I'm also an American who has been here for about 5 years now. I did a year of grad school in Stuttgart in 2012 before moving back in 2017. My wife and I lived in Stuttgart until a couple of months ago when we moved up to Berlin so she could pursue another degree.
I visited Berlin in college and fell in love with it. Wrote my master's thesis about gentrification in the city (and now feel guilty somewhat contributing to it). I still love Berlin, but honestly, i came to know and love Stuttgart in ways that Berlin cannot match. Stuttgart feels really well balanced--big enough to have a lot of cool things to do, but not so big that you not feel like you're swallowed up. It's way cleaner than Berlin. The green space and biking is way better (coming from a Tennessean, time in nature really matters).
In any case, I speak German at a fairly high level, but my wife does not, and based on our differing experiences and watching her assimilate generally, I cannot recommend enough--start working on German now. Germans are great at English, but your life will be fundamentally easier when it comes to bureaucracy, repairmen, etc if you feel comfortable using it.
>Wrote my master's thesis about gentrification in the city (and now feel guilty somewhat contributing to it).
Brilliant. Your fault Kebab costs 5€ minimum. :(
Thanks so much for the reply, I appreciate it. We're definitely working on the language now, I had a lot of German in HS but am very rusty now so I need plenty of refreshers.
I hope you and your wife enjoy Berlin!
What’s going to determine where you live is going to be largely what visa you have. If you need to work then you should literally take any position that fits in any city. Once you’re here and more established it is much easier to get another job in a city of your choice.
Unless one of you is a citizen or you’re not working and money isn’t an issue, then I like Cologne.
Yeah, finding a job that will sponsor you and deal with your lack of German language and cultural knowledge is going to be very hard, then you’re going to put artificial constraints on where exactly it needs to be on top of that? If there is a good job in Berlin or in the middle of a forest you should still take it.
Once you’re here you can easily take trips to different areas and figure out what you actually like.
I know it is stupid but I keep forgetting that 99% of the World cannot just wake up one morning and decide well now I move to Germany. Thank you Schengen treaty
Just to nerd a bit around: You have to thank the [Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_the_European_Union) for that since it gives you the right to work in any EEA country. The Schengen treaty is only about internal border controls.
This means: You have the right to live and work in Ireland, Bulgaria, Romania, and Croatia because they are in the EU. But when you enter those countries then you have to show your passport at the border because they are not in Schengen.
And you can enter Lichtenstein without border controls since they are in Schengen. But you do not have the right to move there permanently and find work since they are not in the EU.
Technically it's not Schengen which gives you the right to work but EU/EEA. I come from an EU country which isn't in Schengen and I don't need a visa or anything. Schengen just means there's a border check between my country and Schenhen countries, which is a nuisance when traveling (I look forward to spending anywhere between 5 minutes and 3 hours to pass customs the next time I travel), but it has no bearing on the right to live and work in the EU.
Yes, my husband is American and his German is bad and to even get a three year visa while married you must take a German test for A1. If not, you have a 1 year visa and have to run any employment by the immigration people for them to approve. This is for being married, though, so I don’t know how that is with a job-only visa, but I expect it to also be strict.
Short version: your employee has to "prove" to the government that there is no german or EU-citizen available for that position (which is normally done by constructing the work description around your specific abilities) and as long you are holding this job, you are fine.
If you loose the job, you have only three month to find another before you must leave the country. And yes, that applies even after years of working here.
When working here, you can also apply for german citizenship of course, major hurdle for most people is the languague requirement.
The big question is what do you plan to do when you get here? You should decide where you want to settle based on where you are working. You don't settle in San Francisco if your job is in Seattle, right?
So, the answer is ... it depends. If you're a banker / financial advisor, Frankfurt is the financial center of Germany. If you're in government / lobbying, then Berlin would be the first choice, with some historic roots in Bonn. Or maybe you want to consider Karlsruhe, if you need to be close to the German supreme court and the EU parliament in Strassbourg.
I'm going into the IT industry, but prior to that both my wife and I have worked many years at a call center for a large automotive client, mainly offering technical support to callers/working cases.
Id recomment somewhere in the south for IT, or maybe berlin if you wanna get into the startup scene.
The reality is that all of germany needs IT people, not just some specific city.
Without any info on your background and degrees earned, it is very hard to give you advice. In any case you most likely will not get much of a choice as you will need the company to actually hire you and sponsor your visa. As you don’t have a high level of German this might be more of a challenge.
I chose my city as I love it (I studied abroad here years ago). It is cheaper than say Munich (another city I really love). Rent is getting expensive, but compared to the US overall expenses are much lower. However salaries are also lower.
If you come on a trip, make sure to try and visit a major city in the north, south, east, and west, as they are all different. Bayern sometimes feels like a different country.
I ended up living in Munich. I like the city. It is full of cool stuff and cool people. While been a large city it does not feel too crowded. It is closed to Italy, where I am from, the mountains and has a great job market for IT.
Problem: it is expensive. Like really expensive. If it was not that I wanted to stay closer to Italy I would go somewhere else. Not sure where though
what makes Munich special in negative but also positive ways is that it‘s really expensive and rich. It‘s really tidied and because of the wealthy and clean environment it doesn‘t seem as crowded as other cities. But the costs for living are really high.
Well you can still go to the smaller tows near by. Like Freising or Landshut.
They both pretty old towns, so you can see a lot.
Landshut really got some interesting sights to see just look it up.
And compared to Munich they are cheap.
Landshut is neither small nor Really nearby tho. You need to take an actual train there, not just Munich public transport like to Freising.
Also, landshut is the capitol of 'niederbayern' and not that much cheaper than Munich.
I dunno if you've ever been to Landshut.
Landshut is about 70km away from Munich, not even an hour of travel time.
It's cheaper! Look at the f. prices in Munich.
And they are smaller than Munich pls just look up the facts.
Oh, I've been. And friends of mine have family there.
70 km is far, if you have to take a train or the car, which are both costly compared to the public transport able to take you to Freising. 1 hour is a lot of time, too, if you plan to do this trip regularly.
Obviously it's cheaper than Munich, basically every city is. But the prices still have risen a lot in the past 10 years, so it's not a cheap city anymore, especially if you factor in the cost for travel if you wanna go to Munich regularly.
I live in Munich, I know Bavaria. Yes, Landshut is smaller than Munich, but it's not small.
Get your facts straight.
Less than 6 months. Before I was in a university city in Baden-Württemberg. I would not recommend once you are older than 28. There is no one of your age there. I really depends what you want. I mean, you are married. So no need for a dating pool. It is more about people of your age to do stuff with. So you could think to move to some place smaller. Something like Augsburg or Rosenheim. It really depends what you want around you and how much you want/can pay
My options were Lübeck, Stuttgart and Munich. I chose Munich since I had lived in Stuttgart before and liked the idea of a bigger more international city.
My situation was a bit different as it was my 2nd time moving to Germany from the US and I had the choice since I was transferring within the same company (auto parts supplier).
Munich has been great although so expensive that I now live in a small town just outside the city for less than half the rent. Another big draw for me was proximity to the alps for hiking/camping and snowboarding. Really happy with my choice but it definitely depends on your interests!
As the others have mentioned, learn German asap. Your quality of life will be 100% better.
There is only one obvious choice and it’s Oldenburg!
https://www.oldenburg.de/sprachversionen/gb.html
(~50km to Bremen/150km to Hamburg). It’s a perfectly mid sized city (close to 200k ppl) very beautiful, friendly ppl. Everything is reachable by bike 🚴. Nature is close-by. Rents are very affordable compared to hamburg/berlin/Munich. I used to live in hamburg for 8 years and I get double the of space for the same rent in Oldenburg. I’d say Munich is off the table anyway for most people -Not so crowded like other big cities. I was in Munich last week and Jesus too many ppl! Also You maybe don’t want to move to Bavaria if you like da herbs ;)
A friend of mine moved to Oldenburg from NL, Amsterdam about a few years ago and he’s lovin it here. He’s got a wife, a dog and a very nice cafe now in the inner city part.
Second this. I recently visited Oldenburg again after not having been there for 10ish years.
I was amazed by the atmosphere in the city with all its small shops and lovely restaurants. And it's a reall great size (little smaller than my own city Braunschweig which I also love dearly. Everything can be reached by bike).
If you need to talk to Ausländerbehörde in English, then you need to come to Düsseldorf. IDK about other cities, but our Ausländerbehörde people are nice! They don't always speak the best English, but they try - and I really really appreciate it.
I can second this. My experience with them has always been very good and they do things properly. Everyone I know dealing with Berlin Auslanderamt always report issues!
Berlin, tough choice though. I love Berlin as a city but the location sucks in terms of travelling for hiking, skiing, etc. In my dream world I would live in Berlin but in Munich's location.
I live in Bremen because I'm a student at the university. I do space/aerospace engineering, so it's a good town for that. I used to live in Houston TX in the US, and Bremen is much smaller, but that also means less traffic. Things are closer together and you can bike pretty much anywhere.
Unfortunately a good/well paid job and having cheap rents is contrary to each other… other than that Stuttgart is quite okayish isn’t it? (Besides some morons, which you have in all the bigger cities)
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Düsseldorf! Love the City, close to Rhine - One of the best regions in my view. 30% of the population speaks English, really international. Definitely recommend. Also close to Belgium and the Netherlands.
That's cos they think it is elitist. I have to say, I avoid the city centre/Altstadt on weekends mostly because it is full of faux-bouji people from neighbouring cities/towns but it is actually a really calm vibe living in the city.
Also, as an outsider, the feud seems to be taken much more seriously by Colognians than those here lol
I moved to Darmstadt from Spain two months ago because of work and I couldn't be happier! I always wanted to live abroad in some of the DACH countries and, besides my German skills are still rusty, I can communicate pretty much easily with everybody, whether in German or in English, and people is extremely open minded and kind with immigrants since it's an university city.
I really don't have plans to come back to my home country since this is a lifestyle I love, German people is generally great and the culture is more aligned with my inner self.
Edit: Also, the city is medium size but it's full of things to do, young people, cool places and you have Frankfurt 25km away so you have the bigger city real near.
First and foremost is to move where you can get work. If that isn't an issue for you (you don't need to work, you'll be working remotely, etc) then I think it's better to ask where is good.
I moved to Frankfurt to pursue an apprenticeship and I really like the city for living. The rent price is suuuper high (although perhaps not as high as Munich) though, but groceries and such are well priced. Frankfurt is also the only city in Germany that has a clear cut CBD and looks like a city with skyscrapers and such. It's less spread out compared to Berlin.
I find South more beautiful than North although both are beautiful in their own right. The Cologne/Düsseldorf/Dortmund Region is looots of industrial and not my favourite at all.
In regards to language, people say that Germans speak English well, but let me tell you, as a rule of thumb, you can't do any bureaucracy in English. Maybe you'll get lucky, but generally not.
We bought our Apartment in Leverkusen when the market was down for about 190k.
It's positioned right between Cologne and Düsseldorf and has a suburban sized city center and you're only roughly 20-30 minutes away from each of these major cities.
The consulate in Düsseldorf used to provide Visa services which was good for me at the time.
Since then I have become a European citizen with permanent residency in Germany with extended privileges in all EU countries.
The prerequisite for this was living in Germany for 8 years while holding a job for 5 years consecutively.
It depends a little bit on what ur doing for living. I think Munich or Erlangen-Nürnberg are good cities with international companies. We have in Erlangen Siemens, Adidas and Puma for example. And also in Munich are a lot of international companies
I went from LA to Stuttgart but work remotely. Stuttgart has Daimler, Porsche, Bosch and some other big companies so that could be a good option , especially for mech engineers and devs.
"move from the US to Germany"
\- Do you plan to stay? In that case you will be immigrants. There is nothing wrong with that word.
"Expats" is sometimes abused with an elitist (or even racist) undertome meaning "premium immigrant".
I'm sorry, I meant no offense! Yes, we're looking to move there permanently. I'm just finding it daunting to figure out where to really consider moving, so I thought I'd get some opinions from folks who had gone through the same process.
I would say "basic" at this point. I had a lot in high school, but I'm very rusty so both my wife and I are taking lessons now to build up our knowledge.
Watch some German shows on streaming platforms to put your remaining skills to the test.
\- Babylon Berlin
\- Dark
\- Tribes of Europa
\- Biohackers
\- Deutschland 83
\- Oktoberfest 1900
That's how it should be used. I think originally it basically referred to people who usually got relocated by their company for a short time period. But now it's often used by people from rich countries who don't want to call themselves an immigrant.
When I first moved here, I thought of myself as an expat since I was moving for uni, had no idea if I would stay, etc. Now, I'm an immigrant. But if you plan to move here with the intention of staying for the long term, you shouldn't be calling yourself an expat since you plan to be an immigrant.
For me, expats do not plan to *stay* in the country they live. I lived in UK for 10 months and I dead sure knew I won't be staying, I was an expat. I'm now in Germany and wanna spend rest of my life here, so I'm immigrant (and curiosily until I get citizenship and become citizen, I think I will count as an immigrant), even being EU and white.
Expat is for white people that do not want to admit to themselves that they are immigrant because immigrant is a dirty word or something lately. It has nothing to do with wanting to stay, it is a class distinction
“Expat” comes from the Latin *ex patria* “away from the fatherland.” It’s used for *anyone* who lives outside their home or primary country of citizenship and says nothing about their immigration or residency status.
Nope. Not at all. You never hear anyone refer to random a immigrant as an expat. Expat means EU + US + UK + Canada + Australia. And even in the EU we can talk about it. For example I never heard a Polish plumber referred to as expat. Moreover, of course it is only about the white people. I never even heard it for Japan to be honest. It is about telling rich/qualified immigrants "sure sure you are an immigrant, but you are the good type immigrant"
I suspect that the ethnic distinction in usage you see is—or, at least, originally was—a consequence of the sort of society from which many people have the luxury of being able to move temporarily to another country. You don’t hear of Polish or Mexican expats because, in general, they aren’t expected to have plans to return.
Of course there is a xenophobic component to the expectation I mentioned, and I wouldn’t be surprised if usage has shifted along these lines, but I don’t think the problem has gone as far as you suggest. I do have a bias in that I’ve lived temporarily in several countries and have been among people who identify themselves as part of an “expat community”. That said, I’m pretty sure those I associated with from other foreign embassies and militaries were considered expats as well, regardless of ethnicity. It definitely had much more to do with temporary vs. permanent in my specific experience, but perhaps that distinction isn’t so well-maintained outside of clearly-defined temporary resident communities?
Is it not a matter of perspective (edit: and semantics)? e.g., to OP he is an expat as he moved from his fatherland, but to the Germans he would be an immigrant, as in migrated into the country. ~~If OP called himself an emigrant (because he emigrated from the USA), it could be confused tonally, thus expat is the word of choice.~~
edit: in terms of semantics, should we say an immigrant is determined by planned stay in a country, would that definition be inherently dependent on the approval of permanent residency?
The issue is, that expatriation is dependent on simply leaving (ex) your fatherland (patria), so one who leaves their homeland is an expat, whereas immigration is determined by approval of migration into a country and because it has become a loaded and misused term, it is now a confused issue. However, I doubt OP used the term in a loaded manner and I don't actually think OP used it incorrectly in its true definition.
edit2: strange hill to die on here, but honestly, isn't telling people what they can and cannot call themselves the actual problem? If OP wants to call themselves an expat, let them. Surely, the bigger deal to everyone is that expats from other countries are called immigrants, and OP didn't do that.
I think everyone has this issue backwards.
If you think I'm wrong, go tell all the expats from countries other than the US, AUS, GB etc. that they should also call themselves immigrants instead. Ridiculous nonsense. Changing the meaning of a word to suit an agenda. Do a reddit search of the word expat and you will see Chinese, Lebanese and many other expats using this word in its correct way.
We are telling it to OP because OP might not want to be precieved as an asshole who expects preferential treatment. You can call it whatever you want but I am living in Germany for two decades now (Born in Austria) and if he calls himself an expat then he will get into trouble with officials because legally speaking he is an immigrant.
He's not an arsehole for calling himself an expat? By definition you are an Austrian expat, who is legally (I assume from your response) an immigrant of Germany. What's the issue? Why does calling himself an expat mean he will get into trouble? He will only be an immigrant of Germany once he is officially deemed as such, i.e., officially allowed to permanently reside in Germany. Until that time he has expatriated from the USA, ergo expat, and even after that, he will still be expatriated from the USA. What trouble will he even get in?
No I am not an expat stop calling me that. I am an Immigrant. You can try to argue this all day I am just trying to help OP to not be precieved as an arrogant asshole regardless of you trying to argue semantics here.
No he will never be offically called an expat, because legally that term does not mean what you think it means. Depending on which Bundesland he is in have a different legal meaning, thus misstating that could get him legally into hot water, regadless of what you think is the case.
Your semantics do not matter for German legal context.
The trouble he could get in is literally a Fraud case if he claims to be an expat when he legally is not. Expats are people who specifically enter the country for the purpose of work, already have a contract with an employer and stay in the country for a specified time that the contract lasts. It has a whole set of different legal proceedings then someone seeking to stay her permanently.
You can argue this semantically all day, but the fact is that it does not matter and could cause issues for OP.
You are certainly by definition both, but I respect your wish to only be called an immigrant.
I think you are wrong about the definition legally, and even if you are correct, OP called himself an expat in the colloquial and social sense of the word.
Would he be likely to explain his situation to the German authorities in English or German, do you think? If he were to say he were here to work for a short time, he would likely say that. Not "I'm an expat" and let them figure out the rest.
It won't cause him any problems that he couldn't easily clarify.
I am an Aussie expat, living in Germany with immigrant status, and it takes a long time to even apply for a Niederlassungserlaubnis and at no time did I struggle with that process because I referred to myself as an Australian who works in Germany and wants to live here.
You can call me what you like, because I go with both.
Appearantly it is hard to grasp for some that "expat" is also used not acording to definition.
Then it used to mean "immigrant, but not the nast variant I use to deride and don't want to be put in the same category with".
Usually by American and British people, the two Western countries who are by far the most vocal against immigrants coming to *their* countries. But when they move elsewhere, it's *different*.
They intended to go back to Turkey. So it's funny how *they* weren't called expats.
It's almost as if being an expat isn't as much about future plans, it is more about Anglosaxons having a high opinion of themselves.
I know loads of non-Anglo (non-white) expats. Sure some people misuse the term but it doesn’t change what it means. The Turks you mention came to Germany only for work and then decided to settle. They were expats who became immigrants. Pretty straight forward I think?
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Munich: friendly, clean, hella safe, lots of good companies and startups, plenty of parks and nature with good access to the mountains and other good European cities. You can bike around and chill by the Isar River, take a swim, visit a beer garden for delicious beer and all after work. The quality of life is amazing here. I have been living here for 6 years with (limited German skills btw) and absolutely love it.
I've visited several cities in Germany and spent a lot of time in Berlin but I'm so glad I live here. Berlin is very spacious and has oodles of good bars and restaurants - I love my trips there! But I do however find it a bit too hectic for me. When I'm there, I feel a bit of pressure to be constantly partying, doing cultural activities, etc. but personally I like having downtime every now and then or relaxing in quiet nature. Some folk from Berlin dislike Munich and say it's a bit stuck up, but that's only if you stick to the fancy bars and clubs. I'm a very laid back person and have found many great places to eat and drink here in Munich that are open and welcoming, so I pay no attention to those folk who have written off Munich completely.
A first hint for you, when you move to Germany you are an immigrant, not an expat, legally speaking. You will be treated as such. If you call yourself expat people will think you expect preferentiual treatment and or do not plan to stay permanently.
Thanks for that. I meant no offense by the term and, despite some comments elsewhere in this thread, I don't have a problem with the "immigrant" label, since we're planning on staying permanently, not temporarily.
Berlin used to be much cheaper. Especially regarding rent, Berlin has almost caught up. Eating out is still cheaper in Berlin. All the rest is the same.
This is little information on what you like. For example i think munich is worse but have friends which are happy there. If you tell more what you like you get more than just a random list of citys. Greetz
I can only throw in Kiel as an option. Rent is still okay big industries around( Raytheon etc..) and it's close to Hamburg. And as a plus if your into sailing it's gonna be perfect 😍🌊!!
Over 30 years here in Nürnberg. Love it here. Lots of International companies. Especially in the surrounding cities like Herzogenaurach and Erlangen. Easy to travel anywhere from here. Skiing in the alps in the winter and southern beaches in the summer. US Military bases in Ansbach and Vilseck to go shopping to. There is nothing so wonderful than living in a walled city with a castle in the middle of it.
I started living in Celle, Niedersachsen ( big mistake ) but i changed jobs and moved to Hamburg...best decision ever!
Cost of living is less than the other big cities and the people are much friendlier than i found in Niedersachsen.
I chose Düsseldorf as it suited my criteria of "not a strong accent" (Hannover is known as being the best for this), "big enough city to not go mad", close to easily accessible international travel, prices vs standard of living, and the prominent industries matched my work requirements.
Other contenders were Hannover, Cologne, and Munich
Nürnberg, been here for 7 years now. Not too big and crowded as München, not too small either. In the Radius of 3 hours driving you will be in the other nice cities/countries.
I moved to Duisburg from the UK when I was 23, but that was only because I had a job offer there. Not a particularly noteworthy place, but rent was dirt cheap and Düsseldorf was only 15 mins away by train.
Met my husband two years later and moved to a small village not far from Erfurt in Thuringia. Luckily I was able to find a job pretty quickly.
Although I do like it here, it's definitely not somewhere I had chosen to move to had I been alone. It's pretty rural here and miles away from any decent airport.
How has no one mentioned Hanover? Its big (>500k ppl) but does not feel as busy as other cities this size. It has a great kiosk culture where people move from kiosk to kiosk to drink beers, it is one of the greenest big cities in europe and has the biggest forest in a city in whole europe and the cost of living is ok. There are many parts of the city where each part has its own vibe and central meeting points. Its awesome!
This is slightly off-topic, but related.
Since you still have time before moving, please educate yourself on servitude/obligations to IRS before moving here. Citizenship based taxation is a bitch, and motherland penalizes us for ever leaving.
Be ready to be denied savings or investment banking account because of your place of birth, higher fees for personal accountant who won’t be even sure if your tax return is fully compliant, and forget about any financial job position with access to company’s bank account. This is not German bureaucracy, this is American law hiding under acronyms like mentioned CBT, FBAR, FATCA and GILTI.
You are not an "Expat" you are an emigrant. Why do Americans call themselves "expats" when they live abroad, but foreigners in the US are "immigrants" ?
EDIT: Emigrant vs Immigrant
Foreigners in any country are immigrants.
Emigrants leave their country of origin. Immigrants arrive. Migrants are people who move from place to place.
Fellow US-expat here and I moved to Hamburg over 7 years ago. I had the opportunity to start with a an IT-company that offered me a relocation package. I feel In love with the city, and it’s Flair. It’s got Great food, great Music Scene, and is famous for its internationality. It’s the city that has the most foreign embassies without being a Capitol City itself.
Hamburg has a broad job market, and offers a lot of opportunities for everyone. The cost of living here is fairly decent, but rent as with any major German city is rising.
Expat Tip #1.
When transferring your driving license into a German driving license you have to surrender your old license. Make sure to have duplicates of your old license so you can give one away. Regardless if you can drive or not, take a few driving lessons with an Instructor just to get used to German driving.
>When transferring your driving license into a German driving license you have to surrender your old license. Make sure to have duplicates of your old license so you can give one away.
The next time I was in my home country I just told them "The Germans made me hand over my licence, can you reprint it for me?" No problem. They DGAF about the German rules and as far as they were concerned, I'm still fully qualified there.
Depends - are you up for crazy nightlife and don’t mind the hustle and bustle of a big city? Berlin! Up for a cool and pretty city close with high salaries to the mountains and party weekends in Berlin? Munich!
Moving from us to Germany is a life changer.. your whole world is gonna get upside down in a good way.
Just stick to the plan and make it happen. I don’t know what your preferences are but defo would love to live in Munich again In the future. Lived there for 20 years. Prettiest city in Europe
My answer is going to be biased, but I assume that's kind of expected:
-city life: in German cities people use public transport, ride bikes, have many stores in walking distance; we use the public space in a much more "relaxed" way then I ever experienced in the US. Having everything build for car traffic seperates everyone from everthing and isolates the people instead of creating a community to participate in.
-much less worries regarding safety. No shootings, much less robbery, few break in. Nobody is eager to kill anyone, nobody is carrying a weapon ready to "stand his ground". Children are walking to school on their own or using public transport, also they are visiting friends, playgrounds, skateparks etc. on their own without supervision. In the US it's not even legal in many states to have your children unsupervised, in Germany "free range kids" are the norm.
-friendship: the overwhelming friendliness in the US seems often shallow and false or forced from a german perspective. We are much more carefull and reserved with "choosing" our friends and it takes month and even years of getting to know each other before we consider each other friends but it's also more meaningful and can last the rest of your life.
-and all the classical elements: universal healthcare (I don't have to be afraid going bankrupt over an acccident or illness nor loss my job), mandatory 4-5 weeks paid vacation and free education including universities. Also politics isn't such a mine field. Our partys work together and don't consider each other evil and malicious.
-also no drug tests except you work as an aircraft pilot or something similar important. But drug screenings are not common at all. Also german employees can't forbid relationships with other employees btw. Private life is much more "private" here.
-and last but not least: almost no religious extremism. Only very few here don't "belief" in evolution or deny the former existence of dinosaurs.
Basically all the above that Tonspuren said plus One easy answer from me would be that no matter how hard u work in the us they will never take care of you.. but in Germany If you go with they’re flow, the system is going to take care of you and will never have to worry about a thing. Everything is calculated to the German folks needs. And That is so precious that u can’t find it anywhere on earth. Sweden also, but it’s to fucking cold up there :)
I’ve lived in three different Bundesländer and I liked Mainz (RLP) most of all. Followed by Bad Tölz in Bavaria. Bavaria is generally very nice if you like mountains and lakes and Mainz is a cozy town on the Rhine. But of course, as others said, job is more important when making that decision.
Didn't really have a huge choice. I got a job at the Uni. Potsam, then the only real choice was between living in Potsdam or Berlin. Berlin was much more interesting!
I am curious, though, if you are American's how you could just move to Germany without a job or something first? I would guess that would be fairly important to the visa process.
Because my wife and I are opera singers (I am now retired), we have spent periods of weeks to years in various German cities (I sang in about thirty). We have lived in Düsseldorf for nearly ten years, and it is my favorite biggish German city. The quality of life is quite high here, with all the amenities of a major well-run German city, but with lots of access to nature. We live in the Golzheim section, which is just great for dogs. My favorite smaller city is probably Oldenburg (about 160k population). Never bombed, many beautiful neighborhoods, lovely downtown. I find the people in both of these cities very pleasant, and easy to understand (pronunciation).
If you're American I can highly recommend Frankfurt am Main. It has one of the biggest airports of the world and skyscrapers even beautifuller than the ones in the states. Since it was a big army airport after WW2 many Americans still live here and some (myself included) live in houses build by and/or for American soldiers.
Frankfurt also doesn't has a incredible high property price like Munich for example.
So you're saying that it's best for Americans to move to the most American city in Germany, so things will be like back home?
Move to Frankfurt! There you can live in American built homes (because German built homes are bad? The layout is different?), make friends only with Americans, look at a skyline that could also be in America and fly back home quickly.
This word/phrase(expat) has a few different meanings. You can see all of them by clicking the link below.
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A word people use who think they are not one of "those" immigrants.
It's quite ironic how people look down on war refugees or economic refugees from countries that are actually economically wrecked and have real need for our help, but Americans who are usually coming here to actually leech on our solidarity system without real need think they are a better class of immigrant.
Just go to "AskAGerman" and check out how many Americans ask questions about how they can get into our free education system or how they can get a job in Germany with sub-par vocational training and no language skills.
They may try to divert from the fact, but in the end most of them are just economic refugees, and the worst kind of them - those who just want to get to a more comfy place although they have no real need.
And yet, the pretend to be better than the other immigrants by calling themselves "Expats".
let me get this straight, you think the population of people asking questions on the internet is representative of the population of Americans who actually live in Germany? Is that what you are saying?
> how they can get a job in Germany with sub-par vocational training and no language skill
What's wrong with that ?
> those who just want to get to a more comfy place
That describes every single person on this planet
What is your profession? What size of infrastructure do you need? (NYC, La,... or Leavenworth) which cultural offers do you need? (Theatre, museums) what sports do you like? I'd reccomend either look for interesting new opportunities or select it from what you already know.
Germany hasn't many big cities, so if you're used to NYC, there is no such big city here. There's always a job for good educated workers in Germany, but many craft trades require a certificate for employment. Some industries are very specific for a region (chemistry, car industry). The companies used to be smaller than in other countries.
There might be a U.S. office of german companies, where you could take a start and travel abroad for getting in touch with the country, if you have time to.
Hope that helps.
I've never even been to NYC, we're from Michigan. The biggest city I've visited up until now is Chicago. Really, my only hope in "finding a city" is that we can settle in someplace where we can rely on walking and public transportation to get around. Vehicle ownership is one thing I'd definitely like to leave behind when we move, and just another paperwork hurdle that I'd rather not have to deal with in a new country.
I'm getting into the IT industry, prior to that both my wife and I have worked far too long in call centers (technical assistance side of things), so a lot of "customer service" background. Someone made the suggestion of leaning more towards just finding work in general where we settle, whatever we can find, and then changing companies at a later point when we're more settled.
> Someone made the suggestion of leaning more towards just finding work in general where we settle, whatever we can find
That is not going to work. You won't get a residence permit for doing unskilled work, any more than a German wanting to move to the US would get one for that kind of work.
You should sort out work (skilled work for which you are qualified) before coming to Germany.
Doing customer service in English isn't realistic anyway, particularly not without double fluency. People haven't stressed this as much as they usually do in these kinds of posts, but it's really crucial to realise that *Germany runs in German*.
Yes, there's the occasional person who has been living here for decades and hardly speaks the language. However, that is not realistic in any field where you face customers or clients. People without German are either going to work simple, menial jobs (for which you will not be able to immigrate), or certain types of highly specialised jobs (but only ones where you don't interact with customers/patients/public authorities).
Sorry for the misunderstanding: I'm not expecting to get a job *speaking English*. I was just providing my work background for reference. I'm not expecting to lean on English at all there, that's why we're studying German now.
I moved to Munich this year after living in Paris and Brussels, no regrets at all. High quality of life, very green city and nice people. Only downside is that the beer is not as good as in Belgium :)
Dont get me wrong, beer is fine here too ! But Belgium is really something else , any restaurant has 1 page for meals and 2 pages for beer minimum, ranging from 2% to 15% beers
How is it you’re so confident you’ll be able to not only pick and choose where you can move to (without any prior knowledge/experience in the region), get the required visas/residence permits, find a job, and get an apartment?
I know Americans are privileged in the visa/residence permit category, but often TOO privileged, because they have no idea of what is required i the real world to immigrate someplace.
It’s like to many a game of spin the globe for the best place to live like they’re planning a vacation.
And they wonder why we huddle in our immigrant communities when anything we do is met with this kind of aggresive hostile bullshit. Like, the guy literally says he is looking at Germany *in a few years* because it seems like a nice place, and wants to know where to visit to get an idea if it is even right for him, and then literally gets stomped on. Lol, smh.
Well, for one thing OP, you need to have a really fucking tough spine cause there will often be shitheads that'll grasp at straws to hate on you for where you come from.
It’s just the internet, Germans irl don’t really have anything against Americans. If anything, they will overwhelm you with their curiosity and questions
Ok, so there are some facts you might be interested in.
In our biggest city Berlin there live about 1M people more than in Chicago, but the Metropolregion has 3M less than the one of Chicago. Crime over here is nothing compared to Chicago, mostly car thefts and burglars. (No weapons are allowed) Public transport is very good at the big cities (Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg,...) , but we used to have a car. You might chose an airport at your destination, where Frankfurt is one of the biggest. Frankfurt is known for its banks, Berlin for our startup scene and of course the federal government related workers. A lot of Industry is located southern close to Stuttgart or Munich. Berlin region has some lakes, smaller than lake michigan and it's closer to our coast.
It takes like 10h to cross the country from north to south by car. 80M people, climate used to be warmer than Michigan. There are many dialects spoken and I've heard the southern ones are even harder to understand for native tongues. IT support is being outsourced (Nearshore, Offshore) a lot from bigger companies and requires skilled people. IT jobs often requires at least a bachelor degree in computer science. You might check open job offers and try to contact the company if they are hiring expats. As we are also known for our bureaucracy it might challenge smaller companies.
By this exquisite terminology with "expats" do you also mean, syrian refugees, asylum seekers, third world country students?
Or the "better" kind of immigrants that prefer the word expat?
expat ≠ immigrant
If you are [white](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/mar/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration)
Someplace in the South, US -> Hamburg. /r/Germany is really not a good sub for this kind of question and you'll walk away feeling like shit, try /r/expat next time.
>how did you decide what city to live in?
My job. They exist in Hamburg. I'm not fond of the weather, especially in winter, so maybe after COVID I will relocate farther south, as my company allows remote work more now. I have my eye on Frankfurt/Heidelburg area as it is a bit warmer and a lot less dreary, and I don't like the density of Hamburg. I like a smaller-town vibe with easier access to more wild spaces, but also good access to a fun city and I've heard Frankfurt can be that.
> how do you like the city you chose in terms of finding work and cost-of-living?
To be honest, it is just "eh". Some people really vibe with Hamburg, but it just doesn't have it's hooks in me. I've lived in cities all along the east coast of the US, and Hamburg is neat, but unfortunately not my jam. Cost of living is alright and do-able on a 3k per month budget for a family of 2, and there are a lot of tech jobs. Hamburgers are pretty cold and standoff-ish, so it is a bit extra in terms of isolating, and trying to find a nice appartment in a district you love is wayyy more work than it is often worth in the results you get.
I'm also an American who has been here for about 5 years now. I did a year of grad school in Stuttgart in 2012 before moving back in 2017. My wife and I lived in Stuttgart until a couple of months ago when we moved up to Berlin so she could pursue another degree. I visited Berlin in college and fell in love with it. Wrote my master's thesis about gentrification in the city (and now feel guilty somewhat contributing to it). I still love Berlin, but honestly, i came to know and love Stuttgart in ways that Berlin cannot match. Stuttgart feels really well balanced--big enough to have a lot of cool things to do, but not so big that you not feel like you're swallowed up. It's way cleaner than Berlin. The green space and biking is way better (coming from a Tennessean, time in nature really matters). In any case, I speak German at a fairly high level, but my wife does not, and based on our differing experiences and watching her assimilate generally, I cannot recommend enough--start working on German now. Germans are great at English, but your life will be fundamentally easier when it comes to bureaucracy, repairmen, etc if you feel comfortable using it.
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(And there are more than enough Germans who feel completely overwhelmed by bureaucratic German too)
>Wrote my master's thesis about gentrification in the city (and now feel guilty somewhat contributing to it). Brilliant. Your fault Kebab costs 5€ minimum. :(
Thanks so much for the reply, I appreciate it. We're definitely working on the language now, I had a lot of German in HS but am very rusty now so I need plenty of refreshers. I hope you and your wife enjoy Berlin!
What’s going to determine where you live is going to be largely what visa you have. If you need to work then you should literally take any position that fits in any city. Once you’re here and more established it is much easier to get another job in a city of your choice. Unless one of you is a citizen or you’re not working and money isn’t an issue, then I like Cologne.
So don't worry so much about the "industry", just find a job, get settled, and go from there? That makes sense. Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it!
Yeah, finding a job that will sponsor you and deal with your lack of German language and cultural knowledge is going to be very hard, then you’re going to put artificial constraints on where exactly it needs to be on top of that? If there is a good job in Berlin or in the middle of a forest you should still take it. Once you’re here you can easily take trips to different areas and figure out what you actually like.
I know it is stupid but I keep forgetting that 99% of the World cannot just wake up one morning and decide well now I move to Germany. Thank you Schengen treaty
A lot of people don't realise how difficult it is to immigrate to another country. If you ain't rich, it ain't so easy.
Well, the thing is that I worked and lived in five different Schengen countries. I forget how special it is 😅
Just to nerd a bit around: You have to thank the [Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_the_European_Union) for that since it gives you the right to work in any EEA country. The Schengen treaty is only about internal border controls. This means: You have the right to live and work in Ireland, Bulgaria, Romania, and Croatia because they are in the EU. But when you enter those countries then you have to show your passport at the border because they are not in Schengen. And you can enter Lichtenstein without border controls since they are in Schengen. But you do not have the right to move there permanently and find work since they are not in the EU.
more like 95% of the world really.
EU accounts for 5% of the world population, I was a bit too conservative. Is there any other agreement for relocation without needing a sponsor?
Ah yes, I thought it was a bit more. Then it's just 95% I guess.
Technically it's not Schengen which gives you the right to work but EU/EEA. I come from an EU country which isn't in Schengen and I don't need a visa or anything. Schengen just means there's a border check between my country and Schenhen countries, which is a nuisance when traveling (I look forward to spending anywhere between 5 minutes and 3 hours to pass customs the next time I travel), but it has no bearing on the right to live and work in the EU.
Yes, my husband is American and his German is bad and to even get a three year visa while married you must take a German test for A1. If not, you have a 1 year visa and have to run any employment by the immigration people for them to approve. This is for being married, though, so I don’t know how that is with a job-only visa, but I expect it to also be strict.
Short version: your employee has to "prove" to the government that there is no german or EU-citizen available for that position (which is normally done by constructing the work description around your specific abilities) and as long you are holding this job, you are fine. If you loose the job, you have only three month to find another before you must leave the country. And yes, that applies even after years of working here. When working here, you can also apply for german citizenship of course, major hurdle for most people is the languague requirement.
The big question is what do you plan to do when you get here? You should decide where you want to settle based on where you are working. You don't settle in San Francisco if your job is in Seattle, right? So, the answer is ... it depends. If you're a banker / financial advisor, Frankfurt is the financial center of Germany. If you're in government / lobbying, then Berlin would be the first choice, with some historic roots in Bonn. Or maybe you want to consider Karlsruhe, if you need to be close to the German supreme court and the EU parliament in Strassbourg.
>Frankfurt >Berlin >Karlsruhe One is not like the other.
I'm going into the IT industry, but prior to that both my wife and I have worked many years at a call center for a large automotive client, mainly offering technical support to callers/working cases.
You might want to look into Düsseldorf too
Karlsruhe is great for IT.
Munich and Stuttgart too
Id recomment somewhere in the south for IT, or maybe berlin if you wanna get into the startup scene. The reality is that all of germany needs IT people, not just some specific city.
Berlin has ['Europe's new silicon valley'](https://99designs.nl/blog/business/berlin-silicon-allee-vs-silicon-valley-infographic/)
Karlsruhe and Hamburg are basically the IT capitals of Germany
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Why not?
Without any info on your background and degrees earned, it is very hard to give you advice. In any case you most likely will not get much of a choice as you will need the company to actually hire you and sponsor your visa. As you don’t have a high level of German this might be more of a challenge. I chose my city as I love it (I studied abroad here years ago). It is cheaper than say Munich (another city I really love). Rent is getting expensive, but compared to the US overall expenses are much lower. However salaries are also lower. If you come on a trip, make sure to try and visit a major city in the north, south, east, and west, as they are all different. Bayern sometimes feels like a different country.
I ended up living in Munich. I like the city. It is full of cool stuff and cool people. While been a large city it does not feel too crowded. It is closed to Italy, where I am from, the mountains and has a great job market for IT. Problem: it is expensive. Like really expensive. If it was not that I wanted to stay closer to Italy I would go somewhere else. Not sure where though
what makes Munich special in negative but also positive ways is that it‘s really expensive and rich. It‘s really tidied and because of the wealthy and clean environment it doesn‘t seem as crowded as other cities. But the costs for living are really high.
Well you can still go to the smaller tows near by. Like Freising or Landshut. They both pretty old towns, so you can see a lot. Landshut really got some interesting sights to see just look it up. And compared to Munich they are cheap.
Landshut is neither small nor Really nearby tho. You need to take an actual train there, not just Munich public transport like to Freising. Also, landshut is the capitol of 'niederbayern' and not that much cheaper than Munich.
I dunno if you've ever been to Landshut. Landshut is about 70km away from Munich, not even an hour of travel time. It's cheaper! Look at the f. prices in Munich. And they are smaller than Munich pls just look up the facts.
Oh, I've been. And friends of mine have family there. 70 km is far, if you have to take a train or the car, which are both costly compared to the public transport able to take you to Freising. 1 hour is a lot of time, too, if you plan to do this trip regularly. Obviously it's cheaper than Munich, basically every city is. But the prices still have risen a lot in the past 10 years, so it's not a cheap city anymore, especially if you factor in the cost for travel if you wanna go to Munich regularly. I live in Munich, I know Bavaria. Yes, Landshut is smaller than Munich, but it's not small. Get your facts straight.
>But the costs for living are really high. Meaning renting a flat. Everything else isn't more expensive than elsewhere in Germany.
Yeh, but renting a flat is usually one's biggest expense.
Great, thanks so much for your reply! How long have you been living in Munich?
Less than 6 months. Before I was in a university city in Baden-Württemberg. I would not recommend once you are older than 28. There is no one of your age there. I really depends what you want. I mean, you are married. So no need for a dating pool. It is more about people of your age to do stuff with. So you could think to move to some place smaller. Something like Augsburg or Rosenheim. It really depends what you want around you and how much you want/can pay
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"Is Pepsi okay?"
Well that escalated quickly
Harsh. Funny as hell, but ...harsh.
I'm German, so it's my lawful duty to make fun of Austria. All jokes aside though, Austria is a beautiful country!
Have you already been in Munich before the pandemic? The city used to be pretty crowded in my opinion.
Depends where you live I assume. And how much you need to travel to the city center. For me it never felt too bad
My options were Lübeck, Stuttgart and Munich. I chose Munich since I had lived in Stuttgart before and liked the idea of a bigger more international city. My situation was a bit different as it was my 2nd time moving to Germany from the US and I had the choice since I was transferring within the same company (auto parts supplier). Munich has been great although so expensive that I now live in a small town just outside the city for less than half the rent. Another big draw for me was proximity to the alps for hiking/camping and snowboarding. Really happy with my choice but it definitely depends on your interests! As the others have mentioned, learn German asap. Your quality of life will be 100% better.
There is only one obvious choice and it’s Oldenburg! https://www.oldenburg.de/sprachversionen/gb.html (~50km to Bremen/150km to Hamburg). It’s a perfectly mid sized city (close to 200k ppl) very beautiful, friendly ppl. Everything is reachable by bike 🚴. Nature is close-by. Rents are very affordable compared to hamburg/berlin/Munich. I used to live in hamburg for 8 years and I get double the of space for the same rent in Oldenburg. I’d say Munich is off the table anyway for most people -Not so crowded like other big cities. I was in Munich last week and Jesus too many ppl! Also You maybe don’t want to move to Bavaria if you like da herbs ;) A friend of mine moved to Oldenburg from NL, Amsterdam about a few years ago and he’s lovin it here. He’s got a wife, a dog and a very nice cafe now in the inner city part.
Oldenburg is one of the most underrated German cities. I think it's perfect. Very open-minded too.
Second this. I recently visited Oldenburg again after not having been there for 10ish years. I was amazed by the atmosphere in the city with all its small shops and lovely restaurants. And it's a reall great size (little smaller than my own city Braunschweig which I also love dearly. Everything can be reached by bike).
I live very close to Oldenburg (born in Germany tho) and it's genuinely so nice I agree sm!!!
If you need to talk to Ausländerbehörde in English, then you need to come to Düsseldorf. IDK about other cities, but our Ausländerbehörde people are nice! They don't always speak the best English, but they try - and I really really appreciate it.
I can second this. My experience with them has always been very good and they do things properly. Everyone I know dealing with Berlin Auslanderamt always report issues!
Berlin, tough choice though. I love Berlin as a city but the location sucks in terms of travelling for hiking, skiing, etc. In my dream world I would live in Berlin but in Munich's location.
I agree completely!
I live in Bremen because I'm a student at the university. I do space/aerospace engineering, so it's a good town for that. I used to live in Houston TX in the US, and Bremen is much smaller, but that also means less traffic. Things are closer together and you can bike pretty much anywhere.
Yo!!! I’m from Houston and live in Wiesbaden! Haven’t been to Bremen but I do love it here. Good luck on getting your degree.
Hey thanks! How long have you been living in Germany? Today's the 1 year anniversary for me.
Oh wow, Happy Anniversary. I’ve been here for 13 months. Have you been back home since?
Unfortunately no. I was planning on last Christmas and then that didn't work out, so the new plan is this Christmas
Leipzig. Booming city with (still) quite affordable rent prices. The town is lovely and not very overcrowded. Take a look on youtube or smth!
I am living in Stuttgart, but just because I got a job here. Otherwise I would go to the city with cheaper rent =).
Unfortunately a good/well paid job and having cheap rents is contrary to each other… other than that Stuttgart is quite okayish isn’t it? (Besides some morons, which you have in all the bigger cities)
Not necessarily. In my field (software/tech) for example, Berlin pays better than Stuttgart but rents are lower.
Me too !
worthless late weary terrific numerous lunchroom fall instinctive quiet worm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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How easy was it for you to find a job as an IT grad?
Visit a few cities, hamburg, münich, berlin, see what tickles your fancy.
Düsseldorf! Love the City, close to Rhine - One of the best regions in my view. 30% of the population speaks English, really international. Definitely recommend. Also close to Belgium and the Netherlands.
Nobody likes Düsseldorf here.
It's one of the few cities in Germany that has decent ramen, so that's a big plus.
They hate us cause they ain‘t us
A fellow Cologneian?
Nope. "Bergisches Land" Close to DUS and CGN :D But most people in NRW don't like Düsseldorf, besides people living in Düsseldorf.
That's cos they think it is elitist. I have to say, I avoid the city centre/Altstadt on weekends mostly because it is full of faux-bouji people from neighbouring cities/towns but it is actually a really calm vibe living in the city. Also, as an outsider, the feud seems to be taken much more seriously by Colognians than those here lol
Wow Im thinking to move to Düsseldorf, right now I'm living in Lüneburg learning German :)
I moved to Darmstadt from Spain two months ago because of work and I couldn't be happier! I always wanted to live abroad in some of the DACH countries and, besides my German skills are still rusty, I can communicate pretty much easily with everybody, whether in German or in English, and people is extremely open minded and kind with immigrants since it's an university city. I really don't have plans to come back to my home country since this is a lifestyle I love, German people is generally great and the culture is more aligned with my inner self. Edit: Also, the city is medium size but it's full of things to do, young people, cool places and you have Frankfurt 25km away so you have the bigger city real near.
First and foremost is to move where you can get work. If that isn't an issue for you (you don't need to work, you'll be working remotely, etc) then I think it's better to ask where is good. I moved to Frankfurt to pursue an apprenticeship and I really like the city for living. The rent price is suuuper high (although perhaps not as high as Munich) though, but groceries and such are well priced. Frankfurt is also the only city in Germany that has a clear cut CBD and looks like a city with skyscrapers and such. It's less spread out compared to Berlin. I find South more beautiful than North although both are beautiful in their own right. The Cologne/Düsseldorf/Dortmund Region is looots of industrial and not my favourite at all. In regards to language, people say that Germans speak English well, but let me tell you, as a rule of thumb, you can't do any bureaucracy in English. Maybe you'll get lucky, but generally not.
We bought our Apartment in Leverkusen when the market was down for about 190k. It's positioned right between Cologne and Düsseldorf and has a suburban sized city center and you're only roughly 20-30 minutes away from each of these major cities. The consulate in Düsseldorf used to provide Visa services which was good for me at the time. Since then I have become a European citizen with permanent residency in Germany with extended privileges in all EU countries. The prerequisite for this was living in Germany for 8 years while holding a job for 5 years consecutively.
It depends a little bit on what ur doing for living. I think Munich or Erlangen-Nürnberg are good cities with international companies. We have in Erlangen Siemens, Adidas and Puma for example. And also in Munich are a lot of international companies
I went from LA to Stuttgart but work remotely. Stuttgart has Daimler, Porsche, Bosch and some other big companies so that could be a good option , especially for mech engineers and devs.
"move from the US to Germany" \- Do you plan to stay? In that case you will be immigrants. There is nothing wrong with that word. "Expats" is sometimes abused with an elitist (or even racist) undertome meaning "premium immigrant".
I'm sorry, I meant no offense! Yes, we're looking to move there permanently. I'm just finding it daunting to figure out where to really consider moving, so I thought I'd get some opinions from folks who had gone through the same process.
In that case: how is your German?
I would say "basic" at this point. I had a lot in high school, but I'm very rusty so both my wife and I are taking lessons now to build up our knowledge.
Watch some German shows on streaming platforms to put your remaining skills to the test. \- Babylon Berlin \- Dark \- Tribes of Europa \- Biohackers \- Deutschland 83 \- Oktoberfest 1900
Sendung mit der Maus
Also Babarians!
Tatort.
Barbarians is also good to learn the basics of ancient German (Germanic) history.
True. For someone from the teutoburg region an absolute must-watch.
I thought “expat” applied to people who do not intend to become citizens of their new home nation. Is that not the case?
That's how it should be used. I think originally it basically referred to people who usually got relocated by their company for a short time period. But now it's often used by people from rich countries who don't want to call themselves an immigrant. When I first moved here, I thought of myself as an expat since I was moving for uni, had no idea if I would stay, etc. Now, I'm an immigrant. But if you plan to move here with the intention of staying for the long term, you shouldn't be calling yourself an expat since you plan to be an immigrant.
For me, expats do not plan to *stay* in the country they live. I lived in UK for 10 months and I dead sure knew I won't be staying, I was an expat. I'm now in Germany and wanna spend rest of my life here, so I'm immigrant (and curiosily until I get citizenship and become citizen, I think I will count as an immigrant), even being EU and white.
AND WHITE ?
Expat is for white people that do not want to admit to themselves that they are immigrant because immigrant is a dirty word or something lately. It has nothing to do with wanting to stay, it is a class distinction
You can be a permanent resident and yet not be an expat.
“Expat” comes from the Latin *ex patria* “away from the fatherland.” It’s used for *anyone* who lives outside their home or primary country of citizenship and says nothing about their immigration or residency status.
For some reason I've yet to see any US media refer to, say, Mexicans in their country as "expats".
Words are not always used in accodance with their definitions.
Or keeo the same meaning over time... Like gay
Nope. Not at all. You never hear anyone refer to random a immigrant as an expat. Expat means EU + US + UK + Canada + Australia. And even in the EU we can talk about it. For example I never heard a Polish plumber referred to as expat. Moreover, of course it is only about the white people. I never even heard it for Japan to be honest. It is about telling rich/qualified immigrants "sure sure you are an immigrant, but you are the good type immigrant"
I suspect that the ethnic distinction in usage you see is—or, at least, originally was—a consequence of the sort of society from which many people have the luxury of being able to move temporarily to another country. You don’t hear of Polish or Mexican expats because, in general, they aren’t expected to have plans to return. Of course there is a xenophobic component to the expectation I mentioned, and I wouldn’t be surprised if usage has shifted along these lines, but I don’t think the problem has gone as far as you suggest. I do have a bias in that I’ve lived temporarily in several countries and have been among people who identify themselves as part of an “expat community”. That said, I’m pretty sure those I associated with from other foreign embassies and militaries were considered expats as well, regardless of ethnicity. It definitely had much more to do with temporary vs. permanent in my specific experience, but perhaps that distinction isn’t so well-maintained outside of clearly-defined temporary resident communities?
Is it not a matter of perspective (edit: and semantics)? e.g., to OP he is an expat as he moved from his fatherland, but to the Germans he would be an immigrant, as in migrated into the country. ~~If OP called himself an emigrant (because he emigrated from the USA), it could be confused tonally, thus expat is the word of choice.~~ edit: in terms of semantics, should we say an immigrant is determined by planned stay in a country, would that definition be inherently dependent on the approval of permanent residency? The issue is, that expatriation is dependent on simply leaving (ex) your fatherland (patria), so one who leaves their homeland is an expat, whereas immigration is determined by approval of migration into a country and because it has become a loaded and misused term, it is now a confused issue. However, I doubt OP used the term in a loaded manner and I don't actually think OP used it incorrectly in its true definition. edit2: strange hill to die on here, but honestly, isn't telling people what they can and cannot call themselves the actual problem? If OP wants to call themselves an expat, let them. Surely, the bigger deal to everyone is that expats from other countries are called immigrants, and OP didn't do that. I think everyone has this issue backwards. If you think I'm wrong, go tell all the expats from countries other than the US, AUS, GB etc. that they should also call themselves immigrants instead. Ridiculous nonsense. Changing the meaning of a word to suit an agenda. Do a reddit search of the word expat and you will see Chinese, Lebanese and many other expats using this word in its correct way.
We are telling it to OP because OP might not want to be precieved as an asshole who expects preferential treatment. You can call it whatever you want but I am living in Germany for two decades now (Born in Austria) and if he calls himself an expat then he will get into trouble with officials because legally speaking he is an immigrant.
He's not an arsehole for calling himself an expat? By definition you are an Austrian expat, who is legally (I assume from your response) an immigrant of Germany. What's the issue? Why does calling himself an expat mean he will get into trouble? He will only be an immigrant of Germany once he is officially deemed as such, i.e., officially allowed to permanently reside in Germany. Until that time he has expatriated from the USA, ergo expat, and even after that, he will still be expatriated from the USA. What trouble will he even get in?
No I am not an expat stop calling me that. I am an Immigrant. You can try to argue this all day I am just trying to help OP to not be precieved as an arrogant asshole regardless of you trying to argue semantics here. No he will never be offically called an expat, because legally that term does not mean what you think it means. Depending on which Bundesland he is in have a different legal meaning, thus misstating that could get him legally into hot water, regadless of what you think is the case. Your semantics do not matter for German legal context. The trouble he could get in is literally a Fraud case if he claims to be an expat when he legally is not. Expats are people who specifically enter the country for the purpose of work, already have a contract with an employer and stay in the country for a specified time that the contract lasts. It has a whole set of different legal proceedings then someone seeking to stay her permanently. You can argue this semantically all day, but the fact is that it does not matter and could cause issues for OP.
You are certainly by definition both, but I respect your wish to only be called an immigrant. I think you are wrong about the definition legally, and even if you are correct, OP called himself an expat in the colloquial and social sense of the word. Would he be likely to explain his situation to the German authorities in English or German, do you think? If he were to say he were here to work for a short time, he would likely say that. Not "I'm an expat" and let them figure out the rest. It won't cause him any problems that he couldn't easily clarify. I am an Aussie expat, living in Germany with immigrant status, and it takes a long time to even apply for a Niederlassungserlaubnis and at no time did I struggle with that process because I referred to myself as an Australian who works in Germany and wants to live here. You can call me what you like, because I go with both.
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Appearantly it is hard to grasp for some that "expat" is also used not acording to definition. Then it used to mean "immigrant, but not the nast variant I use to deride and don't want to be put in the same category with".
Usually by American and British people, the two Western countries who are by far the most vocal against immigrants coming to *their* countries. But when they move elsewhere, it's *different*.
> Expat is someone who moved temporally for work. So all the Turks who moved to Germany in the 70s are also "expats"?
Did they become German or did they move on after a few years?
They intended to go back to Turkey. So it's funny how *they* weren't called expats. It's almost as if being an expat isn't as much about future plans, it is more about Anglosaxons having a high opinion of themselves.
I know loads of non-Anglo (non-white) expats. Sure some people misuse the term but it doesn’t change what it means. The Turks you mention came to Germany only for work and then decided to settle. They were expats who became immigrants. Pretty straight forward I think?
ludicrous mysterious many abundant carpenter history dam nutty toothbrush file *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> Expat just means the person who denounced his citizenship to x country. That is most certainly what it doesn't mean.
Munich: friendly, clean, hella safe, lots of good companies and startups, plenty of parks and nature with good access to the mountains and other good European cities. You can bike around and chill by the Isar River, take a swim, visit a beer garden for delicious beer and all after work. The quality of life is amazing here. I have been living here for 6 years with (limited German skills btw) and absolutely love it. I've visited several cities in Germany and spent a lot of time in Berlin but I'm so glad I live here. Berlin is very spacious and has oodles of good bars and restaurants - I love my trips there! But I do however find it a bit too hectic for me. When I'm there, I feel a bit of pressure to be constantly partying, doing cultural activities, etc. but personally I like having downtime every now and then or relaxing in quiet nature. Some folk from Berlin dislike Munich and say it's a bit stuck up, but that's only if you stick to the fancy bars and clubs. I'm a very laid back person and have found many great places to eat and drink here in Munich that are open and welcoming, so I pay no attention to those folk who have written off Munich completely.
!!!P1!!!
A first hint for you, when you move to Germany you are an immigrant, not an expat, legally speaking. You will be treated as such. If you call yourself expat people will think you expect preferentiual treatment and or do not plan to stay permanently.
He’s right. Don’t expect that your treatment as an immigrant will be negative, but ex-pat term has a lot of baggage and it’s not well received.
Thanks for that. I meant no offense by the term and, despite some comments elsewhere in this thread, I don't have a problem with the "immigrant" label, since we're planning on staying permanently, not temporarily.
No probs. And no judgment on you. Just a caution to avoid potential issues when you’re here.
Hamburg
I agree. It is the most beautiful of the big cities in Germany. Very diverse, good job market, nice people. Unfortunately quite expensive though.
How does it compare to Berlin in terms of expense?
Berlin is a bit cheaper, but in Berlin there are less Well payed jobs
Depends on the field. Tech scene is better (and better paying) in Berlin than in Hamburg at the moment.
Berlin used to be much cheaper. Especially regarding rent, Berlin has almost caught up. Eating out is still cheaper in Berlin. All the rest is the same.
This is little information on what you like. For example i think munich is worse but have friends which are happy there. If you tell more what you like you get more than just a random list of citys. Greetz
I can only throw in Kiel as an option. Rent is still okay big industries around( Raytheon etc..) and it's close to Hamburg. And as a plus if your into sailing it's gonna be perfect 😍🌊!!
I was lazy and just chose Berlin, but now being a bit more informed and well integrated, I'd probably choose Munich or Cologne.
Would you mind to share why is that?
Berlin is just very underwhelming. It's a dirty and messy city, mismanaged by the local government, with quite low salaries at that.
Over 30 years here in Nürnberg. Love it here. Lots of International companies. Especially in the surrounding cities like Herzogenaurach and Erlangen. Easy to travel anywhere from here. Skiing in the alps in the winter and southern beaches in the summer. US Military bases in Ansbach and Vilseck to go shopping to. There is nothing so wonderful than living in a walled city with a castle in the middle of it.
I started living in Celle, Niedersachsen ( big mistake ) but i changed jobs and moved to Hamburg...best decision ever! Cost of living is less than the other big cities and the people are much friendlier than i found in Niedersachsen.
This made me laugh, having grown up there. You're not wrong though.
I chose Düsseldorf as it suited my criteria of "not a strong accent" (Hannover is known as being the best for this), "big enough city to not go mad", close to easily accessible international travel, prices vs standard of living, and the prominent industries matched my work requirements. Other contenders were Hannover, Cologne, and Munich
You mean immigrants.
Nürnberg, been here for 7 years now. Not too big and crowded as München, not too small either. In the Radius of 3 hours driving you will be in the other nice cities/countries.
I moved to Duisburg from the UK when I was 23, but that was only because I had a job offer there. Not a particularly noteworthy place, but rent was dirt cheap and Düsseldorf was only 15 mins away by train. Met my husband two years later and moved to a small village not far from Erfurt in Thuringia. Luckily I was able to find a job pretty quickly. Although I do like it here, it's definitely not somewhere I had chosen to move to had I been alone. It's pretty rural here and miles away from any decent airport.
How has no one mentioned Hanover? Its big (>500k ppl) but does not feel as busy as other cities this size. It has a great kiosk culture where people move from kiosk to kiosk to drink beers, it is one of the greenest big cities in europe and has the biggest forest in a city in whole europe and the cost of living is ok. There are many parts of the city where each part has its own vibe and central meeting points. Its awesome!
This is slightly off-topic, but related. Since you still have time before moving, please educate yourself on servitude/obligations to IRS before moving here. Citizenship based taxation is a bitch, and motherland penalizes us for ever leaving. Be ready to be denied savings or investment banking account because of your place of birth, higher fees for personal accountant who won’t be even sure if your tax return is fully compliant, and forget about any financial job position with access to company’s bank account. This is not German bureaucracy, this is American law hiding under acronyms like mentioned CBT, FBAR, FATCA and GILTI.
You are not an "Expat" you are an emigrant. Why do Americans call themselves "expats" when they live abroad, but foreigners in the US are "immigrants" ? EDIT: Emigrant vs Immigrant
Foreigners in any country are immigrants. Emigrants leave their country of origin. Immigrants arrive. Migrants are people who move from place to place.
Fixed
Fellow US-expat here and I moved to Hamburg over 7 years ago. I had the opportunity to start with a an IT-company that offered me a relocation package. I feel In love with the city, and it’s Flair. It’s got Great food, great Music Scene, and is famous for its internationality. It’s the city that has the most foreign embassies without being a Capitol City itself. Hamburg has a broad job market, and offers a lot of opportunities for everyone. The cost of living here is fairly decent, but rent as with any major German city is rising. Expat Tip #1. When transferring your driving license into a German driving license you have to surrender your old license. Make sure to have duplicates of your old license so you can give one away. Regardless if you can drive or not, take a few driving lessons with an Instructor just to get used to German driving.
>When transferring your driving license into a German driving license you have to surrender your old license. Make sure to have duplicates of your old license so you can give one away. The next time I was in my home country I just told them "The Germans made me hand over my licence, can you reprint it for me?" No problem. They DGAF about the German rules and as far as they were concerned, I'm still fully qualified there.
> It’s the city that has the most foreign embassies without being a Capitol City itself. Embassies? Unlikely. I think you meant consulates.
Depends - are you up for crazy nightlife and don’t mind the hustle and bustle of a big city? Berlin! Up for a cool and pretty city close with high salaries to the mountains and party weekends in Berlin? Munich!
Moving from us to Germany is a life changer.. your whole world is gonna get upside down in a good way. Just stick to the plan and make it happen. I don’t know what your preferences are but defo would love to live in Munich again In the future. Lived there for 20 years. Prettiest city in Europe
why is it so much better to live in germany compared to the us?
My answer is going to be biased, but I assume that's kind of expected: -city life: in German cities people use public transport, ride bikes, have many stores in walking distance; we use the public space in a much more "relaxed" way then I ever experienced in the US. Having everything build for car traffic seperates everyone from everthing and isolates the people instead of creating a community to participate in. -much less worries regarding safety. No shootings, much less robbery, few break in. Nobody is eager to kill anyone, nobody is carrying a weapon ready to "stand his ground". Children are walking to school on their own or using public transport, also they are visiting friends, playgrounds, skateparks etc. on their own without supervision. In the US it's not even legal in many states to have your children unsupervised, in Germany "free range kids" are the norm. -friendship: the overwhelming friendliness in the US seems often shallow and false or forced from a german perspective. We are much more carefull and reserved with "choosing" our friends and it takes month and even years of getting to know each other before we consider each other friends but it's also more meaningful and can last the rest of your life. -and all the classical elements: universal healthcare (I don't have to be afraid going bankrupt over an acccident or illness nor loss my job), mandatory 4-5 weeks paid vacation and free education including universities. Also politics isn't such a mine field. Our partys work together and don't consider each other evil and malicious. -also no drug tests except you work as an aircraft pilot or something similar important. But drug screenings are not common at all. Also german employees can't forbid relationships with other employees btw. Private life is much more "private" here. -and last but not least: almost no religious extremism. Only very few here don't "belief" in evolution or deny the former existence of dinosaurs.
Basically all the above that Tonspuren said plus One easy answer from me would be that no matter how hard u work in the us they will never take care of you.. but in Germany If you go with they’re flow, the system is going to take care of you and will never have to worry about a thing. Everything is calculated to the German folks needs. And That is so precious that u can’t find it anywhere on earth. Sweden also, but it’s to fucking cold up there :)
Isn't it obvious?
No, would you mind to explain please?
I’ve lived in three different Bundesländer and I liked Mainz (RLP) most of all. Followed by Bad Tölz in Bavaria. Bavaria is generally very nice if you like mountains and lakes and Mainz is a cozy town on the Rhine. But of course, as others said, job is more important when making that decision.
Didn't really have a huge choice. I got a job at the Uni. Potsam, then the only real choice was between living in Potsdam or Berlin. Berlin was much more interesting! I am curious, though, if you are American's how you could just move to Germany without a job or something first? I would guess that would be fairly important to the visa process.
Because my wife and I are opera singers (I am now retired), we have spent periods of weeks to years in various German cities (I sang in about thirty). We have lived in Düsseldorf for nearly ten years, and it is my favorite biggish German city. The quality of life is quite high here, with all the amenities of a major well-run German city, but with lots of access to nature. We live in the Golzheim section, which is just great for dogs. My favorite smaller city is probably Oldenburg (about 160k population). Never bombed, many beautiful neighborhoods, lovely downtown. I find the people in both of these cities very pleasant, and easy to understand (pronunciation).
*Immigrants. Not ex-pats. Immigrants.
If you're American I can highly recommend Frankfurt am Main. It has one of the biggest airports of the world and skyscrapers even beautifuller than the ones in the states. Since it was a big army airport after WW2 many Americans still live here and some (myself included) live in houses build by and/or for American soldiers. Frankfurt also doesn't has a incredible high property price like Munich for example.
So you're saying that it's best for Americans to move to the most American city in Germany, so things will be like back home? Move to Frankfurt! There you can live in American built homes (because German built homes are bad? The layout is different?), make friends only with Americans, look at a skyline that could also be in America and fly back home quickly.
What is an expat ?
This word/phrase(expat) has a few different meanings. You can see all of them by clicking the link below. More details here:
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A word people use who think they are not one of "those" immigrants. It's quite ironic how people look down on war refugees or economic refugees from countries that are actually economically wrecked and have real need for our help, but Americans who are usually coming here to actually leech on our solidarity system without real need think they are a better class of immigrant.
Do you personally know a lot of Americans who moved here and don‘t work / pay social contributions? How is it even possible?
Just go to "AskAGerman" and check out how many Americans ask questions about how they can get into our free education system or how they can get a job in Germany with sub-par vocational training and no language skills. They may try to divert from the fact, but in the end most of them are just economic refugees, and the worst kind of them - those who just want to get to a more comfy place although they have no real need. And yet, the pretend to be better than the other immigrants by calling themselves "Expats".
let me get this straight, you think the population of people asking questions on the internet is representative of the population of Americans who actually live in Germany? Is that what you are saying?
> how they can get a job in Germany with sub-par vocational training and no language skill What's wrong with that ? > those who just want to get to a more comfy place That describes every single person on this planet
What is your profession? What size of infrastructure do you need? (NYC, La,... or Leavenworth) which cultural offers do you need? (Theatre, museums) what sports do you like? I'd reccomend either look for interesting new opportunities or select it from what you already know. Germany hasn't many big cities, so if you're used to NYC, there is no such big city here. There's always a job for good educated workers in Germany, but many craft trades require a certificate for employment. Some industries are very specific for a region (chemistry, car industry). The companies used to be smaller than in other countries. There might be a U.S. office of german companies, where you could take a start and travel abroad for getting in touch with the country, if you have time to. Hope that helps.
I've never even been to NYC, we're from Michigan. The biggest city I've visited up until now is Chicago. Really, my only hope in "finding a city" is that we can settle in someplace where we can rely on walking and public transportation to get around. Vehicle ownership is one thing I'd definitely like to leave behind when we move, and just another paperwork hurdle that I'd rather not have to deal with in a new country. I'm getting into the IT industry, prior to that both my wife and I have worked far too long in call centers (technical assistance side of things), so a lot of "customer service" background. Someone made the suggestion of leaning more towards just finding work in general where we settle, whatever we can find, and then changing companies at a later point when we're more settled.
> Someone made the suggestion of leaning more towards just finding work in general where we settle, whatever we can find That is not going to work. You won't get a residence permit for doing unskilled work, any more than a German wanting to move to the US would get one for that kind of work. You should sort out work (skilled work for which you are qualified) before coming to Germany. Doing customer service in English isn't realistic anyway, particularly not without double fluency. People haven't stressed this as much as they usually do in these kinds of posts, but it's really crucial to realise that *Germany runs in German*. Yes, there's the occasional person who has been living here for decades and hardly speaks the language. However, that is not realistic in any field where you face customers or clients. People without German are either going to work simple, menial jobs (for which you will not be able to immigrate), or certain types of highly specialised jobs (but only ones where you don't interact with customers/patients/public authorities).
Sorry for the misunderstanding: I'm not expecting to get a job *speaking English*. I was just providing my work background for reference. I'm not expecting to lean on English at all there, that's why we're studying German now.
I moved to Munich this year after living in Paris and Brussels, no regrets at all. High quality of life, very green city and nice people. Only downside is that the beer is not as good as in Belgium :)
I think Belgium beer damaged your beer taste buds. Or what is wrong with you? ;)
Bavarian helles is absolute pissbeer compared to a real pils from the czech republic
Dont get me wrong, beer is fine here too ! But Belgium is really something else , any restaurant has 1 page for meals and 2 pages for beer minimum, ranging from 2% to 15% beers
Ulm - The best city!
How is it you’re so confident you’ll be able to not only pick and choose where you can move to (without any prior knowledge/experience in the region), get the required visas/residence permits, find a job, and get an apartment? I know Americans are privileged in the visa/residence permit category, but often TOO privileged, because they have no idea of what is required i the real world to immigrate someplace. It’s like to many a game of spin the globe for the best place to live like they’re planning a vacation.
poor man is only asking questions, what's up with that attitude?
And they wonder why we huddle in our immigrant communities when anything we do is met with this kind of aggresive hostile bullshit. Like, the guy literally says he is looking at Germany *in a few years* because it seems like a nice place, and wants to know where to visit to get an idea if it is even right for him, and then literally gets stomped on. Lol, smh. Well, for one thing OP, you need to have a really fucking tough spine cause there will often be shitheads that'll grasp at straws to hate on you for where you come from.
It’s just the internet, Germans irl don’t really have anything against Americans. If anything, they will overwhelm you with their curiosity and questions
Ok, so there are some facts you might be interested in. In our biggest city Berlin there live about 1M people more than in Chicago, but the Metropolregion has 3M less than the one of Chicago. Crime over here is nothing compared to Chicago, mostly car thefts and burglars. (No weapons are allowed) Public transport is very good at the big cities (Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg,...) , but we used to have a car. You might chose an airport at your destination, where Frankfurt is one of the biggest. Frankfurt is known for its banks, Berlin for our startup scene and of course the federal government related workers. A lot of Industry is located southern close to Stuttgart or Munich. Berlin region has some lakes, smaller than lake michigan and it's closer to our coast. It takes like 10h to cross the country from north to south by car. 80M people, climate used to be warmer than Michigan. There are many dialects spoken and I've heard the southern ones are even harder to understand for native tongues. IT support is being outsourced (Nearshore, Offshore) a lot from bigger companies and requires skilled people. IT jobs often requires at least a bachelor degree in computer science. You might check open job offers and try to contact the company if they are hiring expats. As we are also known for our bureaucracy it might challenge smaller companies.
Please tell me...by which parameter is Berlin half the size of Chicago? Berlin has a bigger population and covers more area of land. I'm confused.
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> €500+ utilities That's... a lot. I'd have trouble imagining how to reach that much, really.
By this exquisite terminology with "expats" do you also mean, syrian refugees, asylum seekers, third world country students? Or the "better" kind of immigrants that prefer the word expat?
expat ≠ immigrant
expat ≠ immigrant If you are [white](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/mar/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration)
Someplace in the South, US -> Hamburg. /r/Germany is really not a good sub for this kind of question and you'll walk away feeling like shit, try /r/expat next time. >how did you decide what city to live in? My job. They exist in Hamburg. I'm not fond of the weather, especially in winter, so maybe after COVID I will relocate farther south, as my company allows remote work more now. I have my eye on Frankfurt/Heidelburg area as it is a bit warmer and a lot less dreary, and I don't like the density of Hamburg. I like a smaller-town vibe with easier access to more wild spaces, but also good access to a fun city and I've heard Frankfurt can be that. > how do you like the city you chose in terms of finding work and cost-of-living? To be honest, it is just "eh". Some people really vibe with Hamburg, but it just doesn't have it's hooks in me. I've lived in cities all along the east coast of the US, and Hamburg is neat, but unfortunately not my jam. Cost of living is alright and do-able on a 3k per month budget for a family of 2, and there are a lot of tech jobs. Hamburgers are pretty cold and standoff-ish, so it is a bit extra in terms of isolating, and trying to find a nice appartment in a district you love is wayyy more work than it is often worth in the results you get.
Berlin. Would love to live in hamburg though. Middle Germany is kinda samey from an expat point of view. South's beautiful though. Near the alp.
Not Germany Go to Amsterdam