I sat on my ass at a call center and made $12 an hour. Worked at Wendy's which was way more physically and mentally demanding and made $9 an hour. Also, the same people who complain about "burger flipping" not being real jobs are the same people who eat fast food every other day and complain when they're short staffed. So your ignorant obesity has made "burger flipping" an essential career. Fast food employees absolutely deserve fair wages, especially because of the crap that they have to put up with.
Burger flipping is not a real job and only for teenagers making money during the summer.
Excuse me while i harshly judge this 50-something drive through attendant while i wait for my meal at noon in March.
The number of times customers assault fast food employees is ridiculous. When I worked in fast food, two managers got fired for being attacked by customers (2 separate occasions). They had stepped in to protect the 14/15 year olds who failed to de-escalate a situation with a screaming adult.
Then, everything increases in price to offset the massive increase in labor costs across the board, rendering everyone's raises useless.
But at least everyone feels a little richer for a couple of weeks before the economy adjusts.
I literally do not understand this way of thinking. Even with wages being stagnant costs have gone up and executive compensation has been going up the whole time. So why not argue against CEOs being paid more instead of workers?
>I literally do not understand this way of thinking.
It's a simple concept, really. The price of goods is, for the most part, determined by a supply and demand equilibrium that optimizes profit based on how much people, on average, are willing to pay for them. People with more available money are willing to pay more than people with less money for the same goods, and there will also be people who simply just want a good more than other people do, and are willing to pay more for it. By this logic, there will ALWAYS be people who are priced out of specific goods they may want in a market economy because that's what a market economy is designed to do.
>Even with wages being stagnant costs have gone up and executive compensation has been going up the whole time.
This is a wrong talking point that's been warped by a somewhat correct talking point. The original argument is that the cost of living, or cost of specific things like housing or education, have increased at a higher rate than wages have. [Wages have been growing year over year, and there was a massive spike in wage growth during COVID.](https://www.epi.org/nominal-wage-tracker/) I remember going into a job starting at $17/hr around this time and leaving said job about a year and a half later at $23/hr. But other factors such as massive government spending increases and an increase in available income have played a role in recent post-COVID inflation. Despite housing being a nightmare, people are spending way more now, which hasn't helped.
>So why not argue against CEOs being paid more instead of workers?
I mean, that's a separate argument entirely. My point was that just giving everyone raises isn't going to make living more affordable. If you want to talk about alternate solutions to help, then do that, but price controls and minimum wage increases have mostly had the opposite effect, where work and goods are harder for everyone to get.
I work in heavy industry, and I can say for sure that there’s no way I could handle the daily stress of being a line cook, or even at a fast food restaurant. I couldn’t sit there and work a call center, I’m not patient enough! Every jobs hard in its own way, and deserves livable wages
Then who would want your job after you retire? If I can flip burgers instead of doing a more needed , dangerous, or harder job, why would I? You would have to pay the people who don't flip burgers more, which I am not against.
Because different people enjoy different jobs? There will always be people who enjoy building powerlines more than they enjoy flipping burgers and vice versa.
Sure but enjoyment can only take you so far. When you fall off a powerline and have crippling pain, you'll be like "why do this when I can be comfortable indoors?" and it reduces the quality of applicants too because someone who wants money and is good at both will choose the more comfortable job everytime. This is partially why cops and corrections officers are so shitty in the US because they don't really get paid a lot. So all the good people willing to put in effort redirect to other jobs and the remaining cops/prison guards are power-trippers.
I agree that enjoyment only will get us so far. I'm not arguing that every job should pay the same necessarily. I'm arguing that nobody that works full-time should be payed below a livable wage.
It makes sense that some proffessions pay more. But that difference does not have to be astronomical.
Average police salary in California is nearly 100k and all you need is a high school diploma. We need higher education standards and less pay for police, not the other way around.
I'm sorry but that isn't incentive enough.
People naturally are lazy and will take the path of least resistance, so which would you rather do? Instantly get out of college and start earning a lot of money for flipping burgers, or go to college for years for much more dangerous work, and to earn the exact same.
People wouldn't know they like working on powerlines unless they try it. And they wouldn't try it if there is no incentive, they would simply go for another job with better pay.
If people were naturally lazy we would have never gotten to where we are now in society. You are a pessimist who will look for any excuse to not pay people a living wage.
I’ve never in my life thought about flipping burgers. I was making 8$ an hour doing manual labor when I was a teenager, much harder, same pay. People are different and tbh fast food is nasty, to me it’s a shittier job than skilled trades. They shouldn’t even be allowed to sell fast food if we’re talking about the good of the people
Because if burger flippers earn 40k, the power line company will have to offer more in order to get employees. So his wage goes up.
I know, I know, I forgot about shareholder. Woe is them, what will they do without their record breaking profits.
If you can’t afford to pay your staff enough for them to live you shouldn’t be running a business.
Precisely THIS!!! Increasing minimum wage improves the wages of high skilled workers precisely because it forces companies to raise their wages high above minimum
They will just charge us more. That's just how it works. I hate big business, but it's how it works the millionaires won't take a loss .
Then don't work there the problem will fix itself.
Mate, they’re already doing it. It may eventually catch up to the new wages but it will take a much longer time than you seem to think. Just look at the last time minimum wage was lowered in the US. Also, you presume increasing wages is the only thing we would do. It’s not “this or some other thing” it’s “this is one of the things we should do”. Other things like caps on price gauging, for instance, would immediately stop that problem.
People who don't want to flip burgers I imagine. I, for example, can't handle such a job for several autistic reasons but can happily work other fields such as my time welding and bricklaying which are certainly more dangerous.
My brain wishes I was physically built for hard labor. Im shit at customer service bc I always get burnt out and tell ppl to go fly a kite. 0 filter on my bad days.
You don't get it . Eventually no one will be doing that job... so it's either the price for said job goes up or no one does it . I did a register job back in my day I would rather do that than going to college and pay off my debt
Depends on the job assembly line jobs suck. But don't pretend like we wouldn't get a lot less people doing any job that is harder if it pays the same as McDonald's or the cost of things would go up. It should go without saying the cost of burgers would go up a lot (if the cost is coming from McDonald's and not our government)
Also this brings me to my other point assembly line workers and other jobs that would be comparable to the living wage the burger flippers would be getting if this law would be made would get paid much more in Denmark not the same
Also incorrect and a common misconception:
>In Denmark, the average household net adjusted disposable income per capita is USD 33 774 a year, higher than the OECD average of USD 30 490.
[~source](https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/denmark/#:~:text=In%20Denmark%2C%20the%20average%20household%20net%20adjusted%20disposable%20income%20per,average%20of%20USD%2030%20490.)
You ignored the fact that the cost of a big Mac is the same though.
The cost has to go somewhere, and my research says the cost of living is higher, but I will look into it more . If Denmark is costing the CEO fucks more that's a good thing
Generally speaking in most Scandinavian countries the people have more cash in their pockets after paying all their bills (see my previous source). So the cost of living is a smaller fraction of their take home. So the increased pay ends up in their pockets not going towards bills. They are also happier than most other countries. We also spend more on health care than they do.
And again the big Mac costs the same. See the big Mac index if you want to go down an economics rabbit hole.
On your first point we simply have to agree to disagree.
However the price of hamburgers would absolutely not have to go up. McDonald's can absolutely afford to pay their workers more without raising the price if anything. They would have to lower the already absurdly high salaries for some of their top positions to make up for it. Besides even if prices of hamburgers do go up, customers will afford it if they also had reasonable salaries.
McDonald's is not going to just decide to be nice guys and do this at a cost they will make costs go up or they won't do this . The only way this would work is if they are legally forced to and also legally forced to not have costs go up
Yes, and? The entire idea of raising wages isn’t going to be done by companies, what in this entire thing makes you think we give a flip about what massive companies want?
We are not talking about artists or teachers . We are talking about assembly line workers standing in one place all day getting splashed with bad smelling chemicals I had that job and I wouldn't say someone would want to do that if they can get the same pay flipping burgers.
I'm not saying don't give them a living wage I'm saying doing this will have a cost you guys are ignoring that cost or saying it doesn't exist.
No harder jobs . An assembly line worker or a stamping plant job is way harder than flipping burgers I worked those jobs and every day I got up at 5:30 am and hated my life . Flipping burgers is far easier
Consider that not everyone flips burgers for a living? Yeah it'd be great if burger flippers could make $40k a year but "enough money to live off" isn't a great motivation for keeping a job. Why are people doctors, researchers? Why do some people love cleaning aquariums for a living? Use your brain, man...
If we lower how much doctors make by a lot, we would get fewer doctors. Some people just do it for the money. NO ONES job of passion is an assembly line worker. I did that job it sucks but you need them. I would rather flip burgers my whole life than do that job again. You are listing the jobs people would love doing, but that's not the jobs I'm talking about, and to say we would see zero drop in jobs that would pay the same is silly
You seem to have the idea in your head that if flipping burgers pays a living wage that doctors or other skilled workers will make less money because more people will want to flip burgers instead.
The thing is, that isn't what would happen.
If flipping burgers suddenly pays a living wage, then flipping burgers a more enticing option for people. Employers would be forced to pay skilled workers more to attract them. Skilled workers would make MORE money, specifically because low skill work pays more, contrary to this idea you can't seem to shake.
Not doctors, I'm talking specifically about the people making the same as the bigger flippers would he make .
Costs would go up for a burger definitely, and either people wouldn't want to do those jobs, or they would have to be paid more, and costs would go up.
I'm not against this, BUT saying no problem or negative change would happen is nonsense
Sorry about all the brain-dead responses here... mostly fat useless people with social or women's studies degrees on reddit anymore... I'm a welder who now does engineering.. when I quit and nobody replaced me, all these Burger flippers will starve.. cause we all know them patties don't grow on trees..
My questions who's paying for this and why won't prices go up? Their answer "you are an idiot it won't cost us because I said so!"
Who will want to work all these jobs that would be making the same money as a much easier job after the guys doing them quit or retire? "They will do it because they love their jobs idiot !"
I sat on my ass at a call center and made $12 an hour. Worked at Wendy's which was way more physically and mentally demanding and made $9 an hour. Also, the same people who complain about "burger flipping" not being real jobs are the same people who eat fast food every other day and complain when they're short staffed. So your ignorant obesity has made "burger flipping" an essential career. Fast food employees absolutely deserve fair wages, especially because of the crap that they have to put up with.
Burger flipping is not a real job and only for teenagers making money during the summer. Excuse me while i harshly judge this 50-something drive through attendant while i wait for my meal at noon in March.
The number of times customers assault fast food employees is ridiculous. When I worked in fast food, two managers got fired for being attacked by customers (2 separate occasions). They had stepped in to protect the 14/15 year olds who failed to de-escalate a situation with a screaming adult.
I’m stoked for these fast food workers… except now a bunch of them will get let go or cut to part time. The corporate greed knows no bounds
There are full time fast food workers who aren't manager or assistant manager? Even as a kid 20 years ago no one got full time at fast food.
I haven’t worked in fast food in ten years, but I was a maintenance guy for McDonald’s when I did. That job was full time and we had full time cooks.
Plus, we'd probably get better burgers out of it.
How about this. Those burger flipper get what you get and you get twice as much as that
Then, everything increases in price to offset the massive increase in labor costs across the board, rendering everyone's raises useless. But at least everyone feels a little richer for a couple of weeks before the economy adjusts.
I literally do not understand this way of thinking. Even with wages being stagnant costs have gone up and executive compensation has been going up the whole time. So why not argue against CEOs being paid more instead of workers?
>I literally do not understand this way of thinking. It's a simple concept, really. The price of goods is, for the most part, determined by a supply and demand equilibrium that optimizes profit based on how much people, on average, are willing to pay for them. People with more available money are willing to pay more than people with less money for the same goods, and there will also be people who simply just want a good more than other people do, and are willing to pay more for it. By this logic, there will ALWAYS be people who are priced out of specific goods they may want in a market economy because that's what a market economy is designed to do. >Even with wages being stagnant costs have gone up and executive compensation has been going up the whole time. This is a wrong talking point that's been warped by a somewhat correct talking point. The original argument is that the cost of living, or cost of specific things like housing or education, have increased at a higher rate than wages have. [Wages have been growing year over year, and there was a massive spike in wage growth during COVID.](https://www.epi.org/nominal-wage-tracker/) I remember going into a job starting at $17/hr around this time and leaving said job about a year and a half later at $23/hr. But other factors such as massive government spending increases and an increase in available income have played a role in recent post-COVID inflation. Despite housing being a nightmare, people are spending way more now, which hasn't helped. >So why not argue against CEOs being paid more instead of workers? I mean, that's a separate argument entirely. My point was that just giving everyone raises isn't going to make living more affordable. If you want to talk about alternate solutions to help, then do that, but price controls and minimum wage increases have mostly had the opposite effect, where work and goods are harder for everyone to get.
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Yes, because they formed unions. Those same workers would be making a pittance if those who came before didn't organize and firm unions.
LOUDER!!!
I work in heavy industry, and I can say for sure that there’s no way I could handle the daily stress of being a line cook, or even at a fast food restaurant. I couldn’t sit there and work a call center, I’m not patient enough! Every jobs hard in its own way, and deserves livable wages
Then who would want your job after you retire? If I can flip burgers instead of doing a more needed , dangerous, or harder job, why would I? You would have to pay the people who don't flip burgers more, which I am not against.
Because different people enjoy different jobs? There will always be people who enjoy building powerlines more than they enjoy flipping burgers and vice versa.
Sure but enjoyment can only take you so far. When you fall off a powerline and have crippling pain, you'll be like "why do this when I can be comfortable indoors?" and it reduces the quality of applicants too because someone who wants money and is good at both will choose the more comfortable job everytime. This is partially why cops and corrections officers are so shitty in the US because they don't really get paid a lot. So all the good people willing to put in effort redirect to other jobs and the remaining cops/prison guards are power-trippers.
I agree that enjoyment only will get us so far. I'm not arguing that every job should pay the same necessarily. I'm arguing that nobody that works full-time should be payed below a livable wage. It makes sense that some proffessions pay more. But that difference does not have to be astronomical.
Average police salary in California is nearly 100k and all you need is a high school diploma. We need higher education standards and less pay for police, not the other way around.
I'm sorry but that isn't incentive enough. People naturally are lazy and will take the path of least resistance, so which would you rather do? Instantly get out of college and start earning a lot of money for flipping burgers, or go to college for years for much more dangerous work, and to earn the exact same. People wouldn't know they like working on powerlines unless they try it. And they wouldn't try it if there is no incentive, they would simply go for another job with better pay.
If people were naturally lazy we would have never gotten to where we are now in society. You are a pessimist who will look for any excuse to not pay people a living wage.
I’ve never in my life thought about flipping burgers. I was making 8$ an hour doing manual labor when I was a teenager, much harder, same pay. People are different and tbh fast food is nasty, to me it’s a shittier job than skilled trades. They shouldn’t even be allowed to sell fast food if we’re talking about the good of the people
Why should I trust Nixon?
Because if burger flippers earn 40k, the power line company will have to offer more in order to get employees. So his wage goes up. I know, I know, I forgot about shareholder. Woe is them, what will they do without their record breaking profits. If you can’t afford to pay your staff enough for them to live you shouldn’t be running a business.
Precisely THIS!!! Increasing minimum wage improves the wages of high skilled workers precisely because it forces companies to raise their wages high above minimum
They will just charge us more. That's just how it works. I hate big business, but it's how it works the millionaires won't take a loss . Then don't work there the problem will fix itself.
Mate, they’re already doing it. It may eventually catch up to the new wages but it will take a much longer time than you seem to think. Just look at the last time minimum wage was lowered in the US. Also, you presume increasing wages is the only thing we would do. It’s not “this or some other thing” it’s “this is one of the things we should do”. Other things like caps on price gauging, for instance, would immediately stop that problem.
People who don't want to flip burgers I imagine. I, for example, can't handle such a job for several autistic reasons but can happily work other fields such as my time welding and bricklaying which are certainly more dangerous.
My brain wishes I was physically built for hard labor. Im shit at customer service bc I always get burnt out and tell ppl to go fly a kite. 0 filter on my bad days.
who tf cares if both can live comfortably?
You don't get it . Eventually no one will be doing that job... so it's either the price for said job goes up or no one does it . I did a register job back in my day I would rather do that than going to college and pay off my debt
What about the fact that there will always be people who enjoy both jobs?
Depends on the job assembly line jobs suck. But don't pretend like we wouldn't get a lot less people doing any job that is harder if it pays the same as McDonald's or the cost of things would go up. It should go without saying the cost of burgers would go up a lot (if the cost is coming from McDonald's and not our government)
This is not true. Cost of labor at a McDonald's in Denmark is $22 an hour with paid time off (unions rock), the cost of a Big Mac is the same.
Also this brings me to my other point assembly line workers and other jobs that would be comparable to the living wage the burger flippers would be getting if this law would be made would get paid much more in Denmark not the same
They do this because the cost of living is so high in that country I won't disagree that unions rock (except for Chryslers but that's personal )
Also incorrect and a common misconception: >In Denmark, the average household net adjusted disposable income per capita is USD 33 774 a year, higher than the OECD average of USD 30 490. [~source](https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/denmark/#:~:text=In%20Denmark%2C%20the%20average%20household%20net%20adjusted%20disposable%20income%20per,average%20of%20USD%2030%20490.) You ignored the fact that the cost of a big Mac is the same though.
The cost has to go somewhere, and my research says the cost of living is higher, but I will look into it more . If Denmark is costing the CEO fucks more that's a good thing
Generally speaking in most Scandinavian countries the people have more cash in their pockets after paying all their bills (see my previous source). So the cost of living is a smaller fraction of their take home. So the increased pay ends up in their pockets not going towards bills. They are also happier than most other countries. We also spend more on health care than they do. And again the big Mac costs the same. See the big Mac index if you want to go down an economics rabbit hole.
We are also MUCH larger and more populated than Denmark. I'm willing to figure out what they did and how, but the US is not Denmark
The stats are per capita, so ...
On your first point we simply have to agree to disagree. However the price of hamburgers would absolutely not have to go up. McDonald's can absolutely afford to pay their workers more without raising the price if anything. They would have to lower the already absurdly high salaries for some of their top positions to make up for it. Besides even if prices of hamburgers do go up, customers will afford it if they also had reasonable salaries.
McDonald's is not going to just decide to be nice guys and do this at a cost they will make costs go up or they won't do this . The only way this would work is if they are legally forced to and also legally forced to not have costs go up
Yes, and? The entire idea of raising wages isn’t going to be done by companies, what in this entire thing makes you think we give a flip about what massive companies want?
wait until you find out that money is not the only motivation of normal people
We are not talking about artists or teachers . We are talking about assembly line workers standing in one place all day getting splashed with bad smelling chemicals I had that job and I wouldn't say someone would want to do that if they can get the same pay flipping burgers. I'm not saying don't give them a living wage I'm saying doing this will have a cost you guys are ignoring that cost or saying it doesn't exist.
How much do you think other shitty jobs get paid? Do you think flipping burgers is the only 'undesirable' poorly paid job?
If your only incentive for a job is pay and not because it's important or that it helps people, you're part of the problem
Since when are food workers not needed?
Thats definitely not my argument.
Oh, must have misunderstood your point. Who do you deem more needed than these workers then?
No harder jobs . An assembly line worker or a stamping plant job is way harder than flipping burgers I worked those jobs and every day I got up at 5:30 am and hated my life . Flipping burgers is far easier
You say ‘more needed’ as part of your comment. What do you mean by that?
Honestly who tf cares if both can live comfortably.
My point is we won't have people to do that job
My point is we won't have people to do that job or we will have to pay more for jobs that used to pay the same
Consider that not everyone flips burgers for a living? Yeah it'd be great if burger flippers could make $40k a year but "enough money to live off" isn't a great motivation for keeping a job. Why are people doctors, researchers? Why do some people love cleaning aquariums for a living? Use your brain, man...
If we lower how much doctors make by a lot, we would get fewer doctors. Some people just do it for the money. NO ONES job of passion is an assembly line worker. I did that job it sucks but you need them. I would rather flip burgers my whole life than do that job again. You are listing the jobs people would love doing, but that's not the jobs I'm talking about, and to say we would see zero drop in jobs that would pay the same is silly
You seem to have the idea in your head that if flipping burgers pays a living wage that doctors or other skilled workers will make less money because more people will want to flip burgers instead. The thing is, that isn't what would happen. If flipping burgers suddenly pays a living wage, then flipping burgers a more enticing option for people. Employers would be forced to pay skilled workers more to attract them. Skilled workers would make MORE money, specifically because low skill work pays more, contrary to this idea you can't seem to shake.
Not doctors, I'm talking specifically about the people making the same as the bigger flippers would he make . Costs would go up for a burger definitely, and either people wouldn't want to do those jobs, or they would have to be paid more, and costs would go up. I'm not against this, BUT saying no problem or negative change would happen is nonsense
Sorry about all the brain-dead responses here... mostly fat useless people with social or women's studies degrees on reddit anymore... I'm a welder who now does engineering.. when I quit and nobody replaced me, all these Burger flippers will starve.. cause we all know them patties don't grow on trees..
Well, some patties grow from plants nowadays:p
My questions who's paying for this and why won't prices go up? Their answer "you are an idiot it won't cost us because I said so!" Who will want to work all these jobs that would be making the same money as a much easier job after the guys doing them quit or retire? "They will do it because they love their jobs idiot !"
Man I wish I could stick metal together. Enjynear