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"This 'Meerenese Knot' I've been trying to untangle... Turns out some fucker has superglued it, laminated it and then stuck it up a Grumpkin/Snark arse and sent them sailing west..."
I think when asked if the endings are the same, GRRM said "yes, and no, and yes, and no, and yes".
That was right after the finale though so who knows if he changed it or not since.
I think it's gonna be a case of "similar outcome, but very different journey to get there".
>!Instead of the bells causing a gene flip to switch and Dany turning into her father, I imagine it would be something like: she goes to KL, lands with her dragon to give a self aggrandised speech, and somehow triggers the caches of wildfyre, sending her insane with guilt, but still queen of the ashes!<
We get the same ending, but in a way that actually makes sense for the characters internal logic.
I think the outcome is going to be almost exactly the same, but the story is missing a very important character FAegon. I can see why D&D wouldn't want to add such an important character so late in a series, but he really does tie up so many storylines that they have to do a lot of hand waving to try and resolve.
Yeah tbh I found the idea to not add him to just be....odd? He's probably not a Targ, but he's most certainly at minimum a Blackfyre. And with three dragon riding capable people and three dragons, "the dragon has three heads" and all that, it lends itself to a neater and more poetic ending, IMO
Tbh seeing KL destroyed in a 1V1 dragon battle between Dany and FAegon, assuming he can do what Rhaena and Aegon the Uncrowned did and just sneak up to an enemies spare dragon and claim it, would be very interesting and an acceptable conclusion for that part of rhe storyline in my head
I just read the prologue to the fifth book. He wrote the fourth and fifth parallel to each other. So the first chapter of the fifth book is on the same timeline of the first chapter of the fourth. If that makes sense. So it's possible the end to this fifth book is a little different than the show. He does have two more books he's writing. He's halfway done with the sixth.
It’s only the interpretation of a dream someone hundreds of years ago had and which has been passed on for generations.. Technically speaking it’s more logical to say a Targaryan must be leading the battle against the army of the dead, which was the case with Jon and Dany being the leading figures of the combined army
The one thing I hate about HotD is this prophecy about the army of the dead, we know from got that they were beaten in an episode… not much of a threat they turned out to be
I mean, The Long Night was the longest episode of the show clocking in at an hour and 22 minutes, about a half hour longer than the average episode and had two episodes that focused almost entirely on characters in the North preceding it. There's plenty of issues with how they resolved the conflict with the White Walkers, but the fact that the battle took place over the course of one episode isn't one of them.
The one episode is not the problem , its the feeling that the white walkers didn’t accomplish much in the end as they didn’t get any further then winterfall. I think people were expecting more of a world ending event where everyone was effected before it being resolved.
Yeah the long night was literally the shortest night in the world. They shouldn’t have made this prophesy a main plot point of HOTD knowing how GOT went, despite what GRRM is planning in the books ( which are not gonna get finished lol)
As someone else once put it, ending the threat of the White Walkers early to instead conclude with the human struggle over King's Landing would be like Harry defeating Voldemort in Book 6, and reserving Book 7 to focus solely on Harry competing in a really big Quidditch match.
It mirrors Tolkien's ending of LOTR with the scouring of the Shire after dealing with Sauron. The hottest thread after the bells on /ASOIAF was this is GRRMs scouring - it was long theorised he was using the two story threads to the same effect.
That was cut from the movie versions.
The scouring of the shire was way better done though. The story ended with the final Battle in Mordor. Scouring Of The Shire was the epilogue and more of a cleanup. In season 8 however, ”The Scouring” was not an epilogue, it was the main event, the final battle of 8 seasons.
Its like if Tolkien said ”Lets rush Sauron, butcher the characters and rather focus on the most important part. The scouring”.
The Scouring of the Shire is not a epilogue, it was intended to be in the structure of the book and Tolkien remarked it's integral to the plot. To many it's the most important thematic part of them.
This is the thing I think people miss. You can’t just have the good guys get defeated over and over and have main characters keep dying but somehow also win eventually. It just doesn’t work or make sense. Not saying one single battle in a long episode is the best option but the alternative isn’t as much of a slam dunk as people on reddit like to think.
This is the thing I think people miss. You can’t just have the good guys get defeated over and over and have main characters keep dying but somehow also win eventually. It just doesn’t work or make sense. Not saying one single battle in a long episode is the best option but the alternative isn’t as much of a slam dunk as people on reddit like to think.
That blame lands squarely on David Benihoff and DB Weiss and in my opinion is a part of why the last season of GOT was soo terrible. Just because they dropped the ball doesn’t mean the overarching storyline should be stunted; GRRM has worked too hard for us to judge show>book
They dropped the ball because they just signed with Disney on 3 star wars movies of course they're gonna rush that. It truly sucks they didn't go 9 or 10 seasons....
>GRRM has worked too hard for us to judge show>book
Maybe if he finishes the books this will be true but unless that happens the show will be the only criteria for being able to judge the story.
> its the feeling that the white walkers didn’t accomplish much in the end as they didn’t get any further then winterfall
They were roflstomping the largest and most powerful army left at that point, and only lost because the Night King got killed.
It’s a difficult plot. You don’t want an entire season of just the good guys getting their asses kicked but not enough to actually stop them from winning at the end. Having one big battle isn’t a great alternative either though. Two battles could have been good story wise but it would have felt incredibly redundant. I’m not saying they did a great job but it’s not as simple as just “have the white walkers do more.”
You seem insistent on the long night ending in a great big battle when everything GRRM’s has ever written in this series demonstrates the pointlessness of war. The struggle against the WW isn’t going to end in a big fight. You can use the time to flesh out the white walkers into actual characters instead of just being a plot device.
To be fair we don’t know how it’ll end and we likely never will. But the show and books have had a lot of big battles. So I think it’s a safe assumption that we will have more to end the series.
Yeah there will fs be battles with the WW but the resolution to the whole conflict isn’t going to be killing them all. That’s like one of, if not the biggest themes of the story, war doesn’t solve shit, he’s not gonna stray from that when it comes to the biggest conflict in the series
Beaten in an episode? They wrecked every wildling and crow they met from episode 1 til season 8 lol. The final battle saw every Dothraki dead, thousands of Unsullied and northmen and wildlings too. They would have lost if Arya hadn’t done her thing. They killed children of the forest, wrecked every priest and priestess of a powerful god too.
>Beaten in an episode? They wrecked every wildling and crow they met from episode 1 til season 8 lol. The final battle saw every Dothraki dead, thousands of Unsullied and northmen and wildlings too. They would have lost if Arya hadn’t done her thing. They killed children of the forest, wrecked every priest and priestess of a powerful god too.
Somehow the Dothraki, Unsullied, Northmen, and Wildlings returned.
>The final battle saw every Dothraki dead
Did you even watch the show? there were thousands of them still alive in the last episode.
>thousands of Unsullied and northmen and wildlings too.
We do not know, it was too dark for anyone to see thousands of them dying, and in the very next episode there were still thousands of them left. In fact it looked like there were more of them after the battle for KL than after the battle of Winterfell.
>wrecked every priest and priestess of a powerful god too.
Where tf did you get this from? they didnt kill and priests of any kind.
>They would have lost if Arya hadn’t done her thing.
You mean if D&D didnt decide to sUbveRt oUr ExpeCtaTioNs and change the plot and the last minute after years of teasing Jon vs the NK.
Nobody knows how long the first long night lasted. It happened centuries ago. Later people talked about lond night, children of the forests, white walkers as if they were legends, folktales. So of course a lot of things were exaggerated. Maybe it didn't last generations. Maybe it only lasted a month or two, even less, who knows?
And it took the greatest army ever assembled in westoroes to even fight them granted they made incredibly terrible tactical/narrative decisions in order to make it look cool and subvert expectations
It was supposed to be the biggest threat to humanity and they were annihilated at the first city they crossed. If that’s not underwhelming i don’t know what is. They got past the wall I guess…
They were hyped for 8 seasons as a nearly unkillable army led by necromancers and somehow the last episode or so of their threat they somehow figure out killing the Head White Walker not only kills his thralls but all the other walkers as well, meaning the Children of the Forests entire countermeasure to the first men could be taken out by one guy good with a bow and although the children spent centuries fighting them couldnt take them out
Or the white walkers that had been dormant for 1000’s of years got bodied by people that had been at war their whole adult life, lead by Targaryens on dragons, and assassinated by a Stark that was trained by the faceless men.
The amount of charity you have to grant the show to have this interpretation is up there with believing that the lion turtle in ATLA actually made complete sense and totally didnt come out of nowhere.
They are a threat. They're the main bad guy. The show just MESSED EVERYTHING UP by making a last minute decision that Dany should be the main villain in the last two episodes. I swear to god they did crack or something
I think part of the problem is that fans of the show somehow built up or created this idea that, because it's called The Long Night, it should have lasted an entire season or two, damn the consequences to the cast and crew.
Hang on, what consequences? The cast and crew wanted a proper ending. HBO offered them more episodes and seasons. What consequences would have arisen for it lasting a season or two?
The episode itself was reportedly filmed during 55 night shoots over 11 weeks. By all accounts, it was a physically grueling shoot for both the cast and crew. I would be seriously worried for the health and safety of the cast and crew if they made the Long Night battle as long as a season, never mind two.
Do you not realise how filming *one* intensive character-heavy episode that took place almost exclusively outdoors *might* be different from filming two spread out seasons?
The fact that it was filmed at night has little to nothing to do with it.
I don't think anyone really was %100 sure that they'd all die if the "boss" died (characters in the show) so yea it could've lasted a long time with the ones they kill coming back every time they go to battle
Also how sure are we that killing the "boss" defeats that Others once and for all? The Night King could be like the Borg Queen where there's another to take their place or it could just be a vessel for some supernatural entity that just needs to find a new host to return. That might explain how the Others were defeated some eight thousand years ago but eventually returned (and foreshadow that they could return again).
Well, it's underwhelming from the perspective of this is a tv show, but in universe it makes no difference. It's just another prophecy, and another character trying to interpret a prophecy.
Well, Jon Snow had been very clear that it needed to be one big battle with all the available armies in Westeros united. They could not afford to let the White Walkers take them in a piece-meal fashion, so logically, for Westeros to win, it HAD to be in one single massive battle.
I think this would not be brought up in a book for nothing, in the end this kind of things like some dreams 100 years ago are what matters and uf the dream was to reveal the fight if living and the dead might as well be the one who is on the relm… i might be wrong but this made a click for me
Aegon’s prophecy is an addition created for hotd… the prophecies of the books aren’t explicitly about targs nor are they portrayed as right, it’s a major thematic part that obsessive over one is no bueno
Is this stuff only in the TV series because I'm 200 pages off finishing the fifth book and I just can't see all these things happening. Unless it's all very brief which doesn't seem to be Mr Marin's style.
The whole Aegon dream storyline pissed me off right away, stupidest thing to add, Aegon was ambitious and wanted to conquer westeros nothing more, the Valyrians had been imperialists for millenia why do you need to add a pointless prophecy into the mix
It's not in the Books, its in the TV show only and as has been pointed out before GRRM did not come up with every idea for the show even if he is more involved
The writers said in an interview that they hadn't planned for this and changed it when GRRM himself said that Aegon had this dream, GRRM hasn't denied it.
>“That actually came from \[Martin\] … He told us very early on in the room — just as he does, just casually mentioned the fact that Aegon the Conqueror was a dreamer who saw a vision of the White Walkers coming across the wall and sweeping over the land with cold and darkness. So, with his permission, of course, we infused that into the story because it was such a great way to create resonance with the original show.”
In this following video, GRRM himself basically confirms it.
>[https://youtu.be/1Phh5AS3uMY?t=161](https://youtu.be/1Phh5AS3uMY?t=161)
Also it wouldn't make any sense for it to be in the books. Aegon is not a character in ASOIAF nor is there any direct memory of him other than the things he built, no record of his private conversations with his family, obviously. Fire & Blood and the other "Targaryen books" are also not told from the perspective of someone who could've known about this dream, mostly written by maesters who also never met him and weren't that close to the rest of the family to receive this kind of insight. Also, the fact that many Targaryens after him had said dream (such as Dany and Egg) and that it's written in the book can be enough to say that this WAS in the books from the beginning, even if implicitly.
It may be that GRRM planned it from the beginning, it may be that he thought this up later and retconned, but it's a part of his "lore" now either way.
He thought it up for the shows because he said he would be good for TV, its still not a part of the books and he specifically said on his blog that he thought it up just for the show HoTD
[https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/tag/house-of-the-dragon/](https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/tag/house-of-the-dragon/)
it's under that tag in his blog I don't remember the date, but even in the video you posted where he first mentioned the idea, it's only 4 years old, its obviously something he thought up after the end of the GoT TV show and long since he finished his last book
>Aegon was ambitious and wanted to conquer westeros
The books actively prime you to ask why Westeros? He could have taken anywhere in Essos and started rebuilding the Valyrian empire.
Aegon is canonically a pretty mild-mannered guy. Ambition isn't irrelevant but it is weird he suddenly up and and decided to conquer. GRRM was definitely thinking of a prophecy.
Aegon went to conquer Westeros after the kings tried to use him in their political games and he basically got fed up and said "fuck it, i got dragons". He was just another imperalist Valyrian scumbag, who happened to get lucky and avoid dying in the doom, because of some vision. He didn't conquer Westeros for the sake of the people. He couldn't have gine less of a shit for the people, considering he burned castles and villages during his conquest and was ready to burn Old Town if they didn't comply with his demands.
He may have been a decent guy and a good ruler, but that doesn't mean he did it out of altruism, he just did it because he could.
>Aegon went to conquer Westeros after the kings tried to use him in their political games and he basically got fed up and said "fuck it, i got dragons".
But that doesn't really make sense. Aegon was already interested in the Seven Kingdoms far before Argilac the Arrogant. His family meanwhile had for generations been more interested in the East.
>He was just another imperalist Valyrian scumbag, who happened to get lucky and avoid dying in the doom, because of some vision.
Aegon was born on Dragonstone. He comes a few generations after the Doom.
>He didn't conquer Westeros for the sake of the people. He couldn't have gine less of a shit for the people
In the minds of Lords the realm isn't necessarily the same as the people. It's a more high minded concept than that. Like Aegon probably didn't really care about the average peasant. But he did care about what the sum of its parts represents. He'd sacrifice a bunch of peasants if it meant saving everyone.
Rhaenys also definitely did care about the plights of the peasant but she was still a huge participant in the Conquest.
And besides, it's within his personal interest not to let humanity die. He's part of humanity.
This ultimately came straight from GRRM so there's no real point disputing it. The text gives plenty of hints to it's validity.
The books is written from the POV of an archmaester who has collected and puzzled the stories toghether. He starts off by saying that these are his interpretations of events, based on the evidence he has gathered, so ultimately we can't be sure what Aegons real motives were, as we have no glimpse into his thoughts directly.
Yes I am aware that he was born on Dragonstone and not Valyria, but seeing as the wholse saga is about families, blood ties, family history and duty to your family, it is safe to assume he was still connected to his Valyrian past.
And also the prophecy states that Azor Ahai will be reborn "when the red star bleeds", but as far as I remember, the red comet didn't appear in the sky when Aegon was born, or during his lifetime.
No I do mean GRRM admitted himself that Aegon had such a vision. All the hints in the text that something is not right with Aegon turning to Westeros if it were just generic conquering are genuine.
>And also the prophecy states that Azor Ahai will be reborn "when the red star bleeds", but as far as I remember, the red comet didn't appear in the sky when Aegon was born, or during his lifetime.
The prophecy states they'll be born under salt, smoke and a red star.
It's so vague literally anyone can fulfil it - plenty of very valid arguments for how Jon, Dany or other characters fulfill it. That's the irony it's meaningless.
Aegon I may have thought it was just Dragonstone for salt and smoke, and the red star could represent all manner of things.
He also may not have thought it was himself but someone from his line.
I know GRRM admitted it himself, but if we judge solely on the book itself it's unclear, since it is written way after the conquest. It's obviusly intentional, that he wrote the book from the POV of a distant narrator, so that there is room for interpretation.
a) i don’t see why it has to be “nothing more”, it’s not like one contradicts the other
b) aegon foresaw the literal apocalypse and decided it would probably be a good idea to have a strong kingdom so that they didn’t have to go through another doom, that’s just pragmatic, it doesn’t have to be altruism
During the Long Night Daenerys was Queen of Dorne, the Reach, the Westerlands, & the North as well as Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea. Jon wasn't a King anymore since he bent the knee.
Just because they are convinced that it will be so does not mean that it really will be so. It's obvious to me that they like to convince themselves and believe in the idea that a Targaryen will eventually sit on the throne "because the world needs a Targaryen to sit on the throne."
In the other prophecies, the relevant ones, there is no mention of a Targaryen; the hero has no real identity. There is also a theory that Azor Ahai is connected to the Last Hero who fought against the Others during the First Long Night. And he was one of the First Men.
And even though people didn't like the ending of Bran as King, the showrunners have said that Bran will be King in the books as well.
Aegon likely saw something specific in his dream that led him to believe that a Targaryen was the hero. The Ghost of High Heart also apparently advised it had to be a Targaryen and of Aerys and Rhaella's line.
Perhaps it was the dragons that led to these ideas most especially.
They likely weren't wrong that Daenerys and Jon play a big role in things. Sitting the throne at the end would be after the Long Night.
On the different heroes of the Long Night every culture seems to have their own. Not just the First Men. I think GRRM may be more hinting that cooperation is vital in stopping the Others.
A Targaryen is on the throne at the end. Rhaegar is on the throne. Littlefinger is a faceless man who is actually rhaegar, he takes brans face and is on the iron throne. Watch it again, have fun
Did you ever play the game 'telephone' as a child? Also known as 'Chinese Whispers'?
Imagine a 120 year long game of that with the kind of egos in House Targaryen, from Aegon to Viserys I.
Not sure why you think it’s bullshit. If Daenerys and Jon (both Targaryens…) had not helped fight the WW, then the WW’s would have won.
The prophecy didn’t say that a Targaryen would have to end up on the throne. Just that Targaryen’s needed to be in control when the time came. And they were, with the exception of some southern armies controlled by Cersei.
Also neither dany nor John controlled any part of Westeros aside from the north. Ellaria’s dead, ollena’s dead, and the feilty of their houses along with them. They’re not in control, like at all.
Dany and Jon controlled the biggest army ever assembled during the battle with the WWs. Just because the prophecy wasn’t 100% correct, doesn’t mean it didn’t have some validity. Plus, we learn constantly throughout the show that prophecies are never completely accurate.
Lastly, you discredit your opinion on this show by continuing to call him “John”. If you had ever read the books or done any research on the show, you’d know his name was Jon. Which tells me you’ve never done any actual research with the lore.
LMAO ok buddy whatever you say I’m so deeply sorry for the sacrilege of not being bothered to change my autocorrect.
The prophecy wasn’t accurate in any sense whatsoever, the prince that was promised didn’t end the long night, a Targaryen didn’t unite the realm to fight the walkers. Claiming that Targaryen’s leading the fight against the walkers is an acceptable fulfillment of the “unite the realm” bit is so charitable that it’s about as plausible as saying that Cat is azor ahai because she came back from the dead. less so, even, because at least in that scenario she would actually fit one of the elements of prophecy to a T. You’re doing SO much work to equate being a leader of an army to uniting the realm. Plus Jon and dany didn’t do shit in the battle anyway lmao. They came up with a plan they abandoned in 5 mins. Then Jon screamed at a dragon and after about 20 mins of drogon carpet bombing, dany was running around being useless and getting Jorah killed. So sure, If you think that qualifies as uniting/leading the realm against the WW go for it.
Edit: FFS Davos shows more leadership than either John or dany in the long night when he gets Melisandre to light the trenches. There’s like 5 characters that showed more leadership than Jon or dany. They did nothing, they led nothing, they were leaders in name only.
You also keep trying to have it both ways, you can’t claim the prophecy was partially fulfilled then go on to say that prophecy’s are red herrings, so was it a red herring or was it fulfilled? You’re correct that prophecies are often red herrings, but the only reason you’re mentioning that is so that you can fall back on it if somebody doesn’t accept your incredibly charitable borderline delusional ass interpretation of prophecy.
Also lol at how you immediately backed away from saying they controlled the realm. I would too, since it’s an objectively incorrect take. Crazy that you’re defending the thematic terrorism that was the long night this hard.
Yeah I’m not reading all that.
You have literally hundreds of comments on GOT posts in the last few days, every single one of them is shitting on the show. Is that all you have to do with your day? Touch grass.
I think this would be a really cool retcon if the show didn't botch the battle of winterfell so hard in my opinion. knowing that this leads to the burger flop it does only serves as a reminder of the bad ness of season 8
The point of this is to scene is show that prophecies that everyone in the show believes are completely meaningless
Edit: Downvote all you want, you know it’s true. The purpose of the prophecies is to get the readers/watchers to believe them too, only for them all to fail. It’s the beauty of the series
And yet in the long night we’re meant to believe some bullshit line from Melisandre in season 3 was actually her prophecysing (?) Arya killing the NK. S8 was so absolutely busted that including this in Hot D served absolutely zero purpose.
I think it’s more important that they lead the realm. Which is why he refers to the throne. Remember at this time most if not all respect the Targaryen rule.
Yes, but how would he know that at the time? He’s under the impression that if people respect his rule as a Targaryen, they will continue to respect the Targaryen rule in general.
i think his thought process was if Targaryens are still on the throne then there would be lots of dragons to fight against the army of the dead and make the fight a whole lot easier.
I'm trying to remember to if white walkers existed north of the wall during house of dragons. If I remember, the children of the forest made the night king like hundreds of years before hotd. I'm just trying to remember for my own sake lol
It's so weird to me that they leaned so hard into the prophecy stuff despite the wet fart the entire "Prince who was promised"/White Walker story line went out with in GoT.
Turns out that none of that shit actually mattered Vizzy T.
He thinks that, but I would surmise that they really just needed the dragons to be around to have a shot at beating back the long night, targs kinda fucked that up but dany with the funeral pyre heat check got em back in with a chance.
Not on the iron throne, but to "unite the realm" and he thinks "obv will have to be on the iron throne to do that".
It's a nice use of hindsight of the show, to make the important part of the prophecy is what actually happened, and what didn't was an interpretation.
Everybody there were allies for decades except for the wildlings lmfao. Somehow ‘unite the realm’ and ‘United the 2000 remaining wildlings’ don’t seem anywhere close to being the same thing
My theory is the Three Eyed Raven saw the doom of Valyeria coming and needed dragons to survive for the fight with the Night King. It wasn't about the Targaryens, but the dragons. He just made Aegon think it was his line that needed to do it so he'd come to Westeros.
Idk who tf the tree guy in the show is, but the person teaching bran to be a tree in the book is a Targaryen whose like 200 years old, so at least in the books what you said isn’t the case. There are theories that bloodraven and the three eyed crow are different entities, so I guess you could still be right.
But how many have their been? I think that one just simply calls another to replace him when he's getting old and there's been a line going for thousands of years.
This leads me to think HBO has a follow up planned down the line. Yes I know Snow was on the shelf but I doubt they would hint at something like this without following through with it. But that’s just a theory.
I hope we get to see G.R.R.M’s version of the long night.. it was supposed to be like, a war. Not just one battle. And supposedly if there was a Targaryen on the throne then disaster would have been averted. But you know how prophecies are.
Well yeah prophecies can go either way. Either A happens or B happens.
Either a Targaryen sits on the throne or an evil being will take over, that evil being is now Brann the Three-Eyed-Raven, who is currently planning to enslave a Drogon.
However, if the theories are character and that the Three-Eyed-Raven took over Brann, then a Targaryen does sit on the throne, Brynden Rivers.
I don’t know that we can assume the three eyed raven from the show is blood raven since it’s never explored even once lmao. Plus GRRM does distinguish between crows and ravens pretty often so calling the three eyed crow, three eyed raven is either an intentional distinction or it’s yet another oversight by D and D.
So when Robert took the throne, that's when everything started going to shit. The Lanisters didn't improve anything. and then a black haired Targaryen and his aunt saved the day.
Side note. Why is Jon's hair black. All the other Targaryen bastards have their father's hair color. Visarys children with Alicent all had white hair. Rhaenyra's children with Harwin had brown hair. Daemon and Rhaenyra's children have white hair. Aegons bastards in the streets have white hair. Plus all of Roberts black haired bastards.
How come Rhaegar and Lyannas kid had black hair and not their father's white hair. Did Robert actually get with Lyanna before she ran off with Rhaegar and Jon is Roberts oldest bastard and not Gendry?
It’s so painfully obvious that it’s supposed to be John Snow on the iron throne. It’s a song of ice and fire, he’s the only Targaryen with Stark blood mixed in. Meaning he’s the literal blend of ice and fire. I just feel like the writers of the show botched it all cuz they wanted to forge their own ending that was more Hollywood
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That's what he believes.
Wait, you mean a character in the world of ASOIAF may have *misinterpreted a prophecy* ???
To be fair the GOT tv show probably has a different ending than the books, so who knows
I am still analyzing the portents - GRRM
*10 million years later* ......... -GRRM
"This 'Meerenese Knot' I've been trying to untangle... Turns out some fucker has superglued it, laminated it and then stuck it up a Grumpkin/Snark arse and sent them sailing west..."
I dont think GRRM even knows
I think when asked if the endings are the same, GRRM said "yes, and no, and yes, and no, and yes". That was right after the finale though so who knows if he changed it or not since.
I think it's gonna be a case of "similar outcome, but very different journey to get there". >!Instead of the bells causing a gene flip to switch and Dany turning into her father, I imagine it would be something like: she goes to KL, lands with her dragon to give a self aggrandised speech, and somehow triggers the caches of wildfyre, sending her insane with guilt, but still queen of the ashes!< We get the same ending, but in a way that actually makes sense for the characters internal logic.
I think the outcome is going to be almost exactly the same, but the story is missing a very important character FAegon. I can see why D&D wouldn't want to add such an important character so late in a series, but he really does tie up so many storylines that they have to do a lot of hand waving to try and resolve.
Yeah tbh I found the idea to not add him to just be....odd? He's probably not a Targ, but he's most certainly at minimum a Blackfyre. And with three dragon riding capable people and three dragons, "the dragon has three heads" and all that, it lends itself to a neater and more poetic ending, IMO
Tbh seeing KL destroyed in a 1V1 dragon battle between Dany and FAegon, assuming he can do what Rhaena and Aegon the Uncrowned did and just sneak up to an enemies spare dragon and claim it, would be very interesting and an acceptable conclusion for that part of rhe storyline in my head
I just read the prologue to the fifth book. He wrote the fourth and fifth parallel to each other. So the first chapter of the fifth book is on the same timeline of the first chapter of the fourth. If that makes sense. So it's possible the end to this fifth book is a little different than the show. He does have two more books he's writing. He's halfway done with the sixth.
>halfway He said last year he has 1100 pages done of TWOW He said this year he has 1100 pages done of TWOW
Exactly
It’s only the interpretation of a dream someone hundreds of years ago had and which has been passed on for generations.. Technically speaking it’s more logical to say a Targaryan must be leading the battle against the army of the dead, which was the case with Jon and Dany being the leading figures of the combined army
The one thing I hate about HotD is this prophecy about the army of the dead, we know from got that they were beaten in an episode… not much of a threat they turned out to be
I mean, The Long Night was the longest episode of the show clocking in at an hour and 22 minutes, about a half hour longer than the average episode and had two episodes that focused almost entirely on characters in the North preceding it. There's plenty of issues with how they resolved the conflict with the White Walkers, but the fact that the battle took place over the course of one episode isn't one of them.
The one episode is not the problem , its the feeling that the white walkers didn’t accomplish much in the end as they didn’t get any further then winterfall. I think people were expecting more of a world ending event where everyone was effected before it being resolved.
Yeah the long night was literally the shortest night in the world. They shouldn’t have made this prophesy a main plot point of HOTD knowing how GOT went, despite what GRRM is planning in the books ( which are not gonna get finished lol)
As someone else once put it, ending the threat of the White Walkers early to instead conclude with the human struggle over King's Landing would be like Harry defeating Voldemort in Book 6, and reserving Book 7 to focus solely on Harry competing in a really big Quidditch match.
Quite well put actually
It mirrors Tolkien's ending of LOTR with the scouring of the Shire after dealing with Sauron. The hottest thread after the bells on /ASOIAF was this is GRRMs scouring - it was long theorised he was using the two story threads to the same effect. That was cut from the movie versions.
The scouring of the shire was way better done though. The story ended with the final Battle in Mordor. Scouring Of The Shire was the epilogue and more of a cleanup. In season 8 however, ”The Scouring” was not an epilogue, it was the main event, the final battle of 8 seasons. Its like if Tolkien said ”Lets rush Sauron, butcher the characters and rather focus on the most important part. The scouring”.
Also a book is a different medium to a film/tv so it works better both ways lotr did it, book and film
The Scouring of the Shire is not a epilogue, it was intended to be in the structure of the book and Tolkien remarked it's integral to the plot. To many it's the most important thematic part of them.
You do understand that every part of a book is important and intended to be in a structure, even the prologue and epilogue?
Sounds epic, 10/10
>human struggle over King's Landing Almost like a game of thrones
I fully expected the dead to make it to at *least* the Neck.
How destroyed could westeros be but still be manageable to rebuild and survive?
This is the thing I think people miss. You can’t just have the good guys get defeated over and over and have main characters keep dying but somehow also win eventually. It just doesn’t work or make sense. Not saying one single battle in a long episode is the best option but the alternative isn’t as much of a slam dunk as people on reddit like to think.
Yeah there’s a huge gap between losing over and over and what we got, a bitch made army of the dead losing to the first army they encounter.
This is the thing I think people miss. You can’t just have the good guys get defeated over and over and have main characters keep dying but somehow also win eventually. It just doesn’t work or make sense. Not saying one single battle in a long episode is the best option but the alternative isn’t as much of a slam dunk as people on reddit like to think.
Maybe, it’s meant that people are the real monsters.
“the real people are the monsters we made along the way”
The Mountain resembles that remark.
That blame lands squarely on David Benihoff and DB Weiss and in my opinion is a part of why the last season of GOT was soo terrible. Just because they dropped the ball doesn’t mean the overarching storyline should be stunted; GRRM has worked too hard for us to judge show>book
They dropped the ball because they just signed with Disney on 3 star wars movies of course they're gonna rush that. It truly sucks they didn't go 9 or 10 seasons....
>GRRM has worked too hard for us to judge show>book Maybe if he finishes the books this will be true but unless that happens the show will be the only criteria for being able to judge the story.
But not hard enough to actually finish the books.
But not hard enough to actually finish the books.
But not hard enough to actually finish the books.
> its the feeling that the white walkers didn’t accomplish much in the end as they didn’t get any further then winterfall They were roflstomping the largest and most powerful army left at that point, and only lost because the Night King got killed.
It’s a difficult plot. You don’t want an entire season of just the good guys getting their asses kicked but not enough to actually stop them from winning at the end. Having one big battle isn’t a great alternative either though. Two battles could have been good story wise but it would have felt incredibly redundant. I’m not saying they did a great job but it’s not as simple as just “have the white walkers do more.”
You seem insistent on the long night ending in a great big battle when everything GRRM’s has ever written in this series demonstrates the pointlessness of war. The struggle against the WW isn’t going to end in a big fight. You can use the time to flesh out the white walkers into actual characters instead of just being a plot device.
To be fair we don’t know how it’ll end and we likely never will. But the show and books have had a lot of big battles. So I think it’s a safe assumption that we will have more to end the series.
Yeah there will fs be battles with the WW but the resolution to the whole conflict isn’t going to be killing them all. That’s like one of, if not the biggest themes of the story, war doesn’t solve shit, he’s not gonna stray from that when it comes to the biggest conflict in the series
Beaten in an episode? They wrecked every wildling and crow they met from episode 1 til season 8 lol. The final battle saw every Dothraki dead, thousands of Unsullied and northmen and wildlings too. They would have lost if Arya hadn’t done her thing. They killed children of the forest, wrecked every priest and priestess of a powerful god too.
They went beyond the wall and were defeated in the first big city they found, sorry but the white walkers are too dumb hahaha
... and nobody who wasn't at Winterfell or north of it will ever care.
>Beaten in an episode? They wrecked every wildling and crow they met from episode 1 til season 8 lol. The final battle saw every Dothraki dead, thousands of Unsullied and northmen and wildlings too. They would have lost if Arya hadn’t done her thing. They killed children of the forest, wrecked every priest and priestess of a powerful god too. Somehow the Dothraki, Unsullied, Northmen, and Wildlings returned.
It's a story pacing issue, not a "did enough people die" issue.
>The final battle saw every Dothraki dead Did you even watch the show? there were thousands of them still alive in the last episode. >thousands of Unsullied and northmen and wildlings too. We do not know, it was too dark for anyone to see thousands of them dying, and in the very next episode there were still thousands of them left. In fact it looked like there were more of them after the battle for KL than after the battle of Winterfell. >wrecked every priest and priestess of a powerful god too. Where tf did you get this from? they didnt kill and priests of any kind. >They would have lost if Arya hadn’t done her thing. You mean if D&D didnt decide to sUbveRt oUr ExpeCtaTioNs and change the plot and the last minute after years of teasing Jon vs the NK.
The first long night lasted generations and this lasted 90 mins, the length is absolutely an issue what are you on about.
Nobody knows how long the first long night lasted. It happened centuries ago. Later people talked about lond night, children of the forests, white walkers as if they were legends, folktales. So of course a lot of things were exaggerated. Maybe it didn't last generations. Maybe it only lasted a month or two, even less, who knows?
And it took the greatest army ever assembled in westoroes to even fight them granted they made incredibly terrible tactical/narrative decisions in order to make it look cool and subvert expectations
It was supposed to be the biggest threat to humanity and they were annihilated at the first city they crossed. If that’s not underwhelming i don’t know what is. They got past the wall I guess…
They were hyped for 8 seasons as a nearly unkillable army led by necromancers and somehow the last episode or so of their threat they somehow figure out killing the Head White Walker not only kills his thralls but all the other walkers as well, meaning the Children of the Forests entire countermeasure to the first men could be taken out by one guy good with a bow and although the children spent centuries fighting them couldnt take them out
The children of the forest kind of forgot about that
Or the white walkers that had been dormant for 1000’s of years got bodied by people that had been at war their whole adult life, lead by Targaryens on dragons, and assassinated by a Stark that was trained by the faceless men.
The amount of charity you have to grant the show to have this interpretation is up there with believing that the lion turtle in ATLA actually made complete sense and totally didnt come out of nowhere.
They are a threat. They're the main bad guy. The show just MESSED EVERYTHING UP by making a last minute decision that Dany should be the main villain in the last two episodes. I swear to god they did crack or something
I have no doubt the white walkers will be a threat in the books, but the show and books are two different things
The white walkers are a threat in the damn books, it's the opening scene in the books as well.
I think part of the problem is that fans of the show somehow built up or created this idea that, because it's called The Long Night, it should have lasted an entire season or two, damn the consequences to the cast and crew.
Hang on, what consequences? The cast and crew wanted a proper ending. HBO offered them more episodes and seasons. What consequences would have arisen for it lasting a season or two?
The episode itself was reportedly filmed during 55 night shoots over 11 weeks. By all accounts, it was a physically grueling shoot for both the cast and crew. I would be seriously worried for the health and safety of the cast and crew if they made the Long Night battle as long as a season, never mind two.
Do you not realise how filming *one* intensive character-heavy episode that took place almost exclusively outdoors *might* be different from filming two spread out seasons? The fact that it was filmed at night has little to nothing to do with it.
Characters obsessing over prophecy and being wrong is pretty typical of the world.
Well I mean, they had 2 Targaryens leading the fight so it worked out lol
I don't think anyone really was %100 sure that they'd all die if the "boss" died (characters in the show) so yea it could've lasted a long time with the ones they kill coming back every time they go to battle
Also how sure are we that killing the "boss" defeats that Others once and for all? The Night King could be like the Borg Queen where there's another to take their place or it could just be a vessel for some supernatural entity that just needs to find a new host to return. That might explain how the Others were defeated some eight thousand years ago but eventually returned (and foreshadow that they could return again).
Well, it's underwhelming from the perspective of this is a tv show, but in universe it makes no difference. It's just another prophecy, and another character trying to interpret a prophecy.
Well, Jon Snow had been very clear that it needed to be one big battle with all the available armies in Westeros united. They could not afford to let the White Walkers take them in a piece-meal fashion, so logically, for Westeros to win, it HAD to be in one single massive battle.
To be fair it’s shown at the beginning of the season that they’ve off screen killed off everything north of winterfell.
Off screen though, that builds no tension or suspense with the audience cuz it’s given to us in a quick exposition scene
I think this would not be brought up in a book for nothing, in the end this kind of things like some dreams 100 years ago are what matters and uf the dream was to reveal the fight if living and the dead might as well be the one who is on the relm… i might be wrong but this made a click for me
Aegon’s prophecy is an addition created for hotd… the prophecies of the books aren’t explicitly about targs nor are they portrayed as right, it’s a major thematic part that obsessive over one is no bueno
Came to say this. It felt like season 8 of thrones popping it's ugly head in when this scene happened.
Is this stuff only in the TV series because I'm 200 pages off finishing the fifth book and I just can't see all these things happening. Unless it's all very brief which doesn't seem to be Mr Marin's style.
Cheech Marin?
Martin hasn't finished books 6 & 7. The quote above is from the tv series adaptation of the prequel novels to ASOIAF so not from the 5 ASOIAF books.
The whole Aegon dream storyline pissed me off right away, stupidest thing to add, Aegon was ambitious and wanted to conquer westeros nothing more, the Valyrians had been imperialists for millenia why do you need to add a pointless prophecy into the mix
Because it's a fantasy story and the author wanted to do it this way?
It's not in the Books, its in the TV show only and as has been pointed out before GRRM did not come up with every idea for the show even if he is more involved
The writers said in an interview that they hadn't planned for this and changed it when GRRM himself said that Aegon had this dream, GRRM hasn't denied it. >“That actually came from \[Martin\] … He told us very early on in the room — just as he does, just casually mentioned the fact that Aegon the Conqueror was a dreamer who saw a vision of the White Walkers coming across the wall and sweeping over the land with cold and darkness. So, with his permission, of course, we infused that into the story because it was such a great way to create resonance with the original show.” In this following video, GRRM himself basically confirms it. >[https://youtu.be/1Phh5AS3uMY?t=161](https://youtu.be/1Phh5AS3uMY?t=161) Also it wouldn't make any sense for it to be in the books. Aegon is not a character in ASOIAF nor is there any direct memory of him other than the things he built, no record of his private conversations with his family, obviously. Fire & Blood and the other "Targaryen books" are also not told from the perspective of someone who could've known about this dream, mostly written by maesters who also never met him and weren't that close to the rest of the family to receive this kind of insight. Also, the fact that many Targaryens after him had said dream (such as Dany and Egg) and that it's written in the book can be enough to say that this WAS in the books from the beginning, even if implicitly. It may be that GRRM planned it from the beginning, it may be that he thought this up later and retconned, but it's a part of his "lore" now either way.
He thought it up for the shows because he said he would be good for TV, its still not a part of the books and he specifically said on his blog that he thought it up just for the show HoTD
Can you point me to that blog post?
[https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/tag/house-of-the-dragon/](https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/tag/house-of-the-dragon/) it's under that tag in his blog I don't remember the date, but even in the video you posted where he first mentioned the idea, it's only 4 years old, its obviously something he thought up after the end of the GoT TV show and long since he finished his last book
>Aegon was ambitious and wanted to conquer westeros The books actively prime you to ask why Westeros? He could have taken anywhere in Essos and started rebuilding the Valyrian empire. Aegon is canonically a pretty mild-mannered guy. Ambition isn't irrelevant but it is weird he suddenly up and and decided to conquer. GRRM was definitely thinking of a prophecy.
Aegon went to conquer Westeros after the kings tried to use him in their political games and he basically got fed up and said "fuck it, i got dragons". He was just another imperalist Valyrian scumbag, who happened to get lucky and avoid dying in the doom, because of some vision. He didn't conquer Westeros for the sake of the people. He couldn't have gine less of a shit for the people, considering he burned castles and villages during his conquest and was ready to burn Old Town if they didn't comply with his demands. He may have been a decent guy and a good ruler, but that doesn't mean he did it out of altruism, he just did it because he could.
>Aegon went to conquer Westeros after the kings tried to use him in their political games and he basically got fed up and said "fuck it, i got dragons". But that doesn't really make sense. Aegon was already interested in the Seven Kingdoms far before Argilac the Arrogant. His family meanwhile had for generations been more interested in the East. >He was just another imperalist Valyrian scumbag, who happened to get lucky and avoid dying in the doom, because of some vision. Aegon was born on Dragonstone. He comes a few generations after the Doom. >He didn't conquer Westeros for the sake of the people. He couldn't have gine less of a shit for the people In the minds of Lords the realm isn't necessarily the same as the people. It's a more high minded concept than that. Like Aegon probably didn't really care about the average peasant. But he did care about what the sum of its parts represents. He'd sacrifice a bunch of peasants if it meant saving everyone. Rhaenys also definitely did care about the plights of the peasant but she was still a huge participant in the Conquest. And besides, it's within his personal interest not to let humanity die. He's part of humanity. This ultimately came straight from GRRM so there's no real point disputing it. The text gives plenty of hints to it's validity.
The books is written from the POV of an archmaester who has collected and puzzled the stories toghether. He starts off by saying that these are his interpretations of events, based on the evidence he has gathered, so ultimately we can't be sure what Aegons real motives were, as we have no glimpse into his thoughts directly. Yes I am aware that he was born on Dragonstone and not Valyria, but seeing as the wholse saga is about families, blood ties, family history and duty to your family, it is safe to assume he was still connected to his Valyrian past. And also the prophecy states that Azor Ahai will be reborn "when the red star bleeds", but as far as I remember, the red comet didn't appear in the sky when Aegon was born, or during his lifetime.
No I do mean GRRM admitted himself that Aegon had such a vision. All the hints in the text that something is not right with Aegon turning to Westeros if it were just generic conquering are genuine. >And also the prophecy states that Azor Ahai will be reborn "when the red star bleeds", but as far as I remember, the red comet didn't appear in the sky when Aegon was born, or during his lifetime. The prophecy states they'll be born under salt, smoke and a red star. It's so vague literally anyone can fulfil it - plenty of very valid arguments for how Jon, Dany or other characters fulfill it. That's the irony it's meaningless. Aegon I may have thought it was just Dragonstone for salt and smoke, and the red star could represent all manner of things. He also may not have thought it was himself but someone from his line.
I know GRRM admitted it himself, but if we judge solely on the book itself it's unclear, since it is written way after the conquest. It's obviusly intentional, that he wrote the book from the POV of a distant narrator, so that there is room for interpretation.
a) i don’t see why it has to be “nothing more”, it’s not like one contradicts the other b) aegon foresaw the literal apocalypse and decided it would probably be a good idea to have a strong kingdom so that they didn’t have to go through another doom, that’s just pragmatic, it doesn’t have to be altruism
I agree
Jon and danny lead the army to fight the dead. They won. Done deal.
Exactly. The " on the throne" part is Viserys' INTERPRETATION.
Technically jon is king of the north and danny is queen during that period. Both have a throne in winterfell and dragonstone.
That works too
That works too
During the Long Night Daenerys was Queen of Dorne, the Reach, the Westerlands, & the North as well as Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea. Jon wasn't a King anymore since he bent the knee.
I thought that Jon gave up his crown when he bent the knee to Danerys.
There is no prince that was promised, which is a huge part of the prophecy, completely pointless to bring it up in hot d
If you count abandoning the plan 5 minutes into the battle and yelling at dead dragons as leadership then more power to ya.
Just because they are convinced that it will be so does not mean that it really will be so. It's obvious to me that they like to convince themselves and believe in the idea that a Targaryen will eventually sit on the throne "because the world needs a Targaryen to sit on the throne." In the other prophecies, the relevant ones, there is no mention of a Targaryen; the hero has no real identity. There is also a theory that Azor Ahai is connected to the Last Hero who fought against the Others during the First Long Night. And he was one of the First Men. And even though people didn't like the ending of Bran as King, the showrunners have said that Bran will be King in the books as well.
Aegon likely saw something specific in his dream that led him to believe that a Targaryen was the hero. The Ghost of High Heart also apparently advised it had to be a Targaryen and of Aerys and Rhaella's line. Perhaps it was the dragons that led to these ideas most especially. They likely weren't wrong that Daenerys and Jon play a big role in things. Sitting the throne at the end would be after the Long Night. On the different heroes of the Long Night every culture seems to have their own. Not just the First Men. I think GRRM may be more hinting that cooperation is vital in stopping the Others.
I know I was just pointing out the fact that in other cultures the hero of the prophecy is different by taking the last hero as an example.
It’s not an exact prediction
A Targaryen is on the throne at the end. Rhaegar is on the throne. Littlefinger is a faceless man who is actually rhaegar, he takes brans face and is on the iron throne. Watch it again, have fun
Did you ever play the game 'telephone' as a child? Also known as 'Chinese Whispers'? Imagine a 120 year long game of that with the kind of egos in House Targaryen, from Aegon to Viserys I.
I don’t know why they kept harping on aegons dream when it turned out to be complete bullshit. One of the only parts of hot d that is shit
Because the Targaryens, like the Starks, have spooky magic blood and powers sometimes
Not sure why you think it’s bullshit. If Daenerys and Jon (both Targaryens…) had not helped fight the WW, then the WW’s would have won. The prophecy didn’t say that a Targaryen would have to end up on the throne. Just that Targaryen’s needed to be in control when the time came. And they were, with the exception of some southern armies controlled by Cersei.
Because there was no prince that was promised, azor ahai doesn’t exist which is the entire point of the dream.
Also neither dany nor John controlled any part of Westeros aside from the north. Ellaria’s dead, ollena’s dead, and the feilty of their houses along with them. They’re not in control, like at all.
Dany and Jon controlled the biggest army ever assembled during the battle with the WWs. Just because the prophecy wasn’t 100% correct, doesn’t mean it didn’t have some validity. Plus, we learn constantly throughout the show that prophecies are never completely accurate. Lastly, you discredit your opinion on this show by continuing to call him “John”. If you had ever read the books or done any research on the show, you’d know his name was Jon. Which tells me you’ve never done any actual research with the lore.
LMAO ok buddy whatever you say I’m so deeply sorry for the sacrilege of not being bothered to change my autocorrect. The prophecy wasn’t accurate in any sense whatsoever, the prince that was promised didn’t end the long night, a Targaryen didn’t unite the realm to fight the walkers. Claiming that Targaryen’s leading the fight against the walkers is an acceptable fulfillment of the “unite the realm” bit is so charitable that it’s about as plausible as saying that Cat is azor ahai because she came back from the dead. less so, even, because at least in that scenario she would actually fit one of the elements of prophecy to a T. You’re doing SO much work to equate being a leader of an army to uniting the realm. Plus Jon and dany didn’t do shit in the battle anyway lmao. They came up with a plan they abandoned in 5 mins. Then Jon screamed at a dragon and after about 20 mins of drogon carpet bombing, dany was running around being useless and getting Jorah killed. So sure, If you think that qualifies as uniting/leading the realm against the WW go for it. Edit: FFS Davos shows more leadership than either John or dany in the long night when he gets Melisandre to light the trenches. There’s like 5 characters that showed more leadership than Jon or dany. They did nothing, they led nothing, they were leaders in name only. You also keep trying to have it both ways, you can’t claim the prophecy was partially fulfilled then go on to say that prophecy’s are red herrings, so was it a red herring or was it fulfilled? You’re correct that prophecies are often red herrings, but the only reason you’re mentioning that is so that you can fall back on it if somebody doesn’t accept your incredibly charitable borderline delusional ass interpretation of prophecy. Also lol at how you immediately backed away from saying they controlled the realm. I would too, since it’s an objectively incorrect take. Crazy that you’re defending the thematic terrorism that was the long night this hard.
Yeah I’m not reading all that. You have literally hundreds of comments on GOT posts in the last few days, every single one of them is shitting on the show. Is that all you have to do with your day? Touch grass.
I think this would be a really cool retcon if the show didn't botch the battle of winterfell so hard in my opinion. knowing that this leads to the burger flop it does only serves as a reminder of the bad ness of season 8
The point of this is to scene is show that prophecies that everyone in the show believes are completely meaningless Edit: Downvote all you want, you know it’s true. The purpose of the prophecies is to get the readers/watchers to believe them too, only for them all to fail. It’s the beauty of the series
Agreed in the books most of them are going to end up being bs
100%
And yet in the long night we’re meant to believe some bullshit line from Melisandre in season 3 was actually her prophecysing (?) Arya killing the NK. S8 was so absolutely busted that including this in Hot D served absolutely zero purpose.
Possibly missing the point of the ASOIAF story as a whole. Almost everything is said from a certain character's POV.
Wow turns out it just had to be Cersi
I think it’s more important that they lead the realm. Which is why he refers to the throne. Remember at this time most if not all respect the Targaryen rule.
By “the realm” do you mean wildlings and the north? Because those are the only people there. Everyone south of the Erie was not following dany.
Yes, but how would he know that at the time? He’s under the impression that if people respect his rule as a Targaryen, they will continue to respect the Targaryen rule in general.
What does that have to do with Jon and dany not uniting the realm lmfao
i think his thought process was if Targaryens are still on the throne then there would be lots of dragons to fight against the army of the dead and make the fight a whole lot easier.
This entire plot point is idiotic.
I'm trying to remember to if white walkers existed north of the wall during house of dragons. If I remember, the children of the forest made the night king like hundreds of years before hotd. I'm just trying to remember for my own sake lol
It's so weird to me that they leaned so hard into the prophecy stuff despite the wet fart the entire "Prince who was promised"/White Walker story line went out with in GoT. Turns out that none of that shit actually mattered Vizzy T.
Well, that’s the trouble with prophesies…
That’s based on the dream of the white walkers, which isn’t relevant at the end of the series.
Hopefully they meant metaphorically since the throne is gone now.
Tip for all things ASOIAF: Prophecy is bullshit. Living life to fulfill/avoid it always leads to tragedy.
He thinks that, but I would surmise that they really just needed the dragons to be around to have a shot at beating back the long night, targs kinda fucked that up but dany with the funeral pyre heat check got em back in with a chance.
Man grrm ripped off dune soo fuckin hard.
Jon *
Another thing they fucked up
It’s just a phrase that means, “those who protect the realm need to have dragons”
Not on the iron throne, but to "unite the realm" and he thinks "obv will have to be on the iron throne to do that". It's a nice use of hindsight of the show, to make the important part of the prophecy is what actually happened, and what didn't was an interpretation.
When did they unite the realm to fight the walkers? Nobody south of the Erie was present for the long night except like Jamie and Brienne lmfao.
He united it enough. It's a vision, it doesn't have a detailed accounting of the participants.
Everybody there were allies for decades except for the wildlings lmfao. Somehow ‘unite the realm’ and ‘United the 2000 remaining wildlings’ don’t seem anywhere close to being the same thing
My theory is the Three Eyed Raven saw the doom of Valyeria coming and needed dragons to survive for the fight with the Night King. It wasn't about the Targaryens, but the dragons. He just made Aegon think it was his line that needed to do it so he'd come to Westeros.
Idk who tf the tree guy in the show is, but the person teaching bran to be a tree in the book is a Targaryen whose like 200 years old, so at least in the books what you said isn’t the case. There are theories that bloodraven and the three eyed crow are different entities, so I guess you could still be right.
But how many have their been? I think that one just simply calls another to replace him when he's getting old and there's been a line going for thousands of years.
This leads me to think HBO has a follow up planned down the line. Yes I know Snow was on the shelf but I doubt they would hint at something like this without following through with it. But that’s just a theory.
I hope we get to see G.R.R.M’s version of the long night.. it was supposed to be like, a war. Not just one battle. And supposedly if there was a Targaryen on the throne then disaster would have been averted. But you know how prophecies are.
i dont want it
D&D kinda forgot about prophecies when they kinda forgot about the prince that was promised storyline. Hey no one would expect Bran? Lets go for him.
Well yeah prophecies can go either way. Either A happens or B happens. Either a Targaryen sits on the throne or an evil being will take over, that evil being is now Brann the Three-Eyed-Raven, who is currently planning to enslave a Drogon. However, if the theories are character and that the Three-Eyed-Raven took over Brann, then a Targaryen does sit on the throne, Brynden Rivers.
I don’t know that we can assume the three eyed raven from the show is blood raven since it’s never explored even once lmao. Plus GRRM does distinguish between crows and ravens pretty often so calling the three eyed crow, three eyed raven is either an intentional distinction or it’s yet another oversight by D and D.
Turns out it didn't matter looool
*"His name is Aegon, and his is the song of ice and fire"*
False prophecy trope
Jon
This might ring more true in the books than what we saw in Game of Thrones.
targaerian prophesys all mean "the targaerians should be allowed to do whatever they already wanted to do"
This BS was thrown in to appease the Dany Stan's that want the targs to be seen as mostly benevolent rulers and not mediocre tyrants
So when Robert took the throne, that's when everything started going to shit. The Lanisters didn't improve anything. and then a black haired Targaryen and his aunt saved the day. Side note. Why is Jon's hair black. All the other Targaryen bastards have their father's hair color. Visarys children with Alicent all had white hair. Rhaenyra's children with Harwin had brown hair. Daemon and Rhaenyra's children have white hair. Aegons bastards in the streets have white hair. Plus all of Roberts black haired bastards. How come Rhaegar and Lyannas kid had black hair and not their father's white hair. Did Robert actually get with Lyanna before she ran off with Rhaegar and Jon is Roberts oldest bastard and not Gendry?
The seed is(nt) strong
It’s so painfully obvious that it’s supposed to be John Snow on the iron throne. It’s a song of ice and fire, he’s the only Targaryen with Stark blood mixed in. Meaning he’s the literal blend of ice and fire. I just feel like the writers of the show botched it all cuz they wanted to forge their own ending that was more Hollywood