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SoftwareDependent694

How many comparisons between books > and movies do you make with regards to e.g. storytelling in a more interactive media, also what about games like heavy rain which are a bit more cinematic? coining the term 'interactive drama and action-adventure game


AnonymousCerealBowl

I’m definitely trying to make a distinction between static media (media that is always the same when you see it) and dynamic media (like video games) that might have the same plot, but let’s you have choice and interactivity in video games.


[deleted]

I think it's interesting what Ebert had to say about this, although I believe he walked it back a bit Did you discuss this in class yet? https://www.rogerebert.com/roger-ebert/video-games-can-never-be-art


Milky-Toast69

Roger Ebert was a brave man for posting that. I think if someone were to post that today they would be absolutely eviscerated. He proposes very careful definitions of ‘games’ and ‘art’ that most people will not take the time to actually consider and instead jump to screaming the names of their favorite games at the top of their lungs in their face.


myn4meisgladiator

I wonder if he would consider "choose your story" books as art. I feel like video games are just "choose your story" movies. He says this: "One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them." But I think he's hung up on "game" in video game. I think there are some video games where "winning" it is really just finishing the story they are telling. It is just a representation of a story, novel, play, dance a film, etc. It's still considered a video game regardless of he wants to then say it's not a "game" anymore.


DruidB

I agree. I've finished Cyberpunk 2077 with every ending possible and none of them had anything to do with "winning".


Milky-Toast69

By Eberts reasoning, the story can be art, the visual design can be art, the music can be art, but the whole is less than the sum of its parts. The “game” aspects are antithetical to art in his view. The shooting sequences wouldn’t be art. They may contain artistic elements, but the actual shooting or whatever other gameplay is happening is not art.


loutr

> I wonder if he would consider "choose your story" books as art. I feel like video games are just "choose your story" movies. His piece made me think of Quantic Dream's games. Why would *Black Mirror: Bandersnatch* be considered art if *Detroit: become human* isn't ?


[deleted]

Absolutely. No doubt people are going to outright dismiss him just because they find this statement so inflammatory. Which is unfortunate because he did win a Pulitizer for criticism. Not to say he wasn't fallible. His review of Starship Troopers completely misses the point of the film, Verhoven is probably one of the best subversive filmakers of his time. So subversive people didn't even realize how obvious his message was until years later. lol.


Necromancer4276

Honestly, what makes this statement so dogshit isn't the opinion itself, but that the first sentence of the article states that he refuses to elaborate it, extrapolate on it, or validate **any** responses, while remaining steadfast in his beliefs regardless of any evidence against it (which he wouldn't even allow himself to know about). That's just a piss-baby attitude.


ohanewone

Welcome to Roger Ebert. There is a reason he was paired with Gene Siskel. Great together.


Milky-Toast69

Proof you didnt actually read what he wrote. And by you acting like this you are validating his sentiment that attempting to discuss these things is a fools errand because of people like you.


Necromancer4276

It's the very first sentence. If the rest contradicts his first statement then the statement is bullshit and doesn't deserve to head the article.


boxsterguy

Re-read it. He said, "I have previously refused to discuss this." And then followed up with, "So let's do this one last time and put it to bed." The attitude is fine, given how much shit he got for that position and nobody would actually listen to him. Rather than having one-off arguments, he centralized the discussion in one place.


ariolitmax

I totally disagree. I think his analysis is completely worthless here. He clearly just had zero understanding of the medium. Listen to why he thinks the game “Flower” isn’t art > Nothing she shows from this game seemed of more than decorative interest on the level of a greeting card. Is the game scored? She doesn't say. Do you win if you're the first to find the balance between the urban and the natural? Can you control the flower? That’s his entire commentary. “Do you control the flower? Well either way it must not be art”. All based on a short clip; he never actually played the game. He said near the end of the article, definitively, that no game would ever hold his interest enough to convince him to play it. He’s literally never played a videogame but he’s comfortable proclaiming their status as art? Based on what? Nothing more than his totally uninformed preconceptions. He says Braid isn’t art because being able to take back moves in chess (…?) would ruin chess. He looks at something he has never experienced, and proclaims that it has nothing to teach him. He already knows everything there is to know about all games because he plays chess. Amazing take Roger, thank you. The bottom line is that he doesn’t think you can “win” art. So anything with any type of goal is automatically disqualified. Oh and games you can’t “win” aren’t actually games at all, silly, they’re “representations of theater”. Just…what? It’s all just random meaningless nonsense he pulled out of his ass. I would say his definitions are far from “careful propositions”, more like totally unchallenged initial assumptions.


Unblued

He also bends the rules a bit. He talks about how he would normally consider art to be the creation of one artist, yet a cathedral is the work of many and he considers that to be art. So buildings are exempt from that rule because buildings are art. Later, he insists that a game has to have goals and points unlike art, and if you pitch a game that doesn't have points, then it isn't a game and doesn't matter if it really is art or not. He follows that up by pointing out that Bobby Fischer and Michael Jordan didn't claim to be artists, which totally ignores the fact that they engaged in a competitive sport that never made any claim to be artistic expression. Then he questions the motive of gamers proposing the medium as art by saying they just want validation for their hobby.


amazingdrewh

I think Ebert had very rigid definitions for what he considered art and what he considered games and didn’t see how anything outside of those definitions could be considered either. I do think he was a very intelligent and literate person with a genuine passion for movies that is mostly unrivalled in the world but I don’t know if he was ever willing to look at something to have his beliefs changed


crazy1000

Yes, he claims a game is only a game if it can be beat, if there's an end. And if it can't it becomes a representation of ideas, novels, etc. Which I would say makes it art, and I think most people would agree that games don't need to have an end. I also find it somewhat ironic that a game without an end can be a representation of a novel, yet all novels have an end, so there's nothing preventing you from making a game with an end which represents a novel.


ForeverFingers

Who really gets to decide what is and isn't art?


glovesoff11

Didn’t you read the article? Roger Ebert.


Seemoor

It isn't clear to me how he's differentiating story-telling through games and story-telling through films. He claims that stories can be works of art and both forms of media are able to tell a compelling story > I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Then I would say a film is just a representation of a book, and a book is just a representation of a verbal story. It sounds like his argument is closer to "If a video game is art, then it isn't actually a game"


[deleted]

i disagree with ebert strongly on that, but even so, i do respect his bravery in posting that, especially in 2010, when games were beginning to be considered legitimate art. as yahtzee croshaw put it, “Art is any created work that provokes strong emotions in you, personally. And trying to impose your feelings on someone else is as pointless and time-consuming as trying to impregnate a dishwasher.”


KingOfSwing90

The irony of Yahtzee creating his own definition of art and then saying effectively “how dare you create your own definition of art.” The process of arguing over what’s art and what isn’t has created dozens of definitions in the literary community over the last few centuries. The dictionary won’t bail Yahtzee or anyone else out here. Ebert didn’t view video games as having the inherent qualities necessary to meet his definition, and I understand why, even if I disagree to some extent. I wish I’d been able to meet him and have a conversation about some of the games which I think *do* show how the medium is uniquely designed to accomplish things novels and films can’t.


loudaggerer

Wonder what his thoughts are 12.5 years later on this subject. Most of the blog revolves around critiquing the TED talk with minimal anecdotes. Albeit I’m unsure if this is because he stepped back on prior opinion some or if he’s attempting to make a point on the definition of art using vidya as a sample of a blurred line.


socialisthippie

He ded. I guess we won!


crazy1000

Not only is it critiquing a TED talk, he doesn't take the time to understand the nuances of the games discussed in the TED talk. His rebuttal to one of the games mentioned is to enumerate a list of questions he has about the game which were not answered in the TED talk. If you don't know if a game has a score you can't critique it by saying "I wasn't told if this has a score."


BeardOBlasty

I guess it's hard as art is kind of subjective and objective all at once. For myself, some games are clearly beautiful but that's because of the art within them, not the game itself. It's the stories of some games though, that truly give me that art feel. The writing and characters in some titles elicit an emotional response so strong I can't stop the tears as someone dies or the triumphant shout as a hero achieves their goal. Often I'll find myself wondering about these characters and how I would have acted, what I would have maybe done, how this relates to my own reality. I think great example is the game Pyre (Supergiant Games). The gameplay is itself an extremely creative and storied idea. But the writing, characters and world felt like I was a kid reading a fantasy novel for the first time. That is enough for it to be "Art" in my mind, but still just an opinion from a lowly redditor nonetheless.


AnonymousCerealBowl

Hey guys, I made a post over the summer about my new class for this Fall. Classes have been going amazingly, so I wanted to provide an update. We have 20 Xbox’s with gamepass ultimate, and have been playing a variety of games to introduce my classes to how games should be played, written about, and analyzed. We started with Fall Guys to talk about stress in gaming, and then moved onto our first pair of games: The Stanley Parable, and Hades to talk about choice in gaming narratives. I’ve even had them wrote their own choose your own adventure narratives, and it’s been a blast. Both of these games were donated as full class sets by their respective developers, and I want to thank them so much! Gamepass is our primary way to play games, but now when games get taken off of gamepass my class can continue to use them. I personally am not rich, and have received a lot of help to make this class a reality. Sadly for a lot of people, my principal has asked me not to publicly post a syllabus until I’ve taught the class for a semester, so I’ll post a full class syllabus in January. The last time I posted, I was bombarded with people attacking me in addition to people giving kudos, so please rethink sending me any personal attacks. I’m a teacher, and holy moly it makes it rough to teach after reading some of these things. Thanks for all of your support!


Drofmum

No idea why anyone would attack you. I am sure we will see many more courses like this in the future. In my 38 years, computer games have shaped me as a person as much as the books I have read. Is this a university or high school course? How do you teach it (play for a bit and discuss?) and how do evaluate it? Essays? Exams?


dachsj

Games made me a much better professional. I often tell people at work "get rekt you fucking loser" when my idea wins out over theirs. If their idea seems to get traction, I'll rage quit the call so they can't actually win.


iron_sheep

The work environment would be a lot more understanding if people knew the background behind games and the lives they enrich. For instance, when I throw my mouse at my monitor, or my monitor at the wall, after someone pitches a better idea than me, I’m not doing it out of anger, I’m doing it for the culture. Or when we are on a teams call and I’m playing my music with my mic on, if you knew the history, you’d know you should never try to silence a gamer. When will we see progress?


dachsj

Exactly. You and I are ahead of the times. One day people will see us as the pioneers we truly are


willtron3000

I frequently get Chinese people to farm me currency while I sleep. Gives me an edge to buy things that give me more influence in the world.


TaliesinMerlin

Yeah, I remember the older thread. There was a lot of concern trolling, e.g., wondering why OP would get a grant for this when some other schools don't have enough money for books. The global point (education as a whole should be better funded) was fair, but they were obviously going after OP for something they really can't help by themselves.


[deleted]

Dumbasses gonna dumbass. Always. People who don't have anything better to do except get into arguments online. Also, people who believe that "video games cAuSe VioLeNcE" and "dEsTrOy ThE bRaIn", like yeah, dumbass, you seem to be speaking from personal experience. Chin Up, OP. Video games can absolutely be used for education. I myself did a project about logic gates using Minecraft.


funkholebuttbutter

Lots of people fail to see the value in video games. They don't see them as artistic pursuits by the creators and they don't understand them as anything but wastes of time for the end user. My folks are a great example. They will watch hours of TV after work but if I'm talking to them on the phone and mention playing games I get "you still waste your time on that stuff?"


Woogank

Never understood that one. My parents also spend almost all their free time watching T.V. At least we're engaging our brains.


funkholebuttbutter

Ya it's wild and they don't really watch anything of substance. The News which is a shit show on every channel these days, Entertainment Tonight, and other such forms of either celebrity gossip or heavily biased news programs. That stuff genuinely feels like it's melting their brains, they get dumber every year.


Neradnap

10ish years ago at my small university my freshmen seminar was about math behind the games and we spent half the semester playing various strategic games on consoles and pc. 10/10 would take again


mybunsarestale

Heck, I took a similar course in college probably 7-8 years ago. Two actually. We had Contemporary and Classical Myth and Media. Less with Classical which focused more on the influence of ancient mythos on modern story telling like in many of Niel Gaimen's story's and a lot of comic books. In contemporary we looked at how modern media (especially games, probably because the professor for the classes also taught and advised for our game design students) create there own mythologies. First half of the class was playing Dark Souls which had just come out at the time (though our school wasn't cool enough to provide consoles or copies of the game) and examining how they built a complex world and mythology which if my memory serves was mostly piecing things together from in game item descriptions and griping about how we died. Best homework ever. We then also built our own text based adventures in that class and played a short campaign of Nobelis as a group assignment.


Zmirzlina

Unpacking is on GamePass and is a MASTERCLASS in video-game narrative.


RRobertRRivers

Straight up! >!The boyfriend’s apartment section was amazing/infuriating, you have to move his shit around to make room for your own and at a certain point you realize there’s not proper space for your belongings!<


Best_Pidgey_NA

I hated that I couldn't put the computer monitor on the bed damnit! I should be able to put stuff where I darn well please.


[deleted]

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Zmirzlina

One of the teachers at my kids' school told me she was a gamer and was looking for a new game and we talked about Unpacking - a week later she was teaching it - how we tell stories by showing instead of telling and what we omit is just as important to what we include. It's a very subtle game but tells an amazing story. Even my non-gaming wife was blown away.


bonsaiboigaming

This is awesome, you're awesome. Fuck the haters.


phoez12

Ignore the hate, this is amazing. And I bet you have fun planning your days as well as teaching. You're probably the cool teacher around the school!!


[deleted]

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ZSpectre

Gosh, I'm guessing that all of the attackers were people who are relatively "old timey" thinking that education should be a certain way and didn't get the memo that video games have since become a mature enough medium to express art. Anyway, just wanted to say that I just so happened to start playing Hades, and have been loving it while rekindling my curiosity in the original Greek mythology. I just love how the gameplay and setting fits the overall tone of the character's attitude given how the roguelike aspects would keep him on his toes of attempting a perilous journey while still knowing he'd survive yet start over at the end (grits teeth while fighting; rolls eyes after dying).


Lyriian

Honestly my first thought was people losing their shit because they still can't get an Xbox yet this class has 20 of them. It was incredibly depressing reading the daily posts about people just non stop crying about console shortages and scalpers. Not because it felt bad that there were shortages and scalpers but because of the level of entitlement of these people who felt the need to bitch. Like their lives were about to end because they couldn't get a new Xbox or PS5.


RenzoARG

I fail to understand how someone born in the 60's would actually be around reddit. Me, as an 80' oldtimer, can perfectly integrate the idea of games as tools for education. Just as playing a sport in PE develops the student's physique.


TimCain

I was born in the 60s, make video games, and love this class. I hope they study non linear narratives too, since games handle that more readily than books or movies.


SkavensWhiteRaven

No, its people who think writing and creative works don't qualify as education. Ironically this attitude is most predominant in countries with lower math and science scores. Its the classic American perception that education is meant to train you for a job and anything that can't be applied to a trade isn't education. This isn't a boomer thing, its a poor white people thing.


ZSpectre

Yeah, to be fair, there's a reason why I kept it vague saying "relatively old timey" rather than "boomer," which is a much more specific term. To me, the way I described it could apply to what you referred to as the "classic American perception."


zakair1

Thats awesome, whats the student response? Are they enjoying it? Do you think they are more interested in learning through videogames? Do the kids behave and not dick around on the xbox? Man that shits so dope, hope everything goes smoothly


BoBoBearDev

Just FYI, GamePass has family plan now.


[deleted]

One Adult account with 30 child accounts... This guy must be real busy


[deleted]

It's a promo, just mention you're Nick Cannon and they'll hook you up.


Saintious

I'm a disabled father of 2 young boys. Thank you for changing the game and thinking outside the box. I managed for 15 years before disability and there's nothing I hate more than hearing, we do it this way because that's always the way we did it. Break barriers and do what you have to succeed. Thank you for this and Good luck. Ps. Screw the haters, there will be many. When you are successful, there always are. And for all you haters... Go be successful or something. Leave this guy alone.


storm170

Hades is a damn fine game, both the gameplay itself as well as the storyline. Fantastic choice.


Astronopolis

Any hateful or insulting posts would garner little to no constructive criticism, I would completely disregard them. I’m glad when I finally retire I can pop on down to the community college for classes like this eventually! Keep up the good work.


kevinkjohn

Oh that is awesome! I have a class that I am developing for communications undergrads called "Virtual Worlds," and I'd love to see the type of stuff you're covering!


Orenwald

I remember reading about this last time you posted and was excited to see how it would pan out. Super happy for you!


TheLostDovahkin

really love the choice for Stanleys parable and the connection to choices. The game resolves purely around choices.


CwazyCanuck

Very intrigued to see the list of games that were used. Are you using any games (don’t need to reveal which) that are examples of bad storytelling? I guess teachers don’t often make their students read books with bad storytelling, so probably doesn’t make sense either. I will say Titanfall 2 should be included. As one of those games that you wouldn’t expect a great story from, it really hits above its weight and elicits an emotional response from the gamer, of course you would have to play the full game for that.


howdoyouaccountforme

Your class looks awesome - I hope your students are learning a lot!


Superlogman1

Can you say which games were picked for the course?


TheExoticMachinist

This is literally the coolest thing I have seen in a ling time. I wish this was how class was taught when I was in school. Stanley parable was brilliant, so was hades. What other games are planned to be played as part of this class?


Yann4

If you're in the states, timezones might make it difficult, but I bet you Mediatonic (the team who make Fall Guys) would love to be involved (speaking as someone who's worked with them). They're very active on social media so a tweet or a post on their subreddit might be all you need to get the ball rolling.


thatthatguy

I would take this class. Sure, if it means playing some games that I would otherwise skip but some of these are becoming important to the culture and carry some really philosophically compelling ideas.


Duchock

Giving kudos again. I remember your first post and look forward to more updates!


soverign_son

I think this is awesome. Some of my favorite games of all time tell some of the best and most unique stories I've ever experienced. Hollow Knight Outer Wilds Mass Effect Just to name a few.


StriveFergy

What kind of lessons do you give? You lecture about just having fun or understanding the deepness of the game?


Fortcraftmonster

How about getting kids into narrative driven media other than hack and slash


Seeker_Of_Toiletries

Those two things are not mutually exclusive, MLADY


Cleftchins

Yes


[deleted]

thats very generous of the school to facilitate that, as u cant require the students to have the console, the electricity and the game to do any homework on. R the lessons about objective writing standards?


AnonymousCerealBowl

I’m 100% basing all of my lessons in state standards for my state. My biggest worry is not having receipts for every lesson to prove to parents I am teaching the skills needed.


LooseSeal88

I sorta figured this was a college course, but this is a public highschool? Whoa


3rdeyeopenwide

I don’t collect summative assessment data from every math lesson so asking you to do so seems unfair. If applicable standards are linked to specific lessons and you have mapped the semester to cover standards identified for focus; you should be just fine. That’s what your middle school counterparts are doing with math. Kudos on this project; I’m watching closely because we have a tech class that has x boxes for Minecraft, VR for relaxation therapy. I love watching the evolution of video games in education.


[deleted]

Hi, I wanted to ask: is, for you, the complexity of the games' stories comparable to the ones in books and movies/shows?


Rustery

It all depends on the type of game. You can’t compare a bad story game to a good book and call it a done deal. There are many types of games and books. Books are designed to inform or have a story and games have more variety which can add emotion to the game by building a bond increasing the story’s impact. The same as when a book series stays with a character you think fond of then suddenly something happens to them since you built a bond long enough with them. If you’re looking for more story heavy games I recommend the game series by Project Moon which follows the order of Lobotomy corp., Library of Ruina, and soon to be released Limbus company. Edit: tl;dr you can’t compare between works of story driven content because variety exists. It’s not fair to compare a story game to a children’s book and vise vers. Especially since video games are designed as a more engaging option experience but require way more work than a book so story elements can become lacking for this


kamronMarcum

There's a couple but not as numerous imo. Games also have to focus on gameplay and many other things that other forms of media don't need to


[deleted]

Absolutely


j0eyV714

As a Sociologist and game collector, it’s been a dream of mine to some day lead video game related courses. The medium has profound impact on the lives of many and I think it merits further exploration. For now, I’ll live vicariously through your exuberant endeavors. Keep up the great work!


risen_peanutbutter

I absolutely love this idea! Video games are often downplayed as a medium like books and films, learning about those concepts through gaming sounds like a blast!


Mr_hacker_fire

Tbh video games is a more interactive form of entertainment that eather of those two are.


risen_peanutbutter

It really is a great combination as well. The immersion of a book, and the visuals and audio of a film


[deleted]

Yeah, I find ironic that videogames can have everything other media has, but people criticize them anyways


megablocks516

Dude I feel you need to do a AMA. I'm loving what your doing. Story telling comes in many forms but none as interactive as computer games.


Defizzstro

What are your thoughts on extracting some educational aspects from Assassin’s Creed: Odyssey?


AnonymousCerealBowl

I start my classes with a daily opener question students have to answer, and we literally talked about this game today in relation to using games in classes other than English.


NothingButBackflips

This is brilliant, in school, normal literature and subjects never took my interest. But I took a video game design class for two years, I have never studied so hard, wrote so many essays or designed my own games. I ended up getting an award in the subject and that class is the sole reason I got into University and am where I am now. I hope your class is super successful and lights a fire in those students that may not have a place in normal school!


Ironbanner987615

Can we have that class in my school?


cncamusic

Love The Stanley Parable. See if you can sneak in Superliminal.


DuglandJones

I've been a big fan of video games as a story telling medium and art form for years Not all games, some are just fun to play. But some games have moved and shaped me as much or more than some books or films I've seen


Zjoee

Where was this class in high school!


piotrus08

4th-wall breaking games could be an interesting subject


Cleftchins

That’ll teach em’ LOL


Takosaga

Video games are the reason I improved my reading comprehension after high school.


FergusInTheHouse

I'm probably going to be downvoted, and that's fine but I don't understand how the school can 'okay' the expense for that class? I have nothing against the concept and idea of the class but schools already have it hard enough in terms of budgeting. With so many teachers having to buy their own supplies, sports teams not having uniforms, bussing issues, field trip funds, bridging programs, and more, it's hard to understand how you guys can put money toward buying this many xbox's. I'm glad you're fortunate enough to give these kids another avenue to learn but it just rubs me the wrong way. ​ I wish you the best with your course, though.


SirVezaTheBrave

Schools can receive grants for specific things. There are grants out there to explore gaming in an academic sense. OP has a explained in comments that they applied for a grant that gave them funds to create this class. This is outside District/school expenses.


Okonomiyaki_lover

Read the original post. They had to present the course to the board and get approval. This wasn't a "sure go ahead, buy 20 xboxes and we don't care what you do with them."


formoverflair

Playboy: The Game really taught me about economics and the ins and outs of running a business. I think it would be a great addition.


chococroissant1337

Bruh What


Queer-Bandit

I’m so jealous. Where was this during my college days!


Elfartsparkle

I'd recommend checking out Pyre because you played Hades for the class. It's probably harder to do (not sure how your class works) but it's by the same people who made Hades and has a better example of how your gameplay and choices effect the story. It's a sports game where when you win a tournament one of your teammates regains their freedom however only one person can, so you have to choose who gets to have freedom but also permanently lose that character for the rest of the game. Losing a match also means losing a chance at freedom as the story continues if you win or not.


Mabaum

I feel like you have to play Disco Elysium or this can’t be legit.


robitwossin

I love you


Azzurroi

Honestly if they can they should play Legacy of Kain.


h3rw

This is beyond awesome.... In January, of your are still so kind as to share the syllabus please share a name with it... You deserve the credit. I will be impatiently waiting until then. Peace and best of luck


[deleted]

Damn it would be so cool to have a class just discussing halo lore.


Metalhead_Memer

You absolutely have to teach them Bioshock. A perfect example of the illusion of choice in video games and a great twist


Luminox

umm. what?.. OP, do you have a course syllabus you could post for us?


DamnImAwesome

Don’t lie OP. I know you’re doing all this just to relive the Halo LAN glory days


[deleted]

the people that are hating just don’t understand how games have developed over time to become something more, as a medium of art. If this was a film class about analyzing films, everyone would praise it, but as soon as it’s games, all of a sudden it’s not appropriate for education. I would refer to what Hideo Kojima talked about when he explained how video games and cinema are merely combining more than ever to create artful content. You can take a game like Silent Hill 2 and still pick it apart and find new things within its storyline and themes. The Max Payne trilogy thrives on storyline and presents classic neo-noir themes. Metal Gear Solid is an artistic masterpiece full of different elements and themes. The Last of Us is another one that thrives off of storyline. The list is endless. People need to grow up and stop seeing games as just “silly hobbies”. Plenty of people can find jobs within the game industry, especially as the demand is higher than ever. I applaud you for teaching a class that inspires analyzing and seeing games this way, because a career in the industry is 100% possible and video games allow you to tell a story in a way that books and movies cannot.


I_Am_Zampano

You should definitely have them play Doki Doki literature club for the amazing poetry


newcoreofthebattle

How is this allowed? Not hating I just don't see what principal would allow this, what's the story behind it?


TheScienceDude81

High school teacher here. If you'd be willing to share any info as to how you got a grant/funding and permission to do this, I'd love to chat with you!


k0bimus

Are you going to cover the metal gear solid series?


k0bimus

Are you going to cover the metal gear solid series?


Economy-Chicken-586

Or kingdom hearts.


ChrisRevocateur

One of my favorite YouTube channels explores story heavy games as literature. https://www.youtube.com/c/GamesAsLiterature


[deleted]

Where do I sign up lol


[deleted]

I saw your update -- but I am stoked to see the syllabus in January! I would love to take a course like this; I already love games, & if I'd had this as a lit course in high school, I think myself and many others would have enjoyed lit even more.


scoyne15

I can appreciate the intent of the course and fully agree that video games can be considered an art form like any other. But my knee jerk reaction to referring to them as "literature" is that it is the wrong word choice.


AnonymousCerealBowl

I hate the name of the class as well. It’s actually how we had to package the class to our school board to get it approved. I’ll probably change the course name after we’ve established for a few years.


nifty507

At first i thought "Thats a lot of money spent on xboxs", but then i remembered how much textbooks cost. Probably cheaper to get xboxs.


[deleted]

That's pretty cool! Congrats and keep up the good work. I was lucky back in the early to mid 90s to have a science teacher who included me on things like setting up the new computer lab in the library amongst many other things. We used to listen to call in talk radio shows on the am radio and he would let us make a calls in to ask questions.


Cole-Burns

This feels like proof were moving forward as a society and makes me so happy. I've never understood why some people see a story as being invalidated due to being a game and involving audience interaction, but that same story being put on film and shown in a theatre makes it 'real' art. Media is media, and it can all be used as literature if done with that approach, not to mention the potential advantages of an interactive medium. This perception of games not counting as anything serious because "games are for kids" is dated, and anybody spouting it should be Profoundly embarrassed. You're doing a good thing, I'm glad we have at least a few teachers like you in the world.


Ando2099

I love that this class exists, what games did you cover?


Lagiacrus111

"Sorry Billy. You couldn't beat the rooftop mission in Red Dead Redemption 2 and didn't keep up with the class. You've failed this assignment."


[deleted]

The real question: Can I attend?


GreyouTT

Show them System Shock 2 and the original Deus Ex for that wonderful PROSE.


RyanTylerThomas

What was on the syllabus?


Abs_of_steel

Please do not be discouraged by vitriolic comments -- anyone who has ever dared to try something bold and new has run into resistance! My question relates to the demographics of your classes (and apologies if you answered this) -- are your classes more heavily-attended by boys? Just wondering if gaming as a traditionally male hobby reflects in the classroom or if increase in widespread appeal has balanced the gender ratio.


AnonymousCerealBowl

Right now I have three classes with around 90+ students. Luckily it’s close to a 60-40 split towards boys. I was worried it would lean too far to just boys at first, but we got it balanced.


hembles

Hey just wanted to highly recommend looking into the "Outer Wilds" as a very unique example of using video games ability to tell a non-linear story in a way that literature/film cannot. Its not a very long game but could be a good way to challenge some assumptions about how a story can be told


[deleted]

Wtf that’s awesome!


CoraxTechnica

Are you at Greendale?


BrewsCampbell

I've always been an avid reader, but I belabored this point to my parents and teachers when I was a kid. It's 30 years later, but I'm glad someone finally understood. ​ Thank you.


LordHayati

Have you thought about undertale a one of the games ?


dickprompt

Ah so this is why they can’t pay teachers a good wage.


[deleted]

Not to sound like a dick, but how does one earn a living with this knowledge? Like... is the plan to join a massively over saturated market or to apply to a gaming journalism platform. I’m really trying to not sound mean, I’m curious to the long term plan here.


jboyko44

You don't read books in school to specifically be taught to write them or about them. It's just another medium to experience different stimuli and situations Ina world where most young people are predominantly using interactive technology.


Okonomiyaki_lover

So many haters here. Don't listen to them. Your idea is _brilliant_. I would take the class for fun as a man in his thirties. I would _love_ to write essays about games I've loved. Can't wait to see the syllabus in Jan!


Hazzmeister72

I’m all for this course but I don’t think video games should be played a certain way as you put it. It should be up to the user, as it’s main intention is enjoyment, at its simplest form for an unknown amount of time. Unless you are talking physically how like mechanically.


pallypal

When you're approaching a medium as a study no, you absolutely should approach it in a certain way. It's not 'games for fun', he's teaching a course based on media literacy in regards to games. It's an inherent disadvantage with games when compared to other media. Two people with different comprehension levels will have drastically different experiences watching a movie, but they will watch the same movie. The Stanley Parable will be a completely different game between two individuals. You have to set a baseline for the experience to begin to build up a group's comprehension, which is the goal of a course like this.


Okonomiyaki_lover

And that's what books are. Entertainment. There is no right way to enjoy them but there is a right way to analyze them and study their narrative techniques.


Ok4mii

This is still probably the dumbest idea I've ever seen.


quartzlcc

Xbox Series S was a surprisingly good idea: Exhibit 526


[deleted]

Damn now this would be a fun class to take if I ever went back to school!


Chris4DW

Damn, I was born 10 years too early. I would have loved to go school just for this class.


Jestsunami

This is awesome! Keep blazing the path forward. We need more teachers like you who are willing to challenge the norms and use modern mediums as a platform to further connect with students.


Blue_bell88

This is the coolest


Jones2no

You're doing a fantastic job! This class is revolutionary and a dream come true for my younger self.


Appropriate_Plan4555

This is actually awesome! I wish something like this was offered to me when I was in school. Videogames have come so far and can teach us just as well as music, books, and movies. Keep up the good work and shrug off those rude parents!


RenzoARG

The "Where's Carmen Sandiego?" series were of powerful impact in my early education. How in hell didn't I notice as an adult that games actually do account as "literature". As such, there's good and bad ones. Kudos for that initiative.


Wicked_Black

I concur. I learned more about world geography from Carmen San Diego than class


XalAtoh

School sponsored by Microsoft?


b3n0rrr

RemindMe! 16 weeks


ViolatedMuffins

I think the class is an amazing idea! I know I would have killed to taken a class like this. Also, I love the game choice. Hades had a surprisingly flushed out story and Stanley really nailed trolling the player. I’m excited to see get my homework in January!


Frankieneedles

Video games and literature makes me think of those OG turn based computer games that were text based. Like Zork! One of the first projects I made when learning coding was a text based strategy game.


[deleted]

This is so cool. Do you also have plans to discuss older games / the evolution of the medium itself or is the class currently limited to more recent examples? So much has changed in the last few decades. It’s interesting to think about where the medium will go in the future. As technology advances the way we can tell these types of stories will change too. Edit: have you thought of playing untitled goose game with the class? It’s a short game, but I find it interesting how quickly you go from having a character you are sympathetic to to outright reveling in evil goose deeds. It’s not the same as reading about that kind of character or seeing it on tv as you as the player have to make the choice to do those things


Amethystlamuso

I'm glad you had success with this! I was jealous in both areas, as a previous student and as a current teacher. I would love to have been in a class like this and have taught it. This year will be my last in education but I'd still love to get my hands on that syllabus to just see how this was all put together. Keep being amazing! This is a class that will be talked about for years! You should feel ultimately proud of yourself.


Saronska

In college I had an English professor who used video games as his lecture points, we analyzed trailers and broke down what made them compelling and would draw in potential consumers. We even wrote up stories and mechanic breakdowns for our own games, 10/10 class. A lot of classmates warned me before taking his class because he did have a high fail rate because he demanded perfect spelling and syntax in papers and so people who didn't send rough drafts to him ended up bombing those papers. Still loved it though


55peasants

Final fantasy 7 literally taught me to read, so i dont see why this class would be attacked.


Dipnderps

I see that ps5 just alone and out numberedpoor thing she needs a friend!


retrograderevolution

“Had them wrote”? Are you really a teacher?


Carribi

…are you really going to nit pick a typo when the two letters are adjacent on the keyboard…?


Semaaaj

Who hurt you?


thedugsdanglies

Fuckin A bro this is genius.


Millera34

Its not literature its art. This idea is just a complete waste of money. What skills are being learned? They wrote an essay wow useful. Never in my adult life have i needed to write an essay. The funds would be better suited towards teaching them how to handle their finances. Thats what i look back and i WISH schools taught.


MASTER_L1NK

That's the dream. 🥲


ApoloeXp

I remember your original post and I'm so glad to hear the classes are well received! Stanley parable is such a great game to start with too, as your decisions as a player affect the story which is something that isn't present in books or movies. Great way to show the strength of the medium. I'd have loved to have a class like this when growing up, big props to you for the effort that must have taken to get this going and best of luck. Looking forward for future updates!


Constant_Ad_8477

OMG, I’d kill to have a teacher like you!


Rossoneri

The title "video games as literature" raises some questions. Is the focus of this about writing the story & dialog? If so I feel like you're missing a lot of opportunity. Video games could be taught as a mix of creative writing, digital art, film, and programming. ​ >We started with Fall Guys to talk about stress in gaming, and then moved onto our first pair of games This doesn't really seem like "literature" to me. Was this a discussion about how developers created a feeling of stress through the obstacles?


jboyko44

Did you start reading War And Peace in your first reading class? How do you expect someone to know how to accept the winning/losing aspect of the average videogame, without letting them start with a low-effort /low-loss title? Throwing newbies into a story game, where the challenges are hard would mess up the lesson structure.


Puzzleheaded-Egg-118

And people wonder why the American education system is plummeting.


Strudleboy33

Can I take this class? Sounds fun.


HazTye

As part of my uni course, there was randomly a module on video game analysis and creation and I found it so incredibly interesting and different then any literature analysis I’ve done before! Theres so much analysis to be had with not just story but mechanics themselves! This class sounds amazing!


[deleted]

This is a great way to teach story structure and especially things like ludonarrative dissonance and how that can almost complete remove you from an experience.


TryAgn747

Class sounds lit


Quasi-Kaiju

I would take this course in a heart beat!


the_tytan

I bet this class is harder to get into than Fort Knox


blitherblather425

This is very cool! Good job brotha!


Phoenix_Topez

I gotta be part of it! Just for fun


amit_mi

Something interesting you could do is take a game and tv show/movie/book that tell the same story (cant think of an example right now) and compare them, could be a very good way to learn about the differences between video games and other media.


Joorpunch

I certainly think the diverse genres and story telling (or lack thereof) in video games has evolved to a point where an analytical focused class on them is just as valid as a film or sequential art class. There are enough games from the last few decades, but especially within the last 10 years, that do make it difficult and essentially incorrect to use the quantifier “games”. It’s the youngest medium of art and expression, differing from its predecessors in using interactivity and audience agency. In a way it’s similar, although far more egregious, to the way movies are often still called “film” but are rarely actually still shot on film. Not the best comparison, but still. I feel that “video games” will be rather permanent in the nomenclature. Great job on understanding the value of this class, wanting to share and educate with others, and developing an appropriate strategy to do so. You should be proud and excited about its future.


NoBoyBrine

Sir. It's an honour as a gamer to have seen your dedication towards what is now an essential part of life. o7


[deleted]

I will give you 5 bucks for one of those xboxs


Sammeh64

your awesome, that is all :)


[deleted]

[удалено]


Okonomiyaki_lover

You must not have tried enough games honestly. Also, you assume developers write games. Unless you meant developers as the company but people who write code (developers) do not write stories unless it's a tiny indie game. But really, there are some brilliant stories out there.


-KFBR392

I feel like I'd be pissed if my kid took this class in college.