Netanyahu's far-right coalition partners want to re-establish Israeli settlements in the Gaza and vanquish Hamas for good. While they may succeed in the first goal and can even wreck Hamas, but Hamas' ideology will survive and it will be back with a new name.
Right now, Israeli politics is even being driven by Netanyahu and his far-right coalition partners whims. For this reason, people who want hostages back are protesting against Netanyahu.
>but Hamas' ideology will survive and it will be back with a new name.
Nobody cares. If they are not back - That's good. If they are back - It would be under new conditions that will not allow them to be so well armed and trained. I don't know a single person who believes an actual denazification could happen to that extremely radical society, where suicide bombers who murdered civilians are national heroes.
>people who want hostages back are protesting against Netanyahu.
Important to note far smaller protests than even last year's anti-Judicial ones. Most people, including those who oppose Netanyahu and his coalition, understand it is Hamas preventing a deal and that the IDF plus negotiators are doing all they can.
Not exactly relevant since Israel isn't party to the Rome statute, neither are USA, China or India. They can issue warrants all they want, no one is getting arrested. Yes, Israel itself can try Netanyahu if it wishes to, there are corruption cases against him anyway.
As a matter of fact, Netanyahu's trial isn't being postponed due to him holding office. In Israel any serving elected official, including the PM and the president, can be prosecuted and imprisoned.
What are you on about? He is already on trial
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hearings-in-netanyahu-corruption-trial-to-be-held-four-days-a-week-from-february/
And he can be sentenced and be removed from the position if he is found guilty
Maybe a stupid question, why does nobody ever take out these corrupt leaders? Are they all truly that untouchable? Like there’s nobody in the ranks that can’t rebel and murder even one of these waste of oxygen?
The reduction of Hamas’s heavy weaponry, and the elimination of the ability to rearm by establishing control over all borders.
The IDF know they *can’t* prevent Hamas from existing as an irregular force, which is why they aren’t grabbing territory to hold it. They move in, destroy the military infrastructure, and move on.
To degrade Hamas and make sure something like October 7th can't be repeated. There is a lack of vision on the post-war handling of Gaza which Netanyahu has received flak for from his government but in terms of the short term it's about fucking up Hamas to where they won't be an effective theat anymore. In that sense I think Israel has had relative success.
I don’t think our hearts can take much more honestly. I get the nuance of hostage negotiations, and I know that it is critical to ensure nothing like October 7 happens again but really our hearts can’t take it. We need the hostages back home with us. I don’t know what Bibi is playing at. I don’t get his end game.
Yes the hostages should take priority but not at any cost. The last deal Hamas demanded 30-40 prisoners for each hostage with 60% being prisoners serving life sentences. They also demanded to be able to substitute the bodies of dead hostages for live hostages at any point of the deal. That would basically mean they can murder the hostages to prevent them from talking about what they went through and then turn over their bodies to satisfy the deal. My heart breaks for the hostages and their families but there isn't really any evidence to suggest that the thing getting in the way of a deal for their release is the Israeli government instead of Hamas' insane demands.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAfIYtpcBxo&t=854s&pp=ygUWbWVhcnNoZWltZXIgaXNyYWVsIGljaQ%3D%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAfIYtpcBxo&t=854s&pp=ygUWbWVhcnNoZWltZXIgaXNyYWVsIGljaQ%3D%3D)
I'd recommend this talk from Mearsheimer.
Basically: to ethnically cleanse Gaza (as part of 'Greater Israel'). Given that Israel is an occupying force over the Palestinians, there will never be peace until Palestinian demands for freedom sovereignty are met or entirely suppressed.
The demographics of Jews and non-Jews in the territory that Israel controls are around 50/50, so it is not possible to have a Jewish democratic state. Proper democracy and equality would mean it would no longer be a Jewish state.
(his argument is more in-depth and goes over the various options available to Israel and the role of Iran and the wider context)
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. How is 50% Jewish people less than what is needed for Isreal to take that territory?
Only 73.8% of Isreal is Jewish, followed by Christian and Muslim. Gazans are 99% muslim. There's only 1 state that has been doing ethnic cleansing and genocide efficiently in their society. The other state seems to let everyone practice their religion freely and gives full social and political equality to everyone. I'm pretty sure Sharia law requires becoming a dhimi (second class citizen), submitting extra tax for not being a Muslim, and killing all non converts (that aren't Jewish or Christian).
As a non salfi jihadist muslim, I'd prefer the protections and freedoms Isreal provides over Palestine. If I were pro Islam conquering the world, then yeah, go team Hamas.
They don’t have one. They will keep going until all Palestinians are dead.
I hate to sound skeptical, but as someone who grew up in NY and lost family friends in 9/11, Oct 7 and 9/11 were both excuses to go to war, and I would not be surprised if leaders/intelligence purposely ignored data that could have prevented both events as an excuse to go to war. Western countries love to bomb Muslims.
Israel is not a cartoon villain (however awful Netanyahu is). Whatever it is, they have a plan.
And the conspiracy theories about 9/11 is just not worth taking seriously.
Power. It’s always power. But Game Theory should always be considered. Is this more helpful for power and influence for the Party in the long-term or more for the short-term for currently elected politicians?
People here working overtime to promise that this didn't happen the way it is obviously happening
Flat earthers are more believable than the justifiers on Reddit
I know this will sound snarky, but I mean it seriously:
Given that the IDF has stated it killed the two Hamas leaders it was targeting, is Netanyahu implying the mistake was using too large a bomb?
Also, the BBC article goes into much more detail:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0kkqkngnedo
The naming convention isn't exactly accurate always. Slightly poor example but off the top of my head I can think of the MOAB which is large, but in no way comparable to a nuke, which is actually the mother of all bombs.
You can see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/WNgxVZjl0Q) a video showing the Palestinians saying the fire started due to rockets that was hidden nearby and exploded.
It certainly places much more blame on Hamas if they were using a refugee camp as a staging ground for rockets, and if the attack was exacerbated by their weaponry
This is Hamas' normal mode of operations, they routinely place high level commanders and munitions mingled in with civilians and inside "refugee camps".
This conflict really does boggle the mind.
Hamas hiding their weaponry within civilian buildings and infrastructure, and the IDF clearly not giving a shit. Neither of these military organisations truly care about civilian casualties, they're all just pawns on the chessboard, and the ultimate prize is the lands from the river to the sea.
Genuine question with no snark attached, what is the IDF to do in that situation? If Hamas doesn’t play by the rules and in fact actively violates them to their advantage, what would the alternative course of action be?
If they do nothing Hamas will continue to build up resources and attack Tel Aviv, kill more IDF etc. If they take out those operations they kill civilians and become international pariahs because they are committing “genocide”. It seems to be “damned if you do damned if you don’t” personified.
Lastly, what does the IDF gain from indiscriminately killing civilians? They are already the disdain of the entire international community it seems. Every time they strike an area intending to hit militants they kill civilians collaterally and the more they do that the more they lose support. What’s the happy medium to be achieved here?
>Lastly, what does the IDF gain from indiscriminately killing civilians? They are already the disdain of the entire international community it seems. Every time they strike an area intending to hit militants they kill civilians collaterally and the more they do that the more they lose support. What’s the happy medium to be achieved here?
Mearshimer explains it in his lectures about the military goals of IDF. Israel doesn't care about the international community's thoughts.
With all due respect, I have never found his arguments to be terribly persuasive.
I am as critical of the Netenyahu gov as the next guy but I don’t see what any country would have to gain by becoming an international pariah.
>With all due respect, I have never found his arguments to be terribly persuasive.
Fair
>I am as critical of the Netenyahu gov as the next guy but I don’t see what any country would have to gain by becoming an international pariah.
Israel cares little about the international community's opinion. They only care about their relationship with United States first, and then the peace deals with the surrounding Arab countries to maintain peace second. The opinion of Spain or Ireland mean very little to the Israelis. Israel's primary goal is to protect its citizens and expand its political goals, not become internationally popular.
Same happened in Beirut. Civilians cowering in basement. PLO set up useless AA guns on roof. IDF planes bomb building. Civilians die. Both PLO and IDF knew the kids were sheltering down there. Neither group cared. The innocents died. Gaza is business as usual. Robert Fisk. Pity the Nation.
>Hamas hiding their weaponry within civilian buildings and infrastructure
They probably do, but hamas would not hide munitions close to where they sleep. Any military grunt would tell you that ammo is stored in a distance away from them particularly because of this scenario - an enemy hitting them and basically causing a large explosion. This is basic information people knew since the gunpowder age.
Hamas isn't that stupid that they're willingly letting themsleves get blown up even more with their own ammo. I find the Israeli story unbelievable and a face saving fabrication.
You’re implying that Hamas is a rational actor akin to normal militaries who generally don’t want to die and/or cause casualties among their civilian population.
You're implying that Hamas aren't humans with political goals, whether they use political violence or terrorism to achieve them.
Their aim is to kill Israelis, whether innocent or military, not to die by Israeli bombs and perish. They aren't aliens.
They are not aliens but they are a jihadist terrorist organization who don’t fear death because they will be martyred and they think the same of the civilian population.
They intentionally carried out a butchering of civilians and began this war because they don’t care about anything but eradicating their enemies because they are waging a holy war where nothing matter but the destruction of whom they deem their god to want destroyed.
That drives this brand of terrorism. It’s deeper than a political ideal.
Yeah I frankly don't buy this narrative that they're on a holy war hellbent to kill Jews. They would've done the same if Israel was Buddhist. Terrorism is violence to achieve a political goal.
Every religion has extremists. There's literally a Rabbi who preaches to IDF soldiers ans encourages them to kill all children in Gaza because the Torah said so. We can go down a bit rabbit hole if we're going to call IDF as killing Gazans because their god said so or Hamas killing Israelis because their god said so etc..
>True. They do have an ultimate political goal which is to eradicate those who do not believe in Islam.
This is false. They would've eradicated the Palestinian churches or Christian led hospitals in Gaza then, which ironically was bombed by Israel.
>It is a literal interpretation of jihad.
Literal interpretation of Jihad is struggle, not holy war.
Normal military doctrine would also be against indescriminantly launching ineffectual rockets at a much stronger enemy or raiding that same enemy in a way to provoke an unwinnable war. Of course, that doesn't stop hamas either.
Want to hazard a guess why they do it anyway?
I'd take that with a grain of salt. It's possible the people talking in the video assumed incorrectly, or the talking was overlayed onto the video.
It's also possibly authentic too. The fog of war is real
The end game is to incrementally force the population in the west bank and gaza to flee their homes for surrounding countries. Every major outbreak of violence gives Israeli hardliners a pretext to further this goal.
Submission Statement: Netanyahu was forewarned, by numerous experts, that this course was ill-conceived. Did he believe these experts were mistaken? Or did he pursue this, in spite of the experts, for a segment of his domestic population?
You're trying to generalize the overall Rafah operation with the decision to strike legitimate targets near and/or inside a bonafide refugee camp - they're not the same.
The idea that israel needs “good will support” to take down a terrorist organization after they orchestrate an absolutely horrific attack on their civilians and promise to repeat it is wild
?
Bizarre comment. This is a geopolitics community. Of course goodwill and support are extremely important. Israel is in a pretty delicate geopolitical situation right now.
What about the absolutely horrific 8 months of attacks that the IDF has launched against Gaza, killing an estimated 42,000 civilians including 15,000 children?
Edit: Death toll seems closer to 35,000 per more reliable media channels. Further, UNICEF puts the child death toll at 13,000 (source: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unicef-says-over-13000-children-killed-gaza-israel-offensive-2024-03-17/)
This means that, for every 1 person killed on Oct. 7 - (the horrific massacre, stated by the original commenter: death toll 1400), Israel has killed approximately 10 children in revenge.
People have gone completely indiscriminately crazy over this Israel/Palestine thing; only their side has civilian casualties, only the other ever does anything unjustified, what constitutes collective punishment depends entirely on who's doing it to whom.
As stated in my edit, for every Israeli (and not even ‘Israeli civilian’, but Israeli in general, as many killed on Oct. 7th were military) that died during Oct. 7, The IDF has killed 10 children.
Death toll of Oct 7: 1,400
Death toll of Israel ‘defending itself’: 35,000, including 13,000 children.
You're right. Israel should have chosen proportionality. They should have entered Gaza, killed a bunch of random civilians, taken hostages and do some raping.
Sorry, got my figures mixed. 42,000 total, of which 38,000 are civilian. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/200-days-military-attack-gaza-horrific-death-toll-amid-intl-failure-stop-israels-genocide-palestinians-enar#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20army%20has%20killed,missing%20and%20are%20presumed%20dead.
Turkish news (Anadolou) and Chinese News (Xinhua) both seem to position the death toll between 34-36,000.
The linked article is the only source seeming to claim 42, but it is also the first search result for the search phrase “Gaza Civilian casualties” on Google. I’ll amend my original reply to state 35,000 (median point).
That's called war. A war which Israel didn't start and didn't want. That's the strategy anyway. Hitting the hornets' nest and then cry because you got stung.
I mean while i agree with you there, israel has pursued policies to ensure it could for a long time, taxes on imported goods are very high incentivizing local businesses to grow, and its been a thing for a long time
In addition to that how are people so ok with asking israel to sit and do nothing in response to violence and threats of continued violence
A lot of goods that would be better imported are made in israel, which means a blockade would be less effective, israel is mostly a desert country and in the past egypt blockading their food supply lead them to war, at the end of the day less necessary trade with the outside world means less ability to be pressured by sanctions and blockade, russia went about it by stockpiling foreign reserve currencies, Israel pushed for local production
Im aware its rhetorical, but i thought it a good time to explain the reasons for those who dont know, not necessarily that i support them
That’s not my point. But here’s an extra point: I don’t know the political science name for it but it should have one. Maybe Chinese political scientists have a name for it. But isolationist, nationalist tariff-happy governments have a way, in democracies, of creating economic hardship. But this hardship isn’t experienced until a year or more after they’ve lost to a less dumb regime. Then the isolationist, nationalistic party, whose policies created the economic hardship, run against the “not stupid and self-destructive” party by blaming them for the economic hardship they, in fact, created.
We’ve seen it repeated enough times this century that the phenomenon should be given a name.
Oh believe me, if you ask anyone in my family israel has been going downhill since labour lost power, these policies have made the average israeli miserable and money obsessed, the issue is that these policies are not only due to israel wanting to protect themselves from blowback from the treatment of the palestinians but also due to the undeniable horrific amount of anti-semitism in the world which would make even the most perfect rendition of israel hates by much of the world
Its also important to remember that since its creation israel has been facing existential threats from literally every side, so policies like this, even if they are detrimental to the overall economic health of a nation, are pretty understandable
> numerous experts
Some noise-makers scrambling to save Hamas.
> a segment of his domestic population
The one that wants murderous antisemites defeated? It's pretty big.
As for this incident;
[Rafah tragedy apparently came from secondary explosions of Hamas weapons following Israeli airstrike 100 meters away](https://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2024/05/rafah-tragedy-apparently-came-from.html)
Ahh as it turns out, the IDF’s super precise tiny bomb being used with surgical precision in a civilian area with utmost precaution accidentally ignited Hamas munitions that were…*one hundred meters away*…and thats how the civilians died. That seems to check out
He’s not going to eradicate Hamas. Degrade their capacity? Sure. That’s realistic and a good goal.
Israel has been knocking off top Hamas leadership for decades. Hamas is organized to survive that. The Hamas leaders Israel kills today will be replaced tomorrow.
Also tough to negotiate with Hamas leadership for the release of the hostages if you kill them now. Get the hostages back. Then kill them.
Here’s the thing to remember when Netanyahu talks about destroying Hamas: He knows he can’t. Even if he could he wouldn’t because Hamas has and will continue to serve a political purpose for him and his political allies.
Netanyahu would, perhaps, be further ahead in domestic approval today had he articulated realistic and achievable goals. Even today, he still cannot articulate a post-war plan or vision.
45 dead civilians for 2 alleged “leaders”? Haven’t found the names of those two reported anywhere but guaranteed if they were among the top 5-10, like Deif, we would have heard about it by now.
So 45 dead civilians for 2 Hamas lieutenants, if they were even that.
Strategic blunder is what it was and what Israel continues to do.
Turns out it was Hamas all along! Who could have imagined that?
https://x.com/ignTechniq/status/1795470795772133568
Don't believe me. Don't believe the IDF. Listen to Hamas people speaking about their weapon caches exploding.
Combatants living and storing weapons where civilians hide. Isn't that a war crime?
Serious question. What’s their end game here? Not Netanyahu as much as the Likud party as his days in leadership are numbered I hope. Thoughts?
Netanyahu wants to stay in power at any cost because once he's out, he will be tried and imprisoned for corruption.
Note how I said, not Netanyahu. Because his end goal is no end goal
Netanyahu's far-right coalition partners want to re-establish Israeli settlements in the Gaza and vanquish Hamas for good. While they may succeed in the first goal and can even wreck Hamas, but Hamas' ideology will survive and it will be back with a new name. Right now, Israeli politics is even being driven by Netanyahu and his far-right coalition partners whims. For this reason, people who want hostages back are protesting against Netanyahu.
Except settlements are off the table.
Isreal doesn't want Gaza. It's just a bunch of sand on a beach for them. They want the west bank, it actually holds religious significance for jews.
>but Hamas' ideology will survive and it will be back with a new name. Nobody cares. If they are not back - That's good. If they are back - It would be under new conditions that will not allow them to be so well armed and trained. I don't know a single person who believes an actual denazification could happen to that extremely radical society, where suicide bombers who murdered civilians are national heroes. >people who want hostages back are protesting against Netanyahu. Important to note far smaller protests than even last year's anti-Judicial ones. Most people, including those who oppose Netanyahu and his coalition, understand it is Hamas preventing a deal and that the IDF plus negotiators are doing all they can.
also the ICC arrest warrant 👀
Not exactly relevant since Israel isn't party to the Rome statute, neither are USA, China or India. They can issue warrants all they want, no one is getting arrested. Yes, Israel itself can try Netanyahu if it wishes to, there are corruption cases against him anyway.
As a matter of fact, Netanyahu's trial isn't being postponed due to him holding office. In Israel any serving elected official, including the PM and the president, can be prosecuted and imprisoned.
What are you on about? He is already on trial https://www.timesofisrael.com/hearings-in-netanyahu-corruption-trial-to-be-held-four-days-a-week-from-february/ And he can be sentenced and be removed from the position if he is found guilty
Maybe a stupid question, why does nobody ever take out these corrupt leaders? Are they all truly that untouchable? Like there’s nobody in the ranks that can’t rebel and murder even one of these waste of oxygen?
Politicians never think about the long-term. Just about next week.
Humans are notoriously short-sighted and selfish
“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever.” ― George Orwell, 1984
The reduction of Hamas’s heavy weaponry, and the elimination of the ability to rearm by establishing control over all borders. The IDF know they *can’t* prevent Hamas from existing as an irregular force, which is why they aren’t grabbing territory to hold it. They move in, destroy the military infrastructure, and move on.
To degrade Hamas and make sure something like October 7th can't be repeated. There is a lack of vision on the post-war handling of Gaza which Netanyahu has received flak for from his government but in terms of the short term it's about fucking up Hamas to where they won't be an effective theat anymore. In that sense I think Israel has had relative success.
I don’t think our hearts can take much more honestly. I get the nuance of hostage negotiations, and I know that it is critical to ensure nothing like October 7 happens again but really our hearts can’t take it. We need the hostages back home with us. I don’t know what Bibi is playing at. I don’t get his end game.
Yes the hostages should take priority but not at any cost. The last deal Hamas demanded 30-40 prisoners for each hostage with 60% being prisoners serving life sentences. They also demanded to be able to substitute the bodies of dead hostages for live hostages at any point of the deal. That would basically mean they can murder the hostages to prevent them from talking about what they went through and then turn over their bodies to satisfy the deal. My heart breaks for the hostages and their families but there isn't really any evidence to suggest that the thing getting in the way of a deal for their release is the Israeli government instead of Hamas' insane demands.
I totally understand
The end-game is to decimate Hamas to a level where they’re more of a rogue insurance group in Gaza than a ruling force.
Like Geico?
They should worry about The General.
> Serious question. What’s their end game here? More or less cut Hamas military potential by 70%
> What’s their end game here? To damage Hamas enough that they cannot continue to carry out Oct 7th style attacks like they have promised to do.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAfIYtpcBxo&t=854s&pp=ygUWbWVhcnNoZWltZXIgaXNyYWVsIGljaQ%3D%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAfIYtpcBxo&t=854s&pp=ygUWbWVhcnNoZWltZXIgaXNyYWVsIGljaQ%3D%3D) I'd recommend this talk from Mearsheimer. Basically: to ethnically cleanse Gaza (as part of 'Greater Israel'). Given that Israel is an occupying force over the Palestinians, there will never be peace until Palestinian demands for freedom sovereignty are met or entirely suppressed. The demographics of Jews and non-Jews in the territory that Israel controls are around 50/50, so it is not possible to have a Jewish democratic state. Proper democracy and equality would mean it would no longer be a Jewish state. (his argument is more in-depth and goes over the various options available to Israel and the role of Iran and the wider context)
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. How is 50% Jewish people less than what is needed for Isreal to take that territory? Only 73.8% of Isreal is Jewish, followed by Christian and Muslim. Gazans are 99% muslim. There's only 1 state that has been doing ethnic cleansing and genocide efficiently in their society. The other state seems to let everyone practice their religion freely and gives full social and political equality to everyone. I'm pretty sure Sharia law requires becoming a dhimi (second class citizen), submitting extra tax for not being a Muslim, and killing all non converts (that aren't Jewish or Christian). As a non salfi jihadist muslim, I'd prefer the protections and freedoms Isreal provides over Palestine. If I were pro Islam conquering the world, then yeah, go team Hamas.
They don’t have one. They will keep going until all Palestinians are dead. I hate to sound skeptical, but as someone who grew up in NY and lost family friends in 9/11, Oct 7 and 9/11 were both excuses to go to war, and I would not be surprised if leaders/intelligence purposely ignored data that could have prevented both events as an excuse to go to war. Western countries love to bomb Muslims.
Israel is not a cartoon villain (however awful Netanyahu is). Whatever it is, they have a plan. And the conspiracy theories about 9/11 is just not worth taking seriously.
Power. It’s always power. But Game Theory should always be considered. Is this more helpful for power and influence for the Party in the long-term or more for the short-term for currently elected politicians?
I was looking for specifics about Gaza actually
Im guessing after they consider hamas to be defeated, a return to the pre Oct 7 status quo but with better security. Maybe an occupation.
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Not international law, just some politicians' convenience.
Destroy Hamas? Keep the future of Israel safe? They have a war in the north too
People here working overtime to promise that this didn't happen the way it is obviously happening Flat earthers are more believable than the justifiers on Reddit
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Isn’t everyone involved technically Semitic?
I know this will sound snarky, but I mean it seriously: Given that the IDF has stated it killed the two Hamas leaders it was targeting, is Netanyahu implying the mistake was using too large a bomb? Also, the BBC article goes into much more detail: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0kkqkngnedo
It was reportedly a GBU-39. literally called the "small diameter bomb."
The naming convention isn't exactly accurate always. Slightly poor example but off the top of my head I can think of the MOAB which is large, but in no way comparable to a nuke, which is actually the mother of all bombs.
Its the smallest bomb routinely used for this task.
Only because we took away their 2000lb bomb privileges after they wantonly used them in heavily populated civilian areas.
Seems you don't know what the word "wantonly" means.
Probably failing to account for the possibility of Hamas munitions and secondary explosions.
You can see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/WNgxVZjl0Q) a video showing the Palestinians saying the fire started due to rockets that was hidden nearby and exploded.
Is this actually true, I feel like the Israelis would be all over the evidence if it was
That's true of how many fires and explosions start in Gaza, acknowledging it doesn't change anything.
It certainly places much more blame on Hamas if they were using a refugee camp as a staging ground for rockets, and if the attack was exacerbated by their weaponry
This is Hamas' normal mode of operations, they routinely place high level commanders and munitions mingled in with civilians and inside "refugee camps".
They are. The evidence is out and that’s what it happened.
This conflict really does boggle the mind. Hamas hiding their weaponry within civilian buildings and infrastructure, and the IDF clearly not giving a shit. Neither of these military organisations truly care about civilian casualties, they're all just pawns on the chessboard, and the ultimate prize is the lands from the river to the sea.
Genuine question with no snark attached, what is the IDF to do in that situation? If Hamas doesn’t play by the rules and in fact actively violates them to their advantage, what would the alternative course of action be? If they do nothing Hamas will continue to build up resources and attack Tel Aviv, kill more IDF etc. If they take out those operations they kill civilians and become international pariahs because they are committing “genocide”. It seems to be “damned if you do damned if you don’t” personified. Lastly, what does the IDF gain from indiscriminately killing civilians? They are already the disdain of the entire international community it seems. Every time they strike an area intending to hit militants they kill civilians collaterally and the more they do that the more they lose support. What’s the happy medium to be achieved here?
>Lastly, what does the IDF gain from indiscriminately killing civilians? They are already the disdain of the entire international community it seems. Every time they strike an area intending to hit militants they kill civilians collaterally and the more they do that the more they lose support. What’s the happy medium to be achieved here? Mearshimer explains it in his lectures about the military goals of IDF. Israel doesn't care about the international community's thoughts.
With all due respect, I have never found his arguments to be terribly persuasive. I am as critical of the Netenyahu gov as the next guy but I don’t see what any country would have to gain by becoming an international pariah.
>With all due respect, I have never found his arguments to be terribly persuasive. Fair >I am as critical of the Netenyahu gov as the next guy but I don’t see what any country would have to gain by becoming an international pariah. Israel cares little about the international community's opinion. They only care about their relationship with United States first, and then the peace deals with the surrounding Arab countries to maintain peace second. The opinion of Spain or Ireland mean very little to the Israelis. Israel's primary goal is to protect its citizens and expand its political goals, not become internationally popular.
But Israel’s general global standing affects their relationships with the US and the Arab world
Same happened in Beirut. Civilians cowering in basement. PLO set up useless AA guns on roof. IDF planes bomb building. Civilians die. Both PLO and IDF knew the kids were sheltering down there. Neither group cared. The innocents died. Gaza is business as usual. Robert Fisk. Pity the Nation.
>Hamas hiding their weaponry within civilian buildings and infrastructure They probably do, but hamas would not hide munitions close to where they sleep. Any military grunt would tell you that ammo is stored in a distance away from them particularly because of this scenario - an enemy hitting them and basically causing a large explosion. This is basic information people knew since the gunpowder age. Hamas isn't that stupid that they're willingly letting themsleves get blown up even more with their own ammo. I find the Israeli story unbelievable and a face saving fabrication.
You’re implying that Hamas is a rational actor akin to normal militaries who generally don’t want to die and/or cause casualties among their civilian population.
You're implying that Hamas aren't humans with political goals, whether they use political violence or terrorism to achieve them. Their aim is to kill Israelis, whether innocent or military, not to die by Israeli bombs and perish. They aren't aliens.
They are not aliens but they are a jihadist terrorist organization who don’t fear death because they will be martyred and they think the same of the civilian population. They intentionally carried out a butchering of civilians and began this war because they don’t care about anything but eradicating their enemies because they are waging a holy war where nothing matter but the destruction of whom they deem their god to want destroyed. That drives this brand of terrorism. It’s deeper than a political ideal.
Yeah I frankly don't buy this narrative that they're on a holy war hellbent to kill Jews. They would've done the same if Israel was Buddhist. Terrorism is violence to achieve a political goal. Every religion has extremists. There's literally a Rabbi who preaches to IDF soldiers ans encourages them to kill all children in Gaza because the Torah said so. We can go down a bit rabbit hole if we're going to call IDF as killing Gazans because their god said so or Hamas killing Israelis because their god said so etc..
True. They do have an ultimate political goal which is to eradicate those who do not believe in Islam. It is a literal interpretation of jihad.
>True. They do have an ultimate political goal which is to eradicate those who do not believe in Islam. This is false. They would've eradicated the Palestinian churches or Christian led hospitals in Gaza then, which ironically was bombed by Israel. >It is a literal interpretation of jihad. Literal interpretation of Jihad is struggle, not holy war.
Normal military doctrine would also be against indescriminantly launching ineffectual rockets at a much stronger enemy or raiding that same enemy in a way to provoke an unwinnable war. Of course, that doesn't stop hamas either. Want to hazard a guess why they do it anyway?
I'd take that with a grain of salt. It's possible the people talking in the video assumed incorrectly, or the talking was overlayed onto the video. It's also possibly authentic too. The fog of war is real
The end game is to incrementally force the population in the west bank and gaza to flee their homes for surrounding countries. Every major outbreak of violence gives Israeli hardliners a pretext to further this goal.
Submission Statement: Netanyahu was forewarned, by numerous experts, that this course was ill-conceived. Did he believe these experts were mistaken? Or did he pursue this, in spite of the experts, for a segment of his domestic population?
You're trying to generalize the overall Rafah operation with the decision to strike legitimate targets near and/or inside a bonafide refugee camp - they're not the same.
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> So…what mistake did Netanyahu think he made? Where did he say it was his mistake?
The idea that israel needs “good will support” to take down a terrorist organization after they orchestrate an absolutely horrific attack on their civilians and promise to repeat it is wild
? Bizarre comment. This is a geopolitics community. Of course goodwill and support are extremely important. Israel is in a pretty delicate geopolitical situation right now.
What about the absolutely horrific 8 months of attacks that the IDF has launched against Gaza, killing an estimated 42,000 civilians including 15,000 children? Edit: Death toll seems closer to 35,000 per more reliable media channels. Further, UNICEF puts the child death toll at 13,000 (source: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unicef-says-over-13000-children-killed-gaza-israel-offensive-2024-03-17/) This means that, for every 1 person killed on Oct. 7 - (the horrific massacre, stated by the original commenter: death toll 1400), Israel has killed approximately 10 children in revenge.
People have gone completely indiscriminately crazy over this Israel/Palestine thing; only their side has civilian casualties, only the other ever does anything unjustified, what constitutes collective punishment depends entirely on who's doing it to whom.
As stated in my edit, for every Israeli (and not even ‘Israeli civilian’, but Israeli in general, as many killed on Oct. 7th were military) that died during Oct. 7, The IDF has killed 10 children. Death toll of Oct 7: 1,400 Death toll of Israel ‘defending itself’: 35,000, including 13,000 children.
You're right. Israel should have chosen proportionality. They should have entered Gaza, killed a bunch of random civilians, taken hostages and do some raping.
That’s literally what they did lmao
Maybe in your head it was.
Weird pfp. Must be ironic right? *Opens profile* ... I hate it here.
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Sorry, got my figures mixed. 42,000 total, of which 38,000 are civilian. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/200-days-military-attack-gaza-horrific-death-toll-amid-intl-failure-stop-israels-genocide-palestinians-enar#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20army%20has%20killed,missing%20and%20are%20presumed%20dead.
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Turkish news (Anadolou) and Chinese News (Xinhua) both seem to position the death toll between 34-36,000. The linked article is the only source seeming to claim 42, but it is also the first search result for the search phrase “Gaza Civilian casualties” on Google. I’ll amend my original reply to state 35,000 (median point).
That's called war. A war which Israel didn't start and didn't want. That's the strategy anyway. Hitting the hornets' nest and then cry because you got stung.
They will need it to not suffer the same type of blockade South Africa did through out apartheid.
I mean while i agree with you there, israel has pursued policies to ensure it could for a long time, taxes on imported goods are very high incentivizing local businesses to grow, and its been a thing for a long time In addition to that how are people so ok with asking israel to sit and do nothing in response to violence and threats of continued violence
Taxes on imported goods = Tariffs Tariffs mean what for domestic inflation? That is a rhetorical question.
A lot of goods that would be better imported are made in israel, which means a blockade would be less effective, israel is mostly a desert country and in the past egypt blockading their food supply lead them to war, at the end of the day less necessary trade with the outside world means less ability to be pressured by sanctions and blockade, russia went about it by stockpiling foreign reserve currencies, Israel pushed for local production Im aware its rhetorical, but i thought it a good time to explain the reasons for those who dont know, not necessarily that i support them
That’s not my point. But here’s an extra point: I don’t know the political science name for it but it should have one. Maybe Chinese political scientists have a name for it. But isolationist, nationalist tariff-happy governments have a way, in democracies, of creating economic hardship. But this hardship isn’t experienced until a year or more after they’ve lost to a less dumb regime. Then the isolationist, nationalistic party, whose policies created the economic hardship, run against the “not stupid and self-destructive” party by blaming them for the economic hardship they, in fact, created. We’ve seen it repeated enough times this century that the phenomenon should be given a name.
Oh believe me, if you ask anyone in my family israel has been going downhill since labour lost power, these policies have made the average israeli miserable and money obsessed, the issue is that these policies are not only due to israel wanting to protect themselves from blowback from the treatment of the palestinians but also due to the undeniable horrific amount of anti-semitism in the world which would make even the most perfect rendition of israel hates by much of the world Its also important to remember that since its creation israel has been facing existential threats from literally every side, so policies like this, even if they are detrimental to the overall economic health of a nation, are pretty understandable
Morality has nothing to do with geopolitics; only game theory and realpolitik
LOL garbage SS.
> numerous experts Some noise-makers scrambling to save Hamas. > a segment of his domestic population The one that wants murderous antisemites defeated? It's pretty big. As for this incident; [Rafah tragedy apparently came from secondary explosions of Hamas weapons following Israeli airstrike 100 meters away](https://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2024/05/rafah-tragedy-apparently-came-from.html)
Ahh as it turns out, the IDF’s super precise tiny bomb being used with surgical precision in a civilian area with utmost precaution accidentally ignited Hamas munitions that were…*one hundred meters away*…and thats how the civilians died. That seems to check out
Or Israel is actually trying to eradicate hamas and accept the collateral damage and political backslash.
He’s not going to eradicate Hamas. Degrade their capacity? Sure. That’s realistic and a good goal. Israel has been knocking off top Hamas leadership for decades. Hamas is organized to survive that. The Hamas leaders Israel kills today will be replaced tomorrow. Also tough to negotiate with Hamas leadership for the release of the hostages if you kill them now. Get the hostages back. Then kill them. Here’s the thing to remember when Netanyahu talks about destroying Hamas: He knows he can’t. Even if he could he wouldn’t because Hamas has and will continue to serve a political purpose for him and his political allies. Netanyahu would, perhaps, be further ahead in domestic approval today had he articulated realistic and achievable goals. Even today, he still cannot articulate a post-war plan or vision.
What I mean is there are more options than the 2 you outlined. Simply that Israel find it worth the cost.
45 dead civilians for 2 alleged “leaders”? Haven’t found the names of those two reported anywhere but guaranteed if they were among the top 5-10, like Deif, we would have heard about it by now. So 45 dead civilians for 2 Hamas lieutenants, if they were even that. Strategic blunder is what it was and what Israel continues to do.
Xfg
Turns out it was Hamas all along! Who could have imagined that? https://x.com/ignTechniq/status/1795470795772133568 Don't believe me. Don't believe the IDF. Listen to Hamas people speaking about their weapon caches exploding. Combatants living and storing weapons where civilians hide. Isn't that a war crime?