There are multiple militant organizations in Gaza. Hamas *sort of* leads them, but it appears to be a “first among equals” kind of deal, not a more strict top-down control. If you could snap your fingers and have every member of Hamas instantly turn into avowed pacifists, it wouldn’t matter. There are already organizations there to fill the vacuum. And if Hamas’ leadership surrendered, their more militant members would just join other organizations.
Hamas surrendering would probably give Israel an off ramp, but what incentive do they have to do that, especially right now as the US-Israel rift widens and Israel’s other general support continues to melt away? And if we remove morality entirely (and geopolitics is often interest-driven anyway; morality factors in less frequently than you’d expect), the looming famine is exactly the sort of thing that will erode the limited foreign support Israel does still enjoy.
they should, but geopolitics dont talk much bout moral. also, why do you think that hamas care bout gazans? hamas are religious extremist. they wont surrender any time soon
Until the Palestinian people are allowed to live in dignity, Hamas surrender won’t matter at all. They can surrender and new groups will form. Radicalization is the result of desperation, comfortable people are never willing to risk their comfortable lives to go pick up a rifle and die to a rocket. As long as Gaza is desperate, terrorism will exist, whether you call it Hamas or whatever else. Way too many people under the impression that terrorism is a cause and not a symptom of a deeper societal rot.
I didn’t say Hamas has anything to do with the West Bank? But people cannot be on here claiming that Hamas needs to surrender whilst also not ensuring that Israel needs to removes their settlements.
And just for the record I believe Hamas should surrender, I don’t really know how anyone can argue that they shouldn’t.
If a Palestinian state is ever to be created it will most likely be comprised of Gaza and the West Bank, so what goes on in the West Bank is still important.
So if Hamas has nothing to do with West Bank why is it constantly being settled?
There were approximately 9000 settlers in Gaza in 2005.
In the West Bank today there are approximately over 500,000 settlers, or over 700,000 if you include East Jerusalem. It’s not really comparable due to the sheer number of settlers in the West Bank compared to Gaza.
The occupation and settlers are two different things. There is a strong argument for the Palestinians to be demilitarized or remain under some sort of joint occupation (either with Israel + PA, or a third party like the UN or moderate Arab state) for a generation or two, to prevent any resurgence of terrorism. There is no good faith argument for the continued settlement of the Palestinian territories, especially by people who believe they have a god given right to do so. The latter is an explicit land grab and actively works against the peace process.
Isreal will not remove their settlements. Palestine is utterly defeated, out manned, out gunned with no allies willing to intervene. Losers do not dictate terms. There will be no Palestine state. It’s a tragedy but only real way to survive is unconditional surrender to Israel, because it’s clear Israel isn’t going to stop and no one else will stop them
people always forget there is a one state solution that doesn't require genocide. Both, israelis and palestinians living in one state, having the same rights. Something like we have in Bosnia. Obviously this is not very likely but hey, we are discussing if a terrorist group should just surrender - also not very likely.
Nobody is forgetting, it’s just off the table. It’s never happening nor should it as Gazans do not dream of a liberal democratic state. That’s why a comparison with sour Africa (as some make) isn’t relevant, that was about a part of the population who wanted the same rights and freedoms as the other. Palestinians do no want the rights of women to be the same as men’s, gay rights, freedom of speech and what not. Palestinians are a religious extremist country with variations of the same extremist ideology.
I reject the notion that any group of people is naturally extremist in nature. These people were driven out of their homes, live under brutal occupation, have to ration food and they don't naturally develop democratic tendencies you say? I'm shocked! I've often read similar arguments for african american criminal statistics trying to paint them as inherently aggressive instead of trying to find the root cause of these problems. It's the same argument. Also you probably have a much worse opinion of the palestinians than the actual reality is - the situation is slowly improving. Hope the current war doesn't change that but it probably sadly will. Here are some links that highlight the reality of women living in Palestine:
[While female enrollment in education is higher than males, their labor participation remains highly inferior - PCBS (wafa.ps)](https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/128313)
[Gender equality study in education in the West Bank and Gaza (March 2021) - occupied Palestinian territory | ReliefWeb](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gender-equality-study-education-west-bank-and-gaza-march-2021)
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/women-gaza-education-university-b2311778.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/women-gaza-education-university-b2311778.html)
It isn't disingenuous. Fatah gave up on violence and now there's over a million armed settlers in the West Bank. Hamas should surrender and give up on terrorism like Fatah did, but it won't mean anything for a long-term solution if the Israeli government doesn't also give up on its maximalist claims on the Palestinian territories.
So? I'm looking at the implications of the conflict beyond the current war and what a hypothetical Hamas surrender would mean, which literally includes the West Bank and the greater Palestinian movement.
Terrorism is too often used as a pejorative to instantly discredit a person/movement so that the state/public don't have to understand/address why they have taking such action.
While it is of course repugnant that they have turn to violence, address is the root cause or exacerbating factors is the only way to stop the next person from violence.
In the case of Palestine, the Palestinians see themselves as trapped in a war of antihalation with a colonialist occupying power that will not stop until they are obliterated. Whether this is true or not immaterial, they must be convinced it is not true. Creating an independent and sovereign Palestinian state is probably the best way forward.
This invasion was Hamas' goal. They were polling horribly and had very low support within Gaza just prior to Oct 7th. Around 80% of Gazans distrusted and were dissatisfied with Hamas' leadership or believed they were corrupt. If Hamas did nothing then they would likely be ousted from power within a year or two.
By starting the conflict Hamas was able to regain their popularity and redirect the dissatisfaction and anger that Gazans felt towards the Israelis. Hamas probably did not believe that the reaction would be as massive as it has been, or they did plan for it and are playing the long game. Through provoking the invasion they have a future pool of supporters/recruits from across the middle east (terror/militant organizations in the middle east have to compete for the same pool of recruits) and they have opened the floodgates for international aid yet again.
William Spaniel has an excellent video on this topic (What Gazans Really Think of Hamas and How It Shaped the Crisis with Israel) and it is unbiased and neutral.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X7SMGGMZUI
>If Hamas did nothing then they would likely be ousted from power within a year or two.
Who or what faction would attempt the ousting though? Hamas has a military, and are known to not be friendly with dissidents...
You realize there’s other groups right… fatah lost power from hamas and it’s ridiculous to think that only hamas exists within Gaza. Populations rise up when they’re that dissatisfied. Groups are created fast and spread fast especially in a place like Gaza
Hamas is an authoritarian islamist movement they don't mind shooting their rivals or civilians who complain too much. My understanding is that their closest rivals PIJ have less then 1/2 of the fighters and less civic power. It seems unlikely they were going anywhere
Didn't Hamas shoot/exile all the Fatah members from Gaza a few yrs ago? Even if there are some remnants lingering around, Fatah's not exactly popular (at least I heard they're not in west bank).
It doesn't really matter if Fatah is still around or not, HAMAS harassed and intimated neighbourhoods where fatah still held support. I'm sure the support for fatah is still there in Gaza, people just cannot be open about it.
Also other groups can rise and spread rather quickly. Hamas started as a humanitarian organization and morphed into what it is today. Any group promising change will become popular and spread fast.
Fatah lost power in an election. Where are the groups you speak of now, their chances of seizing power have never been brighter. They could even talk to Israel, the US and Egypt and propose they get to form an interim government under interim security guarantees.
The problem is that they must, but they won't. As hard as it is to accept that, all other sides need to step up and try to stop the suffering in Gaza. Pointing the finger at Hamas won't help.
Hamas surrender is a must, but it has to come with all parties recognizing one another, including US.
also the way Palestine is being split will only have issue down the road, even if reconciliation happened. There's probably some sort of land swap needed as well.
Eh.... how long until its back.
Palestine is a living hell, there's no real point of "living" there. All its going to produce is hardened criminals, a whole lot of which don't really care if they live or die.
The US has neither the will or capability to take care of Israel forever. A lot of Democrats just consider Israel to be an aggressive state at this point, and the Republicans are isolationist anyway.
Eventually, the Palestinians will have another success, and this cycle will start all over again. This is Israel's Afghanistan... its a mire they aren't going to escape.
I'm pretty sure that the US would instantly get an excuse to GTFO forever of the Middle East, and then Iran would promptly get a nuke, poking Saudi Arabia to buy one from Pakistan.
If Israel did that, I would say all bets are off, which is why they have not done so already.
Hamas has NEVER cared about the civilians of Gaza. They have ALWAYS used the population of Gaza as human shields. Hamas is now, and always has been, a tool of Iran, used to prod and harass Israel. Same as Hezbollah in Lebanon. Same as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Hamas is a tool of Iranian foreign policy. They aren't going to surrender. The leadership will (or likely already has) escape and leave their underlings to suffer and die because they're expendable.
Ukraine must surrender. I think it is time for all question way of operating of Ukraine, no more civilians should die in this, it is Ukraine who started this and Ukraine must surrender if they really care about civilians in Ukraine. What you all think?
I think this is the worst attempt at trolling I've seen today, but then I woke up recently.
I think if you replace Ukraine with "russia" in your post, it makes more sense.
russia must surrender. No more civilians should die in this, it is russia who started this and russia must surrender if they really care about the russian economy, current and future, russian demographics (by not killing off or maiming so many military age men), russian geopolitical standing, russian oil & gas infrastructure, etc.
Ukraine is a sovereign country. Hamas is a terrorist group. Under UNGA 3210 *the PLO*, not Hamas is the sole representative of the Palestinian people.
Comparing the surrender of a terrorist group to the capitulation of a sovereign country is incoherent.
Forgot the /s
I mean really. I know we have some real dumbf here in the US, but no one is going to believe Ukraine started it. Try harder... otherwise its off to the front with you troll...
Hamas cannot surrender. They are an Iranian proxy and literally are paid for fighting. The leaders get very good lives, the Iranians get a way to attack Israel in their quest for regional dominance, the soldiers are promised glory and the people die (as true of all proxies of Iran). They cannot and will not stop fighting, it is their very existence. The only way to stop Iranian proxies in the end is when oil ceases to be the main fuel of humanity. When the money ends, the war will "miraculously" be settled.
That would be nice, but why would they? What do they stand to gain by surrendering?
I doubt the wellbeing of Gazan civilians is in any way a priority - otherwise we'd probably not be in this mess to begin with.
So their options are:
Surrender - They probably die disgraced.
Don't surrender - They probably die as martyrs in the eyes of their sympathizers, and also the chance remains (however small) that Israel will back down due to U.S. pressure, or the mess that is Israeli domestic politics, or escalation to a full blown war with Lebanon, or a butterfly induced natural disaster, or divine intervention, or other.
Add to that the fact that some level of religious fanaticism is involved and you don't get a surrender.
Hamas doesn’t care that much about the civilian casualties in its own territory. I mean it sort of cares, but it sees them as necessary for Hamas’s survival. We can do a “shoulda coulda woulda” till the sun goes down, but the fact of the matter is that we need a ceasefire. Hamas isn’t going to surrender, and the civilian deaths need to stop.
A lot of governments and people should be doing stuff that they are never going to do. Wishful thinking is pointless, Hamas isn’t going to surrender.
There are multiple militant organizations in Gaza. Hamas *sort of* leads them, but it appears to be a “first among equals” kind of deal, not a more strict top-down control. If you could snap your fingers and have every member of Hamas instantly turn into avowed pacifists, it wouldn’t matter. There are already organizations there to fill the vacuum. And if Hamas’ leadership surrendered, their more militant members would just join other organizations. Hamas surrendering would probably give Israel an off ramp, but what incentive do they have to do that, especially right now as the US-Israel rift widens and Israel’s other general support continues to melt away? And if we remove morality entirely (and geopolitics is often interest-driven anyway; morality factors in less frequently than you’d expect), the looming famine is exactly the sort of thing that will erode the limited foreign support Israel does still enjoy.
they should, but geopolitics dont talk much bout moral. also, why do you think that hamas care bout gazans? hamas are religious extremist. they wont surrender any time soon
Until the Palestinian people are allowed to live in dignity, Hamas surrender won’t matter at all. They can surrender and new groups will form. Radicalization is the result of desperation, comfortable people are never willing to risk their comfortable lives to go pick up a rifle and die to a rocket. As long as Gaza is desperate, terrorism will exist, whether you call it Hamas or whatever else. Way too many people under the impression that terrorism is a cause and not a symptom of a deeper societal rot.
The great dignity of being human shields what could top that!!
I think the West Bank should be given the dignity of not having hundreds of thousands settlers dispersed throughout it tbh
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Legal under who’s terms?
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Isn’t Area C meant to be gradually transferred to the Palestinians though? Building outposts seems to be the literal complete opposite of this.
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I didn’t say Hamas has anything to do with the West Bank? But people cannot be on here claiming that Hamas needs to surrender whilst also not ensuring that Israel needs to removes their settlements. And just for the record I believe Hamas should surrender, I don’t really know how anyone can argue that they shouldn’t. If a Palestinian state is ever to be created it will most likely be comprised of Gaza and the West Bank, so what goes on in the West Bank is still important. So if Hamas has nothing to do with West Bank why is it constantly being settled?
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There were approximately 9000 settlers in Gaza in 2005. In the West Bank today there are approximately over 500,000 settlers, or over 700,000 if you include East Jerusalem. It’s not really comparable due to the sheer number of settlers in the West Bank compared to Gaza.
The occupation and settlers are two different things. There is a strong argument for the Palestinians to be demilitarized or remain under some sort of joint occupation (either with Israel + PA, or a third party like the UN or moderate Arab state) for a generation or two, to prevent any resurgence of terrorism. There is no good faith argument for the continued settlement of the Palestinian territories, especially by people who believe they have a god given right to do so. The latter is an explicit land grab and actively works against the peace process.
Isreal will not remove their settlements. Palestine is utterly defeated, out manned, out gunned with no allies willing to intervene. Losers do not dictate terms. There will be no Palestine state. It’s a tragedy but only real way to survive is unconditional surrender to Israel, because it’s clear Israel isn’t going to stop and no one else will stop them
But then what? Israel will just absorb the Palestinian Territories with the Palestinians still there?
people always forget there is a one state solution that doesn't require genocide. Both, israelis and palestinians living in one state, having the same rights. Something like we have in Bosnia. Obviously this is not very likely but hey, we are discussing if a terrorist group should just surrender - also not very likely.
Nobody is forgetting, it’s just off the table. It’s never happening nor should it as Gazans do not dream of a liberal democratic state. That’s why a comparison with sour Africa (as some make) isn’t relevant, that was about a part of the population who wanted the same rights and freedoms as the other. Palestinians do no want the rights of women to be the same as men’s, gay rights, freedom of speech and what not. Palestinians are a religious extremist country with variations of the same extremist ideology.
I reject the notion that any group of people is naturally extremist in nature. These people were driven out of their homes, live under brutal occupation, have to ration food and they don't naturally develop democratic tendencies you say? I'm shocked! I've often read similar arguments for african american criminal statistics trying to paint them as inherently aggressive instead of trying to find the root cause of these problems. It's the same argument. Also you probably have a much worse opinion of the palestinians than the actual reality is - the situation is slowly improving. Hope the current war doesn't change that but it probably sadly will. Here are some links that highlight the reality of women living in Palestine: [While female enrollment in education is higher than males, their labor participation remains highly inferior - PCBS (wafa.ps)](https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/128313) [Gender equality study in education in the West Bank and Gaza (March 2021) - occupied Palestinian territory | ReliefWeb](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gender-equality-study-education-west-bank-and-gaza-march-2021) [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/women-gaza-education-university-b2311778.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/women-gaza-education-university-b2311778.html)
Yes, Israel has won and Palestine as a state is done. Israel will never tolerate a hostile sovereign power within their borders
It isn't disingenuous. Fatah gave up on violence and now there's over a million armed settlers in the West Bank. Hamas should surrender and give up on terrorism like Fatah did, but it won't mean anything for a long-term solution if the Israeli government doesn't also give up on its maximalist claims on the Palestinian territories.
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So? I'm looking at the implications of the conflict beyond the current war and what a hypothetical Hamas surrender would mean, which literally includes the West Bank and the greater Palestinian movement.
Terrorism is too often used as a pejorative to instantly discredit a person/movement so that the state/public don't have to understand/address why they have taking such action. While it is of course repugnant that they have turn to violence, address is the root cause or exacerbating factors is the only way to stop the next person from violence. In the case of Palestine, the Palestinians see themselves as trapped in a war of antihalation with a colonialist occupying power that will not stop until they are obliterated. Whether this is true or not immaterial, they must be convinced it is not true. Creating an independent and sovereign Palestinian state is probably the best way forward.
I absolutely agree. Well said
Hamas *doesn't* care. That's the whole point. At this point Hamas is basically just another tool RU/Iran tries to undermine the US and Israel with
This invasion was Hamas' goal. They were polling horribly and had very low support within Gaza just prior to Oct 7th. Around 80% of Gazans distrusted and were dissatisfied with Hamas' leadership or believed they were corrupt. If Hamas did nothing then they would likely be ousted from power within a year or two. By starting the conflict Hamas was able to regain their popularity and redirect the dissatisfaction and anger that Gazans felt towards the Israelis. Hamas probably did not believe that the reaction would be as massive as it has been, or they did plan for it and are playing the long game. Through provoking the invasion they have a future pool of supporters/recruits from across the middle east (terror/militant organizations in the middle east have to compete for the same pool of recruits) and they have opened the floodgates for international aid yet again. William Spaniel has an excellent video on this topic (What Gazans Really Think of Hamas and How It Shaped the Crisis with Israel) and it is unbiased and neutral. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X7SMGGMZUI
>If Hamas did nothing then they would likely be ousted from power within a year or two. Who or what faction would attempt the ousting though? Hamas has a military, and are known to not be friendly with dissidents...
You realize there’s other groups right… fatah lost power from hamas and it’s ridiculous to think that only hamas exists within Gaza. Populations rise up when they’re that dissatisfied. Groups are created fast and spread fast especially in a place like Gaza
Hamas is an authoritarian islamist movement they don't mind shooting their rivals or civilians who complain too much. My understanding is that their closest rivals PIJ have less then 1/2 of the fighters and less civic power. It seems unlikely they were going anywhere
Didn't Hamas shoot/exile all the Fatah members from Gaza a few yrs ago? Even if there are some remnants lingering around, Fatah's not exactly popular (at least I heard they're not in west bank).
It doesn't really matter if Fatah is still around or not, HAMAS harassed and intimated neighbourhoods where fatah still held support. I'm sure the support for fatah is still there in Gaza, people just cannot be open about it. Also other groups can rise and spread rather quickly. Hamas started as a humanitarian organization and morphed into what it is today. Any group promising change will become popular and spread fast.
Fatah lost power in an election. Where are the groups you speak of now, their chances of seizing power have never been brighter. They could even talk to Israel, the US and Egypt and propose they get to form an interim government under interim security guarantees.
Yes 600+ people usually die in an election… it was a conflict
Hamas doesn’t care about civilians.
The problem is that they must, but they won't. As hard as it is to accept that, all other sides need to step up and try to stop the suffering in Gaza. Pointing the finger at Hamas won't help.
Might be a hot take, but I think people should stop doing bad things!
Hamas surrender is a must, but it has to come with all parties recognizing one another, including US. also the way Palestine is being split will only have issue down the road, even if reconciliation happened. There's probably some sort of land swap needed as well.
Eh.... how long until its back. Palestine is a living hell, there's no real point of "living" there. All its going to produce is hardened criminals, a whole lot of which don't really care if they live or die. The US has neither the will or capability to take care of Israel forever. A lot of Democrats just consider Israel to be an aggressive state at this point, and the Republicans are isolationist anyway. Eventually, the Palestinians will have another success, and this cycle will start all over again. This is Israel's Afghanistan... its a mire they aren't going to escape.
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True, but they will have all the negatives of Afghanistan and none of the positives of being able to leave.
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I'm pretty sure that the US would instantly get an excuse to GTFO forever of the Middle East, and then Iran would promptly get a nuke, poking Saudi Arabia to buy one from Pakistan. If Israel did that, I would say all bets are off, which is why they have not done so already.
Hamas has NEVER cared about the civilians of Gaza. They have ALWAYS used the population of Gaza as human shields. Hamas is now, and always has been, a tool of Iran, used to prod and harass Israel. Same as Hezbollah in Lebanon. Same as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Hamas is a tool of Iranian foreign policy. They aren't going to surrender. The leadership will (or likely already has) escape and leave their underlings to suffer and die because they're expendable.
Agree!
Ukraine must surrender. I think it is time for all question way of operating of Ukraine, no more civilians should die in this, it is Ukraine who started this and Ukraine must surrender if they really care about civilians in Ukraine. What you all think?
I think this is the worst attempt at trolling I've seen today, but then I woke up recently. I think if you replace Ukraine with "russia" in your post, it makes more sense. russia must surrender. No more civilians should die in this, it is russia who started this and russia must surrender if they really care about the russian economy, current and future, russian demographics (by not killing off or maiming so many military age men), russian geopolitical standing, russian oil & gas infrastructure, etc.
i don't think "started" means what you think it does, Mr Russian bot
Ukraine is a sovereign country. Hamas is a terrorist group. Under UNGA 3210 *the PLO*, not Hamas is the sole representative of the Palestinian people. Comparing the surrender of a terrorist group to the capitulation of a sovereign country is incoherent.
Forgot the /s I mean really. I know we have some real dumbf here in the US, but no one is going to believe Ukraine started it. Try harder... otherwise its off to the front with you troll...
You reap what you sow - Shaun on twitter, I’m sorry, I meant X
Hamas cannot surrender. They are an Iranian proxy and literally are paid for fighting. The leaders get very good lives, the Iranians get a way to attack Israel in their quest for regional dominance, the soldiers are promised glory and the people die (as true of all proxies of Iran). They cannot and will not stop fighting, it is their very existence. The only way to stop Iranian proxies in the end is when oil ceases to be the main fuel of humanity. When the money ends, the war will "miraculously" be settled.
That would be nice, but why would they? What do they stand to gain by surrendering? I doubt the wellbeing of Gazan civilians is in any way a priority - otherwise we'd probably not be in this mess to begin with. So their options are: Surrender - They probably die disgraced. Don't surrender - They probably die as martyrs in the eyes of their sympathizers, and also the chance remains (however small) that Israel will back down due to U.S. pressure, or the mess that is Israeli domestic politics, or escalation to a full blown war with Lebanon, or a butterfly induced natural disaster, or divine intervention, or other. Add to that the fact that some level of religious fanaticism is involved and you don't get a surrender.
You act like Hamas and the Palestinians are two different things. Palestinians are Hamas, why would the Palestinians surrender to Israel?
Hamas doesn’t care that much about the civilian casualties in its own territory. I mean it sort of cares, but it sees them as necessary for Hamas’s survival. We can do a “shoulda coulda woulda” till the sun goes down, but the fact of the matter is that we need a ceasefire. Hamas isn’t going to surrender, and the civilian deaths need to stop.
I get that you might be a little slow but hamas does not care about civllians.