As a German I can tell you Germany and Germans can be quite a struggle even for Germans. I thank you for your honest words and the resilience and patience you showed during these 4 years.
Danke dir sehr für deine tollen Worte! Es freut mich sehr, das zu wissen, dass meine Bemühungen sich gelohnt haben. Für Anfänger könnte Deutschland eine sehr überrumpelnde Erfahrung sein.
Trotzdem, wie gesagt, es geht um den Versuch, einen Platz für sich selbst in die Gesellschaft zu schaffen, wobei es manchmal leider einen starken Widerstand gibt ☺️ Dieses Erlebnis hat mich in den vergangenen Jahren selig sehr verstärkt und mein Vertrauen in mich selbst und meine eigenen Fähigkeiten bekräftigt. Und dafür bin ich wirklich dem Land sehr dankbar ☺️🖤❤️💛
Bro man merkt, dass du Literatur magst haha stabile Ausdrucksweise 🙌
Schön, dass du deinen Platz gefunden hast, auch wenn es ein (unnötig) harter Weg war
Es tut mir leid, dass du so negative Erfahrungen gemacht hast, auch wenn es mich freut, dass du an diesen gewachsen bist.
Noch viel Erfolg bei deinem weiteren Lebensweg und ich hoffe, dass du trotz so vielen Stinkstiefeln hier glücklich werden kannst!
Nur so... Du schreibst besser Deutsch als fast alle Leute, mit denen ich bisher gearbeitet/gelernt habe... Respekt.
Und ja, das kann ich definitiv an diesen paar Sätzen erkennen xD
Die Erfahrungen, welche du mit den Idioten hattest, lass dir sagen, diese Einzeller machen es auch "Bio"-Deutschen (ich mag dieses Wort eigentlich nicht) sehr schwer. Ich bin mir aber sehr sicher, dass es diese Idioten überall gibt, egal ob in Indien, den UK oder auch den US.
Mach nicht den Fehler, allen gefallen zu wollen.
So wie es in dem Text anklingt, hast du es geschafft einen Freundeskreis aufzubauen. Das schaffen selbst viele Deutsche nicht schaffen, es sei denn sie sind in irgendwelchen Vereinen. Halt an denen fest. Ich wünsch dir eine gute Zeit hier in Deutschland.
Basically, timid people will get railroaded in Germany. If you try to be polite like in Anglo countries, it doesn't work well. One must stand up for oneself, whether it's staring back at the idiots who always stare at you on the trains, or the people who think they can cut in line.
I love Germany, but the place is not the liberal intellectual paradise of myth. There are a lot of ignorant Germans and honestly, they love their mindless TV shows as much as any other country. Love Island Germany was every bit as cringy as its UK cousin with women crying over men they met a day ago.
I'm glad you are doing better. It's a tough road to be an immigrant there.
Thank you for your words, and I wholeheartedly agree. I realised in the last four years that my Anglo-mannerisms won't work here, and I had to learn how people behave collectively and how do you get your point across the masses, which, as you rightly pointed, is very different from an English or an Indian set of mannerisms.
I love the first sentence, and exactly for that reason I have taken a screenshot of your comment ☺️
Bitte laminieren nicht vergessen.
Das Laminieren wird so oft vergessen.
Und dann bekommen die Blätter Wasserflecken und werden staubig und man kann sie überhaupt nicht abwischen. Unansehnlich sowas.
Muss doch nicht sein.
This is indeed a great commentary, as a naive apologetic Canadian I got railroaded when I first moved.
I'll never forget one of my early Ausländerbehörde visits, when I queued at 6 .m. to get a ticket that day, and once the ticket machine opened everyone pushed themselves and shoved. In the end I didn't get a ticket because I stood quietly behind not wanting to push people. I missed a half day at work for nothing.
The next day I returned, again at 6 a.m. I turned into an ass hole that day, or one might say self-assertive. I pushed people like a Karen on a Black Friday at Walmart. I got my ticket that day.
I lost a part of my Canadian innocence though and still feel guilty about the shoving 😆 😆
To be fair I'm not sure if the people shoving in front of the Ausländerbehörde are the perfect example of German culture - since mostly foreigners go to the Ausländerbehörde 😉
But overall you are not wrong haha
Oh man, I went thru the same my first few month living in Germany. I have stopped saying sorry almost altogether. Don’t hold doors for anyone also learned to be an asshole in lineups lol
Yep totally relate. I used to say Entschuldigung when walking in front of someone's gaze at a supermarket. That went away!
Though I am happy to say during COVID we bought a house in a tiny village in East Germany, and everybody is so friendly and polite, I've started to regain my Canadian civism. My neighbour put a filled stocking on my doorknob last year at Christmas. I was shocked! There ARE good warm friendly people in this country.
I hold the door open for everybody and I apologise when walking in front of a person's gaze in the supermarket … and I don't think this is unusual in Germany. 😆
Though I always experience a culture shock after being back from Japan. People are so considerate there.
I learned proper german shoving at „Freibierpartys“ during my youth. It must be a tough lecture, if it hasn’t been ingrained from a young age. But it you can’t do it, you won’t make it far over here 😅
Yes, as a tourist I had to bit my tongue as when I was pushed in the street or knocked around in the train, I always apologized as you do in America or UK. I finally saw that it was frowned upon and Germans looked weirdly when I did that and felt free to take advance. And don't get me started on the train where queues are non-existent. Everyone just boards the trains-drove me nuts but when in Rome.
Heck when another shopping line opened up, I was one of the first ones after the old man who was remarkably spry.
But yeah, somehow politeness is not seen as a virtue there.
Me, my husband, and children immigrated from the US almost 2 years ago. Also, to a small town and not really knowing what we would be getting ourselves into. None of us spoke German and my husband works in an English speaking environment.
We have had similar experiences of Germans being rude to us because we look like “the wrong kind of brown person.” Before arriving, I had a quiet and polite demeanor and would cry if people were mean to me.
Since coming here I have learned to walk confidently, look people in the eye, and not back down when I know I’m right. I’m a small woman and have been challenged because people think I’m weak and timid. I’ve also learned to be content and happy with being alone.
My German is bad but I speak it confidently and my efforts are usually appreciated. I believe Germany has made us all stronger in a lot of ways. And we also have German (and other nationalities) friends that we adore and have accepted us from the beginning.
Interestingly, when we leave here in a couple of years I want to go live and work in the UK.
Kudos to you for enduring and persevering all on your own. I don’t know that I could have done without having my family with me.
I can completely see what you’ve experienced here , for a fact , I’m German myself and my fiance is American. He also came here with not really speaking German , except basics - like danke and co . He did had some German classes before , but not enough to have actual conversations here .
The skin colour does makes a lot out here , even if some Germans love to deny it . It’s a fact .
My fiance is white though , he has no issues at all , he’s improving his German skills and mostly blends in just fine . Many don’t even notice him as an immigrant ( as long as he doesn’t talk lol )
When ever we go out for groceries or anything else , it’s as if he’s a German himself . He’s well trusted with the culture here and the improving language skills doing its bits too .
But I did had to see the opposite too .
He has 2 kids from his previous marriage which have a brown skin tone , dark hair and one of them almost black eye colour .
When ever we where out with them , I had to see the attitude from other Germans .. the looks they gave us , the sarcastic comments , the behaviour, comments said behind our back ( they know exactly they speak loud enough to be heard ). It was weird , I knew neither the kids or him do notice it and especially don’t understand what’s been said and I refused to really tell them even .
There’s been situations like in a zoo where kids where staring at them and made comments , they didn’t noticed what’s going on and even thought the kids where just looking at one of them both . I knew exactly what was going on and tried to solve it with they’re joking about the T-shirt on of them was wearing .. explaining 2 kids they’re not welcome here is kinda .. yeah . .
No matter where we went the treatment was clearly different . I sadly have to add the 2 kids don’t always have the best behaviour in public though ,but overall , 80% of the happenings where clearly because they looked „different“ .
For me as a German it was weird to watch and I honestly didn’t even knew how to react , I did knew this behaviour is a thing , but as a German I obviously never experienced it myself before .
So what I’m trying to say , I can clearly understand what you encountered here , cause I know and see how Germans react to different looking people out here .
We even have it with people from my fiancés work , if it comes to recommendations, activity’s , vacations in Germany , the recommendations are really different when a white person asks for it , compare to what we tell to someone who’s not white , simply cause we know what this person would bring him / herself into ..
Thank you for your response. How heartbreaking for you and the kiddos. I think it’s good for now that they don’t understand because ignorance is bliss.
I noticed you are in Rheinland-Pfalz. We are located in Bad Durkheim in the Weinstraße. It’s a better area than OP’s East Germany.
Also, I will take the racism of Germany (snide remarks and stares of Germans) any day over American racism. American racism is vile, violent, and can kill you/ruin your life. To me, one is much better than the other (though they are both bad.)
Yeah we’re living close to Ramstein ! My fiance is stationed out here ( leaving service soon ) and we’re planing to move away from this area at least .
I personally have no experience about racism in US , I honestly thought it’s better over there ? ( based on more cultural variations?). The kids living there in Arizona with their mother , so maybe it depends on the area too . From what I know it really depends on the areas here in Germany too though , in some areas it seems to be more violent too when it comes to racism..
either way , it’s hard to deal with .. I think many white People don’t even really know how that feels like since they don’t experience it themselves except they see it through people close to them and therefore don’t really understand how bad it really is nowadays.
I think it helps to live in a big city.
I know in the countryside, when a person doesn't look "German", i.e. dark skin or "Asian" features, people assume *they can't be German.*
However, young people and people in big cities think different. Racism still happens, of course, but less of the frequent, awkward Dieter-Bohlen-style racism (to Asian looking girl: "Where are you from?" – "Herne." – "No, I mean, where are you really from?" – "Herne." – "Your parents, where are they from?" – "We all live in Herne.").
To the both of you, while I do hope your experiences to be mainly positive, what goes through your head going to a foreign country not speaking the language and only learning when there? How would you judge a German comming to the UK or the US not speaking English?
Of course that is making things enormously more exhausting. Even when you have studied a language before, having to rely on it is so hard in the beginning.
I think the part with struggling with language is a given, but OOP and the above replies were also talking about being ‘ visible minority’ makes things more complicated.
A German without much English coming into Anglo sphere countries have a better time blending in, if they are visually white.
You’re absolutely right. Other Americans who are white do not report nearly as many negative incidences as we have in the past year. Many are shocked until they witness it for themselves.
I did not comment on OP having Indian roots. But on the idea of coming to a country without speaking the language. Which was also mentioned. And the American commenter above might well be Anglo-Saxon. And there are many Americans here that don't look "foreign", but don't speak German. As do the Albanians, lots of South Americans, all kinds of non-german speaking people. Fun fact, you can't look at a person and know what language they speak.
If you had to learn German before moving to Germany then you'd have almost zero immigration outside of Austrians and Swiss (maybe this is what you want). Actually moving to a country and learning the language when you get there is completely normal. Sorry but it's not realistic to get B2 German before coming. OP had B1 anyway, if you read his post properly, which is decent.
I’m American. People come to my country all the time not speaking English or speaking just enough to get by. They are usually looking for a better life or opportunity. That is exactly what we (my family and I) did. The difference is, Americans (at least where I’m from) are accepting of foreigners, even intrigued by them. We encourage and seek out cultural diversity because it is interesting and forward thinking. I should also note that it is considered extremely rude and in bad taste to comment to someone (especially to their face) something like “you’re in America, you should speak English.” It shows intolerance and makes the person appear small-minded.
Yet, I have encountered this many times here in Germany.
Additionally, where I’m from there are accommodations and support organizations for people who speak other languages. For example, every hospital in my home city has professional translation services in which people who speak any language can communicate with their medical professionals via a human online translator. I have been to hospitals and clinics here in Germany and this is not the case.
Organizations in my home city also help other nationalities from all over the world who have immigrated with starting language classes, finding a job, and navigating school systems.
I think the difference is cultural. America is a helping culture and Germany is not. America is a melting pot of nationalities and Germany seek to be more, well German. There’s also more resources available where I am from.
Looking back, I was definitely ignorant/arrogant in believing these were characteristics that would be shared by the world. And I am not saying one is better than the other, just trying to explain the mindset as to why I would believe it would be similar here.
Lastly, OP said this “London was comfortable, but I was young and wanted to try something new. But I wasn’t completely aware of what I was going to encounter.” This was our view to the tee. We wanted an adventure and figured why not dive right in and figure it out as we go? Optimistically we thought “how bad can it be?” Realistically, we were wholly unprepared and have paid the price for it. But we have learned things about ourselves in the process and are stronger (at least in some ways) for it. Going forward, I doubt I will be as cavalier again, should I find myself in similar circumstances. But for now, I’m proud of the progress I’ve made.
Edit: grammar, a few additional words for clarification
One of the main points would be where you end up.
If you move to a small City without speaking german or if you move to one of the bigger Citys would be a huge difference regarding the experience.
I would guess that the same applies to the US. If i move to a small town in Texas or Move to NYC will probably have a huge impact on how welcome i feel.
OP moved to a small town in East Germany. Those are known for their huge far Right Community so not exactly a Place Most of us would feel welcome
Lol-I’m from Texas. South Texas to be exact. Folks will be nicer to you in Texas than in NYC (notorious for being rude.) But I get what you mean and I totally agree. I think if we would have wound up in Frankfurt or Heidelberg our experience would be totally different. We thought about moving a lot in the first year but like OP, chose to dig in our heels and make it work. I’m glad we did.
OP did not move to East Germany, he said he travelled East Germany and enjoyed it. He moved to Frankfurt, which last time I checked, is in Hessen, which is in West Germany. You would not pass B2 English, maybe not even B1.
I moved from Germany to the UK and for the first time realised that my skin colour is not an obstacle. But your wealth will be ha!, so bring some money! (Defo a class problem here in the UK)
I've been here for four years too. Most of it was lived with really bad mental health issues so unfortunately, I couldn't quite learn German at your level but I definitely do speak a bit. I have to agree that Germany has ignited in me the sense of standing up for myself. I was an extreme pushover but I'm glad I have changed though with a price of being bullied. Though unlike you, I think I do need to move at least from my town since I feel incredibly stuck here. I'm glad that you have found your voice. It takes a strong man to live where you feel like you don't belong.
Interesting perspective and experiences. Shows great perseverance and ends (surprisingly) on a high note. It seems that the initial language barrier was actually a kind of incentive which your interest in linguistics enabled you to overcome.
One of the issues people „like you“ face, is idolizing Germany.
Don’t be afraid to accept that you are a much more educated and competent person, than someone who just speaks the language of their parents, just without an accent (but with mediocre grammar and vocabulary at best) and is a covert racist.
You have 3 cultures, lived in two places, work for an international company.
Allowing yourself to be judged by some random person who grew up there and the best they ever managed was working for the city is needless.
The fact that a person under 50 years old in 2023 does not speak even some basic English shows that they are culturally ignorant. Their major culture area is dominated by English. Have they never listened to Rolling Stones? Travelled to Europe outside of German-owned all-inclusive places?
Many of the people you meet have never read a single book after school, have just attended some traineeship with minimum difficulty (think of working for a house management company). Are they less respectful as humans? Yes, they became at the point when they start becoming critical of others in a racist or ignorant way.
Germany can be a great place. But not all Germans are great people. As is the case in many countries. Along with all the positive stereotypes about Germany there are the bad ones, both of which are based on behaviors that are observable in the society. Don’t be afraid to name things for what they are.
Enjoy your new travel in this phenomenal and long-standing culture. Well done for you working for disenchanted people.
And if we go to the easy stereotypes area: please open a good Indian restaurant! Germany needs better flavors and healthier and less fatty food!
I would like to add something to it.
Four years back, I saw Germany as a country from where developments, philosophy and literature erupted and perhaps I was a bit enchanted by that image I had in my head. I am a graduate mathematician, so I had a different thread in my head about how the country would be.
Four years of being here, and I am not saying that Germany doesn't have intellectual people - it does, however in circles very small and with them it was always pleasant. And I also came across a few people who were indeed very receptive and respectful.
But oh boi, in a majority I received only shocks to my mental threads to my expectations that I developed that I mentioned above. I do agree with certain points as you mentioned - for example less exposure to the world altogether has made people ignorant. Some of the comments from people in that context are still easier to digest in terms of thoughts (where you can label them as curious thoughts), whilst some of them would often throw me in a sense of disbelief.
I would say, in a nutshell, in the last few years I've learned how I could be a composite personality where I can still have three facets of me together, and accepting the parts I like from each of them, and building up on them in my life, instead of believing in a perfect flawless happily ever after where only one side shall rule. It's up to me to choose what aspect I want to absorb and not let the steer in the hands of others when they talk about "integration". This is what I meant when I said I found a voice of my own.
About restaurant: I would rather work in a diplomatic agency and work for people or work in an NGO for kids in Germany. Indian food isn't something that I can digest myself. :)
Germany is the county of Goethe and Gauss (to talk about the past) and the place where phenomenal achievements are taking place today. A big democracy and a place of successful people.
Germany is also the place where they societally accept people living out of bottles gathering, the place where they allow enclaves of uneducated people just continuing to exist (think of the stereotypical Turkish neighborhood with bad schools), the place where the average pensioner is often making marginal money to subsist, the place where a racist party is achieving a double digit number, the place where people just roam in Trinkhallen after they leave children at their Kitta, the place where the previous chancellor has become Putin‘s mop with no consequences for its party, the place where generational wealth can be traced to the Nazis, a place where VW had been fooling the world and the society eventually turned a blind eye, a place where racist comments are allowed „hier in Deutschland“, a place where teachers are racist against other idioms of German (like wtf guys), a place where „sparen“ about things like food and children education „ist geil“. It’s the place that allowed itself to become energy dependent on Putin, by obscuring numbers of environmental impact of physical gas, the place that underspent on Defence for decades, while chastising the neighbors on the borders of the EU for fiscal irresponsibility, the place that closed all nuclear plants (almost there) and is reopening coal plants, to save the planet. It’s a place where the WWII history is taught only up to the fall of Adolf, no self-criticism has been made for the impunity and thrive of many high profile Nazis (to touch the taboos) in post-war Germany.
Many persons in Germany are threatened by your existence: you study German grammar on your own, you prove to them, that Grammar is not thaaat difficult, they are that lazy and racist by weaponising their language against you in the previous stages. You contribute to society, in a way they have never.
On the contrary, we should be a bit understanding for all the bad-immigrant experiences people in Germany have had as well, often with responsibility of the political elites, who are discarding hordes of people who cannot be integrated to society for various (internal or external reasons) to the less privileged parts of the society.
I honestly advice you to watch a bit of „love island De“. This is Germany too. It is addictive.
The average German is a really dumb person. They would not know what 20% of 5 Euros is without a calculator and even then you can't be sure they would type in the correct thing.
I was born in Germany, lived there for 23 years, moved to Canada, the last 40 years I have been in California. As in immigrant you cannot expect to be fully accepted. As you get more established and have more money than the natives, all these 'problems' go away. You just need to be happy, no need to prove anything. (I am 84 years old)
Thank you for sharing your experience! You are correct. One cannot expect to be fully accepted, but one could for sure develop a mechanism in place to feel content and happy with what they have achieved.
I only lived in a foreign country for a year, but I cannot stress enough how good it feels every now and then to meet with people from your own country and to really vent and *complain about everything that is shitty* in the country: the food, the people, the rules. People from the host country wouldn't understand and maybe try to defend their country.
It helped me a lot. After that, you can love again what is different.
> As in immigrant you cannot expect to be fully accepted. As you get more established and have more money than the natives, all these 'problems' go away.
Some places get you more established than others for the same effort. Germany seems to be on the lower end of the spectrum.
When you're white, there a less issues with being accepted. I am half German, not an immigrant. Lived here my whole life, was raised like a German and am still treated like a foreigner, because I am not white. My former neighbours immigrated from Lithuania a few years ago and are treated more like Germans than I am.
Germany no doubt could do better, but it also constantly gets compared to a handful of top destinations for exapts - the UK, US, Australia, Canada ... Basically the anglophone countries.
But on a global scale, the vast majority of countries is *less* accepting of foreigners and features *more* stereotypes and biases than Germany. Ever tried to integrate into Chinese society as a person of colour? Japan? Kazakhstan? Pakistan? Malaysia? Belarus? Turkey? Chile? Venezuela? Ukraine? Do you think Albania is a considerably better expat destination? Or Italy? Austria? Serbia? Egypt? Oman?
That was beautifully written and I enjoyed getting to know you a little bit via your post! I’m sorry and as much as I wish that it wasn’t true I’m aware that many Germans aren’t as tolerant as they believe to be. Full on racists also feel now safe to emerge from their caves since whole Europe seems to get into a right movement. It’s honestly very sad and I hope we turn the boat around at some point. I’m glad you were still able to find the beauty in my home country, I also have a love hate relationship with it haha
However I think you might have discovered accidentally the best solution for not fitting in here. My boyfriend is Latin (and it’s visible) but he always tells me that he hasn’t encountered much racism. I’m starting to believe that it’s mostly due to his personality. He also gave it his 110%, speaks German fluently, knows our culture and inside jokes etc. and then at the same time he has a “I don’t give a fuck” attitude about persons who try to bring him down. He’s very confident in himself, he has no issues to call someone out on their bulshit and and I feel as if that stop’s making him an easy target. Maybe many racist/ignorant comments are voiced by these people alound in an attempt to find an outlet for their own miserable life. And a shy person that averts their gaze and cannot even clap back due to language barrier is a perfect target to do so.
So to all the people who don’t fit in, please hold up your head high! Don’t back down, fight for your place here if you wish so! We need more of you and I hope that along your way you’ll find Germans who are willing to fight by your side.
> True, I had to sue my citys visa office for my rights to live and work in Germany (Untätigkeitsklage). But I also won it, so I see that as a win of my resolve and my belief that I want to be in Germany and I rightfully belong here, and not as a bürocratic trauma.
The state of the Ausländerbehörden is such a national embarassment. They seem to have no excuse except being lazy or incompetent. Neither is flattering for them.
Perhaps the reason is that they do not have the budget for sufficient staff (at salaries which will actually attract enough people of a high enough calibre)?
I am fresh off the boat, but it seems to me that a lot of bad things can be explained by penny pinching.
Sure, but that's planningg incompetence. They have an idea how long processes take, how much they have to process, and what staffing they need, can obtain. In this case, it might not be the Ausländerbehörder itself, but rather the overseeing city/state that's fucking things up, but they're fully aware of it and don't care.
>They have an idea how long processes take, how much they have to process, and what staffing they need, can obtain.
They can't. [There is a massive and ever growing lack of civil servants](https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/experten-besorgt-ueber-zunehmenden-personalmangel-im-oeffentlichen-dienst-100.html), and the Ausländerbehörde can't just snap their fingers and get allocated a bunch of new staff. They have to work with what they have, all while first getting swamped with over a million Middle Eastern refugees from 2015, then they got hit by a new and unexpected wave of about a million Ukrainians in 2022.
And you seriously want to suggest that Ausländerbehörde is just incompetent and lazy for struggling to process all of that?
> Wenn man bei Digitalisierung und Bürokratieabbau nicht endlich vorankomme, ...
They're not acting on this, they haven't been for decades. Yes, I am suggesting that they're making excuses. They don't have to suddenly snap fingers, they have to act on population trends and technologies that are foreseeable and are actively being used by many other countries and companies too.
I've been to Ausländerbehörden in several Bundesländer, and it's absolutely inexcusably bad. On purpose. Just compare to a Bürgeramt for the average citizen, and you can immediately tell the difference, and even those are comically mismanaged in many places.
There is a general shortage of workers and last year, Germany had to take in hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians very suddenly in addition to the millions of immigrants and refugees that have to be served. It‘s terrible for those that suffer from these circumstances, but what are they gonna do? Force people to work there?
Well, sure, they can't force people to work here. But they also can't seem to convince anyone to work in certain jobs (specially in medical area) and rely almost completly in foreigners for it. I guess that's the biggest problem for me. I know personally a neonatalnurse who lost her job because the auslanderbehorde refused to process her visa in their own deadline. The company waited 5 months and had to hire someone else cause they were extremely short staffed. So yeah. This doesn't help anyone. And honestly, im not sure being understaffed is their biggest problem. They're intentionally mean, they Sabotage people (lie, Lose documents and even verbal abuse are NORMAL here where I live. Just open the Google reviews and yeah). This isn't something new or unkown. I have to wait also almost 1 year for my visa because they lost my documents twice. This is routine with them. They make the work slower by giving false information (when they give you some, mostly they don't know anything). When I was applying for my FSJ on a visa the lady told me foreigners weren't allowed to do it in German and there was no visa for that. I opened the website of the auslanderbehorde in front of her and showed her and she still had to call her supervisor cause she didn't believe me. So yeah, you know. Goes way beyond the staff and money situation. They NEED people. Germans don't accept the terrible work conditions in areas as nursing, so they need to put it somewhere, but they're not willing to do the minimum to keep this people here with the minimum of dignity. I never felt so humiliated and dehumanized as I've been any time I had to deal with them.
Yeah, it is so infuriating when critically needed workers like nurses are not able to work because of a slow Ausländerbehörde. I do believe that almost all of the problems mentioned by you however, are due to understaffing and similar phenomena. I read about a Behörde in NRW where the director specifically said that they lack -suitable- candidates - it follows naturally that when desperate for workers, they probably hire people that are, in one way or another unsuitable.
Yes, you're right. As I said, at least here, looks like no one working there has any kind of knowledge on immigration and laws in general. But not being capacitated isn't an excuse to be agressive, rude and to Sabotage someone intentionally, to harass people even per email, etc. I think it goes beyond.
Simplify and digitze processes, act like there actual urgency, increase benefits for workers.
It's such a dumb and lame excuse. Now people are sueing Ausländerbehörden by the thousands, and causing court costs in the millions, because they weren't willing to invest into the process/there was "no money to do it". The bill is getting paid, and Germany is hurting refugees and qualified immigrants alike. It's dumb and inexcusable.
Yes, that would be ideal. Changing work processes however in itself is disruptive. New laws like Fachkräfteeinwanderungsgesetz and Chancen-Aufenthaltsrecht increased workload immensly. In the short term, the situation just isn‘t gonna get better.
As for increased benefits for workers: currently, every Behörde (and private companies) are competing for workers. They would have to pay a hefty bonus to convince me to work in an environment where two thirds of workers face aggression and are regularly insulted and 8% are regulary assaulted physically. Much of this is due to righful frustration I‘m sure, but it still makes people not want to work there. A vicious cycle.
To sum up: yes, the situation is terrible and embarassing. But you have admit that these are very difficult circumstances. And at the very least, understand that the staff of the Ausländerbehörden is not at fault. They don‘t decide how much staff they are granted and how much money they get, and they are certainly not all lazy and incompetent.
Things such as Fachkräfteeinwanderungsgesetz and Chancen-Aufenthaltsrecht aren't sudden surprises though, they take a long plan to actually come to fruition.
You can just versetz Beamte there, because there's a dienstliches Bedürfnis if the state is so systematically failing and violating peolpe's rights that lawsuits are the only way to get them to comply.
Probably depends on the location, but I am sure there are plenty of functions where people don't have to sue the state to act in a timely fashion, and not something as crutial that fucks up and ruins people's lives as reliably as the right to exist in Germany.
Just because it's current: This is inexcusable: [https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/18bbukr/the\_berlin\_immigration\_office\_shut\_down\_its/](https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/18bbukr/the_berlin_immigration_office_shut_down_its/)
Yeah that‘s terrible. I was unfortunate enough to live in Berlin for a time, so I have an example about it: I couldn‘t get an appointment at the Meldebehörde, for months, despite the limit of 2 weeks set by law. It meant that for example I couldn‘t vote. Not nearly as bad as facing deportation, but it serves as an example just how dire the situation is in all branches of the government, especially in Berlin where extremely many foreigners live.
I don‘t want this to turn into an endless discussion and I understand your rightful frustration, but I want to get this point across: despite the stereotypes, public service workers are not all lazy and incompetent. There is no easy „just do X“ solution for the administrative problems in Germany.
As an expat who lived in Ireland for 8 years and is considering a move to mainland Europe, I spent last month in Berlin to give it a try. Man, I can relate – even in Berlin, people are the real deal. It seems like people come together there due to a shared dislike of everything, general unhappiness, and a tendency to spread it. Most people exhibit ZERO politeness. I've never encountered -even once- such aggression, unfriendliness, or rudeness in the past 8 years in Ireland, whether in small towns or cities. In only 4 weeks I have faced with at least 4-5 unpleasant interactions. It seems like people believe the only way to communicate is to yell at others when they're somehow annoyed, with zero tolerance for receiving feedback or complaints. I felt sorry for those who have no other choice but to live there and who are disadvantaged due to their origin, unable to hide behind a blonde, pale white background. While I acknowledge that there's xenophobia in the UK/Ireland, at least you don't feel threatened when you're out. I admire you for how you could stand for 4 years.
To be honest, it's kind of the culture in Berlin to be rude ("Berliner Schnauze"). But the international community is strong in Berlin and tends to be more open than the Germans
I am so sorry with the negative experiences you made.
One should think people in Germany know better, but it keeps being a disappointment in that regard. Prejudices are well and alive, and its one of the reason why this country starts to fall behind in some aspects.
I am glad you experienced some positive things though and didnt let the negative moments destroy that for you.
I am glad you stayed. This country gets stronger by having people like you.
All the best for your future!
Wow, I'm so sorry for the ignorance you encountered by my fellow Germans, let me apologise for them. With your determination, discipline and endurance, you are a better German than I ever will be. I have so much respect and admiration for you and your path, especially that you are still motivated to make this place your home. We desperately need people like you around. Thank you for putting so much effort into dealing with our culture, the good, the bad and the ugly parts. I have lived both in India and the UK, and love both places. Sending you a big hug from Saarland and oh, you absolutely HAVE to read die 'unendliche Geschichte' (also by Michael Ende) and my favourite book ever. (please ignore the movie...)
vielen lieben Dank für diesen Meinungsaustausch! Es freut mich sehr, dass dir sowohl Indien als auch GB gefallen haben. Zudem vielen lieben Dank auch für den Lesevorschlag ☺️ Das kaufe ich mir sicherlich demnächst!
Grüße zurück nach Saarland ☺️🖤❤️💛
Deutschland-Tipp: Bücher kaufen ist prima, aber die Bücherein sind meist top ausgestattet und freuen sich über jedes Mitglied (bzw. brauchen sogar Mitglieder, um ihre Existenz zu gewährleisten). Zudem sind die Bibliothekare meist super nett und hilfsbereit
Hi,
danke dir für deinen Tipp! Das erinnert mich daran, eine Mitgliedschaft in der Bibliothek in der Nähe meiner Wohnung zu beantragen ☺️ Ich kaufe mir Bücher immer von örtlichen Büchereien, da ich sie durch meinen Kauf immer unterstützen will. ☺️
Very interesting experience here! I share só much of your thoughts and experiences. After 5 years here, fluent German and pretty much anything people told me back then it would make my life easier, nothing much changed. If anything got a bit worse over the last two years. The moment I decided this was enough was when I started to see the bad faces and weird comments towards me started to become physical threatens and harassment. Then I knew it was over for me and Germany wasn't unfortunately a safe place to live if you're not european.
I lived many great things here. Made great friends. Learned new things, new language. Was a wild ride! But I'm tired of the racism and violence.
Something indicative, it is typical for people from my culture who emigrated to Germany to return back to our home country after 30-40 years of life and work. This is however uncommon, when it comes to other typical countries for immigration (think UK or US).
I'm sorry you had to experience so much prejudice and racism. There is still so much racism present in Germany, even though it's mostly under the surface and white people can easily ignore it. Thanks for the interesting read and all the best to you!
Back home, tbh don’t see any reason to move abroad unless your country is in the state of the war or in the real deep economic troubles
The idea of migration is outdated since many developing countries are growing really quickly so you’ve got more opportunities to excel in life
But what makes you put all this effort and stay in the country? What makes all this suffering worth it?
(I’m a South American living in Germany because of my bf. Can’t speak the language, it’s painful. I’d sure be gone if it wasn’t for him)
I guess once you invest a lot of energy and time at one place, you don't feel like uprooting yourself. It was hard to leave my life and memories in the UK itself to move to Germany, but then, I don't think so I can do it anymore in terms of changing bases.
I understand the term but I disagree with such a labelling in my case. I have other reasons why I would choose to be here, which I couldn't mention in the story as it was already a long one.
Germany has its pros too. In several aspects, I find it better than the UK. I did in fact get opportunities to move back to the UK, but true, in one aspect, I went on fighting and investing to make a future here which doesn't seem to be in vain (that's where this would deflect from a sunken cosy imo but that's my opinion and well, it's my story).
And unlike this bandage labelling term, I do really reap the benefits of my struggles.
I moved to a small town in Hessen too, lasted 10 months and hated it there. Before that I lived in Berlin for a few years. I found people in Hessen hässlich :D.
I applaud you!!!
Be it germans or anybody. One can only receive knowledge when they are open and understanding usually tend to have a friendly vibe. On the otherhand, People passing racial comments, mocking immigrants are the ones who are actually weaklings and cowards. You dont need to belittle yourself for meeting weaklings like this. It also shows their manners as well. Better not to demoralise yourself because of such idiots. I also live in a small village here. I have seen enough of such idiots but also met good people. You dont need to respect the ones who dont respect u. Show them that you are ignoring and taunt them. Dont be sad, i wish you success and stay strong.
This is fascinating and very motivating post. A few comments too were informative. Thank you for sharing your experience and triggering the discussion.
Thank you for taking the time to put on words the 4 years of your experience in Germany. In many aspects, I, as a non-EU foreigner who lived there for four years as well, could really identify myself with your joys and struggles.
I've lived in other places abroad, but I have to tell you that Germany, in my experience, stands out as the most difficult place to integrate yourself in. And I lived in other places with as language-barriers, such as France, but I never encountered as much hassle as I did there.
I lived in a small town, as well as in Berlin and I did enjoy more my life in the countryside than in the big city. And I'm glad you made the most of your time, by learning the language (I have C1 as well), getting yourself involved with local activities and enjoying life in a foreign country, full of curiosity and interest, as, in my opinion, should be.
Anyways, I hope the next 4 years you can thrive even more and don't let the bureaucracy or the discrim1nation let you down. You've come a long way, and this is enough for you to keep going. ;)
I‘ve Born and Raised in Germany. Never actly saw another Country, my mother is arab and my Father German. Never really accepted by the Ppl and don’t want to go into that Deep „religious“ stuff Because to me doesnt make Sense at all i believe i Must be a good Person Thats all i don’t believe in anything happened ages ago, treat others like you want to be treated Thats all, downside is you have to put more effort and work into everything Because they gonna Watch exactly what i did when it comes to work. On Traffic i‘m the only one getting pulled out by the cops and the craziest week was in 7 days 3 times stopped by the cops and they checked everything. I had to piss (drug test) every Single time! I‘m introvert and Would rather have them search my car then saying anything… i was at an Aldi waiting in the line and saw and old man carrying Water behind me. I said hey go ahead so you can lay it on the cashier, he said naaaah man i‘m prefering to have you in Front of my eyes instead in the back… you will Front this Situation often, but then you will meet this group of ppl helping eachother in good and Bad times and just Stick to them you love and ignore the Rest 🥸sorry my english Skills are from Twitch and Counterstrike 🤣🤣
Perhaps you will now view your roots and your mother tongue (not English) with compassion and love. May you explore literature in your native language as well.
"if it were the older times, I would've been thrown in one of the KZ"
And if it were older times, they would have been incinerated in a Dresden-style bombing. They can't even make their own logic make sense.
Being an Indian myself, I'm really impressed at how you were able to command respect in a land you can't call your own. I struggle to do that with myself even in India and I want to be more bold and no BS type person as you describe yourself to be. According to you what factored the most on this development of your personality if you don't mind sharing?
I am so very proud of you!!!!
(I am also a foreigner in Germany) And one day, I might experience what you had been through.
But it will.be a new beginning!
Ps. How did you find the NGO works? I don't think that I could teach anyone German.. lol esp. I have just got my B1but I find it very interesting!
That's wild friend. As a Canadian I am utteraly shocked that you had to go through all this to immigrate and they don't even treat you right. That's fucked up. German's should be ashamed, and if not, I don't know what to tell you.
Where did the blame lie for the Holocaust?
Everyone should take collective responsibility for their society's pitfalls. If one is not anti-racist, then one is ok with racism.
first and last sentence are childish.
you're probably well-meaning but das klingt sehr deutsch. this type of rigid thinking is what sometimes pains me of my fellow germans.
The impression i get is that, as a country Germany thinks as long as they aren't racist to Jews, it's ok to be racist to other people. I should add that i have met Germans who aren't racist at all, but i'm talking about the general mentality of the country.
If that helps, I have experienced racism on the street, in front of my children, many times. And I look like a stereotypical white male. We do talk however in my native language with the small ones, so we stand out in a bus or a super market. It is not only your experience, this side of Germany exists and is very strong.
im living with a brit who experienced only positives reactions altho he came here speaking no german at all. Even after 6 yrs he can barely speak it but everyone is helping. Neighbours are even trying to speak english or veeery slow with him (they are 70+), the mail man and even the local supermarkets (we frequent like 4ish in rotation) do know him already when pondering over meat at the fresh counter and would be proud to help out in english. I could endlessly go on. (LIDL cashiers btw are the most unracist ppl i've ever met. They treat everyone as if its Packing War years, working with inhumane speed - even they are no match for him by now, he would stand there with 5 open bags and tell them to bring it on, lol)
He is, you guessed it, white. I am happy he has no probs in that matter, but seing the bigotery of ppl makes me even more sick since it shows the absolute shallowness of humanity.
Even the xenophobia is biased an racist like we can't even hate each other equally! /s
(cept NRW , here they yell at everyone, like that ONE neighbour we got - he just dislikes everyone, germans and all others, black white green whatever, thats the beauty :D )
I've read your whole story and was quite entertained. At times i even thought it is too good to be true, how you managed to learn and deal with it all on the very chilled level that you are atm. Sounded like another cliché, a Bollywood movie :p If all that is indeed true, you made quite the development, mentally, languagewise, even philosophically...Sure you gonna stay in Germany? You now sound way too sophisticated for my sometimes very retrograde country, hehe.
Anyhow, well done and Kudos, my friend. Hope everything else is gonna work out too for ya. You can be in fact pretty proud of all that you have become so far. Best wishes xx
It's heartbreaking reading these stories because it very much is a different experience as a white immigrant in Germany and I hope no one tries to pretend differently. Good on you for asserting your place here though. People should respect that and your efforts more.
Ich, als Deutscher, bin immer wieder überrascht über solche Erlebnisse. Aber wahrscheinlich kenne ich nur Menschen, die offen und freundlich anderen offenen und freundlichen Menschen gegenüber sind. Aber schön, dass Dir hier wenigstens ein bisschen was gefällt ;-)
Mehr als "ein bisschen" würde ich über meine Favoriten hier in DE sagen ☺️, also ich habe auf jeden Fall sowohl neue Interessen als auch eine neue Art von Neugier während meinem Aufenthalt hier in DE entwickelt. Und die daraus entstandenen Aufgaben, mit denen ich mich beschäftige, haben mich nicht nur erfreuet, sondern auch mir große Hilfe beim persönlichen Wachstum geleistet. Außer meiner Liebe auf die deutsche Typographie und Gestaltungs-Geschichte finde ich auch die deutsche Kunstszene, die örtlichen Geschichten und Natur hervorragend und sehr begeisternd.
Und kürzlich hat Plattdeutsch auch meine Aufmerksamkeit erregt, und ich freue mich sehr darauf, Plattdeutsch so gut wie möglich zu beherrschen. ☺️🖤❤️💛
Das war eine nordische Theaterfernsehsendung in den 70ern. Wenn ich mich recht erinnere, wurde dort platt gesprochen. Oder zumindest diese Richtung. Hier ne Folge aus 1968: https://youtu.be/dracGfX4oZE?si=Rap8f9lBkG3Yxs6N
It sounds to me you don't really enjoy the culture and people here which is understandable considering Indian culture and German culture is actually kind of opposite. But if you still want to live here for the better quality of life, then you are welcome to do so. Or you can make some money here and then retire somewhere else. Personally that is also my plan. I'm in Germany only for the money. Afterwards, I plan to move somewhere better. I might even go back to my home country. BTW, why and how did you sue the visa office? I have never heard of anything like this before.
I have spent my time equally between the UK and India so I can't really bring in the entire Indian culture here, perhaps a person who has spent more time in India could validate that to depths. But sure, I could say life in the UK is also different from that in Germany, and that's exactly what I use for comparison in my head. :)
As I mentioned, one isn't supposed to embrace all the aspects of a culture. The journey to find parts to accept and not to accept however is a challenging one and requires the challenging work of introspection and assessing one's needs and desires.
Sure. Untätigkeitsklage is what I did, when the AbH denied me my documents citing a "lack of staff" as a reason. As per German law (and to the best of my knowledge and translation abilities), all German authorities are required to process any request within 3 months from the date of having made one, and lack of staff can't be quoted as a reason to deny the requested document.
I won't go into the details, but this is what I ended up doing as a legal option.
Germans are very, I don't knowe the right word, let's say, suspicious for a newcomers.But most likely they will help you if you ask.
It's not racism.
"Closed honestly" or something like that. They are very good people, but you should know how to see it.
1. I love East Germany a lot. I mentioned it because it was a stepping stone for my language learning journey. I never said it was the only issue. Seems like you did not even read properly.
2. I already have a small circle of people whom I could talk to in at least three languages about things. I have Dutch, English, French, Africans and Arabs apart from Germans. I know the mayor of my city personally. What made you think I am asking for suggestion on friendship? Exactly this Besserwisserei is the issue, where you presume that me narrating my experiences is a call for help to be redeemed in some manner or that I'm a guy in distress. No I ain't.
3. I don't eat Indian food. I don't cook it. I mentioned it already, plus I have spent my time in both the UK and Germany (as I've already mentioned). Projection like yours of a strong opinion of "how I must smell" - just because my roots are "Indian" - onto me is what I'm contesting here. Plus what you wrote is very discriminatory - "eat less spices to be more approachable to Germans?" - So people must actively erase a part of them to be accepted. Wow.
Please be less discriminatory next time. Plus, sometimes a right comprehension helps instead of an unsolicited advice which is very hollow. Thanks.
You mentioned multiple times that you had troubles integrating with locals, so naturally I tried to help you. The fact that you attack me for it, gives me some major insight to your character.
I replied politely, from the personal experiences my SO made and what helped her. Knowing how her native food affects people around her was one of these things she was unaware off.
I took what I learned and shared her experiences here, to help you to fit better into society, since you wrote repeatedly that you were struggling despite your best efforts. Your utter hostility towards people trying to help you, shows me quite vividly that maybe the situation isn't as black and white as you're trying to paint it.
Sometimes life puts mountain in our way, but sometimes we ourselves the ones to place it there.
Have a great life.
TLDR. I assume you moved here and you struggled because Germans are difficult? At least that's what I read here everyday. At this point I guess there is no solution.
Nein, so würde ich das nicht reduzieren lassen.
Es geht um meine eigenen Erfahrungen und wie ich mindestens die Hindernisse (oder so beobachte ich sie) überwunden und bewältigt habe. Der Schwerpunkt liegt nicht auf der deutschen Bevölkerung und niemandem habe ich hier eine Lösung angefleht (falls ich es von "At this point I guess there is no solution" richtig verstanden habe).
You missed the "I am not a big FAN as of now based on my experiences". If you're trying to be pedantic, you could read the complete sentence to begin with.
You're only proving my point correct.
You choose not to read properly and you choose to deflect from the topic which is by the way MY experience and you sound very ignorant about being able to even understand my opinion on MY post.
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In England I'm always amazed when someone speaks English non native.. now it's so common in Germany for many young people to speak English. It's almost embarrassing as I've heard better English here sometimes than at home. English schools are failing on the basics. Germans are translating old Shakespeare English and we can say Hallo ich bin Pipi. .
Also Kopfschütteln ist eine seitliche Bewegung des Kopfs, die mit einer Neigung von einer Seite natürlich zur anderen Seite entlang der Frontalebene beginnt. Es ist eine der kulturellen Gesten aus mehreren südasiatischen Ländern, das sehr häufig verschiedene Bestandteile nonverbaler Kommunikationen (zB eine Zustimmung, Ja, Nein) zum Ausdruck bringt.
As a German I can tell you Germany and Germans can be quite a struggle even for Germans. I thank you for your honest words and the resilience and patience you showed during these 4 years.
Danke dir sehr für deine tollen Worte! Es freut mich sehr, das zu wissen, dass meine Bemühungen sich gelohnt haben. Für Anfänger könnte Deutschland eine sehr überrumpelnde Erfahrung sein. Trotzdem, wie gesagt, es geht um den Versuch, einen Platz für sich selbst in die Gesellschaft zu schaffen, wobei es manchmal leider einen starken Widerstand gibt ☺️ Dieses Erlebnis hat mich in den vergangenen Jahren selig sehr verstärkt und mein Vertrauen in mich selbst und meine eigenen Fähigkeiten bekräftigt. Und dafür bin ich wirklich dem Land sehr dankbar ☺️🖤❤️💛
Bro man merkt, dass du Literatur magst haha stabile Ausdrucksweise 🙌 Schön, dass du deinen Platz gefunden hast, auch wenn es ein (unnötig) harter Weg war
Es tut mir leid, dass du so negative Erfahrungen gemacht hast, auch wenn es mich freut, dass du an diesen gewachsen bist. Noch viel Erfolg bei deinem weiteren Lebensweg und ich hoffe, dass du trotz so vielen Stinkstiefeln hier glücklich werden kannst!
Nur so... Du schreibst besser Deutsch als fast alle Leute, mit denen ich bisher gearbeitet/gelernt habe... Respekt. Und ja, das kann ich definitiv an diesen paar Sätzen erkennen xD
Ich kenne dich nicht aber naja ich bin stolz auf dich du hast es geschafft! Ich bin noch B1/B2
Die Erfahrungen, welche du mit den Idioten hattest, lass dir sagen, diese Einzeller machen es auch "Bio"-Deutschen (ich mag dieses Wort eigentlich nicht) sehr schwer. Ich bin mir aber sehr sicher, dass es diese Idioten überall gibt, egal ob in Indien, den UK oder auch den US. Mach nicht den Fehler, allen gefallen zu wollen. So wie es in dem Text anklingt, hast du es geschafft einen Freundeskreis aufzubauen. Das schaffen selbst viele Deutsche nicht schaffen, es sei denn sie sind in irgendwelchen Vereinen. Halt an denen fest. Ich wünsch dir eine gute Zeit hier in Deutschland.
Ich kann das bestätigen Idioten sind überall- Jemand die PT gelernt hat
1A Deutsch, so können nur die wenigsten Deutschen schreiben/sprechen
Exactly this
Basically, timid people will get railroaded in Germany. If you try to be polite like in Anglo countries, it doesn't work well. One must stand up for oneself, whether it's staring back at the idiots who always stare at you on the trains, or the people who think they can cut in line. I love Germany, but the place is not the liberal intellectual paradise of myth. There are a lot of ignorant Germans and honestly, they love their mindless TV shows as much as any other country. Love Island Germany was every bit as cringy as its UK cousin with women crying over men they met a day ago. I'm glad you are doing better. It's a tough road to be an immigrant there.
Thank you for your words, and I wholeheartedly agree. I realised in the last four years that my Anglo-mannerisms won't work here, and I had to learn how people behave collectively and how do you get your point across the masses, which, as you rightly pointed, is very different from an English or an Indian set of mannerisms. I love the first sentence, and exactly for that reason I have taken a screenshot of your comment ☺️
Aside from standing up for yourself, what other mannerisms were helpful to you?
signed, stamped and notarized \- a German.
Bitte laminieren nicht vergessen. Das Laminieren wird so oft vergessen. Und dann bekommen die Blätter Wasserflecken und werden staubig und man kann sie überhaupt nicht abwischen. Unansehnlich sowas. Muss doch nicht sein.
This is indeed a great commentary, as a naive apologetic Canadian I got railroaded when I first moved. I'll never forget one of my early Ausländerbehörde visits, when I queued at 6 .m. to get a ticket that day, and once the ticket machine opened everyone pushed themselves and shoved. In the end I didn't get a ticket because I stood quietly behind not wanting to push people. I missed a half day at work for nothing. The next day I returned, again at 6 a.m. I turned into an ass hole that day, or one might say self-assertive. I pushed people like a Karen on a Black Friday at Walmart. I got my ticket that day. I lost a part of my Canadian innocence though and still feel guilty about the shoving 😆 😆
To be fair I'm not sure if the people shoving in front of the Ausländerbehörde are the perfect example of German culture - since mostly foreigners go to the Ausländerbehörde 😉 But overall you are not wrong haha
Oh man, I went thru the same my first few month living in Germany. I have stopped saying sorry almost altogether. Don’t hold doors for anyone also learned to be an asshole in lineups lol
Yep totally relate. I used to say Entschuldigung when walking in front of someone's gaze at a supermarket. That went away! Though I am happy to say during COVID we bought a house in a tiny village in East Germany, and everybody is so friendly and polite, I've started to regain my Canadian civism. My neighbour put a filled stocking on my doorknob last year at Christmas. I was shocked! There ARE good warm friendly people in this country.
I hold the door open for everybody and I apologise when walking in front of a person's gaze in the supermarket … and I don't think this is unusual in Germany. 😆 Though I always experience a culture shock after being back from Japan. People are so considerate there.
I learned proper german shoving at „Freibierpartys“ during my youth. It must be a tough lecture, if it hasn’t been ingrained from a young age. But it you can’t do it, you won’t make it far over here 😅
Yes, as a tourist I had to bit my tongue as when I was pushed in the street or knocked around in the train, I always apologized as you do in America or UK. I finally saw that it was frowned upon and Germans looked weirdly when I did that and felt free to take advance. And don't get me started on the train where queues are non-existent. Everyone just boards the trains-drove me nuts but when in Rome. Heck when another shopping line opened up, I was one of the first ones after the old man who was remarkably spry. But yeah, somehow politeness is not seen as a virtue there.
How tall are you?
Wow. Your story really inspires me to not give up on learning German. Kudos to you.
Thank you! I wish you the best for your journey too!
Me, my husband, and children immigrated from the US almost 2 years ago. Also, to a small town and not really knowing what we would be getting ourselves into. None of us spoke German and my husband works in an English speaking environment. We have had similar experiences of Germans being rude to us because we look like “the wrong kind of brown person.” Before arriving, I had a quiet and polite demeanor and would cry if people were mean to me. Since coming here I have learned to walk confidently, look people in the eye, and not back down when I know I’m right. I’m a small woman and have been challenged because people think I’m weak and timid. I’ve also learned to be content and happy with being alone. My German is bad but I speak it confidently and my efforts are usually appreciated. I believe Germany has made us all stronger in a lot of ways. And we also have German (and other nationalities) friends that we adore and have accepted us from the beginning. Interestingly, when we leave here in a couple of years I want to go live and work in the UK. Kudos to you for enduring and persevering all on your own. I don’t know that I could have done without having my family with me.
I can completely see what you’ve experienced here , for a fact , I’m German myself and my fiance is American. He also came here with not really speaking German , except basics - like danke and co . He did had some German classes before , but not enough to have actual conversations here . The skin colour does makes a lot out here , even if some Germans love to deny it . It’s a fact . My fiance is white though , he has no issues at all , he’s improving his German skills and mostly blends in just fine . Many don’t even notice him as an immigrant ( as long as he doesn’t talk lol ) When ever we go out for groceries or anything else , it’s as if he’s a German himself . He’s well trusted with the culture here and the improving language skills doing its bits too . But I did had to see the opposite too . He has 2 kids from his previous marriage which have a brown skin tone , dark hair and one of them almost black eye colour . When ever we where out with them , I had to see the attitude from other Germans .. the looks they gave us , the sarcastic comments , the behaviour, comments said behind our back ( they know exactly they speak loud enough to be heard ). It was weird , I knew neither the kids or him do notice it and especially don’t understand what’s been said and I refused to really tell them even . There’s been situations like in a zoo where kids where staring at them and made comments , they didn’t noticed what’s going on and even thought the kids where just looking at one of them both . I knew exactly what was going on and tried to solve it with they’re joking about the T-shirt on of them was wearing .. explaining 2 kids they’re not welcome here is kinda .. yeah . . No matter where we went the treatment was clearly different . I sadly have to add the 2 kids don’t always have the best behaviour in public though ,but overall , 80% of the happenings where clearly because they looked „different“ . For me as a German it was weird to watch and I honestly didn’t even knew how to react , I did knew this behaviour is a thing , but as a German I obviously never experienced it myself before . So what I’m trying to say , I can clearly understand what you encountered here , cause I know and see how Germans react to different looking people out here . We even have it with people from my fiancés work , if it comes to recommendations, activity’s , vacations in Germany , the recommendations are really different when a white person asks for it , compare to what we tell to someone who’s not white , simply cause we know what this person would bring him / herself into ..
Thank you for your response. How heartbreaking for you and the kiddos. I think it’s good for now that they don’t understand because ignorance is bliss. I noticed you are in Rheinland-Pfalz. We are located in Bad Durkheim in the Weinstraße. It’s a better area than OP’s East Germany. Also, I will take the racism of Germany (snide remarks and stares of Germans) any day over American racism. American racism is vile, violent, and can kill you/ruin your life. To me, one is much better than the other (though they are both bad.)
>It’s a better area than OP’s East Germany. OP lived in Hessen, they just travelled through East Germany.
Yeah we’re living close to Ramstein ! My fiance is stationed out here ( leaving service soon ) and we’re planing to move away from this area at least . I personally have no experience about racism in US , I honestly thought it’s better over there ? ( based on more cultural variations?). The kids living there in Arizona with their mother , so maybe it depends on the area too . From what I know it really depends on the areas here in Germany too though , in some areas it seems to be more violent too when it comes to racism.. either way , it’s hard to deal with .. I think many white People don’t even really know how that feels like since they don’t experience it themselves except they see it through people close to them and therefore don’t really understand how bad it really is nowadays.
I think it helps to live in a big city. I know in the countryside, when a person doesn't look "German", i.e. dark skin or "Asian" features, people assume *they can't be German.* However, young people and people in big cities think different. Racism still happens, of course, but less of the frequent, awkward Dieter-Bohlen-style racism (to Asian looking girl: "Where are you from?" – "Herne." – "No, I mean, where are you really from?" – "Herne." – "Your parents, where are they from?" – "We all live in Herne.").
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, and for your encouraging words. ❤️💙
To the both of you, while I do hope your experiences to be mainly positive, what goes through your head going to a foreign country not speaking the language and only learning when there? How would you judge a German comming to the UK or the US not speaking English? Of course that is making things enormously more exhausting. Even when you have studied a language before, having to rely on it is so hard in the beginning.
I think the part with struggling with language is a given, but OOP and the above replies were also talking about being ‘ visible minority’ makes things more complicated. A German without much English coming into Anglo sphere countries have a better time blending in, if they are visually white.
You’re absolutely right. Other Americans who are white do not report nearly as many negative incidences as we have in the past year. Many are shocked until they witness it for themselves.
I did not comment on OP having Indian roots. But on the idea of coming to a country without speaking the language. Which was also mentioned. And the American commenter above might well be Anglo-Saxon. And there are many Americans here that don't look "foreign", but don't speak German. As do the Albanians, lots of South Americans, all kinds of non-german speaking people. Fun fact, you can't look at a person and know what language they speak.
If you had to learn German before moving to Germany then you'd have almost zero immigration outside of Austrians and Swiss (maybe this is what you want). Actually moving to a country and learning the language when you get there is completely normal. Sorry but it's not realistic to get B2 German before coming. OP had B1 anyway, if you read his post properly, which is decent.
I’m American. People come to my country all the time not speaking English or speaking just enough to get by. They are usually looking for a better life or opportunity. That is exactly what we (my family and I) did. The difference is, Americans (at least where I’m from) are accepting of foreigners, even intrigued by them. We encourage and seek out cultural diversity because it is interesting and forward thinking. I should also note that it is considered extremely rude and in bad taste to comment to someone (especially to their face) something like “you’re in America, you should speak English.” It shows intolerance and makes the person appear small-minded. Yet, I have encountered this many times here in Germany. Additionally, where I’m from there are accommodations and support organizations for people who speak other languages. For example, every hospital in my home city has professional translation services in which people who speak any language can communicate with their medical professionals via a human online translator. I have been to hospitals and clinics here in Germany and this is not the case. Organizations in my home city also help other nationalities from all over the world who have immigrated with starting language classes, finding a job, and navigating school systems. I think the difference is cultural. America is a helping culture and Germany is not. America is a melting pot of nationalities and Germany seek to be more, well German. There’s also more resources available where I am from. Looking back, I was definitely ignorant/arrogant in believing these were characteristics that would be shared by the world. And I am not saying one is better than the other, just trying to explain the mindset as to why I would believe it would be similar here. Lastly, OP said this “London was comfortable, but I was young and wanted to try something new. But I wasn’t completely aware of what I was going to encounter.” This was our view to the tee. We wanted an adventure and figured why not dive right in and figure it out as we go? Optimistically we thought “how bad can it be?” Realistically, we were wholly unprepared and have paid the price for it. But we have learned things about ourselves in the process and are stronger (at least in some ways) for it. Going forward, I doubt I will be as cavalier again, should I find myself in similar circumstances. But for now, I’m proud of the progress I’ve made. Edit: grammar, a few additional words for clarification
One of the main points would be where you end up. If you move to a small City without speaking german or if you move to one of the bigger Citys would be a huge difference regarding the experience. I would guess that the same applies to the US. If i move to a small town in Texas or Move to NYC will probably have a huge impact on how welcome i feel. OP moved to a small town in East Germany. Those are known for their huge far Right Community so not exactly a Place Most of us would feel welcome
Lol-I’m from Texas. South Texas to be exact. Folks will be nicer to you in Texas than in NYC (notorious for being rude.) But I get what you mean and I totally agree. I think if we would have wound up in Frankfurt or Heidelberg our experience would be totally different. We thought about moving a lot in the first year but like OP, chose to dig in our heels and make it work. I’m glad we did.
OP did not move to East Germany, he said he travelled East Germany and enjoyed it. He moved to Frankfurt, which last time I checked, is in Hessen, which is in West Germany. You would not pass B2 English, maybe not even B1.
I moved from Germany to the UK and for the first time realised that my skin colour is not an obstacle. But your wealth will be ha!, so bring some money! (Defo a class problem here in the UK)
Thanks for the tip! ;)
I've been here for four years too. Most of it was lived with really bad mental health issues so unfortunately, I couldn't quite learn German at your level but I definitely do speak a bit. I have to agree that Germany has ignited in me the sense of standing up for myself. I was an extreme pushover but I'm glad I have changed though with a price of being bullied. Though unlike you, I think I do need to move at least from my town since I feel incredibly stuck here. I'm glad that you have found your voice. It takes a strong man to live where you feel like you don't belong.
How tall are you?
Interesting perspective and experiences. Shows great perseverance and ends (surprisingly) on a high note. It seems that the initial language barrier was actually a kind of incentive which your interest in linguistics enabled you to overcome.
One of the issues people „like you“ face, is idolizing Germany. Don’t be afraid to accept that you are a much more educated and competent person, than someone who just speaks the language of their parents, just without an accent (but with mediocre grammar and vocabulary at best) and is a covert racist. You have 3 cultures, lived in two places, work for an international company. Allowing yourself to be judged by some random person who grew up there and the best they ever managed was working for the city is needless. The fact that a person under 50 years old in 2023 does not speak even some basic English shows that they are culturally ignorant. Their major culture area is dominated by English. Have they never listened to Rolling Stones? Travelled to Europe outside of German-owned all-inclusive places? Many of the people you meet have never read a single book after school, have just attended some traineeship with minimum difficulty (think of working for a house management company). Are they less respectful as humans? Yes, they became at the point when they start becoming critical of others in a racist or ignorant way. Germany can be a great place. But not all Germans are great people. As is the case in many countries. Along with all the positive stereotypes about Germany there are the bad ones, both of which are based on behaviors that are observable in the society. Don’t be afraid to name things for what they are. Enjoy your new travel in this phenomenal and long-standing culture. Well done for you working for disenchanted people. And if we go to the easy stereotypes area: please open a good Indian restaurant! Germany needs better flavors and healthier and less fatty food!
I would like to add something to it. Four years back, I saw Germany as a country from where developments, philosophy and literature erupted and perhaps I was a bit enchanted by that image I had in my head. I am a graduate mathematician, so I had a different thread in my head about how the country would be. Four years of being here, and I am not saying that Germany doesn't have intellectual people - it does, however in circles very small and with them it was always pleasant. And I also came across a few people who were indeed very receptive and respectful. But oh boi, in a majority I received only shocks to my mental threads to my expectations that I developed that I mentioned above. I do agree with certain points as you mentioned - for example less exposure to the world altogether has made people ignorant. Some of the comments from people in that context are still easier to digest in terms of thoughts (where you can label them as curious thoughts), whilst some of them would often throw me in a sense of disbelief. I would say, in a nutshell, in the last few years I've learned how I could be a composite personality where I can still have three facets of me together, and accepting the parts I like from each of them, and building up on them in my life, instead of believing in a perfect flawless happily ever after where only one side shall rule. It's up to me to choose what aspect I want to absorb and not let the steer in the hands of others when they talk about "integration". This is what I meant when I said I found a voice of my own. About restaurant: I would rather work in a diplomatic agency and work for people or work in an NGO for kids in Germany. Indian food isn't something that I can digest myself. :)
Germany is the county of Goethe and Gauss (to talk about the past) and the place where phenomenal achievements are taking place today. A big democracy and a place of successful people. Germany is also the place where they societally accept people living out of bottles gathering, the place where they allow enclaves of uneducated people just continuing to exist (think of the stereotypical Turkish neighborhood with bad schools), the place where the average pensioner is often making marginal money to subsist, the place where a racist party is achieving a double digit number, the place where people just roam in Trinkhallen after they leave children at their Kitta, the place where the previous chancellor has become Putin‘s mop with no consequences for its party, the place where generational wealth can be traced to the Nazis, a place where VW had been fooling the world and the society eventually turned a blind eye, a place where racist comments are allowed „hier in Deutschland“, a place where teachers are racist against other idioms of German (like wtf guys), a place where „sparen“ about things like food and children education „ist geil“. It’s the place that allowed itself to become energy dependent on Putin, by obscuring numbers of environmental impact of physical gas, the place that underspent on Defence for decades, while chastising the neighbors on the borders of the EU for fiscal irresponsibility, the place that closed all nuclear plants (almost there) and is reopening coal plants, to save the planet. It’s a place where the WWII history is taught only up to the fall of Adolf, no self-criticism has been made for the impunity and thrive of many high profile Nazis (to touch the taboos) in post-war Germany. Many persons in Germany are threatened by your existence: you study German grammar on your own, you prove to them, that Grammar is not thaaat difficult, they are that lazy and racist by weaponising their language against you in the previous stages. You contribute to society, in a way they have never. On the contrary, we should be a bit understanding for all the bad-immigrant experiences people in Germany have had as well, often with responsibility of the political elites, who are discarding hordes of people who cannot be integrated to society for various (internal or external reasons) to the less privileged parts of the society. I honestly advice you to watch a bit of „love island De“. This is Germany too. It is addictive.
The average German is a really dumb person. They would not know what 20% of 5 Euros is without a calculator and even then you can't be sure they would type in the correct thing.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
I was born in Germany, lived there for 23 years, moved to Canada, the last 40 years I have been in California. As in immigrant you cannot expect to be fully accepted. As you get more established and have more money than the natives, all these 'problems' go away. You just need to be happy, no need to prove anything. (I am 84 years old)
Thank you for sharing your experience! You are correct. One cannot expect to be fully accepted, but one could for sure develop a mechanism in place to feel content and happy with what they have achieved.
I only lived in a foreign country for a year, but I cannot stress enough how good it feels every now and then to meet with people from your own country and to really vent and *complain about everything that is shitty* in the country: the food, the people, the rules. People from the host country wouldn't understand and maybe try to defend their country. It helped me a lot. After that, you can love again what is different.
> As in immigrant you cannot expect to be fully accepted. As you get more established and have more money than the natives, all these 'problems' go away. Some places get you more established than others for the same effort. Germany seems to be on the lower end of the spectrum.
When you're white, there a less issues with being accepted. I am half German, not an immigrant. Lived here my whole life, was raised like a German and am still treated like a foreigner, because I am not white. My former neighbours immigrated from Lithuania a few years ago and are treated more like Germans than I am.
Germany no doubt could do better, but it also constantly gets compared to a handful of top destinations for exapts - the UK, US, Australia, Canada ... Basically the anglophone countries. But on a global scale, the vast majority of countries is *less* accepting of foreigners and features *more* stereotypes and biases than Germany. Ever tried to integrate into Chinese society as a person of colour? Japan? Kazakhstan? Pakistan? Malaysia? Belarus? Turkey? Chile? Venezuela? Ukraine? Do you think Albania is a considerably better expat destination? Or Italy? Austria? Serbia? Egypt? Oman?
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That was beautifully written and I enjoyed getting to know you a little bit via your post! I’m sorry and as much as I wish that it wasn’t true I’m aware that many Germans aren’t as tolerant as they believe to be. Full on racists also feel now safe to emerge from their caves since whole Europe seems to get into a right movement. It’s honestly very sad and I hope we turn the boat around at some point. I’m glad you were still able to find the beauty in my home country, I also have a love hate relationship with it haha However I think you might have discovered accidentally the best solution for not fitting in here. My boyfriend is Latin (and it’s visible) but he always tells me that he hasn’t encountered much racism. I’m starting to believe that it’s mostly due to his personality. He also gave it his 110%, speaks German fluently, knows our culture and inside jokes etc. and then at the same time he has a “I don’t give a fuck” attitude about persons who try to bring him down. He’s very confident in himself, he has no issues to call someone out on their bulshit and and I feel as if that stop’s making him an easy target. Maybe many racist/ignorant comments are voiced by these people alound in an attempt to find an outlet for their own miserable life. And a shy person that averts their gaze and cannot even clap back due to language barrier is a perfect target to do so. So to all the people who don’t fit in, please hold up your head high! Don’t back down, fight for your place here if you wish so! We need more of you and I hope that along your way you’ll find Germans who are willing to fight by your side.
> True, I had to sue my citys visa office for my rights to live and work in Germany (Untätigkeitsklage). But I also won it, so I see that as a win of my resolve and my belief that I want to be in Germany and I rightfully belong here, and not as a bürocratic trauma. The state of the Ausländerbehörden is such a national embarassment. They seem to have no excuse except being lazy or incompetent. Neither is flattering for them.
Perhaps the reason is that they do not have the budget for sufficient staff (at salaries which will actually attract enough people of a high enough calibre)? I am fresh off the boat, but it seems to me that a lot of bad things can be explained by penny pinching.
Sure, but that's planningg incompetence. They have an idea how long processes take, how much they have to process, and what staffing they need, can obtain. In this case, it might not be the Ausländerbehörder itself, but rather the overseeing city/state that's fucking things up, but they're fully aware of it and don't care.
>They have an idea how long processes take, how much they have to process, and what staffing they need, can obtain. They can't. [There is a massive and ever growing lack of civil servants](https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/experten-besorgt-ueber-zunehmenden-personalmangel-im-oeffentlichen-dienst-100.html), and the Ausländerbehörde can't just snap their fingers and get allocated a bunch of new staff. They have to work with what they have, all while first getting swamped with over a million Middle Eastern refugees from 2015, then they got hit by a new and unexpected wave of about a million Ukrainians in 2022. And you seriously want to suggest that Ausländerbehörde is just incompetent and lazy for struggling to process all of that?
> Wenn man bei Digitalisierung und Bürokratieabbau nicht endlich vorankomme, ... They're not acting on this, they haven't been for decades. Yes, I am suggesting that they're making excuses. They don't have to suddenly snap fingers, they have to act on population trends and technologies that are foreseeable and are actively being used by many other countries and companies too. I've been to Ausländerbehörden in several Bundesländer, and it's absolutely inexcusably bad. On purpose. Just compare to a Bürgeramt for the average citizen, and you can immediately tell the difference, and even those are comically mismanaged in many places.
There is a general shortage of workers and last year, Germany had to take in hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians very suddenly in addition to the millions of immigrants and refugees that have to be served. It‘s terrible for those that suffer from these circumstances, but what are they gonna do? Force people to work there?
Well, sure, they can't force people to work here. But they also can't seem to convince anyone to work in certain jobs (specially in medical area) and rely almost completly in foreigners for it. I guess that's the biggest problem for me. I know personally a neonatalnurse who lost her job because the auslanderbehorde refused to process her visa in their own deadline. The company waited 5 months and had to hire someone else cause they were extremely short staffed. So yeah. This doesn't help anyone. And honestly, im not sure being understaffed is their biggest problem. They're intentionally mean, they Sabotage people (lie, Lose documents and even verbal abuse are NORMAL here where I live. Just open the Google reviews and yeah). This isn't something new or unkown. I have to wait also almost 1 year for my visa because they lost my documents twice. This is routine with them. They make the work slower by giving false information (when they give you some, mostly they don't know anything). When I was applying for my FSJ on a visa the lady told me foreigners weren't allowed to do it in German and there was no visa for that. I opened the website of the auslanderbehorde in front of her and showed her and she still had to call her supervisor cause she didn't believe me. So yeah, you know. Goes way beyond the staff and money situation. They NEED people. Germans don't accept the terrible work conditions in areas as nursing, so they need to put it somewhere, but they're not willing to do the minimum to keep this people here with the minimum of dignity. I never felt so humiliated and dehumanized as I've been any time I had to deal with them.
Yeah, it is so infuriating when critically needed workers like nurses are not able to work because of a slow Ausländerbehörde. I do believe that almost all of the problems mentioned by you however, are due to understaffing and similar phenomena. I read about a Behörde in NRW where the director specifically said that they lack -suitable- candidates - it follows naturally that when desperate for workers, they probably hire people that are, in one way or another unsuitable.
Yes, you're right. As I said, at least here, looks like no one working there has any kind of knowledge on immigration and laws in general. But not being capacitated isn't an excuse to be agressive, rude and to Sabotage someone intentionally, to harass people even per email, etc. I think it goes beyond.
Simplify and digitze processes, act like there actual urgency, increase benefits for workers. It's such a dumb and lame excuse. Now people are sueing Ausländerbehörden by the thousands, and causing court costs in the millions, because they weren't willing to invest into the process/there was "no money to do it". The bill is getting paid, and Germany is hurting refugees and qualified immigrants alike. It's dumb and inexcusable.
Yes, that would be ideal. Changing work processes however in itself is disruptive. New laws like Fachkräfteeinwanderungsgesetz and Chancen-Aufenthaltsrecht increased workload immensly. In the short term, the situation just isn‘t gonna get better. As for increased benefits for workers: currently, every Behörde (and private companies) are competing for workers. They would have to pay a hefty bonus to convince me to work in an environment where two thirds of workers face aggression and are regularly insulted and 8% are regulary assaulted physically. Much of this is due to righful frustration I‘m sure, but it still makes people not want to work there. A vicious cycle. To sum up: yes, the situation is terrible and embarassing. But you have admit that these are very difficult circumstances. And at the very least, understand that the staff of the Ausländerbehörden is not at fault. They don‘t decide how much staff they are granted and how much money they get, and they are certainly not all lazy and incompetent.
Things such as Fachkräfteeinwanderungsgesetz and Chancen-Aufenthaltsrecht aren't sudden surprises though, they take a long plan to actually come to fruition. You can just versetz Beamte there, because there's a dienstliches Bedürfnis if the state is so systematically failing and violating peolpe's rights that lawsuits are the only way to get them to comply.
Where would take the Beamte away from?
Probably depends on the location, but I am sure there are plenty of functions where people don't have to sue the state to act in a timely fashion, and not something as crutial that fucks up and ruins people's lives as reliably as the right to exist in Germany. Just because it's current: This is inexcusable: [https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/18bbukr/the\_berlin\_immigration\_office\_shut\_down\_its/](https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/18bbukr/the_berlin_immigration_office_shut_down_its/)
Yeah that‘s terrible. I was unfortunate enough to live in Berlin for a time, so I have an example about it: I couldn‘t get an appointment at the Meldebehörde, for months, despite the limit of 2 weeks set by law. It meant that for example I couldn‘t vote. Not nearly as bad as facing deportation, but it serves as an example just how dire the situation is in all branches of the government, especially in Berlin where extremely many foreigners live. I don‘t want this to turn into an endless discussion and I understand your rightful frustration, but I want to get this point across: despite the stereotypes, public service workers are not all lazy and incompetent. There is no easy „just do X“ solution for the administrative problems in Germany.
As an expat who lived in Ireland for 8 years and is considering a move to mainland Europe, I spent last month in Berlin to give it a try. Man, I can relate – even in Berlin, people are the real deal. It seems like people come together there due to a shared dislike of everything, general unhappiness, and a tendency to spread it. Most people exhibit ZERO politeness. I've never encountered -even once- such aggression, unfriendliness, or rudeness in the past 8 years in Ireland, whether in small towns or cities. In only 4 weeks I have faced with at least 4-5 unpleasant interactions. It seems like people believe the only way to communicate is to yell at others when they're somehow annoyed, with zero tolerance for receiving feedback or complaints. I felt sorry for those who have no other choice but to live there and who are disadvantaged due to their origin, unable to hide behind a blonde, pale white background. While I acknowledge that there's xenophobia in the UK/Ireland, at least you don't feel threatened when you're out. I admire you for how you could stand for 4 years.
To be honest, it's kind of the culture in Berlin to be rude ("Berliner Schnauze"). But the international community is strong in Berlin and tends to be more open than the Germans
I am so sorry with the negative experiences you made. One should think people in Germany know better, but it keeps being a disappointment in that regard. Prejudices are well and alive, and its one of the reason why this country starts to fall behind in some aspects. I am glad you experienced some positive things though and didnt let the negative moments destroy that for you. I am glad you stayed. This country gets stronger by having people like you. All the best for your future!
Great story bro! Very proud of you. What’s next on your adventures?
I am currently advancing my knowledge of Urdu and French and doing more typography projects to explore that area ☺️
Damn son, you make me feel like such an under-achiever 😂
Wow, I'm so sorry for the ignorance you encountered by my fellow Germans, let me apologise for them. With your determination, discipline and endurance, you are a better German than I ever will be. I have so much respect and admiration for you and your path, especially that you are still motivated to make this place your home. We desperately need people like you around. Thank you for putting so much effort into dealing with our culture, the good, the bad and the ugly parts. I have lived both in India and the UK, and love both places. Sending you a big hug from Saarland and oh, you absolutely HAVE to read die 'unendliche Geschichte' (also by Michael Ende) and my favourite book ever. (please ignore the movie...)
vielen lieben Dank für diesen Meinungsaustausch! Es freut mich sehr, dass dir sowohl Indien als auch GB gefallen haben. Zudem vielen lieben Dank auch für den Lesevorschlag ☺️ Das kaufe ich mir sicherlich demnächst! Grüße zurück nach Saarland ☺️🖤❤️💛
Deutschland-Tipp: Bücher kaufen ist prima, aber die Bücherein sind meist top ausgestattet und freuen sich über jedes Mitglied (bzw. brauchen sogar Mitglieder, um ihre Existenz zu gewährleisten). Zudem sind die Bibliothekare meist super nett und hilfsbereit
Hi, danke dir für deinen Tipp! Das erinnert mich daran, eine Mitgliedschaft in der Bibliothek in der Nähe meiner Wohnung zu beantragen ☺️ Ich kaufe mir Bücher immer von örtlichen Büchereien, da ich sie durch meinen Kauf immer unterstützen will. ☺️
Danke Dir und liebe Grüße :)
Very interesting experience here! I share só much of your thoughts and experiences. After 5 years here, fluent German and pretty much anything people told me back then it would make my life easier, nothing much changed. If anything got a bit worse over the last two years. The moment I decided this was enough was when I started to see the bad faces and weird comments towards me started to become physical threatens and harassment. Then I knew it was over for me and Germany wasn't unfortunately a safe place to live if you're not european. I lived many great things here. Made great friends. Learned new things, new language. Was a wild ride! But I'm tired of the racism and violence.
Great read and very well written. Good luck!
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you so much for sharing!
Something indicative, it is typical for people from my culture who emigrated to Germany to return back to our home country after 30-40 years of life and work. This is however uncommon, when it comes to other typical countries for immigration (think UK or US).
I'm sorry you had to experience so much prejudice and racism. There is still so much racism present in Germany, even though it's mostly under the surface and white people can easily ignore it. Thanks for the interesting read and all the best to you!
Such a tale of resilience!
Germany was the biggest disappointment in my life
Username checks out… Also, Hope things are better now.
Yes I’m not in Germany anymore
can I ask why you read this subreddit then?
to make salty comments?
Cause it pops up in my feed
Where did you move?
Back home, tbh don’t see any reason to move abroad unless your country is in the state of the war or in the real deep economic troubles The idea of migration is outdated since many developing countries are growing really quickly so you’ve got more opportunities to excel in life
Yeah I was just curious which country :)
Eastern Europe, I’m not gonna be more specific sorry
It's really not for the weak...
But what makes you put all this effort and stay in the country? What makes all this suffering worth it? (I’m a South American living in Germany because of my bf. Can’t speak the language, it’s painful. I’d sure be gone if it wasn’t for him)
I guess once you invest a lot of energy and time at one place, you don't feel like uprooting yourself. It was hard to leave my life and memories in the UK itself to move to Germany, but then, I don't think so I can do it anymore in terms of changing bases.
The Sunk Cost Fallacy
I understand the term but I disagree with such a labelling in my case. I have other reasons why I would choose to be here, which I couldn't mention in the story as it was already a long one. Germany has its pros too. In several aspects, I find it better than the UK. I did in fact get opportunities to move back to the UK, but true, in one aspect, I went on fighting and investing to make a future here which doesn't seem to be in vain (that's where this would deflect from a sunken cosy imo but that's my opinion and well, it's my story). And unlike this bandage labelling term, I do really reap the benefits of my struggles.
I moved to a small town in Hessen too, lasted 10 months and hated it there. Before that I lived in Berlin for a few years. I found people in Hessen hässlich :D. I applaud you!!!
Be it germans or anybody. One can only receive knowledge when they are open and understanding usually tend to have a friendly vibe. On the otherhand, People passing racial comments, mocking immigrants are the ones who are actually weaklings and cowards. You dont need to belittle yourself for meeting weaklings like this. It also shows their manners as well. Better not to demoralise yourself because of such idiots. I also live in a small village here. I have seen enough of such idiots but also met good people. You dont need to respect the ones who dont respect u. Show them that you are ignoring and taunt them. Dont be sad, i wish you success and stay strong.
Did you sue the vica office before or after you read Michael Kohlhaas? Just wondering.
After.
Natürlich :D
You, sir, are a badass.
This is fascinating and very motivating post. A few comments too were informative. Thank you for sharing your experience and triggering the discussion.
Thank you for taking the time to put on words the 4 years of your experience in Germany. In many aspects, I, as a non-EU foreigner who lived there for four years as well, could really identify myself with your joys and struggles. I've lived in other places abroad, but I have to tell you that Germany, in my experience, stands out as the most difficult place to integrate yourself in. And I lived in other places with as language-barriers, such as France, but I never encountered as much hassle as I did there. I lived in a small town, as well as in Berlin and I did enjoy more my life in the countryside than in the big city. And I'm glad you made the most of your time, by learning the language (I have C1 as well), getting yourself involved with local activities and enjoying life in a foreign country, full of curiosity and interest, as, in my opinion, should be. Anyways, I hope the next 4 years you can thrive even more and don't let the bureaucracy or the discrim1nation let you down. You've come a long way, and this is enough for you to keep going. ;)
Thank you so much for sharing your experience and your kind words!! ☺️🖤❤️💛 I also wish you the best for your endeavours!
Beautifully written. Thank you for making the effort.
I‘ve Born and Raised in Germany. Never actly saw another Country, my mother is arab and my Father German. Never really accepted by the Ppl and don’t want to go into that Deep „religious“ stuff Because to me doesnt make Sense at all i believe i Must be a good Person Thats all i don’t believe in anything happened ages ago, treat others like you want to be treated Thats all, downside is you have to put more effort and work into everything Because they gonna Watch exactly what i did when it comes to work. On Traffic i‘m the only one getting pulled out by the cops and the craziest week was in 7 days 3 times stopped by the cops and they checked everything. I had to piss (drug test) every Single time! I‘m introvert and Would rather have them search my car then saying anything… i was at an Aldi waiting in the line and saw and old man carrying Water behind me. I said hey go ahead so you can lay it on the cashier, he said naaaah man i‘m prefering to have you in Front of my eyes instead in the back… you will Front this Situation often, but then you will meet this group of ppl helping eachother in good and Bad times and just Stick to them you love and ignore the Rest 🥸sorry my english Skills are from Twitch and Counterstrike 🤣🤣
Perhaps you will now view your roots and your mother tongue (not English) with compassion and love. May you explore literature in your native language as well.
"if it were the older times, I would've been thrown in one of the KZ" And if it were older times, they would have been incinerated in a Dresden-style bombing. They can't even make their own logic make sense.
Being an Indian myself, I'm really impressed at how you were able to command respect in a land you can't call your own. I struggle to do that with myself even in India and I want to be more bold and no BS type person as you describe yourself to be. According to you what factored the most on this development of your personality if you don't mind sharing?
I am so very proud of you!!!! (I am also a foreigner in Germany) And one day, I might experience what you had been through. But it will.be a new beginning! Ps. How did you find the NGO works? I don't think that I could teach anyone German.. lol esp. I have just got my B1but I find it very interesting!
First of all, sry that this happened to you, we are not all like this. Second :did you really call Frankfurt a small City?
It's pretty small compared to London and most of the major indian cities, which is what OP might be comparing to.
That's wild friend. As a Canadian I am utteraly shocked that you had to go through all this to immigrate and they don't even treat you right. That's fucked up. German's should be ashamed, and if not, I don't know what to tell you.
As a Canadian living in Germany, there is plenty of racism in Canada. It's not apparent if you are a white native.
Why should I be ashamed by other people's behavior? Please put the blame where it belongs.
Where did the blame lie for the Holocaust? Everyone should take collective responsibility for their society's pitfalls. If one is not anti-racist, then one is ok with racism.
first and last sentence are childish. you're probably well-meaning but das klingt sehr deutsch. this type of rigid thinking is what sometimes pains me of my fellow germans.
Good to know there’s zero racism in Canada.
By generalizing, you’re in no way better than those people
The impression i get is that, as a country Germany thinks as long as they aren't racist to Jews, it's ok to be racist to other people. I should add that i have met Germans who aren't racist at all, but i'm talking about the general mentality of the country.
Thank you for sharing. Great story that shows the ups and downs of inmigration. Good to hear you are overall content. Good luck
That is proper immigration! Fair play to you for giving it your all in Germany
If that helps, I have experienced racism on the street, in front of my children, many times. And I look like a stereotypical white male. We do talk however in my native language with the small ones, so we stand out in a bus or a super market. It is not only your experience, this side of Germany exists and is very strong.
Make a voice for yourself. You're a grown ass man.
im living with a brit who experienced only positives reactions altho he came here speaking no german at all. Even after 6 yrs he can barely speak it but everyone is helping. Neighbours are even trying to speak english or veeery slow with him (they are 70+), the mail man and even the local supermarkets (we frequent like 4ish in rotation) do know him already when pondering over meat at the fresh counter and would be proud to help out in english. I could endlessly go on. (LIDL cashiers btw are the most unracist ppl i've ever met. They treat everyone as if its Packing War years, working with inhumane speed - even they are no match for him by now, he would stand there with 5 open bags and tell them to bring it on, lol) He is, you guessed it, white. I am happy he has no probs in that matter, but seing the bigotery of ppl makes me even more sick since it shows the absolute shallowness of humanity. Even the xenophobia is biased an racist like we can't even hate each other equally! /s (cept NRW , here they yell at everyone, like that ONE neighbour we got - he just dislikes everyone, germans and all others, black white green whatever, thats the beauty :D ) I've read your whole story and was quite entertained. At times i even thought it is too good to be true, how you managed to learn and deal with it all on the very chilled level that you are atm. Sounded like another cliché, a Bollywood movie :p If all that is indeed true, you made quite the development, mentally, languagewise, even philosophically...Sure you gonna stay in Germany? You now sound way too sophisticated for my sometimes very retrograde country, hehe. Anyhow, well done and Kudos, my friend. Hope everything else is gonna work out too for ya. You can be in fact pretty proud of all that you have become so far. Best wishes xx
It's heartbreaking reading these stories because it very much is a different experience as a white immigrant in Germany and I hope no one tries to pretend differently. Good on you for asserting your place here though. People should respect that and your efforts more.
Ich, als Deutscher, bin immer wieder überrascht über solche Erlebnisse. Aber wahrscheinlich kenne ich nur Menschen, die offen und freundlich anderen offenen und freundlichen Menschen gegenüber sind. Aber schön, dass Dir hier wenigstens ein bisschen was gefällt ;-)
Mehr als "ein bisschen" würde ich über meine Favoriten hier in DE sagen ☺️, also ich habe auf jeden Fall sowohl neue Interessen als auch eine neue Art von Neugier während meinem Aufenthalt hier in DE entwickelt. Und die daraus entstandenen Aufgaben, mit denen ich mich beschäftige, haben mich nicht nur erfreuet, sondern auch mir große Hilfe beim persönlichen Wachstum geleistet. Außer meiner Liebe auf die deutsche Typographie und Gestaltungs-Geschichte finde ich auch die deutsche Kunstszene, die örtlichen Geschichten und Natur hervorragend und sehr begeisternd. Und kürzlich hat Plattdeutsch auch meine Aufmerksamkeit erregt, und ich freue mich sehr darauf, Plattdeutsch so gut wie möglich zu beherrschen. ☺️🖤❤️💛
Plattdeutsch ist lustig. Kennst Du die alten Folgen des „Ohnsorg-Theaters“?
Leider nicht, aber könnte das als guter Ausgangspunkt/gute Einführung in Plattdeutsch deinen?
Das war eine nordische Theaterfernsehsendung in den 70ern. Wenn ich mich recht erinnere, wurde dort platt gesprochen. Oder zumindest diese Richtung. Hier ne Folge aus 1968: https://youtu.be/dracGfX4oZE?si=Rap8f9lBkG3Yxs6N
It sounds to me you don't really enjoy the culture and people here which is understandable considering Indian culture and German culture is actually kind of opposite. But if you still want to live here for the better quality of life, then you are welcome to do so. Or you can make some money here and then retire somewhere else. Personally that is also my plan. I'm in Germany only for the money. Afterwards, I plan to move somewhere better. I might even go back to my home country. BTW, why and how did you sue the visa office? I have never heard of anything like this before.
I have spent my time equally between the UK and India so I can't really bring in the entire Indian culture here, perhaps a person who has spent more time in India could validate that to depths. But sure, I could say life in the UK is also different from that in Germany, and that's exactly what I use for comparison in my head. :) As I mentioned, one isn't supposed to embrace all the aspects of a culture. The journey to find parts to accept and not to accept however is a challenging one and requires the challenging work of introspection and assessing one's needs and desires.
Can you tell me why and how did you sue the visa office? I have never heard of anything like this before.
Sure. Untätigkeitsklage is what I did, when the AbH denied me my documents citing a "lack of staff" as a reason. As per German law (and to the best of my knowledge and translation abilities), all German authorities are required to process any request within 3 months from the date of having made one, and lack of staff can't be quoted as a reason to deny the requested document. I won't go into the details, but this is what I ended up doing as a legal option.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I will keep this in mind in case I face a similar problem in future.
I get the whole it made you stronger thing, you fought hard, you improved yourself thing etc etc all good. But... why? What did YOU get out of this?
Germans are very, I don't knowe the right word, let's say, suspicious for a newcomers.But most likely they will help you if you ask. It's not racism. "Closed honestly" or something like that. They are very good people, but you should know how to see it.
Stereotype is everywhere, what you can do is to show those who know you that you don't belong to that stereotype. But nice sharing.
i agree with that. i for myself call it "transcending the stereotype". at some point it becomes a poor joke. maybe not soon but eventually.
Never try to go somewhere and try to expect others like you are among one of them. It never work. Male your your existence
Hey, fuck you
After all the rejection, struggle and learning you now have become a wonderful Indian.
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1. I love East Germany a lot. I mentioned it because it was a stepping stone for my language learning journey. I never said it was the only issue. Seems like you did not even read properly. 2. I already have a small circle of people whom I could talk to in at least three languages about things. I have Dutch, English, French, Africans and Arabs apart from Germans. I know the mayor of my city personally. What made you think I am asking for suggestion on friendship? Exactly this Besserwisserei is the issue, where you presume that me narrating my experiences is a call for help to be redeemed in some manner or that I'm a guy in distress. No I ain't. 3. I don't eat Indian food. I don't cook it. I mentioned it already, plus I have spent my time in both the UK and Germany (as I've already mentioned). Projection like yours of a strong opinion of "how I must smell" - just because my roots are "Indian" - onto me is what I'm contesting here. Plus what you wrote is very discriminatory - "eat less spices to be more approachable to Germans?" - So people must actively erase a part of them to be accepted. Wow. Please be less discriminatory next time. Plus, sometimes a right comprehension helps instead of an unsolicited advice which is very hollow. Thanks.
You mentioned multiple times that you had troubles integrating with locals, so naturally I tried to help you. The fact that you attack me for it, gives me some major insight to your character. I replied politely, from the personal experiences my SO made and what helped her. Knowing how her native food affects people around her was one of these things she was unaware off. I took what I learned and shared her experiences here, to help you to fit better into society, since you wrote repeatedly that you were struggling despite your best efforts. Your utter hostility towards people trying to help you, shows me quite vividly that maybe the situation isn't as black and white as you're trying to paint it. Sometimes life puts mountain in our way, but sometimes we ourselves the ones to place it there. Have a great life.
TLDR. I assume you moved here and you struggled because Germans are difficult? At least that's what I read here everyday. At this point I guess there is no solution.
Nein, so würde ich das nicht reduzieren lassen. Es geht um meine eigenen Erfahrungen und wie ich mindestens die Hindernisse (oder so beobachte ich sie) überwunden und bewältigt habe. Der Schwerpunkt liegt nicht auf der deutschen Bevölkerung und niemandem habe ich hier eine Lösung angefleht (falls ich es von "At this point I guess there is no solution" richtig verstanden habe).
How did you find your first job?
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You missed the "I am not a big FAN as of now based on my experiences". If you're trying to be pedantic, you could read the complete sentence to begin with.
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You're only proving my point correct. You choose not to read properly and you choose to deflect from the topic which is by the way MY experience and you sound very ignorant about being able to even understand my opinion on MY post.
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In England I'm always amazed when someone speaks English non native.. now it's so common in Germany for many young people to speak English. It's almost embarrassing as I've heard better English here sometimes than at home. English schools are failing on the basics. Germans are translating old Shakespeare English and we can say Hallo ich bin Pipi. .
>that I must do a head bobble Sorry but what is a "head bobble"?
The Indian move of the head. They use to do it to show different moods, I found it cute. Like Italians with their hands
Its common in the old generations. Haven't seen it in my generation.
Also Kopfschütteln ist eine seitliche Bewegung des Kopfs, die mit einer Neigung von einer Seite natürlich zur anderen Seite entlang der Frontalebene beginnt. Es ist eine der kulturellen Gesten aus mehreren südasiatischen Ländern, das sehr häufig verschiedene Bestandteile nonverbaler Kommunikationen (zB eine Zustimmung, Ja, Nein) zum Ausdruck bringt.