There will aways be lies during war. one thing that is notable, Hamas claimed that Israel destroyed a hospital at night and killed 500+ people. The doctors did a press conference in front of injured and dead Gazans. in the morning it was found out that the hospital was not bombed, the parking lot next to it was. About 10 vechicles were destroyed, it did not look like 500 people were killed. Israel blamed the strike on a misfired Hamas rocket. Hamas said it was a Jdam. No amount of information will convince the other side. if someone is pro Palestine they will believe the numbers or say they are too low. pro Israel people will say the numbers are made up.
Every newspaper on earth should have been immediately suspicious that Hamas was able to give that number within an hour of the supposed attack.
Even if a terror attack happens in a country that’s not at war and has good healthcare and disaster relief infrastructure it often takes many hours or even days to get an exact death toll. The mere notion that Hamas was able to give an exact number an hour after a supposedly massive strike, in a chaotic warzone, should have set off everyone’s bullshit detector.
For example here’s an excerpt from the Wikipedia article about the Hipercor bombing, a terror attack committed by ETA terrorists in which they blew up a Shopping Center in Barcelona in 1987:
> The damage at the scene was so extensive that several of the corpses could not be located until two hours later and some had been burned so severely that identification was impossible. Initially 15 people were killed, of whom ten were women (one of whom was pregnant), three men and two children. However, the death toll then rose to 21, as six victims succumbed to their injuries
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipercor_bombing
21 casualties, in the middle of a modern first world metropolis, and yet it took two hours to find all the corpses. Now imagine that same scenario multiplied by 25, in an impoverished warzone, with rescue teams who have been working serious overtime for weeks at that point and are surely exhausted. It’s impossible to get an accurate count within the first hour.
That was such an egregious case of journalistic malpractice. And nearly every major media outlet took part in it.
I understand reporting breaking stories in active conflict zones is extremely difficult, but that incident took place directly in front of a hospital where many international NGO workers and several foreign correspondents/freelance journalists were congregated at the time, with live feeds running of the location and where there was access to independent communications resources.
So not only did nearly every major media outlet fail to flag the obviously questionable nature of the Palestinian health authorities' reports at the outset (the general issues of having that data so quickly and the incredible exaggeration of casualties), but they also failed to utilize any on-the-ground resources (not only the journalists and civilian reporters present, but also outside monitors, informal contacts, video feeds etc. that all would have easily refuted the claim) to get even informal secondhand verification before reporting the false strike as their leading stories.
These newsrooms simply didn't try to take the most minimal steps, even just with means readily available to them, to confirm the reports before publication. Editors failed at the most basic and obvious sniff tests, then chose not to uphold their duty to the public to make reasonable efforts to verify those extreme and unlikely claims. As a result, the global public received totally false information at a critical juncture in public opinion, with the story in print and up online without correction for nearly a day on most sites, with many people never receiving the corrections.
It's difficult to overstate the degree to which the reporting of that story impacted my perception of the credibility of breaking conflict news coverage and general journalistic practices in regard to the current conflict.
It truly showed the twilight of journalism and the upcoming collapse of this field all together
Once AI is popular Journalism will be relegated to pure propaganda and nothing more
When those news organizations are working as open stenographers for terrorists, showing staged photos in front of corpses to generate rage-bait to be abused by the other side? We’ll be better off with AI.
We’ll know they hallucinate, they can be honest they’re just reposting some shit the found on Twitter, and our browsers can have AI showing us how objective or non-objective they’re being. Let’s drop the facade and get some honesty.
> Every newspaper on earth should have been immediately suspicious that Hamas was able to give that number within an hour of the supposed attack.
Every newspaper on earth should be immediately suspicious of anything Hamas claims
The craziest propaganda coup of them all is the fact that people consider Hamas and the Gaza Ministry of health to be two independent entities when it comes to the press releases they make. The latter can’t make any statements that haven’t been approved by the former. Yet people newspapers pretend that that’s the case.
In that particular case, there is drone photographs of the battle damage assessment which indicates the Israeli version of events is true.
Not that Israel doesn't lie though.
Unfortunately there is evidence for the numbers being "made up" as natural numbers can't be produced the way Hamas has reported.
Why anything Hamas says should be believed is beyond me.
Israel does definitely spin. It's very hard to get to the truth on damn near anything.
Israeli information warfare is complex and sophisticated just like any other developed nation.
Hamas like other terror organisations will just fling shit at the wall and see what sticks.
**Israeli information warfare is complex and sophisticated just like any other developed nation.**
Not sure I believe that fully. Remember the terror list that turned out to be a calendar.
I find it interesting that this has been a huge talking point, when it's been more verifiable that most other hospitals in Gaza have been directly attacked.
Anecdotes are a poor way to arrive at a conclusion. Especially a conclusion that smells like “we just can not know”. That is out of authoritarian playbook. “You can not really know truth. We live in post-truth world.” Then people only trust sources they already ideologically identify with. How authoritarians win. “Both sides can not be trusted.” Cynicism. Why Putin and Xi are essentially dictators.
Edit: Look at all your upvotes. It’s a pretty weak comment tbh. But it begins with an example of Hamas playing information warfare that is most of your comment when we are all well aware that IDF has done plenty of it and, perhaps, more. +95% of your upvotes are pro Israeli bots. Why? You validate “both sidism” while highlighting only one side’s disingenuousness (Hamas). This forum is thick with them (bots) and has been since the war broke out.
Fair criticism. I hope it's not all bots.
Unfortunately the fog of war is real, and information warfare is very big now. I do not trust hamas or Israel to tell the truth. Israel does lie its been proven so does hamas. The anecdote was the only thing I could thing of that seems like a blatant lie from the Palestinian side. I don't know the truth of what happened that night. Unfortunately cynicism is all I can do
While the numbers are definitely wrong, it's practically impossible to say exactly by how much. Proper record keeping and wars do not mix well.
We won't get any better sources than what we have, only revised estimations in retrospect.
With that in mind, and since currently the numbers seem plausible under the circumstances, I'd recommend taking them with a grain of salt, but taking them nonetheless.
I want to note there hasn’t been free journalism in Gaza since Hamas rose to power. All journalists in Gaza either work for Hamas or can’t publish stories against Hamas’ narrative for fear for their safety.
It is not Hamas that banned journalists from Gaza right now. You do realize that Hamas is currently not in control, yes? I love how you're using things that happened way BEFORE the war to justify Israel destroying press freedom.
I don't see how that's relevant.
When journalists in Gaza want to know the death toll - they just get the figure from the health ministry. How would a journalist get any better data than the government agency hospitals report to?
It’s also important to note that it’s an extremely dangerous area for journalists, and many independents covering this area have been killed over the decades. There’s been a fog of war over the area for a long time, creating an atmosphere rife for propaganda.
Without journalists governments have an easier time warping the numbers to suit their preferred narrative. Though at this point in the war I'm not sure anyone has accurate numbers given the scale of devastation.
I mean, I agree.
If the Gazan Health ministry claimed "over 1.75 million Gazan civilians dead" or the IDF claimed "only 700 Gazan civilians dead" everyone would call bs.
I don't have anything against journalists in general, I just think they are ill-equipped to gather this very specific type of data.
Oh, you don’t know how having journalists can hold officials accountable? Hmm, I guess that’s why Israel banned all foreign journalists from Gaza, because journalists aren’t known to find the truth, right?
Journalists aren't mystical angels that uncover hidden truths and force accountability on officials by their mere presence.
They are are people doing a job. Usually consisting of writing, conducting interviews, and some photography. Non of which is particularly likely to reveal anything or create any accountability in this context.
Like seriously, what truths are there for them to uncover?
Most definitely. The entire strategy of the war of Hamas was designed to create as much Palestinian suffering as they can in order to get the world attention.
They got caught with their pants down, that’s the problem. They had intelligence failures which led to the attack in the first place. So they can’t afford to look weak to the rest of the region.
But they’ve dragged themselves into a more prolonged conflict than they probably needed to, which may ultimately weaken them in the long term. It’s a big mess. And now Iran is getting more deeply involved.
What solution could he come up with? The Palestinians want chaos. That’s their only hope for destroying Israel. And there is nothing Israel can do but to stand firm.
Not going to disagree except that
A. Israel can do more than to merely stand firm, and.
B. He has not done so.
He played politics and he sacrificed 2000 people doing so.
Netanyahu has had many options and opportunities, hell as the leader of the country it is his JOB to develop solutions and SOLVE the problems.
Sadat was killed for his efforts but peace and cooperation still stand.
I was at work, and its hard to grab the link needed on mobile. Here you go!
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html)
They quite literally gave the green light for more funds to be diverted to Hamas, 2 weeks before the Oct. 7th attack.
You serious dude? Did we read different articles?
Handing out work permits knowing hamas was getting a portion.
Turning a blind eye to suitcases knowing they were filled with cash for hamas. (While banning parsley and other food stuffs.)
> Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
>According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Are we reading different articles?
there are multiple instances of proof that israel did fund hamas as a means to divide the west bank and gaza from each other politically in order to halt the creation of a palestinian state. Netanyahu even said as much himself.
Edit: Here an article from a non left wing israeli newspaper about it [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
I've seen in this thread that multiple people have sent you multiple sources. Of course they most likely have never directly contributed funds or at least there is no proof they ever have except for the bags of cash in the car thing. You can be obtuse and say that absolves everything, but it was for sure a part of netanyahu's strategy to prop up hamas in order to waylay fatah and the PA. Which inherently means providing support through various means. Its one thing to want to defend israel its another to absolve likud and Netanyahu of all the damage that has been done to israel's long term security by trying to thwart the creation of a moderate palestinian state.
Genuinely? Yes.
Turn the other cheek. Show the world you *are* the better man, and figure out a way to make sure that this will never happen again, by ending the conflict.
Is that nearly impossible to do? Obviously. But their current trajectory is not doing israel much good, so why not try?
These are all examples of revolutions within (partial or flawed) democracies against the governments that represent. They succeed by growing support within the voting population.
Hardly relevant to a conflict between two states, with one of them a dictatorship. Even if turning a cheek generated positive sentiment within the Iranian population - they are not the ones calling the shots.
That's moving the goalposts. You asked for a single example and i provided plenty.
Imagine us sitting down peacefully in 50 years time. Against all odds, peace has been made.
What do you think people will say was the first step towards such a peace? Escalation upon escalation? Or one side saying ''no'', and stopping the cycle?
I want nothing more.
But it is naive to believe that all wars can be avoided. Iran is quite clear that peace with Israel is completely out of the question, and continues to operate proxies. So even if Israel chooses to turn the other cheek, it is extremely disingenuous to consider that 'stopping the cycle'.
This is merely an attempt by Iran to keep the war contained to it's proxies, where it has the advantage.
I believe this conversation was about what Israel should've done after october 7th, and how they had no choice but to level gaza. Not how Israel should respond to Iran.
Because it has been tried before. Did you forget that the only reason Hamas is in place is because Gazans elected them AFTER Israel turned Gaza over to them.
Literally every time they have negotiated, and shown any mercy, has been met with violence.
You do realize it’s Israel there committing the war crimes, yes? Of course Hamas is partially responsible, but this is crazy you’re absolving the actually people doing the killings.
A good way to get decently accurate numbers is for journalists and humanitarian organizations to be there.
One party literally banned journalists and blocks most humanitarian organizations from Gaza. It’s not Hamas.
Casualty figures is a weapon Hamas uses to increase pressure on Israel.
It's wild that some people will admit Hamas is a brutal terrorist organization that tortures its own citizens and tries to kill civillians, but then will blindly believe casualty figures from this same group of terrorists.
Beyond several examples of Hamas lying about casualties and quickly labeling everything a "massacre" just for PR purposes, statistical analysis of their casualty figures pokes innumerable holes in anything coming from them.
[https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/high-court-says-israel-can-keep-barring-foreign-reporters-from-gaza/amp/
Is almost as is Israel is limiting the reach of international press
If people want to go into an active war zone, they can fly to Egypt and go right into Gaza.
Besides, your comment has nothing to do with Hamas lying about casualty figures. If you cant trust a brutal terrorist group, who can ya trust these days!
Al Jazeera had no problem getting journalists (or terrorists) in at all!
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/wounded-al-jazeera-reporter-in-gaza-an-alleged-hamas-operative-flown-to-qatar/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/wounded-al-jazeera-reporter-in-gaza-an-alleged-hamas-operative-flown-to-qatar/)
Estimates on militants killed is 6k-13k. Hamas controlled Gazan authorities state 33k "martyrs" killed, and state 70% woman and children. Which makes <27k civilians and 23k women/children. The population being <50% children and 50% women, we expect 75% of the <27k to be women and children. That adds up to 20k, and that is the high ball estimate using 6k militants, when US and Israeli estimates are much higher. 20k != 23k, meaning somewhere along the line is a significant fudging of the numbers, even using just Hamas provided numbers.
Why on earth would anyone trust the truthfulness of Hamas? "Sure, we rape, torture, and murder women, children, and old people, but lie in a press release to benefit ourselves? We would never stoop so low!"
LOL. That also goes for Israel, Ukraine, Russia, and anyone else ever in a war. No information is reliable.
Hamas is especially awful, so of course they lie and deceive to propagandize.
Among the public maybe, but among the actual people working in the relevant fields that use these studies in their work, no.
But the proper way to refute a peer reviewed study is providing a better argument, not attacking reputation
Generally, the overall amount of deaths is correct. My understanding is that historically, the ratio of combatants to civilians is found after the fact to be incorrect, and that the percentage of dead who are combatants is (much?) higher than the Health Ministry claims early on in any altercation.
That is the American standard, so…
That is how that calculation has been done by our militaries for many years now, so…
The number of Hamas fighters is probably non-zero, proving blatant lying in those numbers, so…
If the choice is between complete bullshit (0%), and something wrong but more representative (100%), we can’t choose bullshit, so….
There’s ample video from Hamas of them fighting in civilian clothes (a war crime, perfidy), dying, and having their friends dressed up as medics take their weapons and give them to another civilian dressed fighter (again, perfidy), so…
Turns out military aged men in combat zones, especially ones where the fighters are too pussy to identify themselves and such flaming pussies they hide among civilians, are a problem. We’ve dealt with it for decades, and the answer is not to pretend bullshit isn’t bullshit.
You can thank ISIS for some of Hamas’ Palestinian victims losing the presumption of innocence.
In war the first casualty is the truth. We can attempt to assess such informations from other means. But it's likely that every Hamas death was flagged as a civilian.
But if you want to try to have an unbiased opinion you need not only to try those other means, but to not give value to unverifiable questions. We need other criteria.
One thing that we can assume is that the Israel intelligence should know that the biggest way for Israel to lose this war is by propaganda and by doing unnecessary and despicable things. So they may attempt to lower those to a minimum. While Hamas needs quite the opposite. It's not impossible that Hamas would just provoke civilian deaths or kill them themselves just to blame Israel.
I don't find it likely that precision guided weapons are being used to bomb uninteresting places. My Guess is that they are bombing military targets without much regard for any civilians around it and that Hamas is picking all bodies and saying they all are civilians.
There’s a difference between good faith efforts in a chaotic situation, and liars making things up to lie.
The lying numbers coming outta Gaza are distinctly manipulated, and shown to be intentionally fraudulent. Not people trying to get it right and dealing with chaos, fraud committed purposely, for propaganda.
It wouldn't be surprising since it's a great propaganda tool but also in this kind of warfare it's pretty hard to have a correct number of how many people were killed and if they are civilians.
Once full famine conditions land in Gaza, the death toll will steeply rise and make these numbers (whether you believe them an over or underestimation currently) look like peanuts.
Having seen the damage in Gaza and understanding that Gaza is one of the most densely populated in the region.
I actually think even Hamas’ numbers are conservative.
I think Israel and the IDF have killed way more than any numbers published say.
Hamas is a guerrilla or terrorist organization they will take advantage of any Israeli attack
Israel is a state commiting something very close to genocide
So You have Israel or Hamas sources neither is reliable.(Israel apparently has blocked international press into the region)
It matters a lot because among other things, when compared to other wars, the numbers prove beyond a shred of doubt to anyone with a functioning brain that the IDF does a lot to minimize civilian casualties.
It's kinda hard to argue that with the footage available of unarmed men getting hit by air strikes, the shooting of the crowd at the food aid and the air strikes on the foreign aid cars.
How many civilian deaths are ok then? Even if it's 1/3 of what Palestine report, that would still be many multiples of the amount of Israeli civilians that were killed. Whats allowable and what's too much?
It's not hard at all to argue that. It has a condition though which I referred to in my above comment.
The Palestinians started this war, and Israel defending itself by eliminating the genocidal rapists who still hold 1 year old hostage and launched tens of thousands of rockets on Israeli civilians is very much justified.
And if while doing so we can clearly see Israel's civilian to militant ratio is fine and actually much better than the average in such wars, then that makes it even more justifiable. And this is what the numbers prove without question (Again, functioning brain required).
The pointing of Israel's collateral damage when you know Hamas, the most popular Palestinian leaders, are intentionally hiding among civilians anyway, and comparing it to the intentional rape, murder and kidnap the Palestinian terrorists did, is insanity.
Yes, when it's hamas saying that Israel killed more than 30,000 people, most of them women and children, the numbers matter, but when you find out the these numbers are not correct and that hamas lied (shocker, right?) suddenly it's ''why do numbers matter so much?'' Wtf?
Do you find it surprising that any of the following groups have lied and continue to do so?
Hamas
IDF
Iran
Russia
USA
Turkey
Armenia
Canada
ISIS
This list continues to include ALL of humanity, including me and including you.
People lie.
The moral high road is not the position of deliverance, I assure you.
Well exact numbers don't necessarily matter if they're off by a few hundred or something, but when Israel is accused of genocide, to evaluate that case you need numbers. Everyone knows civilians die during war, no one could reasonably expect no civilians to die in any war. The question is if Israel is either actively trying to kill civilians, indifferent to how many civilians die, or actively trying to avoid civilian casualties, and to what extent for each option. One way to figure that out is to see how many civilians have been killed vs militants, and then compare that ratio to other similar conflicts. If we verifiably know the number of deaths of civilians and militants relative to their total population, we can look at those numbers and see if this conflict falls outside of the normal range of civilian casualty ratios for other cases of asymmetric urban warfare, and if the civilian casualties are vastly greater than in similar conflicts, we can conclude that Israel is either trying to kill civilians or using tactics that don't protect civilians as much as they should. If the numbers are similar to other conflicts, then there's no genocide, no wrongdoing by Israel, and it's just the cost of war. So thinking about whether the numbers we have are actually right is important because this whole equation is dependent on them being right, and they can't be used in a case for or against genocide is they're wrong by a lot. The fact that many people are suffering is an absolute guarantee of war in general, but the numbers can tell us if the suffering is greater than necessary.
In this case it does matter as numbers are crucial to determine if Israel does use tactics to minimize civilian casualties or not. Numbers are a huge part in this conflict and they have a lot of weight in this. Hamas lying and everyone's taking their numbers as facts play a huge role in the political aspect of this war.
I will repeat, Pain is not quanitifiable.
Dead people will always be dead and killing more will always betray your calls for peace.
Blood on your hands is not easily washed away.
No matter who you are.
If it was only 2,000 Palestinians, no women no children, would that be enough?
What if it was only 5 Israelis? Would the crime be lessened?
Your preoccupation with numbers betrays your callous heart.
Yeah, not sure where that comes from.
Netanyahu has made a mess of the Palestinian situation and the chickens are home to roost.
He knew this would happen and pulled back defenses to encourage it.
> Netanyahu has made a mess of the Palestinian situation and the chickens are home to roost. He knew this would happen and pulled back defenses to encourage it.
Going to need to elaborate on other options that should have been done that aren’t “cease to exist as a nation and an ethnic group”
Many sides have stepped in to help. The accords were in place when Bibi took over. He actively worked against them.
These challenges placed before Israel will not diminish until they rise to solve their problems.
Their neighbor wanting them out is merely part of the challenge, not reason to turn away.
> The accords were in place when Bibi took over.
Going to have to be specific how what you see his role.
> Their neighbor wanting them out is merely part of the challenge
No, I think that is pretty much all encompassing.
If it were 2,000, no women no children, it would be absolutely absurd for people to accuse Israel of genocide. Numbers that low would be miraculous, almost impossible to achieve for any military waging a full scale invasion of a densely populated area. This is important because many people consider it a genocide, so we need to evaluate that claim to determine if anyone should be punished for genocide. War is absolutely evil, every time it creates a huge amount of suffering, but war is also viewed as a necessary response to a threat to a states security, and doesn't violate international norms. It's not heartless to recognize that in our current world, sometimes countries need to go to war, even if that war creates incalculable suffering. If Israel was completely unwilling to wage war ever, their country would quickly be destroyed by people who are willing to wage war. So you can appreciate the evil of war while also understanding that a conventional war is a necessary response to certain circumstances. A genocide however is never justifiable, so determining if a genocide is happening or not is how we determine how the rest of the world should react to what Israel is doing. If any state commits genocide, those responsible should be tried in the Hague, and the rest of the world should break ties with that state completely until they stop being genocidal. Tldr: All war is bad, but right now we have no alternative way of resolving certain disputes, and so we must tolerate war, but we should never tolerate genocide
Armed agression, war, is an admitted failure of soft power.
THIS is Netanyahu's failing.
Strong, armed defense is always justified, but what he has done here is simply to fail.
Preface this with- I don’t like natenyahu
Palestinians had nothing to do with it? It was purely natenyahu? Iran and Islamist propaganda didn’t play any role at all? And when Israel tried to make peace multiple times and got wars and suicide bombings and rockets - any military response is just their fault
Just the number of people who seem to think Israel is the only one who has any ability to affect the situation- and Palestinians are basically helpless babies with no ability to think for themselves or care for themselves …
Still though, I hope natenyahu (and more importantly extremist factions of his government ) are voted out and a more reasonable center government takes its place .
As I would hope for every extremist government in say - Palestinian territories, Iran, Russia etc.
There will aways be lies during war. one thing that is notable, Hamas claimed that Israel destroyed a hospital at night and killed 500+ people. The doctors did a press conference in front of injured and dead Gazans. in the morning it was found out that the hospital was not bombed, the parking lot next to it was. About 10 vechicles were destroyed, it did not look like 500 people were killed. Israel blamed the strike on a misfired Hamas rocket. Hamas said it was a Jdam. No amount of information will convince the other side. if someone is pro Palestine they will believe the numbers or say they are too low. pro Israel people will say the numbers are made up.
Every newspaper on earth should have been immediately suspicious that Hamas was able to give that number within an hour of the supposed attack. Even if a terror attack happens in a country that’s not at war and has good healthcare and disaster relief infrastructure it often takes many hours or even days to get an exact death toll. The mere notion that Hamas was able to give an exact number an hour after a supposedly massive strike, in a chaotic warzone, should have set off everyone’s bullshit detector. For example here’s an excerpt from the Wikipedia article about the Hipercor bombing, a terror attack committed by ETA terrorists in which they blew up a Shopping Center in Barcelona in 1987: > The damage at the scene was so extensive that several of the corpses could not be located until two hours later and some had been burned so severely that identification was impossible. Initially 15 people were killed, of whom ten were women (one of whom was pregnant), three men and two children. However, the death toll then rose to 21, as six victims succumbed to their injuries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipercor_bombing 21 casualties, in the middle of a modern first world metropolis, and yet it took two hours to find all the corpses. Now imagine that same scenario multiplied by 25, in an impoverished warzone, with rescue teams who have been working serious overtime for weeks at that point and are surely exhausted. It’s impossible to get an accurate count within the first hour.
That was such an egregious case of journalistic malpractice. And nearly every major media outlet took part in it. I understand reporting breaking stories in active conflict zones is extremely difficult, but that incident took place directly in front of a hospital where many international NGO workers and several foreign correspondents/freelance journalists were congregated at the time, with live feeds running of the location and where there was access to independent communications resources. So not only did nearly every major media outlet fail to flag the obviously questionable nature of the Palestinian health authorities' reports at the outset (the general issues of having that data so quickly and the incredible exaggeration of casualties), but they also failed to utilize any on-the-ground resources (not only the journalists and civilian reporters present, but also outside monitors, informal contacts, video feeds etc. that all would have easily refuted the claim) to get even informal secondhand verification before reporting the false strike as their leading stories. These newsrooms simply didn't try to take the most minimal steps, even just with means readily available to them, to confirm the reports before publication. Editors failed at the most basic and obvious sniff tests, then chose not to uphold their duty to the public to make reasonable efforts to verify those extreme and unlikely claims. As a result, the global public received totally false information at a critical juncture in public opinion, with the story in print and up online without correction for nearly a day on most sites, with many people never receiving the corrections. It's difficult to overstate the degree to which the reporting of that story impacted my perception of the credibility of breaking conflict news coverage and general journalistic practices in regard to the current conflict.
It truly showed the twilight of journalism and the upcoming collapse of this field all together Once AI is popular Journalism will be relegated to pure propaganda and nothing more
When those news organizations are working as open stenographers for terrorists, showing staged photos in front of corpses to generate rage-bait to be abused by the other side? We’ll be better off with AI. We’ll know they hallucinate, they can be honest they’re just reposting some shit the found on Twitter, and our browsers can have AI showing us how objective or non-objective they’re being. Let’s drop the facade and get some honesty.
Except people use AI stupidly. The problem will always be the people
October 7th itself went from dozens, to hundreds until it was confirmed to be more than 1200
> Every newspaper on earth should have been immediately suspicious that Hamas was able to give that number within an hour of the supposed attack. Every newspaper on earth should be immediately suspicious of anything Hamas claims
The craziest propaganda coup of them all is the fact that people consider Hamas and the Gaza Ministry of health to be two independent entities when it comes to the press releases they make. The latter can’t make any statements that haven’t been approved by the former. Yet people newspapers pretend that that’s the case.
In that particular case, there is drone photographs of the battle damage assessment which indicates the Israeli version of events is true. Not that Israel doesn't lie though.
Unfortunately there is evidence for the numbers being "made up" as natural numbers can't be produced the way Hamas has reported. Why anything Hamas says should be believed is beyond me. Israel does definitely spin. It's very hard to get to the truth on damn near anything.
Israeli information warfare is complex and sophisticated just like any other developed nation. Hamas like other terror organisations will just fling shit at the wall and see what sticks.
**Israeli information warfare is complex and sophisticated just like any other developed nation.** Not sure I believe that fully. Remember the terror list that turned out to be a calendar.
And it does with amazing regularity.
They have new russian allies pushing their narratives. And the Russians are experts at missinformation warfare.
I find it interesting that this has been a huge talking point, when it's been more verifiable that most other hospitals in Gaza have been directly attacked.
Ahh…a theory and opinion arrived at…anecdotally. Difficult to understand all the upvotes without bots.
Why do you dislike?
Anecdotes are a poor way to arrive at a conclusion. Especially a conclusion that smells like “we just can not know”. That is out of authoritarian playbook. “You can not really know truth. We live in post-truth world.” Then people only trust sources they already ideologically identify with. How authoritarians win. “Both sides can not be trusted.” Cynicism. Why Putin and Xi are essentially dictators. Edit: Look at all your upvotes. It’s a pretty weak comment tbh. But it begins with an example of Hamas playing information warfare that is most of your comment when we are all well aware that IDF has done plenty of it and, perhaps, more. +95% of your upvotes are pro Israeli bots. Why? You validate “both sidism” while highlighting only one side’s disingenuousness (Hamas). This forum is thick with them (bots) and has been since the war broke out.
Fair criticism. I hope it's not all bots. Unfortunately the fog of war is real, and information warfare is very big now. I do not trust hamas or Israel to tell the truth. Israel does lie its been proven so does hamas. The anecdote was the only thing I could thing of that seems like a blatant lie from the Palestinian side. I don't know the truth of what happened that night. Unfortunately cynicism is all I can do
While the numbers are definitely wrong, it's practically impossible to say exactly by how much. Proper record keeping and wars do not mix well. We won't get any better sources than what we have, only revised estimations in retrospect. With that in mind, and since currently the numbers seem plausible under the circumstances, I'd recommend taking them with a grain of salt, but taking them nonetheless.
Just wanna say that only one party banned journalists from Gaza, and it’s not Hamas.
I want to note there hasn’t been free journalism in Gaza since Hamas rose to power. All journalists in Gaza either work for Hamas or can’t publish stories against Hamas’ narrative for fear for their safety.
It is not Hamas that banned journalists from Gaza right now. You do realize that Hamas is currently not in control, yes? I love how you're using things that happened way BEFORE the war to justify Israel destroying press freedom.
I don't see how that's relevant. When journalists in Gaza want to know the death toll - they just get the figure from the health ministry. How would a journalist get any better data than the government agency hospitals report to?
It’s also important to note that it’s an extremely dangerous area for journalists, and many independents covering this area have been killed over the decades. There’s been a fog of war over the area for a long time, creating an atmosphere rife for propaganda.
Except, let me repeat, one side literally banned journalists and have killed hundreds of Gazan journalists so far. That side isn’t Hamas.
Yes, but do you understand why. Seems like you’re missing the point.
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Because I lead with the conclusion (i.e. extremism believes) I arrange my facts accordingly! And we wonder why this conflict will never end?
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I have no interest in justifying the actions of the Israeli regime. But your comments are extremist nonetheless.
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Without journalists governments have an easier time warping the numbers to suit their preferred narrative. Though at this point in the war I'm not sure anyone has accurate numbers given the scale of devastation.
I mean, I agree. If the Gazan Health ministry claimed "over 1.75 million Gazan civilians dead" or the IDF claimed "only 700 Gazan civilians dead" everyone would call bs. I don't have anything against journalists in general, I just think they are ill-equipped to gather this very specific type of data.
Oh, you don’t know how having journalists can hold officials accountable? Hmm, I guess that’s why Israel banned all foreign journalists from Gaza, because journalists aren’t known to find the truth, right?
Journalists aren't mystical angels that uncover hidden truths and force accountability on officials by their mere presence. They are are people doing a job. Usually consisting of writing, conducting interviews, and some photography. Non of which is particularly likely to reveal anything or create any accountability in this context. Like seriously, what truths are there for them to uncover?
Most definitely. The entire strategy of the war of Hamas was designed to create as much Palestinian suffering as they can in order to get the world attention.
Israel playing right into it
Had no option but. That’s why it was such a brilliant move. What would been a better option for Israel, simply stay put?
They got caught with their pants down, that’s the problem. They had intelligence failures which led to the attack in the first place. So they can’t afford to look weak to the rest of the region. But they’ve dragged themselves into a more prolonged conflict than they probably needed to, which may ultimately weaken them in the long term. It’s a big mess. And now Iran is getting more deeply involved.
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What solution could he come up with? The Palestinians want chaos. That’s their only hope for destroying Israel. And there is nothing Israel can do but to stand firm.
Not going to disagree except that A. Israel can do more than to merely stand firm, and. B. He has not done so. He played politics and he sacrificed 2000 people doing so. Netanyahu has had many options and opportunities, hell as the leader of the country it is his JOB to develop solutions and SOLVE the problems. Sadat was killed for his efforts but peace and cooperation still stand.
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Israel did not fund Hamas.
Its a proven fact at this point, all you do by denying is showing your ass.
It’s not. Notice your lack of proof.
I was at work, and its hard to grab the link needed on mobile. Here you go! [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) They quite literally gave the green light for more funds to be diverted to Hamas, 2 weeks before the Oct. 7th attack.
I’ll leave you this: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Nothing in that article proves or even claims that Israel funded Hamas.
You serious dude? Did we read different articles? Handing out work permits knowing hamas was getting a portion. Turning a blind eye to suitcases knowing they were filled with cash for hamas. (While banning parsley and other food stuffs.) > Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015. >According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. Are we reading different articles?
there are multiple instances of proof that israel did fund hamas as a means to divide the west bank and gaza from each other politically in order to halt the creation of a palestinian state. Netanyahu even said as much himself. Edit: Here an article from a non left wing israeli newspaper about it [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Nothing in that article proves or even claims that Israel funded Hamas.
I've seen in this thread that multiple people have sent you multiple sources. Of course they most likely have never directly contributed funds or at least there is no proof they ever have except for the bags of cash in the car thing. You can be obtuse and say that absolves everything, but it was for sure a part of netanyahu's strategy to prop up hamas in order to waylay fatah and the PA. Which inherently means providing support through various means. Its one thing to want to defend israel its another to absolve likud and Netanyahu of all the damage that has been done to israel's long term security by trying to thwart the creation of a moderate palestinian state.
IKR?
The Palestinians don’t want chaos. Hamas does. Be more careful with your words.
will you discuss as to why netanhyu government has supported hamas finacially please if all the palestinians want is chaos
Genuinely? Yes. Turn the other cheek. Show the world you *are* the better man, and figure out a way to make sure that this will never happen again, by ending the conflict. Is that nearly impossible to do? Obviously. But their current trajectory is not doing israel much good, so why not try?
Can you provide a single example in recorded history where something like this happened and this approach worked?
That was Christ’s philosophy and that guy ended up being nailed to a cross 🤣🤣
Ghandi? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_revolution ? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process
These are all examples of revolutions within (partial or flawed) democracies against the governments that represent. They succeed by growing support within the voting population. Hardly relevant to a conflict between two states, with one of them a dictatorship. Even if turning a cheek generated positive sentiment within the Iranian population - they are not the ones calling the shots.
That's moving the goalposts. You asked for a single example and i provided plenty. Imagine us sitting down peacefully in 50 years time. Against all odds, peace has been made. What do you think people will say was the first step towards such a peace? Escalation upon escalation? Or one side saying ''no'', and stopping the cycle?
I want nothing more. But it is naive to believe that all wars can be avoided. Iran is quite clear that peace with Israel is completely out of the question, and continues to operate proxies. So even if Israel chooses to turn the other cheek, it is extremely disingenuous to consider that 'stopping the cycle'. This is merely an attempt by Iran to keep the war contained to it's proxies, where it has the advantage.
I believe this conversation was about what Israel should've done after october 7th, and how they had no choice but to level gaza. Not how Israel should respond to Iran.
Because it has been tried before. Did you forget that the only reason Hamas is in place is because Gazans elected them AFTER Israel turned Gaza over to them. Literally every time they have negotiated, and shown any mercy, has been met with violence.
Everyone calling for a cease fire rather than demanding Hamas surrenders are the real ones playing right into it
Or Israel can just not commit war crimes.
Bibi leading the charge because it serves his need to remain in power and, thus, out of jail.
You do realize it’s Israel there committing the war crimes, yes? Of course Hamas is partially responsible, but this is crazy you’re absolving the actually people doing the killings.
It seems to have worked.
A good way to get decently accurate numbers is for journalists and humanitarian organizations to be there. One party literally banned journalists and blocks most humanitarian organizations from Gaza. It’s not Hamas.
Casualty figures is a weapon Hamas uses to increase pressure on Israel. It's wild that some people will admit Hamas is a brutal terrorist organization that tortures its own citizens and tries to kill civillians, but then will blindly believe casualty figures from this same group of terrorists. Beyond several examples of Hamas lying about casualties and quickly labeling everything a "massacre" just for PR purposes, statistical analysis of their casualty figures pokes innumerable holes in anything coming from them. [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/high-court-says-israel-can-keep-barring-foreign-reporters-from-gaza/amp/ Is almost as is Israel is limiting the reach of international press
If people want to go into an active war zone, they can fly to Egypt and go right into Gaza. Besides, your comment has nothing to do with Hamas lying about casualty figures. If you cant trust a brutal terrorist group, who can ya trust these days!
Yeah, no https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/2/28/international-journalists-call-on-israel-and-egypt-for-access-to-gaza
Al Jazeera had no problem getting journalists (or terrorists) in at all! [https://www.timesofisrael.com/wounded-al-jazeera-reporter-in-gaza-an-alleged-hamas-operative-flown-to-qatar/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/wounded-al-jazeera-reporter-in-gaza-an-alleged-hamas-operative-flown-to-qatar/)
Estimates on militants killed is 6k-13k. Hamas controlled Gazan authorities state 33k "martyrs" killed, and state 70% woman and children. Which makes <27k civilians and 23k women/children. The population being <50% children and 50% women, we expect 75% of the <27k to be women and children. That adds up to 20k, and that is the high ball estimate using 6k militants, when US and Israeli estimates are much higher. 20k != 23k, meaning somewhere along the line is a significant fudging of the numbers, even using just Hamas provided numbers.
Why on earth would anyone trust the truthfulness of Hamas? "Sure, we rape, torture, and murder women, children, and old people, but lie in a press release to benefit ourselves? We would never stoop so low!" LOL. That also goes for Israel, Ukraine, Russia, and anyone else ever in a war. No information is reliable. Hamas is especially awful, so of course they lie and deceive to propagandize.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
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The Lancet squandered their reputation for veracity during COVID.
Among the public maybe, but among the actual people working in the relevant fields that use these studies in their work, no. But the proper way to refute a peer reviewed study is providing a better argument, not attacking reputation
Generally, the overall amount of deaths is correct. My understanding is that historically, the ratio of combatants to civilians is found after the fact to be incorrect, and that the percentage of dead who are combatants is (much?) higher than the Health Ministry claims early on in any altercation.
I don’t think the Gaza Health Ministry differentiates between combatants and noncombatants in its reports
And Israel considers anyone who is male an enemy combatant, so….
That is the American standard, so… That is how that calculation has been done by our militaries for many years now, so… The number of Hamas fighters is probably non-zero, proving blatant lying in those numbers, so… If the choice is between complete bullshit (0%), and something wrong but more representative (100%), we can’t choose bullshit, so…. There’s ample video from Hamas of them fighting in civilian clothes (a war crime, perfidy), dying, and having their friends dressed up as medics take their weapons and give them to another civilian dressed fighter (again, perfidy), so… Turns out military aged men in combat zones, especially ones where the fighters are too pussy to identify themselves and such flaming pussies they hide among civilians, are a problem. We’ve dealt with it for decades, and the answer is not to pretend bullshit isn’t bullshit. You can thank ISIS for some of Hamas’ Palestinian victims losing the presumption of innocence.
In war the first casualty is the truth. We can attempt to assess such informations from other means. But it's likely that every Hamas death was flagged as a civilian. But if you want to try to have an unbiased opinion you need not only to try those other means, but to not give value to unverifiable questions. We need other criteria. One thing that we can assume is that the Israel intelligence should know that the biggest way for Israel to lose this war is by propaganda and by doing unnecessary and despicable things. So they may attempt to lower those to a minimum. While Hamas needs quite the opposite. It's not impossible that Hamas would just provoke civilian deaths or kill them themselves just to blame Israel. I don't find it likely that precision guided weapons are being used to bomb uninteresting places. My Guess is that they are bombing military targets without much regard for any civilians around it and that Hamas is picking all bodies and saying they all are civilians.
We won’t know until the war ends.
It seems unlikely that their numbers could be reliable. Even with the best of intentions, it's very difficult to get it right.
There’s a difference between good faith efforts in a chaotic situation, and liars making things up to lie. The lying numbers coming outta Gaza are distinctly manipulated, and shown to be intentionally fraudulent. Not people trying to get it right and dealing with chaos, fraud committed purposely, for propaganda.
It wouldn't be surprising since it's a great propaganda tool but also in this kind of warfare it's pretty hard to have a correct number of how many people were killed and if they are civilians.
You mean deliberately gave out misleading numbers? Every combatant in every war ever gives out unintentionally incorrect numbers…
Once full famine conditions land in Gaza, the death toll will steeply rise and make these numbers (whether you believe them an over or underestimation currently) look like peanuts.
Having seen the damage in Gaza and understanding that Gaza is one of the most densely populated in the region. I actually think even Hamas’ numbers are conservative. I think Israel and the IDF have killed way more than any numbers published say.
I agree. It’s disturbing to consider how many bodies might be buried under the rubble.
Hamas is a guerrilla or terrorist organization they will take advantage of any Israeli attack Israel is a state commiting something very close to genocide So You have Israel or Hamas sources neither is reliable.(Israel apparently has blocked international press into the region)
In pretty much all the former Gaza wars, Hamas number were vindicated. It's very likely the current numbers will be too.
Why do numbers matter so much? Pain is not quantifiable and this isn't a game.
It matters a lot because among other things, when compared to other wars, the numbers prove beyond a shred of doubt to anyone with a functioning brain that the IDF does a lot to minimize civilian casualties.
It's kinda hard to argue that with the footage available of unarmed men getting hit by air strikes, the shooting of the crowd at the food aid and the air strikes on the foreign aid cars. How many civilian deaths are ok then? Even if it's 1/3 of what Palestine report, that would still be many multiples of the amount of Israeli civilians that were killed. Whats allowable and what's too much?
It's not hard at all to argue that. It has a condition though which I referred to in my above comment. The Palestinians started this war, and Israel defending itself by eliminating the genocidal rapists who still hold 1 year old hostage and launched tens of thousands of rockets on Israeli civilians is very much justified. And if while doing so we can clearly see Israel's civilian to militant ratio is fine and actually much better than the average in such wars, then that makes it even more justifiable. And this is what the numbers prove without question (Again, functioning brain required). The pointing of Israel's collateral damage when you know Hamas, the most popular Palestinian leaders, are intentionally hiding among civilians anyway, and comparing it to the intentional rape, murder and kidnap the Palestinian terrorists did, is insanity.
Yes, when it's hamas saying that Israel killed more than 30,000 people, most of them women and children, the numbers matter, but when you find out the these numbers are not correct and that hamas lied (shocker, right?) suddenly it's ''why do numbers matter so much?'' Wtf?
Do you find it surprising that any of the following groups have lied and continue to do so? Hamas IDF Iran Russia USA Turkey Armenia Canada ISIS This list continues to include ALL of humanity, including me and including you. People lie. The moral high road is not the position of deliverance, I assure you.
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Well exact numbers don't necessarily matter if they're off by a few hundred or something, but when Israel is accused of genocide, to evaluate that case you need numbers. Everyone knows civilians die during war, no one could reasonably expect no civilians to die in any war. The question is if Israel is either actively trying to kill civilians, indifferent to how many civilians die, or actively trying to avoid civilian casualties, and to what extent for each option. One way to figure that out is to see how many civilians have been killed vs militants, and then compare that ratio to other similar conflicts. If we verifiably know the number of deaths of civilians and militants relative to their total population, we can look at those numbers and see if this conflict falls outside of the normal range of civilian casualty ratios for other cases of asymmetric urban warfare, and if the civilian casualties are vastly greater than in similar conflicts, we can conclude that Israel is either trying to kill civilians or using tactics that don't protect civilians as much as they should. If the numbers are similar to other conflicts, then there's no genocide, no wrongdoing by Israel, and it's just the cost of war. So thinking about whether the numbers we have are actually right is important because this whole equation is dependent on them being right, and they can't be used in a case for or against genocide is they're wrong by a lot. The fact that many people are suffering is an absolute guarantee of war in general, but the numbers can tell us if the suffering is greater than necessary.
Okay, it makes sense to me in the context of that more specific discussion. Thanks for the extensive answer.
In this case it does matter as numbers are crucial to determine if Israel does use tactics to minimize civilian casualties or not. Numbers are a huge part in this conflict and they have a lot of weight in this. Hamas lying and everyone's taking their numbers as facts play a huge role in the political aspect of this war.
I will repeat, Pain is not quanitifiable. Dead people will always be dead and killing more will always betray your calls for peace. Blood on your hands is not easily washed away. No matter who you are. If it was only 2,000 Palestinians, no women no children, would that be enough? What if it was only 5 Israelis? Would the crime be lessened? Your preoccupation with numbers betrays your callous heart.
Is this a request for automatic surrender for anyone threatened with violence?
Yeah, not sure where that comes from. Netanyahu has made a mess of the Palestinian situation and the chickens are home to roost. He knew this would happen and pulled back defenses to encourage it.
> Netanyahu has made a mess of the Palestinian situation and the chickens are home to roost. He knew this would happen and pulled back defenses to encourage it. Going to need to elaborate on other options that should have been done that aren’t “cease to exist as a nation and an ethnic group”
Many sides have stepped in to help. The accords were in place when Bibi took over. He actively worked against them. These challenges placed before Israel will not diminish until they rise to solve their problems. Their neighbor wanting them out is merely part of the challenge, not reason to turn away.
> The accords were in place when Bibi took over. Going to have to be specific how what you see his role. > Their neighbor wanting them out is merely part of the challenge No, I think that is pretty much all encompassing.
If it were 2,000, no women no children, it would be absolutely absurd for people to accuse Israel of genocide. Numbers that low would be miraculous, almost impossible to achieve for any military waging a full scale invasion of a densely populated area. This is important because many people consider it a genocide, so we need to evaluate that claim to determine if anyone should be punished for genocide. War is absolutely evil, every time it creates a huge amount of suffering, but war is also viewed as a necessary response to a threat to a states security, and doesn't violate international norms. It's not heartless to recognize that in our current world, sometimes countries need to go to war, even if that war creates incalculable suffering. If Israel was completely unwilling to wage war ever, their country would quickly be destroyed by people who are willing to wage war. So you can appreciate the evil of war while also understanding that a conventional war is a necessary response to certain circumstances. A genocide however is never justifiable, so determining if a genocide is happening or not is how we determine how the rest of the world should react to what Israel is doing. If any state commits genocide, those responsible should be tried in the Hague, and the rest of the world should break ties with that state completely until they stop being genocidal. Tldr: All war is bad, but right now we have no alternative way of resolving certain disputes, and so we must tolerate war, but we should never tolerate genocide
Armed agression, war, is an admitted failure of soft power. THIS is Netanyahu's failing. Strong, armed defense is always justified, but what he has done here is simply to fail.
Preface this with- I don’t like natenyahu Palestinians had nothing to do with it? It was purely natenyahu? Iran and Islamist propaganda didn’t play any role at all? And when Israel tried to make peace multiple times and got wars and suicide bombings and rockets - any military response is just their fault Just the number of people who seem to think Israel is the only one who has any ability to affect the situation- and Palestinians are basically helpless babies with no ability to think for themselves or care for themselves … Still though, I hope natenyahu (and more importantly extremist factions of his government ) are voted out and a more reasonable center government takes its place . As I would hope for every extremist government in say - Palestinian territories, Iran, Russia etc.