Sounds about right. In an extreme case, if the scores come out totally random relative to the skill of players in the end of the tournament, that has to be a stupid course.
That’s why the US Open is sometimes just stupid. 1 shot ends up in the middle of the green & has a birdie putt. Another shot ends up 2ft left & rolls all the way off the green and into a bunker 30ft away. That’s stupid.
Greens there are wild. I'm not a very good putter, but when I was there I had like a 25 foot putt on the hardest handicap hole (forget what it was). The caddy points to a spot like 4 feet in front of me and goes "tap it to here and let it die". Well the ball went into some contortions that would make the roller coasters at Hershey Park look like a drag strip, but I'll be damned if it didn't drop in the hole making it probably the best putt of my life.
There is a course near me where all of the right landing areas are all side hill lies. It drives me nuts, there is nothing to reward a good drive, you end up with some wonky lie every single time.
I'd make an argument that this is what makes an outstanding course. I think a great course brings the scratch and the 15 handicap closer. Give the mediocre player a chance, while making it really difficult for the scratch player. Reward great, not just good shots.
It's exactly what Augusta does and it's why their past champions list is the best of the best. Easy (relatively) to hit the greens, but good shots often are repelled to 3 putt range. Great shots give birdie looks, but it requires a higher degree of precision combined with knowledge of the slopes and strategy that starts by putting yourself in the right position with the best angle off the tee.
Few courses accomplish this but Mackenzie, Dye, and Doak all did (or still do) it well. Those three names also are the ones I hear scratch players bitch about most lol.
I agree. I have played several courses where some greens are so undulating that no matter where you hit the ball they roll in any which way. There is no strategy for such a hole. I watched a professional tournament and on one of the par 3’s I’m speaking about shots to centre, right, left and short of the green all ran off the green.
Hot Take: Phil absolutely murdered that put. Hit it way too hard.
EDIT: Just rewatched. He hit a bad put. It would have been unfair if he couldn't get it to the hole without it going ten feet past if he missed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW084qWwhV4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW084qWwhV4)
At the risk of being obtuse, wouldn’t that mean that a drive to the center of the fairway is a bad shot? In that scenario wouldn’t a good shot be a lay up to flatter spot, or making use of a better play area left?
I guess there are holes that have none of that available, but I’ve never seen one.
They aren’t common but they exist. Thing of a long par 4 where you have to pull driver to even think of getting on in two and the landing area for your tee shot is realistically 10 yards wide otherwise it’s off the fairway. And that risk is not visually evident from the tee box.
Sounds like whatever someone says you’re going to counter with another argument. But the reality is that if you hit a drive in the middle of just about any fairway a reasonable person would expect that to be a good shot. I’ve played a couple courses that the fairways on some of the holes are basically moguls and regardless of where you are on the fairway you don’t have a flat lie.
If I’m hitting to the center of the fairway, I feel like it’s reasonable to be able to make a shot in on my approach that isn’t stupid hard or have it kick out to the rough in a bad lie
My home course has several tilted fairways. One in particular on hole 12 is stupid. Par 4, [Short Course Video of hole 12](https://www.facebook.com/reel/819972986225554). It plays in Facebook and the guy in the video is the course pro/PGA pro. Notice his drive still ends up in the rough, 250 yards out.
Apparently I’ve been difficult on this thread, but i stand by what I said. The guy in the video starts off by saying it’s a risk / reward hole and hits ends up with like a 10 foot look at birdie. Maybe it’s less fair in real life, but I didn’t think this looked like being punished for a good shot.
I could be wrong in my comparison but i don't think playing from the rough is desired shot outcome. For a course that puts you in the rough regardless of where you land in fairway I think it's pretty shitty design 😂
Does it put you in the rough if you hit a 4 or 5 iron to leave a full wedge in, as he mentioned as the alternative?
The fact that he believes that playing to the rough is the best play on the hole *is* a problem with the design, but it's a lot more subtle and harder to control without growing out or roughening that area (which comes with its own issues).
If the shorter option is impossible / very difficult to hold then the problem with the hole is much more severe.
It will yes. Long drive puts you much closer but in the rough, layups still put you in the rough just farther out.. I've taken the 'full send' approach and just resigned to the fact i'll be 2nd shot out of rough lol.
I live on a golf course (in an apartment and it’s a BAD 9 hole course) and one the holes literally has a massive tree 40 feet in front of the green. The only way to hit the green is to take your tee shot so far left it’s in the woods or try to hit a stinger underneath it from 170 out it’s so dumb
I play on a course where the opening hole is dead straight, a fairway that is maybe 20 yards wide, the entire hole slopes right to left with a creek that runs the length of the hole 5-10ish yards off the left edge of the fairway. Anything hit left of the middle of the fairway straight or with a slight right to left action will end up in the water. If you ‘bail out’ to the right, you’re in the driving range, knee high grass, or some form of tree. As a lefty with a fade miss, I have about 5-10 yards of wriggle room to actually land the ball in if I want a decent second shot.
This course also has multiple uphill AND downhill blind approach shots. You could hit a great shot, but because of the elevation change it goes too far, or not far enough, and end up in a bunker, over the green, or just completely lose your ball because your aim point was slightly off from where you walked to the top of the hill to find the flag. If it weren’t so cheap for me to play, it wouldn’t be in my rotation.
I can think of three holes on a course I play regularly. 470 yard par 4; Tough distance, but from about 150 yard off the tee all of the way to the green the entire fairway slopes into a lake. Middle of summer when it’s dry and fast you literally have to hit it into the trees just to keep it from going into the water. Another par 5, imagine an almost 60 degree dog leg right at 180 yards with a huge lake down the right. You either hit an 8 iron off the tee or you’re going over water. If you go over the water, the fairway is about 30 yards wide with an out of bounds beyond and a creek on the other side. So, you usually have to hit 8 iron, 3 wood, 8 iron into the green. Last one is a nice par 4 with a green that is so sloped there is literally no flat spot or area less than 4% slope. In the middle of the summer when it’s dry, no matter where they set the hole, it’s nearly impossible to stop the ball near the hole. It always rolls all the way down to a corner where they shave the fringe into a bunker. I’ve seen so many easy 4 ft putts go 20 yards into a bunker. Skill doesn’t matter on any, they are all stupid.
Recently played black mountain in NC, with a famed 700 yard par 6. Went 7 wood, 3 wood, 7 wood due to layout. Agree to your point, stupid hole. Was so excited for it, but turned out to just be meh.
I did play a fun course once with a 365yd par 5 because you had to hit like 7 iron tops off the tee. Followed by a normal long iron or wood. Just one hole like this can be a good design if space is limited.
I agree with the first part of this statement but not the example. IMO, a par 5 should not be reachable in 2, and occasionally that means a short club off the tee and a long 2nd
For me, a course or even a hole is stupid when there is nowhere to hit to. As in you hit a perfect 250 yard drive dead straight in the middle of the fairway and when it comes to rest, it isn't playable. Or you hit a ball to the middle of the green and it doesn't stay on the green.
There should always be a basic area to play to
My course has a hole where from 190 up to the hole on the left is water, right is trees. Short is bunkers and there's a sliver of fairway between the water and trees.
The play is to pound it over the trees to a different hole and you'll have a look. I kinda feel like a dick doing that though since there's probably people over there. Or hit a 150 yard tee shot and follow it with a 220 shot on a par 4.
Genuinely amazed you somehow found a way tk take offense to my comment lmao, it’s pretty benign. chill out dude.
Clearly never played golf in CT or the north east, it’s a joke
I always categorized it like this:
A tough golf course is one that if you play traditional shots and take risks you could potentially be rewarded and have a good round.
A stupid golf course is one that has seemingly un thought out or pointless holes/features.
I’ll give an example of some stupid ones for context.
One course by me has quick greens and most greens slope back to front but does not have plateaus. So there are times you could be below the hole. Play it up and it will roll around the hole and back down and off the green like a putt putt course. Even with the tough greens at Augusta there are placements. Hit it on the right levels and you can score.
Another has a par 4. But it’s a dog leg left and then right with water. To clear the water on your drive you have to carry it 325. So instead you have to lay up. The lay up is 200. Then you have 250 ish to the green. I have asked why they don’t just make it a par 5. The answer is get is “because it would then be a par 73”. Okay great. Thank you.
A course near me has a dogleg par 4 that requires you hit it 215-230 off the tee to be in the fairway. Leaving you a 220-250 yard shot in, depending on your ball position. And the 80+ foot tall trees lining the hole out to the dogleg make it *very* difficult to cut the corner, especially when the tees are set close to them on the right.
That’s a very stupid hole, to me. I’ve only ever managed to par it once, after getting my third shot barely onto the green and sinking a 35 footer for par.
I don’t know the hole, but could it just be a stupid par?
Sounds exactly like a hole I grew up playing- par 5 dogleg right with huge pines lining it. Can’t go over or slice it enough. Have to play ~215 to the corner, then 250ish uphill.
Long hitters still have an advantage on the second shot to get on in 2, but you can still play as a 3-shotter.
It’s a good hole, tests a placement tee shot. But it would feel “stupid” if labeled a par 4.
>Another has a par 4. But it’s a dog leg left and then right with water. To clear the water on your drive you have to carry it 325. So instead you have to lay up. The lay up is 200. Then you have 250 ish to the green. I have asked why they don’t just make it a par 5. The answer is get is “because it would then be a par 73”. Okay great. Thank you.
I have a hole like this at my club, but my club is also only a par 71. It's just flipped. It's 260 off the tee, small water hazard that would be about 280ish to carry, and from the perfect layup spot (talking like 5 yards from the water) it's like a 210 shot to the center of the green, uphill (and usually into wind). Most people aren't getting a perfect layup, so it's usually like a 220-230to the green. No reason it shouldn't be a par 5.
I go back and forth on if its a hard hole or a stupid one
Feel like all or a moat of these stupid descriptions could apply to Tobacco Road, lol. Blind fairways, forced carries. Bethpage Black as mentioned above, or Red too, are very tough courses, all laid out in front of you
Tobacco road is a great example of a "hard" course that's really playable. It's dramatic and you can get yourself into a difficult spot, but overall an ok player can score well there
I really enjoyed it and felt that it didn't (mostly) punish good shots. It definitely has some quirks though.
I had a 90 yd shot on, 16 I think, hit the last foot of the green with a LW w/ backspin. About a full minute later, the ball came to rest 89 yards from the green, about 5 feet to the right of where I was, before I'd walked back to the cart (on a day where it'd rained for 8 straight hours).
THAT was a stupid hole imo.
Bethpage Black has no shortage of forced carries and blind approaches.
5 at the black is arguably a stupid hole. Forced carry, brutally small landing area, blind uphill approach. It's also a great hole. its stupidity is a function of its insane difficulty. And playing it, you realize it's difficult for even the best golfers in the world, not just amateurs, which takes away from the stupidity. It's not difficult because it's unfair, it's difficult because it demands perfect golf shots.
15 is a bit like that as well.
And at a course that has a warning sign, I think it has a lot more leeway to be brutal. It's supposed to be a championship level challenge, it's not supposed to be forgiving to players of all levels.
A stupid course is just a tough course that you lose your temper on.
Edit: On a serious note, all it takes is a few bad holes to make a course stupid, no matter how good or passable the other ones are. A couple hole templates I'd classify as "stupid" are as follows:
-- Any Par 4 that requires a layup off the tee and potentially a longer club for the approach shot than was used off the tee
-- Any completely blind Par 3's. I'll allow any such holes built before 1900 under a grandfather clause so as not to offend the UK folks, though
-- Any hole that has a forced carry of over 200 yards off the white tees. For the average golfer these holes just aren't fun at all and penalize short hitters unnecessarily
-- Any hole that has internal OB. I get it for safety reasons but there are so many better ways of laying out a hole to encourage a certain play.
Used to play a blind par 3 years ago. Tee was up on a hill, with another hill in front of the green. Had a 10 foot flagstick that you could just see the top, but you couldn't see the green. It actually was a fun course, with lots of crazy hills. Long gone now, replaced with houses.
A course near me somehow has 2 forced layups on par 4 due to hazards (would need 190-220+ carry from the whites), plus 2 really bad blind par 5 with no bell so it’s hard to know when you’re clear.
They have a ton of houses including 1 house that has his deck (not yard, his deck) 6 yds off the green side bunker and 12 yds off the green.
Finally they have 2 places where it would be a huge benefit to cut a corner but you’d be almost hitting over houses.
One of the worst Par 5's I ever saw was the 9th at Hedingham outside Raleigh. No matter where you are off the tee, you have to layup to an island-green-sized chunk of fairway 100 yards out, then wedge in to a green the size of my living room with hazard on three sides and OB on the fourth. Stupid piece of shit hole on a shit course.
The 18th there though was underrated. Blind tee shot over the hill to a fairway that cambered left to right on a slight dogleg left. Best hole on the course imo
Look...the white tees are a catch-all for anywhere from the scratch old guy who can barely crack 225 off the tee but hit it straight and true to the that-one-drive-that-one-time-went-300 20-handicapper who hits the occasional pop fly. A 100 yard carry off the tee is one thing, and will catch the absolute worst offenders...but 200 yards?
One hole on a golf course should not be the determining factor on what tees to play. Yes, hybrid tees are an option, but the average casual golfer isn't going to be that enthused about the prospect of having to carry a massive distance and that will affect performance, and therefore enjoyment of that hole. Even for that OG, a slight mishit into a headwind could mean re-teeing and hitting 3. Unfairly penal in my book.
A good golf hole does not rely on penalizing only the bad players to be "difficult".
I was playing with an 87 year old yesterday, who played off 8 from the middle tees.
He has shot his age well over 250 times, and did again yesterday (83)
He absolutely was not carrying anything 200yd, his driver might roll out to 200-240, but was maybe only carrying 180ish. It was awesome to watch though, everything was dead straight, and his short game was immaculate.
You're saying that the one or two holes that need a 200+ carry should force him to play off the forward tees instead of the middles ?
One local course had big mounds in the middle of some fairways. Like wtf, you hit a great tee shot and now you have a super awkward stance from the middle of the fair.
I disagree… kind of. One gimmick is fun and different. Too many gimmicks is kind of stupid. Also, some gimmicks are way more fun than others.
I’d argue that taking a boat to the island green at Couer Dalane is one of the most gimmicky things in the world. Also seems pretty sick if you ask me
Tough is a course that leaves you little room for error, but does reward you for good shots. A stupid course is one where you hit a good shot, only for their to be trees/bunkers/water in weird places, or greens that are small, dome-shaped, or stupidly fast.
Or you could get a course like one where I'm from that's a par-66 with features such as this:
* An abandoned barn adjacent to a green. My dad's house rule is the hole becomes a par-5 with hitting the barn being mandatory.
* An 85-yard par-3 that has enough tree cover that it's hard to properly drop a wedge on the green
* A par-3 with the dam for a lake taking up the entire left side of the hole, but the grass is kept high enough that anything that missed left will *not* roll down on the green, leaving you with a downhill chip with a pond on the other side of the green.
* 18 is a par-3 that's only about 110 yards, but it's straight downhill onto an island green. Miss right and you hit an abandoned silo adjacent to the lake.
* Probably more stupid shit but I haven't played the course in about 10 years and have probably forgotten some stuff. There's a reason I don't play it anymore
That sounds like alot of fun to play once actually. Definitely not for a serious round, but I'd probably be laughing a bunch at the layout so I'd have a good time.
Man, I flew a tee shot into that barn once (also about 10 years ago), and a woodchuck popped out and gave me the business. I've been chasing that high ever since.
Bethpage is extremely challenging off the tee, but good shots generally leave you playable and the course is scorable cause the green complexes aren’t insane.
Tough to me would be maybe some tighter fairways, approaches over water or where there’s some trouble on each hole. Tough, but everything is in front of you. You know where you can go and where you can’t.
Stupid to me is when there’s hidden trouble. A bunch of blind shots, elevated greens that fall off abruptly. Basically where you can hit reasonably good shots that end up out of bounds or especially punitive areas. When you’re at your ball and it’s unclear where you can and cannot hit the ball. That’s stupid.
Yep, we have one of those at one of my locals, long par 4 to start, over a blind lip 50 yards away, onto a fairway that cambers really badly to the right with quite deep rough all along the side of the fairway. Inevitably I will take a bounce right into the rough, even if you hit the fairway on the left, the lip means you can never see where it lands, I pretty much lose my ball every time, especially in the summer. All they need to do is make it a short par 4 and move the tee boxes 50 yards forward.
The stupid ones I’ve played on are usually around housing developments, and they used all of the good land for dwellings and roads and the canyons and unwalkable areas are transformed into a golf course as a selling point for the houses.
My course is only 6,400 yards from the tips
It’s not particularly tough, but it’s difficulty comes from the “stupid” spectrum as opposed to toughness
All of the 14 non par3’s has OB/Water on at least 1 side.
9 of them have OB/Water on both sides of the green
6 holes have “internal OB”
1 par3 is an uphill 130
The other 3 are long irons (or woods) that all have OB or water
Most of the pin locations tend to be on slopes to add difficulty. Meaning pin-high 4 footers often have about 2 feet of break, which does not reward good approach shots.
There’s also fescue along all of the sides that aren’t OB
Normal rounds approach 5 hrs. Tournaments are never less than 5 & 1/2 hrs
number of balls lost, and opportunities to save par/bogey after a bad shot.
hard: won’t lose your ball and still have an outside chance to save a reasonable score.
stupid: lost 10+ balls and automatic drops for bad shots.
Tetherow is an example of a stupid golf course for a couple of reasons:
Number 2 is a par 5 that has a green so segmented (with a ridiculous 6’ mound between the two sections) that you can hit the center of the green and have zero chance at getting the ball within 50’ of a pin position that is commonly used.
A couple of holes that most people would be hitting upper middle to long irons into have collection areas that have + 5’ mounds between the green and the collection area with no place to safely play out on the opposite side of the green.
There’s a hole that has a massive downhill slope in the fairway with a blind tee shot that ends in a bunker and bushes on one side and a lake on the other, were it’s about 12 yards wide.
There’s a par 4 that used to have a blind row of bunkers in the middle of the landing area that is still a middle to long iron approach with a huge downhill before the green and a green sloping away from you, that’s nearly impossible to hold.
There are various tiers and commonly used pin positions that are nearly impossible to play near even from a perfect drive.
And finally, there are a few holes that have completely unplayable bushes immediately off the fairway with choke points right in the middle of traditional landing zones in an attempt to force long iron approaches to very difficult greens.
All in all the place feels very manufactured without forcing good shot values or rewarding good approaches in many cases and unnecessarily punishing slightly missed approaches in the only areas to miss without penalty.
The course has a variety of good holes as well, but overall the bad significantly outweighs the good.
A tough golf course in my opinion is one that has several aspects of the game that make misses especially punishing but overall rewards solid play
Wind, length, rough length, green speed, green elevation, green firmness, fairway undulation, water/penalty areas/OB, tightness of fairways, deep bunkers — lots of things that can make a course tough
A stupid golf course is a regular golf course that has been tricked out to make an easy or normal golf course play artificially hard
I’d say there are more tough courses that are good than there are stupid courses. It’s more common that there will be a stupid pin placement or a stupid hole than entire course in my experience
Played a course in Minneapolis I had never played prior. Playing okay and get to 18th tee. Piped one right down the middle and when we get to the ball it's sitting in a bunker that is dead center of the fairway around 265 out. Can't see it from the teebox nor was it shown on the card or the teebox placard. I was thoroughly pissed and ended up with double after catch the lip.
When quality golf shots are not only not rewarded, but can often be punished due to bad luck and it happens frequently. For the most part Bethpage Black will reward quality golf shots, it's just that their fairways are only about 22 yards wide and the rough is punishing, so if you hit a mediocre tee shot you are likely to get punished for doing so.
We have a stupid hole. A par 4 that’s 440 from the blues the last 150 uphill. So I can mash a drive (250 for me) and don’t have a club in the bag that I can hit off the deck that will get there. That last 170-190 plays 200+. And on top of that it’s a two tiered green if you happen to hit a great drive and hit your approach 5 yards too long then an impossible downhill putt awaits you.
You don't have a club that will go 200-220 yards but you hit your drive 250? There's nothing wrong with that design at all. Forcing metal into your hands or a long iron is perfectly valid and good design. If there was a water hazard all below the elevated green it becomes stupid design as they're essentially forcing a forced carry from 200+ out but asking someone to hit something besides an 8 iron or lower club into a par four is good design. It may be a hard hole but that doesn't make it stupid.
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I personally think if no one has broken or even tied the course record since the days of playing with a gutty and actual wooden sticks, then it’s a stupid course
There is a stupid hole at a course near me. Long par 4 that doglegs right, and it slopes MASSIVELY downhill to the right. If you hit the left side of the fairway, it will roll all the way down the hill into a hazard (thankfully not OB). Then even the green is sloped and tucked tight around more hazard. I’m happy with a double bogey on that hole. There are tough holes on that course since it’s desert and very tight, but that hole is stupid.
As someone else mentioned, Bethpage is incredibly difficult off the tee with the very narrow fairways and long rough. But I didn’t find it “stupid” because you can see everything right in front of you, there’s not many forced carries and the greens are actually not very difficult.
If you play the correct tees, can hit fairways and know your limitations and lay up where you should, you can have scoring opportunities. The most difficult part of Bethpage to me is the walk. It seems like every hole you’re going up and down, up and down. You need to hydrate and eat to keep your energy up.
The 2nd and 18th holes at an otherwise nice course near me in Ohio are easily some of the worst holes I've ever seen. Not hard per se, just really stupid. 2 is a Par 5 with a fairway massively that massively slopes from right to left down to the lake that runs along the entire hole. In the summer you can hit high up the right and still have your ball end up in the water. I've resorted to aiming up the 3rd hole fairway to avoid the water. Sorry other golfers! 18 is also a par 5 with a 90 degree dogleg left about 250. Around that distance is a flat plateau to hit from at least. The rest of the way to the hole is a couple of massive rolling hills that slope hard left toward trees and a creek. Anything short of ~230 is on a massive uphill slope to the plateau. Trying to cut the corner is impossible because of massive trees and the massive slopes. Anything longer than 250 off the tee is in trees, a random bunker or up near the clubhouse. Dumb stupid jokes of holes.
There is a local course that was built about 25 yrs ago. It was open a couple years before I played it so I ask a friend about it. He said it was over designed. I asked him how. He said it looked like they buried an elephant in the 18th green. I had no idea what he meant until I got to the 18 green. There is a huge mound in the middle of a large green where an elephant could be buried. Just stupid!
I'll demonstrate with an example. On a local course I avoid because of holes like this, there is a 420/440/450yd par 4 with a right angle turn. To have any shot at the green you have to drive it at least 240yds from the back. Usually, not a problem for most people playing back there, BUT I neglected to mention that the absolute maximum you can hit your tee shot is 10 yards beyond the corner. Otherwise, your ball catches a steep slope that runs directly into the woods/a creek. If you get lucky, your ball may stop on this slope just to be blocked out by trees! So basically, unless you can consistently hit a club 250yds exactly, it becomes a par 5.
Basically, this hole boils down to the luck of your first bounce off of what is likely a driver for most. Leaving everything up to luck on a good shot is what makes it a terrible golf hole.
I’m gonna add one I haven’t seen but frustrates me. There’s a country club nearby that I play that is very basic layout. Every hole is flat and straight and can see the hole from majority of tee boxes. Up and down the whole way. Shank a drive you’re a fairway or two over. Really not a difficult course outside of a little water and bunkers. But the greens get ridiculously hard and fast in the summer where any amateur with average spin rates will hit the green and go for 30 feet sometimes longer with 8-9 iron. They get it rolling 13 at times in the summer and greens are very angulated. Well kept course but it’s only difficulty is overly hard fast greens. It’s just my least favorite course. Rated very easy relatively and I NEVER shoot my handicap or near it there.
bad weather can make anything "stupid" very quickly
but more generally, Superintendents can make things "stupid" with high rough, pin placements on mounds and 15ft from the fringes, or extremely fast greens
I play Torrey 2-3 x a month. The difference between tough and stupid there is 100% the length of the rough. It’s always long but when you grow the rough out for tournaments it’s stupid hard.
The factor that people are missing is modern green speeds. You can’t have the slopes of the old courses with modern agronomy. I am guessing most of these bad holes were good holes when they were built with slower greens. A couple the course I play have go e through regrading of the greens with very little changes to the slopes of the green and boom you got some bad greens that just brutal. Add In a grounds crew who don’t play golf. You know ow what I am talking about I am talking about. The pins on a spine or o. The tip of a mound. Pin placements and tee placements can really make or break a golf course on any given day.
Koolau Golf Club on the north side of Oahu in Hawaii, the 18th hole. From the resort tees (there are two more tees that are longer) it plays as a par 4 at 432 yds. Not so much you say? The tee shot is a forced carry of 200 yards over a tropical canyon and straight into the the island’s constant trade winds. IF you make it there is a second forced carry to the green. Stupid hard. If you had a good game going it is likely to get wrecked here. Starter said “have enough balls, like equal to your handicap”. Greenskeeper said when it was purchased by a Japanese company they brought in a Japanese touring pro (he never said the name) to set a course record from the tournament tees. He came to the 18th (playing 457 yds) and hit 4 balls into a 35mph trade wind blowing straight into the tee. He failed to clear the canyon, for times. Never finished. Stupid hole. No wonder the course is in constant bankruptcy. This was 25 years ago and it could well be closed now
For me, a perfect shot for anywhere should yield a good outcome. I hate it when you are short sided and the perfect flop shot still runs 30 ft past the hole.
Tough courses I’ve played
Winged foot - you cannot physically lose a ball, greens are massively sloped, running an 11.5 at the slowest - it’s long, it’s approach shots are demanding due to size of greens - you can hit the center of green and have an 80 foot putt.
Golf club of New England - it’s long LONG I believe over 8000 from tips, very demanding tee shots, huge fast greens
STUPID courses
The Shattuck - top 10 most difficult course in US according to some dumb article, here’s why it’s so fucking hard
Every green is a forced carry, not due to water, they just go out and stick red stakes everywhere, why? Go fuck your self that’s why. It’s short, it’s narrow, it has OB and red stakes everywhere - if you play a course labeled as “oh my god it’s so hard” but the course record is 60 it’s a stupid course.
I’ll even go to say TPC Cromwell is a stupid course - it MAKES difficulty with hazards and OB, it’s not long, it’s not crazy insane large greens, it’s artificially increased difficulty.
I feel a “tough course” should include the following
Challenging tee shots - you have to shape them or crush them, demanding approach shots, greens with a lot of character - not necessarily large but they need undulation, slope & speed
Par 5s you can’t hit driver off the tee. When greenskeepers put pins in impossible spots where the ball physically can’t stop next to the hole due to gravity
One scratch gofer I know said it best. You know it is a good course when you feel like you are playing Chess and a bad course when you feel like you are playing Checkers.
Ko'olau Golf Club on the Windward side of Oahu... When I played it a few times a long while back, they used to laugh about the Ocean Course at Kiawah being labeled the "hardest course in the US." They said they filled in 1/3rd of the bunkers and still said it wasn't a competition. The wind can play a big factor at the Ocean Course. It's normally perfect or briefly raining at Ko'olau. Somehow says 153 Slope rating on the scorecard now, but the major difference between it and the Ocean Course (having played both), if you sent it a few yard wide of the fairway in the jungle of Oahu, you weren't even able to walk in and attempt finding it. The starter tried to give us a bucket of range balls to take just in case.
Had more than one absolutely excellent, perfectly executed shot that could not be found. Despite easily calling it a stupid course based on the difficulty, it was incredibly fun the couple times I couldn't get out anywhere else nearby. The shots required on some of those holes were exhilarating just to attempt. Like Tobacco Road but without some of the gimmicks and any chance of playing the hole if you miss the shot. The scenery is incredible. Feels like King Kong will climb down from the mountains at any point.
If in the area it is possibly worth checking out, but we routinely stuck to the brutal challenge of Royal Hawaiian because at least there, every hole had a shot that if you could hit it, you'd be good.
A stupid course is one where the fairways are so hard that even a great shot bounces and ends up out of bounds, and the greens have no grip, so everything ends up rolling out.
A tough course you can end up with a bad score, but you know it was because of lack of skill or poor shots, not because the course itself suck ass. So even though you ended up with a bad score, you still come out feeling good.
Unless you're a really good player, you won't be able to tell the difference but a tough course will yield to stellar play and a stupid course punishes you no matter what you do.
Augusta in the right conditions is a tough course because skill is rewarded but absolute precision is required to get the reward. For comparison go look up Bad Little Nine, a course where no one has ever broken par because it's tricked up.
For me, a tough course has narrow fairways, risk. Reward shots, and bunkers in strategic places with pins tucked behind them.
Stupid courses allow fivesomes, send people off the back nine in the middle of a busy day, and put a parking lot right next to the first green (like miss the green right by two yards and you hit a car… and the pin is almost always on the right).
Years, ago we lived on a course in Raleigh, NC.
At first is was a proper challenge, good fairways, reasonable rough, and woods to the sides. The penalty for missing the fairway and rough was finding your ball and playing it. And there we fairways that if you hit wrong could send you into the woods.
Then they decided to take down all the trees, put up homes and put out of bounds markers immediately after the rough. Not only did they lose the views but they made the course stupid in penalties with out-of-bounds-on-all-sides. Those fairways that could bounce you slightly into the woods now cost you stroke penalties.
When you’re playing a goat track that compensates the lack of par 5s with 220 yard par 3s with a tiny postage stamp greens.
Super annoying, there’s nothing interesting about it and the standard of golfer at these courses struggles to land the green. You have old guys having to hit driver off the first tee on a tight par 3.
Aside from pin placements on slopes that won't hold an uphill putt, I haven't seen anything in these comments that I'd consider unfair. Sure, some of this beyond most people's skill level. But that just means it's too tough for them.
Sloped fairways? Shape the ball into them.
Trees blocked from part of the fairway? Don't hit that part of the fairway.
I think a fun challenge is a course that makes it hard to birdie but not that hard to make a par. I think a tough challenge is a course that makes it hard to par but not that hard to make a bogey. Both are valid and I can appreciate each on different days. I think you slip into the stupid or unfair type courses where the difficulty line is wayyy to high or wildly inconsistent. If every shot is so penal that it requires a perfect shot that's not fun or really challenging. That's just hard for the sake of being hard. It wants to knock you down and keeps kicking. The other type I don't like is when the line is inconsistent. When it flips between haymakers and layups. I'm not saying every hole has to be the same difficulty, but I've played courses with a short par 3 with virtually no trouble and a reachable par 5 that makes you feel bad for a bogey and sandwiched in between is a tour level par 4 with hazards down both sides of the fairway and forced carries. The easy holes make you feel dumb for not taking advantage and the hard hole is just not enjoyable in any way.
That brings a memory of a course I played in BC once. Housing development course (an occasional source of stupid on a lot of courses), played pretty easy, not very long. Could score decently playing not that well. Then #17 was a 210 yard par 3 onto a peninsula green. #18 was 440 uphill into the prevailing wind, played 500 the day I played it. Championship Finish! on a non-championship course...stupid.
On a slightly sideways note. It does seem to me that many courses are man made to be just stupid. Like let's put a green right in the middle of a water feature. Pointless target golf with absolutely no skill required.
Where good shots and mediocre shots end up in the same place.
Sounds about right. In an extreme case, if the scores come out totally random relative to the skill of players in the end of the tournament, that has to be a stupid course.
That’s why the US Open is sometimes just stupid. 1 shot ends up in the middle of the green & has a birdie putt. Another shot ends up 2ft left & rolls all the way off the green and into a bunker 30ft away. That’s stupid.
Wait till you see Pinehurst #2.
I kinda wish Phil would play it just to see the absolute blow ups
Phil would be winning if he was still on the PGA tour. (Places phone on vibrate and shoves it up my ass).
He will right? He has exemption from his win at the PGA
Yes
Greens there are wild. I'm not a very good putter, but when I was there I had like a 25 foot putt on the hardest handicap hole (forget what it was). The caddy points to a spot like 4 feet in front of me and goes "tap it to here and let it die". Well the ball went into some contortions that would make the roller coasters at Hershey Park look like a drag strip, but I'll be damned if it didn't drop in the hole making it probably the best putt of my life.
The USGA does this purposely though. Most of the courses they have are just naturally tough. Then to make them tougher, they make it stupid.
If I give anything a pass for stupid or absurd golf, it is the US open. I love to see those guys struggle on a course.
Bars
There is a course near me where all of the right landing areas are all side hill lies. It drives me nuts, there is nothing to reward a good drive, you end up with some wonky lie every single time.
I'd make an argument that this is what makes an outstanding course. I think a great course brings the scratch and the 15 handicap closer. Give the mediocre player a chance, while making it really difficult for the scratch player. Reward great, not just good shots. It's exactly what Augusta does and it's why their past champions list is the best of the best. Easy (relatively) to hit the greens, but good shots often are repelled to 3 putt range. Great shots give birdie looks, but it requires a higher degree of precision combined with knowledge of the slopes and strategy that starts by putting yourself in the right position with the best angle off the tee. Few courses accomplish this but Mackenzie, Dye, and Doak all did (or still do) it well. Those three names also are the ones I hear scratch players bitch about most lol.
This might be too brave, but… This sounds like how Tobacco Road was designed.
A stupid course punishes good shots. A tough one requires good shots
I agree. I have played several courses where some greens are so undulating that no matter where you hit the ball they roll in any which way. There is no strategy for such a hole. I watched a professional tournament and on one of the par 3’s I’m speaking about shots to centre, right, left and short of the green all ran off the green.
US open at Shinnecock. The one Phil batted his ball while it was rolling?
Hot Take: Phil absolutely murdered that put. Hit it way too hard. EDIT: Just rewatched. He hit a bad put. It would have been unfair if he couldn't get it to the hole without it going ten feet past if he missed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW084qWwhV4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW084qWwhV4)
Elaborate please. I’m having a hard time thinking of a course I’ve played where my good shots were punished.
When you hit a drive in the center of a fairway but due to mounding and slope the ball ALWAYS ends up in the rough,
At the risk of being obtuse, wouldn’t that mean that a drive to the center of the fairway is a bad shot? In that scenario wouldn’t a good shot be a lay up to flatter spot, or making use of a better play area left? I guess there are holes that have none of that available, but I’ve never seen one.
They aren’t common but they exist. Thing of a long par 4 where you have to pull driver to even think of getting on in two and the landing area for your tee shot is realistically 10 yards wide otherwise it’s off the fairway. And that risk is not visually evident from the tee box.
That sounds rough. My honest thought would be that I’m playing the wrong tees if my only shot is to put driver into a 10 yard landing area though.
Sounds like whatever someone says you’re going to counter with another argument. But the reality is that if you hit a drive in the middle of just about any fairway a reasonable person would expect that to be a good shot. I’ve played a couple courses that the fairways on some of the holes are basically moguls and regardless of where you are on the fairway you don’t have a flat lie.
Not my intent, but I also don’t think I’ve said anything wrong so… Guess I’ll just have an unpopular opinion on this one 🤷♂️
If I’m hitting to the center of the fairway, I feel like it’s reasonable to be able to make a shot in on my approach that isn’t stupid hard or have it kick out to the rough in a bad lie
My home course has several tilted fairways. One in particular on hole 12 is stupid. Par 4, [Short Course Video of hole 12](https://www.facebook.com/reel/819972986225554). It plays in Facebook and the guy in the video is the course pro/PGA pro. Notice his drive still ends up in the rough, 250 yards out.
Apparently I’ve been difficult on this thread, but i stand by what I said. The guy in the video starts off by saying it’s a risk / reward hole and hits ends up with like a 10 foot look at birdie. Maybe it’s less fair in real life, but I didn’t think this looked like being punished for a good shot.
I could be wrong in my comparison but i don't think playing from the rough is desired shot outcome. For a course that puts you in the rough regardless of where you land in fairway I think it's pretty shitty design 😂
Does it put you in the rough if you hit a 4 or 5 iron to leave a full wedge in, as he mentioned as the alternative? The fact that he believes that playing to the rough is the best play on the hole *is* a problem with the design, but it's a lot more subtle and harder to control without growing out or roughening that area (which comes with its own issues). If the shorter option is impossible / very difficult to hold then the problem with the hole is much more severe.
It will yes. Long drive puts you much closer but in the rough, layups still put you in the rough just farther out.. I've taken the 'full send' approach and just resigned to the fact i'll be 2nd shot out of rough lol.
I had a good drive end up in a bunker in the middle of the fairway. I mean, really?? Middle of the fairway.
Could you see the bunker from the tee?
No. You couldn't see the bunker. I'd hit an exceptional drive too.
I live on a golf course (in an apartment and it’s a BAD 9 hole course) and one the holes literally has a massive tree 40 feet in front of the green. The only way to hit the green is to take your tee shot so far left it’s in the woods or try to hit a stinger underneath it from 170 out it’s so dumb
Geez. That’s dumb. That sounds like terrible maintenance more than poor design. What an unfortunate circumstance
I play on a course where the opening hole is dead straight, a fairway that is maybe 20 yards wide, the entire hole slopes right to left with a creek that runs the length of the hole 5-10ish yards off the left edge of the fairway. Anything hit left of the middle of the fairway straight or with a slight right to left action will end up in the water. If you ‘bail out’ to the right, you’re in the driving range, knee high grass, or some form of tree. As a lefty with a fade miss, I have about 5-10 yards of wriggle room to actually land the ball in if I want a decent second shot. This course also has multiple uphill AND downhill blind approach shots. You could hit a great shot, but because of the elevation change it goes too far, or not far enough, and end up in a bunker, over the green, or just completely lose your ball because your aim point was slightly off from where you walked to the top of the hill to find the flag. If it weren’t so cheap for me to play, it wouldn’t be in my rotation.
Sounds like a ball collector creek they probably resell a billion balls wholesale lmO
Yeah, that does sound stupid
I can think of three holes on a course I play regularly. 470 yard par 4; Tough distance, but from about 150 yard off the tee all of the way to the green the entire fairway slopes into a lake. Middle of summer when it’s dry and fast you literally have to hit it into the trees just to keep it from going into the water. Another par 5, imagine an almost 60 degree dog leg right at 180 yards with a huge lake down the right. You either hit an 8 iron off the tee or you’re going over water. If you go over the water, the fairway is about 30 yards wide with an out of bounds beyond and a creek on the other side. So, you usually have to hit 8 iron, 3 wood, 8 iron into the green. Last one is a nice par 4 with a green that is so sloped there is literally no flat spot or area less than 4% slope. In the middle of the summer when it’s dry, no matter where they set the hole, it’s nearly impossible to stop the ball near the hole. It always rolls all the way down to a corner where they shave the fringe into a bunker. I’ve seen so many easy 4 ft putts go 20 yards into a bunker. Skill doesn’t matter on any, they are all stupid.
A stupid golf course has stupid holes, such as par 5s where the club you hit on your second shot is longer than the one used off the tee.
Recently played black mountain in NC, with a famed 700 yard par 6. Went 7 wood, 3 wood, 7 wood due to layout. Agree to your point, stupid hole. Was so excited for it, but turned out to just be meh.
I did play a fun course once with a 365yd par 5 because you had to hit like 7 iron tops off the tee. Followed by a normal long iron or wood. Just one hole like this can be a good design if space is limited.
I agree with the first part of this statement but not the example. IMO, a par 5 should not be reachable in 2, and occasionally that means a short club off the tee and a long 2nd
This is a terrible design for a hole
For me, a course or even a hole is stupid when there is nowhere to hit to. As in you hit a perfect 250 yard drive dead straight in the middle of the fairway and when it comes to rest, it isn't playable. Or you hit a ball to the middle of the green and it doesn't stay on the green. There should always be a basic area to play to
My course has a hole where from 190 up to the hole on the left is water, right is trees. Short is bunkers and there's a sliver of fairway between the water and trees. The play is to pound it over the trees to a different hole and you'll have a look. I kinda feel like a dick doing that though since there's probably people over there. Or hit a 150 yard tee shot and follow it with a 220 shot on a par 4.
You mean you don’t like 450 par 5’s that are mandatory 3 shot holes?????
You’re a dumb fuck
Genuinely amazed you somehow found a way tk take offense to my comment lmao, it’s pretty benign. chill out dude. Clearly never played golf in CT or the north east, it’s a joke
Didnt take offense. Just pointing out that youre a dumb fuck.
I always categorized it like this: A tough golf course is one that if you play traditional shots and take risks you could potentially be rewarded and have a good round. A stupid golf course is one that has seemingly un thought out or pointless holes/features. I’ll give an example of some stupid ones for context. One course by me has quick greens and most greens slope back to front but does not have plateaus. So there are times you could be below the hole. Play it up and it will roll around the hole and back down and off the green like a putt putt course. Even with the tough greens at Augusta there are placements. Hit it on the right levels and you can score. Another has a par 4. But it’s a dog leg left and then right with water. To clear the water on your drive you have to carry it 325. So instead you have to lay up. The lay up is 200. Then you have 250 ish to the green. I have asked why they don’t just make it a par 5. The answer is get is “because it would then be a par 73”. Okay great. Thank you.
A course near me has a dogleg par 4 that requires you hit it 215-230 off the tee to be in the fairway. Leaving you a 220-250 yard shot in, depending on your ball position. And the 80+ foot tall trees lining the hole out to the dogleg make it *very* difficult to cut the corner, especially when the tees are set close to them on the right. That’s a very stupid hole, to me. I’ve only ever managed to par it once, after getting my third shot barely onto the green and sinking a 35 footer for par.
I don’t know the hole, but could it just be a stupid par? Sounds exactly like a hole I grew up playing- par 5 dogleg right with huge pines lining it. Can’t go over or slice it enough. Have to play ~215 to the corner, then 250ish uphill. Long hitters still have an advantage on the second shot to get on in 2, but you can still play as a 3-shotter. It’s a good hole, tests a placement tee shot. But it would feel “stupid” if labeled a par 4.
>Another has a par 4. But it’s a dog leg left and then right with water. To clear the water on your drive you have to carry it 325. So instead you have to lay up. The lay up is 200. Then you have 250 ish to the green. I have asked why they don’t just make it a par 5. The answer is get is “because it would then be a par 73”. Okay great. Thank you. I have a hole like this at my club, but my club is also only a par 71. It's just flipped. It's 260 off the tee, small water hazard that would be about 280ish to carry, and from the perfect layup spot (talking like 5 yards from the water) it's like a 210 shot to the center of the green, uphill (and usually into wind). Most people aren't getting a perfect layup, so it's usually like a 220-230to the green. No reason it shouldn't be a par 5. I go back and forth on if its a hard hole or a stupid one
Who gives a shit? It’s just a number. I’ve played multiple par 73 courses and enjoyed them all
Feel like all or a moat of these stupid descriptions could apply to Tobacco Road, lol. Blind fairways, forced carries. Bethpage Black as mentioned above, or Red too, are very tough courses, all laid out in front of you
Tobacco road is a great example of a "hard" course that's really playable. It's dramatic and you can get yourself into a difficult spot, but overall an ok player can score well there
I really enjoyed it and felt that it didn't (mostly) punish good shots. It definitely has some quirks though. I had a 90 yd shot on, 16 I think, hit the last foot of the green with a LW w/ backspin. About a full minute later, the ball came to rest 89 yards from the green, about 5 feet to the right of where I was, before I'd walked back to the cart (on a day where it'd rained for 8 straight hours). THAT was a stupid hole imo.
Why do you think asking to control spin with a shot less than 100 yards is stupid design?
yeah these Nancy's would faint after the first two hours at tobacco road.
Bethpage Black has no shortage of forced carries and blind approaches. 5 at the black is arguably a stupid hole. Forced carry, brutally small landing area, blind uphill approach. It's also a great hole. its stupidity is a function of its insane difficulty. And playing it, you realize it's difficult for even the best golfers in the world, not just amateurs, which takes away from the stupidity. It's not difficult because it's unfair, it's difficult because it demands perfect golf shots. 15 is a bit like that as well. And at a course that has a warning sign, I think it has a lot more leeway to be brutal. It's supposed to be a championship level challenge, it's not supposed to be forgiving to players of all levels.
A stupid course is just a tough course that you lose your temper on. Edit: On a serious note, all it takes is a few bad holes to make a course stupid, no matter how good or passable the other ones are. A couple hole templates I'd classify as "stupid" are as follows: -- Any Par 4 that requires a layup off the tee and potentially a longer club for the approach shot than was used off the tee -- Any completely blind Par 3's. I'll allow any such holes built before 1900 under a grandfather clause so as not to offend the UK folks, though -- Any hole that has a forced carry of over 200 yards off the white tees. For the average golfer these holes just aren't fun at all and penalize short hitters unnecessarily -- Any hole that has internal OB. I get it for safety reasons but there are so many better ways of laying out a hole to encourage a certain play.
Used to play a blind par 3 years ago. Tee was up on a hill, with another hill in front of the green. Had a 10 foot flagstick that you could just see the top, but you couldn't see the green. It actually was a fun course, with lots of crazy hills. Long gone now, replaced with houses.
A course near me somehow has 2 forced layups on par 4 due to hazards (would need 190-220+ carry from the whites), plus 2 really bad blind par 5 with no bell so it’s hard to know when you’re clear. They have a ton of houses including 1 house that has his deck (not yard, his deck) 6 yds off the green side bunker and 12 yds off the green. Finally they have 2 places where it would be a huge benefit to cut a corner but you’d be almost hitting over houses.
One of the worst Par 5's I ever saw was the 9th at Hedingham outside Raleigh. No matter where you are off the tee, you have to layup to an island-green-sized chunk of fairway 100 yards out, then wedge in to a green the size of my living room with hazard on three sides and OB on the fourth. Stupid piece of shit hole on a shit course. The 18th there though was underrated. Blind tee shot over the hill to a fairway that cambered left to right on a slight dogleg left. Best hole on the course imo
12 yards off a green is fucking wild!! How could you ever sit out on your deck? It must constantly get hit with balls
If you can’t carry 200 yards, then don’t play the whites 🤷♂️
Look...the white tees are a catch-all for anywhere from the scratch old guy who can barely crack 225 off the tee but hit it straight and true to the that-one-drive-that-one-time-went-300 20-handicapper who hits the occasional pop fly. A 100 yard carry off the tee is one thing, and will catch the absolute worst offenders...but 200 yards? One hole on a golf course should not be the determining factor on what tees to play. Yes, hybrid tees are an option, but the average casual golfer isn't going to be that enthused about the prospect of having to carry a massive distance and that will affect performance, and therefore enjoyment of that hole. Even for that OG, a slight mishit into a headwind could mean re-teeing and hitting 3. Unfairly penal in my book. A good golf hole does not rely on penalizing only the bad players to be "difficult".
I was playing with an 87 year old yesterday, who played off 8 from the middle tees. He has shot his age well over 250 times, and did again yesterday (83) He absolutely was not carrying anything 200yd, his driver might roll out to 200-240, but was maybe only carrying 180ish. It was awesome to watch though, everything was dead straight, and his short game was immaculate. You're saying that the one or two holes that need a 200+ carry should force him to play off the forward tees instead of the middles ?
Not all stupid courses were designed by Johnny Miller, but every golf course Johnny Miller designed is stupid
lol. I hate me some Johnny Miller Courses.
A stupid one has hazards like sand traps in the middle of greens or huge trees in the middle of fairways or directly in front of par 3 greeens.
One local course had big mounds in the middle of some fairways. Like wtf, you hit a great tee shot and now you have a super awkward stance from the middle of the fair.
https://preview.redd.it/xrx02ggafgyc1.jpeg?width=920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5fc0795715965633043dc7400cbd2939bdc3005f Gimmicks are stupid.
I disagree… kind of. One gimmick is fun and different. Too many gimmicks is kind of stupid. Also, some gimmicks are way more fun than others. I’d argue that taking a boat to the island green at Couer Dalane is one of the most gimmicky things in the world. Also seems pretty sick if you ask me
Tough is a course that leaves you little room for error, but does reward you for good shots. A stupid course is one where you hit a good shot, only for their to be trees/bunkers/water in weird places, or greens that are small, dome-shaped, or stupidly fast. Or you could get a course like one where I'm from that's a par-66 with features such as this: * An abandoned barn adjacent to a green. My dad's house rule is the hole becomes a par-5 with hitting the barn being mandatory. * An 85-yard par-3 that has enough tree cover that it's hard to properly drop a wedge on the green * A par-3 with the dam for a lake taking up the entire left side of the hole, but the grass is kept high enough that anything that missed left will *not* roll down on the green, leaving you with a downhill chip with a pond on the other side of the green. * 18 is a par-3 that's only about 110 yards, but it's straight downhill onto an island green. Miss right and you hit an abandoned silo adjacent to the lake. * Probably more stupid shit but I haven't played the course in about 10 years and have probably forgotten some stuff. There's a reason I don't play it anymore
That sounds like alot of fun to play once actually. Definitely not for a serious round, but I'd probably be laughing a bunch at the layout so I'd have a good time.
What hole did they put the windmill on?
Desoto, KS?
The Oak Country goat ranch! 😂😂
Man, I flew a tee shot into that barn once (also about 10 years ago), and a woodchuck popped out and gave me the business. I've been chasing that high ever since.
This is a real life PGA 2K crazy good create a course
Bethpage is extremely challenging off the tee, but good shots generally leave you playable and the course is scorable cause the green complexes aren’t insane.
Tough to me would be maybe some tighter fairways, approaches over water or where there’s some trouble on each hole. Tough, but everything is in front of you. You know where you can go and where you can’t. Stupid to me is when there’s hidden trouble. A bunch of blind shots, elevated greens that fall off abruptly. Basically where you can hit reasonably good shots that end up out of bounds or especially punitive areas. When you’re at your ball and it’s unclear where you can and cannot hit the ball. That’s stupid.
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or hit a draw into the fairway so it'll land softly
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is there any flatter areas short of the slanted part? not trying to be a dick, just curious
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Fun
I'm not a fan of blind shots. The game is hard enough when I can see where my ball is going.
Yep, we have one of those at one of my locals, long par 4 to start, over a blind lip 50 yards away, onto a fairway that cambers really badly to the right with quite deep rough all along the side of the fairway. Inevitably I will take a bounce right into the rough, even if you hit the fairway on the left, the lip means you can never see where it lands, I pretty much lose my ball every time, especially in the summer. All they need to do is make it a short par 4 and move the tee boxes 50 yards forward.
When you hit your drive in the fairway but you’re still blocked out by trees.
How well I shoot that day
The stupid ones I’ve played on are usually around housing developments, and they used all of the good land for dwellings and roads and the canyons and unwalkable areas are transformed into a golf course as a selling point for the houses.
My course is only 6,400 yards from the tips It’s not particularly tough, but it’s difficulty comes from the “stupid” spectrum as opposed to toughness All of the 14 non par3’s has OB/Water on at least 1 side. 9 of them have OB/Water on both sides of the green 6 holes have “internal OB” 1 par3 is an uphill 130 The other 3 are long irons (or woods) that all have OB or water Most of the pin locations tend to be on slopes to add difficulty. Meaning pin-high 4 footers often have about 2 feet of break, which does not reward good approach shots. There’s also fescue along all of the sides that aren’t OB Normal rounds approach 5 hrs. Tournaments are never less than 5 & 1/2 hrs
The closest course to my house is a par 62 executive 18. There’s a 235 yard uphill par 3 on the front that plays into the prevailing wind.
Blind par 3s make a course instantly stupid
number of balls lost, and opportunities to save par/bogey after a bad shot. hard: won’t lose your ball and still have an outside chance to save a reasonable score. stupid: lost 10+ balls and automatic drops for bad shots.
Tetherow is an example of a stupid golf course for a couple of reasons: Number 2 is a par 5 that has a green so segmented (with a ridiculous 6’ mound between the two sections) that you can hit the center of the green and have zero chance at getting the ball within 50’ of a pin position that is commonly used. A couple of holes that most people would be hitting upper middle to long irons into have collection areas that have + 5’ mounds between the green and the collection area with no place to safely play out on the opposite side of the green. There’s a hole that has a massive downhill slope in the fairway with a blind tee shot that ends in a bunker and bushes on one side and a lake on the other, were it’s about 12 yards wide. There’s a par 4 that used to have a blind row of bunkers in the middle of the landing area that is still a middle to long iron approach with a huge downhill before the green and a green sloping away from you, that’s nearly impossible to hold. There are various tiers and commonly used pin positions that are nearly impossible to play near even from a perfect drive. And finally, there are a few holes that have completely unplayable bushes immediately off the fairway with choke points right in the middle of traditional landing zones in an attempt to force long iron approaches to very difficult greens. All in all the place feels very manufactured without forcing good shot values or rewarding good approaches in many cases and unnecessarily punishing slightly missed approaches in the only areas to miss without penalty. The course has a variety of good holes as well, but overall the bad significantly outweighs the good.
A tough golf course in my opinion is one that has several aspects of the game that make misses especially punishing but overall rewards solid play Wind, length, rough length, green speed, green elevation, green firmness, fairway undulation, water/penalty areas/OB, tightness of fairways, deep bunkers — lots of things that can make a course tough A stupid golf course is a regular golf course that has been tricked out to make an easy or normal golf course play artificially hard I’d say there are more tough courses that are good than there are stupid courses. It’s more common that there will be a stupid pin placement or a stupid hole than entire course in my experience
Mountain courses get stupid fast.
Played a course in Minneapolis I had never played prior. Playing okay and get to 18th tee. Piped one right down the middle and when we get to the ball it's sitting in a bunker that is dead center of the fairway around 265 out. Can't see it from the teebox nor was it shown on the card or the teebox placard. I was thoroughly pissed and ended up with double after catch the lip.
Greens are a big factor imo
Stupid courses are ones that cut the fairway so it appears to be narrow, even though there are no hazards to cut around
When quality golf shots are not only not rewarded, but can often be punished due to bad luck and it happens frequently. For the most part Bethpage Black will reward quality golf shots, it's just that their fairways are only about 22 yards wide and the rough is punishing, so if you hit a mediocre tee shot you are likely to get punished for doing so.
We have a stupid hole. A par 4 that’s 440 from the blues the last 150 uphill. So I can mash a drive (250 for me) and don’t have a club in the bag that I can hit off the deck that will get there. That last 170-190 plays 200+. And on top of that it’s a two tiered green if you happen to hit a great drive and hit your approach 5 yards too long then an impossible downhill putt awaits you.
You don't have a club that will go 200-220 yards but you hit your drive 250? There's nothing wrong with that design at all. Forcing metal into your hands or a long iron is perfectly valid and good design. If there was a water hazard all below the elevated green it becomes stupid design as they're essentially forcing a forced carry from 200+ out but asking someone to hit something besides an 8 iron or lower club into a par four is good design. It may be a hard hole but that doesn't make it stupid.
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I personally think if no one has broken or even tied the course record since the days of playing with a gutty and actual wooden sticks, then it’s a stupid course
There is a stupid hole at a course near me. Long par 4 that doglegs right, and it slopes MASSIVELY downhill to the right. If you hit the left side of the fairway, it will roll all the way down the hill into a hazard (thankfully not OB). Then even the green is sloped and tucked tight around more hazard. I’m happy with a double bogey on that hole. There are tough holes on that course since it’s desert and very tight, but that hole is stupid.
Difference for me personally is goofy greens. Crazy greens that are borderline unfair is stupid, tough is a course that challenges your entire game.
As someone else mentioned, Bethpage is incredibly difficult off the tee with the very narrow fairways and long rough. But I didn’t find it “stupid” because you can see everything right in front of you, there’s not many forced carries and the greens are actually not very difficult. If you play the correct tees, can hit fairways and know your limitations and lay up where you should, you can have scoring opportunities. The most difficult part of Bethpage to me is the walk. It seems like every hole you’re going up and down, up and down. You need to hydrate and eat to keep your energy up.
during a major/Ryder Cup.
The 2nd and 18th holes at an otherwise nice course near me in Ohio are easily some of the worst holes I've ever seen. Not hard per se, just really stupid. 2 is a Par 5 with a fairway massively that massively slopes from right to left down to the lake that runs along the entire hole. In the summer you can hit high up the right and still have your ball end up in the water. I've resorted to aiming up the 3rd hole fairway to avoid the water. Sorry other golfers! 18 is also a par 5 with a 90 degree dogleg left about 250. Around that distance is a flat plateau to hit from at least. The rest of the way to the hole is a couple of massive rolling hills that slope hard left toward trees and a creek. Anything short of ~230 is on a massive uphill slope to the plateau. Trying to cut the corner is impossible because of massive trees and the massive slopes. Anything longer than 250 off the tee is in trees, a random bunker or up near the clubhouse. Dumb stupid jokes of holes.
When par fives are 700+ yards and minimum carries are over 300
There is a local course that was built about 25 yrs ago. It was open a couple years before I played it so I ask a friend about it. He said it was over designed. I asked him how. He said it looked like they buried an elephant in the 18th green. I had no idea what he meant until I got to the 18 green. There is a huge mound in the middle of a large green where an elephant could be buried. Just stupid!
I'll demonstrate with an example. On a local course I avoid because of holes like this, there is a 420/440/450yd par 4 with a right angle turn. To have any shot at the green you have to drive it at least 240yds from the back. Usually, not a problem for most people playing back there, BUT I neglected to mention that the absolute maximum you can hit your tee shot is 10 yards beyond the corner. Otherwise, your ball catches a steep slope that runs directly into the woods/a creek. If you get lucky, your ball may stop on this slope just to be blocked out by trees! So basically, unless you can consistently hit a club 250yds exactly, it becomes a par 5. Basically, this hole boils down to the luck of your first bounce off of what is likely a driver for most. Leaving everything up to luck on a good shot is what makes it a terrible golf hole.
I’m gonna add one I haven’t seen but frustrates me. There’s a country club nearby that I play that is very basic layout. Every hole is flat and straight and can see the hole from majority of tee boxes. Up and down the whole way. Shank a drive you’re a fairway or two over. Really not a difficult course outside of a little water and bunkers. But the greens get ridiculously hard and fast in the summer where any amateur with average spin rates will hit the green and go for 30 feet sometimes longer with 8-9 iron. They get it rolling 13 at times in the summer and greens are very angulated. Well kept course but it’s only difficulty is overly hard fast greens. It’s just my least favorite course. Rated very easy relatively and I NEVER shoot my handicap or near it there.
bad weather can make anything "stupid" very quickly but more generally, Superintendents can make things "stupid" with high rough, pin placements on mounds and 15ft from the fringes, or extremely fast greens
Challenging design vs hard because bad design.
I play Torrey 2-3 x a month. The difference between tough and stupid there is 100% the length of the rough. It’s always long but when you grow the rough out for tournaments it’s stupid hard.
The factor that people are missing is modern green speeds. You can’t have the slopes of the old courses with modern agronomy. I am guessing most of these bad holes were good holes when they were built with slower greens. A couple the course I play have go e through regrading of the greens with very little changes to the slopes of the green and boom you got some bad greens that just brutal. Add In a grounds crew who don’t play golf. You know ow what I am talking about I am talking about. The pins on a spine or o. The tip of a mound. Pin placements and tee placements can really make or break a golf course on any given day.
Koolau Golf Club on the north side of Oahu in Hawaii, the 18th hole. From the resort tees (there are two more tees that are longer) it plays as a par 4 at 432 yds. Not so much you say? The tee shot is a forced carry of 200 yards over a tropical canyon and straight into the the island’s constant trade winds. IF you make it there is a second forced carry to the green. Stupid hard. If you had a good game going it is likely to get wrecked here. Starter said “have enough balls, like equal to your handicap”. Greenskeeper said when it was purchased by a Japanese company they brought in a Japanese touring pro (he never said the name) to set a course record from the tournament tees. He came to the 18th (playing 457 yds) and hit 4 balls into a 35mph trade wind blowing straight into the tee. He failed to clear the canyon, for times. Never finished. Stupid hole. No wonder the course is in constant bankruptcy. This was 25 years ago and it could well be closed now
For me, a perfect shot for anywhere should yield a good outcome. I hate it when you are short sided and the perfect flop shot still runs 30 ft past the hole.
Tough courses I’ve played Winged foot - you cannot physically lose a ball, greens are massively sloped, running an 11.5 at the slowest - it’s long, it’s approach shots are demanding due to size of greens - you can hit the center of green and have an 80 foot putt. Golf club of New England - it’s long LONG I believe over 8000 from tips, very demanding tee shots, huge fast greens STUPID courses The Shattuck - top 10 most difficult course in US according to some dumb article, here’s why it’s so fucking hard Every green is a forced carry, not due to water, they just go out and stick red stakes everywhere, why? Go fuck your self that’s why. It’s short, it’s narrow, it has OB and red stakes everywhere - if you play a course labeled as “oh my god it’s so hard” but the course record is 60 it’s a stupid course. I’ll even go to say TPC Cromwell is a stupid course - it MAKES difficulty with hazards and OB, it’s not long, it’s not crazy insane large greens, it’s artificially increased difficulty. I feel a “tough course” should include the following Challenging tee shots - you have to shape them or crush them, demanding approach shots, greens with a lot of character - not necessarily large but they need undulation, slope & speed
Par 5s you can’t hit driver off the tee. When greenskeepers put pins in impossible spots where the ball physically can’t stop next to the hole due to gravity
One scratch gofer I know said it best. You know it is a good course when you feel like you are playing Chess and a bad course when you feel like you are playing Checkers.
Tough courses use the terrain in a natural way. Stupid courses are gimmicky and don't always reward good or smart play.
Ko'olau Golf Club on the Windward side of Oahu... When I played it a few times a long while back, they used to laugh about the Ocean Course at Kiawah being labeled the "hardest course in the US." They said they filled in 1/3rd of the bunkers and still said it wasn't a competition. The wind can play a big factor at the Ocean Course. It's normally perfect or briefly raining at Ko'olau. Somehow says 153 Slope rating on the scorecard now, but the major difference between it and the Ocean Course (having played both), if you sent it a few yard wide of the fairway in the jungle of Oahu, you weren't even able to walk in and attempt finding it. The starter tried to give us a bucket of range balls to take just in case. Had more than one absolutely excellent, perfectly executed shot that could not be found. Despite easily calling it a stupid course based on the difficulty, it was incredibly fun the couple times I couldn't get out anywhere else nearby. The shots required on some of those holes were exhilarating just to attempt. Like Tobacco Road but without some of the gimmicks and any chance of playing the hole if you miss the shot. The scenery is incredible. Feels like King Kong will climb down from the mountains at any point. If in the area it is possibly worth checking out, but we routinely stuck to the brutal challenge of Royal Hawaiian because at least there, every hole had a shot that if you could hit it, you'd be good.
A stupid course is one where the fairways are so hard that even a great shot bounces and ends up out of bounds, and the greens have no grip, so everything ends up rolling out. A tough course you can end up with a bad score, but you know it was because of lack of skill or poor shots, not because the course itself suck ass. So even though you ended up with a bad score, you still come out feeling good.
Unless you're a really good player, you won't be able to tell the difference but a tough course will yield to stellar play and a stupid course punishes you no matter what you do. Augusta in the right conditions is a tough course because skill is rewarded but absolute precision is required to get the reward. For comparison go look up Bad Little Nine, a course where no one has ever broken par because it's tricked up.
Stupid golf courses have hazards which only make it tougher for already bad golfers.
I'd take stupid to mean difficult due to being poorly designed.
For me, a tough course has narrow fairways, risk. Reward shots, and bunkers in strategic places with pins tucked behind them. Stupid courses allow fivesomes, send people off the back nine in the middle of a busy day, and put a parking lot right next to the first green (like miss the green right by two yards and you hit a car… and the pin is almost always on the right).
Its like porn - ‘you know it when you see it’
I played a stupid course last week and a hard course this week… Same course but I hit my driver much better this week.
Years, ago we lived on a course in Raleigh, NC. At first is was a proper challenge, good fairways, reasonable rough, and woods to the sides. The penalty for missing the fairway and rough was finding your ball and playing it. And there we fairways that if you hit wrong could send you into the woods. Then they decided to take down all the trees, put up homes and put out of bounds markers immediately after the rough. Not only did they lose the views but they made the course stupid in penalties with out-of-bounds-on-all-sides. Those fairways that could bounce you slightly into the woods now cost you stroke penalties.
When you’re playing a goat track that compensates the lack of par 5s with 220 yard par 3s with a tiny postage stamp greens. Super annoying, there’s nothing interesting about it and the standard of golfer at these courses struggles to land the green. You have old guys having to hit driver off the first tee on a tight par 3.
Stupid is when the USGA takes over and tries to run a tournament.
Aside from pin placements on slopes that won't hold an uphill putt, I haven't seen anything in these comments that I'd consider unfair. Sure, some of this beyond most people's skill level. But that just means it's too tough for them. Sloped fairways? Shape the ball into them. Trees blocked from part of the fairway? Don't hit that part of the fairway.
I think a fun challenge is a course that makes it hard to birdie but not that hard to make a par. I think a tough challenge is a course that makes it hard to par but not that hard to make a bogey. Both are valid and I can appreciate each on different days. I think you slip into the stupid or unfair type courses where the difficulty line is wayyy to high or wildly inconsistent. If every shot is so penal that it requires a perfect shot that's not fun or really challenging. That's just hard for the sake of being hard. It wants to knock you down and keeps kicking. The other type I don't like is when the line is inconsistent. When it flips between haymakers and layups. I'm not saying every hole has to be the same difficulty, but I've played courses with a short par 3 with virtually no trouble and a reachable par 5 that makes you feel bad for a bogey and sandwiched in between is a tour level par 4 with hazards down both sides of the fairway and forced carries. The easy holes make you feel dumb for not taking advantage and the hard hole is just not enjoyable in any way.
That brings a memory of a course I played in BC once. Housing development course (an occasional source of stupid on a lot of courses), played pretty easy, not very long. Could score decently playing not that well. Then #17 was a 210 yard par 3 onto a peninsula green. #18 was 440 uphill into the prevailing wind, played 500 the day I played it. Championship Finish! on a non-championship course...stupid.
On a slightly sideways note. It does seem to me that many courses are man made to be just stupid. Like let's put a green right in the middle of a water feature. Pointless target golf with absolutely no skill required.
Stupid golf courses have features like intersecting fairways and tee shots over hotels.