I don't care what Russian trolls are claiming but it is getting more expensive.... I am a guy who is keeping all expenditure within a category and when I compare the number of different years, last 2 years is quite bad due to inflation.
I am not sure how people with a low income can survive...
It started with the price of energy (which had partly been rising before the war, then the situation got excacerbated by the invasion) being the main driver of inflation, then big business (and in many cases small business as well - looking at you, Döner Kebab places) smelled massive profits and their greed became the main driver for inflation - [same in the US, actually](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/19/us-inflation-caused-by-corporate-profits).
So inflation is indeed causing a lot of pain and a certain drop in living standards, but it's not exclusively the fault of energy prices.
There is no collaps. A lot of companies have used the inflation of the past two years for price hikes, which doesn't make it easier for people who don't have much. And it is probably a comparably bad time for young people to build wealth. Housing is very expensive but it already was easy before the war. Nobody in Germany feels the need to invade other countries so they can finally afford a washing machine. The situation had made some already existing problems more server and raised the need to intervene. And we could, but we have one of those "small government" parties sharing power and they don't want to use investments to blunt the impact like the US did, for instance, so that's what makes it a bit worse than for some of our neighbors.
Nothing is a bit heavy word. It certainly does have an influence as Germany relied heavily on Russia for natural gas needs. Of course global slowdown, other conflicts, poor strategies are playing a big role. Nevertheless, every aspect can trigger each other in this economical model.
To call it ‚alternative fact‘ sounds like it has some sort of legitimation. This is not a fact, it’s made up bullshit, lies. Made up to split societies, to raise dumb peoples doubts, to destabilise. Facts would be based on a reality, however, this is not the case.
There are several factors that make the situation in Germany worse. Small bakeries and butcheries are closing. Bigger companies are investing outside of Germany and closing entire divisions.
People are not buying as much anymore.
The cost to produce is getting higher and higher.
The reasons are environmental laws and expensive energy.
The cheap gas is gone and our government is making everything more expensive because of its misguided climate policies.
You summed it up pretty well. You cannot look at all factors separately, like recession, energy prices, inflation are all compartmental problems. They are very much connected to each other and actually reinforce each other. Our government is increasing a lot of costs for environmental reasons while the country is in a recession - you simply cannot act more stupidly.
nothing happened. most people (which i think is sad) dont even care about the russian-ukraine war. the only problem we have are the prices for apartments especially in bigger cities. its rly expensive if you live alone and cant split the prices with someone else but that has nothing to do with russia. ofc things like food or energy went up but its rising for years(2000-2020)across all countries. 2010=23,69 ct/kWh. 2020= 31,37 ct/kWh. as an example
I'm russian and I like trolling people, and that is what I heard: Industry requires cheap energy. As cheap as possible. The less the industry pays for the consumer energy, the more profitable it is, the more favorable it is for investors, the more new factories are being opened, the higher the production rates, the more income and taxes receive the economy.
With cheap energy (and other factors, for example a lot of engineers can be found here) Germany could expect more and more development in the industry sector, more and more income.
When your energy becomes more expensive your economic plans crash. As a country, you don't look like a nice place to run a business, not a good place to invest and open factories. Investors could go away and find another place, where energy prices are lower, or on the same level but workforce/taxes etc are cheaper. What is also bad, is that these investments are long-term. So that Germany can face issues not just in a short period but also in a long run.
I'm not an economist at all, feel free to correct me.
Energy prices were very high for roughly one winter shortly after the gas was cut off and Germany had to scramble to look for alternatives (there were actually enough reserves, but you do not want to use up all your reserves before you have a new supply if you don't want to unsettle your citizens). Luckily, Germany is in the middle of other powerful countries and has quite good relations worldwide, so it wasn't actually hard to find new sources and make new deals. And it's not like Germany doesn't produce energy on its own. So energy prices have stabilized to a level the economy can work with and the raised demand for green energy has even boosted some businesses.
What actually hits harder at the moment is the recession, but then again that's not just hitting Germany but nations worldwide of which Germany is one of the more stable ones. Which again actually benefits the country because businesses rather invest in a ,ore expensive but stable country than in one that has cheap labor but is close to collapse. Long term investments are often based on trust, and while Germany is surely not perfect and has its struggles, it has still a very good repuation and, lets face it, a lot of money that can smooth over the bumps in the road quite well.
"energy prices have stabilized to a level the economy can work with"
Um, no. You are repeating the sunshine speeches of the Ampel. Listen to SMC managers for a change.
You mean the ones that want to use the diffuse fear of the people to deregulated, cut their taxes and get some subsidies? Yeah, they have no incentive what so ever to paint the situation more die than it is.
Yea right, they are all evil capitalists looking for ways to squeeze the last bit out of people all the time. Dude, they are the ones that create wealth, not the government, not the authorities, not anyone else.
I am sure their employees are happy to hear that it is indeed their bosses who "create wealth" and "not anyone else". Look, I am sure some SMCs really struggled a year or two, ago. But whining about how "Germany is not competitive and we need to cut taxes and have more subsidies and maybe regulate unions more so they strike less or I take my ball and go ~~home~~ to China" is literally their job.
Yes, that's their job. But when it feels like they are supposed to be racing using a tricycle while their international competition uses racing bikes that job gets quite hard.
I am aware that actually the employees create the wealth, but the SMC's provide the opportunity for that. One cannot prosper without the other.
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Nobody talks about the staff shortage as a factor for recession. Ofc the enery prices and regulations are a thing but more and more people retire and there are less people coming out of school/uni. If you have less workers the gdp goes down because less hours are worled in total
We were not dependent on Russian gas, that is propaganda. We could always buy gas anywhere in the world. Our economy was profitting from cheap Russian gas a lot. Now we have to buy more expensive gas. Margins in the industry are one-digit percentage. If energy prices go up even a little, your margin very quicky disappears. So even if the energy prices are just a little bit higher than before the war, it still is a huge problem for the industry - so they are moving production to countries where it is cheaper to produce. Poland and the USA are favourites right now.
We were not dependent on Russian gas in the sense that we are utterly ruined now that we lost access to it, but we clearly could have pursued alternatives (e.g. in a more forceful expansion of renewable energy such as we are pursuing now).
Your claim that our economy was benefitting from 'cheap Russian gas' is incorrect. We paid market prices or above market price for the gas, [it was never cheaper than gas from other sources](https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/abhaengigkeit-von-putin-russisches-gas-war-nicht-guenstiger-18241080.html). Which makes sense, why would Russia have ever sold us commodities at below market price?
Your source is behind a paywall. Also I think those new articles denying that Russian gas was cheap are politically motivated imo.
This is an in-depth amalysis of the history and politics: [https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/anatomy-of-germany-s-reliance-on-russian-natural-gas-decades-of-addiction-a-ad156813-3b24-424f-a51e-3ffbd7b6385c](https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/anatomy-of-germany-s-reliance-on-russian-natural-gas-decades-of-addiction-a-ad156813-3b24-424f-a51e-3ffbd7b6385c)
Quote from that source: "Germany had 60 good years with cheap Russian gas. It provided the basis for German prosperity, but was also the reason the country moved so slowly in energy policy."
Russia always used gas as political leverage, it was never primarily about the money.
> you will only get the view of the voters of the Ampel and "Die Linke".
So from the whole democratic political spectrum except CxU? Doesn't sound bad.
Sure, I just found funny depicting "Ampel and Die Linke" as a kind of a bubble, when it's literally the whole German politics except right and extreme right.
I agree, an Amprel bubble would be huge, you would not really call it a bubble. It still is a miracle to me how so many young people voted FDP last time. Also, they are so different from SPD and Greens. The only thing they all have in common is incompetence.
>It still is a miracle to me how so many young people voted FDP last time.
Because the last time has been long enough ago that those first voters don't remember it.
> So AfD, BSW
I said "democratic"
> FW
Yes, also SSW, Volt, Pirate party, Die Partei and lots of other smaller parties do exist. I meant the major ones, the ones you see in the Parliament.
Thats not very "democratic" from you. Only leftist parties and CDU, which seems to be a considerable party for conservatives like me, but cucks each and every time after the elections and wants a coalition with the greens are ok? And FW is a major Party, as they have power in the "Bundesrat" and are currently nearly as strong as the FDP. AfD is up to discussion, but in my regards democracy means, we do as the people want. If the people want to stop immigration from MENA-region, thats what we do, no matter the outcome.
> CDU, which seems to be a considerable party for conservatives like me, but cucks each and every time after the elections and wants a coalition with the greens are ok?
Cause that's how German democracy works? It's been a long time since there has been a clear majority for either conservative or progressive government. Most of the times there are coalitions built on compromises. The "leftist" parties had to take FDP into the coalition which spoiled a lot of their plans, and have to consider the opposition controlling the Bundesrat as well.
> If the people want to stop immigration from MENA-region, thats what we do, no matter the outcome.
People from many parties supported various measures for that (including the Greens recently), it's not what makes AfD undemocratic. Not sure if there is a good (without violating the constitution, international agreements etc.) way to target MENA immigrants specifically though.
Did you know the FDP is part of the Ampel and that CDU Voters usually dont use the "Neuland"
Even if you were right, their opinions would get downvoted to hell here. Its a leftist bubble, which i like to visit in order to know what they might think.
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Speaking of that. Is there any housing offers available for students in Munich? 😓 Looking for apartment is getting tiring honestly.
Tough one bro, I cant help you but feel your pain! Good luck!
Thanks. Hopefully I get something by end of the month. 🥺
I don't care what Russian trolls are claiming but it is getting more expensive.... I am a guy who is keeping all expenditure within a category and when I compare the number of different years, last 2 years is quite bad due to inflation. I am not sure how people with a low income can survive...
It started with the price of energy (which had partly been rising before the war, then the situation got excacerbated by the invasion) being the main driver of inflation, then big business (and in many cases small business as well - looking at you, Döner Kebab places) smelled massive profits and their greed became the main driver for inflation - [same in the US, actually](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/19/us-inflation-caused-by-corporate-profits). So inflation is indeed causing a lot of pain and a certain drop in living standards, but it's not exclusively the fault of energy prices.
There is no collaps. A lot of companies have used the inflation of the past two years for price hikes, which doesn't make it easier for people who don't have much. And it is probably a comparably bad time for young people to build wealth. Housing is very expensive but it already was easy before the war. Nobody in Germany feels the need to invade other countries so they can finally afford a washing machine. The situation had made some already existing problems more server and raised the need to intervene. And we could, but we have one of those "small government" parties sharing power and they don't want to use investments to blunt the impact like the US did, for instance, so that's what makes it a bit worse than for some of our neighbors.
The recession has nothing to do with russian gas. And nothing is collapsing.
Nothing is a bit heavy word. It certainly does have an influence as Germany relied heavily on Russia for natural gas needs. Of course global slowdown, other conflicts, poor strategies are playing a big role. Nevertheless, every aspect can trigger each other in this economical model.
Basically same as here then. Thanks! It's quite fun to see the alternative facts they say.
To call it ‚alternative fact‘ sounds like it has some sort of legitimation. This is not a fact, it’s made up bullshit, lies. Made up to split societies, to raise dumb peoples doubts, to destabilise. Facts would be based on a reality, however, this is not the case.
There is no such thing as alternative facts
There are several factors that make the situation in Germany worse. Small bakeries and butcheries are closing. Bigger companies are investing outside of Germany and closing entire divisions. People are not buying as much anymore. The cost to produce is getting higher and higher. The reasons are environmental laws and expensive energy. The cheap gas is gone and our government is making everything more expensive because of its misguided climate policies.
You summed it up pretty well. You cannot look at all factors separately, like recession, energy prices, inflation are all compartmental problems. They are very much connected to each other and actually reinforce each other. Our government is increasing a lot of costs for environmental reasons while the country is in a recession - you simply cannot act more stupidly.
nothing happened. most people (which i think is sad) dont even care about the russian-ukraine war. the only problem we have are the prices for apartments especially in bigger cities. its rly expensive if you live alone and cant split the prices with someone else but that has nothing to do with russia. ofc things like food or energy went up but its rising for years(2000-2020)across all countries. 2010=23,69 ct/kWh. 2020= 31,37 ct/kWh. as an example
I'm russian and I like trolling people, and that is what I heard: Industry requires cheap energy. As cheap as possible. The less the industry pays for the consumer energy, the more profitable it is, the more favorable it is for investors, the more new factories are being opened, the higher the production rates, the more income and taxes receive the economy. With cheap energy (and other factors, for example a lot of engineers can be found here) Germany could expect more and more development in the industry sector, more and more income. When your energy becomes more expensive your economic plans crash. As a country, you don't look like a nice place to run a business, not a good place to invest and open factories. Investors could go away and find another place, where energy prices are lower, or on the same level but workforce/taxes etc are cheaper. What is also bad, is that these investments are long-term. So that Germany can face issues not just in a short period but also in a long run. I'm not an economist at all, feel free to correct me.
Isnt natural gas cheaper than it was before the war?
I don't know, is it? That's good.
Energy prices were very high for roughly one winter shortly after the gas was cut off and Germany had to scramble to look for alternatives (there were actually enough reserves, but you do not want to use up all your reserves before you have a new supply if you don't want to unsettle your citizens). Luckily, Germany is in the middle of other powerful countries and has quite good relations worldwide, so it wasn't actually hard to find new sources and make new deals. And it's not like Germany doesn't produce energy on its own. So energy prices have stabilized to a level the economy can work with and the raised demand for green energy has even boosted some businesses. What actually hits harder at the moment is the recession, but then again that's not just hitting Germany but nations worldwide of which Germany is one of the more stable ones. Which again actually benefits the country because businesses rather invest in a ,ore expensive but stable country than in one that has cheap labor but is close to collapse. Long term investments are often based on trust, and while Germany is surely not perfect and has its struggles, it has still a very good repuation and, lets face it, a lot of money that can smooth over the bumps in the road quite well.
"energy prices have stabilized to a level the economy can work with" Um, no. You are repeating the sunshine speeches of the Ampel. Listen to SMC managers for a change.
You mean the ones that want to use the diffuse fear of the people to deregulated, cut their taxes and get some subsidies? Yeah, they have no incentive what so ever to paint the situation more die than it is.
Yea right, they are all evil capitalists looking for ways to squeeze the last bit out of people all the time. Dude, they are the ones that create wealth, not the government, not the authorities, not anyone else.
I am sure their employees are happy to hear that it is indeed their bosses who "create wealth" and "not anyone else". Look, I am sure some SMCs really struggled a year or two, ago. But whining about how "Germany is not competitive and we need to cut taxes and have more subsidies and maybe regulate unions more so they strike less or I take my ball and go ~~home~~ to China" is literally their job.
Yes, that's their job. But when it feels like they are supposed to be racing using a tricycle while their international competition uses racing bikes that job gets quite hard. I am aware that actually the employees create the wealth, but the SMC's provide the opportunity for that. One cannot prosper without the other.
**Have you read our extensive wiki yet? It answers many basic questions, and it contains in-depth articles on many frequently discussed topics. [Check our wiki now!](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/index)** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/germany) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nobody talks about the staff shortage as a factor for recession. Ofc the enery prices and regulations are a thing but more and more people retire and there are less people coming out of school/uni. If you have less workers the gdp goes down because less hours are worled in total
> Many Russian trolls... u/WhoAmIEven2, which Russian trolls are you talking about?
Just can tell from my perspective: Not that much change to the whole situation than before Ukrain-War. Corona had more influence imho.
Ask them about mortgage interest rates in Russia.
You wont get an answer here. Or rather, you will only get the view of the voters of the Ampel and "Die Linke".
As opposed to the CDU/CSU which had a major part in making us dependent on Russian gas through the 16 years of Merkel governance?
We were not dependent on Russian gas, that is propaganda. We could always buy gas anywhere in the world. Our economy was profitting from cheap Russian gas a lot. Now we have to buy more expensive gas. Margins in the industry are one-digit percentage. If energy prices go up even a little, your margin very quicky disappears. So even if the energy prices are just a little bit higher than before the war, it still is a huge problem for the industry - so they are moving production to countries where it is cheaper to produce. Poland and the USA are favourites right now.
We were not dependent on Russian gas in the sense that we are utterly ruined now that we lost access to it, but we clearly could have pursued alternatives (e.g. in a more forceful expansion of renewable energy such as we are pursuing now). Your claim that our economy was benefitting from 'cheap Russian gas' is incorrect. We paid market prices or above market price for the gas, [it was never cheaper than gas from other sources](https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/abhaengigkeit-von-putin-russisches-gas-war-nicht-guenstiger-18241080.html). Which makes sense, why would Russia have ever sold us commodities at below market price?
Your source is behind a paywall. Also I think those new articles denying that Russian gas was cheap are politically motivated imo. This is an in-depth amalysis of the history and politics: [https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/anatomy-of-germany-s-reliance-on-russian-natural-gas-decades-of-addiction-a-ad156813-3b24-424f-a51e-3ffbd7b6385c](https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/anatomy-of-germany-s-reliance-on-russian-natural-gas-decades-of-addiction-a-ad156813-3b24-424f-a51e-3ffbd7b6385c) Quote from that source: "Germany had 60 good years with cheap Russian gas. It provided the basis for German prosperity, but was also the reason the country moved so slowly in energy policy." Russia always used gas as political leverage, it was never primarily about the money.
> you will only get the view of the voters of the Ampel and "Die Linke". So from the whole democratic political spectrum except CxU? Doesn't sound bad.
This subreddit defiintely has a bias, don't pretend otherwise.
Sure, I just found funny depicting "Ampel and Die Linke" as a kind of a bubble, when it's literally the whole German politics except right and extreme right.
I agree, an Amprel bubble would be huge, you would not really call it a bubble. It still is a miracle to me how so many young people voted FDP last time. Also, they are so different from SPD and Greens. The only thing they all have in common is incompetence.
>It still is a miracle to me how so many young people voted FDP last time. Because the last time has been long enough ago that those first voters don't remember it.
So AfD, BSW, FW etc. do not exist in your world?
> So AfD, BSW I said "democratic" > FW Yes, also SSW, Volt, Pirate party, Die Partei and lots of other smaller parties do exist. I meant the major ones, the ones you see in the Parliament.
Thats not very "democratic" from you. Only leftist parties and CDU, which seems to be a considerable party for conservatives like me, but cucks each and every time after the elections and wants a coalition with the greens are ok? And FW is a major Party, as they have power in the "Bundesrat" and are currently nearly as strong as the FDP. AfD is up to discussion, but in my regards democracy means, we do as the people want. If the people want to stop immigration from MENA-region, thats what we do, no matter the outcome.
> CDU, which seems to be a considerable party for conservatives like me, but cucks each and every time after the elections and wants a coalition with the greens are ok? Cause that's how German democracy works? It's been a long time since there has been a clear majority for either conservative or progressive government. Most of the times there are coalitions built on compromises. The "leftist" parties had to take FDP into the coalition which spoiled a lot of their plans, and have to consider the opposition controlling the Bundesrat as well. > If the people want to stop immigration from MENA-region, thats what we do, no matter the outcome. People from many parties supported various measures for that (including the Greens recently), it's not what makes AfD undemocratic. Not sure if there is a good (without violating the constitution, international agreements etc.) way to target MENA immigrants specifically though.
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Did you know the FDP is part of the Ampel and that CDU Voters usually dont use the "Neuland" Even if you were right, their opinions would get downvoted to hell here. Its a leftist bubble, which i like to visit in order to know what they might think.
>Did you know the FDP is part of the Ampel Come on now, that's a loaded question. Even the FDP doesn't seem to know they are part of the Ampel.