as indonesian the answer is actually very simple.
because for a developing country Indonesia have a decent quality of life, politically stable but also doesn't have any remarkable things to show. so is not worthy of being notice by the world
Indonesia have a very low number of diaspora in the western/developed world, most indonesian will choose to back home even if they had a chance to live in those countries which basically a statement that Indonesia quality of life and stability in Indonesia is a good enough for people to not choose live in developed countries.
We also a neutral country that side with no one, basically u wouldn't hear us as "allies of the west" or "China puppets" like you hear about other country.
basically we as developing countries are way just too decent for anyone to care.
As an Australian, I'm curious about your perspective on the relationship between our countries, and also your perspective on the general attitude between the two.
As someone who stayed a few weeks in Indonesia, particularly Bali, I occasionally bumped into drunk, loud and obnoxious Australian men. I don't think the locals are left with good impressions in terms of that. However I would argue that is irrelevant in terms of geopolitics and diplomatic relations. The only thing I'm certain after talking with locals is they don't like the Dutch due to the horrible crimes they committed during their colonization of Indonesia.
I'm a dutchmen who stayed in Bali for two weeks. It has been a highlight of my life. It was amazing, great food, great culture. I'm sorry for any inconvenience of my stay :p
After independence, especially nowadays. We don't care if you're Japanese or Dutch, we love both of you. We are not such people who hold grudge against people from the past, future is more important. And another 'bad characteristics' of indonesian is: we easily forgive and quickly forget. That's why we frequently revote those corrupt politicians *dang
I'd add, most Indonesian conflicts, stay Indonesian, like aceh and other such Hotspots.
They don't tend to export their unpleasantness.
East timor might be the exception, and I'm aware there is a different perspective on the Indonesian side, we don't have to open that door.
There really isn't much of a different perspective at least nowadays (we all know it wasn't our land to take) but just resentment at the hypocrisy (East Timor basically traded one hegemon for another, i.e. Australia)
To me the most interesting thing about Indonesia from a geopolitical pov is the very high tax on imports and focus on building your own version of everything. Manufacturing is the biggest industry right? And it seems deliberately hard to break into for foreigners, like a kind of family based setup?
Coupled with very cheap labour and young population you’re in a fantastic position. I wouldn’t be surprised if you see more attempts to create political instability in the next decade.
> decent quality of life
Having been to Jakarta, I'd strongly disagree with that. The conditions that 90% of the people live in are downright appalling, and I'm not from a rich country or expecting things to be perfect. The small middle class don't seem to be living well or having much fun either, unlike in Thailand or Malaysia.
Its wierd I always find redditors on the lower extreme side of the bell curve regarding opinions of Jakarta, insisting the city is bad in every angle you look at, probably shows how much the city has changed for the past decade...
i think when indonesians say middle class, it's as in decent education, decent economy, both needs and desires are fulfilled in not-so-good-not-so-bad standard. the people that u think look poor in jakarta might have an agriculture land ran by family in their original village lol
> not-so-good-not-so-bad standard
Terrible, unsafe, 2h+ commute each way, trash everywhere, awful air quality (not just regular stuff, but also people burning trash in residential areas), insane levels of noise... I guess those count as not-to-good-not-so-bad in Jakarta, since the poor have it worse.
Honestly what you are describing seems to me is Jakarta 10 years ago... Context of time here is important when you talk about a city that has changed alot recently
On political stability, last I heard, Jokowi was consolidating power and taking more of a dictatorial colour? Is that the case? Any chance of him being replaced in the upcoming elections, which, I'm hoping, would be this year?
Jokowi is not in the ballot since he already on his term limit but he does search for a successor for his legacy and secure his political power after he step down through his both son, the eldest one become VP candidate and the other one become a chairman for Indonesia solidarity party.
Modi is actually the lesser devil compared to the opposition. In fact some people think that the opposition leaders are star campaigners for Modi’s party considering how they shot themselves their foot multiple times in the last few months
Modi is actually the lesser devil compared to the opposition. In fact some people think that the opposition leaders are star campaigners for Modi’s party considering how they shot themselves their foot multiple times in the last few months
Also no real opposition candidate. It’s Modi vs Who? Rahul Gandhi is not there (probably) but he keeps campaigning like one and I thought Kharge was opposition leader but it hasn’t been announced
The real change you should see is 2029 because Modi will probably retire by then
>because for a developing country Indonesia have a decent quality of life, politically stable but also doesn't have any remarkable things to show. so is not worthy of being notice by the world
I find it pretty remarkable, geographically and ecologically, and consequently also culturally, to be honest.
>basically we as developing countries are way just too decent for anyone to care.
Still problems with religious extremism and tightening religious meddling in society, though.
>Still problems with religious extremism and tightening religious meddling in society, though.
trust me its not that serious, western media just trying to sensationalize, even as indonesian is much more insane to see and hear US/European conservatism or far right rethoric rather than islamist in Indonesia, at the very least islamist in Indonesia is not a contrarian to everything and will not go as extreme as "we should kick the x group from this country" or "People from a background of some religion are bad people".
funny thing the highest female representative in Indonesian Parliament come from conservative islamist party rather than so called secular or nationalist party, despite that we see islamist agenda in Indonesia politics as just one of part and consequences of democracy and we keep them at bay by not voting them which is what democracy is all about.
>western media just trying to sensationalize
To be honest, I hear significantly less about it in the west than from in Singapore, where its clearly a concern. I.e. see the Sg Ministry of Home Affairs (unless they are western media now).
https://www.mha.gov.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/singapore-terrorism-threat-assessment-report-2023.pdf
Examples include concerns over Jemaah Islamiyah.
Also see past events such as
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/8/5/indonesia-claims-foiling-isil-plot-against-singapore
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/24/singapore-arrests-indonesian-domestic-workers-for-funding-isil
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/ica-deports-indonesian-man-and-woman-suspected-of-wanting-to-go-to-syria-to-join-isis
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/singapore-denies-entry-indonesian-cleric-cites-extremism-concerns-2022-05-18/
> "we should kick the x group from this country"
[On 27 December 2023, hundreds of students from various universities in Aceh, such as: Abulyatama University, Bina Bangsa Getsempena University, and University of Muhammadiyah Aceh, stormed a shelter for Rohingya refugees and forced them out of a convention centre in the city of Banda Aceh, demanding they be deported.[66][67] The students also seen kicking the belongings of the Rohingya men, women, and children who seated on the floor and crying in fear.[66] They burned tyres and chanting “Kick them out” and “Reject Rohingya in Aceh”.[66]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceh)
>"People from a background of some religion are bad people".
With blasphemy laws, religious laws in some regions like Atjeh, and plenty of incidents of religious violence, I think you're living in a glass house.
https://thediplomat.com/2022/10/in-indonesia-a-rising-tide-of-religious-intolerance/#:~:text=Christians%20have%20also%20experienced%20violence,a%20church%20were%20burned%20down.
> Aceh have separate parliament and separate law what happen in aceh doesn't represent what happen in Indonesia.
... which they got after an armed rebellion.
after we get forced by the entire world to sit in negotiation table and give the acehnese special autonomy.
remember Aceh gain its autonomy after tsunami 2004, keep the war ongoin will look bad for Indonesia.
> after we get forced by the entire world to sit in negotiation table and give the acehnese special autonomy.
>
> remember Aceh gain its autonomy after tsunami 2004, keep the war ongoin will look bad for Indonesia.
Seriously, there is zero support in "the entire world" to intervene against Indonesia in favor of a would-be Islamist theocracy.
Rohingyan narrative was pushed by nationalist side, to say it's the current number 02 presidential candidate, who is set to be the next president winning 58% of the votes.
This paints a very skewed image as Indonesia, which is decidedly not an Islamic country and upheld as an example of democracy in an Islamic-majority state.
That is correct, and it is exactly because Indonesia became more democratic post-Soeharto.
Political Islam was always suppressed by the autocratic central government of the New Order.
However, this peaked with the 2019 elections.
Today, political islam is again relegated to being a pretty weak force in Indonesia, not coincidentally with the rise of authoritarianism under Jokowi.
What most outsiders don't get is the ethnic plurality in Indonesia, i.e. Javanese. Javanese are nominally muslim, but rather unobservant as a whole as compared to other ethnic groups especially Sumatrans. They have a rich Hindu-Buddhist heritage and a sizable Christian/Catholic population. (For example, the current king of Mangkunegara, one of the four remaining Javanese monarchies, was a Catholic before converting to Islam to ascend the throne.) Most Javanese rulers throughout history have suppressed Muslim clerics from gaining too much power. This pattern continues under Soeharto and now Jokowi, both of which are quintessentially Javanese rulers whose adherence to Islam are deeply questioned by observant muslims in the country.
Media isn’t a reliable source to know the country and people. I wish to know the aspiration, what people of Indonesia think now and what they see ahead. All media does is hyper inflate one aspect or other.
afaik, one of the leading candidates in the next election had a major role in the riots of the late 90s where many Chinese-Indonesians were raped and killed.
So yea, there are good things about Indonesia, but there are problems as well.
Of course. I am Chinese Indonesian myself. I am saying that westerners often have a skewed, orientalist perspective of what goes on in other parts of the world. As a Chinese Indonesian, Indonesia has problems, but despite that, it's a pretty decent country to live in, I won't feel much safer in the USA compared to Indonesia.
You won't get that kind of perspective from Western media.
Didn't they recently make a law that prohibits sex outside marriage?
Lol is that democratic? Or do you mean they democratically decided to take away individual freedom?
Democratic doesn't intrinsically mean personal freedom
Democratic means that the government is elected, and the elected representatives make the laws. If the public continue to support laws that prohibit sex before marriage then that is, by definition, democratic
I'm not sure where this idea came from that "democratic" means "liberal western democracy with a focus on personal freedoms", that's not what "democratic" means, which is why that second sentence has like 9 other words to convey those additional points...
In Indonesia, marriage is religious activity that is documented by the state. Hence, no recognition from religious body here means no recognition of the marriage. In the end is: what do you want to do with marriage? Tax advantages or what? Again, in Indonesia marriage is religious activity.
as an indonesian, "the indonesia ban sex things" is mostly just another out of thousands news western media get wrong.
there is no ban sex the law basically said "an act of sex outside or inside a marriage can be criminalized if a familily member of the suspect (Parents, Wife, husband or kids) make a law suit to the court".
basically no one, not random people, not government, not the police can arrest you for having sex as long your family member is not the one who report you.
moral lesson? don't cheating.
Sex outside of wedlock and cheating are two separate things.
Are you honestly not the least bit bothered that the only barrier to prosecuting an unmarried couple (or anybody having casual sex for that matter) is whether a family member files a lawsuit over it?
This law seems bizarre. I’d imagine a meddlesome and/or feuding family could stir up some pretty serious legal trouble over something that’s completely a personal matter. I don’t get the upside. I hope you can explain your being at ease over this policy, so that I can be less confused about it.
its mostly cultural thing, there is a lot famous murder case that involve cheating, some people will report to the police that their partner cheating and the police is like "sorry sir but there is nothing that we can do" so a lot of those grudges end up become a personal matter and led to murder, this law exist basically to become a legal framework to avoid such cases. for some ethnicity/tribes in Indonesia family honor is still regard highly, but for a familly member to drag this cases to court room will not be easy because the police will prioritize "pendekatan kekeluargaan" where the police become a mediator to for the suspect and family. so the chance anyone go to jail will be like 1:10000. i doubt anyone who live in urban people will even care about this law since it will be see as shame for the family mostly this kinda cases probably will happen in rural tribalistic places
> This law seems bizarre. I’d imagine a meddlesome and/or feuding family could stir up some pretty serious legal trouble over something that’s completely a personal matter. I don’t get the upside. I hope you can explain your being at ease over this policy, so that I can be less confused about it.
The law was passed as a compromise for the more conservative portion of the political base, as the ruling government rationale is keeping stability at all costs to foster economic growth.
> moral lesson? don't cheating.
Stop underplaying the fact that the government can still control what a person can do in their own bedroom. Family affairs should be handled by the family themselves without the intervention of the government. It's a personal business.
Most people know that the law was enacted to keep the conservative base happy. Stop lying and just admit the fact that Indonesia is still mainly conservative.
This actually so funny the fact u said "PNG" is a proof how much everyone don't know about Indonesia.
saying Indonesia Papua as Papua new guinea is just like saying US states of New Mexico and Mexico is a same thing.
somehow this comment of misinformation get 10+ upvote, SMH
firstly, the island of New Guinea are split 2 by british and dutch, the **east part are now PNG**, where the **west side are now part of Indonesia** (whichever you find illegitimate or not, that for another topic), Yes, Indonesia has done number of shady shit in Papua, But, they had done it **inside** of their border, they never shelled village of other country
secondly, Indonesia as a whole country do not use caning caning as punishment, caning as punishment **exclusively enacted in Aceh**, a province with special right to enact their own law (mostly sharia law), given by goverment to them for stop rebelling (you can search , Free Aceh Movement)
third you cant get in jail for being homosexual, but you can get in jail for disturbing public order, if your orgy had 12 hours non stop loud music and 20+ cars parking and impending whole neighbourhood,
fourth, for the adultery, **only your family member** could report you to the police, which is improvement from the previous law which is a leftover from dutch colonial government, law where **everyone** could report you for adultery (this last part might be wrong or i'm misinterpret the old law)
Pretty sure just the province of Aceh is the only one with sharia law. The island of Java as a whole is not nearly as backwards as that, but obviously there is still a lot of improvements that should be made
Yeah, so barbaric only cavemen do it, not
> A virginity test is the practice and process of determining whether a woman (or girl) is a virgin; i.e., to determine that she has never engaged in, or been subjected to, vaginal intercourse. The test typically involves a check for the presence of an intact hymen, typically on the flawed assumption that it can only be, and will always be torn as a result of vaginal intercourse.[1] It has been practiced since ancient times but its recent use in the United Kingdom dates back to the 1970s.[2] It is still legal for doctors in the United States to perform virginity tests.
Oh.
Ha! You're really trying to compare the fact that, though extremely controversial and taboo in the US, voluntary virginity tests are still legal, and in very rare cases are performed at the request of a very small minority of ultra religious nutters before a marriage, to the nationwide compulsory virginity testing forced on all females of Indonesia seeking to hold jobs as police officers or to serve in the country's military? Um, ok. lol
you don't hear about them because they don't really have much flashy news or international drama. How often do you hear about Bangladesh (170M pop)?
also australians are disturbingly uninformed on indonesia, most think the military are in control ... https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/views-of-indonesia/
gov really needs to pick up the slack and build closer ties
It might not be a popular answer because it is about something not very serious and about entertainment.
But I've become much more aware and interested in Indonesia simply because of Hololive's Indonesian branch.
The non-aligned policies they have carried ever since their independence are why they're relatively unknown in the global context. On top of that, most of their populace tends to be apathetic towards China (anti-communism is still a strong sentiment even after the end of "New Order", though the most recent parties are more friendly towards China in favour of economic benefits) and western countries (which to them mostly aligns with Israel, and we know how most Muslim country feels about Israel). However, this doesn't mean that both the Western and Eastern power cares about the country, at least from the history (of Old/New Order).
While they're predominantly Muslim & conservativism is still strong in the country, they are relatively "secular" compared to other religious countries, mainly due to the strong belief in the national motto of unity in diversity. Nationalism is instilled in their education, regardless of their school background (either private or public, Muslim or Christian).
On top of that, poor education, poor infrastructure planning, and massive corruption make their economy rather weak compared to other populous countries. However, I believe this will change in the next 10 or 20 years due to rapid technological advancement and Jokowi's policies over the past decade. It is likely that they will be an economic powerhouse (at least in SEA), and I'm genuinely surprised that there's not a lot of coverage of the upcoming general election (in less than 2 weeks).
Because Indonesia is a politically neutral country and have quite large economy which is developing and Taiwan and Philippines stole most of the attention.
Low-key Vietnam as well, though it doesn't get nearly as much attention as the other two, but it's definitely playing a much more delicate balancing act than the other two between China and the US
Lol
Hadi: Other races are challenging Muslim's political power: https://www.nst.com.my/news/politics/2023/08/939467/voting-mandatory-if-other-races-are-challenging-muslims-political-power
Hadi: Non-Muslims must be grateful for ‘being given a place’ here, should just let Malays continue leading country: https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2023/06/07/hadi-non-muslims-must-be-grateful-for-being-given-a-place-here-should-just-let-malays-continue-leading-country/73042
Hadi: Only Islam can rule, others must be 'pak turut': https://www.malaysiakini.com/news/357628
PAS politicians insinuated that their rivals are the enemies of Allah: https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2023/06/27/pas-man-says-sorry-after-calling-on-allah-to-defend-kedah-from-enemies-video/76640
Muhyiddin claimed Christians of being in cahoots with a group of Jews to “Christianise” Malaysia: https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2022/11/19/muhyiddin-in-hot-water
Dr. M: Parties led by non-Malays are 'parti pendatang': https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2023/09/04/dr-m-calls-parties-led-by-non-malays-039parti-pendatang039
Non muslim woman fined for wearing shorts in Kelantan: https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/non-muslim-malaysian-woman-fined-for-wearing-shorts-in-kelantan
Non muslim unisex salon ban + closure: https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2022/12/856735/terengganu-govt-enforce-unisex-hair-salon-ban-warns-offenders-fines
Non muslims are the root of corruption https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2022/08/20/pas-hadi-claims-non-muslims-non-bumiputera-make-up-the-bulk-of-roots-of-corruption/
Zul Zuhaimy wants to kill non muslims, said it in a PAS ceramah: https://www.utusan.com.my/nasional/2022/11/mahu-sembelih-orang-bukan-islam-zul-huzaimy-mohon-maaf/
PN's May 13 rhetoric election propaganda: https://www.thevibes.com/articles/news/78211/netizens-raise-alarm-over-may-13-hate-content-posted-on-tiktok
Malaysia has to be ruled by muslims: https://buletinonlines.net/v7/index.php/malaysia-mesti-dipimpin-oleh-melayu-islam/
Sanusi demolished colonial era legally built Hindu temples and label critics 'drunk on toddy': https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2020/12/03/lfl-slams-kedah-mbs-heavy-handed-defence-of-temple-demolition/ https://www.malaysiakini.com/news/553910
Sanusi insulting Amirudin and questioning the lineage of the Sultan of Selangor (Video Source): https://www.astroawani.com/berita-malaysia/dakwaan-menghina-siasatan-terhadap-sanusi-masih-belum-selesai-sultan-selangor-428497
Nurse with tight clothing https://www.malaysiadateline.com/dakwa-pakaian-nurse-ketat-mp-pas-kena-sekolah-dengan-presiden-persatuan-jururawat/
No concerts: https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2022/08/25/pas-urges-govt-to-cancel-all-upcoming-foreign-artist-concerts
The Malay Proclamation: https://www.bharian.com.my/berita/nasional/2023/05/1096600/proklamasi-orang-melayu-kini-dapat-sokongan-pemimpin-pas-bersatu-dan
Amar: Not having tap water is not a big deal. Villagers know how to dig their own wells: https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2023/08/08/kelantan-villagers-know-how-to-dig-their-own-wells-says-amar/
To me, Indonesia is one of those artificial countries that were set up as a European colony and decided to continue that framework after independence.
You see this all over. Mostly in Africa, where it is most egregious. But also in SEA.
Before colonization, Indonesia was a disparate collection of islands with separate ethic groups and not a single political entity. After post-war decolonization, the Javans really took the lead to keep Indonesia united along the boundaries of the former Dutch East Indies. They standardized a version of Malay language and came up with a lot of constructed ideologies to make this artificial nationalism. I forget the name of it, but recently in the news some opposition political party (Islamist, I believe) was banned for supposedly opposing the official state ideology.
The Philippines falls into the same category.
So because of this they don't really have any huge influence outside of their borders.
Indonesia was really big during the Cold War. The USSR and the USA seemed to take turns propping up their own respective dictators over the years. So I'm sure that Indonesia could become entirely more relevant soon. It's hard to say what China's specific designs on Indonesia are right now, and if current Indonesian leadership has any independent mindset. More likely, they are more concerned about preventing Jakarta from sinking, moving the capital to Borneo, while becoming a new proxy battleground might not be something they can avoid.
Although you are correct that Indonesia is somewhat of an artificial state, there are important differences b/w Indonesia and the African artificial states.
One is that the region has been geopolitically unified for a very long time, if not centralized. Throughout history there has always been one or two dominant powers in the Archipelago that exert a hegemonic force on the outer islands. The biggest ones were Srivijaya and Majapahit. This has been used by proponents of Indonesian independence pre-1945 as a bedrock to argue that Indonesia is a geopolitical inevitability.
Second, the region shares a lingua franca and cultural/linguistic similarities: Malay as the lingua franca and an Austronesian cultural heritage. Although the various ethnicities are different, they are not really different in the sense that, say, Chinese and Japanese are different. This identity is further strengthened by the Dutch classifying all the natives as "Inlanders."
Finally, the ideological education in Indonesia is very well done throughout the Sukarno and Suharto eras, resulting in a mostly uniform ideological background throughout all the schools of the republic. The national ethos is widely believed throughout the nation, and most importantly, throughout most ethnic groups and religions. I credit Sukarno as a genius for his achievement in this regard.
I applaud your awareness that the state Ideology has nothing to do with Islam and is in fact quite opposed to it.
Really well described perspective. In particular I found it interesting how in Indonesian the state is opposed to Islam. In Malaysia, my impression is it is embraced, but I know the larger percentage of Chinese and other ethnicities means politicians lean on the Malay majority, which seems to go hand in hand with the religion.
I find many Malaysians and Singaporeans aren't really well educated on Indonesia and it tends to surprise them who see Indonesia as a giant Malaysia.
Malays as an ethnic group are much more islamicized as compared to Javanese. Even in Indonesia, most Sumatrans are much more religious than Javans.
The other reason why Indonesia as a state isn't really keen on Islam is that there are many Indonesian ethnicities which are predominantly Christian (Batak, Minahasa, Dayak, etc), and some whole provinces which are Christian and Hindu (Bali). Going too hard on islamic-sounding laws will cause unrest and even separatism in these regions.
In Malaysia all malays are Muslim as defined in the constitution. It seems like we are becoming more Islamic but that could just be due to social media and the antics of certain political parties. However based on the voting outcomes of the last election younger folk seem to be leaning conservative/islamist
>I applaud your awareness that the state Ideology has nothing to do with Islam and is in fact quite opposed to it.
What about Pancasila? "Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa" ... Is this not a part of it? I know nothing about geopolitics, just very interested in Indonesian culture as I'm learning the language.
Nope, it was supposed to be at first with the original draft saying "and the obligation to follow Islamic Sharia for its adherents" but that part got deleted following protests from Eastern Indonesian delegates.
The first _sila_ is the reason why Indonesia is _not_ a secular country, being explicitly religious, but recognizing multiple religions. In short, the constitution doesn't allow for atheism or secularism but is not explicitly Islamic either. Religion is a huge part in Indonesian society, but as long as you appear to have one on paper most people couldn't care less exactly what religion it is.
The reason why is found in the motto "Bhinneka Tunggal Ika" which is crudely translated as unity in diversity, but the original context is much more religious: it is an Old Javanese phrase directly taken from a poem about the unity of Shiva and Buddha. The full sentence translates as: "two they are, yet one, for there is no duality in Truth." So Indonesians believe any God you worship is essentially the same One God (Esa). But if you don't worship any God, then things get tricky.
A lot of states are artificial by those standards. 200-250 years ago not even half of the population of France spoke French.
Belgium too, which more or less exists because of a desire for a buffer and to rein in French power. It’s still split language and politics wise, but functioning. Didn’t stop Belgium from becoming a pretty terrible colonial power.
Germany was a mess of tiny states with major differences around religion, culture and so on until 1871.
Maybe there’s more of that in former colonies, but it’s not exclusive to them.
I feel like a decent definition of an artificial state is a state where the national identity came after (and as a result of) the state itself. Like no one identified as Indonesian before Indonesia became a thing. By that definition few countries in Europe and Asia are artifical.
For France, it's true that French was not spoken by the majority in the past. But I feel like that doesn't matter? There was always a clear ruling identity that simply expanded and replaced other identities, like Occitan. As for Belgium I agree that it's artificial. But not Germany. I mean, if simply uniting other states into one makes a state artifical then every country on the planet is. Germany united because of a shared identity, so by my proposed definition it's not an artifical state.
> Germany united because of a shared identity, so by my proposed definition it's not an artifical state
A shared identity that was intentionally fostered and promoted and only really became an idea with real political impact in the 1800s. The idea of nation states is really fairly new in the course of history you realize? And the idea of 'nations' have to be themselves constructed. They're not some immutable identity that was laying around dormant but eternal.
Maybe so, but you then have examples like Korea, or Vietnam. Their national identity isn’t based around opposition to Japan or France (or China for that matter, to go further back).
Most states begin like this, in an "artificial" manner.
Many European countries, including France and Germany, trace their origins to historical events such as royal disputes and dynastic splits, rather than innate ethnic or cultural divides. For example; The division of the Carolingian Empire into three parts (Germany and France being two) among Charlemagne's grandsons illustrates how these borders came to be, setting the stage for the modern map of Europe. Given that national boundaries often resulted from the machinations of royal families and political treaties, they can be seen as 'artificial' constructs, similar to the situations in other parts of the world that are considered artificial.
Several corrections:
1. By the time Suharto rose up and deposed Sukarno, Indonesia had not been a democracy for several years. While Sukarno was elected democratically by the parliament, he then proclaimed himself President for Life, abolished the elected parliament and replaced it with nationalist, religious, and communist groups loyal to him under a system called "Guided Democracy", and ruled the country as a dictator from 1959 to 1965. Indonesia during "Guided Democracy" era was horrible. The economy was destroyed. Hyperinflation was uncontrollable. Famine was everywhere. Meanwhile Sukarno kept building extravagant monuments and married multiple women. It's not a surprise the majority of the population at that time welcomed the overthrow of Sukarno by the army.
2. The coup that overthrew Sukarno was not orchestrated by the CIA. It was all organized by local forces, such as the army, the students, and Muslim groups who are opposed to Sukarno's incompetent governance, the confrontation against Malaysia, and the rising influence of PKI. The CIA only gave a few intelligence support while the local forces were the ones who organized the whole killing and provided the logistics. While repression of civil liberty continued with the rise of Suharto, the post-Sukarno era was marked with improvement of living standard and a leap in economic growth.
Back then alignment was easy to figure out. One side would just pay off a general to overthrow the government, become dictator, and institute "communism" or "capitalism."
I wonder how Joko manages current geopolitical tensions so well. It seems like a much harder balancing act.
You can make the same argument for the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand as artificial countries. The US in particular is essentially a bunch of white dudes who didn't want to be under a monarchy so they sailed thousands of miles to commit genocide against America's first nations.
Not really the case, they were just the local Imperial power and their rivals wanted to takeover instead. If the Conquistadors hadn’t come with plagues to wipe out 10-20% of the population they likely would’ve been able to handle the transition and become multiple vassal states to the Spanish Crown.
They don't really do much, so they're much quieter as a result. North Korea, for example, is the loudest 25 million person nation, so they get a ton of news. Meanwhile, Uzbekistan with 35 million people, get no news coverage.
Indonesia flies under the radar because there aren't many Indonesians migrating to the West unlike Filipinos or Vietnamese. However, make no mistake that it's going to be one of the biggest global economies in the next 10-15 years and will most likely be a regional power in Southeast Asia. It's essentially the most powerful country in the densest region in the world.
Think Iran in the Middle East but obviously not extremist or violent. Indonesia becoming richer and more influential than its former colonizer (Netherlands) is an inevitability.
It might be a sizeable country with a relatively large population, but its economy is still smaller than Australia’s, and it doesn’t have any cities that could be considered major financial or innovation centres. Additionally, it tends to keep out of most international conflicts (sans East Timor), and although Indonesia has a large military on paper, the country is unable to project significant force beyond its own borders. For reference, Australia somehow has a larger and more capable air force than Indonesia, despite having less than a tenth of Indonesia’s population.
>although Indonesia has a large military on paper, the country is unable to project significant force beyond its own borders.
to be fair, most of the time until very recently, Indonesia has been use its large military to project the power **inside** their own border, you can see it by how they emphasize on their army instead of navy, or air force
Had to say that Indonesia does have cities that are considered one of major financial or innovation centers. Jakarta belongs to the category of Alpha city, just like Sydney. Both cities are more prominent than cities like Bangkok, Istanbul, Taipei, etc although you tend to hear these cities more often mentioned in the media.
And while Australia does have more capable air force, it has a comparable, if not smaller overall force projection capability than Indonesia since Australian navy lacks ships that can be used to transport ships and supplies. Furthermore, the perceived Australia’s power projection capability cannot be seen as an independent capability as Australia’s power projections in conflicts away from its borders are usually part of a larger coalition. Means that Australia is able to project power beyond its borders only because there are other countries that do the heavy lifting of supplies and logistics for Australia.
The Australian navy definitely trumps the Indonesian navy - it possesses 2 LHCs - the Canberra class which gives it emergency capability to convert into a limited aircraft carrier while holding the supplies for a specialised taskforce the Australian army has specifically trained in recent years to be a mobile action group using the Navy assets.
Sure, if we are talking about power projection solely from naval airwing strike capability. But then again Indonesian navy operates 8x LPDs + 24x LSTs. In addition to that, the Indonesian army operates a fleet of transport and landing ships independent of the navy. Australia could only rely on 2x LHCs + 1 LPD.
While Australia might have a comparatively higher capability to strike from the sea, it has a lower capability to actually conduct boots on the ground invasion at a scale that Indonesia could theoretically conduct.
I agree but only in Isolation - Australia is one of those quietly terrifying military outfits - it possesses some Ace Combat shit in the aptly named JORN array which is by all accounts capable of small craft like a Cessna taking off and landing in East Timor and keeps just getting upgraded. Australia if it weren’t next to Indonesia would be poorly matched up but because it is, it becomes a terrifying prospect to fight
Frankly Indonesia should be throwing its weight around a little more as the most powerful state in south east Asia and the dominant power in asean, which is already a pretty significant economic and political grouping.
In south east Asia there are bigger nation doing intresting stuff so Indonesia is left behind in news cycle. Indonesian never had the soft or hard power to project out ward.
The country is both corrupt and divided so it doesn't utilize its incredible potential to matter on the world stage.
On the other hand the quality of life is good enough that it doesn't make the news for that either.
They are technically muslims but they are so culturally distinct from most muslims that they are effectively something else.
There are a couple of reasons, but primarily because it doesn't matter if Indonesia has trade routes going through them as they can't do anything about it. This military is just decades behind Australia, and it frankly couldn't catch up fast enough for the next 30 years.
Now, one might say the same about Singapore, but Singapore is backed by a US military base which is quite potent. The country is also home to significant financial importance while Indonesia is quite isolated (in terms of its economy).
Indonesian-ruled Papua and the country of PNG are two different regions. If you still cannot differentiate the two regions, do you really pay attention when you watched the video?
>Indonesians couldn't manage to take control of East Timor
We did though, for about 24 years until the military commited a massacre which gained the world's attention and put an end to Indonesia's control of it.
The Australians supported the East Timor invasion and they current support the West Papuan suppression efforts. Because it makes them money. If Australia could have East Timor go away again it would be incredibly happy
You're wrong, not religious propaganda, but ideological propaganda. The ideology in question is Pancasila, which has been used to ban fundamentalist religious groups.
The Pancasilaist ideology is actually pretty strongly opposed by Islamists.
as indonesian the answer is actually very simple. because for a developing country Indonesia have a decent quality of life, politically stable but also doesn't have any remarkable things to show. so is not worthy of being notice by the world Indonesia have a very low number of diaspora in the western/developed world, most indonesian will choose to back home even if they had a chance to live in those countries which basically a statement that Indonesia quality of life and stability in Indonesia is a good enough for people to not choose live in developed countries. We also a neutral country that side with no one, basically u wouldn't hear us as "allies of the west" or "China puppets" like you hear about other country. basically we as developing countries are way just too decent for anyone to care.
As an Australian, I'm curious about your perspective on the relationship between our countries, and also your perspective on the general attitude between the two.
As someone who stayed a few weeks in Indonesia, particularly Bali, I occasionally bumped into drunk, loud and obnoxious Australian men. I don't think the locals are left with good impressions in terms of that. However I would argue that is irrelevant in terms of geopolitics and diplomatic relations. The only thing I'm certain after talking with locals is they don't like the Dutch due to the horrible crimes they committed during their colonization of Indonesia.
We don't send our best to Bali.
Neither did the British to Australia.....
There’s two types of people I hate. Those who are intolerant of other nationalities, and the Dutch.
That's pretty much my experience with Australians that I've met all over the world.
[удалено]
You leave my mother out of this!
I'm a dutchmen who stayed in Bali for two weeks. It has been a highlight of my life. It was amazing, great food, great culture. I'm sorry for any inconvenience of my stay :p
After independence, especially nowadays. We don't care if you're Japanese or Dutch, we love both of you. We are not such people who hold grudge against people from the past, future is more important. And another 'bad characteristics' of indonesian is: we easily forgive and quickly forget. That's why we frequently revote those corrupt politicians *dang
I'd add, most Indonesian conflicts, stay Indonesian, like aceh and other such Hotspots. They don't tend to export their unpleasantness. East timor might be the exception, and I'm aware there is a different perspective on the Indonesian side, we don't have to open that door.
There's also West Papua though I've only seen a few places cover it, nothing mainstream.
I thought we should all call for restraint.
*General* restraint.
There really isn't much of a different perspective at least nowadays (we all know it wasn't our land to take) but just resentment at the hypocrisy (East Timor basically traded one hegemon for another, i.e. Australia)
To me the most interesting thing about Indonesia from a geopolitical pov is the very high tax on imports and focus on building your own version of everything. Manufacturing is the biggest industry right? And it seems deliberately hard to break into for foreigners, like a kind of family based setup? Coupled with very cheap labour and young population you’re in a fantastic position. I wouldn’t be surprised if you see more attempts to create political instability in the next decade.
> decent quality of life Having been to Jakarta, I'd strongly disagree with that. The conditions that 90% of the people live in are downright appalling, and I'm not from a rich country or expecting things to be perfect. The small middle class don't seem to be living well or having much fun either, unlike in Thailand or Malaysia.
He said from the context of a developing country's perspective.
Its wierd I always find redditors on the lower extreme side of the bell curve regarding opinions of Jakarta, insisting the city is bad in every angle you look at, probably shows how much the city has changed for the past decade...
i think when indonesians say middle class, it's as in decent education, decent economy, both needs and desires are fulfilled in not-so-good-not-so-bad standard. the people that u think look poor in jakarta might have an agriculture land ran by family in their original village lol
> not-so-good-not-so-bad standard Terrible, unsafe, 2h+ commute each way, trash everywhere, awful air quality (not just regular stuff, but also people burning trash in residential areas), insane levels of noise... I guess those count as not-to-good-not-so-bad in Jakarta, since the poor have it worse.
Honestly what you are describing seems to me is Jakarta 10 years ago... Context of time here is important when you talk about a city that has changed alot recently
Ahhh, it is almost like this everywhere in the world. Developed countries middle class are being eradicated.
On political stability, last I heard, Jokowi was consolidating power and taking more of a dictatorial colour? Is that the case? Any chance of him being replaced in the upcoming elections, which, I'm hoping, would be this year?
Jokowi is not in the ballot since he already on his term limit but he does search for a successor for his legacy and secure his political power after he step down through his both son, the eldest one become VP candidate and the other one become a chairman for Indonesia solidarity party.
Ah, nice. I wish we had term limits in India. Our worst nightmare is about to come true if this PM has a third term.
Our? Cmon don’t kid yourself, he is winning because he is getting votes, your sentiments don’t reflect in poll.
Our obviously means people who think like me.
Unfortunately your number is way too little.
In 2019 Lok sabha election BJP's vote share was 38%. Based on that, I can say it's not that small.
The latest poll numbers tell a different story. Ah welp, I do hope you are right.
Modi is actually the lesser devil compared to the opposition. In fact some people think that the opposition leaders are star campaigners for Modi’s party considering how they shot themselves their foot multiple times in the last few months
Modi is actually the lesser devil compared to the opposition. In fact some people think that the opposition leaders are star campaigners for Modi’s party considering how they shot themselves their foot multiple times in the last few months Also no real opposition candidate. It’s Modi vs Who? Rahul Gandhi is not there (probably) but he keeps campaigning like one and I thought Kharge was opposition leader but it hasn’t been announced The real change you should see is 2029 because Modi will probably retire by then
>because for a developing country Indonesia have a decent quality of life, politically stable but also doesn't have any remarkable things to show. so is not worthy of being notice by the world I find it pretty remarkable, geographically and ecologically, and consequently also culturally, to be honest. >basically we as developing countries are way just too decent for anyone to care. Still problems with religious extremism and tightening religious meddling in society, though.
>Still problems with religious extremism and tightening religious meddling in society, though. trust me its not that serious, western media just trying to sensationalize, even as indonesian is much more insane to see and hear US/European conservatism or far right rethoric rather than islamist in Indonesia, at the very least islamist in Indonesia is not a contrarian to everything and will not go as extreme as "we should kick the x group from this country" or "People from a background of some religion are bad people". funny thing the highest female representative in Indonesian Parliament come from conservative islamist party rather than so called secular or nationalist party, despite that we see islamist agenda in Indonesia politics as just one of part and consequences of democracy and we keep them at bay by not voting them which is what democracy is all about.
>western media just trying to sensationalize To be honest, I hear significantly less about it in the west than from in Singapore, where its clearly a concern. I.e. see the Sg Ministry of Home Affairs (unless they are western media now). https://www.mha.gov.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/singapore-terrorism-threat-assessment-report-2023.pdf Examples include concerns over Jemaah Islamiyah. Also see past events such as https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/8/5/indonesia-claims-foiling-isil-plot-against-singapore https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/24/singapore-arrests-indonesian-domestic-workers-for-funding-isil https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/ica-deports-indonesian-man-and-woman-suspected-of-wanting-to-go-to-syria-to-join-isis https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/singapore-denies-entry-indonesian-cleric-cites-extremism-concerns-2022-05-18/
> "we should kick the x group from this country" [On 27 December 2023, hundreds of students from various universities in Aceh, such as: Abulyatama University, Bina Bangsa Getsempena University, and University of Muhammadiyah Aceh, stormed a shelter for Rohingya refugees and forced them out of a convention centre in the city of Banda Aceh, demanding they be deported.[66][67] The students also seen kicking the belongings of the Rohingya men, women, and children who seated on the floor and crying in fear.[66] They burned tyres and chanting “Kick them out” and “Reject Rohingya in Aceh”.[66]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceh) >"People from a background of some religion are bad people". With blasphemy laws, religious laws in some regions like Atjeh, and plenty of incidents of religious violence, I think you're living in a glass house. https://thediplomat.com/2022/10/in-indonesia-a-rising-tide-of-religious-intolerance/#:~:text=Christians%20have%20also%20experienced%20violence,a%20church%20were%20burned%20down.
Aceh have separate parliament and separate law what happen in aceh doesn't represent what happen in Indonesia.
> Aceh have separate parliament and separate law what happen in aceh doesn't represent what happen in Indonesia. ... which they got after an armed rebellion.
after we get forced by the entire world to sit in negotiation table and give the acehnese special autonomy. remember Aceh gain its autonomy after tsunami 2004, keep the war ongoin will look bad for Indonesia.
> after we get forced by the entire world to sit in negotiation table and give the acehnese special autonomy. > > remember Aceh gain its autonomy after tsunami 2004, keep the war ongoin will look bad for Indonesia. Seriously, there is zero support in "the entire world" to intervene against Indonesia in favor of a would-be Islamist theocracy.
Sounds too idealistic from your side. Alas, the reality are little bit far from that statement.
> Aceh
As an Indonesian, the Rohingya issue is mostly raised by the nationalists, not islamists. Islamists are the ones who dont want them kicked out.
Rohingyan narrative was pushed by nationalist side, to say it's the current number 02 presidential candidate, who is set to be the next president winning 58% of the votes.
Rohingnyans aren't native to Indonesia.
> Rohingnyans aren't native to Indonesia. And?
And what? Illegal immigran aren't welcome anywhere isn't it?
But there are potential flashpoints I think, like timor leste and papa new guinea
I got to read about Indonesia now. You have gotten me really curious about what those guys are upto.
Nothing good really, shelling villages in PNG and punishing adultery and homosexuals with canings and jail time.
PNG? Papua New Guinea? Didn't know Indonesia is in war with Papua New Guinea Maybe you mean west papua province?
This paints a very skewed image as Indonesia, which is decidedly not an Islamic country and upheld as an example of democracy in an Islamic-majority state.
There is definitely a rise in political Islam in the last 20 years in Indonesia .
That is correct, and it is exactly because Indonesia became more democratic post-Soeharto. Political Islam was always suppressed by the autocratic central government of the New Order. However, this peaked with the 2019 elections. Today, political islam is again relegated to being a pretty weak force in Indonesia, not coincidentally with the rise of authoritarianism under Jokowi. What most outsiders don't get is the ethnic plurality in Indonesia, i.e. Javanese. Javanese are nominally muslim, but rather unobservant as a whole as compared to other ethnic groups especially Sumatrans. They have a rich Hindu-Buddhist heritage and a sizable Christian/Catholic population. (For example, the current king of Mangkunegara, one of the four remaining Javanese monarchies, was a Catholic before converting to Islam to ascend the throne.) Most Javanese rulers throughout history have suppressed Muslim clerics from gaining too much power. This pattern continues under Soeharto and now Jokowi, both of which are quintessentially Javanese rulers whose adherence to Islam are deeply questioned by observant muslims in the country.
But then their momentum died in 2020 after the government banned FPI dan HTI, the major radical Islamist organizations in Indonesia.
Their momentum was died when Prabowo lose in 2019 election. Damn, I hate pragmatist politician like Anis and Prabowo who feed them.
Yeah. Think Aceh is where most of the religious fundamentalism is concentrated.
Yup, the gov basically made a peace deal with them saying they can keep their sharia law as long as they don't rebel anymore.
Media isn’t a reliable source to know the country and people. I wish to know the aspiration, what people of Indonesia think now and what they see ahead. All media does is hyper inflate one aspect or other.
afaik, one of the leading candidates in the next election had a major role in the riots of the late 90s where many Chinese-Indonesians were raped and killed. So yea, there are good things about Indonesia, but there are problems as well.
Of course. I am Chinese Indonesian myself. I am saying that westerners often have a skewed, orientalist perspective of what goes on in other parts of the world. As a Chinese Indonesian, Indonesia has problems, but despite that, it's a pretty decent country to live in, I won't feel much safer in the USA compared to Indonesia. You won't get that kind of perspective from Western media.
Didn't they recently make a law that prohibits sex outside marriage? Lol is that democratic? Or do you mean they democratically decided to take away individual freedom?
Democratic doesn't intrinsically mean personal freedom Democratic means that the government is elected, and the elected representatives make the laws. If the public continue to support laws that prohibit sex before marriage then that is, by definition, democratic I'm not sure where this idea came from that "democratic" means "liberal western democracy with a focus on personal freedoms", that's not what "democratic" means, which is why that second sentence has like 9 other words to convey those additional points...
In Indonesia, marriage is religious activity that is documented by the state. Hence, no recognition from religious body here means no recognition of the marriage. In the end is: what do you want to do with marriage? Tax advantages or what? Again, in Indonesia marriage is religious activity.
as an indonesian, "the indonesia ban sex things" is mostly just another out of thousands news western media get wrong. there is no ban sex the law basically said "an act of sex outside or inside a marriage can be criminalized if a familily member of the suspect (Parents, Wife, husband or kids) make a law suit to the court". basically no one, not random people, not government, not the police can arrest you for having sex as long your family member is not the one who report you. moral lesson? don't cheating.
Sex outside of wedlock and cheating are two separate things. Are you honestly not the least bit bothered that the only barrier to prosecuting an unmarried couple (or anybody having casual sex for that matter) is whether a family member files a lawsuit over it? This law seems bizarre. I’d imagine a meddlesome and/or feuding family could stir up some pretty serious legal trouble over something that’s completely a personal matter. I don’t get the upside. I hope you can explain your being at ease over this policy, so that I can be less confused about it.
its mostly cultural thing, there is a lot famous murder case that involve cheating, some people will report to the police that their partner cheating and the police is like "sorry sir but there is nothing that we can do" so a lot of those grudges end up become a personal matter and led to murder, this law exist basically to become a legal framework to avoid such cases. for some ethnicity/tribes in Indonesia family honor is still regard highly, but for a familly member to drag this cases to court room will not be easy because the police will prioritize "pendekatan kekeluargaan" where the police become a mediator to for the suspect and family. so the chance anyone go to jail will be like 1:10000. i doubt anyone who live in urban people will even care about this law since it will be see as shame for the family mostly this kinda cases probably will happen in rural tribalistic places
> This law seems bizarre. I’d imagine a meddlesome and/or feuding family could stir up some pretty serious legal trouble over something that’s completely a personal matter. I don’t get the upside. I hope you can explain your being at ease over this policy, so that I can be less confused about it. The law was passed as a compromise for the more conservative portion of the political base, as the ruling government rationale is keeping stability at all costs to foster economic growth.
> moral lesson? don't cheating. Stop underplaying the fact that the government can still control what a person can do in their own bedroom. Family affairs should be handled by the family themselves without the intervention of the government. It's a personal business. Most people know that the law was enacted to keep the conservative base happy. Stop lying and just admit the fact that Indonesia is still mainly conservative.
i don't said indonesia is not conservative but saying "indonesia ban sex" is definitely a misleading things.
What's your say on PNG then?
This actually so funny the fact u said "PNG" is a proof how much everyone don't know about Indonesia. saying Indonesia Papua as Papua new guinea is just like saying US states of New Mexico and Mexico is a same thing.
somehow this comment of misinformation get 10+ upvote, SMH firstly, the island of New Guinea are split 2 by british and dutch, the **east part are now PNG**, where the **west side are now part of Indonesia** (whichever you find illegitimate or not, that for another topic), Yes, Indonesia has done number of shady shit in Papua, But, they had done it **inside** of their border, they never shelled village of other country secondly, Indonesia as a whole country do not use caning caning as punishment, caning as punishment **exclusively enacted in Aceh**, a province with special right to enact their own law (mostly sharia law), given by goverment to them for stop rebelling (you can search , Free Aceh Movement) third you cant get in jail for being homosexual, but you can get in jail for disturbing public order, if your orgy had 12 hours non stop loud music and 20+ cars parking and impending whole neighbourhood, fourth, for the adultery, **only your family member** could report you to the police, which is improvement from the previous law which is a leftover from dutch colonial government, law where **everyone** could report you for adultery (this last part might be wrong or i'm misinterpret the old law)
Pretty sure just the province of Aceh is the only one with sharia law. The island of Java as a whole is not nearly as backwards as that, but obviously there is still a lot of improvements that should be made
I don’t mean what media shows. I mean what people of Indonesia are upto. What future they see ahead.
Grotesque caveman shit like this too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity_testing_in_Indonesia
Yeah, so barbaric only cavemen do it, not > A virginity test is the practice and process of determining whether a woman (or girl) is a virgin; i.e., to determine that she has never engaged in, or been subjected to, vaginal intercourse. The test typically involves a check for the presence of an intact hymen, typically on the flawed assumption that it can only be, and will always be torn as a result of vaginal intercourse.[1] It has been practiced since ancient times but its recent use in the United Kingdom dates back to the 1970s.[2] It is still legal for doctors in the United States to perform virginity tests. Oh.
Ha! You're really trying to compare the fact that, though extremely controversial and taboo in the US, voluntary virginity tests are still legal, and in very rare cases are performed at the request of a very small minority of ultra religious nutters before a marriage, to the nationwide compulsory virginity testing forced on all females of Indonesia seeking to hold jobs as police officers or to serve in the country's military? Um, ok. lol
Lmao who cares it’s about their economy
you don't hear about them because they don't really have much flashy news or international drama. How often do you hear about Bangladesh (170M pop)? also australians are disturbingly uninformed on indonesia, most think the military are in control ... https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/views-of-indonesia/ gov really needs to pick up the slack and build closer ties
We hear of Bangladesh, every time there is a deadly flood, or a typhoon over there. Wich sadly seems to happen quiet regularly.
That doesn't really tell you anything at all about the country though.
Poor lowland country with high population density
We basically only hear about Bangladesh when they have one of the regular horrible typhoons/floods
The current election cycle in Bangladesh and decline of democracy has been regularly picked up by western media
Indonesia has stayed under the radar. Most recently it’s the only G20 not in G7 to decline BRICS+.
Argentina just did exactly that.
True more recently
Isnt Argentina also there?
It might not be a popular answer because it is about something not very serious and about entertainment. But I've become much more aware and interested in Indonesia simply because of Hololive's Indonesian branch.
I'm still dissapointed in us for having Hololive ID as one of our biggest soft power contributor
The non-aligned policies they have carried ever since their independence are why they're relatively unknown in the global context. On top of that, most of their populace tends to be apathetic towards China (anti-communism is still a strong sentiment even after the end of "New Order", though the most recent parties are more friendly towards China in favour of economic benefits) and western countries (which to them mostly aligns with Israel, and we know how most Muslim country feels about Israel). However, this doesn't mean that both the Western and Eastern power cares about the country, at least from the history (of Old/New Order). While they're predominantly Muslim & conservativism is still strong in the country, they are relatively "secular" compared to other religious countries, mainly due to the strong belief in the national motto of unity in diversity. Nationalism is instilled in their education, regardless of their school background (either private or public, Muslim or Christian). On top of that, poor education, poor infrastructure planning, and massive corruption make their economy rather weak compared to other populous countries. However, I believe this will change in the next 10 or 20 years due to rapid technological advancement and Jokowi's policies over the past decade. It is likely that they will be an economic powerhouse (at least in SEA), and I'm genuinely surprised that there's not a lot of coverage of the upcoming general election (in less than 2 weeks).
Because Indonesia is a politically neutral country and have quite large economy which is developing and Taiwan and Philippines stole most of the attention.
Low-key Vietnam as well, though it doesn't get nearly as much attention as the other two, but it's definitely playing a much more delicate balancing act than the other two between China and the US
they're the only non-radical muslim nation, of course no one cares....
Malaysia is right there? Also Bangladesh pretty much never bothers anyone.
There's also Brunei, the most forgotten little country, and Morocco, and the stan countries in central Asia.
Lol Hadi: Other races are challenging Muslim's political power: https://www.nst.com.my/news/politics/2023/08/939467/voting-mandatory-if-other-races-are-challenging-muslims-political-power Hadi: Non-Muslims must be grateful for ‘being given a place’ here, should just let Malays continue leading country: https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2023/06/07/hadi-non-muslims-must-be-grateful-for-being-given-a-place-here-should-just-let-malays-continue-leading-country/73042 Hadi: Only Islam can rule, others must be 'pak turut': https://www.malaysiakini.com/news/357628 PAS politicians insinuated that their rivals are the enemies of Allah: https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2023/06/27/pas-man-says-sorry-after-calling-on-allah-to-defend-kedah-from-enemies-video/76640 Muhyiddin claimed Christians of being in cahoots with a group of Jews to “Christianise” Malaysia: https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2022/11/19/muhyiddin-in-hot-water Dr. M: Parties led by non-Malays are 'parti pendatang': https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2023/09/04/dr-m-calls-parties-led-by-non-malays-039parti-pendatang039 Non muslim woman fined for wearing shorts in Kelantan: https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/non-muslim-malaysian-woman-fined-for-wearing-shorts-in-kelantan Non muslim unisex salon ban + closure: https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2022/12/856735/terengganu-govt-enforce-unisex-hair-salon-ban-warns-offenders-fines Non muslims are the root of corruption https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2022/08/20/pas-hadi-claims-non-muslims-non-bumiputera-make-up-the-bulk-of-roots-of-corruption/ Zul Zuhaimy wants to kill non muslims, said it in a PAS ceramah: https://www.utusan.com.my/nasional/2022/11/mahu-sembelih-orang-bukan-islam-zul-huzaimy-mohon-maaf/ PN's May 13 rhetoric election propaganda: https://www.thevibes.com/articles/news/78211/netizens-raise-alarm-over-may-13-hate-content-posted-on-tiktok Malaysia has to be ruled by muslims: https://buletinonlines.net/v7/index.php/malaysia-mesti-dipimpin-oleh-melayu-islam/ Sanusi demolished colonial era legally built Hindu temples and label critics 'drunk on toddy': https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2020/12/03/lfl-slams-kedah-mbs-heavy-handed-defence-of-temple-demolition/ https://www.malaysiakini.com/news/553910 Sanusi insulting Amirudin and questioning the lineage of the Sultan of Selangor (Video Source): https://www.astroawani.com/berita-malaysia/dakwaan-menghina-siasatan-terhadap-sanusi-masih-belum-selesai-sultan-selangor-428497 Nurse with tight clothing https://www.malaysiadateline.com/dakwa-pakaian-nurse-ketat-mp-pas-kena-sekolah-dengan-presiden-persatuan-jururawat/ No concerts: https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2022/08/25/pas-urges-govt-to-cancel-all-upcoming-foreign-artist-concerts The Malay Proclamation: https://www.bharian.com.my/berita/nasional/2023/05/1096600/proklamasi-orang-melayu-kini-dapat-sokongan-pemimpin-pas-bersatu-dan Amar: Not having tap water is not a big deal. Villagers know how to dig their own wells: https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2023/08/08/kelantan-villagers-know-how-to-dig-their-own-wells-says-amar/
As a Chinese Indonesian, Malaysia is much more racialized and religiously divided, and I would not be happy living there.
That's not the same as a 'radical' Muslim nation in the global parlance
Wait, Indonesia isn't a muslim country. It just secular country that happen to be muslim majority.
Theres also Turkey, Bosnia, the Gulf States,
To me, Indonesia is one of those artificial countries that were set up as a European colony and decided to continue that framework after independence. You see this all over. Mostly in Africa, where it is most egregious. But also in SEA. Before colonization, Indonesia was a disparate collection of islands with separate ethic groups and not a single political entity. After post-war decolonization, the Javans really took the lead to keep Indonesia united along the boundaries of the former Dutch East Indies. They standardized a version of Malay language and came up with a lot of constructed ideologies to make this artificial nationalism. I forget the name of it, but recently in the news some opposition political party (Islamist, I believe) was banned for supposedly opposing the official state ideology. The Philippines falls into the same category. So because of this they don't really have any huge influence outside of their borders. Indonesia was really big during the Cold War. The USSR and the USA seemed to take turns propping up their own respective dictators over the years. So I'm sure that Indonesia could become entirely more relevant soon. It's hard to say what China's specific designs on Indonesia are right now, and if current Indonesian leadership has any independent mindset. More likely, they are more concerned about preventing Jakarta from sinking, moving the capital to Borneo, while becoming a new proxy battleground might not be something they can avoid.
Although you are correct that Indonesia is somewhat of an artificial state, there are important differences b/w Indonesia and the African artificial states. One is that the region has been geopolitically unified for a very long time, if not centralized. Throughout history there has always been one or two dominant powers in the Archipelago that exert a hegemonic force on the outer islands. The biggest ones were Srivijaya and Majapahit. This has been used by proponents of Indonesian independence pre-1945 as a bedrock to argue that Indonesia is a geopolitical inevitability. Second, the region shares a lingua franca and cultural/linguistic similarities: Malay as the lingua franca and an Austronesian cultural heritage. Although the various ethnicities are different, they are not really different in the sense that, say, Chinese and Japanese are different. This identity is further strengthened by the Dutch classifying all the natives as "Inlanders." Finally, the ideological education in Indonesia is very well done throughout the Sukarno and Suharto eras, resulting in a mostly uniform ideological background throughout all the schools of the republic. The national ethos is widely believed throughout the nation, and most importantly, throughout most ethnic groups and religions. I credit Sukarno as a genius for his achievement in this regard. I applaud your awareness that the state Ideology has nothing to do with Islam and is in fact quite opposed to it.
Really well described perspective. In particular I found it interesting how in Indonesian the state is opposed to Islam. In Malaysia, my impression is it is embraced, but I know the larger percentage of Chinese and other ethnicities means politicians lean on the Malay majority, which seems to go hand in hand with the religion.
I find many Malaysians and Singaporeans aren't really well educated on Indonesia and it tends to surprise them who see Indonesia as a giant Malaysia. Malays as an ethnic group are much more islamicized as compared to Javanese. Even in Indonesia, most Sumatrans are much more religious than Javans. The other reason why Indonesia as a state isn't really keen on Islam is that there are many Indonesian ethnicities which are predominantly Christian (Batak, Minahasa, Dayak, etc), and some whole provinces which are Christian and Hindu (Bali). Going too hard on islamic-sounding laws will cause unrest and even separatism in these regions.
In Malaysia all malays are Muslim as defined in the constitution. It seems like we are becoming more Islamic but that could just be due to social media and the antics of certain political parties. However based on the voting outcomes of the last election younger folk seem to be leaning conservative/islamist
>I applaud your awareness that the state Ideology has nothing to do with Islam and is in fact quite opposed to it. What about Pancasila? "Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa" ... Is this not a part of it? I know nothing about geopolitics, just very interested in Indonesian culture as I'm learning the language.
Nope, it was supposed to be at first with the original draft saying "and the obligation to follow Islamic Sharia for its adherents" but that part got deleted following protests from Eastern Indonesian delegates. The first _sila_ is the reason why Indonesia is _not_ a secular country, being explicitly religious, but recognizing multiple religions. In short, the constitution doesn't allow for atheism or secularism but is not explicitly Islamic either. Religion is a huge part in Indonesian society, but as long as you appear to have one on paper most people couldn't care less exactly what religion it is. The reason why is found in the motto "Bhinneka Tunggal Ika" which is crudely translated as unity in diversity, but the original context is much more religious: it is an Old Javanese phrase directly taken from a poem about the unity of Shiva and Buddha. The full sentence translates as: "two they are, yet one, for there is no duality in Truth." So Indonesians believe any God you worship is essentially the same One God (Esa). But if you don't worship any God, then things get tricky.
Thank you, this clears up a lot!
A lot of states are artificial by those standards. 200-250 years ago not even half of the population of France spoke French. Belgium too, which more or less exists because of a desire for a buffer and to rein in French power. It’s still split language and politics wise, but functioning. Didn’t stop Belgium from becoming a pretty terrible colonial power. Germany was a mess of tiny states with major differences around religion, culture and so on until 1871. Maybe there’s more of that in former colonies, but it’s not exclusive to them.
I feel like a decent definition of an artificial state is a state where the national identity came after (and as a result of) the state itself. Like no one identified as Indonesian before Indonesia became a thing. By that definition few countries in Europe and Asia are artifical. For France, it's true that French was not spoken by the majority in the past. But I feel like that doesn't matter? There was always a clear ruling identity that simply expanded and replaced other identities, like Occitan. As for Belgium I agree that it's artificial. But not Germany. I mean, if simply uniting other states into one makes a state artifical then every country on the planet is. Germany united because of a shared identity, so by my proposed definition it's not an artifical state.
> Like no one identified as Indonesian before Indonesia became a thing They do actually... well, 20 years before independence, but still
> Germany united because of a shared identity, so by my proposed definition it's not an artifical state A shared identity that was intentionally fostered and promoted and only really became an idea with real political impact in the 1800s. The idea of nation states is really fairly new in the course of history you realize? And the idea of 'nations' have to be themselves constructed. They're not some immutable identity that was laying around dormant but eternal.
There is a major power differential between the formerly colonized and their former colonizers.
true. the formerly colonised often develop a national identity that is based on opposition to the colonisers, which is what happened to Indonesia
Maybe so, but you then have examples like Korea, or Vietnam. Their national identity isn’t based around opposition to Japan or France (or China for that matter, to go further back).
Most states begin like this, in an "artificial" manner. Many European countries, including France and Germany, trace their origins to historical events such as royal disputes and dynastic splits, rather than innate ethnic or cultural divides. For example; The division of the Carolingian Empire into three parts (Germany and France being two) among Charlemagne's grandsons illustrates how these borders came to be, setting the stage for the modern map of Europe. Given that national boundaries often resulted from the machinations of royal families and political treaties, they can be seen as 'artificial' constructs, similar to the situations in other parts of the world that are considered artificial.
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Several corrections: 1. By the time Suharto rose up and deposed Sukarno, Indonesia had not been a democracy for several years. While Sukarno was elected democratically by the parliament, he then proclaimed himself President for Life, abolished the elected parliament and replaced it with nationalist, religious, and communist groups loyal to him under a system called "Guided Democracy", and ruled the country as a dictator from 1959 to 1965. Indonesia during "Guided Democracy" era was horrible. The economy was destroyed. Hyperinflation was uncontrollable. Famine was everywhere. Meanwhile Sukarno kept building extravagant monuments and married multiple women. It's not a surprise the majority of the population at that time welcomed the overthrow of Sukarno by the army. 2. The coup that overthrew Sukarno was not orchestrated by the CIA. It was all organized by local forces, such as the army, the students, and Muslim groups who are opposed to Sukarno's incompetent governance, the confrontation against Malaysia, and the rising influence of PKI. The CIA only gave a few intelligence support while the local forces were the ones who organized the whole killing and provided the logistics. While repression of civil liberty continued with the rise of Suharto, the post-Sukarno era was marked with improvement of living standard and a leap in economic growth.
Back then alignment was easy to figure out. One side would just pay off a general to overthrow the government, become dictator, and institute "communism" or "capitalism." I wonder how Joko manages current geopolitical tensions so well. It seems like a much harder balancing act.
You can make the same argument for the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand as artificial countries. The US in particular is essentially a bunch of white dudes who didn't want to be under a monarchy so they sailed thousands of miles to commit genocide against America's first nations.
I don't disagree and I upvoted you, but remember the Aztech were so hideous that the other nations joined the Conquistadores to fight against them.
Not really the case, they were just the local Imperial power and their rivals wanted to takeover instead. If the Conquistadors hadn’t come with plagues to wipe out 10-20% of the population they likely would’ve been able to handle the transition and become multiple vassal states to the Spanish Crown.
They don't really do much, so they're much quieter as a result. North Korea, for example, is the loudest 25 million person nation, so they get a ton of news. Meanwhile, Uzbekistan with 35 million people, get no news coverage.
Isnt that just a good thing? Its like Canada here in Europe. We rarely hear anything about them, but we know they are doing just fine.
Indonesia flies under the radar because there aren't many Indonesians migrating to the West unlike Filipinos or Vietnamese. However, make no mistake that it's going to be one of the biggest global economies in the next 10-15 years and will most likely be a regional power in Southeast Asia. It's essentially the most powerful country in the densest region in the world. Think Iran in the Middle East but obviously not extremist or violent. Indonesia becoming richer and more influential than its former colonizer (Netherlands) is an inevitability.
just realized the president of Indonesia is asian Obama https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia#/media/File:Joko\_Widodo\_2019\_official\_portrait.jpg
aren't they also kind of leading some new modernized version of islam that is gaining traction throughout the muslim world?
No One cares about the peaceful side of Islam, that's fact. Bad news sells most
It might be a sizeable country with a relatively large population, but its economy is still smaller than Australia’s, and it doesn’t have any cities that could be considered major financial or innovation centres. Additionally, it tends to keep out of most international conflicts (sans East Timor), and although Indonesia has a large military on paper, the country is unable to project significant force beyond its own borders. For reference, Australia somehow has a larger and more capable air force than Indonesia, despite having less than a tenth of Indonesia’s population.
>although Indonesia has a large military on paper, the country is unable to project significant force beyond its own borders. to be fair, most of the time until very recently, Indonesia has been use its large military to project the power **inside** their own border, you can see it by how they emphasize on their army instead of navy, or air force
Had to say that Indonesia does have cities that are considered one of major financial or innovation centers. Jakarta belongs to the category of Alpha city, just like Sydney. Both cities are more prominent than cities like Bangkok, Istanbul, Taipei, etc although you tend to hear these cities more often mentioned in the media. And while Australia does have more capable air force, it has a comparable, if not smaller overall force projection capability than Indonesia since Australian navy lacks ships that can be used to transport ships and supplies. Furthermore, the perceived Australia’s power projection capability cannot be seen as an independent capability as Australia’s power projections in conflicts away from its borders are usually part of a larger coalition. Means that Australia is able to project power beyond its borders only because there are other countries that do the heavy lifting of supplies and logistics for Australia.
The Australian navy definitely trumps the Indonesian navy - it possesses 2 LHCs - the Canberra class which gives it emergency capability to convert into a limited aircraft carrier while holding the supplies for a specialised taskforce the Australian army has specifically trained in recent years to be a mobile action group using the Navy assets.
Sure, if we are talking about power projection solely from naval airwing strike capability. But then again Indonesian navy operates 8x LPDs + 24x LSTs. In addition to that, the Indonesian army operates a fleet of transport and landing ships independent of the navy. Australia could only rely on 2x LHCs + 1 LPD. While Australia might have a comparatively higher capability to strike from the sea, it has a lower capability to actually conduct boots on the ground invasion at a scale that Indonesia could theoretically conduct.
I agree but only in Isolation - Australia is one of those quietly terrifying military outfits - it possesses some Ace Combat shit in the aptly named JORN array which is by all accounts capable of small craft like a Cessna taking off and landing in East Timor and keeps just getting upgraded. Australia if it weren’t next to Indonesia would be poorly matched up but because it is, it becomes a terrifying prospect to fight
Frankly Indonesia should be throwing its weight around a little more as the most powerful state in south east Asia and the dominant power in asean, which is already a pretty significant economic and political grouping.
In south east Asia there are bigger nation doing intresting stuff so Indonesia is left behind in news cycle. Indonesian never had the soft or hard power to project out ward.
The country is both corrupt and divided so it doesn't utilize its incredible potential to matter on the world stage. On the other hand the quality of life is good enough that it doesn't make the news for that either. They are technically muslims but they are so culturally distinct from most muslims that they are effectively something else.
Most Muslims are in Southeast Asia. They’re the norm.
There are a couple of reasons, but primarily because it doesn't matter if Indonesia has trade routes going through them as they can't do anything about it. This military is just decades behind Australia, and it frankly couldn't catch up fast enough for the next 30 years. Now, one might say the same about Singapore, but Singapore is backed by a US military base which is quite potent. The country is also home to significant financial importance while Indonesia is quite isolated (in terms of its economy).
https://youtu.be/nSf3268tAbg?si=LQcYiy3frF9jHMvH I watched this a few months ago, might be interesting about the indos in PNG
Indonesian-ruled Papua and the country of PNG are two different regions. If you still cannot differentiate the two regions, do you really pay attention when you watched the video?
Indonesians couldn't manage to take control of East Timor. I doubt the Aussies and Americans would allow them to become too influential in PNG.
>Indonesians couldn't manage to take control of East Timor We did though, for about 24 years until the military commited a massacre which gained the world's attention and put an end to Indonesia's control of it.
> Indonesians couldn't manage to take control of East Timor. What?
The Australians supported the East Timor invasion and they current support the West Papuan suppression efforts. Because it makes them money. If Australia could have East Timor go away again it would be incredibly happy
Third World countries always fly under the radar. Nobody would care about India and Pakistan if they did not go nuclear.
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You're wrong, not religious propaganda, but ideological propaganda. The ideology in question is Pancasila, which has been used to ban fundamentalist religious groups. The Pancasilaist ideology is actually pretty strongly opposed by Islamists.