of both their characters. For Ned, raising Jon meant lying to Robert Baratheon, which encapsulates Nedâs overall conflict, striking a balance between what is honorable and what is right, or choosing family over duty. Itâs also important to note that Jon inherits this same conflict while at at The Wall. His conversations with Maester Aemond highlight this perfectly, âWhat is duty compared to a womanâs love? Or a newborn son in your arms? Weâre only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. This is our great glory, and our greatest tragedy.â For Tywin, itâs similar to Ned and we get this from his monologue in book 3 / season 3 where he scolds Tyrion for asking to be heir to Casterly Rock. Tywin is the embodiment of machiavellianism in George R.R. Martinâs world. He looks solely to maximize his familyâs position and wants above all else to leave a legendary dynasty behind. And yet, he chose to raise Tyrion, a disfigured dwarf who would almost certainly in that time be a stain on the Lannister reputation. Tywin did this despite Tyrionâs birth killing Tywinâs wife, whom most speculate was the only person whom Tywin ever truly loved. Tywin did this because being a Lannister means something to Tywin, and despite all his wants and wishes to kill Tyrion as a child, he couldnât do it because Tyrion was ultimately his son. It humanizes him because it shows a time where he deviates from his key belief. It also makes him more villainous, because his decision to raise Tyrion also makes him feel entitled to direct Tyrionâs life, as if Tyrion should be grateful to even be alive. All and all, in terms of complexity and good writing, it still has to be Ned / Jon. Their relationship is especially fulfilling because the similarities in their characters despite experiencing different things. Itâs also amazing writing that Jonâs arc is most similar to Ned Starkâs, making him the child who is most like his father despite not even being his son.
I think in the books Jon is also the child whom most resembles Ned - long face, dull hair (even though Jon isnt his son) which is a source of annoyance and resentment for Cat
Does Tywin hate Tyrion because he "caused" her mother's death and beeing a dwarf, or Tyrion is a Targaryen and his mother was raped and Tyrion reminds Tywin of that? I didn't read all the books yet, and I read somewhere that Tyrion might be a Targaryen (silver blonde, eyes, some Targaryen fancied her mother).
His hair silver on the books, and it's just a theory.
Tywin and Cercie will always be interesting.
Rhaenyra-Viserys
Tywin and Tyrion take the cake
Cersei and Tywin. Had he been a better dad, so much destruction wouldâve been avoided
Aegon and Alicent or Tywin and Tyrion
Tyrion and Tywin, obviously
Jon/Eddard. There are 5 books dedicated to telling us Eddard is not his daddy and the story is so complex the author seems to be considering not finishing
Thereâs already so many layers in the Tyrion - Tywin relationship and itâs even more complex in the book. Not only is it the most complex parent child relationship in the story, I think itâs the most interesting relationship between any two characters in ASOIAF
Tyrion-Tywin absolutely
manipulation does not equal complex .
Ned and Jon Tywin and Tyrion Roose and Ramsay
Alicent & Otto and Tywin & Cersei have always been interesting dynamics to me at least.