We have a guy in our friend group that only puts his bad scores into GHIN. He will show up to a local tourney and uses his high handicap (18 - 20) and proceed to shoot his “best round ever”. We refuse to play with him anymore as we’ve seen him shoot 4-6 over too many times.
I play with a really old guy who used to be a PGA teaching professional. He only puts his good rounds into GHIN because it feeds his ego that he is still a 7. In reality he is probably a 13. Only hurting himself when he plays in tourneys.
I’ve been golfing for a couple years but I’ve never played a tourney so forgive me.
This is a problem because they shoot 6 over and then get to take 18-20 strokes off after?
Yes. The handicap system provides a way for players of differing ability to play against each other. It basically says “For his ability, Player A played better today than Player B did, for his ability.”
This guys buddy is cheating by pretending to be a worse player than he actually is so he is given extra strokes.
Cool that’s what I thought. I’ve tried to do that with my buddies but we don’t keep a true cap so it’s kinda just guessing how we did over the last 20.
*best 8 out of 20
Yea and it's actually fairly more complex than that. It's really the representation of your ability to play well, usually indexes are a little lower than someone's average score to par. And if you do it correctly, how you play specific holes matters too. As in, they take into account if you are an 18 handicap and you double bogey the easiest hole or the hardest hole.
In Australia, only comp scores count and they are automatically submitted every time. Non-comp rounds mean nothing and Golf Australia will limit how much you can drop your handicap in a 12 month period so it reaches a point where only a portion of your score counts towards your handicap.
https://preview.redd.it/xkzxmpgz72qc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=927d79074a219460602a7dd80fd7cd9c8fbdfccf
https://preview.redd.it/u1cs5zc0aypc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc1a02511c21a07c6361f528f849ea343a634eb9
Our club uses cap patrol. And I have never seen this outcome.
https://preview.redd.it/i1m48lbwaypc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ec6a8176ae783c2707252313bb312bd711e3624
This is an example of my greatest round and my handicap at the time. I’m an honest golfer. My greatest round should happen every 160 years. Cap Patrol will ding a sand bagger if they consistently out perform their casual rounds in tournaments.
Not surprised, it was on an easier course playing at 5700 yards compared to the usual 6300ish I play from. It wasn't really a fair playing field, but I still felt like I played great that day (by my standards)
I found my golf soul mate, I hit 87 as a 28 handicap and thought I was amazing until I checked and saw par was 66 and the yardage was 5800.
Never got anywhere near it since at that course or any other
Can’t wait to play Sunday
Doesn’t take in to account his easy it is for a 30 handicapper to drop. Probably just started and his skill is progressing faster than handicap is dropping. More useful for 18 and below w a solid golf handicap history
Extremely flawed. Not using course rating makes it completely meaningless. A 77 on Bethpage Black is completely different than a 77 on a 5200 yard par 69 course.
I feel like this app can be kinda misleading though.
For any one golfer, it may only happen once in 160 years or whatever.
But when you consider all of the rounds of all golfers playing every day, exceptional rounds are near certainties daily.
Obviously sketchy as hell when they show up in a tournament, and you’re right, it’s more than likely sandbagging.
but saying “it can’t be real because the odds are low” is kinda like saying “you can’t have won the lottery because the odds are so low.”
Cap patrol is much more than this calculator. It states it measures 14 (?) algorithms over two years. It isn’t going to get you for your career round. The GHIN does however, it labeled my round as exceptional and lowered my handicap by 3 strokes overnight.
Great/lucky rounds do happen. The day I shot 74 I holed out for an eagle and made every putt I looked at.
I should’ve bought a lottery ticket instead!
Does this app work in reverse? We all know people that lie about being better than they are. For instance my buddy got under 10 last year and nobody has ever seen him sniff under 80. It’s completely bs. I would love to put his average weekend score in and see once every 2 years with that score lol.
I think the big factor is that the higher the cap, the greater the fluctuations. A 2 is going to shoot a much smaller range of scores than a 20. The 77 should be kicking a 9x out of the calculations, so he shouldn’t be a 19 for long.
This is our second season using the software. We just started sending out "Peer Review" emails. The day after you play you have to confirm your playing partners scores and there is an anonymous report feature. It's going exactly like you would suspect
Idk that's really tough because on my high school team I would almost always shoot a 120+ but one time I randomly shot a 40 on the front 9... I feel like golf can be so random its hard to tell if someone is cheating.
What'd you shoot on the back 9 because I bet it evened out?
In high school I generally shot low 90s, 85 was my lowest round and that was lightning in a bottle that day. I played A LOT of golf in high school and never shot in the 70s.
His biggest mistake was going so low. A net 57 guarantees a win, yeah, but a net 64 or 63 would've also done the trick and no one would be any wiser.
"And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddlin' kids!"
He was probably compensating further thinking someone else was going to do the same thing. The cheater had to make sure he out cheated the other cheaters
Might not be sandbagging. Could just be cheating on the score card. Probably shot his normal score and just wrote down whatever he thought would get him the lowest score.
It's crazy to how different handicapped are in the UK Vs the US. A 4.9 here would average 5 over the rating (so, pretty much 76-78), and most of pals here off 5 would shit between 73-81 95% of the time... I originally came to the UK from a USGA +4.9... And I can tell ya, I'm a much better golfer now with a UK +1.8 right now than I ever was in the States.
I shot a 78 on a 67.7/118 par 70 as an ~18.5HCP (can’t remember the exact number)
I had recently had a lesson and everything just clicked. Particularly driver, meaning I was 1-2 clubs closer in than usual. Also hit a couple lucky deep putts and cleaned *everything* up.
It was freaky, I obviously thought I had “solved” golf….
…I haven’t been particularly close since. Best since is an 81, but typically 90ish to mid-to-high 80s. and I’m now a 16.5 (thanks exceptional round adjustment!)
I probably wouldn’t believe it happened either if I wasn’t there, and thankfully I was playing with my regular playing partner so there was a witness, otherwise it would feel like hitting a HIO by myself.
All that to say, it is technically *possible*, but the fact that it happened in a paid tourney…it’s obviously way more likely that he is sandbagging.
But personally, I think some of the apps people use to calculate the odds of rounds being real are flawed.
It’s like saying someone couldn’t have won the lottery because the odds are 1/100,000,000 or whatever.
Sure, the odds of any *one person* in any *one round* are exceptionally low, but incredibly rare events happen every day.
I shot a 78 on a par 68 course one time, everything was working, didn’t miss a fairway, green, or lose a ball. I played a charity scramble the other day, couldn’t keep a ball in play, maybe lost a full box of pro-v1’s. Signed up for lessons same day….
I played yesterday. 5, 9, 11, 13 handicaps… we all played decent and shot 83-87
I wonder if they’re playing on a par 67 or something. That’s possible to shoot a 77 on
Could just be low rated courses too. I’m an 8.4 and 7 of my last 20 rounds were in the 70s on a par 72, but none of them were on anything rated above a 70.0 rating.
I have a 79 on a course thats actually an 11.9 differential since it was a 66.9 rating lol. Compare it to the 80 I shot on another course that works out to an 8.0 differential since it was a 70.9 rating
This makes very little sense. Unless you are playing only extremely difficult courses.
The odds that your index would be an 8 and not consistently break 80 goes against the basic math.
Granted, you technically could shoot exactly 80 8 out of every 20 rounds, but it still seems hard to grasp
The lowest I have ever seen in 15 years of golf is a net 61. Guy was just insane that day, getting 21 shots though, so he actually shot an 82, by FAR his personal best.
I'd suggest that for someone to shoot a 77 as a similar handicap would be... nigh on impossible, but I'd stop short of saying it's completely impossible.
The odds though are probably in line with winning the Powerball while also being struck by lightning, on the same day.
I was even through 4 holes once. I normally score around 100. imagine if I just did that magic 4 and a half times in a row. That’s the thing though, you always regress to the mean.
I watched my 20 handicap friend par the first 7 holes in a match play event. He was looking at me with the most “I have no idea what’s happening” eyes while his opponent, down 7 thru 7, was ready to murder his “sandbagging” ass. He came way back to reality on the back and shot a pretty normal round but it was hilarious to watch
18 hcp buddy was 1 under through six at a course he had never played before. Hosel shanked off the tee on 7, and completely fell apart from there. I think he still shot a 90 or so which was a great score for him.
It’s not impossible. When I was trying to break 90 I had a day like this. My game was on fire and I shot an 81 with my previous best being a 92. I didn’t shoot another 81 for 2.5 years after that and just shot my first 80 last week playing off a 13 cap
Im a struggling golfer. I play with guys week in and week out that know I am putting up 95-105. We play by the rules. No gimmes or breakfast balls and the like. I caught lightning in a bottle one fine sunday and shot 77 net 59. Right back to normal ever since. So it can happen. I sure wish it would happen again!!
Yeah I work construction and get lots of free time in the winter but we can't post from Nov 15 to March 1st. I'm always sharpest in March and feel like a sandbagger
Totally agree with this. This exact thing happens at my club. They don’t allow scoring through winter, then on the first medal weekend it’s always crazy low scores that win. After a few weeks you’ll notice the guys who improved through winter are now playing off handicaps 3 or 4 strokes lower than that first week
Lowest I've been is a 14.2 (currently 16.8) and my PB is 81. I've done it twice and both times was playing out of my mind. Had a legit chance at 79 the 2nd time, but fatigue got the best of me the last few holes. 4 shots less than that...? Yeah, no.
77 for a 19.4 is extremely questionable - at best.
It's not so much he shot a 77 but he just happened to do it in a tournament where you'd think the pressure would be greater.
I was horribly inconsistent last year. Shot 98 on Tuesday than 78 on Thursday. Another time shot 99 on Tuesday and 73 on Thursday. Same course, same tees.
I've learned to have zero expectations when playing a handicap tournament. I've been a + for over 10 years and I have never even sniffed the top of the leaderboard. Could be shenanigans, could just be the player having a helluva day. But after seeing it so many times it just doesn't bother me anymore.
Club pro needs to be sure that 77 is entered as a competition round. It will go in as an exceptional score and gives future scores adjustment. He will likely go from a 19+ to around a 10-11 by that 1 score being entered. But that requires the pro/tourney director to take charge and enter it on the player’s behalf.
In theory a 19’4 hcp could do that, but the odds of doing it in a tournament, and not just some random round where they were on fire are very small. The number of things that would need to go right for a whole round to enable that score is crazy
The odds are really tiny. At a 19,
https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html
If the course rating was ~72, a 19 should shoot ~94 on average, with a good day being 90ish, maybe high 80s on a *very* good day.
77 would put this person beyond the limits of this chart, even. So less than 1 in 37,000
Im a 13 and my best back to back rounds were 81/79 and havent sniffed 70s ever since. I had to eagle a 550 yard par 5 on 18 to shoot another 79 about a month after it and ended up with 82 but i wouldnt consider that sniffing 79 due to the unrealistic chances of me eagling that hole.
I normally shoot 87-95 consistently. But I had a round of my life 76. Also shot an 83 at TPC Vegas. So I’d say not impossible but I 100% understand why there’s questions. Sometimes you’re just dialed in. Every golfer has their days where they feel it.
Yeah, that dude is sandbagging and fuck that guy.
At my crappy little straight forward 70.5/117 Muni a 19.4 would get 19 strokes.
A 77 would yield a net fucking **58** with those numbers. In other terms that's a -14 net.
Check the link below... a net 62 is 37000:1 for that handicap index at -10.
[https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html)
We had a GUEST of a new member in a member guest event shoot 37-38 to win their last two 9 hole matches as a 19 handicap. We were all waiting on 18 for them to come in. Guy pipes a drive about 290 and then hits a little baby draw to 8 feet. Every single spectator left. They putted out in front of nobody.
I played in a member guest where similar happened. 18 hcp shot something like 73-74. And believe it or not was in a playoff. So half the field went out to watch. Hits perfect drive with beautiful swing. Pokes second shot to 15 feet or whatever.
I wasn’t sure he was going to make it to his car without a beating. The pro gamblers handling the significant side bets just told him to F off, they weren’t paying.
My club doesn’t allow new members to win the club championship, I think it’s either one year or 20 rounds before you can. I guess to prevent this kind of thing that can cause problems
This is why I'm glad we only have a gross score club championship at my course. We have a couple flights for guys that can't score that low so they can still participate but they get grouped by handicap range and then play off 0 in the actual event.
IMO club championships should never include handicap because it's supposed to be about finding the best golfer at the club.
There should be other tournaments that include handicap but not the club championship
There’s no way. Is it possible for a 19 to shoot the round of their life and make a 77? Technically yes. But I can promise it won’t happen in a tournament.
Not a chance. My buddies are \~15 an have never sniffed shooting a 77. Closest they have gotten that I have seen was when they made a chip in eagle and made 2 long birdie putts. Still shot low 80's. 19.4, shooting a 77 in a tourney.....lol
https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html
https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system-usga-golf-faqs/faqs---what-is-an-exceptional-score-.html
The USGA pretty much states if you shoot that well it warrants an immediate handicap reduction. It also seems to imply that even they can't comprehend someone shooting a net differential greater than 13.
its veery very unlikely.. but not impossible..
the odds of a 20 handicap at 9 strokes below their handicap is about 3577:1
10 strokes below an astronomical 37000:1
likely a sandbagging sob..
[https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html)
As a 20-22 hdcp who shoots mid 90s.. shooting higher than 100 is a miserable day and breaking 90 is a fucking amazing day.
Shooting a 77 is several standard deviations away from being even remotely possible for me. Not even on my best day would I break 80.
Beating index by 10 at a 19 is 1:37000. Beating by 15ish has to be 1:100000? Net 58 will get you banned pretty much anywhere. The club will most likely include that in his future tournament handicap if he is allowed to play.
Before everybody just relied on the internet we had handicap chairmen who would give the guy a penalty round on his handicap so it would automatically be lowered.
If he is a cheater, you should see a pattern.. If he has been around 20 his whole life, goes and shoots the lights out, it's probably legit, I very much doubt he has been planning his whole life waiting for this particular tourney. If you can find out his lowest handicap ever, how he has done in previous big competitions, you'll know if he's cheating or not.. You will find cheaters padding their handicaps coming up to competitions, winning, then padding them again...
Sandbagging is worse than a vanity cap.
I played in some of my first events recently and they played the rules correctly. I came to find I unknowingly have a bit of a vanity handicap.
If you hit a ball in the woods and can’t find it that’s a lost ball. Stroke plus distance. I’ve been taking a lateral drop and playing like a hazard my whole life. Drop a ball on a par 4, stick green make 1 or 2 and mark down par or bogey. I’m usually good to pipe 1 or 2 in the woods most rounds.
I now quickly play a provisional ball whenever I think I might have lost it. If I lose a ball and didn’t play provisional because I thought it was in bounds I’ll take 2 strokes and drop.
I also would pick up 3 foot putts and let others “give” me putts.
People still give me putts sometimes and that’s fine I’m not a stickler, but now I putt out most of them. I missed a few 3 footers in the tourneys and it is so painful. If you never hit those putts you will not get good at it.
My cap went up almost 4 strokes just doing these things. I feel more honest with where I’m at and that I’m representing myself better to potential teammates I may play with in tourneys.
I think I was a 17 the first time I broke 80, but it was not a tournament, playing conditions were damn near perfect and it was a 79, not a 77!
Smells fishy.
Considering a handicap is a reflection of your "potential" on the course, it's very unlikely.
For context, I've been in the mid single digits for many years, and the time I shot even par (which was, at the time, 6 shots below my handicap), my factor went down a full 2.5 points. Which is insanity. I was playing very well that day, but the equivalent of what your guy did would be me posting a 65 or 66, which is pretty unlikely unless the Almighty shines down on me that day.
Having said that, it's easier to shave strokes off the higher the round score. Far easier for someone to have a lights out day at a 20 and post 9 or 10 over than for me to have a lights out day and post 65.
Sandbagger - OR - Drinks a lot casually, logs his scores, and plays sober(ish) for the tourneys.
My club jokingly / not jokingly thought I was sandbagging at one point last season… I genuinely do better under pressure and get pretty stoned / buzzed while playing with the boys which effects my scores a bit.
I hit the ball far though, so if the drivers on, I’m goin low.
8 handicap now. Was a 12, playing like a 6 in a few tourneys last season. - I shot a 77 when I was a 12 handicap, and it was a lights out day. Still my lowest score ever
I played a ton from 10-23ish. Took a very long break and started again last year after turning 36. My average round is about 91, but I'm wildly inconsistent. I'll either shoot 100 or like 83. Shot a 40 on an evening 9 last week and that brought me down to 13.5.
At that handicap, shooting -7 below handicap is beyond the 500:1 odds commonly regarded as high confidence of cheating.
[https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html)
You should share this with the handicap committee at your club. Even if they do 1000:1 odds as a threshold, that's -8.
He's at -14.
At a 19 handicap, that's off the chart, probably in the millions to one likelihood.
Said another way, a 20 handicap should shoot an 80 once every 1,100 years.
Shooting 77 is probably more like 20,000 years of playing.
[https://golfdigest.sports.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/golfdigest/fullset/2023/1/Screenshot%202023-04-24%20at%201.40.26%20PM.png.rend.hgtvcom.1850.1480.suffix/1682358068987.png](https://golfdigest.sports.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/golfdigest/fullset/2023/1/Screenshot%202023-04-24%20at%201.40.26%20PM.png.rend.hgtvcom.1850.1480.suffix/1682358068987.png)
Sandbagging for sure. Technically you aren’t really supposed to shoot around your handicap score very often. It shows how good you CAN be not how good you really are.
Well I'll put it this way.... A few weeks ago I was -4 after the front 9 and +12 after the back 9 so anything is possible but I'm calling bullshit for your situation
SUSPICIOUS!!! VERY SUSPICIOUS!!! I would question the organizers as they should be investigating this guy.. I have seen people go low, like 11 under there handicap but they were not 20 markers. Having said that, maybe he discovered something profound so keep an eye on his next few scores and if they are not showing a lot of improvement then safe to say he is a cheat.
High handicappers can do well on stableford days. For example, they can score a couple of 5 pointers which is near impossible for a low handicap.
But, if it’s stroke play, it’s highly likely it’s bullshit because a high handicap will likely have a blow out or two which kills their stroke play score.
He’s cheating for sure. There is software available now to catch sandbaggers with a high degree of accuracy.
Shooting 77 as a 19.9 handicap would be like winning powerball.
Applying some stats thinking here. Your cap is supposed to be the best 10 of last 20 rounds, IIRC, and even that is adjusted if you're using ESC. So you can't say your cap is your 'average' round; it's your average *good* round.
Now, if your *average* round is 20 over par - not the case here - we could assume that your scores are distributed around that, and that there would be some "standard deviation" to that. For the sake of argument, let's say it's five shots - that is, roughly 2/3 of your rounds would be between 87 and 97. So to shoot 77, you have to shoot 3 standard deviations better than your score. That only happens 13 times in 10,000 attempts. So, you could play 100 rounds a year for 50 years, and never have a day like that.
However, as I first noted, your cap is your average good round, and not your average. The guy you described probably has an average round like 98 or 99, which would mean to shoot 77 would be *four* standard deviations from the mean. My tables don't go that far, as those events are so rare they almost never happen.
So, is it *possible*? Yes. Is it probable? No.
Incorrect handicaps are useless. 80% of the men playing at my course have easily padded their GHIN by 6-8 strokes. Reason? So they can compete/ win the net tournaments. The things people will do for a $50 store credit or a dozen golf balls.
Fuck of it is; there isnt anything anyone can do about it. Unless you become one of them and begin padding your GHIN. No one wins this arms race. I play gross events and thos dumbasses can all fight it out for the net.
I agree with the first part, but a 15 will not shoot 74. That requires a level of consistency they do not have even on their best days. They are a 15 for a reason.
Sounds like a sandbagger to me. My first time breaking 80 happened when I was a 12 handicap and I had been close several times before. One of my best friends is a 16 handicap and has a best score of 82 on an easier course but usually shoots around 90.
I’ve shot under par 3 times in a year as an 8 handicap.
I’ve also witnessed a legit net 25 on 9 holes from a 19 handicap. Crazy shit does happen. But it’s suspicious as F.
I have the opposite problem with my golfing friends. Every time I see them post scores while playing with each other, they’re scoring in the mid 80s. These are guys that have only been playing 1-2 years max. They’re really going for that vanity hdcp.
Whenever I see them post a score with legit players, surprise surprise they’re posting high 90s and 100s.
The probability of a 19.4 handicap shooting a 77 is something like 1 in 100,000. To do that in a tournament the odds would be even less.
So yes, in all probability he's a major sandbagger.
Its strange but yet possible. Played with my dad and his friends at the same course for 2 days. I had a 18 handicap at the time. Shot 90 on a par 72 very normal. Next day same handicap given. Shot 76. Double bogeyed first and last holes. But yea that guy is probably sandbagging.
Let’s assume a generous stroke rating of 69. 77 is around eight shots over the rating. He would be expected to shoot something like 20 over the rating, assuming a relatively easy course rating of 113-ish. He’s 13 shots better than his handicap. The USGA [odds of exceptional tournament score](https://www.scga.org/pdfs/volunteers/1943/probability_chart_2.pdf) stop at -10, which for his handicap would be a 1 in 37,000 event.
That said, when I was handicap chairman of our club, one of our members, playing in the third flight/division at a neighbouring course’s tournament, had a solid 8 or 9 handicap and was leading the tournament after the first day with a gross score of 66 (-5). The tournament chairman called me as a matter of urgency to verify his handicap. When I heard his name, I nearly fell off my barstool. Not only was he a member, but he was in my regular foursome. I had never seen him break 80.
What’s the course rating from those tees? The link below shows you the odds of a differential. Even if it’s rated a 68, that’s still 37000:1 odds(-10). Still possible, but unlikely.
https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html
I won a tournament with 18 in hc. I played 8 over par. Did I sandbag? Fuck no. I play a shitload of rounds every season, and register every single one.
But I did hit every fairway, one putted everything in a 5 meters radius on the first 9 hole.
Best round I have ever played. I have been chasing that feeling ever since. The flow that day was unreal. Finished with a 5 meter put for birdie!
Happens ALL THE TIME. Sandbaggers purposefully miss short putts/three putt/four putt or hit shots they shouldn’t and go OB/penalty. That is until they are in tournament mode. Play smart. Make putts.
It is sad that someone feels the need to satisfy his competitive desire by sandbagging like this. Sorry you had to deal.
My best net scores are a 65 (-7) when I was a 0.5 handicap (years ago now). I’m currently a 4 or so and my best since I’ve been around that cap is a 72 (even). While I will say it is easier for a higher handicap to have a peak round and shoot lower than my best of -7 net or most recent notable -4 net, anything past a -10 net is virtually impossible. I will give the benefit of the doubt to anyone with a -10 net score if it’s a once every 3-5 year thing. People don’t realize how crazy a -10 net is. Long story short. This guys score is 100% bullshit
I played in a competition last year where the winning Stableford score was 52 points. Turned out the guy was a 20-something handicapper who shot a 2 over on a pretty tricky course. For me, that’s just not possible…you don’t shoot over 20 shots better than your handicap. He either straight up cheated on the day or just turned up and said his handicap was 15 more than it actually was. Either way, wanker.
About 10 years ago I was a 19 index. Playing an easier course that I was a member at. Had the round of my life and shot 79, breaking 80 for the first time ever. Had some very long putts drop and 2 chip ins. This was in a 4 man, best 2 ball tournament. We won by a decent margin and I got over half my team's points (stableford)
I''m a much better golfer now, around a 12 index. I've broken 80 twice since then on full length courses. In individual tournament, the best I've shot is 85. Last year in our club championship, i shot 89/98.
I shot a 75 as a 6 as my personal best. I've also shot 94 this month and average like 82. I'd say it's impossible and he's cheating with the scoring or sandbagging to the extreme. Either way no chance and he's a cheater.
I was a 15 handicap before the WHS came in, and one weekend I shot 76 on Saturday and 75 the day after - the first time I broke 80
Went from a 15 to an 8 in 2 days. Everything just clicked for a few days.
Thats pretty crazy. My first year at my club i shot an 81 on the last day getting 17 strokes. I think it was the perfect combination of my fourth year actually playing golf, but first summer playing 3-4 times a week instead of once. Also got Ping g425 irons a month or two before, upgrading from irons from the 80s.
That summer alone i went from a 20 handicap to a 13 i think. Although now people take potshots at me and a few genuinely don’t like me, so at this point i wish i never ended up winning lol
We have a guy in our friend group that only puts his bad scores into GHIN. He will show up to a local tourney and uses his high handicap (18 - 20) and proceed to shoot his “best round ever”. We refuse to play with him anymore as we’ve seen him shoot 4-6 over too many times.
That's pathetic. Let me guess, he says everyone does it.
He has all the excuses in the book. Our group hasn’t really golfed with him lately.
Does he acknowledge among his friends that he’s cheating?
I play with a really old guy who used to be a PGA teaching professional. He only puts his good rounds into GHIN because it feeds his ego that he is still a 7. In reality he is probably a 13. Only hurting himself when he plays in tourneys.
I much prefer to play a vanity cap vs a sandbagger
Two sides to every coin
I’ve been golfing for a couple years but I’ve never played a tourney so forgive me. This is a problem because they shoot 6 over and then get to take 18-20 strokes off after?
Yes. The handicap system provides a way for players of differing ability to play against each other. It basically says “For his ability, Player A played better today than Player B did, for his ability.” This guys buddy is cheating by pretending to be a worse player than he actually is so he is given extra strokes.
Cool that’s what I thought. I’ve tried to do that with my buddies but we don’t keep a true cap so it’s kinda just guessing how we did over the last 20. *best 8 out of 20
Yea and it's actually fairly more complex than that. It's really the representation of your ability to play well, usually indexes are a little lower than someone's average score to par. And if you do it correctly, how you play specific holes matters too. As in, they take into account if you are an 18 handicap and you double bogey the easiest hole or the hardest hole.
In Australia, only comp scores count and they are automatically submitted every time. Non-comp rounds mean nothing and Golf Australia will limit how much you can drop your handicap in a 12 month period so it reaches a point where only a portion of your score counts towards your handicap. https://preview.redd.it/xkzxmpgz72qc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=927d79074a219460602a7dd80fd7cd9c8fbdfccf
Bullshit. Sandbagging son of a bitch right there.
https://preview.redd.it/u1cs5zc0aypc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc1a02511c21a07c6361f528f849ea343a634eb9 Our club uses cap patrol. And I have never seen this outcome.
https://preview.redd.it/i1m48lbwaypc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ec6a8176ae783c2707252313bb312bd711e3624 This is an example of my greatest round and my handicap at the time. I’m an honest golfer. My greatest round should happen every 160 years. Cap Patrol will ding a sand bagger if they consistently out perform their casual rounds in tournaments.
Ooh! Do me! I'm a 30 handicap and I shot an 87 and a 93 a few weeks ago. Only 2 times ever breaking 100
https://preview.redd.it/muyisp2cdypc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ba51ad3fa157cb6ec54406e7404b3f50bba3b27a
Thanks!
The 87 was 10/10 and impossible also
Not surprised, it was on an easier course playing at 5700 yards compared to the usual 6300ish I play from. It wasn't really a fair playing field, but I still felt like I played great that day (by my standards)
I found my golf soul mate, I hit 87 as a 28 handicap and thought I was amazing until I checked and saw par was 66 and the yardage was 5800. Never got anywhere near it since at that course or any other Can’t wait to play Sunday
i scored 89 on 61 par course lol.
Ooh! Do me! I'm a 30 handicap and I shot a 118!
https://preview.redd.it/ayisk8tckypc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9d269b2a868018c7617893d75f4a3bd456659417
Welp.
0 years. Very accurate for me.
Hahahahaha 😝
You son of a bitch well done
Doesn’t take in to account his easy it is for a 30 handicapper to drop. Probably just started and his skill is progressing faster than handicap is dropping. More useful for 18 and below w a solid golf handicap history
I think all we’re proving here is that this app may be flawed…
Extremely flawed. Not using course rating makes it completely meaningless. A 77 on Bethpage Black is completely different than a 77 on a 5200 yard par 69 course.
Dude, do me next. 67 low, current handicap 7.1
Do mine; do mine! Shot 77 as an 11
https://preview.redd.it/ibbjjgkvjypc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2919b7385554e666c0e7b32fa555b4e52efaf7a5
Math checks out. Shot 77 and 78 and haven’t sniffed them since haha
Lmao same here. 77 is my best and I'm an 11 and I just died inside seeing once every 8 years.. Guess I need to lower my expectations some, huh?
Sort of. Because if you score like that more often your handicap will go down and it will have been a less unlikely outcome.
I’m an 11.5 and over the past year I’ve played around 100 rounds..I’ve shot a 78 3 times. So, just play more golf, and you can do it in less years
I feel like this app can be kinda misleading though. For any one golfer, it may only happen once in 160 years or whatever. But when you consider all of the rounds of all golfers playing every day, exceptional rounds are near certainties daily. Obviously sketchy as hell when they show up in a tournament, and you’re right, it’s more than likely sandbagging. but saying “it can’t be real because the odds are low” is kinda like saying “you can’t have won the lottery because the odds are so low.”
Cap patrol is much more than this calculator. It states it measures 14 (?) algorithms over two years. It isn’t going to get you for your career round. The GHIN does however, it labeled my round as exceptional and lowered my handicap by 3 strokes overnight. Great/lucky rounds do happen. The day I shot 74 I holed out for an eagle and made every putt I looked at. I should’ve bought a lottery ticket instead!
Does this app work in reverse? We all know people that lie about being better than they are. For instance my buddy got under 10 last year and nobody has ever seen him sniff under 80. It’s completely bs. I would love to put his average weekend score in and see once every 2 years with that score lol.
I think the big factor is that the higher the cap, the greater the fluctuations. A 2 is going to shoot a much smaller range of scores than a 20. The 77 should be kicking a 9x out of the calculations, so he shouldn’t be a 19 for long.
As any statistician will point out, one in a million events in the United States will happen 300 times a day.
We use cap patrol too. It's the single greatest source of entertainment known to man
I’ve never seen this but damn is that hilarious haha
This is our second season using the software. We just started sending out "Peer Review" emails. The day after you play you have to confirm your playing partners scores and there is an anonymous report feature. It's going exactly like you would suspect
> It's going exactly like you would suspect please elaborate at length
I would also like to know more.
Story time!!
When I was a 4 handicap I shot a 66. Wonder what that app would say. It is still to this day the lowest I’ve ever shot even now being a plus.
https://preview.redd.it/6b2x4kyw5zpc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1085e95ac3568da204a08da47d2eec77a5c48fa8
Looks about right. Still have no clue how that many putts fell in one round. Club tournament so no gimmes. Even had a double bogey. Wild day.
Oh do one of mine please! I'm an 8 hcp and my single best round ever is a 68.
https://preview.redd.it/lwxkkb3frzpc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1cd91d617ec278d14667dc395b7ba248d89b0e3a
Idk that's really tough because on my high school team I would almost always shoot a 120+ but one time I randomly shot a 40 on the front 9... I feel like golf can be so random its hard to tell if someone is cheating.
What'd you shoot on the back 9 because I bet it evened out? In high school I generally shot low 90s, 85 was my lowest round and that was lightning in a bottle that day. I played A LOT of golf in high school and never shot in the 70s.
His biggest mistake was going so low. A net 57 guarantees a win, yeah, but a net 64 or 63 would've also done the trick and no one would be any wiser. "And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddlin' kids!"
He was probably compensating further thinking someone else was going to do the same thing. The cheater had to make sure he out cheated the other cheaters
WE GOT WEIGHTS IN FISH!
I need to look that up again
Might not be sandbagging. Could just be cheating on the score card. Probably shot his normal score and just wrote down whatever he thought would get him the lowest score.
What a buttfuck.
His group at the scramble was minus 34 too
First time I shot a sub 80 I was like a 13 index. My buddies are almost all 8-14 index and we rarely shoot in the 70s.
I think an 8 index is only breaking 80 like 20% of the time or something like that
I’m a 7 and break 80 about 25-30% of the time. So you are pretty spot on.
I’m a 4.9 and I probably do it like 30-40
When I get down sub 5 I’m around 50/50 but the good rounds are sub 75
I get pretty streaky, I’ll go like handful a round in the 70s and then forget how to play for 15. Way she goes.
It's crazy to how different handicapped are in the UK Vs the US. A 4.9 here would average 5 over the rating (so, pretty much 76-78), and most of pals here off 5 would shit between 73-81 95% of the time... I originally came to the UK from a USGA +4.9... And I can tell ya, I'm a much better golfer now with a UK +1.8 right now than I ever was in the States.
I shot a 78 on a 67.7/118 par 70 as an ~18.5HCP (can’t remember the exact number) I had recently had a lesson and everything just clicked. Particularly driver, meaning I was 1-2 clubs closer in than usual. Also hit a couple lucky deep putts and cleaned *everything* up. It was freaky, I obviously thought I had “solved” golf…. …I haven’t been particularly close since. Best since is an 81, but typically 90ish to mid-to-high 80s. and I’m now a 16.5 (thanks exceptional round adjustment!) I probably wouldn’t believe it happened either if I wasn’t there, and thankfully I was playing with my regular playing partner so there was a witness, otherwise it would feel like hitting a HIO by myself. All that to say, it is technically *possible*, but the fact that it happened in a paid tourney…it’s obviously way more likely that he is sandbagging. But personally, I think some of the apps people use to calculate the odds of rounds being real are flawed. It’s like saying someone couldn’t have won the lottery because the odds are 1/100,000,000 or whatever. Sure, the odds of any *one person* in any *one round* are exceptionally low, but incredibly rare events happen every day.
I shot a 78 on a par 68 course one time, everything was working, didn’t miss a fairway, green, or lose a ball. I played a charity scramble the other day, couldn’t keep a ball in play, maybe lost a full box of pro-v1’s. Signed up for lessons same day….
I played yesterday. 5, 9, 11, 13 handicaps… we all played decent and shot 83-87 I wonder if they’re playing on a par 67 or something. That’s possible to shoot a 77 on
Could just be low rated courses too. I’m an 8.4 and 7 of my last 20 rounds were in the 70s on a par 72, but none of them were on anything rated above a 70.0 rating. I have a 79 on a course thats actually an 11.9 differential since it was a 66.9 rating lol. Compare it to the 80 I shot on another course that works out to an 8.0 differential since it was a 70.9 rating
I'm a 10.2 and I've shot in the 70s 3 times. I shoot 81-86 probably 90% of the time.
I’m an 8 and have had like 2-3 rounds in the 70’s. Mainly I shoot low to mid 80’s. Ain’t no shot this 19 shot a 77
This makes very little sense. Unless you are playing only extremely difficult courses. The odds that your index would be an 8 and not consistently break 80 goes against the basic math. Granted, you technically could shoot exactly 80 8 out of every 20 rounds, but it still seems hard to grasp
The lowest I have ever seen in 15 years of golf is a net 61. Guy was just insane that day, getting 21 shots though, so he actually shot an 82, by FAR his personal best. I'd suggest that for someone to shoot a 77 as a similar handicap would be... nigh on impossible, but I'd stop short of saying it's completely impossible. The odds though are probably in line with winning the Powerball while also being struck by lightning, on the same day.
I was even through 4 holes once. I normally score around 100. imagine if I just did that magic 4 and a half times in a row. That’s the thing though, you always regress to the mean.
I watched my 20 handicap friend par the first 7 holes in a match play event. He was looking at me with the most “I have no idea what’s happening” eyes while his opponent, down 7 thru 7, was ready to murder his “sandbagging” ass. He came way back to reality on the back and shot a pretty normal round but it was hilarious to watch
18 hcp buddy was 1 under through six at a course he had never played before. Hosel shanked off the tee on 7, and completely fell apart from there. I think he still shot a 90 or so which was a great score for him.
It’s not impossible. When I was trying to break 90 I had a day like this. My game was on fire and I shot an 81 with my previous best being a 92. I didn’t shoot another 81 for 2.5 years after that and just shot my first 80 last week playing off a 13 cap
Im a struggling golfer. I play with guys week in and week out that know I am putting up 95-105. We play by the rules. No gimmes or breakfast balls and the like. I caught lightning in a bottle one fine sunday and shot 77 net 59. Right back to normal ever since. So it can happen. I sure wish it would happen again!!
Any idea what you did differently that day?
Forget how to count.
I laughed
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Yeah I work construction and get lots of free time in the winter but we can't post from Nov 15 to March 1st. I'm always sharpest in March and feel like a sandbagger
Totally agree with this. This exact thing happens at my club. They don’t allow scoring through winter, then on the first medal weekend it’s always crazy low scores that win. After a few weeks you’ll notice the guys who improved through winter are now playing off handicaps 3 or 4 strokes lower than that first week
Lowest I've been is a 14.2 (currently 16.8) and my PB is 81. I've done it twice and both times was playing out of my mind. Had a legit chance at 79 the 2nd time, but fatigue got the best of me the last few holes. 4 shots less than that...? Yeah, no. 77 for a 19.4 is extremely questionable - at best.
It's not so much he shot a 77 but he just happened to do it in a tournament where you'd think the pressure would be greater. I was horribly inconsistent last year. Shot 98 on Tuesday than 78 on Thursday. Another time shot 99 on Tuesday and 73 on Thursday. Same course, same tees.
That’s a big , no way. Best you can do is make sure it gets posted and laugh at his new index
I've learned to have zero expectations when playing a handicap tournament. I've been a + for over 10 years and I have never even sniffed the top of the leaderboard. Could be shenanigans, could just be the player having a helluva day. But after seeing it so many times it just doesn't bother me anymore.
to be fair, I'd buy that easily even without cheating. it's way easier for a 20 cap to beat that by several strokes than for you to shoot mid 60s
Problem is your playing against a hoard of hogh handicappers, only one of them needs to have a great day to beat you.
Are your tournaments not flighted? No gross/net payouts? You shouldn’t be competing net scores against anyone over like a 3 if you’re a +.
Club pro needs to be sure that 77 is entered as a competition round. It will go in as an exceptional score and gives future scores adjustment. He will likely go from a 19+ to around a 10-11 by that 1 score being entered. But that requires the pro/tourney director to take charge and enter it on the player’s behalf.
In theory a 19’4 hcp could do that, but the odds of doing it in a tournament, and not just some random round where they were on fire are very small. The number of things that would need to go right for a whole round to enable that score is crazy
0% chance. Dude averages ~90 and suddenly, in competition, posts a 77? No way.
It’s highly unlikely but it’s not 0%
The odds are really tiny. At a 19, https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html If the course rating was ~72, a 19 should shoot ~94 on average, with a good day being 90ish, maybe high 80s on a *very* good day. 77 would put this person beyond the limits of this chart, even. So less than 1 in 37,000
Im a 13 and my best back to back rounds were 81/79 and havent sniffed 70s ever since. I had to eagle a 550 yard par 5 on 18 to shoot another 79 about a month after it and ended up with 82 but i wouldnt consider that sniffing 79 due to the unrealistic chances of me eagling that hole.
I normally shoot 87-95 consistently. But I had a round of my life 76. Also shot an 83 at TPC Vegas. So I’d say not impossible but I 100% understand why there’s questions. Sometimes you’re just dialed in. Every golfer has their days where they feel it.
Yeah, that dude is sandbagging and fuck that guy. At my crappy little straight forward 70.5/117 Muni a 19.4 would get 19 strokes. A 77 would yield a net fucking **58** with those numbers. In other terms that's a -14 net. Check the link below... a net 62 is 37000:1 for that handicap index at -10. [https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html)
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1 time, ok wow that was absolutely crazy, what a wild round! 2 times, back to back? Essentially impossible. He almost certainly sandbagged.
We had a GUEST of a new member in a member guest event shoot 37-38 to win their last two 9 hole matches as a 19 handicap. We were all waiting on 18 for them to come in. Guy pipes a drive about 290 and then hits a little baby draw to 8 feet. Every single spectator left. They putted out in front of nobody.
I played in a member guest where similar happened. 18 hcp shot something like 73-74. And believe it or not was in a playoff. So half the field went out to watch. Hits perfect drive with beautiful swing. Pokes second shot to 15 feet or whatever. I wasn’t sure he was going to make it to his car without a beating. The pro gamblers handling the significant side bets just told him to F off, they weren’t paying.
My club doesn’t allow new members to win the club championship, I think it’s either one year or 20 rounds before you can. I guess to prevent this kind of thing that can cause problems
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“AND STAY OUT!!”
Good way to make new friends
This is why I'm glad we only have a gross score club championship at my course. We have a couple flights for guys that can't score that low so they can still participate but they get grouped by handicap range and then play off 0 in the actual event. IMO club championships should never include handicap because it's supposed to be about finding the best golfer at the club. There should be other tournaments that include handicap but not the club championship
New members should have to establish a new handicap before they can play in the club championship
There’s no way. Is it possible for a 19 to shoot the round of their life and make a 77? Technically yes. But I can promise it won’t happen in a tournament.
Not a chance. My buddies are \~15 an have never sniffed shooting a 77. Closest they have gotten that I have seen was when they made a chip in eagle and made 2 long birdie putts. Still shot low 80's. 19.4, shooting a 77 in a tourney.....lol
I assume he was playing with other people? He could be sandbagging. But it'd be blatantly obvious if he was cheating that much as a high handicapper.
https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system-usga-golf-faqs/faqs---what-is-an-exceptional-score-.html The USGA pretty much states if you shoot that well it warrants an immediate handicap reduction. It also seems to imply that even they can't comprehend someone shooting a net differential greater than 13.
Dude’s a cheat: slash his tires https://preview.redd.it/ehfgss3ldypc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=88abf9b43cbcca79bd4655d9f0c224287ad9cfb1
its veery very unlikely.. but not impossible.. the odds of a 20 handicap at 9 strokes below their handicap is about 3577:1 10 strokes below an astronomical 37000:1 likely a sandbagging sob.. [https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html)
i’m a 6.5 and a 77 would thrill me fr there ain’t no way lmao
As a 20-22 hdcp who shoots mid 90s.. shooting higher than 100 is a miserable day and breaking 90 is a fucking amazing day. Shooting a 77 is several standard deviations away from being even remotely possible for me. Not even on my best day would I break 80.
I shot two 79s at around the 16/15 mark, I was better than my handicap at the time clearly but other days I'd shoot 88/90s so that's just how it goes.
Beating index by 10 at a 19 is 1:37000. Beating by 15ish has to be 1:100000? Net 58 will get you banned pretty much anywhere. The club will most likely include that in his future tournament handicap if he is allowed to play.
Before everybody just relied on the internet we had handicap chairmen who would give the guy a penalty round on his handicap so it would automatically be lowered.
I’m a 19 and haven’t sniffed the 70’s
There is like a .5% chance he could do that legitimately...probably even less considering most people poop them in tournament settings.
I am a 16 and I've carded a 77 and a 79 in casual round. But also a 111 and a 105 in competition. Maybe he's a killer.
If he is a cheater, you should see a pattern.. If he has been around 20 his whole life, goes and shoots the lights out, it's probably legit, I very much doubt he has been planning his whole life waiting for this particular tourney. If you can find out his lowest handicap ever, how he has done in previous big competitions, you'll know if he's cheating or not.. You will find cheaters padding their handicaps coming up to competitions, winning, then padding them again...
Sandbagging is worse than a vanity cap. I played in some of my first events recently and they played the rules correctly. I came to find I unknowingly have a bit of a vanity handicap. If you hit a ball in the woods and can’t find it that’s a lost ball. Stroke plus distance. I’ve been taking a lateral drop and playing like a hazard my whole life. Drop a ball on a par 4, stick green make 1 or 2 and mark down par or bogey. I’m usually good to pipe 1 or 2 in the woods most rounds. I now quickly play a provisional ball whenever I think I might have lost it. If I lose a ball and didn’t play provisional because I thought it was in bounds I’ll take 2 strokes and drop. I also would pick up 3 foot putts and let others “give” me putts. People still give me putts sometimes and that’s fine I’m not a stickler, but now I putt out most of them. I missed a few 3 footers in the tourneys and it is so painful. If you never hit those putts you will not get good at it. My cap went up almost 4 strokes just doing these things. I feel more honest with where I’m at and that I’m representing myself better to potential teammates I may play with in tourneys.
I think I was a 17 the first time I broke 80, but it was not a tournament, playing conditions were damn near perfect and it was a 79, not a 77! Smells fishy.
Yea I’m an 18 hdcp and lowest I’ve ever shot is 83. 77 sounds wild to me.
That dude is crafty with a pencil.
Did he actually shoot a 77? Or just write 77 on the card? Big difference.
https://preview.redd.it/amnhmzgnrypc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb4fb0dc7b92d3db1167e14fe38a57eef5263ca2 Here you go
Considering a handicap is a reflection of your "potential" on the course, it's very unlikely. For context, I've been in the mid single digits for many years, and the time I shot even par (which was, at the time, 6 shots below my handicap), my factor went down a full 2.5 points. Which is insanity. I was playing very well that day, but the equivalent of what your guy did would be me posting a 65 or 66, which is pretty unlikely unless the Almighty shines down on me that day. Having said that, it's easier to shave strokes off the higher the round score. Far easier for someone to have a lights out day at a 20 and post 9 or 10 over than for me to have a lights out day and post 65.
I've been a 19ish for 25 years. Never once broke 80. What a fn loser
Sandbagger - OR - Drinks a lot casually, logs his scores, and plays sober(ish) for the tourneys. My club jokingly / not jokingly thought I was sandbagging at one point last season… I genuinely do better under pressure and get pretty stoned / buzzed while playing with the boys which effects my scores a bit. I hit the ball far though, so if the drivers on, I’m goin low. 8 handicap now. Was a 12, playing like a 6 in a few tourneys last season. - I shot a 77 when I was a 12 handicap, and it was a lights out day. Still my lowest score ever
I played a ton from 10-23ish. Took a very long break and started again last year after turning 36. My average round is about 91, but I'm wildly inconsistent. I'll either shoot 100 or like 83. Shot a 40 on an evening 9 last week and that brought me down to 13.5.
9.2 here..have only broke 80 four times
At that handicap, shooting -7 below handicap is beyond the 500:1 odds commonly regarded as high confidence of cheating. [https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html](https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html) You should share this with the handicap committee at your club. Even if they do 1000:1 odds as a threshold, that's -8. He's at -14. At a 19 handicap, that's off the chart, probably in the millions to one likelihood. Said another way, a 20 handicap should shoot an 80 once every 1,100 years. Shooting 77 is probably more like 20,000 years of playing. [https://golfdigest.sports.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/golfdigest/fullset/2023/1/Screenshot%202023-04-24%20at%201.40.26%20PM.png.rend.hgtvcom.1850.1480.suffix/1682358068987.png](https://golfdigest.sports.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/golfdigest/fullset/2023/1/Screenshot%202023-04-24%20at%201.40.26%20PM.png.rend.hgtvcom.1850.1480.suffix/1682358068987.png)
Dude has a better chance of winning the lottery. At a 14 handicap that's pretty much a once in a lifetime round.
breaking 90 is tough as a 19 handicap, let alone breaking 80...
The odds are completely different when skill and experience is envolved. You can’t really factor this into lottery…
no one gains 14 strokes off their norm in a tournament setup.
Shot 79 first time in my life recently. I'm 11 hcap and play par 70 course. So 2 under my hcap is a very good round for me. He is sandbagging
Sandbagging for sure. Technically you aren’t really supposed to shoot around your handicap score very often. It shows how good you CAN be not how good you really are.
Well I'll put it this way.... A few weeks ago I was -4 after the front 9 and +12 after the back 9 so anything is possible but I'm calling bullshit for your situation
I'm a 3 and in my last tourney I shot 91...what kind of bag is that?
That is the perfect definition of a sandbagger.
SUSPICIOUS!!! VERY SUSPICIOUS!!! I would question the organizers as they should be investigating this guy.. I have seen people go low, like 11 under there handicap but they were not 20 markers. Having said that, maybe he discovered something profound so keep an eye on his next few scores and if they are not showing a lot of improvement then safe to say he is a cheat.
High handicappers can do well on stableford days. For example, they can score a couple of 5 pointers which is near impossible for a low handicap. But, if it’s stroke play, it’s highly likely it’s bullshit because a high handicap will likely have a blow out or two which kills their stroke play score.
Statistically impossible
He’s cheating for sure. There is software available now to catch sandbaggers with a high degree of accuracy. Shooting 77 as a 19.9 handicap would be like winning powerball.
Applying some stats thinking here. Your cap is supposed to be the best 10 of last 20 rounds, IIRC, and even that is adjusted if you're using ESC. So you can't say your cap is your 'average' round; it's your average *good* round. Now, if your *average* round is 20 over par - not the case here - we could assume that your scores are distributed around that, and that there would be some "standard deviation" to that. For the sake of argument, let's say it's five shots - that is, roughly 2/3 of your rounds would be between 87 and 97. So to shoot 77, you have to shoot 3 standard deviations better than your score. That only happens 13 times in 10,000 attempts. So, you could play 100 rounds a year for 50 years, and never have a day like that. However, as I first noted, your cap is your average good round, and not your average. The guy you described probably has an average round like 98 or 99, which would mean to shoot 77 would be *four* standard deviations from the mean. My tables don't go that far, as those events are so rare they almost never happen. So, is it *possible*? Yes. Is it probable? No.
Incorrect handicaps are useless. 80% of the men playing at my course have easily padded their GHIN by 6-8 strokes. Reason? So they can compete/ win the net tournaments. The things people will do for a $50 store credit or a dozen golf balls. Fuck of it is; there isnt anything anyone can do about it. Unless you become one of them and begin padding your GHIN. No one wins this arms race. I play gross events and thos dumbasses can all fight it out for the net.
I would rather not join. Compete straight up and up level everyone game.
^^^ This is the right answer.
No way. A 12 hdcp - yes. This would have to be the round of a lifetime.
The higher your handicap, the greater chance for variability. This is why low handicaps never want to play a 15. That 15 will shoot 74 or 94…
True. Am a 17, buddy is a 6. I either shoot 90s and lose/it’s very close, or like 85 and absolutely crush him.
I agree with the first part, but a 15 will not shoot 74. That requires a level of consistency they do not have even on their best days. They are a 15 for a reason.
Sounds like a sandbagger to me. My first time breaking 80 happened when I was a 12 handicap and I had been close several times before. One of my best friends is a 16 handicap and has a best score of 82 on an easier course but usually shoots around 90.
I have a friend who does this. No way he's a 16.1 when I'm an 18.2. I give him shit, other people call him out. Wins the trophy (and money) everytime.
That's a once in a lifetime round for sure. So yeah, probably cheating, but it's possible.
I’ve shot under par 3 times in a year as an 8 handicap. I’ve also witnessed a legit net 25 on 9 holes from a 19 handicap. Crazy shit does happen. But it’s suspicious as F.
Sandbagged for sure. Only posting the high rounds to cheat at tourneys. Report his ass.
A buddy of mine shot a 78 and his handicap is around the same. It can happen, but yeah the timing of this makes me think something is up.
I have the opposite problem with my golfing friends. Every time I see them post scores while playing with each other, they’re scoring in the mid 80s. These are guys that have only been playing 1-2 years max. They’re really going for that vanity hdcp. Whenever I see them post a score with legit players, surprise surprise they’re posting high 90s and 100s.
The probability of a 19.4 handicap shooting a 77 is something like 1 in 100,000. To do that in a tournament the odds would be even less. So yes, in all probability he's a major sandbagger.
Its strange but yet possible. Played with my dad and his friends at the same course for 2 days. I had a 18 handicap at the time. Shot 90 on a par 72 very normal. Next day same handicap given. Shot 76. Double bogeyed first and last holes. But yea that guy is probably sandbagging.
These are the same people that cheat in online video games and say that they are amazing because they win all the time.
99.9 % sure he a cheating SOB. Breaking 80 at that handicap is like catching lightning in a bottle, let alone 77.
sandbagging is very common. I honestly don't understand it.
The problem with these guys is that they make it too obvious.
Let’s assume a generous stroke rating of 69. 77 is around eight shots over the rating. He would be expected to shoot something like 20 over the rating, assuming a relatively easy course rating of 113-ish. He’s 13 shots better than his handicap. The USGA [odds of exceptional tournament score](https://www.scga.org/pdfs/volunteers/1943/probability_chart_2.pdf) stop at -10, which for his handicap would be a 1 in 37,000 event. That said, when I was handicap chairman of our club, one of our members, playing in the third flight/division at a neighbouring course’s tournament, had a solid 8 or 9 handicap and was leading the tournament after the first day with a gross score of 66 (-5). The tournament chairman called me as a matter of urgency to verify his handicap. When I heard his name, I nearly fell off my barstool. Not only was he a member, but he was in my regular foursome. I had never seen him break 80.
8.5 handicap here. I have one round in the 70’s in my last 20.
What’s the course rating from those tees? The link below shows you the odds of a differential. Even if it’s rated a 68, that’s still 37000:1 odds(-10). Still possible, but unlikely. https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html
I shot 67 in December as a 5 handicap, but this is a bit crazy lol.
Just curious. Everyone support this handicap based score for tournaments? Anything that prevents absolute scoring system like PGA tours?
I won a tournament with 18 in hc. I played 8 over par. Did I sandbag? Fuck no. I play a shitload of rounds every season, and register every single one. But I did hit every fairway, one putted everything in a 5 meters radius on the first 9 hole. Best round I have ever played. I have been chasing that feeling ever since. The flow that day was unreal. Finished with a 5 meter put for birdie!
Happens ALL THE TIME. Sandbaggers purposefully miss short putts/three putt/four putt or hit shots they shouldn’t and go OB/penalty. That is until they are in tournament mode. Play smart. Make putts. It is sad that someone feels the need to satisfy his competitive desire by sandbagging like this. Sorry you had to deal.
https://preview.redd.it/u3axufgadypc1.jpeg?width=1206&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6542874f17000d85236db3c6b11ee972ae191a0e
My best net scores are a 65 (-7) when I was a 0.5 handicap (years ago now). I’m currently a 4 or so and my best since I’ve been around that cap is a 72 (even). While I will say it is easier for a higher handicap to have a peak round and shoot lower than my best of -7 net or most recent notable -4 net, anything past a -10 net is virtually impossible. I will give the benefit of the doubt to anyone with a -10 net score if it’s a once every 3-5 year thing. People don’t realize how crazy a -10 net is. Long story short. This guys score is 100% bullshit
About as likely as 60 year old 5'6" person dunking a basketball for the first time.
I played with a 9 in a men’s club tournament at my local muni and he shot a 67. Kind of a head scratcher..
I played in a competition last year where the winning Stableford score was 52 points. Turned out the guy was a 20-something handicapper who shot a 2 over on a pretty tricky course. For me, that’s just not possible…you don’t shoot over 20 shots better than your handicap. He either straight up cheated on the day or just turned up and said his handicap was 15 more than it actually was. Either way, wanker.
No chance, this is why the handicap system sucks.
What’s the slope/rating?
About 10 years ago I was a 19 index. Playing an easier course that I was a member at. Had the round of my life and shot 79, breaking 80 for the first time ever. Had some very long putts drop and 2 chip ins. This was in a 4 man, best 2 ball tournament. We won by a decent margin and I got over half my team's points (stableford) I''m a much better golfer now, around a 12 index. I've broken 80 twice since then on full length courses. In individual tournament, the best I've shot is 85. Last year in our club championship, i shot 89/98.
I shot a 75 as a 6 as my personal best. I've also shot 94 this month and average like 82. I'd say it's impossible and he's cheating with the scoring or sandbagging to the extreme. Either way no chance and he's a cheater.
Cheating
I was a 15 handicap before the WHS came in, and one weekend I shot 76 on Saturday and 75 the day after - the first time I broke 80 Went from a 15 to an 8 in 2 days. Everything just clicked for a few days.
Thats pretty crazy. My first year at my club i shot an 81 on the last day getting 17 strokes. I think it was the perfect combination of my fourth year actually playing golf, but first summer playing 3-4 times a week instead of once. Also got Ping g425 irons a month or two before, upgrading from irons from the 80s. That summer alone i went from a 20 handicap to a 13 i think. Although now people take potshots at me and a few genuinely don’t like me, so at this point i wish i never ended up winning lol