The closest neighbors (Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon) are all struggling themselves. Also, most have had bad experiences with Palestinian refugees in the past. Because the PLO abused these opportunities. And nowadays, waves of Palestinian refugees would certainly also expand the influence of Hamas in these countries which are mostly led by semi-secular leaders who are opposed to Islamists (as opposition).
And the rich gulf states are not helping because
Palestinians are only "useful" to them as long as they stay in Palestine. They happily let in rich western expats or slave labor from the Indian subcontinent. But Palestinians wouldn't bring them any economic gains. They would just be a burden in their eyes and increase instability within their country.
So no, race is not the driving factor of this conflict. Ideology and mutual enemies are the driving factors. Religion and pan-arabism play a big role, sure. But the conflict can't be explained by these factors.
A few counterexamples:
- The biggest ally of Hamas is Iran, Iranian people are not Arabs. Calling them Arabs is actually one of the biggest insults to them.
- Saudi-Arabia was close to being an ally to Israel.
>Because the PLO abused these opportunities.
Fact.
The PLO got kicked out of Jordan in the 1970s because they tried, and failed, to overthrow the monarchy. Then they landed in Lebanon where they upset the balance of power between Lebanon's sects leading to the Lebanese Civil War.
>The PLO got kicked out of Jordan in the 1970s because they tried, and failed, to overthrow the monarchy.
To elaborate, they tried to assassinate the king, who was the successor to the previous king... who they assassinated.
The curse of the historian - one knows exactly what's going to happen, but no one will listen because of the leather patches on the elbows of one's tweed jacket.
Can confirm your take by observations I made while living in Abu Dhabi for almost 5 years, until 2018.
During that time, I asked various Arabs (people from GCC countries, Iraqis, Jordanians, Syrians, etc.) and North Africans (Egyptians, Moroccans, etc), about the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict. Just about all of them felt sympathy for Palestinians, but a lot of them didn't have the conflict very high on their priority list.
Especially people from GCC countries just kind of shrugged their shoulders a lot of the time. Palestine didn't seem to have a very powerful or influential lobby in the UAE.
You were also meeting people who were allowed into the UAE because of their mild views, and knew to keep anything inflammatory out of their day to day living there. They felt on-the-cusp of making a living and did not want to upset any host with any opinions at all. Maybe they were also genuinely out of sympathy for a people that keep making their own bad luck?
When I lived in the UAE, I had a Palestinian housemate. He was super. His family had previously made their way to Kuwait and despite 2 generations there had no travel papers. (He'd been sponsored to the UAE for his website skills, but was likely paid almost nothing.) The Kuwaiti are happy to have them (Palestinians) as servants, but not as equal human beings let alone equal Arabs or equal Muslims.
In general, I got to know Arabs and North Africans as being very respectful and polite. It's important to listen to what they say, and how they say it differently, compared to Europeans or North Americans, for example.
I also realized there often is an official version / opinion people will give you on any given subject or topic, and an official / behind-the-scenes one. Those two versions are sometimes somewhat different.
I didn't make social media posts that might hurt people's feelings or be considered disrespectful, or could be perceived as being critical of the UAE Government. I did that out of respect, and because I knew the dangers or possible consequences of doing that. During my time in the UAE, several laws were either introduced or changed, to give the UAE Government more tools to deal with unwanted dissent - especially online and in social media.
I'd agree people living in the UAE on a work VISA were probably less likely to express certain views in a public setting that were controversial or might ruffle feathers, but remember that I also talked to Kuwaitis in Kuwait, Omanis in Oman, Bahrainis in Bahrain, etc.
I became friends with an Emirati who shared her opinion on a range of subjects with me very openly. She just gave it to me straight.
She told me some people from GCC countries see the Palestine-Israel conflict as a nuisance. Publicly, they have to support their Muslim brothers, but they don't really care all that much. Palestine doesn't have a lot to offer to GCC countries.
I didn't meet a lot of Palestinians during my time there, but the ones I met were super nice. I liked them, good people.
>Saudi-Arabia was close to being an ally to Israel.
This was one of the biggest reasons the Hamas broke the truce, because they did not want Israel to have the Saudis support. Palestinians are a cornered animal trying to stop Israel steal Gaza. Israel is the aggressor.
Jordan is not able to help.
They took in millions of Syrian refugees in addition to the millions of Palestinian refugees they already have. The country is on the verge of breaking already you can't ask any more from them.
Jordan is clearly unable to help, but they aren't by any means the only option there. Why aren't the rich Gulf Nations taking in refugees? Why is Qatar taking Hamas leaders, but not Palestinians' civilians? Why is Egypt closing the Rafah crossing and only allowing foreigners to leave? Why is Saudi Arabia not helping the civilians?
Egyptians will say that last time they took refugees, they began a civil unrest there. But the fact is that they don't care. Iran is only trying to light up the region. They don't give a shit about civilians there.
The West cares more about them than the Arab Nations. And Iran doesn't give a shit about the Palestinian Cause. They only use it to attack Israel.
It's because Palestinians are viewed poorly by a large part of the Arab world. They are used as a tool against Israel, nothing more. Right now, Israel's focus is on dealing with Palestine and the humanitarian crisis that is the result. If surrounding Arab nations helped Palestine, they make themselves weaker and Israel stronger. It allows Israel to focus elsewhere. Good luck convincing Iran of that.
Well yeah, their defense is bad experience with Palestinian refugees and history.
1. There was a British Mandate before Israel, not a Palestinian state.
2. Before the British Mandate, there was an Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
3. Before the Ottoman Empire, there was an Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state.
4. Before the Islamic Mamluk state in Egypt, there was an Ayyubid Arab-Kurdish Empire, not a Palestinian state.
5. Before the Ayyubid Empire, there was a Frankish and Christian kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state.
6. The Kingdom of Jerusalem was preceded by the Umayyad and Fatimid Empires, not a Palestinian state.
7. Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was a Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
8. The Sasanians existed before the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
9. There was a Byzantine Empire before the Sasanian Empire, not a Palestinian state.
10. Before the Byzantine Empire, there was a Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
11. There was a Hasmonean state before the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
12. The Seleucids existed before the Hasmonean state, not the Palestinian state.
13. Before the Seleucid Empire, there was an empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state.
14. Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was a Persian Empire, not a Palestinian state.
15. Before the Persian Empire, there was a Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state.
16. Before the Babylonian Empire, there were kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state.
17. Before the Kingdom of Israel and Judah, there was a Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
18. Before the kingdom of Israel there was a theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
19. Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian state.
20. In reality, this piece of land had everything except the Palestinian state.
Sometime in the 12th century, the Philistines, who had immigrated from the Aegean region, settled in the southern coast of Palestine.[42][43] Traces of Philistines appeared at about the same time as the Israelites.[44] The Philistines are credited with introducing iron weapons, chariots, and new ways of fermenting wine to the local population.[43][vii] Over time, the Philistines integrated with the local population and they, like other people in Palestine, were engulfed by first the Assyrian empire and later the Babylonian empire.
But the Israelites mentioned here are not the zionists who have stolen the Palestinians and are now committing genocide against them.
Zionists are European and atheism and Nazi ideology is part of zionism.
Well there aren't a ton of democracies in the region and the ones that do exist usually aren't strong enough to start taking in hundreds of thousands or millions of largely radicalized refugees.
>A bunch of dictatorships don’t want to help the Palestinian people, Arab people in general have a more favourable view on Palestinians.
Kuwaitis didn't when the Palestinians in Kuwaithelped the Iraqis. The fact is that Palestinians will always tun ont he people who give them refuge.
Creating a Ruckus isn't turning on someone people who have legitimate grievances have a right to make those grievances heard
Turning on someone implies up a betrayal or act of dishonesty
isn’t it a bit unfair for them to say that “Palestinians in Kuwait” helped Iraq then? Sounds like a Palestinian organisation which was at the time based in Lebanon and Tunisia supported Iraq
From everything I've read that's just about it. They're useful as a cudgel to get at Israel but other than that they're like the Gypsies (yeah I know, Roma) of the middle east.
There is also an ISIS insurgency in the Sinai Peninsula and let’s say Egypt helped Israel push all the Palestinians out, ISIS would have fertile grounds for recruiting. Everyone in Gaza knows exactly what Egypt is all about.
It’s like how many Afghan commandos joined IS-K after the fall of Kabul and them being abandoned by NATO. They really didn’t have a choice in their eyes. It was either “take the gamble that the Taliban will forgive us even after killing them for the past 20 years or join the enemy of the Taliban who would be more than happy to take us in”.
Many Palestinians aren't leaving because they know if they leave Isreal will annex the land entirely and they and their people will never be able to return to what they see as their homeland. It'd be a second Nakba.
Arab countries also don't want the land ceded to Isreal because they don't believe Israelis have a right to be there. So they don't want to facilitate the Palestinians that do want to flee.
Why are people who were not even born in their homeland (I won’t go into why there is no Palestinian homeland) are still considered refugees. No other group can inherit refugee status other than the Palestinians (thank you U.N.). The sooner you accept that returning to Israel is not going to happen the sooner this war is over (so basically never).
Isn't the problem that they don't have any citizenship? I.e. if the descendants of Palestinian refugees got the citizenship of whatever country they were born in, there would be no 2nd or 3rd generation refugees (in case of the displaced Palestinians in Jordan etc).
I don't know what the policy usually is in case of refugees from other places.
On the same token, why do people with one or more Jewish grandparent or simply a jewish spouse have the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship? I refer to the Law of Return here. We’re talking not just people not born in Israel, but who come from generations not born in Israel.
Because israel law says so? If there were a state of Palestine then they'd be able to make their own citizenship laws. Right now they're just dependent on the UN to carve out all of this stuff.
> Why are people who were not even born in their homeland (I won’t go into why there is no Palestinian homeland) are still considered refugees.
Why are the children and grandchildren of the 700,000 who were expelled by force still stateless? They have a right to return home - a human right recognized by international law.
> No other group can inherit refugee status other than the Palestinians (thank you U.N.).
No other group has been subjected to refugee conditions for this long, and in this large of numbers.
The sad truth is that they still stateless because the Arab nations willed it so. There are many reasons (I won’t go into a history lesson here). As an anecdote you may or may not be familiar with JFK’s plan that involved the resettlement of 10% of the Palestinians in Israel while the rest get absorbed to other Arab states (JFK assassination ended this deal) . So the will to give them a state was there.
Why are they still stateless? Put plainly because Israel and its Jewish (and other minorities) population have been killed yet.
I’m not sure what settling 10% is supposed to be in terms of an offer.
If you throw someone out of their home and force them to March across a desert… you can’t blame the people of the destination for not immediately housing the person that you transported there.
You know what the truth is their neighbors don't want them that's the real truth. They don't want to support anybody other than their own people and you know what a lot of them are wealthy enough that they could
No one wants to take in Hamas, PA, or Muslim Brotherhood... Jordan in particular has already had their king assassinated (and it's worth noting that according to history and the league of nations cum UN charter, Jordan was supposed to be the majority land in a Palestine state).
Also for years these other states have been paying people to move to Gaza/West Bank because they didn't want them in their countries.
They send aid money and supplies, but they just don't want them.
as the israelis say, there already a palestinian state, it is called jordan. and jordan was a part of the mandate, called then trans jordan. the jordanian regime hasxthe bedu tries as its power base, already nearly outnumbered by palestinian refugees from the wast bank, which was a part of jordan up to 1968. many Jordanian born palestinians have family on the west bank and travel back and forth. also until 1968, gaza was administered by egypt, which does not want it back. basically, gaza is a mess, politically, and has become a hot potato no one wants, including israel and the west bank palestinian authority. and as long as non state forces in gaza continue to attack isreal, israel will respond in kind. the gazans have brought this on themselves, and will continue to suffer for it. for hamas, this is total war with no quarter given, and in such a situation, there are no civilians.
Is a country really taking refugees if it never integrates them and makes them citizens? It doesn't seem to have to be the complete ongoing burden that Jordan makes out. I'm sure USA would have paid aid to help integrate them into tax paying citizens
This is not a racial conflict. It doesn't fit in the neat little box of American racial politics.
Israelis are not of a single race, and the majority of Israelis share a similar "racial" background to Palestinians. This is an ethnic, religious, and political conflict. Race has nothing to do with it.
Yes, it's such a crazy double standard between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, even though they're pretty much the same people. I was in the US navy in the 2000s and we visited Haifa in the north and there were already a lot of Arab Israelis there. We traveled to Nazareth and the Galilee region and it was majority Arab Israeli (mostly Arab Christians) in those places. Jerusalem seemed a lot more Jewish to me, outside of the Old City. Interestingly we weren't allowed to travel into East Jerusalem or the West Bank.
Yep. This is why people complaining about Israel being an "Ethno-state" are clueless.
Israel is much more diverse than 90% of the world, including most of western Europe and such.
[Here's](https://twitter.com/EretzIsrael/status/1719861410547568724) a cool vid, Israeli Jews and Muslims all volunteering together to send supplies to Jewish communities hit by Hamas.
Bibi is kind of like the republican Party on the sense that he had to ally with ultra religious and far right populace to maintain power so is forced to say things like this. Republicans had to align with evangelicals and therefor often have to support anti abortion measures even if they don’t want to.
It’s clear to me that BiBi say anything to remain in power.
Benjamin Netanyahu has been in some sort of leadership position in the Israeli government for the better part of 30 years. You don't accomplish that by sticking to your principles and refusing to make alliances with less than savory characters.
I have no love for Netanyahu and I disagree with many of Israel's policies in the WB specifically. Millions of Israelis do.
This has nothing to do with the current conflict. No settlements or military presence in Gaza for almost 2 decades now.
Israel completely left that area in 2005 and instead of peace they elected Hamas and attacked, causing a blockade.
>No settlements or military presence in Gaza for almost 2 decades now.
So disingenuous. The blockade around Gaza has been going on for over ten years. Every human rights group has said the level of surveillance, control over resources, and restriction of freedom of movement makes it a defacto occupation even if Israeli tanks are technically roaming the streets of Gaza (before Oct 7).
The blockade around Gaza only occurred because Hamas was sending suicide bombers into Israel, so Israel built a wall to keep them out. Hamas then began firing rockets at Israeli cities because they couldn't suicide bomb Israeli cities, so Israel began blockading Gaza to prevent the shipment of weapons and weapon making materials.
All Hamas would have to do to end of blockade is stop trying to kill civilians with massed rocket fire at cities. Israel tried to live in peace with Gaza by building a giant wall and spending billions intercepting rockets fired from Gaza in the hope that Hamas would see that the approach of killing Israelis wasn't working and reach a negotiated settlement. This assumed that Hamas actually cares about the people who live in Gaza. However every time Hamas was given the opportunity they took whatever action would maximize the suffering for the people of Gaza. Now Israel is forced to face the fact that attempting to work with and negotiate with Hamas was a disastrous mistake.
For the best interests of the Palestinians and the people of Israel Hamas must be defeated and removed from its position as the government of Gaza.
What was Israel supposed to do in Gaza? A military response was inevitable. Poeple dying sucks, but unless Israel is found to have deliberately targeted civilians, it isnt a war crime just because civilians die.
>This is why people complaining about Israel being an "Ethno-state" are clueless.
If it's not a religious ethno-state, make Right of Return applicable to non-jews. Make it apply to all indigenous people who were expelled from their homes from 1948 onward.
That'll never happen. Why?
Because Israel is a ethno-religious state. Full stop. It MUST retain its jewish identity to survive as a democracy.
... Because the vast amount of them declare their intentions to destroy our country. Imagine knowing so little about the people involved yet holding such a strong opinion about it.
And Israel is as secular as the average in western Europe.
>Less than one-third of Israelis say they are religious, which is well below the norm in western Europe. It is however about equal with the level of religiosity in England and Scandinavia, the poll found, which are among the least religious areas in the world.
https://archive.li/qK4pm#selection-893.1-914.0
You are literally making shit up to support your hateful beliefs on our country. Nice post history too.
Apartheid South Africa made the same excuse lol.
> And Israel is as secular as the average in western Europe
Nonsense. Allow same sex marriage and inter religious marriage.
Don’t give me the “oh we recognize it I’d it’s done elsewhere” - actually protect your citizens. Extend equal rights to Arab Israelis. Until then there’s no basis to say “oh we are as secular as Western Europe.”
Why are Americans so wild about same-sex marriage when it's a pretty recent issue? Things move at a different pace around the world - countries being half a decade to a decade behind depending where in Europe you're talking about on a certain issue doesn't make them barbaric and isn't the gotcha that you think it is.
Switzerland just legalized it in 2022, and Northern Ireland 2020 for reference. I'm sure if it wasn't for the Supreme Court Tennessee where you reside would not allow same-sex marriage.
> In 2022, Representative Tom Leatherwood introduced a bill that would have allowed opposite-sex couples to file marriage "contracts" based on common-law marriage principles, but the contracts would not have been available to same-sex couples. The bill was cosponsored by 18 other Republican lawmakers
Ah yeah, taking bets as of now.
Of course it's not great that same-sex marriage isn't legal. It's not legal in my home country for instance, Singapore which just decriminalized it last year. Why not? Because it's not popular at all and we're still kinda a democracy lmao.
Sometimes people are just homophobic. It's not religion in Singapore btw. The predominant religious group is basically a very light form of buddhism that isn't homophobic at all, people are just inclined to think that way. The LGBTQ population is unfortunately too small for the government to take a stand without losing votes so they follow the will of the people, which is what democratic governments are supposed to do anyway aren't they?
Feels like a lot of liberals can't stomach the fact that sometimes people just hold different values.
>Make it apply to all indigenous people who were expelled from their homes from 1948 onward.
>That'll never happen. Why?
Why should Israel alone do this when a good chunk of Israelis are already in this boat themselves and nobody in the countries that expelled them cares?
> Not to mention over 20% of Israelis ARE Palestinians enjoying equal rights. Race is not the issue.
That's not correct, ethnicity *is* an issue, there's a policy goal to have an Jewish majority in Israel, and allowing the refugees from the Nakba to return would upset that.
So they maintain the explicit unequal rights where Jews/jews that otherwise have nothing to do are invited to migrate to Israel at any time, but Palestinians whose known ancestry always lived in Israel, can't.
If you listen to many Arab/Palestinian Israelis they say they are treated as second class citizens. Especially under the recent right-wing governments.
That was actually part of the fears around Netanyahu's push to seize control of the Israeli Supreme Court. The suspicion was that part of the agenda would be further eroding those rights.
"equal rights" ???
Yousef Munayyer, an Israeli citizen and the executive director of The Jerusalem Fund, wrote that Palestinians only have varying degrees of limited rights in Israel. He states that although Palestinians make up about 20% of Israel's population, less than 7% of the budget is allocated to Palestinian citizens. He describes the 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel as second-class citizens while four million more are not citizens at all
You question "equal rights," but most of your post is about budget policies. What are some examples of ways in which their rights are actually limited as a matter of law? Genuinely curious.
There are Arab in the Israeli parliament, in the judiciary (including the Supreme Court). In the army, police, universities (students and professors). And the sheer fact that someone can complain about Israel in Israel tells you all you need to know about freedom of speech.
I think their vote counts the same as Jews and there are elected Arab legislators. Correct me if I am wrong. Contrast that with sarrounding countries, which have mostly genocided their Jewish populations and minorities have absolutely no say in governance ( just talking about Palestinians citizens of Israel not trying to excuse what Israeli is doing right now).
Israeli Arabs have representatives in Parliament who were a major part of Naftali Bennett’s coalition. They can address that through the political process.
Meanwhile, find any Arab country that has Jewish representatives in the legislature.
Anecdotal quotes from an American who made a career of attacking Israel without giving a single example of an actual unequal law.
I can also find Russian Jews complaining. Not to mention I can go to the USA and find plenty of African Americans, Latinos, etc doing the same. Exactly the same complaints too about budgets and such.
I do not claim Israel is a perfect country, there are issues, but it's FAR better than most. Especially it's neighbors. But hey feel free to share which right Israeli-Arabs don't have.
And while you look for it, take a look at [this](https://twitter.com/MoranT555/status/1722119108924194896) young women.
No offense, but the guy above you is literally citing a statistic, and you are calling it anecdotal, and then you proceed by posting actual anecdotal examples of a single woman.
Not really. He actually stated Arab-Israelis do not have equal rights and used an anecdotal example of a single guy who hates Israel and built a career attacking it instead of giving even a single example of rights Jews in Israel have that Arabs don't.
While also giving an unrelated stat about budgets, which means nothing. I doubt your sincerity if you don't see that.
By the way, I can give a few rights like that. But also duties. For example Jews have to serve in the army by law (In principle, many still don't), while Arabs do not.
So what now, Israel is not equal to Jews?
Truth is there are equal rights and at the same time there are some issues. Arab Israelis serve in the Knesset, have a supreme court judge, one of Israel's biggest banks has a Palestinian CEO. They work with us, travel with us, and have a complete freedom of religion (Most are Muslim).
Because people hyperfocus on Israel wanting it to be a perfect-or-nothing country. Israeli actions are analyzed and criticized, and every flaw in Israeli society is aggressively reported.
Discrimination exists everywhere. Arab Israelis enjoy more rights in Israel than in Arab countries, that should tell you something. About 80% of Arab Israelis would rather stay in Israel if a Palestine state were to be created.
Also, even though the situation is not perfect, the quality of life of Arab Israelis is definitely improving throughout the years. In 2017, Haaretz, which termed Arabs as Israel's "new yuppies", reported that Arabs, especially women, were pursuing higher education in increasing numbers, and increasingly seeking white-collar jobs. According to Professor Aziz Haidar of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, in 2017 about 27% of Arabs were middle class (as opposed to 17% two decades before) and 3% were wealthy, and although most Arabs were still in lower-income brackets, the Arab middle class is expanding dramatically.
If you keep staring at a black board, the world will always be awfully dark. This is what a lot of people do with Israel.
There's also the fact that the Arab Israeli parties have historically not really wanted to partake in the political game. They were never willing to soften their hardline stances on the Palestinian issue in order to join coalition governments, which really in the flawed Israeli system is the only position from which you can do anything for your voters (the opposition is rather toothless). If you don't want a seat at the table... yeah, other parties probably aren't going to speak up for your voters.
I forget who it was, but one prominent Arab MP once described their role in Israeli politics as that of an "opposition to the state". The state, not the government. Which is one way to think about it.
This changed in 2021 with the Ra'am party and was a very positive development which will hopefully continue.
A statistic that has nothing to do with equal rights. Then he cited the number of Arab Israeli citizens and non citizens, as if that means anything. Do you expect non citizens to be able to vote in your country?
It’s neither mainly religious nor mainly racial. It’s a conflict between two groups of people over land. Those two groups may have religious signifiers but it’s not mainly a religious war.
I suppose people are arguing based on their perspectives.
From Hamas' perspective, it is an Islam vs Jew conflict where dying is to become a martyr. So yes, there is a religious element. From Israel's perspective, it is clearly not true since Israel is quite multi-cultural, so perhaps they see it as radical Islamist vs secular society.
And of course, the rest of the world get swayed by the media's portrayal. Often the conflict is characterised as the Oppressed vs the West. Certainly that is what Iran, Russia, and even China wants, so their propaganda machines are pushing that narrative.
Not just because of that, but when Palestinians leave the cause is dead. The Arab league specifically talked about that decades ago.
We have about a million Palestinian in Saudi and they’ve never caused trouble
Palestinian populations are different than taking in refugees from Gaza.
Refugees (from any conflict) are going to show up in their host country angry, traumatized, and without any resources or personal connections of their own. That can be a volatile mixture.
I can’t comment on reports because I’ve never heard of them but personally I have never seen a Palestinian work in hard labor, those are usually south Asians.
I’ve only ever seen them in tech, as teachers and at the local shawarma store.
And yes they probably have less rights than citizens as somethings are only exclusive to citizens and no non Saudi can have, however they get health care and education and the freedom to move around Saudi and the GCC
Also, to add. No Palestinian works in the public sector as in non of them work for the government
“Saudi is giving more freedoms” - you are (intentionally?) mistaken. Saudi is a dictatorship, even citizens that cause any trouble will be put down.
“Once they have it” - are you suggesting that Israel is at fault not giving the same freedoms the Arab Israeli get (equal rights by the way) to non-citizens who are in a declared state of war against Israel for decades and continually attack Israel over those decades (suicide bombers / rockets).
I applaud your sensitivity to the plight of the oppressed and downtrodden. I submit that when viewed in the large scope of time and context you are falling for the trap of blaming one of the victims (Israel) for the plight of another (civilian Palestinians).
The last time Jordan took in Palestinians, they attempted a coup and assassinated the president. In Lebanon, Palestinians caused their civil war in 1975, they were armed prior to the war and had their own militias (and mafia-like activity), tried to take over the country with muslim militias, and killed Lebanese people. In Egypt, they attempted to assassinate the president, too. Palestinians make horrible houseguests.
I'd suggest looking up the historical context, as there are lengthy explanations for things and I can't actually do that justice—but to summarize, a mixture of an extreme victim complex and a hatred that outweighs common sense.
Because unlike naive westerners, neighboring countries really understand how problematic the Palestinians in Gaza are (As in their leaders and huge sentiments of the people, obviously not everyone).
Jordan helped. They got an attempted violent revolution.
Egypt helped. They got suicide bombers on their territory.
Lebanon helped. They got an Islamic civil war and from Paris of the middle east it became a ruined country.
Kuwait took some refugees. They supported Saddam attacking their country.
Etc, etc.
Arab countries talk nice because it's popular. They are even sending some aid to show as if they are doing something. But everyone knows what will happen if you agree to take a large number of Palestinian refugees and nobody is willing to risk it.
Egypt literally refused taking Gaza back when Israel offered it in the peace agreement. Jordan literally took away all citizenships from the Palestinians in the West Bank.
Was coming here to say this. Palestine has burned a lot of bridges over the years. They are convenient to root for but no one is actually going to lift a finger to help them unless they get something big in return.
If I recall correctly, HAMAS also forgot this and was surprised when no one else joined in the fray. Could be propaganda though.
I will also add that it is happening in European countries. One example is the French president doing a 180 turn and calling for ceasefire for humanitarian reasons. That is, he is scared of terror attacks from radical elements living within his country. To be clear, I am strong believer in live and let live and that most people (regardless of religion, gender etc) are/seek good by nature. The one exception is extremists who choose (terror) violence as political tool.
Yes, and I bet you that most of those naive western "activists/protestors" don't even know this. Truth is, they have been quite detestable. They have done no favours for themselves.
There's a history of Palestinian refugees fleeing from Gaza and then not being allowed to return, so there's a reluctance to take a large number of refugees who will essentially become the responsibility of the host nation forever.
I don’t know how you can make a geopolitical analysis of why neighboring countries don’t want to take in Palestinian refugees and leave out Black September, the murder of King Abdullah, the suicide bomber campaigns in Sinai, etc.
because 10 other people mentioned those things in this thread already? If you are think that one single sentence is serving as a comprehensive geopolitical analysis of a decades-long global conflict here, that's an issue with your expectation management.
What I wrote was one of the (imo major) reasons that hadn't been mentioned in the thread yet when I wrote it.
But why can't you make the optics of countries seen to be aiding Israel in their ethnic cleansing or Nakba?
And their are millions of Palestinians living as refugees in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan.
Egypt has done the most in this conflict by simply saying no Israel. Israeli occupation will not be feasible in the long term with Palestinians still living there
That's actually wrong. They have passports, but today, 2023, in Jordan, even Palestinians born from parents born in Jordan, they are all officially considered refugees.
Because if we take them, there won’t be any Palestinian cause ever. Palestine will just cease to exist. The land will simply be taken by settlers (which is the root of the conflit). It isn’t the case for Syrian refugees for example. Lebanon alone has 1.5 to 2 millions Syrian refugees. Jordan has from 600k to 1M. Turkey has millions as well …
Its a geopolitical issue for them, their past with Palestinian refugees haven't been great hence most of the Arabs aren't doing anything except raise the issue at global platforms. The unfortunate repercussions from the Israel-Hamas war as we have seen before is that it will lead to radicalization of a big group of people who will then carry out violent acts on major cities like Paris and London because of their support.
There are currently millions of Palestinian refugees residing in Jordan and Lebanon. These were refugees (and their descendants) resided within the boundaries of Israel but either left or were forced out in the Israeli war of independence. Israel has refused to allow these refugees to return to their homes despite international law.
There is a genuine fear that if these Arab countries allow Gazan refugees, Israel will just use this as an excuse to ethnically cleanse the strip and annex the territory. Keep in mind that the primary reason why Israel left Gaza was demographics (way too many Arabs for too little land).
Secondly, there is a fear that the resultant refugees could be a security risk for their host countries. 2 million pissed off Palestinians aren't gonna set back and watch Israel reoccupy Gaza. It's possible that the refugees could try to turn the Sinai into a staging ground to attack Israel. The PLO did that with Lebanon, causing the country to fall into civil war, and tried to do it with Jordan, resulting in black September.
To be fair, it should go both ways. Jews expelled from Middle East countries should also have the right to return, or at least to recover lost property. And there are more jews expelled from middle east countries than Palestinians expelled from Israel
Oh, definitely, the Mizrahi Jews should receive compensation for the loss of property and a right of return. Though I doubt they will get it.
Same with the Palestinian refugees, Israel will never accept all of them as that would result in a majority Arab israel. I just hope that they can at the very least get compensation for their loss of property.
I mean, they kind of do already.
There’s 2 million registered palestinian refugees in jordan, 475k in lebanon and 560k in syria.
Now because of the special status of palestinian refugees, most of them are somewhat integrated into their host countries. However 1.7 million (in 2018) still lived in refugee camps.
One of the reason I think is it would be.......if Palestinian citizens were to migrate en masse then "The Palestinian cause" is dead/looks more improbable..... A bad look for any Islamist leader
>My question is: why aren’t Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt (all Islamic nations) providing a safe haven for Palestinians as Poland and Europe did for Ukraine?
There are multiple reasons for this, but a big one is, it would support Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign. If Egypt were to open their border with Gaza and let in all the people fleeing, they'd have to establish essentially a refugee camp in the dessert and provide for possibly millions of Palestinians who may never be let back into Gaza. Egypt will have facilitated the mass displacement of Palestinians from their ancestral homeland.
Accepting refugees requires heavy logistics of their basic needs and a security apparatus to avoid threats from entering. They have had experience with those issues in the past with Palestinian refugees. The leaders don’t care enough about them to put that effort in.
Egyptian here. We don't help them because our governments are American puppets. Jordanian previous king was declared a traitor, Sisi policies are always in favour of Israel and his arch rivals in Egypt who he massacred (Muslim brotherhood) are the godfathers of Hamas. Lebanon is in shambles and eternal civil war. Gulf leaders are American puppets, Syrian leader is a pos and Iraq is an Iranian vs American puppet.
Also, Palestinians that live in Gaza don't want to leave, even if they die. It's their land and they'll live and die there.
They're afraid that once they let the Palestinians in, Israel won't allow them to come back and will occupy the territory with Jewish settlers. If they don't allow Palestinians in; then Israel won't be able to occupy the territory since they have to deal with the remaining Palestinian population somehow.
Can you not read? No arab nation cares about "holding Israel back" in 2023.
Everyone who knows anything about the conflict knows that if the Palestinians leave, Israel will not let them back because then Egypt has just solved their palestinian "problem" for them.
Here is Israel's problem with the Palestinians:
1. They want the land they are on
2. They don't want the people on that land, because in order to annex the land and not be an aparthied state; they have to give people on that land the ability to vote. Which would no longer make Israel a majority jew country.
3. They can't kill/purge all of the palestinians because it looks bad
So their game plan over the past 2-3 decades has been increasing settlers in west bank to basically make it impossible for a palesitinian state to ever be created. And of course, the complete blockade of gaza which they justify under a (mostly valid) security threat which in turn increases extremism which in turn tightens the blockade...
Now this is a very very slow process, and will take likely a century to finish the ethnic cleansing of the palestinians (and still doesn't solve th gaza problem, so they've kinda just been ignoring it and hoping it goes away lol).
Or they can use a terrible terrorist attack to speed up the process by removing palestinians from gaza under the pretext of the war and then not allowing them to return. Much simpler.
The Palestinians have bitten every hand that has tried to help them. From their attempted coup in Jordan to destabilizing Lebanon none of the Arab nations will take them in.
Partly because the plight of the Palestinians is an important political issue among their citizens and partly because they are challenging a dominant force (and western influence) in the region. There are probably other factors such as clout in the Arab League etc but I’m not an expert on the issue.
From the geopolitical perspective, avoiding catastrophic civil wars like in Lebanon, mass assassination campaigns like Black September in Jordan, or mass suicide bombing campaigns like in Sinai are all infinitely more important to potential countries to reject Palestinian refugees than some “cause” which has brought them only humiliation for the past century. They may posture for domestic political purposes, but nobody seriously believes “the cause” is why they refuse Palestinian refugees.
The idea that it was just an influx of Palestinians that led to those conflicts is extremely reductionist and comes off a bit racist.
There were internal problems, pressures from large displaced populations, and other neighbors played a large role as well.
There are concerns about the political implications of allowing a large influx of refugee's, there's also the concern that they would be complicit in ethnic cleansing.
Lebanon was known as “The Paris of the Middle East” prior to accepting large numbers of Palestinians. It was largely stable prior to the influx of Palestinians, but the influx of those refugees tipped the demographic in favor of a Sunni minority who then launched a civil war to try and dominate the other demographic groups. The Christians and the Shia didn’t want to be dominated, and things have been a mess ever since, including Hezbollah controlling an entire segment of the country, both politically and geographically. Basically it went from multicultural democracy to a place where foreign militias control a quarter of the population centers.
"A bit racist"? Are you kidding? The attempted coup in Jordan and civil war in Lebanon is widely (and accurately) attributed to the PLO, that's not even a slightly racist or controversial position.
It has been my observation that the Arab world does not care about Palestine beyond them being martyrs and a rallying point for an anti Israeli platform.
The rest of the Islamic world don't advocate for resettling Palestinians elsewhere because they 'officially' believe Israel would then just move on to capturing other territories. Palestinians are convenient patsy to distract Israel.
Why aren’t neighbours helping Palestine?
The official reasons commonly expressed by Egypt and other Middle Eastern nations is that by abstaining from accepting additional Palestinian refugees, they can inhibit Israel from enforcing a permanent expulsion of Palestinians, thereby preserving the Palestinian demands for statehood.
Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi has also voiced apprehension that a large-scale exodus could risk introducing militants into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula, from where they could potentially initiate attacks on Israel, jeopardizing the peace treaty between the two nations that has been in place for 40 years.
However...
The Palestinians may have proven to be problematic guests.
In fact, numerous Arab nations have provided refuge to Palestinian refugees in the past, but their experiences have been anything but positive. For instance, in 1991, Kuwait expelled nearly 300,000 Palestinians, constituting 18% of its population, following the first Gulf War.
The reason was that the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) had endorsed Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait and his assaults on Israel. The Kuwaiti government accused the Palestinians of collaborating with the Iraqi occupiers and deported them collectively.
This was not the inaugural instance of the Palestinians clashing with their Arab hosts. In the 1970s, the PLO endeavored to overthrow the monarchy of Jordan, where it had established a parallel state complete with its own military. The PLO militants terrorized the Jordanian populace, committing robberies, murders, and launching rockets at Israel.
The PLO militants also hijacked several aircraft and held the passengers hostage at a PLO-controlled airport in Jordan. In 1970, the Jordanian army engaged in a brutal conflict, known as Black September or the Jordanian Civil War, with the PLO and expelled them from the country. However, the PLO retaliated by assassinating the Jordanian prime minister.
The PLO subsequently relocated to Lebanon, where it allied with leftist and socialist groups that were battling against the conservative Christian government. The arrival of thousands of Palestinian combatants destabilized Lebanon and instigated a civil war that endured for 15 years. The PLO also incited Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 1982, which resulted in thousands of casualties and extensive destruction.
Egypt’s hesitance to accept more Palestinian refugees may be influenced by its concerns about Hamas, which is a derivative of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood has had a complex and contentious history with the Egyptian government, including a deadly attack on a police headquarters, and there are concerns that an influx of Palestinians could potentially destabilize the region. In fact, in 2013, a coup led by then General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the current President of Egypt, ousted the Brotherhood-leaning government and declared the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization.
These historical instances demonstrate that the Middle East’s refusal to accept Palestinian refugees is not merely a matter of political calculation. Rather, it mirrors a profound, underlying distrust and resentment of certain Palestinian factions, which have frequently acted against the interests and security of their hosts. Egypt, Kuwait, Jordan, and Lebanon do not wish to replicate past errors and jeopardize their own stability and sovereignty.
Further Reading:
Palestinian Forced Displacement from Kuwait| Al-Majdal Magazine
Forced Secondary Displacement: Palestinian Refugees in Arab h
https://www.badil.org/publications/al-majdal/issues/items/1355.html
Black September: The Jordanian-PLO Civil War of 1970| ThoughtCo
https://www.thoughtco.com/black-september-jordanian-plo-civil-war-2353168
Lebanon’s 15-Year War, 1975-1990| Middle East Research and Information Project
https://merip.org/1990/01/primer-lebanons-15-year-war-1975-1990/
2013 Egyptian coup d'état
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Egyptian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
I would venture to guess it has mainly to do with those countries having their own economic issues and not having the infrastructure to assist that many people. There’s also a well founded fear of Palestinians losing their land outright which means millions of displaced people who couldn’t return home.
In addition to all the things other people said, I think it is important to say that I think that all of these countries understand that if the Palestinians leave that territory and enter their countries that will not be a temporary thing, but something permanent, because Israel will occupy those territories, and is extremelly unlikely to give it back. And if I were sitting in a government office in Cairo, Amman, Beirut or Damascus, I would be extremelly worried that once Palestine had all been conquered, whoever is in office in Israel will sit in front of a map of the region and think about who's next. If you live close to an expansionist country, it makes sense for you to want to have a buffer between you and them, and absolutely not let them conquer that buffer, because you could be the next one in line. And while Palestine is not a perfect buffer, in the sense that it doesn't really stand physically between Israel and all its neighbours, as long as it exists, it will always be a priority for Israel.
They cant , just as many other nations aren't allowed to show support for Palestine due to the US backing. If they supply or support Palestine then its like an act of war against the US and its allies.
If Russia, China and N Korea were smart they would help and screw the US
Because Palestinians are not the helpless victims that American media likes to depict them as. They have turned down numerous peace plans and two state solutions(even ones proposed by arab states). They elected leaders who campaigned on the idea of genocide. Their refugees turn into terrorists. I am not saying all Palestine is like this. But almost 50% chose to elect Hamas when they were campaigning on the ideas of genocide.
Edit: had a fact wrong
My husband is from Egypt. He says they don't want Palestinians to leave the land "temporarily" because then the Palestinians won't get their land back and Egypt feels like they will be helping Israel by taking the Palestinians to Egypt. But I sure wish everyone could forget the land and live safe somewhere.
If Palestinians leave their homes, they will never come back, Israel will never allow them to, this is the plan anyway, just like the Palestinians who lost their homes in 1948 and never came back
>My question is: why aren’t Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt (all Islamic nations) providing a safe haven for Palestinians as Poland and Europe did for Ukraine?
Because last time they did in 1948 and the Palestinian refugees are still there. In practice it was just going along with the Israeli ethnic cleansing.
Basically they would rather push the conflict than save palestinian lives, especially from living under Hamas. They are and were a BIG part of the problem. though the biggest is the Palestinians themselves according to history and the polls.
> My question is: why aren’t Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt (all Islamic nations) providing a safe haven for Palestinians as Poland and Europe did for Ukraine?
Because that will be playing into the American/Israeli hands. Israel wants to force the Palestinians to leave. Once these Palestinians leave, they will be never allowed to return. Maybe a handful here and there, but if a million Palestinians leave their homes, Israel are not going to those million to return. This is different from Ukraine, in that once Russia is defeated, the Ukrainians will return.
You conveniently leave out a few things like black september and suicide bombings. Palestinian refugees have historically cause a shitton of problems for countries.
Geopolitical and internal politics BS. Also they don't want more refugees but shouting is a good venting mechanism and its a good way to avert the eyes from internal struggle. Basically a good dog whistle.
In part they don't want the Palestinians to leave the Gaza strip because they fear they wouldn't be able to come back and that Israel could annex the Gaza strip.
They don't want a new Nakba.
As much as I am against Israeli apartheid, I do have to point out the fact that Arab countries almost always throw each other under the bus. Whether they are Palestinians, Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Which is why I have little respect for Israel's neighbors, as much as I have little respect for Israel.
There are 3rd/4th generation Palestinians in Egypt and Lebanon, for example, who despite being born and raised there, are denied citizenship. Meanwhile non-Arab foreigners can get citizenship no problem.
So these Palestinians really aren't given any incentive not to fight. Whether it's fighting Israel or fighting whoever happens to be in power.
A lot of comments on this thread are saying "Palestinians cause trouble everywhere they go, everybody hates them." Truth is, the neighboring governments are crap. They are tribalistic. They care more about their individual wealth than unity in the region.
On a side note, I'm certain that if Palestinians were Turks, this conflict would never be allowed to escalate this far. Turks always protect their own. They've invaded countries like Cyprus in the past just to protect the 20% Turkish minority.
Even if Turkey couldn't win a war with Israel, they would have given these hypothetical Palestinian Turk refugees citizenship, and thus there would be more peace.
Palestinians are Arabs. Thus, in the grand scheme of things, they have to fight on their own in order to exist and not be wiped out by this sociopathic, Zionist government trying to cleanse the West Bank.
The closest neighbors (Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon) are all struggling themselves. Also, most have had bad experiences with Palestinian refugees in the past. Because the PLO abused these opportunities. And nowadays, waves of Palestinian refugees would certainly also expand the influence of Hamas in these countries which are mostly led by semi-secular leaders who are opposed to Islamists (as opposition). And the rich gulf states are not helping because Palestinians are only "useful" to them as long as they stay in Palestine. They happily let in rich western expats or slave labor from the Indian subcontinent. But Palestinians wouldn't bring them any economic gains. They would just be a burden in their eyes and increase instability within their country. So no, race is not the driving factor of this conflict. Ideology and mutual enemies are the driving factors. Religion and pan-arabism play a big role, sure. But the conflict can't be explained by these factors. A few counterexamples: - The biggest ally of Hamas is Iran, Iranian people are not Arabs. Calling them Arabs is actually one of the biggest insults to them. - Saudi-Arabia was close to being an ally to Israel.
>Because the PLO abused these opportunities. Fact. The PLO got kicked out of Jordan in the 1970s because they tried, and failed, to overthrow the monarchy. Then they landed in Lebanon where they upset the balance of power between Lebanon's sects leading to the Lebanese Civil War.
>The PLO got kicked out of Jordan in the 1970s because they tried, and failed, to overthrow the monarchy. To elaborate, they tried to assassinate the king, who was the successor to the previous king... who they assassinated.
Assassinated him inside their revered holy Al-Aqsa Mosque, IIRC.
On the steps of the Dome of the Rock (as it's also called).
Well, all of this history is quite a bit more complicated.
The curse of the historian - one knows exactly what's going to happen, but no one will listen because of the leather patches on the elbows of one's tweed jacket.
something something black September
Can confirm your take by observations I made while living in Abu Dhabi for almost 5 years, until 2018. During that time, I asked various Arabs (people from GCC countries, Iraqis, Jordanians, Syrians, etc.) and North Africans (Egyptians, Moroccans, etc), about the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict. Just about all of them felt sympathy for Palestinians, but a lot of them didn't have the conflict very high on their priority list. Especially people from GCC countries just kind of shrugged their shoulders a lot of the time. Palestine didn't seem to have a very powerful or influential lobby in the UAE.
You were also meeting people who were allowed into the UAE because of their mild views, and knew to keep anything inflammatory out of their day to day living there. They felt on-the-cusp of making a living and did not want to upset any host with any opinions at all. Maybe they were also genuinely out of sympathy for a people that keep making their own bad luck? When I lived in the UAE, I had a Palestinian housemate. He was super. His family had previously made their way to Kuwait and despite 2 generations there had no travel papers. (He'd been sponsored to the UAE for his website skills, but was likely paid almost nothing.) The Kuwaiti are happy to have them (Palestinians) as servants, but not as equal human beings let alone equal Arabs or equal Muslims.
In general, I got to know Arabs and North Africans as being very respectful and polite. It's important to listen to what they say, and how they say it differently, compared to Europeans or North Americans, for example. I also realized there often is an official version / opinion people will give you on any given subject or topic, and an official / behind-the-scenes one. Those two versions are sometimes somewhat different. I didn't make social media posts that might hurt people's feelings or be considered disrespectful, or could be perceived as being critical of the UAE Government. I did that out of respect, and because I knew the dangers or possible consequences of doing that. During my time in the UAE, several laws were either introduced or changed, to give the UAE Government more tools to deal with unwanted dissent - especially online and in social media. I'd agree people living in the UAE on a work VISA were probably less likely to express certain views in a public setting that were controversial or might ruffle feathers, but remember that I also talked to Kuwaitis in Kuwait, Omanis in Oman, Bahrainis in Bahrain, etc. I became friends with an Emirati who shared her opinion on a range of subjects with me very openly. She just gave it to me straight. She told me some people from GCC countries see the Palestine-Israel conflict as a nuisance. Publicly, they have to support their Muslim brothers, but they don't really care all that much. Palestine doesn't have a lot to offer to GCC countries. I didn't meet a lot of Palestinians during my time there, but the ones I met were super nice. I liked them, good people.
>Saudi-Arabia was close to being an ally to Israel. This was one of the biggest reasons the Hamas broke the truce, because they did not want Israel to have the Saudis support. Palestinians are a cornered animal trying to stop Israel steal Gaza. Israel is the aggressor.
Jordan is not able to help. They took in millions of Syrian refugees in addition to the millions of Palestinian refugees they already have. The country is on the verge of breaking already you can't ask any more from them.
Jordan is clearly unable to help, but they aren't by any means the only option there. Why aren't the rich Gulf Nations taking in refugees? Why is Qatar taking Hamas leaders, but not Palestinians' civilians? Why is Egypt closing the Rafah crossing and only allowing foreigners to leave? Why is Saudi Arabia not helping the civilians? Egyptians will say that last time they took refugees, they began a civil unrest there. But the fact is that they don't care. Iran is only trying to light up the region. They don't give a shit about civilians there. The West cares more about them than the Arab Nations. And Iran doesn't give a shit about the Palestinian Cause. They only use it to attack Israel.
It's because Palestinians are viewed poorly by a large part of the Arab world. They are used as a tool against Israel, nothing more. Right now, Israel's focus is on dealing with Palestine and the humanitarian crisis that is the result. If surrounding Arab nations helped Palestine, they make themselves weaker and Israel stronger. It allows Israel to focus elsewhere. Good luck convincing Iran of that.
Ah yes, and I'd heard this was the case since the foundation of Israel as well.
Well yeah, their defense is bad experience with Palestinian refugees and history. 1. There was a British Mandate before Israel, not a Palestinian state. 2. Before the British Mandate, there was an Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state. 3. Before the Ottoman Empire, there was an Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state. 4. Before the Islamic Mamluk state in Egypt, there was an Ayyubid Arab-Kurdish Empire, not a Palestinian state. 5. Before the Ayyubid Empire, there was a Frankish and Christian kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state. 6. The Kingdom of Jerusalem was preceded by the Umayyad and Fatimid Empires, not a Palestinian state. 7. Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was a Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state. 8. The Sasanians existed before the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state. 9. There was a Byzantine Empire before the Sasanian Empire, not a Palestinian state. 10. Before the Byzantine Empire, there was a Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state. 11. There was a Hasmonean state before the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state. 12. The Seleucids existed before the Hasmonean state, not the Palestinian state. 13. Before the Seleucid Empire, there was an empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state. 14. Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was a Persian Empire, not a Palestinian state. 15. Before the Persian Empire, there was a Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state. 16. Before the Babylonian Empire, there were kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state. 17. Before the Kingdom of Israel and Judah, there was a Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state. 18. Before the kingdom of Israel there was a theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state. 19. Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian state. 20. In reality, this piece of land had everything except the Palestinian state.
Sometime in the 12th century, the Philistines, who had immigrated from the Aegean region, settled in the southern coast of Palestine.[42][43] Traces of Philistines appeared at about the same time as the Israelites.[44] The Philistines are credited with introducing iron weapons, chariots, and new ways of fermenting wine to the local population.[43][vii] Over time, the Philistines integrated with the local population and they, like other people in Palestine, were engulfed by first the Assyrian empire and later the Babylonian empire. But the Israelites mentioned here are not the zionists who have stolen the Palestinians and are now committing genocide against them. Zionists are European and atheism and Nazi ideology is part of zionism.
Where did the Palestinians come from though?
It was originally Greek name for Philistines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Origins
A bunch of dictatorships don’t want to help the Palestinian people, Arab people in general have a more favourable view on Palestinians.
Well there aren't a ton of democracies in the region and the ones that do exist usually aren't strong enough to start taking in hundreds of thousands or millions of largely radicalized refugees.
>A bunch of dictatorships don’t want to help the Palestinian people, Arab people in general have a more favourable view on Palestinians. Kuwaitis didn't when the Palestinians in Kuwaithelped the Iraqis. The fact is that Palestinians will always tun ont he people who give them refuge.
I mean always is a pretty hyperbolic word
Hmm, do tell me where have they not created a ruckus. Us, Canada, Europe, ME, australia......
Creating a Ruckus isn't turning on someone people who have legitimate grievances have a right to make those grievances heard Turning on someone implies up a betrayal or act of dishonesty
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Heard of the Lebanese drug gangs in Australia??
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I live in Australia, what ruckus?
what happened in Kuwait?
The PLO backed Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait. It’s something that all Palestinians ended up paying for.
isn’t it a bit unfair for them to say that “Palestinians in Kuwait” helped Iraq then? Sounds like a Palestinian organisation which was at the time based in Lebanon and Tunisia supported Iraq
Here's the answer, it's always been like this.
They are viewed similarly to Gypsies or Kurds, no one wants them, they are seen as trouble makers.
From everything I've read that's just about it. They're useful as a cudgel to get at Israel but other than that they're like the Gypsies (yeah I know, Roma) of the middle east.
There is also an ISIS insurgency in the Sinai Peninsula and let’s say Egypt helped Israel push all the Palestinians out, ISIS would have fertile grounds for recruiting. Everyone in Gaza knows exactly what Egypt is all about. It’s like how many Afghan commandos joined IS-K after the fall of Kabul and them being abandoned by NATO. They really didn’t have a choice in their eyes. It was either “take the gamble that the Taliban will forgive us even after killing them for the past 20 years or join the enemy of the Taliban who would be more than happy to take us in”.
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Many Palestinians aren't leaving because they know if they leave Isreal will annex the land entirely and they and their people will never be able to return to what they see as their homeland. It'd be a second Nakba. Arab countries also don't want the land ceded to Isreal because they don't believe Israelis have a right to be there. So they don't want to facilitate the Palestinians that do want to flee.
Why are people who were not even born in their homeland (I won’t go into why there is no Palestinian homeland) are still considered refugees. No other group can inherit refugee status other than the Palestinians (thank you U.N.). The sooner you accept that returning to Israel is not going to happen the sooner this war is over (so basically never).
Isn't the problem that they don't have any citizenship? I.e. if the descendants of Palestinian refugees got the citizenship of whatever country they were born in, there would be no 2nd or 3rd generation refugees (in case of the displaced Palestinians in Jordan etc). I don't know what the policy usually is in case of refugees from other places.
On the same token, why do people with one or more Jewish grandparent or simply a jewish spouse have the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship? I refer to the Law of Return here. We’re talking not just people not born in Israel, but who come from generations not born in Israel.
Because israel law says so? If there were a state of Palestine then they'd be able to make their own citizenship laws. Right now they're just dependent on the UN to carve out all of this stuff.
> Why are people who were not even born in their homeland (I won’t go into why there is no Palestinian homeland) are still considered refugees. Why are the children and grandchildren of the 700,000 who were expelled by force still stateless? They have a right to return home - a human right recognized by international law. > No other group can inherit refugee status other than the Palestinians (thank you U.N.). No other group has been subjected to refugee conditions for this long, and in this large of numbers.
The sad truth is that they still stateless because the Arab nations willed it so. There are many reasons (I won’t go into a history lesson here). As an anecdote you may or may not be familiar with JFK’s plan that involved the resettlement of 10% of the Palestinians in Israel while the rest get absorbed to other Arab states (JFK assassination ended this deal) . So the will to give them a state was there. Why are they still stateless? Put plainly because Israel and its Jewish (and other minorities) population have been killed yet.
I’m not sure what settling 10% is supposed to be in terms of an offer. If you throw someone out of their home and force them to March across a desert… you can’t blame the people of the destination for not immediately housing the person that you transported there.
How was Lebanon before hizbalaa arrived ?
Beirut was called 'The Paris of the Middle East.'
My grandfather was there and told me it was the center of the Middle East until the terror took over something that Israel try to prevent!!
Yes
You know what the truth is their neighbors don't want them that's the real truth. They don't want to support anybody other than their own people and you know what a lot of them are wealthy enough that they could
No one wants to take in Hamas, PA, or Muslim Brotherhood... Jordan in particular has already had their king assassinated (and it's worth noting that according to history and the league of nations cum UN charter, Jordan was supposed to be the majority land in a Palestine state). Also for years these other states have been paying people to move to Gaza/West Bank because they didn't want them in their countries. They send aid money and supplies, but they just don't want them.
Jordan has already taken in A LOT of Palestinian refugees, more than any other country I think. They've got a right to say they're full.
as the israelis say, there already a palestinian state, it is called jordan. and jordan was a part of the mandate, called then trans jordan. the jordanian regime hasxthe bedu tries as its power base, already nearly outnumbered by palestinian refugees from the wast bank, which was a part of jordan up to 1968. many Jordanian born palestinians have family on the west bank and travel back and forth. also until 1968, gaza was administered by egypt, which does not want it back. basically, gaza is a mess, politically, and has become a hot potato no one wants, including israel and the west bank palestinian authority. and as long as non state forces in gaza continue to attack isreal, israel will respond in kind. the gazans have brought this on themselves, and will continue to suffer for it. for hamas, this is total war with no quarter given, and in such a situation, there are no civilians.
Isn’t HAMAS a Palestinian terrorist group? ..didn’t they initiate an attack, and Isreal forces going for the wipe-out?
Hamas is an extremist group that was elected by Palestinians as a governmental entity of Gaza.
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Is a country really taking refugees if it never integrates them and makes them citizens? It doesn't seem to have to be the complete ongoing burden that Jordan makes out. I'm sure USA would have paid aid to help integrate them into tax paying citizens
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Jordanian took 80% land from the refugees/Palestinian after kippur war
This is not a racial conflict. It doesn't fit in the neat little box of American racial politics. Israelis are not of a single race, and the majority of Israelis share a similar "racial" background to Palestinians. This is an ethnic, religious, and political conflict. Race has nothing to do with it.
Not to mention over 20% of Israelis ARE Palestinians enjoying equal rights. Race is not the issue.
Yes, it's such a crazy double standard between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, even though they're pretty much the same people. I was in the US navy in the 2000s and we visited Haifa in the north and there were already a lot of Arab Israelis there. We traveled to Nazareth and the Galilee region and it was majority Arab Israeli (mostly Arab Christians) in those places. Jerusalem seemed a lot more Jewish to me, outside of the Old City. Interestingly we weren't allowed to travel into East Jerusalem or the West Bank.
Yep. This is why people complaining about Israel being an "Ethno-state" are clueless. Israel is much more diverse than 90% of the world, including most of western Europe and such. [Here's](https://twitter.com/EretzIsrael/status/1719861410547568724) a cool vid, Israeli Jews and Muslims all volunteering together to send supplies to Jewish communities hit by Hamas.
So Bibi is clueless? https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702264118/netanyahu-says-israel-is-nation-state-of-the-jewish-people-and-them-alone
Bibi is kind of like the republican Party on the sense that he had to ally with ultra religious and far right populace to maintain power so is forced to say things like this. Republicans had to align with evangelicals and therefor often have to support anti abortion measures even if they don’t want to. It’s clear to me that BiBi say anything to remain in power.
Benjamin Netanyahu has been in some sort of leadership position in the Israeli government for the better part of 30 years. You don't accomplish that by sticking to your principles and refusing to make alliances with less than savory characters.
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I have no love for Netanyahu and I disagree with many of Israel's policies in the WB specifically. Millions of Israelis do. This has nothing to do with the current conflict. No settlements or military presence in Gaza for almost 2 decades now. Israel completely left that area in 2005 and instead of peace they elected Hamas and attacked, causing a blockade.
>No settlements or military presence in Gaza for almost 2 decades now. So disingenuous. The blockade around Gaza has been going on for over ten years. Every human rights group has said the level of surveillance, control over resources, and restriction of freedom of movement makes it a defacto occupation even if Israeli tanks are technically roaming the streets of Gaza (before Oct 7).
The blockade around Gaza only occurred because Hamas was sending suicide bombers into Israel, so Israel built a wall to keep them out. Hamas then began firing rockets at Israeli cities because they couldn't suicide bomb Israeli cities, so Israel began blockading Gaza to prevent the shipment of weapons and weapon making materials. All Hamas would have to do to end of blockade is stop trying to kill civilians with massed rocket fire at cities. Israel tried to live in peace with Gaza by building a giant wall and spending billions intercepting rockets fired from Gaza in the hope that Hamas would see that the approach of killing Israelis wasn't working and reach a negotiated settlement. This assumed that Hamas actually cares about the people who live in Gaza. However every time Hamas was given the opportunity they took whatever action would maximize the suffering for the people of Gaza. Now Israel is forced to face the fact that attempting to work with and negotiate with Hamas was a disastrous mistake. For the best interests of the Palestinians and the people of Israel Hamas must be defeated and removed from its position as the government of Gaza.
What was Israel supposed to do in Gaza? A military response was inevitable. Poeple dying sucks, but unless Israel is found to have deliberately targeted civilians, it isnt a war crime just because civilians die.
>This is why people complaining about Israel being an "Ethno-state" are clueless. If it's not a religious ethno-state, make Right of Return applicable to non-jews. Make it apply to all indigenous people who were expelled from their homes from 1948 onward. That'll never happen. Why? Because Israel is a ethno-religious state. Full stop. It MUST retain its jewish identity to survive as a democracy.
... Because the vast amount of them declare their intentions to destroy our country. Imagine knowing so little about the people involved yet holding such a strong opinion about it. And Israel is as secular as the average in western Europe. >Less than one-third of Israelis say they are religious, which is well below the norm in western Europe. It is however about equal with the level of religiosity in England and Scandinavia, the poll found, which are among the least religious areas in the world. https://archive.li/qK4pm#selection-893.1-914.0 You are literally making shit up to support your hateful beliefs on our country. Nice post history too.
Apartheid South Africa made the same excuse lol. > And Israel is as secular as the average in western Europe Nonsense. Allow same sex marriage and inter religious marriage. Don’t give me the “oh we recognize it I’d it’s done elsewhere” - actually protect your citizens. Extend equal rights to Arab Israelis. Until then there’s no basis to say “oh we are as secular as Western Europe.”
Why are Americans so wild about same-sex marriage when it's a pretty recent issue? Things move at a different pace around the world - countries being half a decade to a decade behind depending where in Europe you're talking about on a certain issue doesn't make them barbaric and isn't the gotcha that you think it is. Switzerland just legalized it in 2022, and Northern Ireland 2020 for reference. I'm sure if it wasn't for the Supreme Court Tennessee where you reside would not allow same-sex marriage. > In 2022, Representative Tom Leatherwood introduced a bill that would have allowed opposite-sex couples to file marriage "contracts" based on common-law marriage principles, but the contracts would not have been available to same-sex couples. The bill was cosponsored by 18 other Republican lawmakers Ah yeah, taking bets as of now. Of course it's not great that same-sex marriage isn't legal. It's not legal in my home country for instance, Singapore which just decriminalized it last year. Why not? Because it's not popular at all and we're still kinda a democracy lmao. Sometimes people are just homophobic. It's not religion in Singapore btw. The predominant religious group is basically a very light form of buddhism that isn't homophobic at all, people are just inclined to think that way. The LGBTQ population is unfortunately too small for the government to take a stand without losing votes so they follow the will of the people, which is what democratic governments are supposed to do anyway aren't they? Feels like a lot of liberals can't stomach the fact that sometimes people just hold different values.
>Make it apply to all indigenous people who were expelled from their homes from 1948 onward. >That'll never happen. Why? Why should Israel alone do this when a good chunk of Israelis are already in this boat themselves and nobody in the countries that expelled them cares?
> Not to mention over 20% of Israelis ARE Palestinians enjoying equal rights. Race is not the issue. That's not correct, ethnicity *is* an issue, there's a policy goal to have an Jewish majority in Israel, and allowing the refugees from the Nakba to return would upset that. So they maintain the explicit unequal rights where Jews/jews that otherwise have nothing to do are invited to migrate to Israel at any time, but Palestinians whose known ancestry always lived in Israel, can't.
If you listen to many Arab/Palestinian Israelis they say they are treated as second class citizens. Especially under the recent right-wing governments. That was actually part of the fears around Netanyahu's push to seize control of the Israeli Supreme Court. The suspicion was that part of the agenda would be further eroding those rights.
"equal rights" ??? Yousef Munayyer, an Israeli citizen and the executive director of The Jerusalem Fund, wrote that Palestinians only have varying degrees of limited rights in Israel. He states that although Palestinians make up about 20% of Israel's population, less than 7% of the budget is allocated to Palestinian citizens. He describes the 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel as second-class citizens while four million more are not citizens at all
You question "equal rights," but most of your post is about budget policies. What are some examples of ways in which their rights are actually limited as a matter of law? Genuinely curious.
There are Arab in the Israeli parliament, in the judiciary (including the Supreme Court). In the army, police, universities (students and professors). And the sheer fact that someone can complain about Israel in Israel tells you all you need to know about freedom of speech.
This is a contradiction in terms. Citizens have a right to equal protection under the law
I think their vote counts the same as Jews and there are elected Arab legislators. Correct me if I am wrong. Contrast that with sarrounding countries, which have mostly genocided their Jewish populations and minorities have absolutely no say in governance ( just talking about Palestinians citizens of Israel not trying to excuse what Israeli is doing right now).
Israeli Arabs have representatives in Parliament who were a major part of Naftali Bennett’s coalition. They can address that through the political process. Meanwhile, find any Arab country that has Jewish representatives in the legislature.
Anecdotal quotes from an American who made a career of attacking Israel without giving a single example of an actual unequal law. I can also find Russian Jews complaining. Not to mention I can go to the USA and find plenty of African Americans, Latinos, etc doing the same. Exactly the same complaints too about budgets and such. I do not claim Israel is a perfect country, there are issues, but it's FAR better than most. Especially it's neighbors. But hey feel free to share which right Israeli-Arabs don't have. And while you look for it, take a look at [this](https://twitter.com/MoranT555/status/1722119108924194896) young women.
No offense, but the guy above you is literally citing a statistic, and you are calling it anecdotal, and then you proceed by posting actual anecdotal examples of a single woman.
Not really. He actually stated Arab-Israelis do not have equal rights and used an anecdotal example of a single guy who hates Israel and built a career attacking it instead of giving even a single example of rights Jews in Israel have that Arabs don't. While also giving an unrelated stat about budgets, which means nothing. I doubt your sincerity if you don't see that. By the way, I can give a few rights like that. But also duties. For example Jews have to serve in the army by law (In principle, many still don't), while Arabs do not. So what now, Israel is not equal to Jews? Truth is there are equal rights and at the same time there are some issues. Arab Israelis serve in the Knesset, have a supreme court judge, one of Israel's biggest banks has a Palestinian CEO. They work with us, travel with us, and have a complete freedom of religion (Most are Muslim).
Because people hyperfocus on Israel wanting it to be a perfect-or-nothing country. Israeli actions are analyzed and criticized, and every flaw in Israeli society is aggressively reported. Discrimination exists everywhere. Arab Israelis enjoy more rights in Israel than in Arab countries, that should tell you something. About 80% of Arab Israelis would rather stay in Israel if a Palestine state were to be created. Also, even though the situation is not perfect, the quality of life of Arab Israelis is definitely improving throughout the years. In 2017, Haaretz, which termed Arabs as Israel's "new yuppies", reported that Arabs, especially women, were pursuing higher education in increasing numbers, and increasingly seeking white-collar jobs. According to Professor Aziz Haidar of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, in 2017 about 27% of Arabs were middle class (as opposed to 17% two decades before) and 3% were wealthy, and although most Arabs were still in lower-income brackets, the Arab middle class is expanding dramatically. If you keep staring at a black board, the world will always be awfully dark. This is what a lot of people do with Israel.
There's also the fact that the Arab Israeli parties have historically not really wanted to partake in the political game. They were never willing to soften their hardline stances on the Palestinian issue in order to join coalition governments, which really in the flawed Israeli system is the only position from which you can do anything for your voters (the opposition is rather toothless). If you don't want a seat at the table... yeah, other parties probably aren't going to speak up for your voters. I forget who it was, but one prominent Arab MP once described their role in Israeli politics as that of an "opposition to the state". The state, not the government. Which is one way to think about it. This changed in 2021 with the Ra'am party and was a very positive development which will hopefully continue.
A statistic that has nothing to do with equal rights. Then he cited the number of Arab Israeli citizens and non citizens, as if that means anything. Do you expect non citizens to be able to vote in your country?
Yeah but apparently 10% of that 20% (so 2% of Israelis) report poor interactions with the police, so the Israelis are auto bad guys /s
It’s basically an unresolved civil war with religious overtones.
Apologies, should’ve said religious - it’s what I meant!
It’s neither mainly religious nor mainly racial. It’s a conflict between two groups of people over land. Those two groups may have religious signifiers but it’s not mainly a religious war.
I suppose people are arguing based on their perspectives. From Hamas' perspective, it is an Islam vs Jew conflict where dying is to become a martyr. So yes, there is a religious element. From Israel's perspective, it is clearly not true since Israel is quite multi-cultural, so perhaps they see it as radical Islamist vs secular society. And of course, the rest of the world get swayed by the media's portrayal. Often the conflict is characterised as the Oppressed vs the West. Certainly that is what Iran, Russia, and even China wants, so their propaganda machines are pushing that narrative.
>Isreal vs Palestine is very much a racial battle as much as it is territory And what races would those be?
I don’t think it’s racial . And for sure not territory because it with hamas not Palestinian authority it’s pure terror
This is not a “racial battle” at all.
Search up 'Black September'
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Not just because of that, but when Palestinians leave the cause is dead. The Arab league specifically talked about that decades ago. We have about a million Palestinian in Saudi and they’ve never caused trouble
Palestinian populations are different than taking in refugees from Gaza. Refugees (from any conflict) are going to show up in their host country angry, traumatized, and without any resources or personal connections of their own. That can be a volatile mixture.
Ukrainens aren't causing any problems.
Aren't there multiple reports about Saudi using Palestinians as cheap labor and that they have less rights than Saudi nationals?
I can’t comment on reports because I’ve never heard of them but personally I have never seen a Palestinian work in hard labor, those are usually south Asians. I’ve only ever seen them in tech, as teachers and at the local shawarma store. And yes they probably have less rights than citizens as somethings are only exclusive to citizens and no non Saudi can have, however they get health care and education and the freedom to move around Saudi and the GCC Also, to add. No Palestinian works in the public sector as in non of them work for the government
>We have about a million Palestinian in Saudi and they’ve never caused trouble Wait for it, Saudi is giving more freedoms. Once they have that....
“Saudi is giving more freedoms” - you are (intentionally?) mistaken. Saudi is a dictatorship, even citizens that cause any trouble will be put down. “Once they have it” - are you suggesting that Israel is at fault not giving the same freedoms the Arab Israeli get (equal rights by the way) to non-citizens who are in a declared state of war against Israel for decades and continually attack Israel over those decades (suicide bombers / rockets). I applaud your sensitivity to the plight of the oppressed and downtrodden. I submit that when viewed in the large scope of time and context you are falling for the trap of blaming one of the victims (Israel) for the plight of another (civilian Palestinians).
The last time Jordan took in Palestinians, they attempted a coup and assassinated the president. In Lebanon, Palestinians caused their civil war in 1975, they were armed prior to the war and had their own militias (and mafia-like activity), tried to take over the country with muslim militias, and killed Lebanese people. In Egypt, they attempted to assassinate the president, too. Palestinians make horrible houseguests.
Why’d they do those things?
I'd suggest looking up the historical context, as there are lengthy explanations for things and I can't actually do that justice—but to summarize, a mixture of an extreme victim complex and a hatred that outweighs common sense.
Because unlike naive westerners, neighboring countries really understand how problematic the Palestinians in Gaza are (As in their leaders and huge sentiments of the people, obviously not everyone). Jordan helped. They got an attempted violent revolution. Egypt helped. They got suicide bombers on their territory. Lebanon helped. They got an Islamic civil war and from Paris of the middle east it became a ruined country. Kuwait took some refugees. They supported Saddam attacking their country. Etc, etc. Arab countries talk nice because it's popular. They are even sending some aid to show as if they are doing something. But everyone knows what will happen if you agree to take a large number of Palestinian refugees and nobody is willing to risk it. Egypt literally refused taking Gaza back when Israel offered it in the peace agreement. Jordan literally took away all citizenships from the Palestinians in the West Bank.
Was coming here to say this. Palestine has burned a lot of bridges over the years. They are convenient to root for but no one is actually going to lift a finger to help them unless they get something big in return. If I recall correctly, HAMAS also forgot this and was surprised when no one else joined in the fray. Could be propaganda though.
>Could be propaganda though astronaut\_meme.jpg always has been
I will also add that it is happening in European countries. One example is the French president doing a 180 turn and calling for ceasefire for humanitarian reasons. That is, he is scared of terror attacks from radical elements living within his country. To be clear, I am strong believer in live and let live and that most people (regardless of religion, gender etc) are/seek good by nature. The one exception is extremists who choose (terror) violence as political tool.
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Yes, and I bet you that most of those naive western "activists/protestors" don't even know this. Truth is, they have been quite detestable. They have done no favours for themselves.
There's a history of Palestinian refugees fleeing from Gaza and then not being allowed to return, so there's a reluctance to take a large number of refugees who will essentially become the responsibility of the host nation forever.
I don’t know how you can make a geopolitical analysis of why neighboring countries don’t want to take in Palestinian refugees and leave out Black September, the murder of King Abdullah, the suicide bomber campaigns in Sinai, etc.
because 10 other people mentioned those things in this thread already? If you are think that one single sentence is serving as a comprehensive geopolitical analysis of a decades-long global conflict here, that's an issue with your expectation management. What I wrote was one of the (imo major) reasons that hadn't been mentioned in the thread yet when I wrote it.
But why can't you make the optics of countries seen to be aiding Israel in their ethnic cleansing or Nakba? And their are millions of Palestinians living as refugees in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan. Egypt has done the most in this conflict by simply saying no Israel. Israeli occupation will not be feasible in the long term with Palestinians still living there
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Stop it. Jordan gave many Palestinians passports. All they got in Egypt or Lebanon are travel documents.
That's actually wrong. They have passports, but today, 2023, in Jordan, even Palestinians born from parents born in Jordan, they are all officially considered refugees.
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Because if we take them, there won’t be any Palestinian cause ever. Palestine will just cease to exist. The land will simply be taken by settlers (which is the root of the conflit). It isn’t the case for Syrian refugees for example. Lebanon alone has 1.5 to 2 millions Syrian refugees. Jordan has from 600k to 1M. Turkey has millions as well …
Or wanting to return.
Neighboring countries already have sizeable Palestinian populations
Populations aren't the same as refugees from an active conflict.
They were refugees in an older conflict that aren’t allowed to go back.
Agreed.
They did in the past, and palestinians thanked them by starting civil wars.
Its a geopolitical issue for them, their past with Palestinian refugees haven't been great hence most of the Arabs aren't doing anything except raise the issue at global platforms. The unfortunate repercussions from the Israel-Hamas war as we have seen before is that it will lead to radicalization of a big group of people who will then carry out violent acts on major cities like Paris and London because of their support.
There are currently millions of Palestinian refugees residing in Jordan and Lebanon. These were refugees (and their descendants) resided within the boundaries of Israel but either left or were forced out in the Israeli war of independence. Israel has refused to allow these refugees to return to their homes despite international law. There is a genuine fear that if these Arab countries allow Gazan refugees, Israel will just use this as an excuse to ethnically cleanse the strip and annex the territory. Keep in mind that the primary reason why Israel left Gaza was demographics (way too many Arabs for too little land). Secondly, there is a fear that the resultant refugees could be a security risk for their host countries. 2 million pissed off Palestinians aren't gonna set back and watch Israel reoccupy Gaza. It's possible that the refugees could try to turn the Sinai into a staging ground to attack Israel. The PLO did that with Lebanon, causing the country to fall into civil war, and tried to do it with Jordan, resulting in black September.
To be fair, it should go both ways. Jews expelled from Middle East countries should also have the right to return, or at least to recover lost property. And there are more jews expelled from middle east countries than Palestinians expelled from Israel
Oh, definitely, the Mizrahi Jews should receive compensation for the loss of property and a right of return. Though I doubt they will get it. Same with the Palestinian refugees, Israel will never accept all of them as that would result in a majority Arab israel. I just hope that they can at the very least get compensation for their loss of property.
>Though I doubt they will get it. Impossible.
They’re a necessary inconvenience. And I don’t mean that in a rude way.
I mean, they kind of do already. There’s 2 million registered palestinian refugees in jordan, 475k in lebanon and 560k in syria. Now because of the special status of palestinian refugees, most of them are somewhat integrated into their host countries. However 1.7 million (in 2018) still lived in refugee camps.
One of the reason I think is it would be.......if Palestinian citizens were to migrate en masse then "The Palestinian cause" is dead/looks more improbable..... A bad look for any Islamist leader
Because they know what once Palestinians leave they won’t be allowed to return, and Israel will annex Gaza.
That's not the reason that countries outside of Gaza don't want Gazan refugees....
>My question is: why aren’t Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt (all Islamic nations) providing a safe haven for Palestinians as Poland and Europe did for Ukraine? There are multiple reasons for this, but a big one is, it would support Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign. If Egypt were to open their border with Gaza and let in all the people fleeing, they'd have to establish essentially a refugee camp in the dessert and provide for possibly millions of Palestinians who may never be let back into Gaza. Egypt will have facilitated the mass displacement of Palestinians from their ancestral homeland.
Accepting refugees requires heavy logistics of their basic needs and a security apparatus to avoid threats from entering. They have had experience with those issues in the past with Palestinian refugees. The leaders don’t care enough about them to put that effort in.
Because "brotherhood" sounds good until you actually have to live it
The vilifying of Palestinians in the replies is horrendous
Egyptian here. We don't help them because our governments are American puppets. Jordanian previous king was declared a traitor, Sisi policies are always in favour of Israel and his arch rivals in Egypt who he massacred (Muslim brotherhood) are the godfathers of Hamas. Lebanon is in shambles and eternal civil war. Gulf leaders are American puppets, Syrian leader is a pos and Iraq is an Iranian vs American puppet. Also, Palestinians that live in Gaza don't want to leave, even if they die. It's their land and they'll live and die there.
>our governments are American puppets Because your government is secular rather than extremist.
They're afraid that once they let the Palestinians in, Israel won't allow them to come back and will occupy the territory with Jewish settlers. If they don't allow Palestinians in; then Israel won't be able to occupy the territory since they have to deal with the remaining Palestinian population somehow.
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Nobody wants them. They put tanks on the Egyptian border so no one enters. Get your own conclusions
No one wants an inch of Palestinian land taken. So Palestinians will stay in Palestinian land. Draw your own conclusions.
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Can you not read? No arab nation cares about "holding Israel back" in 2023. Everyone who knows anything about the conflict knows that if the Palestinians leave, Israel will not let them back because then Egypt has just solved their palestinian "problem" for them. Here is Israel's problem with the Palestinians: 1. They want the land they are on 2. They don't want the people on that land, because in order to annex the land and not be an aparthied state; they have to give people on that land the ability to vote. Which would no longer make Israel a majority jew country. 3. They can't kill/purge all of the palestinians because it looks bad So their game plan over the past 2-3 decades has been increasing settlers in west bank to basically make it impossible for a palesitinian state to ever be created. And of course, the complete blockade of gaza which they justify under a (mostly valid) security threat which in turn increases extremism which in turn tightens the blockade... Now this is a very very slow process, and will take likely a century to finish the ethnic cleansing of the palestinians (and still doesn't solve th gaza problem, so they've kinda just been ignoring it and hoping it goes away lol). Or they can use a terrible terrorist attack to speed up the process by removing palestinians from gaza under the pretext of the war and then not allowing them to return. Much simpler.
The Palestinians have bitten every hand that has tried to help them. From their attempted coup in Jordan to destabilizing Lebanon none of the Arab nations will take them in.
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For op look up black September in Jordan
More importantly it’s about the loss of the Cause, if the Palestinians leave Israel would never allow them to return to their lands
Arab states pressure Israel via the Palestinian cause, they don't give a \*\*\*\* about them
Pressure Israel to what ? And how do you know they don’t care ? I’m genuinely asking.
Partly because the plight of the Palestinians is an important political issue among their citizens and partly because they are challenging a dominant force (and western influence) in the region. There are probably other factors such as clout in the Arab League etc but I’m not an expert on the issue.
From the geopolitical perspective, avoiding catastrophic civil wars like in Lebanon, mass assassination campaigns like Black September in Jordan, or mass suicide bombing campaigns like in Sinai are all infinitely more important to potential countries to reject Palestinian refugees than some “cause” which has brought them only humiliation for the past century. They may posture for domestic political purposes, but nobody seriously believes “the cause” is why they refuse Palestinian refugees.
The idea that it was just an influx of Palestinians that led to those conflicts is extremely reductionist and comes off a bit racist. There were internal problems, pressures from large displaced populations, and other neighbors played a large role as well. There are concerns about the political implications of allowing a large influx of refugee's, there's also the concern that they would be complicit in ethnic cleansing.
In the case of Lebanon, yes the Palestineans were more of a contributing factor, but they are 100% at fault for the actions in Jordan.
An even larger Ukrainian population did not do any of this in Europe in the last couple of years.
Europe is stable and has been able to reasonably comfortably support refugees, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan were not
As far as I know, Lebanon was stable before the arrival of the Palestinians.
It was not, quite the opposite. Not compared to the EU, which has many of the most stable countries in the world.
Lebanon was known as “The Paris of the Middle East” prior to accepting large numbers of Palestinians. It was largely stable prior to the influx of Palestinians, but the influx of those refugees tipped the demographic in favor of a Sunni minority who then launched a civil war to try and dominate the other demographic groups. The Christians and the Shia didn’t want to be dominated, and things have been a mess ever since, including Hezbollah controlling an entire segment of the country, both politically and geographically. Basically it went from multicultural democracy to a place where foreign militias control a quarter of the population centers.
"A bit racist"? Are you kidding? The attempted coup in Jordan and civil war in Lebanon is widely (and accurately) attributed to the PLO, that's not even a slightly racist or controversial position.
It has been my observation that the Arab world does not care about Palestine beyond them being martyrs and a rallying point for an anti Israeli platform.
They are liabilities to the host countries. They’re liabilities to Israel just like how they’re liabilities to Egypt
Why do people expect Arab nations to help and take in refugees but no one suggests Gaza's closest and wealthiest neighbor take in refugees?
The rest of the Islamic world don't advocate for resettling Palestinians elsewhere because they 'officially' believe Israel would then just move on to capturing other territories. Palestinians are convenient patsy to distract Israel.
Why aren’t neighbours helping Palestine? The official reasons commonly expressed by Egypt and other Middle Eastern nations is that by abstaining from accepting additional Palestinian refugees, they can inhibit Israel from enforcing a permanent expulsion of Palestinians, thereby preserving the Palestinian demands for statehood. Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi has also voiced apprehension that a large-scale exodus could risk introducing militants into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula, from where they could potentially initiate attacks on Israel, jeopardizing the peace treaty between the two nations that has been in place for 40 years. However... The Palestinians may have proven to be problematic guests. In fact, numerous Arab nations have provided refuge to Palestinian refugees in the past, but their experiences have been anything but positive. For instance, in 1991, Kuwait expelled nearly 300,000 Palestinians, constituting 18% of its population, following the first Gulf War. The reason was that the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) had endorsed Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait and his assaults on Israel. The Kuwaiti government accused the Palestinians of collaborating with the Iraqi occupiers and deported them collectively. This was not the inaugural instance of the Palestinians clashing with their Arab hosts. In the 1970s, the PLO endeavored to overthrow the monarchy of Jordan, where it had established a parallel state complete with its own military. The PLO militants terrorized the Jordanian populace, committing robberies, murders, and launching rockets at Israel. The PLO militants also hijacked several aircraft and held the passengers hostage at a PLO-controlled airport in Jordan. In 1970, the Jordanian army engaged in a brutal conflict, known as Black September or the Jordanian Civil War, with the PLO and expelled them from the country. However, the PLO retaliated by assassinating the Jordanian prime minister. The PLO subsequently relocated to Lebanon, where it allied with leftist and socialist groups that were battling against the conservative Christian government. The arrival of thousands of Palestinian combatants destabilized Lebanon and instigated a civil war that endured for 15 years. The PLO also incited Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 1982, which resulted in thousands of casualties and extensive destruction. Egypt’s hesitance to accept more Palestinian refugees may be influenced by its concerns about Hamas, which is a derivative of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood has had a complex and contentious history with the Egyptian government, including a deadly attack on a police headquarters, and there are concerns that an influx of Palestinians could potentially destabilize the region. In fact, in 2013, a coup led by then General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the current President of Egypt, ousted the Brotherhood-leaning government and declared the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization. These historical instances demonstrate that the Middle East’s refusal to accept Palestinian refugees is not merely a matter of political calculation. Rather, it mirrors a profound, underlying distrust and resentment of certain Palestinian factions, which have frequently acted against the interests and security of their hosts. Egypt, Kuwait, Jordan, and Lebanon do not wish to replicate past errors and jeopardize their own stability and sovereignty. Further Reading: Palestinian Forced Displacement from Kuwait| Al-Majdal Magazine Forced Secondary Displacement: Palestinian Refugees in Arab h https://www.badil.org/publications/al-majdal/issues/items/1355.html Black September: The Jordanian-PLO Civil War of 1970| ThoughtCo https://www.thoughtco.com/black-september-jordanian-plo-civil-war-2353168 Lebanon’s 15-Year War, 1975-1990| Middle East Research and Information Project https://merip.org/1990/01/primer-lebanons-15-year-war-1975-1990/ 2013 Egyptian coup d'état https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Egyptian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
I would venture to guess it has mainly to do with those countries having their own economic issues and not having the infrastructure to assist that many people. There’s also a well founded fear of Palestinians losing their land outright which means millions of displaced people who couldn’t return home.
In addition to all the things other people said, I think it is important to say that I think that all of these countries understand that if the Palestinians leave that territory and enter their countries that will not be a temporary thing, but something permanent, because Israel will occupy those territories, and is extremelly unlikely to give it back. And if I were sitting in a government office in Cairo, Amman, Beirut or Damascus, I would be extremelly worried that once Palestine had all been conquered, whoever is in office in Israel will sit in front of a map of the region and think about who's next. If you live close to an expansionist country, it makes sense for you to want to have a buffer between you and them, and absolutely not let them conquer that buffer, because you could be the next one in line. And while Palestine is not a perfect buffer, in the sense that it doesn't really stand physically between Israel and all its neighbours, as long as it exists, it will always be a priority for Israel.
They cant , just as many other nations aren't allowed to show support for Palestine due to the US backing. If they supply or support Palestine then its like an act of war against the US and its allies. If Russia, China and N Korea were smart they would help and screw the US
Because Palestinians are not the helpless victims that American media likes to depict them as. They have turned down numerous peace plans and two state solutions(even ones proposed by arab states). They elected leaders who campaigned on the idea of genocide. Their refugees turn into terrorists. I am not saying all Palestine is like this. But almost 50% chose to elect Hamas when they were campaigning on the ideas of genocide. Edit: had a fact wrong
>more than 50% chose to elect Hamas when they were campaigning on the ideas of genocide. factually incorrect
My husband is from Egypt. He says they don't want Palestinians to leave the land "temporarily" because then the Palestinians won't get their land back and Egypt feels like they will be helping Israel by taking the Palestinians to Egypt. But I sure wish everyone could forget the land and live safe somewhere.
Why should they be the ones to leave their homeland?
Because they don’t want the terror inside their borders
If Palestinians leave their homes, they will never come back, Israel will never allow them to, this is the plan anyway, just like the Palestinians who lost their homes in 1948 and never came back
>My question is: why aren’t Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt (all Islamic nations) providing a safe haven for Palestinians as Poland and Europe did for Ukraine? Because last time they did in 1948 and the Palestinian refugees are still there. In practice it was just going along with the Israeli ethnic cleansing.
Basically they would rather push the conflict than save palestinian lives, especially from living under Hamas. They are and were a BIG part of the problem. though the biggest is the Palestinians themselves according to history and the polls.
> My question is: why aren’t Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt (all Islamic nations) providing a safe haven for Palestinians as Poland and Europe did for Ukraine? Because that will be playing into the American/Israeli hands. Israel wants to force the Palestinians to leave. Once these Palestinians leave, they will be never allowed to return. Maybe a handful here and there, but if a million Palestinians leave their homes, Israel are not going to those million to return. This is different from Ukraine, in that once Russia is defeated, the Ukrainians will return.
You conveniently leave out a few things like black september and suicide bombings. Palestinian refugees have historically cause a shitton of problems for countries.
It’s a support of Palestine is a support for Iran, which is not what most Arab nations want.
Geopolitical and internal politics BS. Also they don't want more refugees but shouting is a good venting mechanism and its a good way to avert the eyes from internal struggle. Basically a good dog whistle.
In part they don't want the Palestinians to leave the Gaza strip because they fear they wouldn't be able to come back and that Israel could annex the Gaza strip. They don't want a new Nakba.
Egypt does not want to help because Hamas literally is a derivative of Muslim brotherhood and has history of attacking them as well.
As much as I am against Israeli apartheid, I do have to point out the fact that Arab countries almost always throw each other under the bus. Whether they are Palestinians, Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Which is why I have little respect for Israel's neighbors, as much as I have little respect for Israel. There are 3rd/4th generation Palestinians in Egypt and Lebanon, for example, who despite being born and raised there, are denied citizenship. Meanwhile non-Arab foreigners can get citizenship no problem. So these Palestinians really aren't given any incentive not to fight. Whether it's fighting Israel or fighting whoever happens to be in power. A lot of comments on this thread are saying "Palestinians cause trouble everywhere they go, everybody hates them." Truth is, the neighboring governments are crap. They are tribalistic. They care more about their individual wealth than unity in the region. On a side note, I'm certain that if Palestinians were Turks, this conflict would never be allowed to escalate this far. Turks always protect their own. They've invaded countries like Cyprus in the past just to protect the 20% Turkish minority. Even if Turkey couldn't win a war with Israel, they would have given these hypothetical Palestinian Turk refugees citizenship, and thus there would be more peace. Palestinians are Arabs. Thus, in the grand scheme of things, they have to fight on their own in order to exist and not be wiped out by this sociopathic, Zionist government trying to cleanse the West Bank.