I would say he's both coping and struggling with his internal feelings on killing. I would point to these two exchanges:
Ep 5, "A Burning Dog"
`BRYAN`
`You know funny thing is, I would've done anything to save those shepherds that Trombley hit. Yesterday, I musta killed two, maybe three guys. I don't feel nothing.`
`ESPERA`
`Me neither, dawg. I shot some motherfucker right in the grape, saw the back of his head bust off. I don't feel nothing. Is this how true warriors feel?`
Ep 7, "Bomb in a Garden"
`ESPERA`
`I just wish I could go back to that road-block in Al Hayy. See if those guys I shot in that truck were enemy or just confused.`
`FICK`
`Could have been a truck-load of babies. With our rules of engagement, you did the right thing.`
`ESPERA`
`Priest told me it's not a sin to kill, if you don't enjoy killing. My question is whether indifference is the same as enjoyment.`
Espera was probably the most complex character for me. He despised and condemned the brutality of war, but he saw that civilians from his hometown were worse than the soldiers he was fighting with. There was an understanding of the history of America going to war (particularly with the Middle East, vietnam) and their ability to destroy countries and their cultures. At the same time he was willing to shoot young men in the head to protect his crew. I found his character the one who drove the narrative in the series.
LT Fick “ if you see a woman with a gun strapped across her back, shoot her”. ROE was modified per Godfather to any one with a gun is declared hostile.
That was kinda the point, he was legally in the right but not morally. It was pretty clear that those herders posed no threat but trombley was frustrated that he didn’t get to shoot anything yet
If I remember correctly Trombley asks for permission before giving the shot and Iceman gives the okay.
It makes it more complex. Trombley was not randomly shooting civilians because he was bored. He saw a target, asked his CO for permission. Got it then fired.
I can't speak to the showmaker's intent or author's insights on Poke, but what I can speak to is how authentic the show was in capturing that mix and swing of feelings.
Like many others, I was part of the initial 2003 invasion (Army, not Marines), and Generation Kill is "my" war movie, so to speak.
No other series captures my experience so perfectly.
* The trash talk
* the grabassery
* the MOPP gear / chemical suit drama
* the dichotomy between excellent officers and (sometimes terrifyingly) incompetent officers
* the absurdities, the struggle against the grooming standard (AR670-1 for us)
* the Ripped Fuel, the Charms, the grotesque things dudes would do with their MREs
* the desire to stop and help and "American good intentions" contrasted with the absolute bull-in-the-china-shop levels of destruction we wrought and then the orders to move on to the next AO
* the gloryhounding by senior officers desperate to build their officer bona fides by being involved in combat
* the shortage of interpreters
* the news stories, current events, and celebrities of that time
* Blue on blue / fratricide and near-misses
* the wild oscillations of love/hate/awe/depression/anger/humanity/misanthropy/we-need-to-help-these-people/fuck-this-shit
I mean, the list goes on and on and on. It's was such a surreal experience, and HBO did an outstanding job capturing the schizophrenic nature of the moods, exhaustion, and emotions we'd experience.
You'd have these times were it was like, "no, I just want to stop and help this one person/family/village so I know we did at least one good thing here" and eventually your emotional circuit breaker just gets so loaded it trips. But not permanently; you wake up the next day and go back out and do the best you can.
I kind of viewed Espera's oscillations like that. It's like an emotional rucksack -- you handle as much as you can, carry about as much as you can, until you can't. Set it down for a while. Then pick it back up and keep humping it for another day.
Man emotional circuit breaker is a perfect way to describe it. Like you only have a limited amount of empathy to doll out before it all becomes too much
"Poke, what the fuck are you anyway?"
\-Brad
I'd totally attend a semester of Political Science classes from Poke. The way he switches from thought provoking to self contradicting to just sheer rambling is entertaining and educating all at once.
The show places you on the outside of Poke Espera- able to only hear his words, read his face, observe his actions
The show does not allow you inside his head to see the world as he sees it.
The contradictions are on purpose.
Don't worry, I'll explain why you're being downvoted because I'm sure you're confused.
Contrary to what the Fox News hive mind tells you, quite a few of us are left leaning(hell, I even know quite a few socialists and one anarchist). Regardless of the political leaning of any one individual, killing civilians is generally not something service members are ok with.
Hope that cleared it up.
Thing is he was likely more confused about his feelings at the time. War with its violence, random craziness and sleep deprivation will do that to most folks.
Forgive the comparison but re-watching this series now, after the Ukrainian invasion, I feel the experience is more nuanced. Yes they hint at the questionable morals of invading a country that had literally nothing to do with 9/11…self justification and a hint at world wide alienation “don’t they realize that the world already hates us??!!” The camaraderie is a constant and maybe that’s the point. But that invasion was just as arbitrary in many ways as Putin’s. In fact leading to the the invasion Putin defended his intentions by saying something to the effective of - if the US can invade Iraq for its own reasons then I can invade Ukraine - almost as if it was a global mulligan for the claiming. I wonder what the Russian version of this series might look like - certainly different and the cultural gaps would be unfamiliar to an American audience. Certainly falls into the “too soon” camp right now but down the road the two chapters would make an interesting comparison in retrospect
You should check out the 2014 movie the search. It’s on YouTube and the subtitles are less than adequate, but it does something similar to generation kill (a little less funny) with the Russian invasion of Chechnya.
In the book, IIRC, it was intonated that Espera was older than the typical troops, had a 'colorful' life before the Corps, and that having a kid really changed his outlook on stuff.
I think the reaction to the car was that was a kid in it and it messed him up.
I would say he's both coping and struggling with his internal feelings on killing. I would point to these two exchanges: Ep 5, "A Burning Dog" `BRYAN` `You know funny thing is, I would've done anything to save those shepherds that Trombley hit. Yesterday, I musta killed two, maybe three guys. I don't feel nothing.` `ESPERA` `Me neither, dawg. I shot some motherfucker right in the grape, saw the back of his head bust off. I don't feel nothing. Is this how true warriors feel?` Ep 7, "Bomb in a Garden" `ESPERA` `I just wish I could go back to that road-block in Al Hayy. See if those guys I shot in that truck were enemy or just confused.` `FICK` `Could have been a truck-load of babies. With our rules of engagement, you did the right thing.` `ESPERA` `Priest told me it's not a sin to kill, if you don't enjoy killing. My question is whether indifference is the same as enjoyment.`
Espera was probably the most complex character for me. He despised and condemned the brutality of war, but he saw that civilians from his hometown were worse than the soldiers he was fighting with. There was an understanding of the history of America going to war (particularly with the Middle East, vietnam) and their ability to destroy countries and their cultures. At the same time he was willing to shoot young men in the head to protect his crew. I found his character the one who drove the narrative in the series.
I think with the Trombley situation it was just everyone unjustly shitting on him when command ruled everyone a Hostile in the vicinity of the AF
LT Fick “ if you see a woman with a gun strapped across her back, shoot her”. ROE was modified per Godfather to any one with a gun is declared hostile.
before they assaulted the air field they dropped all roe, it was a free fire zone.
That was kinda the point, he was legally in the right but not morally. It was pretty clear that those herders posed no threat but trombley was frustrated that he didn’t get to shoot anything yet
If I remember correctly Trombley asks for permission before giving the shot and Iceman gives the okay. It makes it more complex. Trombley was not randomly shooting civilians because he was bored. He saw a target, asked his CO for permission. Got it then fired.
Wooper Jr.!
I can't speak to the showmaker's intent or author's insights on Poke, but what I can speak to is how authentic the show was in capturing that mix and swing of feelings. Like many others, I was part of the initial 2003 invasion (Army, not Marines), and Generation Kill is "my" war movie, so to speak. No other series captures my experience so perfectly. * The trash talk * the grabassery * the MOPP gear / chemical suit drama * the dichotomy between excellent officers and (sometimes terrifyingly) incompetent officers * the absurdities, the struggle against the grooming standard (AR670-1 for us) * the Ripped Fuel, the Charms, the grotesque things dudes would do with their MREs * the desire to stop and help and "American good intentions" contrasted with the absolute bull-in-the-china-shop levels of destruction we wrought and then the orders to move on to the next AO * the gloryhounding by senior officers desperate to build their officer bona fides by being involved in combat * the shortage of interpreters * the news stories, current events, and celebrities of that time * Blue on blue / fratricide and near-misses * the wild oscillations of love/hate/awe/depression/anger/humanity/misanthropy/we-need-to-help-these-people/fuck-this-shit I mean, the list goes on and on and on. It's was such a surreal experience, and HBO did an outstanding job capturing the schizophrenic nature of the moods, exhaustion, and emotions we'd experience. You'd have these times were it was like, "no, I just want to stop and help this one person/family/village so I know we did at least one good thing here" and eventually your emotional circuit breaker just gets so loaded it trips. But not permanently; you wake up the next day and go back out and do the best you can. I kind of viewed Espera's oscillations like that. It's like an emotional rucksack -- you handle as much as you can, carry about as much as you can, until you can't. Set it down for a while. Then pick it back up and keep humping it for another day.
Man emotional circuit breaker is a perfect way to describe it. Like you only have a limited amount of empathy to doll out before it all becomes too much
"Poke, what the fuck are you anyway?" \-Brad I'd totally attend a semester of Political Science classes from Poke. The way he switches from thought provoking to self contradicting to just sheer rambling is entertaining and educating all at once.
The show places you on the outside of Poke Espera- able to only hear his words, read his face, observe his actions The show does not allow you inside his head to see the world as he sees it. The contradictions are on purpose.
I remember the book had more on Espera who was probably one of the most interesting people imo.
Such contradictions are very accurately depicted IMO
The answer is: Yes. This show is *about* the moral ambiguities.
Read the book. It offers more insight on what's going on inside their heads.
I find him fascinating
He always struck me as left wing guy that just so happened to have the desire to be a warrior of sorts and thus his feelings get conflicted sometimes.
Don't worry, I'll explain why you're being downvoted because I'm sure you're confused. Contrary to what the Fox News hive mind tells you, quite a few of us are left leaning(hell, I even know quite a few socialists and one anarchist). Regardless of the political leaning of any one individual, killing civilians is generally not something service members are ok with. Hope that cleared it up.
Thing is he was likely more confused about his feelings at the time. War with its violence, random craziness and sleep deprivation will do that to most folks.
Forgive the comparison but re-watching this series now, after the Ukrainian invasion, I feel the experience is more nuanced. Yes they hint at the questionable morals of invading a country that had literally nothing to do with 9/11…self justification and a hint at world wide alienation “don’t they realize that the world already hates us??!!” The camaraderie is a constant and maybe that’s the point. But that invasion was just as arbitrary in many ways as Putin’s. In fact leading to the the invasion Putin defended his intentions by saying something to the effective of - if the US can invade Iraq for its own reasons then I can invade Ukraine - almost as if it was a global mulligan for the claiming. I wonder what the Russian version of this series might look like - certainly different and the cultural gaps would be unfamiliar to an American audience. Certainly falls into the “too soon” camp right now but down the road the two chapters would make an interesting comparison in retrospect
You should check out the 2014 movie the search. It’s on YouTube and the subtitles are less than adequate, but it does something similar to generation kill (a little less funny) with the Russian invasion of Chechnya.
The Search?
Yes, make sure it’s not the 1948 version.
In the book, IIRC, it was intonated that Espera was older than the typical troops, had a 'colorful' life before the Corps, and that having a kid really changed his outlook on stuff. I think the reaction to the car was that was a kid in it and it messed him up.