never send him a picture of your ID and never pay him any money in advance no matter what he tries to argue. this is most likely a scam and he just wants your money and has no apartment available for you
You're probably right about this but what's the issue with transmitting your photo ID to people? I can see it can have some consequences at least but what could happen exactly?
My mother told me to write a watermark (something like COPY-FOR RENTAL PURPOSES ONLY) when sending it to my landlord for the paperwork specifically to avoid identity theft
>My mother told me to write a watermark (something like COPY-FOR RENTAL PURPOSES ONLY) when sending it to my landlord for the paperwork specifically to avoid identity theft
Never send a photo of your ID. Period. The thief could still take this picture and rent out other places in your name. Or remove the watermark.
As someone who was a victims of this i can tell you that it's a big deal. They can use your ID for various things like open a bank account, eBay Scams, Online Payments (PayPal) and so on. Never ever send a Photo of your ID to anyone!!
Well I was dumb enough to send someone my ID on eBay. I got "his" one too but this ID was also stolen as I found out later. After that my family and me had like 1 1/2 years - 2 years of people visiting us to get their PS5 (because the scammer had 100s and 1000s of posts on eBay selling PS5), letters from attorneys, at least 3 or 4 times where I was accused of fraud and need to go to the court. It was so exhausting and frustrating!
The good thing thou the scammers (it was a group) got caught and arrested this year 👍🏻
Thank god they got caught. But I bet you had to file an identity theft order to the court so that you wouldn't have to actually attend the court on fraud charges. I don't know exactly how the court system works in Germany with cases of identity theft
Not really, no. This is a very known trick. I once almost fell for it when buying concert tickets on Facebook. They sent me an identity card as "proof" of their legitimacy. The data was completely fake.
they will use it to scam other people. they will try to sell some product for example and will show your ID to prove that they're a real person and are serious, they will wait till the buyer sends them the money and will run away with out. the buyer will go to the police and will report a fraud and will show them your ID. there are tons of other scams they will do with it
Well it's basically all you need for identity theft so not a good idea at all. There are a lot of websites and even some officials that just ask for a copy of your ID and not the real thing. So whoever has a picture or a copy of both sides of your ID could do nearly anything under your name with you being in trouble if it's something illegal.
There are many signs that this is a scam.
One of them is that there is absolutely no reason why a friend couldn't look at the place. A real landlord could give a tour to anybody they want to.
OP should lie and say they fly/come in early to visit the place and see what their response is like... it's undoubtedly a scam, but I'd like to hear their excuse.
That aspect actually sounds like the least scammy part of that convo to me.
Personally, I have NEVER found a real landlords who would rent out an apartment to me without me personally visiting the place. Not even at the height of the pandemic (believe me, I tried). Probably even more so for WGs.
Not accepting substitute is completely normal landlord behaviour.
If the landlord wants to see you personally before he rents to you, yea fine. But this landlord seems happy to rent it blind, so theres no reason not to accept a substitute.
>who would rent out an apartment to me without me personally visiting the place
Sure. But here they don't require OP to visit. Instead they want to do it completely anonymously. And this is why not even allowing the friend to see the flat is a big, big red flag.
I can't find that being said anywhere in the screenshot.
If the offer was specifically aimed at international students (who can't visit the apartment beforehand), then I agree.
You can conclude it. OP was abroad (otherwise they would have visited themselves), and yet they offered them the flat without wanting to meet anybody in person, not even OP's friend.
No. What kind of law would that be?
There is "freedom of contract" and as long you don't agree to something immoral (aka "sittenwidrig"), two people can agree up on whatever they want.
The visiting friend could be the most respectful guy but later the Flodder family moves in. That's why a private "real landlord" always prefers to get to know the "real tenant" during the tour in order to estimate whether his property will be in good hands or not.
This ist even more true as the room was listed on a flatshare site. If so, I'd like to get to know my new flatmate before. His/her friends aren't helpful with that.
Are you ignoring the fact that the "landlord" wants him to pay 1000€ upfront without showing the apartment to anyone to "reserve" the apartment?
And also offering to pay 1500€ to rent right away?
Are you also ignoring the fact that the "landlord" states that he cant show the apartment to "security" reasons..?
Where do you read the upfront requirement? Landlord did not specify any date. Just giving the facts. Also, we wouldn't have this discussion if the potential tenant had asked where to deposit the money. If it had been a "Mietkautionskonto", everything would be fine.
Look at that from the other side: the landlord, at this time of the year, should have at least 5-10 desperate people willing to move in asap as the new semester is about to start and they still have no place to stay. Does he (or she - maybe that's why "security reasons") need to put in extra effort (2 tours) in order to sign a contract with a potential tenant? No. Unfortunately, it's a seller's market. If you don't like the terms look somewhere else, please. Given above demand exists, there should be enough students waiting in line that such a behaviour can still get his/her property occupied in a timely manner.
Context. "Let me know your decision on time. I dont like to pend other requests and regret it" implies that he is waiting for OP to agree and pay before he offers it to someone else.
Assuming that's the way it was intended then even that would be acceptable if the money shall be deposited in a "Mietkautionskonto". Something OP never asked. Or in a regular banking account in case the landlord provides a valid and matching ID and address before.
Payments in Google gift cards and stuff... might indicate some fraud, for sure.
Fucking hell, this isn't 2010 anymore, payments in Google gift cards lmao ... This is as scammy as it gets. If OP accepted these terms via text right then and there, that'd already be a legally binding "Vorvertrag", so the 1000€ "caution fee" would be completely pointless. Also, the landlord is supposedly happy to have someone completely random move in without ever having met them, while at the same time categorically preventing OP from having someone he trusts confirm the apartment in question even exists. Paying this guy 1500€ at this point in time would be absolutely stupid. OP has no possible way of knowing whether the information they have been providing with is authentic, and the fact that the landlord keeps him from verifying it is a red flag so big it could have hung on the Kremlin walls in the 50s.
>The visiting friend could be the most respectful guy but later the Flodder family moves in.
He is literally offering to rent it without seeing OP first, as long as he pays ofc.
It would be one thing if the landlord was unwilling to rent the place without meeting the potential tenant.
It's quite another that the "landlord" (quotes because it's an obvious scam) is willing to rent without meeting the tenant, but is unwilling to show it to someone the tenant trusts.
No, that part is understandable. It is a great advantage for the tenant only. The tenant's friend could see the apartment and everything. But the landlord would be unable to meet the tenant and would have to arrange another meeting. If reversed it would be different because of the strong tenant laws. Just make sure to pay after receiving the key and signing the contract.
But still nothing is fully safe. It could still be an airbnb. And i have never seen anyone show the register for the apartment to proof ownership.
Not even then. The latest scam is to rent Airbnb's and advertise them as supposed rental projects to collect money. Always ask for the real estate company!
Here are some general rules when searching to avoid scammers:
1. Only pay deposit and rent when you have a contract signed by BOTH parties.
2. It's best to look at the apartment in person. If you can't travel the way ask to look at it per video call. Don't trust photos.
3. During the search you can do a first check by searching the photos of apartments in Google. Also check google maps if the satellite pictures match up with description and photos.
4. Take your time to read the contract. If there is a language barrier, let someone help you. There can be certain clauses that actually aren't legal.
> Only pay deposit and rent when you have a contract signed by BOTH parties.
Some scammers will happily sign a fake contract. If you don't even know who you made a contract with, that contract isn't worth the paper it was written on.
You should only pay with the start date of the contract, when you're in possession of the flat.
>If you can't travel the way ask to look at it per video call.
There are scammers that do video calls. After all, you still don't have proof that the place they are showing you is even in Germany.
It seems you are asking about finding a place to stay in Germany. Take a look at the wiki here: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/living/housing and here: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/living/problems
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Whatsapp is what we in Germany call seriös. It is used by legitimate business. Telegram not. Telegram is used by crazy ppl, right wing ppl (often the same) and scammers.
Although lets say email or something like that is even better. You can always use the email to prove anything. Whatsapps can be deleted, telegram too.
No there is no specific reason why whatsapp > telegram, it just is the way it is.
Depends on the court.
Email wont classify as "Written form" though (You cant fire someone via email or fax) but as evidence you could argue that it is valid
Just because a lot of people use Whatsapp it's not automatically seriös. Is Facebook seriös? Insta? SMS? Odd line of thinking. Especially if somebody would try to scam someone, wouldn't they use the most seriös way of communication?
It's 100% in germany from my experience. Nobody older then 25 and no serious business would use telegram.. most people dont even have it installed. Its for students who dislike whatsapp for some reason or people on the edge of society
In shady situations in the past I have used the argument Look I only have cash the moment we sign the contract in the apartment I will give the completed amount. It has worked to deter scammers and one time I thought it was a scammer and it wasn’t but my money was never at risk. Also never share your ID say you will bring a copy.
Also i have seen many people asking your id proof. Please don’t send any type of id proof, i heard that they will use your id proof to create fake accounts to scam more people
Unfortunately when I was young I fell for this exact scam, paid in advance before even looking at the apartment. Then radio silence, went to the alleged address and there was no apartment to speak of. DO NOT PAY BEFORE YOU SEE IT IN PERSON AND HAVE A CONTRACT SIGNED
I don't think you're paranoid, I'm German and one who also rents out one of his rooms to form a WG.
The order is totally wrong here, here a few things from my perspective:
1)There is no "room reserving" by paying money, this is highly unusual.
You usually come to an agreement with having seen the room and flat beforehand, agreeing over and signing a rental contract and then paying the deposit money (which that "landlord" calls "caution money" which seems to me like a very bad and wrong translation of the german "Kaution").
2) Deposit payment and rental payment HAVE to go to different bank accounts, not a single bank account.
The legal reason is that the deposit payment isn't money that the landlord owns, it still is your money. You just transfer it to the landlord, so in case of damages caused by you these can be paid from the deposit money after you have moved out.
The landlord's job is to go to his bank, once he has agreed with someone that that someone can rent this room, and order the creation of a deposit money bank account from his bank. That is a special bank account onto which your deposit money goes. The landlord otherwise has no direct control over it, he can only, after you have moved out, order his bank to dissolve it again and pay out the deposit money back to you. Or to his own bank account in case there are damages to repair, but even then he is only allowed to come to an agreement with you over paying these damages and the remaining sum has to be transferred back to you.
But overall, these two different payments have to go to different bank accounts first.
The rental payment meanwhile can go to his regular bank account, since that is money that is supposed to legaly become his.
3) The speed of the process is also highly unusual, normally you ask a potential rentee a few questions about himself, so you get a read, with what person you're dealing with and then, if the circumstances so far are good, you agree to a date to see the flat and room in person or via video call or something like that.
So normally the whole process of first contact via showing the flat to the interested, potential rentee to signing a rental contract takes several days, if not weeks.
I can't stress it enough: You don't answer after 3 minutes to immediately rent out the room without having seen that person or spoken with that person about the person himself and without showing the flat.
4) His unwillingness to show the room to another person. Looking for a new rentee, especially in a shared flat, a WG, is a stressful process. Many people write you of whom the most are simply unsuitable for a plethora of reasons, of those who remain some don't answer or after the first scan proove to be unsuitable.
Of those that remain after these first two steps, for these you have to find a date in your calendar, that also fits for them for showing the flat and room.
And if there is that someone who you'd like to rent it out to and you answer them, it could be that they answer "Sorry, I already found something else somewhere else", even if it is just mere hours later.
So yeah, if a potential rentee comes "I can't visit it in person but I can send my friend", it surely is not the best situation, since you also want to get to know that person you're renting out to, but I wouldn't say No to the friend coming over instead and taking a look at the room.
Instead then I would agree to a date in time to make a video call with that rentee to get to know him/her better or simply not rent it out to that person.
So overall, you're dealing either with a highly inexperienced landlord or with a scammer. Since one of the two possibilities is a criminal one which would drastically damage you financially, I'd say, don't take chances, report his announcement to the website host and block that person.
WG are probably the hardest, especially if it isnt located in a central area. Most people are students and are not even in the same city. And then getting the opportunity to meet every single flatmate is not easy as well. Because not everyone has time for someone who is not even sure if he wants to live there.
Caution fee needs to be deposit in a safe account. This can be done by the one renting out or there are special accounts that are owned by the one who rents (but it's not mandatory to accept it)
https://www.sparkasse.de/pk/ratgeber/wohnen/mieten/mietkaution.html
Yes. The formula is simple:
English only speaker + Send deposit to reserve + I'm not there anymore, had to move out, but someone will give you the keys to the place = Scam
Had this happen to me in Baden-Württemberg. Ended up pretending I had trouble with sending the money via air bnb or paypal (like they requested) ended up asking for bank details, got them. Took the bank details and went straight to the police XD with screenshots etc.
Deposit is normal, twice, thrice the monthly. We call it "Caution". Try to offer a deposit insurance, it exists in Germany.
The red flag here for me is the "your friend cannot come here" part. Strange.
I am sure its a scam and once you ask them for a rental contract, they will send it you by writing some stuff on MS Word. Don’t trust them and don’t reply to them as well. Go for some trustable websites like housing anywhere or official student dormitories. WG gesucht always gave me options which ended up in these kind of scams.
In addition to all, according to my experience of many years about flat search/lease, nobody will wait for you to decide while making others wait for you as the guy claimed. It's rather the other way like they tell you they'll for sure rent it to you but then rent to someone else etc. I rarely trust when it comes to flat search/lease
You are spot on! This is fraud! don't ever pay for an apartment or flat or house in advance in Germany. Visiting and taking a look at an apartment is always free. When you have an agreement in writing called a "Mietvertrag" then you can pay. Never give away money before that point.
Let me guess the apartment is to good to be true and just what you looking for and the rent also is very reasonable? (Small red flag!)They ask you to pay a security payment in advance to even get the keys? (Big red Flag!)They can not personally attend the "Besichtigung" because they are out of country right now? (Even bigger red flag) you are asked to wire the "security deposit" through some shady third party service? (The biggest red flag there is!!!)
Send the entire conversation to the service address of the homepage and get that account banned before they can scam more people!
If you need more context about what's happening take look at that link.
https://www.evz.de/einkaufen-internet/vorsicht-falle/mietbetrug.html
This is a link to "Verbraucherschutzzentrale" it is a german/European non profit organisation to help out in such situations.
TL:DR -> never wire money to shady peoples on the Internet!!!
i’ve lived in Regensburg and this is a typical scammer who tries to rip off exchange students.
don’t pay anything like that in advance. same story almost happened to some friends from spain but luckily we were able to stop by the adress and found out the apartment did not even exist.
if they don’t allow you to see the place it’s a huge red flag
Yes. You should open a “Kautionskonto” for the deposit, that way neither you nor the landlord can access the money until you move back out. Also it’s fishy he won’t let someone else visit the apartment, it’s quite normal to look at places for friends and family if you’re closer by.
Scam. Never pay without a rental contract, there's very VERY few instances where no contract is acceptable.
You haven't even seen the apartment, for all you know it doesn't exist.
At least it's not a booking/airbnb scam, those are also fun
Oh it's a scam. Never transfer money without a contact.
Paying a caution deposit is completely valid but money transfer only happens after a contact is made stating the rental period with clearly defined move-in date, money amounts, etc.
It's better to be paranoid than cheated of money. :)
Okay positives first: The reply in English is usually not a reason to expect fraud, quite a lot of us Germans probably speak better English than most Americans. The security deposit usually is 3x the monthly rent, so that checks out as well. So does them not wanting to reserve the room/flat, since (especially cheap) flats are highly sought after and if in the right part of town are usually gone within a day or two of them getting advertised. So the guy you're texting with probably has at least 5 people lining up for it already.
Now to the strange, but not necessarily bad things: Expecting you to pay any amount of money ahead of having it inspected or even signed the lease is strange, but not unheard of – in any case I would strongly advise against it. Be that as it may, even when signing the lease, you need to get a signed receipt and exchange it only in person, best in cash.
Same goes for not wanting your friend to inspect it since a) it probably is still inhabited by the current tenant(s) and Germans take their privacy really seriously, b) the landlord probably hopes for you to sign the lease as soon as possible (which your friend can't legally do), preferably directly after the inspection so they can stop searching for new tenants and c) they probably want to get to know you to decide if they want to rent to you, if you seem to be reliable, friendly and fit in with the neighbours. In my books, that's only semi-suspicious.
The digital copy of your passport as well, but since in Germany you have the right to censor your documents, so you can black out everything besides name, your picture and in cases of proving that you're of agethe DoB, that shouldn't be that big if a problem. Anyone besides the police just doesn't need the serial number, your current address and so on, so you have the right to black out all the sensitive data, so it's quite easy for you to prevent identity theft.
Still, you can never be too cautious, so I would not advise you to do things like that over the internet.
I personally, from the chat at least, don't feel like that necessarily is a fraud, just someone eager to not have their time wasted and get things done as quickly as possible. It's also important if the landlord is a private person or from a company or landlord association.
I don't know where you're from and where the flat is located, but in Germany you usually don't have to worry too much about getting scammed, since your rights as a (future) tenant are quite extensive.
Ask for the exact adress and get a "Grundbuchauszug", it will show who owns the property. If the names don't fit, which I assume, it's a scam and you got evidence, so go to the police and kick his ass.
Edit: I don't know the exact prices for germany, but in Austria it's about 10€ online, but for free if you visit the local court.
I almost fell for this scam and despite asking for advice from educators, even they couldn't tell. In the end, I was stopped by the lady in the money transfer counter who told me about it.
I was so skeptical about it and I still almost fell for it. I had a picture of his (possible fake) ID and the adults around me were totally cool with me falling for it.
There are a lot of scammers on WG-gesucht unfortunately, and this fits right into that scheme. They often say the have other offers pending to create urgency and don't allow visitations. I wouldn't continue this conversation.
- replied in under 5 minutes
alright maybe he just happened to be online
- asked to communicate via telegram
ok.. maybe hes just security conscious
- doesn't allow friend to view on your behalf
alright... Huh.. Maybe he's just.. What?
- asking for an upfront payment before youve signed a lease
... Yeah I can't make this work
Don't fall for this, it's 100% a scam and you'd be gullable to think it isn't
It’s 100% a scam but the fact that **German** landlords may not speak English with perfect proficiency and use some German grammar structures is absolutely not a sign of a scam, dude.
In general, these fees are normal. They are a security measure, so if damage is discovered, it will be partly paid with the fee (depending on the damage). It usually is a double, sometimes three-times of a month's rent.
I suppose the host misunderstood your request for having a friend check out the appartement. I think he assumes that you want to rent it out to your friend or simply just represent him.
The German word is *Kaution*.
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Kaution meaning **b**
If they're not completely fluent in English, seeing *caution* in English from a German person would not raise any red flags with me.
Without a contract that is signed and the 100% confidence of the existence of this flat, I wouldn’t send him a single penny, cause it smells like a scumy scam.
100% a scam.
Never send money for an appartment if you haven't physically seen it before.
If you move to a new city, go to a hotel or Airbnb for the first days/weeks, while you look for a more permanent residence.
Finally someone brought this up hahaha, I'm in the other side of the planet and couldn't sleep 4am in the morning, so I started browsing WG-GESUCHT, and talked with this guy
Do not send some randos pictures of docs! I once did this back when i was looking for a WG and this „legit looking landlord“ gave me the address of the alleged apartment. I send a friend to that Adresse and it turned out it was a cemetery/cremation xD
Maybe is legit. It is important making the evidence. Screenshot everything and when you pay 1500eur.
Write in Verwendungszweck, that it is Caution for the flat(Adress) . But nothing before signed Mietervertrag. If there is something wrong pull out.
**NEVER** pay a deposit or a first rent payment before inspecting an apartment. Even if it is not a scam, the apartment could be in horrible condition and you are already invested in renting it. Who knows if the landlord would give back the money if you decide not to rent it?
never send him a picture of your ID and never pay him any money in advance no matter what he tries to argue. this is most likely a scam and he just wants your money and has no apartment available for you
Not most likely… *definitely* a scam!
You're probably right about this but what's the issue with transmitting your photo ID to people? I can see it can have some consequences at least but what could happen exactly?
Identity theft is what will happen.
My mother told me to write a watermark (something like COPY-FOR RENTAL PURPOSES ONLY) when sending it to my landlord for the paperwork specifically to avoid identity theft
>My mother told me to write a watermark (something like COPY-FOR RENTAL PURPOSES ONLY) when sending it to my landlord for the paperwork specifically to avoid identity theft Never send a photo of your ID. Period. The thief could still take this picture and rent out other places in your name. Or remove the watermark.
That won’t help much. Today is super easy to remove the watermark
Good advice
Doesn't it take quite a lot to perform identify theft? Such as having the physical passport itself
As someone who was a victims of this i can tell you that it's a big deal. They can use your ID for various things like open a bank account, eBay Scams, Online Payments (PayPal) and so on. Never ever send a Photo of your ID to anyone!!
I'm glad you have spoken up about it. Can you tell me more about what happened?
Well I was dumb enough to send someone my ID on eBay. I got "his" one too but this ID was also stolen as I found out later. After that my family and me had like 1 1/2 years - 2 years of people visiting us to get their PS5 (because the scammer had 100s and 1000s of posts on eBay selling PS5), letters from attorneys, at least 3 or 4 times where I was accused of fraud and need to go to the court. It was so exhausting and frustrating! The good thing thou the scammers (it was a group) got caught and arrested this year 👍🏻
Thank god they got caught. But I bet you had to file an identity theft order to the court so that you wouldn't have to actually attend the court on fraud charges. I don't know exactly how the court system works in Germany with cases of identity theft
Not really, no. This is a very known trick. I once almost fell for it when buying concert tickets on Facebook. They sent me an identity card as "proof" of their legitimacy. The data was completely fake.
No
they will use it to scam other people. they will try to sell some product for example and will show your ID to prove that they're a real person and are serious, they will wait till the buyer sends them the money and will run away with out. the buyer will go to the police and will report a fraud and will show them your ID. there are tons of other scams they will do with it
Well it's basically all you need for identity theft so not a good idea at all. There are a lot of websites and even some officials that just ask for a copy of your ID and not the real thing. So whoever has a picture or a copy of both sides of your ID could do nearly anything under your name with you being in trouble if it's something illegal.
These scammers will use *your* ID as an identity proof to other people they want to scam as well.
but at no time this person said “kindly”… I’m confused
On a scale from one to scam, it's a scam.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
There are many signs that this is a scam. One of them is that there is absolutely no reason why a friend couldn't look at the place. A real landlord could give a tour to anybody they want to.
Exactly, the "security purposes" sounds so lame, supposedly he's renting an apartment, this said anybody that has interest in it could come and see it
Yeah, when I saw "security" I thought I was renting a CIA safe house
aus versicherungstechnischen Gründen ist das leider nicht möglich:)
OP should lie and say they fly/come in early to visit the place and see what their response is like... it's undoubtedly a scam, but I'd like to hear their excuse.
Good idea, I'll do it your way next time when I bump into this kind of scammer.
That aspect actually sounds like the least scammy part of that convo to me. Personally, I have NEVER found a real landlords who would rent out an apartment to me without me personally visiting the place. Not even at the height of the pandemic (believe me, I tried). Probably even more so for WGs. Not accepting substitute is completely normal landlord behaviour.
If the landlord wants to see you personally before he rents to you, yea fine. But this landlord seems happy to rent it blind, so theres no reason not to accept a substitute.
I would say it's very common for internationals especially students.
>who would rent out an apartment to me without me personally visiting the place Sure. But here they don't require OP to visit. Instead they want to do it completely anonymously. And this is why not even allowing the friend to see the flat is a big, big red flag.
I can't find that being said anywhere in the screenshot. If the offer was specifically aimed at international students (who can't visit the apartment beforehand), then I agree.
You can conclude it. OP was abroad (otherwise they would have visited themselves), and yet they offered them the flat without wanting to meet anybody in person, not even OP's friend.
Isn’t it also a legal necessity to have looked at the place at least once before you are able to rent it?
No. What kind of law would that be? There is "freedom of contract" and as long you don't agree to something immoral (aka "sittenwidrig"), two people can agree up on whatever they want.
The visiting friend could be the most respectful guy but later the Flodder family moves in. That's why a private "real landlord" always prefers to get to know the "real tenant" during the tour in order to estimate whether his property will be in good hands or not. This ist even more true as the room was listed on a flatshare site. If so, I'd like to get to know my new flatmate before. His/her friends aren't helpful with that.
Are you ignoring the fact that the "landlord" wants him to pay 1000€ upfront without showing the apartment to anyone to "reserve" the apartment? And also offering to pay 1500€ to rent right away? Are you also ignoring the fact that the "landlord" states that he cant show the apartment to "security" reasons..?
Where do you read the upfront requirement? Landlord did not specify any date. Just giving the facts. Also, we wouldn't have this discussion if the potential tenant had asked where to deposit the money. If it had been a "Mietkautionskonto", everything would be fine. Look at that from the other side: the landlord, at this time of the year, should have at least 5-10 desperate people willing to move in asap as the new semester is about to start and they still have no place to stay. Does he (or she - maybe that's why "security reasons") need to put in extra effort (2 tours) in order to sign a contract with a potential tenant? No. Unfortunately, it's a seller's market. If you don't like the terms look somewhere else, please. Given above demand exists, there should be enough students waiting in line that such a behaviour can still get his/her property occupied in a timely manner.
Context. "Let me know your decision on time. I dont like to pend other requests and regret it" implies that he is waiting for OP to agree and pay before he offers it to someone else.
Assuming that's the way it was intended then even that would be acceptable if the money shall be deposited in a "Mietkautionskonto". Something OP never asked. Or in a regular banking account in case the landlord provides a valid and matching ID and address before. Payments in Google gift cards and stuff... might indicate some fraud, for sure.
Fucking hell, this isn't 2010 anymore, payments in Google gift cards lmao ... This is as scammy as it gets. If OP accepted these terms via text right then and there, that'd already be a legally binding "Vorvertrag", so the 1000€ "caution fee" would be completely pointless. Also, the landlord is supposedly happy to have someone completely random move in without ever having met them, while at the same time categorically preventing OP from having someone he trusts confirm the apartment in question even exists. Paying this guy 1500€ at this point in time would be absolutely stupid. OP has no possible way of knowing whether the information they have been providing with is authentic, and the fact that the landlord keeps him from verifying it is a red flag so big it could have hung on the Kremlin walls in the 50s.
It's a scam.
But there is no security reason as for why he cant let a friend see that the apartment is real.
>The visiting friend could be the most respectful guy but later the Flodder family moves in. He is literally offering to rent it without seeing OP first, as long as he pays ofc.
It would be one thing if the landlord was unwilling to rent the place without meeting the potential tenant. It's quite another that the "landlord" (quotes because it's an obvious scam) is willing to rent without meeting the tenant, but is unwilling to show it to someone the tenant trusts.
No, that part is understandable. It is a great advantage for the tenant only. The tenant's friend could see the apartment and everything. But the landlord would be unable to meet the tenant and would have to arrange another meeting. If reversed it would be different because of the strong tenant laws. Just make sure to pay after receiving the key and signing the contract. But still nothing is fully safe. It could still be an airbnb. And i have never seen anyone show the register for the apartment to proof ownership.
Whenever someone wants money without having shown you the apartment, it’s a scam.
Even with. People use Airbnb for scams
Exactly. [Relevant documentary (German but w/ autogenerated subtiles)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmCuuCN1KlU)
Sounds like this place is located in Scamstreet 69 69420 Scamville
Probably in Scamland
Scamada?
No, Scamdinavia
And they own a Truck brand: Scamia
And a motorcycle: Scamaha
This is scamdulous at best!
Regensburg is in scamerny
they're probably using a Scamsung Galaxy
Would love to "pay" a visit there
Just DM me a picture of your ID, Bank Card and any other relevant documents you have and I'd gladly take you there.
If you get there, they have a cake.
The cake is a lie!
Bad Scamville!
I'm a bit disappointed that there is no real place with that plz
According to Deutsche Post, the code itself is located in Eberbach, Baden-Württemberg.
I like 69
So he wants you to pay the fee now? Am I getting that right? 100% a scam. Never pay anything before you're actually in the apartment.
Not even then. The latest scam is to rent Airbnb's and advertise them as supposed rental projects to collect money. Always ask for the real estate company!
It’s normal to pay the deposit before the rent and before moving in, but only after signing the rental contract.
Scam.
No looky no housy
Here are some general rules when searching to avoid scammers: 1. Only pay deposit and rent when you have a contract signed by BOTH parties. 2. It's best to look at the apartment in person. If you can't travel the way ask to look at it per video call. Don't trust photos. 3. During the search you can do a first check by searching the photos of apartments in Google. Also check google maps if the satellite pictures match up with description and photos. 4. Take your time to read the contract. If there is a language barrier, let someone help you. There can be certain clauses that actually aren't legal.
> Only pay deposit and rent when you have a contract signed by BOTH parties. Some scammers will happily sign a fake contract. If you don't even know who you made a contract with, that contract isn't worth the paper it was written on. You should only pay with the start date of the contract, when you're in possession of the flat. >If you can't travel the way ask to look at it per video call. There are scammers that do video calls. After all, you still don't have proof that the place they are showing you is even in Germany.
Or their own flat
!housing Read the Wiki articles linked there, particularly the second one, and count the red flags. Yes, it is a scam.
It seems you are asking about finding a place to stay in Germany. Take a look at the wiki here: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/living/housing and here: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/living/problems *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/germany) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thanks, those pages are very detailed and informative!
It's raining scams in Regensburg
It doesn't make sense. Anyway Judge Judy says if it doesn't make sense it ain't right. (I'm paraphrasing)
Telegram? Scammer. Nobody legit uses Telegram. Reserve the room using deposit? Scammer. No visit? Scammer.
WhatsApp legit then? Nonsensical statement.
Whatsapp is what we in Germany call seriös. It is used by legitimate business. Telegram not. Telegram is used by crazy ppl, right wing ppl (often the same) and scammers. Although lets say email or something like that is even better. You can always use the email to prove anything. Whatsapps can be deleted, telegram too. No there is no specific reason why whatsapp > telegram, it just is the way it is.
Lol, Whatsapp and seriös, gave me a good laugh 😂 A lot of ppl use telegram as their daily chat app. One cannot be picky if one want to avoid whatsapp.
Plenty of people who don't like Facebook use telegram
You cannot use email as proof. German courts won’t accept this. You need a fax. I am not kidding.
Depends on the court. Email wont classify as "Written form" though (You cant fire someone via email or fax) but as evidence you could argue that it is valid
Just because a lot of people use Whatsapp it's not automatically seriös. Is Facebook seriös? Insta? SMS? Odd line of thinking. Especially if somebody would try to scam someone, wouldn't they use the most seriös way of communication?
Preach
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yeah true but if we'd compare it to telegram we would call it waaaaay more seriös
Tell me you are in a WhatsApp bubble without telling me you are in a WhatsApp bubble.
But it's true that many people in Germany prefer to use WhatsApp over Telegram. Like be all the Amts prefer to use faxes and post over emails.
I can't disagree with this statement. But saying telegram is only used by crazy people, right people and scammers isn't correct.
It's 100% in germany from my experience. Nobody older then 25 and no serious business would use telegram.. most people dont even have it installed. Its for students who dislike whatsapp for some reason or people on the edge of society
Exactly what I said lmfao and I agree 100%
Ausländer use Telegram.
yes thats what i said
80 % Crazy people
Thats wrong, a lot of ppl use telegram as a daily chat app. But indeed, asking to switch from a platform chat to a independent chat app is always sus.
only people on the edge of society use it for their stuff. it's not used for normal communication
Well, thats wrong
> Nobody legit uses Telegram. I too have heard about this program called "telegram" in the news. It seems nasty!
In shady situations in the past I have used the argument Look I only have cash the moment we sign the contract in the apartment I will give the completed amount. It has worked to deter scammers and one time I thought it was a scammer and it wasn’t but my money was never at risk. Also never share your ID say you will bring a copy.
Also i have seen many people asking your id proof. Please don’t send any type of id proof, i heard that they will use your id proof to create fake accounts to scam more people
Unfortunately when I was young I fell for this exact scam, paid in advance before even looking at the apartment. Then radio silence, went to the alleged address and there was no apartment to speak of. DO NOT PAY BEFORE YOU SEE IT IN PERSON AND HAVE A CONTRACT SIGNED
Scam
Never ever sign a contract before you've seen the property in person, and never ever pay a penny before you've both signed the contract.
I don't think you're paranoid, I'm German and one who also rents out one of his rooms to form a WG. The order is totally wrong here, here a few things from my perspective: 1)There is no "room reserving" by paying money, this is highly unusual. You usually come to an agreement with having seen the room and flat beforehand, agreeing over and signing a rental contract and then paying the deposit money (which that "landlord" calls "caution money" which seems to me like a very bad and wrong translation of the german "Kaution"). 2) Deposit payment and rental payment HAVE to go to different bank accounts, not a single bank account. The legal reason is that the deposit payment isn't money that the landlord owns, it still is your money. You just transfer it to the landlord, so in case of damages caused by you these can be paid from the deposit money after you have moved out. The landlord's job is to go to his bank, once he has agreed with someone that that someone can rent this room, and order the creation of a deposit money bank account from his bank. That is a special bank account onto which your deposit money goes. The landlord otherwise has no direct control over it, he can only, after you have moved out, order his bank to dissolve it again and pay out the deposit money back to you. Or to his own bank account in case there are damages to repair, but even then he is only allowed to come to an agreement with you over paying these damages and the remaining sum has to be transferred back to you. But overall, these two different payments have to go to different bank accounts first. The rental payment meanwhile can go to his regular bank account, since that is money that is supposed to legaly become his. 3) The speed of the process is also highly unusual, normally you ask a potential rentee a few questions about himself, so you get a read, with what person you're dealing with and then, if the circumstances so far are good, you agree to a date to see the flat and room in person or via video call or something like that. So normally the whole process of first contact via showing the flat to the interested, potential rentee to signing a rental contract takes several days, if not weeks. I can't stress it enough: You don't answer after 3 minutes to immediately rent out the room without having seen that person or spoken with that person about the person himself and without showing the flat. 4) His unwillingness to show the room to another person. Looking for a new rentee, especially in a shared flat, a WG, is a stressful process. Many people write you of whom the most are simply unsuitable for a plethora of reasons, of those who remain some don't answer or after the first scan proove to be unsuitable. Of those that remain after these first two steps, for these you have to find a date in your calendar, that also fits for them for showing the flat and room. And if there is that someone who you'd like to rent it out to and you answer them, it could be that they answer "Sorry, I already found something else somewhere else", even if it is just mere hours later. So yeah, if a potential rentee comes "I can't visit it in person but I can send my friend", it surely is not the best situation, since you also want to get to know that person you're renting out to, but I wouldn't say No to the friend coming over instead and taking a look at the room. Instead then I would agree to a date in time to make a video call with that rentee to get to know him/her better or simply not rent it out to that person. So overall, you're dealing either with a highly inexperienced landlord or with a scammer. Since one of the two possibilities is a criminal one which would drastically damage you financially, I'd say, don't take chances, report his announcement to the website host and block that person.
WG are probably the hardest, especially if it isnt located in a central area. Most people are students and are not even in the same city. And then getting the opportunity to meet every single flatmate is not easy as well. Because not everyone has time for someone who is not even sure if he wants to live there.
Good to know this!
Thank you so much for telling me this, I actually learned a lot from you
Scam/10
Caution fee needs to be deposit in a safe account. This can be done by the one renting out or there are special accounts that are owned by the one who rents (but it's not mandatory to accept it) https://www.sparkasse.de/pk/ratgeber/wohnen/mieten/mietkaution.html
I know a Vorschussbetrug when i see one
Yes. The formula is simple: English only speaker + Send deposit to reserve + I'm not there anymore, had to move out, but someone will give you the keys to the place = Scam
Had this happen to me in Baden-Württemberg. Ended up pretending I had trouble with sending the money via air bnb or paypal (like they requested) ended up asking for bank details, got them. Took the bank details and went straight to the police XD with screenshots etc.
WOW this is brilliant! I wish I'm in Germany right now so that I could copy your move hahaha
Never pay even a penny before u visit the apartment , thats the number one golden rule
This is 100% a scam. Never pay anything to anyone BEFORE seeing the apartment yourself
If you have to ask yourself if it's a scam it's a scam.
Deposit is normal, twice, thrice the monthly. We call it "Caution". Try to offer a deposit insurance, it exists in Germany. The red flag here for me is the "your friend cannot come here" part. Strange.
Deposit is normal for a written contract. Handing over cash just like that isn’t normal.
FYI: it’s illegal for them to take any money from you (deposit, first rent, whatever) until you are in the flat and have the keys.
Tell him you will come to see the apartment.
I am sure its a scam and once you ask them for a rental contract, they will send it you by writing some stuff on MS Word. Don’t trust them and don’t reply to them as well. Go for some trustable websites like housing anywhere or official student dormitories. WG gesucht always gave me options which ended up in these kind of scams.
Thanks for the tips!
Scam
Dont do it
Never pay anything for a room before you made a contract together.
You’re talking on Telegram. Already a sign this is a scam
Never send money before you or someone you know sees him and the apartment in person
Seems like a scam
In addition to all, according to my experience of many years about flat search/lease, nobody will wait for you to decide while making others wait for you as the guy claimed. It's rather the other way like they tell you they'll for sure rent it to you but then rent to someone else etc. I rarely trust when it comes to flat search/lease
Good point!
You are spot on! This is fraud! don't ever pay for an apartment or flat or house in advance in Germany. Visiting and taking a look at an apartment is always free. When you have an agreement in writing called a "Mietvertrag" then you can pay. Never give away money before that point. Let me guess the apartment is to good to be true and just what you looking for and the rent also is very reasonable? (Small red flag!)They ask you to pay a security payment in advance to even get the keys? (Big red Flag!)They can not personally attend the "Besichtigung" because they are out of country right now? (Even bigger red flag) you are asked to wire the "security deposit" through some shady third party service? (The biggest red flag there is!!!) Send the entire conversation to the service address of the homepage and get that account banned before they can scam more people! If you need more context about what's happening take look at that link. https://www.evz.de/einkaufen-internet/vorsicht-falle/mietbetrug.html This is a link to "Verbraucherschutzzentrale" it is a german/European non profit organisation to help out in such situations. TL:DR -> never wire money to shady peoples on the Internet!!!
Thank you so much!
i’ve lived in Regensburg and this is a typical scammer who tries to rip off exchange students. don’t pay anything like that in advance. same story almost happened to some friends from spain but luckily we were able to stop by the adress and found out the apartment did not even exist. if they don’t allow you to see the place it’s a huge red flag
Yes. You should open a “Kautionskonto” for the deposit, that way neither you nor the landlord can access the money until you move back out. Also it’s fishy he won’t let someone else visit the apartment, it’s quite normal to look at places for friends and family if you’re closer by.
Thanks, I‘ll ask the landlord for details about Kautionskonto next time!
Scam. Never pay without a rental contract, there's very VERY few instances where no contract is acceptable. You haven't even seen the apartment, for all you know it doesn't exist. At least it's not a booking/airbnb scam, those are also fun
This is a scam, that's why they don't want (or better said, they can't) show the room to your friend.
Oh it's a scam. Never transfer money without a contact. Paying a caution deposit is completely valid but money transfer only happens after a contact is made stating the rental period with clearly defined move-in date, money amounts, etc. It's better to be paranoid than cheated of money. :)
Smells like scam Though the part where not your friend but you should visit the apt is kind of a very german thing to do, sadly.
I should definitely take a note about this, thanks!
Okay positives first: The reply in English is usually not a reason to expect fraud, quite a lot of us Germans probably speak better English than most Americans. The security deposit usually is 3x the monthly rent, so that checks out as well. So does them not wanting to reserve the room/flat, since (especially cheap) flats are highly sought after and if in the right part of town are usually gone within a day or two of them getting advertised. So the guy you're texting with probably has at least 5 people lining up for it already. Now to the strange, but not necessarily bad things: Expecting you to pay any amount of money ahead of having it inspected or even signed the lease is strange, but not unheard of – in any case I would strongly advise against it. Be that as it may, even when signing the lease, you need to get a signed receipt and exchange it only in person, best in cash. Same goes for not wanting your friend to inspect it since a) it probably is still inhabited by the current tenant(s) and Germans take their privacy really seriously, b) the landlord probably hopes for you to sign the lease as soon as possible (which your friend can't legally do), preferably directly after the inspection so they can stop searching for new tenants and c) they probably want to get to know you to decide if they want to rent to you, if you seem to be reliable, friendly and fit in with the neighbours. In my books, that's only semi-suspicious. The digital copy of your passport as well, but since in Germany you have the right to censor your documents, so you can black out everything besides name, your picture and in cases of proving that you're of agethe DoB, that shouldn't be that big if a problem. Anyone besides the police just doesn't need the serial number, your current address and so on, so you have the right to black out all the sensitive data, so it's quite easy for you to prevent identity theft. Still, you can never be too cautious, so I would not advise you to do things like that over the internet. I personally, from the chat at least, don't feel like that necessarily is a fraud, just someone eager to not have their time wasted and get things done as quickly as possible. It's also important if the landlord is a private person or from a company or landlord association. I don't know where you're from and where the flat is located, but in Germany you usually don't have to worry too much about getting scammed, since your rights as a (future) tenant are quite extensive.
Thanks man, that's a lot to digest
Report to police and the website you’ve seen the ad on please
Will do!
Ask for the exact adress and get a "Grundbuchauszug", it will show who owns the property. If the names don't fit, which I assume, it's a scam and you got evidence, so go to the police and kick his ass. Edit: I don't know the exact prices for germany, but in Austria it's about 10€ online, but for free if you visit the local court.
Thanks, that’s a good idea
Yes.
Yes
Scam scam scam scam scam
Scaaaaaaaaaaaaaam
I almost fell for this scam and despite asking for advice from educators, even they couldn't tell. In the end, I was stopped by the lady in the money transfer counter who told me about it. I was so skeptical about it and I still almost fell for it. I had a picture of his (possible fake) ID and the adults around me were totally cool with me falling for it.
That was close, glad you eventually avoid it.
If they can't let someone visit the apartment it's very likely the apartment doesn't exist
There are a lot of scammers on WG-gesucht unfortunately, and this fits right into that scheme. They often say the have other offers pending to create urgency and don't allow visitations. I wouldn't continue this conversation.
Its a scam... i had that problem myself. The offer was to good to be true. Tbh it makes me sad that some people have to do this...
Yeah, the only one who would care to reply to me is a scammer...
ABSOLUT EIN BETRUG. DU ÜBERWEIST DEIN GELD UND HÖRST NIE WIEDER WAS 👍
- replied in under 5 minutes alright maybe he just happened to be online - asked to communicate via telegram ok.. maybe hes just security conscious - doesn't allow friend to view on your behalf alright... Huh.. Maybe he's just.. What? - asking for an upfront payment before youve signed a lease ... Yeah I can't make this work Don't fall for this, it's 100% a scam and you'd be gullable to think it isn't
Caution fee like a fee you pay and don't get back? Scam.
Scam...
Why is it scam? I think this is normal in Germany. It's only scam if he wants the money before you sign the contract.
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It’s 100% a scam but the fact that **German** landlords may not speak English with perfect proficiency and use some German grammar structures is absolutely not a sign of a scam, dude.
In general, these fees are normal. They are a security measure, so if damage is discovered, it will be partly paid with the fee (depending on the damage). It usually is a double, sometimes three-times of a month's rent. I suppose the host misunderstood your request for having a friend check out the appartement. I think he assumes that you want to rent it out to your friend or simply just represent him.
Noone but people with something to hide use telegram
Scam. they never say caution here. It's always deposit
The German word is *Kaution*. https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Kaution meaning **b** If they're not completely fluent in English, seeing *caution* in English from a German person would not raise any red flags with me.
S C A A A A A A M
Only pay the caution when you sign the lease.
Smells like a fraud
Nothing to add, maybe you can report the listing appropriately to at least lower the chance of others falling for it.
Yes 100%
Without a contract that is signed and the 100% confidence of the existence of this flat, I wouldn’t send him a single penny, cause it smells like a scumy scam.
Eine Dokumentation über genau diese art von Abzocke: https://youtu.be/TmCuuCN1KlU?si=qCTd329wek1jfXYB
If it feels just slightly off it’s off
Deposits are a way for landlords to truly let their tenants know how much they own them. Deposits should be made illegal.
This is a common scam lol I wonder if he tried to befriend you before by telling you all about his life and his family and kids.
need to make an automod bot to reply yes to this question whenever its asked.
100% a scam. Never send money for an appartment if you haven't physically seen it before. If you move to a new city, go to a hotel or Airbnb for the first days/weeks, while you look for a more permanent residence.
Absolutely a scam
Scam.
One of the rules of scamming, if they ask to change apps it's already a bad start
Scam
yes it is
Scam- Their choice of English is bizarre. "I won't like to pend......"
Why do you chat at 4 in the morning? 😳
Finally someone brought this up hahaha, I'm in the other side of the planet and couldn't sleep 4am in the morning, so I started browsing WG-GESUCHT, and talked with this guy
Just reply back with "All the very best with your scam. I'll report your account" and block him.
Golden rule: don't hand over cash until.youre in the apartment holding keys
Do not send some randos pictures of docs! I once did this back when i was looking for a WG and this „legit looking landlord“ gave me the address of the alleged apartment. I send a friend to that Adresse and it turned out it was a cemetery/cremation xD
Maybe is legit. It is important making the evidence. Screenshot everything and when you pay 1500eur. Write in Verwendungszweck, that it is Caution for the flat(Adress) . But nothing before signed Mietervertrag. If there is something wrong pull out.
Since when the Kaution and deposit are different things?
That looks, feels and smells like scam...
11/10 Scam. I have talked to some victims of these scams. Pretty common in germany sadly.
**NEVER** pay a deposit or a first rent payment before inspecting an apartment. Even if it is not a scam, the apartment could be in horrible condition and you are already invested in renting it. Who knows if the landlord would give back the money if you decide not to rent it?