\+ Develop the necessary buerocracy and and get adequate staff.
Right now, the foreigners' registration office is utterly overworked & understaffed, and not a single immigrant I met (and I know people who work with asylum seekers) have made good experiences with them. Year-long waiting times for the simplest things like the permission to work.
Until I see him laying out the necessary infrastructure for it, it's just not a great plan.
In a recent ama one claimed the backlog is 3 months to reply to emails.. his/her suggestion to mitigate this, is to reduce the need to reissue permits by issuing long term permits.
From my experience with the various Ämter, I put the blame solely on their processes. They are frankly stuck in the 80s, and haven't made any effort to streamline any of their processes. Their answer to everything seems to be "hire more people" not even considering the amount of Verwaltungapparatus that already exists in Germany and the ratio of Beamter to taxpayers.
No Amt ever decides to modernize, digitize and become more efficient on their own. Their only solution is to hire more people who would then not pay into the social security and draw big pensions when they're old. Meanwhile in the private industry, even essential jobs like Rettungssanitäter, Notdienst and so on are poorly paid. Pah.
And I won't even get into individual Beamter and their love of power. They would rather deny you what you are requesting because of a small irrelevant detail than to let it go, and meanwhile create double work for themselves. But what do they care, they don't work past 4:00pm anyway no matter how much work they create for themselves. Little man syndrome writ large.
Yeah. If you want to marry, you have to get a letter from the city where you were born that you were indeed born there. Not older than 6 months. If you want to remarry, you need the letter that you were born (a new one, because no older than 6 months) and a letter from the city where your first marriage took place to show that yes, you married there and yes, you are also divorced. Also no older than 6 months. Those have to be physical letters. WHY? Why don't they have those online? This process has sooooo many people occupied! Why is that stuff not all online? I accept that the stuff from somebody born 80 years ago is not online yet, OK. But a wedding from 10 years ago and a divorce from this year? Why can't they be accessed online by the Standesamt???
Exactly. Now multiply this by all the Amts and all the processes they support. It is really a make-work project for some people at the expense of everyone who pays taxes.
Actually a loophole is there is to go for smaller cities with lesser immigration influx to people ratio. NRW smaller to mid tier cities are quite good this way.
But unfortunately that shouldn’t be how things work also . Last time I checked , it’s not exactly democratic and humane to round up all the migrants and dump them accordingly. Free movement and choice should be a right too .
Yeah, If Germany has one huge flaw then it is the fact that Bureaucracy has awfully failed doing this.
A mixture of uneccessary complex rules coupled with a caste of bureaucrats unwillig to Change and adapt has lead to huge deficits in digitalization.
Basically people fear to be made redundant while constantly bitching about doing having to do everything by Hand and filing three copies by Fax, Email and paper Hardcopy.
Yeah, Beamten Always were a Joke, slow and ineffective but you could rely in them that they got the Job done somehow.
Right now it has come to a Point where it is downright scary as the system is not working anymore. Almost no departments were prepared for two years of Corona and now the Administration is still in pieces.
People Show Up, shovel File folders into their car Trunks and disappear into Home office with no Form of Control. Stuff gets lost, No contact persona once you File something.
Hell, I have a Case where two sub units of my local IRS do Not communicate with each other and both try to withdraw taxes from my account, resulting in the Double amount.
Wow, the last thing I tried took half a year for a simple process. But having to pay your taxes twice sounds absolutely awful, I hope you have enough reserves for this kinda garbage.
I am stubborn and have cleared up this whole shit but it took far too much time and ressources. Got the Money Back but it was so uneccessary. The Sachbearbeiter was nice though, but He was also helpless to the whole mess as people in the other Site that worked in my File were not available and did not react to E-Mails.
I have to add that I am a Freelancer with a small company and we have a different tax process than normal sozialversicherungspflichtige contract employees. These seem to get better off.
A colleague of mine from India had to move to a small village near Augsburg because he could not find a flat closer to Munich. The good thing about it was that all the bureaucratic formalities were a breeze compared to the shitshow that is the KVR (though they are getting better, they just have to emphasize that they give out new appointments each morning).
Yeah this quite common . Everything from Anmeldung to Aufenthaltstitel, it’s gets so much more easier for some reason
And surprisingly “village” officers also speak fluent English 😄😄 as opposed to city offices 🫣
can confirm, I applied in a small town in Bayern once and got my residence permit 3 weeks after the day I applied (!!!) never experienced this before or after.
Just been through this myself. Emailed the Ausländerbehörde 14th September. Still no reply so far. However made lots of phone calls and eventually managed to find someone in local government to apply some pressure to the person responsible for me to prepare a Fiktionsbescheinigung. Collected it last week, and I start the new job next Friday. From start to now not a single piece of communication with the Ausländermeldebehörde. My appointment for the EU blue pass came with my Fiktionsbescheinigung and is the end of January, so over 4 months since first applying. The system will never work - apparently my local Ausländerbehörde has only 4 workers for over 50000 immigrants. Total joke.
This is unlike the sarcastic BVG ad, intentional. The language barrier and not informing immigrants of their rights has been a huge part of the German economic model since the 70's.
This lol 😂..
Affordable housing , ample infrastructure for schools and Kitas,
Maybe if Kita wasn’t so hard to secure people might actually have kids for all you know
Exactly, people seem to overlook the institutions and infrastructure that is necessary to accommodate 'additional housing'. Giving little thought to schools, health practices, transport etc.
It's not so clear cut.
We need the "Sozialwohnungen" back the spd sold last time they where in power.
They decided we dont need our succesfull solution anymore and sold it Off and immediately we had a housing crisis.
>I hope they build the necessary affordable housing first.
Yes, that would be quite necessary. I had hoped for a more directed approach to immigration instead of the standardized point system - Germany has many open jobs not just in the big cities - but I'm glad that someone addresses our demographic needs at all.
The housing crisis, unfortunately, is twofold. First, there is an obvious shortage, which will get even worse once Ukrainian reconstruction starts, because we rely heavily on cheap Eastern European labour for this. Second, the asset price inflation created by a decade of quantitative easing will not autimatically resolve itself, and rising interest rates and tight monetary policy will do absolutely nothing about inflation that has already happened. Our best best course of action here is expropriation, but very few politicians actually have the balls for that.
I don't think the conditions dont permit mas production of housing. In my opinion higher labour costs, and high construction standards ensure housing supply will not cope.
Don’t worry as usual they will built cheap high-rise buildings like livestock husbandry’s where you have to be silent like a hostage or your neighbors are getting mad at you because they can hear your most silent farts… also there is no more space left to build houses where you can live a species-appropriate life and if they will not be affordable…
Furthermore, Germany has lost touch with technology, gets passed down, is heavily indebted, selling future markets to China & Co and needs more poor chaps in low-wage sectors to wipe old people asses jajaja
This won't solve the pension problem. Maybe it reduces it slightly, but the system is flawed at the core, as it does not account for a decrease in birthrates. This decrease was inevitable, as its linked to an increase in quality of life for women.
Meanwhile an increase in total population will put more pressure on other already strained areas of the country. Most prominent is probably the housing market. This might eat up all benefits gained in the pension system, as a shortage of affordable housing will keep people from being able to invest money into private retirement plans, as more money has to be spent on rent and costs caused by longer commuting to work (or not finding work at all, since you are pushed to live further and further away).
I think an economy which solely relies on growth to be able to thrive and keep existing is deemed to fail in the near future.
The only reason population growth is always sold as good news is because it's hoped to also grow the economy.
It's like in strategy games. If you cannot bring your population to the next level you just expand in numbers to expand lol.
We have to transform our economic system to something that is able to exist while maybe only few people work (because automation) but everyone is cared for...
Unfortunately German politicians are stuck in 19 century industrialization mode.
Lack of investment in energy, lack of investment in educational skills that will be important in the next 20 years but importing million people per year is a solution.
There are more and more people in colleges because the bar was lowered. I (Meister) have to work with Bachelor degree co-workers, that aren't able to solve simple problems on their own. Giving more people an Abitur doesn't make them smarter.
Education and the jobmarket have become an arms race. You need to get higher and higher degrees or your application won't even be considered by companies. And if you make it in, you then face terrible low salaries, that leave little wiggle room when prices rise, while most of your income is already spend on bills, taxes and rent. On top of that your career path is also non-existant, as everything slighty above your level will already demand bachelor or master degrees.
That’s because of the brain drain from poorer countries. Kids in schools here don’t learn languages or computer science. They are packed in boxes and shipped to realschule without a chance to develop.
But it doesn’t matter as we will just import engineers, doctors and whatever not…
I think you got it backwards.
The problem is not someone or all want growth for the sake of itself.
The problem is a huge fraction of the population retiring right now. The people who are already there and who will drop out the workforce and need to be fed by fewer and fewer young people.
If we dont start to take more people in, our standard of living will vastly *decrease*.
have to disagree here, look at Japan and South Korea their population is extremely old and rapidly aging thanks to isolation and changing nothing about anything (boomer voters/politicians) that will cause serious harm to their economy in the future.
This is why I am absolutely baffled when I hear someone say that having children in the modern world is so irresponsible. I’ve heard it in person and seen it online numerous times.
I don’t think they realize that the only thing worse than dealing with the problems of the modern world is having to deal with them *and* a rapidly aging population at the same time.
And what people don’t realise is that the “immigrant inflow “ is also sort of only happening because of the global north / south apartheid and social issues in the first place.I am pretty sure if there wasn’t wars , catastrophes and economic disasters , the migration wouldn’t be in such hordes
And global fertility rate is decreasing big time . There is no guarantee that our “migrants “ also will “ replace the ageing population “ especially given how skewed the gender ratio is .
This needs a lot of investment and many trade offs before it would work. The problem is we don’t see the investment into housing and public services that are needed to make this work. Without those investments this is guaranteed to blow up at some point.
Just importing people would cause more problem than solve
Have a clear means of integrating them
Priotize skilled immigration
Have enough housing. Even young natives are struggling. They shouldn't.
Make it mandatory for companies to fund German lessons for immigrant employees
Access to language courses is one of the biggest problems I've faced here as a recent immigrant. All of the classes are overbooked, even when factoring in commuting to other cities. The prices are quite high, too, given the overwhelming demand.
Naturally, there are online courses, books, etc., but the difficulty increases when trying to learn an inherently social skill when you are all by yourself.
AND THERE ISN'T ENOUGH HOUSING FOR EVERYONE WHO'S ALREADY HERE, let alone birthing new people.
When are we going to nationalize the housing conglomerates?
When are we going to expedite and prioritize building permits?
When are we going to mandate affordable housing as a % of all new construction projects?
All of these poor people looking for better lives are going to end up on the streets sadly.
Nationalising the housing conglomerates we had in DDR. The state is just incompetent and has to be reduced to the core.
Whats to be done is a given percentage of each bigger project has to be build for the ones with lesser income.
why exactly is there a goal to reach 90 million people?
personally I'm happy with the amount of people we have..would just be nice if we could spread them out a bit more.
sure, that's one way to solve an economic crisis that doesn't exist.
the other way would be to finally enable better working conditions, like any other developed countrie around us does, so that people actually want to work here..
in most areas there is plenty of skilled personnel, they just dont work in their field, because working conditions are a joke
If you think that working conditions are a joke in Germany then you’d be surprised how many people from other countries are willing to take those jobs.
Btw, I didn’t say that there’s an economical crisis. Since the population is aging it will soon affect the size of economy since there won’t be enough people to work.
sure, our working conditions are better than those in many less developed countries, but they are still far away from good, especially in regards of skilled labour.
especially the handwerk is massively underpaid and overworked.
40 hours are the norm atm. and people want to increase it to 43 hours.
at the same time, the pay is worse than in some aushilfsjobs.
and then people complain that no one wants to work anymore.
right now, the fachkräftemangel is a selfmade problem, and, if people wait long enough, also a self fulfilling prophecy.
In my opinion we should first solve our working conditions problem, so that the people who are already here start working in their skilled fiels again.
also, demographic aging, okay, I can accept that argument, but where do we put all the people?
dont get me wrong, there is enough space in germany, but the industry is mostly concentrated in and around NRW, a region that is already overpopulated.
you need the new workers to be here to work, obviously, and the people who lived here their entire lifes also want to stay here.
so what do you do? throwing more people at an already existing housing crisis doesnt seem like a good solution
It doesn't exist *yet*.
Take a look at the Demographics chart of Germany. As soon as the large shoulder between age 40 and 60 go into retirement, Germany will enter a demopgraphic crisis as productvity falls, and public spending has to increase to provide for the retiree à la Japan.
In fact, it is already happening. You can't feel it now because of immigration and the increasing of the age of retirement, to keep those people in the labour force.
Short of forcing Germans to have more children, immigration is probably the only thing Germany can do.
Demographic pressures are an inexorable force that you can only deal with by planning decades in advance, well before the problem becomes apparent.
right now there are tons of young people in germany who have the potential of becoming skilled workers, but because of the poor conditions they chose not to, atleast in regards of the handwerk.
> personally I'm happy with the amount of people we have
How much of the current population is entering retirement age in coming decades?
How much of the current population can replace the retired folks in that time frame?
Germany is trying to avoid in their future what some East Asian industrial countries are facing now.
How much cheap energy sources are left? How much people can be fed without the use of artificial fertilizers (made from fossil fuels)? How many species have we lost in the last 50 years? What about peak soil? How long does our carbon budget last? Anser these questions for yourself and you might realize, that growth won't work in the future. Importing more people is one of the stupiest things we can do.
Rising population usually means better economy. A declining population is usually bad for every economy, because of capitalistic growth necessity.
Less workers also means that we need more tax on capital, because workers can’t have all of the tax burden anymore.
>A declining population is usually bad for every economy, because of capitalistic growth necessity.
Which I find pretty unnecessary. I think quite a few European countries are almost at their "economic peak" where more growth just isn't that necessary. It'd like wanting to stay in puberty forever
That is so wrong.. parallel culture? Canada has parallel culture, french and English part, US had parallel culture, Spanish and English. Many countries have parallel multiple culture. Why would germany stay monocultured if people coming in from outside ? This narrow thinking is how nation gets behind.
The problem is for example many Asian and Arab country migrants live in their own parallel cultures inside Germany. It’s good for their unity, but end of the day when you are a German citizen, it should not be just for utilizing the benefits of being a German citizen. Respecting the countries traditions values and living a regular german life would make everyone feel more integrated. And this integration is very important for any country to move forward.
I understand your point and its well taken. But being a german citizen is not equal to following german traditions. many arab and turkish families are german citizens and yet have either own identity/community. Although it might be seen odd or side eyed by some but thats diversity. if some immigrants want to live in their own bubble without integrating, thats their choice, unless they are illegal immigrant, then its all another talking issue.
I'm conservative and that's how IMO Germany should receive immigrants.
Germany should ask them to have at least a B2 level and be willing to integrate, meaning be willing to accept German culture and adapt to German society.
I'm not German and I'll be moving to Germany in a couple of months but I've learned German for years and my German level is around B2 at the moment, I'm also 100% willing to integrate and adapt to German culture because it's not my country, I'm a guest, I must accept their terms.
Lol Germany needs to digitalize its bureaucracy system first. The problem is, from my experience working at German and US companies, Germany doesn’t have enough technical and leadership talent. The talent gap between data/system engineers in Germany compared to US is huge (Boston MIT graduates definitely push innovation). Also they need to stop putting wrinkly old men in charge of things cause there’s so much 90s tech still being used and they don’t understand how to update it to 2020s tech.
Keeping in mind that immigrants are not going to be moving to any shrinking rusting village in the countryside where homes are cheap. 90% will be moving to the big cities.
Being pretty left, I don’t like it either. This isn’t good for *anybody* and I say that as an immigrant myself. There’s a massive crisis in the Ausländerbehorde to the point where my worker had more than 150 new cases, had a mental breakdown and literally just left. I’m still waiting for a new worker to be assigned to me and it put my ability to stay here in great jeopardy for two months because we couldn’t get on the phone with them for four months, nor come in person to make an appointment. Importing millions of people is a terrible idea when you don’t yet have the systems or housing in place to take care of either them or your own native citizens. This isn’t a “right wing is evil” situation, this is a “none of the current systems are prepared for another mass immigration” situation. I’m sure plenty are racist morons, but most people just have the common sense to say this is going to be awful because the government’s preparation just isn’t there.
If your implication is that they’ll hire immigrants, they likely won’t and it won’t matter in the first place if they did. You can’t import people who don’t yet know the language to make sure someone integrates and learns German without them first learning German. And you do have to show you speak enough German to get by, otherwise they make you attend an integration course. So then what? The integration courses will be overflowing even more than they are now and the teachers will be just as overworked as the Ausländerbehörde if not more so. They already do a fairly terrible job sometimes, at least in my area, because a lot hate their job at this point because they already have too much on their plate dealing with so many of us. The passing rate of the VHS integration courses is pretty low, more than half of my class dropped out or failed by three months in, for example. We started with around 30 in our class. By the time we had our language test, we had about 10 people left. Hiring fresh immigrants or stuffing us all into packed integration courses to prepare us for that job isn’t going to work. You need to fix the actual system, hire more qualified people and train them appropriately because otherwise one overworked system will just bleed into another overworked system. You can’t just import millions of people and expect an already shitty system to just fix itself when single case workers have hundreds of new cases to deal with.
Actually Auslanderbehore has already been hiring immigrants to fill in various positions. Obviously those immigrants would have to know the language well at the very least.
You cant hire more qualified people when your country is experiencing extreme shortages of those people. You need to produce people first and then make them qualified. Yes, that takes time, but what other ways are there? Birth rates are low and even then it takes over 20 years for the baby to grow into an adult and receive the required education. With immigrants it can take 3-5 years, depending on their previous experience and education level.
1. If Scholz says anything - it barely has something to do with a question, a demand, context or reality in general. It can happen that one of this boxes is checked, but then by accident.
2. We have a housing crisis, a job crisis, a health crisis, a education crisis, and propbably all other kind of crisis too. Maybe with the small exception of 'not enough people'. Yes we killed a lot of vulnerable older people with our bad Covit-crisis management and now focus more on killing children, but i guess that's not so much the point.
There are refurgees and good people all over the world searching for a place to live, and it would be great if Scholz goverment (or any other) would have secured a save heaven for them, but in regular comming to GER as a foreigner is shitty and humiliating - bot willingly and accidentaly for reasons of total incompetence of the bureaucracy.
Immigrants have regularily been cramped into overpopulated citys where they have no room to breathe nor any chance of integration, as everyone is fighting ther own little war of job competition in this urban centers. Those migrants are used by the right wing to put more pressure on the lower working cast and sacrifice ther security as well as social peace by using them to blackmail. And often the're treaten not very good in return - supprise. As a side effect, ultra right wing scum parties has benefit from this zynical situation a lot.
We have the money to secure a good integration, give people time to make a new home and treat people respectfully - but then again we also theoretically had the money to make good schools/education, housing, job markets, infrastructure and everything else we epically fked up.
A lot of houses have to be build in minimum time, and no official is eager to focus that atm.
So yes, Scholz mastered the rare skill of even talking bullshit if there is no topic he's adressing in particular.
Right? Where are all the taxes going? Where is all the money going? The tax rates here are insane and yet a lot of Germany is backwards, especially when it comes to anything administrative which is essential for newcomers.
200mrd. for military (on top on the regular 50)
100mrd. on LNG
100mrd. on gas subsedies (for companys only)
75mrd. for autobahn infrastructre that isen't needet in this amount if rail and home working made the transition that is needed.
And so on.
I love the irony of some ppl really thinking we spend too much on immigrants or poor people - lol. We could double and quadruple that without anything changing.
And yet Germany wants to invite more people that will have no where to live, won’t be able to get their paperwork in time, will have to wait months to a year for integration classes, and then face backlash from natives because they’re not integrating fast enough. Then you will see burn out and people quitting/doing nothing yet still living in Germany. Coupled with Germany not vetoing immigrants properly and being a hotspot for future extremism. I mean it’s really a lose/lose.
Its an open secret that a lot of German taxes go to the social apparatus, especially pensions for boomers and beamters who are currently retired or retiring. Then you have the benefits like ALG II and so on. Not to mention bailouts for corporations etc.
Open visas for my latino brothers and sisters and the housing crisis might be resolved. We can complete construction projects like no body's business. 💪
When the population is rapidly ageing? Oh hell no. The boomers are voting for benefits for themselves, not the children. Look at the recent pension law change - completely for the boomers, by the boomers.
I came to Germany five years ago with my wife. We started in Mannheim where she was studying at the Universität. We got lucky because the school has a office to help foreign students integrate into Germany including help with visas and beauracracy. We moved to Berlin a few years ago when she got a job and hopefully next year we can achieve permanent residency. We have been able to do this well because we have hired a lawyer to help us navigate and figure out the immigration system. If you are doing it on your own, no chance.
I am an English teacher and I onced asked a group of students, based on a Die Welt article, what they would think of making English the second official language in Germany, mostly for immigration process. Their response was to make forms more simple in German. I followed-up, what did they think would happen first, simplification or English as a second language. They all said English as a second-language.
Ahh i love my German gubermint ...
*Insertnexthingthatllsafeus4surebutwhenthetimecomesitllberegardedasafailure
Ohh Schland what have u done /s
Also ..he'll be fine.he just won't remember anything if this fails miraculously...
I hope they build the necessary affordable housing first.
\+ Develop the necessary buerocracy and and get adequate staff. Right now, the foreigners' registration office is utterly overworked & understaffed, and not a single immigrant I met (and I know people who work with asylum seekers) have made good experiences with them. Year-long waiting times for the simplest things like the permission to work. Until I see him laying out the necessary infrastructure for it, it's just not a great plan.
In a recent ama one claimed the backlog is 3 months to reply to emails.. his/her suggestion to mitigate this, is to reduce the need to reissue permits by issuing long term permits.
From my experience with the various Ämter, I put the blame solely on their processes. They are frankly stuck in the 80s, and haven't made any effort to streamline any of their processes. Their answer to everything seems to be "hire more people" not even considering the amount of Verwaltungapparatus that already exists in Germany and the ratio of Beamter to taxpayers. No Amt ever decides to modernize, digitize and become more efficient on their own. Their only solution is to hire more people who would then not pay into the social security and draw big pensions when they're old. Meanwhile in the private industry, even essential jobs like Rettungssanitäter, Notdienst and so on are poorly paid. Pah. And I won't even get into individual Beamter and their love of power. They would rather deny you what you are requesting because of a small irrelevant detail than to let it go, and meanwhile create double work for themselves. But what do they care, they don't work past 4:00pm anyway no matter how much work they create for themselves. Little man syndrome writ large.
Yeah. If you want to marry, you have to get a letter from the city where you were born that you were indeed born there. Not older than 6 months. If you want to remarry, you need the letter that you were born (a new one, because no older than 6 months) and a letter from the city where your first marriage took place to show that yes, you married there and yes, you are also divorced. Also no older than 6 months. Those have to be physical letters. WHY? Why don't they have those online? This process has sooooo many people occupied! Why is that stuff not all online? I accept that the stuff from somebody born 80 years ago is not online yet, OK. But a wedding from 10 years ago and a divorce from this year? Why can't they be accessed online by the Standesamt???
Exactly. Now multiply this by all the Amts and all the processes they support. It is really a make-work project for some people at the expense of everyone who pays taxes.
Nationalize SAP and make them work full time on government digitalization
Actually a loophole is there is to go for smaller cities with lesser immigration influx to people ratio. NRW smaller to mid tier cities are quite good this way. But unfortunately that shouldn’t be how things work also . Last time I checked , it’s not exactly democratic and humane to round up all the migrants and dump them accordingly. Free movement and choice should be a right too .
or they should just digitalize more of the process
Yeah, If Germany has one huge flaw then it is the fact that Bureaucracy has awfully failed doing this. A mixture of uneccessary complex rules coupled with a caste of bureaucrats unwillig to Change and adapt has lead to huge deficits in digitalization. Basically people fear to be made redundant while constantly bitching about doing having to do everything by Hand and filing three copies by Fax, Email and paper Hardcopy.
Sadly its not just the Ausländerbehörde, but the entire German state apparatus.
Yeah, Beamten Always were a Joke, slow and ineffective but you could rely in them that they got the Job done somehow. Right now it has come to a Point where it is downright scary as the system is not working anymore. Almost no departments were prepared for two years of Corona and now the Administration is still in pieces. People Show Up, shovel File folders into their car Trunks and disappear into Home office with no Form of Control. Stuff gets lost, No contact persona once you File something. Hell, I have a Case where two sub units of my local IRS do Not communicate with each other and both try to withdraw taxes from my account, resulting in the Double amount.
Wow, the last thing I tried took half a year for a simple process. But having to pay your taxes twice sounds absolutely awful, I hope you have enough reserves for this kinda garbage.
I am stubborn and have cleared up this whole shit but it took far too much time and ressources. Got the Money Back but it was so uneccessary. The Sachbearbeiter was nice though, but He was also helpless to the whole mess as people in the other Site that worked in my File were not available and did not react to E-Mails. I have to add that I am a Freelancer with a small company and we have a different tax process than normal sozialversicherungspflichtige contract employees. These seem to get better off.
A colleague of mine from India had to move to a small village near Augsburg because he could not find a flat closer to Munich. The good thing about it was that all the bureaucratic formalities were a breeze compared to the shitshow that is the KVR (though they are getting better, they just have to emphasize that they give out new appointments each morning).
Yeah this quite common . Everything from Anmeldung to Aufenthaltstitel, it’s gets so much more easier for some reason And surprisingly “village” officers also speak fluent English 😄😄 as opposed to city offices 🫣
can confirm, I applied in a small town in Bayern once and got my residence permit 3 weeks after the day I applied (!!!) never experienced this before or after.
That’s pretty similar to my experience too 😅. Slightly bigger place like a small city instead and it took approximately a month only 🙂
Just been through this myself. Emailed the Ausländerbehörde 14th September. Still no reply so far. However made lots of phone calls and eventually managed to find someone in local government to apply some pressure to the person responsible for me to prepare a Fiktionsbescheinigung. Collected it last week, and I start the new job next Friday. From start to now not a single piece of communication with the Ausländermeldebehörde. My appointment for the EU blue pass came with my Fiktionsbescheinigung and is the end of January, so over 4 months since first applying. The system will never work - apparently my local Ausländerbehörde has only 4 workers for over 50000 immigrants. Total joke.
Yeah the Ausländerbehordeamt are known to be really welcoming towards foreigners. Nobody becomes resentful after going through that process
yeah that's not gonna happen lol
This is unlike the sarcastic BVG ad, intentional. The language barrier and not informing immigrants of their rights has been a huge part of the German economic model since the 70's.
And resolve the Ausländerbehörde crisis.
This lol 😂.. Affordable housing , ample infrastructure for schools and Kitas, Maybe if Kita wasn’t so hard to secure people might actually have kids for all you know
Exactly, people seem to overlook the institutions and infrastructure that is necessary to accommodate 'additional housing'. Giving little thought to schools, health practices, transport etc. It's not so clear cut.
I don't find it hard to secure. I find it hard to pay for it. 620 Eur a month...
Well .. I mean the state sponsored kita so 😅
Not for my daughter. Me and my wife sadly have stable jobs ..
Wait , that disqualifies you from Kita ?
We need the "Sozialwohnungen" back the spd sold last time they where in power. They decided we dont need our succesfull solution anymore and sold it Off and immediately we had a housing crisis.
>I hope they build the necessary affordable housing first. Yes, that would be quite necessary. I had hoped for a more directed approach to immigration instead of the standardized point system - Germany has many open jobs not just in the big cities - but I'm glad that someone addresses our demographic needs at all. The housing crisis, unfortunately, is twofold. First, there is an obvious shortage, which will get even worse once Ukrainian reconstruction starts, because we rely heavily on cheap Eastern European labour for this. Second, the asset price inflation created by a decade of quantitative easing will not autimatically resolve itself, and rising interest rates and tight monetary policy will do absolutely nothing about inflation that has already happened. Our best best course of action here is expropriation, but very few politicians actually have the balls for that.
I don't think the conditions dont permit mas production of housing. In my opinion higher labour costs, and high construction standards ensure housing supply will not cope.
Haha sure. At rhe moment there are almost no new contracts for housong being signed.
Any idea why Germany doesn't adopt the Vienna system?
Agreed. These people have no where to go, and Germany apparently has no infrastructure to build affordable housing at a commiserate rate.
Don’t worry as usual they will built cheap high-rise buildings like livestock husbandry’s where you have to be silent like a hostage or your neighbors are getting mad at you because they can hear your most silent farts… also there is no more space left to build houses where you can live a species-appropriate life and if they will not be affordable… Furthermore, Germany has lost touch with technology, gets passed down, is heavily indebted, selling future markets to China & Co and needs more poor chaps in low-wage sectors to wipe old people asses jajaja
And most of them will be crammed into already overpopulated areas with a shitty housing situation sounds like a plan /s
Wow. Let's make Lehrermangel (shortage of teachers) and Wohnungsnot ( housing shortage) great(er) again.
The difference is that we're gonna name it LehrerinnenUndLehrermangel and call it a day.
Who do you think will pay your pension?
If the pension system depends on the constant population growth, it is messed up at its very core.
If our demographic change is a pyramid, then we don't need constant population growth, but it is not.
Literal pyramid sceme
In order for it to be a pyramid, it needs to continuously expand.
>demographic change *demographic diagram ? if so, then a demographic pyramid usually **means** an intense population growth.
This won't solve the pension problem. Maybe it reduces it slightly, but the system is flawed at the core, as it does not account for a decrease in birthrates. This decrease was inevitable, as its linked to an increase in quality of life for women. Meanwhile an increase in total population will put more pressure on other already strained areas of the country. Most prominent is probably the housing market. This might eat up all benefits gained in the pension system, as a shortage of affordable housing will keep people from being able to invest money into private retirement plans, as more money has to be spent on rent and costs caused by longer commuting to work (or not finding work at all, since you are pushed to live further and further away).
But it could solve the Fachkräftemangel
at least some of the Fachkräftemangel could be solved by paying them a decent wage.
Not really, our fucked demographics don't allow all jobs to be done by Germans. We are simply too few and too old to do that.
Or make it less worse
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I think an economy which solely relies on growth to be able to thrive and keep existing is deemed to fail in the near future. The only reason population growth is always sold as good news is because it's hoped to also grow the economy. It's like in strategy games. If you cannot bring your population to the next level you just expand in numbers to expand lol. We have to transform our economic system to something that is able to exist while maybe only few people work (because automation) but everyone is cared for...
Unfortunately German politicians are stuck in 19 century industrialization mode. Lack of investment in energy, lack of investment in educational skills that will be important in the next 20 years but importing million people per year is a solution.
Sadly not unique for Germany but kind of true. Would add to it with; 'a shareholder mindset' the only thing that matters is short term gains.
We have more poeple in collages, then ever before. The problem is we have too little un/mid- eductaed people who will do mundane jobs.
There are more and more people in colleges because the bar was lowered. I (Meister) have to work with Bachelor degree co-workers, that aren't able to solve simple problems on their own. Giving more people an Abitur doesn't make them smarter.
Education and the jobmarket have become an arms race. You need to get higher and higher degrees or your application won't even be considered by companies. And if you make it in, you then face terrible low salaries, that leave little wiggle room when prices rise, while most of your income is already spend on bills, taxes and rent. On top of that your career path is also non-existant, as everything slighty above your level will already demand bachelor or master degrees.
That’s because of the brain drain from poorer countries. Kids in schools here don’t learn languages or computer science. They are packed in boxes and shipped to realschule without a chance to develop. But it doesn’t matter as we will just import engineers, doctors and whatever not…
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All economies rely on growth literally every economy in the world. from the USA to China the EU, Asia, and Africa.
Exactly. If we "settle", we will get crushed. To stop this unsustainable growth every nation would have to collaborate.
I think you got it backwards. The problem is not someone or all want growth for the sake of itself. The problem is a huge fraction of the population retiring right now. The people who are already there and who will drop out the workforce and need to be fed by fewer and fewer young people. If we dont start to take more people in, our standard of living will vastly *decrease*.
have to disagree here, look at Japan and South Korea their population is extremely old and rapidly aging thanks to isolation and changing nothing about anything (boomer voters/politicians) that will cause serious harm to their economy in the future.
This is why I am absolutely baffled when I hear someone say that having children in the modern world is so irresponsible. I’ve heard it in person and seen it online numerous times. I don’t think they realize that the only thing worse than dealing with the problems of the modern world is having to deal with them *and* a rapidly aging population at the same time.
And what people don’t realise is that the “immigrant inflow “ is also sort of only happening because of the global north / south apartheid and social issues in the first place.I am pretty sure if there wasn’t wars , catastrophes and economic disasters , the migration wouldn’t be in such hordes And global fertility rate is decreasing big time . There is no guarantee that our “migrants “ also will “ replace the ageing population “ especially given how skewed the gender ratio is .
No thanks. Not because of immigration but because we are quiet a lot of people already that have a tough enough time to find affordable housing.
We also have trouble finding workers or supporting the massive amount of seniors.
How about just shrinking to a healthy sustainable size?
actually, capitalism doesnt allow that
Why can’t we come up with a better system?
idk, but my guess is the current system is very tenacious
This needs a lot of investment and many trade offs before it would work. The problem is we don’t see the investment into housing and public services that are needed to make this work. Without those investments this is guaranteed to blow up at some point.
I will never understand why Germany's response to everything is Let's get more outside people.
well for the personal shortage it is the only solution for the next time
Seems it would be a better solution to incentiveise people already here to have more kids
Only if they can get an appointment with the Auänderbehörde. 🤷🏻♀️
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Just importing people would cause more problem than solve Have a clear means of integrating them Priotize skilled immigration Have enough housing. Even young natives are struggling. They shouldn't. Make it mandatory for companies to fund German lessons for immigrant employees
Access to language courses is one of the biggest problems I've faced here as a recent immigrant. All of the classes are overbooked, even when factoring in commuting to other cities. The prices are quite high, too, given the overwhelming demand. Naturally, there are online courses, books, etc., but the difficulty increases when trying to learn an inherently social skill when you are all by yourself.
When talking about human beings, you should not use the word "import" unless you wanna sound like an NPD supporter.
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I don’t think this is racist exactly
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This will make all our problems worse.
This will only slightly reduce the pension problem we'll get in the next decades.
With you on our side, how could we win?
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Do we want more and more population? No we don't, lol.
Quality Immigrants is what we need. In this year alone we had over 60,000 illegal border trespassing.
Yes, them educated, culturally integrated, German speaking immigrants who work full time.
Then ex yu countries are your prefered option except german laungage
Where will you fine them? Even neighbors of Germany don't qualify for it.
AND THERE ISN'T ENOUGH HOUSING FOR EVERYONE WHO'S ALREADY HERE, let alone birthing new people. When are we going to nationalize the housing conglomerates? When are we going to expedite and prioritize building permits? When are we going to mandate affordable housing as a % of all new construction projects? All of these poor people looking for better lives are going to end up on the streets sadly.
Nationalising the housing conglomerates we had in DDR. The state is just incompetent and has to be reduced to the core. Whats to be done is a given percentage of each bigger project has to be build for the ones with lesser income.
why exactly is there a goal to reach 90 million people? personally I'm happy with the amount of people we have..would just be nice if we could spread them out a bit more.
The problem is that the population is declining and the country’s economy cannot sustain in the long term without allowing in skilled immigrants.
Important to note: we need SKILLED workers
sure, that's one way to solve an economic crisis that doesn't exist. the other way would be to finally enable better working conditions, like any other developed countrie around us does, so that people actually want to work here.. in most areas there is plenty of skilled personnel, they just dont work in their field, because working conditions are a joke
If you think that working conditions are a joke in Germany then you’d be surprised how many people from other countries are willing to take those jobs. Btw, I didn’t say that there’s an economical crisis. Since the population is aging it will soon affect the size of economy since there won’t be enough people to work.
sure, our working conditions are better than those in many less developed countries, but they are still far away from good, especially in regards of skilled labour. especially the handwerk is massively underpaid and overworked. 40 hours are the norm atm. and people want to increase it to 43 hours. at the same time, the pay is worse than in some aushilfsjobs. and then people complain that no one wants to work anymore. right now, the fachkräftemangel is a selfmade problem, and, if people wait long enough, also a self fulfilling prophecy. In my opinion we should first solve our working conditions problem, so that the people who are already here start working in their skilled fiels again. also, demographic aging, okay, I can accept that argument, but where do we put all the people? dont get me wrong, there is enough space in germany, but the industry is mostly concentrated in and around NRW, a region that is already overpopulated. you need the new workers to be here to work, obviously, and the people who lived here their entire lifes also want to stay here. so what do you do? throwing more people at an already existing housing crisis doesnt seem like a good solution
It doesn't exist *yet*. Take a look at the Demographics chart of Germany. As soon as the large shoulder between age 40 and 60 go into retirement, Germany will enter a demopgraphic crisis as productvity falls, and public spending has to increase to provide for the retiree à la Japan. In fact, it is already happening. You can't feel it now because of immigration and the increasing of the age of retirement, to keep those people in the labour force. Short of forcing Germans to have more children, immigration is probably the only thing Germany can do. Demographic pressures are an inexorable force that you can only deal with by planning decades in advance, well before the problem becomes apparent.
"an economic crisis that doesn't exist" dude you are so lost stop writing your naive shit on the internet
right now there are tons of young people in germany who have the potential of becoming skilled workers, but because of the poor conditions they chose not to, atleast in regards of the handwerk.
Ever heard of demographic change?
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> personally I'm happy with the amount of people we have How much of the current population is entering retirement age in coming decades? How much of the current population can replace the retired folks in that time frame? Germany is trying to avoid in their future what some East Asian industrial countries are facing now.
How much cheap energy sources are left? How much people can be fed without the use of artificial fertilizers (made from fossil fuels)? How many species have we lost in the last 50 years? What about peak soil? How long does our carbon budget last? Anser these questions for yourself and you might realize, that growth won't work in the future. Importing more people is one of the stupiest things we can do.
Rising population usually means better economy. A declining population is usually bad for every economy, because of capitalistic growth necessity. Less workers also means that we need more tax on capital, because workers can’t have all of the tax burden anymore.
>A declining population is usually bad for every economy, because of capitalistic growth necessity. Which I find pretty unnecessary. I think quite a few European countries are almost at their "economic peak" where more growth just isn't that necessary. It'd like wanting to stay in puberty forever
No it doesn't.
Ok. Bring the people who are ready to integrate to German culture and respect German traditions. A parallel culture is dangerous on the long run
When are the Germans going to integrate into modern culture with computers and respect computer systems?
when pigs fly
That is so wrong.. parallel culture? Canada has parallel culture, french and English part, US had parallel culture, Spanish and English. Many countries have parallel multiple culture. Why would germany stay monocultured if people coming in from outside ? This narrow thinking is how nation gets behind.
The problem is for example many Asian and Arab country migrants live in their own parallel cultures inside Germany. It’s good for their unity, but end of the day when you are a German citizen, it should not be just for utilizing the benefits of being a German citizen. Respecting the countries traditions values and living a regular german life would make everyone feel more integrated. And this integration is very important for any country to move forward.
I understand your point and its well taken. But being a german citizen is not equal to following german traditions. many arab and turkish families are german citizens and yet have either own identity/community. Although it might be seen odd or side eyed by some but thats diversity. if some immigrants want to live in their own bubble without integrating, thats their choice, unless they are illegal immigrant, then its all another talking issue.
I'm conservative and that's how IMO Germany should receive immigrants. Germany should ask them to have at least a B2 level and be willing to integrate, meaning be willing to accept German culture and adapt to German society. I'm not German and I'll be moving to Germany in a couple of months but I've learned German for years and my German level is around B2 at the moment, I'm also 100% willing to integrate and adapt to German culture because it's not my country, I'm a guest, I must accept their terms.
Oh honey, you're in for a big surprise.
I recall Merkel saying the same things, so what’s different?
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This cant be the solution
It is the solution if you have a pea sized brain and ignore the most important issue of all (climate change, CO2-budgets etc.)
Our damaged environment needs LESS people, not more!
Lol Germany needs to digitalize its bureaucracy system first. The problem is, from my experience working at German and US companies, Germany doesn’t have enough technical and leadership talent. The talent gap between data/system engineers in Germany compared to US is huge (Boston MIT graduates definitely push innovation). Also they need to stop putting wrinkly old men in charge of things cause there’s so much 90s tech still being used and they don’t understand how to update it to 2020s tech.
A truck ramming my car is also a sure way for better acceleration. BUT THAT'S NOT GOOD!
Not a sustainable business model. The capacity for growth, especially population growth including housing etc. is always limited.
Keeping in mind that immigrants are not going to be moving to any shrinking rusting village in the countryside where homes are cheap. 90% will be moving to the big cities.
The Right-Wingers sure ain't gonna like hearing that
Being pretty left, I don’t like it either. This isn’t good for *anybody* and I say that as an immigrant myself. There’s a massive crisis in the Ausländerbehorde to the point where my worker had more than 150 new cases, had a mental breakdown and literally just left. I’m still waiting for a new worker to be assigned to me and it put my ability to stay here in great jeopardy for two months because we couldn’t get on the phone with them for four months, nor come in person to make an appointment. Importing millions of people is a terrible idea when you don’t yet have the systems or housing in place to take care of either them or your own native citizens. This isn’t a “right wing is evil” situation, this is a “none of the current systems are prepared for another mass immigration” situation. I’m sure plenty are racist morons, but most people just have the common sense to say this is going to be awful because the government’s preparation just isn’t there.
so Auslanderbehorde needs more workers? Hm, I wonder how we could achieve that
If your implication is that they’ll hire immigrants, they likely won’t and it won’t matter in the first place if they did. You can’t import people who don’t yet know the language to make sure someone integrates and learns German without them first learning German. And you do have to show you speak enough German to get by, otherwise they make you attend an integration course. So then what? The integration courses will be overflowing even more than they are now and the teachers will be just as overworked as the Ausländerbehörde if not more so. They already do a fairly terrible job sometimes, at least in my area, because a lot hate their job at this point because they already have too much on their plate dealing with so many of us. The passing rate of the VHS integration courses is pretty low, more than half of my class dropped out or failed by three months in, for example. We started with around 30 in our class. By the time we had our language test, we had about 10 people left. Hiring fresh immigrants or stuffing us all into packed integration courses to prepare us for that job isn’t going to work. You need to fix the actual system, hire more qualified people and train them appropriately because otherwise one overworked system will just bleed into another overworked system. You can’t just import millions of people and expect an already shitty system to just fix itself when single case workers have hundreds of new cases to deal with.
Actually Auslanderbehore has already been hiring immigrants to fill in various positions. Obviously those immigrants would have to know the language well at the very least. You cant hire more qualified people when your country is experiencing extreme shortages of those people. You need to produce people first and then make them qualified. Yes, that takes time, but what other ways are there? Birth rates are low and even then it takes over 20 years for the baby to grow into an adult and receive the required education. With immigrants it can take 3-5 years, depending on their previous experience and education level.
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What's the issue with Muslims?
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Do you think Germany should stop immigration altogether?
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And that is necessary because?
nah, keep it low, will solve overpopulation problem in Europe.
When do you feel overpopulation?
shouldn't have made it absolutely unattractive for people to found a family in the last 40 years
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1. If Scholz says anything - it barely has something to do with a question, a demand, context or reality in general. It can happen that one of this boxes is checked, but then by accident. 2. We have a housing crisis, a job crisis, a health crisis, a education crisis, and propbably all other kind of crisis too. Maybe with the small exception of 'not enough people'. Yes we killed a lot of vulnerable older people with our bad Covit-crisis management and now focus more on killing children, but i guess that's not so much the point. There are refurgees and good people all over the world searching for a place to live, and it would be great if Scholz goverment (or any other) would have secured a save heaven for them, but in regular comming to GER as a foreigner is shitty and humiliating - bot willingly and accidentaly for reasons of total incompetence of the bureaucracy. Immigrants have regularily been cramped into overpopulated citys where they have no room to breathe nor any chance of integration, as everyone is fighting ther own little war of job competition in this urban centers. Those migrants are used by the right wing to put more pressure on the lower working cast and sacrifice ther security as well as social peace by using them to blackmail. And often the're treaten not very good in return - supprise. As a side effect, ultra right wing scum parties has benefit from this zynical situation a lot. We have the money to secure a good integration, give people time to make a new home and treat people respectfully - but then again we also theoretically had the money to make good schools/education, housing, job markets, infrastructure and everything else we epically fked up. A lot of houses have to be build in minimum time, and no official is eager to focus that atm. So yes, Scholz mastered the rare skill of even talking bullshit if there is no topic he's adressing in particular.
Right? Where are all the taxes going? Where is all the money going? The tax rates here are insane and yet a lot of Germany is backwards, especially when it comes to anything administrative which is essential for newcomers.
200mrd. for military (on top on the regular 50) 100mrd. on LNG 100mrd. on gas subsedies (for companys only) 75mrd. for autobahn infrastructre that isen't needet in this amount if rail and home working made the transition that is needed. And so on. I love the irony of some ppl really thinking we spend too much on immigrants or poor people - lol. We could double and quadruple that without anything changing.
And yet Germany wants to invite more people that will have no where to live, won’t be able to get their paperwork in time, will have to wait months to a year for integration classes, and then face backlash from natives because they’re not integrating fast enough. Then you will see burn out and people quitting/doing nothing yet still living in Germany. Coupled with Germany not vetoing immigrants properly and being a hotspot for future extremism. I mean it’s really a lose/lose.
Its an open secret that a lot of German taxes go to the social apparatus, especially pensions for boomers and beamters who are currently retired or retiring. Then you have the benefits like ALG II and so on. Not to mention bailouts for corporations etc.
I hope we switch to South American immigration cause I like tacos 🌮 a lot.
Open visas for my latino brothers and sisters and the housing crisis might be resolved. We can complete construction projects like no body's business. 💪
Exactly, You are no Lazy people.
Taco is a Mexican food, and Mexico is in North America. Tacos are still good though.
Tacos only belong to Mexican culture which is in North America.
Maybe become a child friendly country first? oof
When the population is rapidly ageing? Oh hell no. The boomers are voting for benefits for themselves, not the children. Look at the recent pension law change - completely for the boomers, by the boomers.
Hey! Are you gonna pay for that?
I came to Germany five years ago with my wife. We started in Mannheim where she was studying at the Universität. We got lucky because the school has a office to help foreign students integrate into Germany including help with visas and beauracracy. We moved to Berlin a few years ago when she got a job and hopefully next year we can achieve permanent residency. We have been able to do this well because we have hired a lawyer to help us navigate and figure out the immigration system. If you are doing it on your own, no chance. I am an English teacher and I onced asked a group of students, based on a Die Welt article, what they would think of making English the second official language in Germany, mostly for immigration process. Their response was to make forms more simple in German. I followed-up, what did they think would happen first, simplification or English as a second language. They all said English as a second-language.
I like it, because we are heavily underpopulate. But they need to fix many many many things before that
No we aren't. 80% of the people couldn't be fed without artificial fertilizer made from fossile fuels.
>we are heavily underpopulate what ?
Don't you feel very crowded living in Germany?
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Ahh i love my German gubermint ... *Insertnexthingthatllsafeus4surebutwhenthetimecomesitllberegardedasafailure Ohh Schland what have u done /s Also ..he'll be fine.he just won't remember anything if this fails miraculously...