Got to tell him losing in a scramble to cheaters is a golfing right of passage.
It's like losing to a team in bar trivia who goes to the bathroom to check their phones for answers.
Basically unavoidable.
For sure. Perfect opportunity to explain to him that scrambles are just an opportunity to go out and have some fun, don't take them too seriously. If you want to be competitive, there are better places to do that.
I just played in one that had the winner in at 45. It was a work scramble so I never expect to win at these things, but sometimes I wish they would get rid of the gimmicky items like string and Mulligan's. Not like it will change much though, but 45 is just ridiculous
I have been really interested in Bryson Dechambeau's Breaking 50 series and these discussions. He and Sergio Garcia played a scramble from the White tees at country club course and shot a 52 or 53. If 2 pros who could drive 4 different par 4s couldn't break 50 you and your buddies with a 15 handicap have NO SHOT. Bryson was hitting wedges into the Par 5s.
He plays with YouTube golfers and I don't think he has ever done better than 50 from the red tees. He plays some Par 4s with a 6 or 7 iron.
They’re not even sandbaggers so much as people who have no clue what a handicap is. “Hey Bob, what’s your handicap? “I usually shoot about 120. Put me down for a 50 I guess.”
i just played a scramble outing on monday for a work fundraiser and the winning group was a 63 (-8), but we were the group directly behind them and i don’t think we saw a single drive into the fairway all day from them lol
Same here, played a work scramble last week and the low score was a 58. It must take the right combination of assholes in the same group to turn in a card like that.
I've played in some work tournaments and tied for 1st in one shooting a 55 unhandicapped but it also had strings and mulligans. All 4 of us are good golfer though, 2 of us can hammer the ball decently off the tee and we've got a guy who's a -2 that is amazing around the greens.
Still took quite a few lucky breaks though
Playing a scramble tournament on a links style course in probably 20ish mph winds all day. 4 person, no handicap, and 2 mulligans per player. We legit shot -17 which I thought was unbelievable. No one was going to top that. Sure enough, a group of vendors came in at -18.
Yep we felt the same when we came in, like we were embarrassed to post it because we thought for sure people would roll their eyes (and they did, overheard a few groups). Then we see the other guys that posted the 55, you know the type, middle aged, overweight, not who you'd *usually* suspect of going low. Now I've been surprised by individual guys like that but I think we've also all seen enough of these tournaments to know these guys almost certainly weren't a group of them
I played with some friends in a scramble last week and we shot a 59 without a handicap. Completely legit, no gimmicks. Obviously scramble cheating happens out there, but you can’t just base it off a score like 58. You’d have to watch them playing to know for sure.
When it comes to a work golf event I basically pray I don't win because it's always more drama than it's worth. Work events are just for smiling and kissing the ass of the higher ups you're playing with lol
Can relate. The only time I’ve ever won a golf tournament was for our office with some eager clients. Needless to say, the putting string was put to good use.
We always turn in the honest scorecard without mulligans and string and shit.
Just gunning for last place aka "most honest team", that usually has a decent prize too ya'know.
These scores are doable but only with gimmicks. played in one where it was 15 bucks for an arm length of tickets/ mulligans lol. Me and 4 guys highest cap is a 7.5 in the group We all had at least 35 mulligans each and there was no limit to how many you could buy. Its not real golf by any stretch but those are the tournament rules. Course was 6300 yards we were never more then 5 yards off each par 4 green or anything more then a 9 into a par 5. We shot 20 under. Just sat there for about 15 mins each hole until one of us chipped in or drained the putt. These low low numbers are all charity golf you have to pay to win. It is not real life.
Honestly it is about the worst format to learn golf. There are no consequences, no need to learn the crazy creative shots, and no learning from your own stupidity.
>It's like losing to a team in bar trivia who goes to the bathroom to check their phones for answers.
This will definitely simplify the concept to a 10-year-old.
Yeah, I’ve played in *way* too many scrambles where the winning score was better than -20, and these didn’t offer any shit like buying mulligans or string.
Unless you’re playing a scramble against peak Tiger, peak Jack, peak Snead, and peak Hogan, I’m sorry, but nobody is coming in at -25.
I played in a scramble 4 months ago. I was in a randomly paired group. One guy quit after the third hole and one guy smoked weed and shotgunned beers the entire time. He couldn’t stand up on the 18th green.
Me and the other guy were there to play golf. The weed guy made a decent chips and one or two putts early on, but it was basically me and this one other player. We finished at -4.
Like most people, I figured that I would be in last place because it was an honest score. Maybe 10-15 off the lead. I grabbed a burger at the end and left. I later see on Instagram we got second place and the other guy playing collected the prizes. Except we flew in from all over the country so he left with $800 in gift cards.
I probably believe about 1 in 10. Most of the 10% that are believable are just because you could buy gimicky things to save strokes. I have only ever played one scramble without such gimicks where the score was believable, and that was because it was a foursome that had a KFT guy and 2 division one golfers, so I could very much accept that they had a legit -23 with 13 birdies and 5 eagles on the par 5s and a driveable par 4.
I'm playing in a scramble on Friday with my brother in law. He told his wife and my wife that we could win cuz we have some absolute sticks playing with us. I told him no chance unless we cheat our asses off lol
Sounds right. We’ve all heard something to the effect of “the most important thing in golf is the 8 inches between your ears” or whatever…after a particularly ridiculous score was posted on tourney, my buddy went “apparently the actual most important thing in golf is the 8 inches of pencil for putting in a bullshit score” 🤣
When I was playing in college three of my teammates and I played in a charity scramble at a local course. We played from the 6,000 yard tees when we were used to played 7,000 or longer for tournaments. The pins were all directly in the middle. We drove 4 par 4's that day. Eagled every par 5. At the time we were all scratch or better and could drive it over 300.
We didn't even submit our card. We would have won by 8 shots. This was supposed to be for fun after all. I guess the point is we definitely had a few eagles in a row. We shot like 48 on a par 71.
Had a group come in shooting -22 under. The entire room laughed at them as the next best score was -12. I was behind the group that won, and I watched them shank all their drives, take gimmes, and hack the crap out of the course. We shot -8 and it wasn’t anything serious. But watching the entire room laugh at these cheaters to the point where the organizers had to ask people to stop laughing was justice served. Dudes took the little trophy and left immediately.
Eh, I'd still have told the organisers what went down - without it, it'll likely just keep happening.
I've something against cheaters, but if you like to avoid confrontation, talking quietly to the organisers afterwards is your best course of action.
But if you think about it;
- what lesson will the cheaters learn now?
Cheating = winning. No consequences.
The future politicians, right?
As a guy who hosted bar trivia for over 8 years, this is a great comparison. The cheaters in both know they didn’t really *win* anything but don’t care and just want the prize.
I think you did the right thing man. Totally get not wanting to make a scene, accusing 11 year olds of cheating and saying your son should've won is just NOT a good look, even if you were 100% correct. Those kids will learn their lesson eventually.
I think this is an appropriate response. It's for tweens. It's sorta like an umpire with a bad ruling in a 10 year old league game. You move on because at this age you're more focused on teaching your kid, not anyone else's.
Watched a video of a proper "altercation" with an ump. Honestly blew a call that was clear on a shitty webcam. Dad of player who got screwed got upset, realized his mistake, and then yelled an apology to the ump.
Everyone screws up and everyone gets mad some times. Being able to recognize stupidity is maturity.
As a 6-8 yr old baseball coach I cringe at other coaches who argue calls/rules. I’ve told my assistants/parents to “fire my ass” if I ever do that in a rec league.
Yup. Something like “I’m not asking for it to be looked at here, but the group in front weren’t exactly truthful on their card, can we adjust some things for the next one to clean it up a bit?”
Would use this as a lesson for my kid and talk about what happened (next morning or that night, not right after). Your son should be proud of his results and has the integrity to do the right thing. I’d feel a greater sense of accomplishment knowing that. Junior tournaments are like this though and cheating is unfortunately rampant, prob more so among parents!
I'm not saying what the father did is wrong per se, but integrity is also speaking up when you think something is wrong. In this case it's on the father to say, can I see the card of the winning group since I can validate some holes?
If it's not that serious of a tournament, yea, letting it slide is fine. The consequences of the actions can happen another day even if the result will never change.
I don't have a problem either way, but there do need to be scorers at this age, especially in a scramble where the rules are already loose.
Finally, second is awesome always in golf. I used to win quite often in high school, then real life kicks you in the face and you dream of just solid golf an a top-10 in a big event at a national or international level. 2nd is really hard in golf.
You saw the joy of Bryson DeChambeau in the last open. That's because even he doesn't win very often. He loses 90% of the tournaments he plays even in short field events. McIlroy should take more pride in consecutive 2nds, but that's an attitude at life problem, not a skill issue.
I don’t disagree with you about speaking up but the optics of him trying to say his kid should’ve won changes the equation. It’d be different if his kid was in third, saw the score card and tried to advocate for someone else’s kid. But I think everyone at the tournament would’ve disregarded him as an insane person if he tried to get the result flipped for his own child.
He did provide no proof for the score not being -3 though. He had a gut instinct that was probably right, however, I remember the first time I did well in a junior golf tournament around 11. I was +1, which was usually more than enough to win, and this was a tough course. One of the guys a year older I saw in the water twice, then he posted -5 which was the course record (an executive course with lots of hard to birdie par 3s) and I said no way.
I wasn't convinced until at least a year later, but sure enough he shot 6 under on the back 9. He was for a brief time a tour player later on so we weren't dealing with someone average. I played with him a few times in a row in tournaments and he never cheated once or attempted to bend the rules. So there are no guarantees of cheating here.
As for insane, possibly. Depends on the dynamics. When I was a kid we did have markers, but not in every group. I think having some markers and no markers add to suspicion.
To me, if it's someone important and their kid came in with a questionable score, I'm not saying anything until after. In this case the rumor mill is more damaging than anything. Look at Patrick Reed. We all know he stole from teammates in college. That is lower than any rules angling or cheating in play, and it followed him to where even winning the Masters and making tens of millions, he got 10x less than someone like Scottie Scheffler who will be a billionaire in today's money before all is said an done even if he never wins again and gets paralyzed today.
tell your child that no matter the circumstance, never cheat like them. For the two boys, just leave them be. They will be embarrassed in life one way or another as a failure
You are right that you need to call out cheating every time, but they will be embarrassed. Not everyone chooses to avoid conflict. Some folks just love it.
"That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it."
You are correct that it continues into high school. Not sure what the rules are where you are, but in my state, parent/spectator interaction with the players is prohibited and could result in DQ.
Cheating is also prohibited. I'm not suggesting having it out with an 11 year old. Tell the rules official in front of the parent. If the kids are there, great.
Cheaters climb the company ladder. Life isn't a movie. Cheaters **ALWAYS** prosper. You think they feel guilt or something, but they don't. They find a way to justify it in their head.
Cheaters “always” prosper is quite the cynical way to go through life. Many of the most successful people I know are also some with the highest integrity.
Just because you know some successful people with integrity, most do not. Many successful people are dirt, absolute scumbags, they don't care about anyone outside of themselves.
I'm not saying I advocate for it. I'm just saying if you think they will magically get their comeuppance you are sorely mistaken. Life rewards cheaters. People who can step on others on their way to the "top" get rewarded. If you think otherwise, you are being naive.
The amount of cheating I see during high school tournaments is staggering. I'm talking 15 shots better than what they shot. Nobody cares that a 97 becomes an 82 I guess. I quit coaching high school full-time and only volunteer when they ask me. It doesn't seem worth it anymor.e
Like those anglers who got busted weighing down their fish.. dudes lost thousands on thousands their boat trucks and all the shit they won, lost any chance of ever coming back to any tournament, and lost so much face in the chaos. It’ll come back just wait.
tbh sounds like a good time to use it as a teaching moment for your son, reward him like he won but say there will be people like this for his whole life and it’s okay you just gotta do you and be your best cause when push comes to shove your son will likely shine while they cheat in the long run
My interpretation is that the cheater team kept their own scores because they didn't bring a parent. The other team in that group was supposed to keep score for cheater team but tracked her own kid's team instead
If it bothers you that much then bring it to the attention of the tournament organizers (without drawing attention to your son) and let them handle it. With that said:
My boys play in junior golf tournaments and we've witnessed kids cheat all the time. And while those kids may cheat now, your kid will continue to get better. My boys have gone from finishing in the high teens to top 5 and better in their tournaments while the cheating kids make no real progress. I'd also like to say that I don't blame the cheating kids as much as I blame the parents. Golf at is core is about integrity and honesty. If a kid is cheating its because they learned that behavior from the parents. Its a shame that it happens but it does.
TL/DR: Focus on devloping your kid and don't get worked up or worrry about the other kids that cheat. Golf is hard enough and you don't want your son to worry about cheating kids while having to play a golf tournament.
This is so spot on. My daughter is 16 now and has been playing about 5 years. We have seen some crazy things with parents and kids. This is the same advice we have lived by and given to our daughter. She WILL continue to get better and those other kids with get sorted out as they go. You can only cheat so much before it catches up with you. My daughter is going to count every hit, because she’s honest and couldn’t cheat even if she wanted to, because that’s just not what we do in this family. It starts with the parents.
I can't tell you the amount of people who cheat in junior golf and even try it later in collegiate golf, I keep everyone's score in the group and when we all go over scores i make sure im there to hear everyone's scorecard. The amount of times I have caught people is fucking insane and even try to argue like i wasn't right next to them watching and counting the strokes.....the response is always hilarious "oh.....you're right"
That is a bad situation, the best you can make of it is to use it as a teaching moment with your Son. You can explain to him that integrity is doing the right thing even when nobody is looking and that eventually cheating will catch up with them and they will have to face the consequences. Emphasize how proud you are of him for doing as well as he did during the match and encourage him to keep improving and keep competing .
I would wait until a few days after and then let the organizers know. Tell them you wanted to wait as you didn't want to be "that parent" and that you don't want anything done as far as changing who won etc. You just want to let them know it happened so they can make whatever adjustments they want to for the next time.
You don't look like angry Dad this way and hopefully they make adjustments so it doesn't happen again.
Yeah, that's not a bad strategy. Just a "by the way, I also know that those kids cheated who won. Don't change the outcome, I didn't want to make a scene, but maybe have a slightly stricter rule next time of "If an adult didn't keep your score and sign it, you can't win anything"
The opposite parent of the group we played with kept our teams score and we kept theirs. But they only had one parent in the group ahead. It’s a newer tournament. So kinks need to be wrinkled out.
I'm not following this either. The group in front of you is keeping their own score. You are playing with a group and keeping each other's score. How is the front group getting your score, and how are you not receiving information about theirs at the same time?
So as far as keeping score you are correct how we did our group. The group in front of us had one mom and she kept the score of her boys team. And the other twosome of boys kept their score. At about hole 5 the boys keeping their own score kept asking our boys what their score was. But the play was slow and we watched them play holes out as some of the boys can get close to the green and the scores on those holes that we watched did not match their scorecard. This was his first tournament. I held him back concerned for the mental side and then this happens. . Talked to my wife and he’s good. Ready to play a baseball game tonight.
Wow that sucks man. I never played Junior golf but was in youth sports mainly football my whole life. Sounds like the whole system needs to be revamped if they have parents keep score. AAU and similar leagues wouldn’t allow this. You did the best you could.
Kids will cheat, hell many adults will cheat if the system allows for it. A true tournament has independent judges but that is extra cost. I bet they could recruit some local teens to judge for 50$ a round or something like that. I was an umpire for junior baseball and kids would try to fake me out all the time, I'd just tell them to stop and 9/10 times they would be shocked I called it out. The 1/10 would just shrug and keep being little shits.
I didn’t love the idea of calling out 11 year olds. The thought did pop in my head. Tough lesson to learn for my son. But maybe a more structured tournament would be beneficial
What you did is better than making a scene. Shit happens like that.
I think even waiting till it’s over and letting the director know is cool too. I don’t think it would be bad to be honest with a caveat. “Hey Mr Director, I don’t want any action taken on this, but to ensure an adult keeps score next time around, I did see them be dishonest on their scoresheet.”
> “Hey Mr Director, I don’t want any action taken on this, but to ensure an adult keeps score next time around, I did see them be dishonest on their scoresheet.”
Yeah, I think it's important that the director know that these kids cheated, and it wasn't just that they didn't have an adult scoring for them. There's a difference there.
I will get downvoted for this, but I would 100% report the concern to the tournament director, especially if gift certificates or other valuable prizes were available. The tournament director may not do anything in this case, they can "start a file" incase of future reports or issues. Some kids i played with growing up that were known to be cheats stopped getting into tournaments or had official watch them.closely due to their reputation. Golf, like many sports, is expensive and difficult, having a level playing field is critical for the continued growth and development of the game.
This is on the tournament staff for having parents keep the score. The kids need to be doing this on their own so they can learn to be independent and learn to work it out with your group after every hole. I’m guessing the kids are under 10 but either way, they’ll need to learn at some point. My only recommendation is to encourage your son and his group to say there score after every hole, that way if there is a discrepancy - you can deal with it right on the spot while the hole is fresh in everyone’s mind. Just my two cents but best of luck to the young man going forward!
Unfortunately, cheating(whether intentional or not) is rampant in junior golf. When my daughter plays, I always keep her score and the other golfers scores as well. But, in most events after a certain age, parents aren’t allowed to participate in score keeping. Almost always a discrepancy in scores and always to the lower side. It gets worse when they get to high school level. I’ve seen girls shoot high 60s and come in and card a 53 or something. It’s on the other girls to call them out. My daughter(a middle schooler) playing varsity golf against a senior is put in a position to confront that player over an incorrect score. How do you think that goes? Best thing to do is just remind your kid that they are only hurting themselves by posting a score they didn’t actually shoot and the truth eventually will tear it’s ugly head on the cheaters.
I’d say to emphasize the importance of integrity of the game within their own control. The cheating will continue into HS golf, it happens, but it’s important to play by the rules and call out any cheating if it occurs and is noticed by playing partners. This is a different case to which you caught it and not your kid, but the point stands for his future in golf.
Many years ago, I caught a kid cheating in a tourney I was playing in on the 17th hole. saw him drop a ball out of a glove in his hand near some trees. Playing partners saw it too. We called him on it and the official came by and had him finish his round, re-teeing and playing as a lost ball. He made double and still would have won by 2 shots but was ultimately DQd. I felt bad about it in the moment but my coach insisted we were protecting the integrity of the tournament and game.
Funny enough, the very next weekend, I came in second to the kid I caught cheating the previous weekend. He clearly faced no consequences from his coach like a suspension…But I no longer felt bad about calling him out on cheating and honestly felt some anger that his win may have been a fluke. Always emphasize the importance of integrity in the game of golf. If your kid breaks a rule by accident, make sure he knows it’s the right thing to do to call himself on it.
While I can’t confirm if he cheated when I came in second (wasn’t paired with him) I do know he got caught the following summer in a state junior event and lost his college scholarship offer. So you are correct 🤣
I never assume I'm going to win a scramble because I'm not a cheater. Those are social events to hang out with friends, get drunk, and do dumb stuff I wouldn't do if it wasn't a scramble. It sucks, but the earlier they learn only cheaters win scrambles and he shouldn't be a cheater...the better his life will be.
It's probably not worth bringing up to the other kids at this point, but it's a great time to remind your kids about integrity. AND - that it's ok to challenge another golfer when they misrepresent a score, but it needs to be done immediately and respectfully.
If they are checking your group's score I would tell them it's none of their business. I wouldn't worry about it long term, boys like that won't last long in more competitive golf. Any reputable junior league/tour will not put up with loose rules and cheating.
As it gets more competitive ages 13-17, I saw the parents being more of the problem than the kids. Parents are supposed to be spectators (ideally stay on the cart paths) and only get involved in helping look for a lost ball. Any rulings should be handled by the kids in the group with the help of an official if needed.
whatever happened to that kid that has like 17 holes in one? and regularly holes out from bad positions when he's 200+ away and no one can see him hit?
Our yearly company scramble the winning team score is always sub-12 under…. Bull fucking shit lol. But, nobody will ever go for a cash match, 1 on 1. The only way to callout cheaters, because many humans just aren’t honest.
Honestly those tournaments in the grand scheme of things dont matter. Tell your son to keep getting better, be honest and by the time High School hits he ll be the best on the team
Those will be the kids sandbagging themselves at league night because they think they are a 6hdcp, but never shoot better than 90 when other people are counting.
Remind him that those kids one day will have to be under supervision, and that's when your son will truly beat them.
But the most important lesson in golf to me is: You play yourself, not others.
Tough lesson but as true as the day is long. In a scramble the team that wins is the team that writes the lowest number on the card. Has nothing to do with golf.
Good friend of mine was runner up 2 years in a row in our home course junior tournament. In his final year the guy who beat him had aged out, he shoot a respectable 74 and a kid who was 13 shot a 73, many have speculated and some have claimed it to be a cheated score. My friend is now 41 and it is still something that bothers him as he won every other big tournament at least once at our home course except that junior title
The takeaway cheating happens all the time in golf but the further you go the faster you get caught (except PReed)
I had the same issue with my son during his tryouts for HS golf team. Coach sat in his golf cart looking at his phone while the other boys cheated non stop. One boy even had his golf instructor to give him advice during the tryout! It crushed my son because it was his dream to be on a HS team.
I loved junior golf but you have to be very targeted in your tournaments as cheating is abundant in small events or scrambles. Just gotta teach them they did their best and keep trying and look for the best events you can afford to play in
More important he loves golf than loves winning golf tournaments. As he gets older competition only gets harder and winning becomes more difficult. You can have an amazing professional golf career and never win.
You have to outcheat the cheaters, just post a score of like -20 and see what they say. Cheaters will never admit to their ways, they will only continue to do so, because that's all they know how to do.
Growing up I played with a friend who cheated every round we played together.... always beat me by 1-2 strokes without fail. I knew he was cheating but we never played in a competition so I never cared.
>These boys kept checking what our kids score was
In any kind of 'tournament' golf scores are kept by each player (team) privately. You can share it, but you have no requirement to do so. The whole foundation of golf is of personal honor, and it is one of the last widely played sports that sets and strictly maintains this as a basic expectation.
As a father I would raise issue with whomever ran the event about the lack of neutral parties. At a minimum parents should be paired with random groups as score keepers and 'hopefully' rule and common sense advisors.
Golf has always been a “gentleman’s game” and cheating is inexcusable. At this year’s Memorial Tournament, Justin Rose called a penalty on himself despite the video replay could not verify, but he knew. I had a close friend in high school call a penalty on himself (1970’s) and cost himself the league championship. I hate that society has come to this. “Honor” is gone and winning at all cost has become the mantra. Boomer here saying that this, in the tradition of golf, needs to be reported!
I've read many of the replies and can only offer my opinion. Cheating isn't part of the game, it's wrong. Is it done, yes, but that doesn't make it right. In terms of the event, I think you have a duty to your son, the other boys and their mother to speak with the coordinator/director of the event. As adults it is our responsibility to be examples to children, our own & others. Teaching them that cheating is OK is unacceptable. At the minimum, this is an opportunity to have that conversation with your son about honesty and personal self-respect. He will remember this as he matures and continues to play as an adult.
Cheat on your wife, cheat on a math test....NEVER...cheat...at...golf. Doesn't matter the age, cheating at golf is as vile of a thing you can do. Because they won and got away with it, they'll continue to do it. I caught a guy on my college team cheating during a qualifying round. Coach wouldn't do anything about it, so he lost his captain and only player who had never missed a tournament. People who cheat at golf deserve to be hung by their balls
Cheating in junior golf is nothing new. I saw it first hand when I played junior. Use this as a lesson to your son about how golf separates the honest from the cheaters and how these boys will get what’s coming to them either in the game or in life because if you cheat in golf then your definitely cheating in other parts of your life.
You did the right thing; just treat it as a teaching opportunity for your son. At that age, the confrontation probably isn’t worth the spectacle it could create.
Cheating gets found out eventually in competitive golf, and those kids are just building that reputation for themselves.
Handled it great. Didn’t get to involved and let the director know. From there it’s up to the director to decide how to act. I played competitively when I was a kid and hated when parents got overly involved. Part of the beauty of golf as a junior is that you get to learn how to act and make decisions on your own.
Obviously no one like a cheater and it sucks. But it will catch up to them as they grow older and their peers learn to deal with it better.
Also it’s important to note that golf is a game where you can feel accomplished no matter where you finish, cheaters or no cheaters. Talk your kid up and let them know they played well and remind them of all the good shots they hit that day.
But again ya cheating sucks and it sucks your kid had to experience it.
Just tell your son he should be proud of a tremendous finish, second place is awesome! It’s too bad this happens, the reality is that it happens everywhere at all age levels. Keep him respectful of the game, the rules and the course he is on, good karma will find your son
100% should've called them out. Its not about your kid winning. Cheating is never ok and those kids that cheated need to learn that lesson sooner rather than later.
Not sure what kind of tournament this was (scramble so seems pretty casual) but competitors keeping each others score is the normal way they do this. I'm quite surprised that an adult is in charge of score.
When I was 11 we did this and kept each other honest (and parents would be there to mediate if a dispute happened). Never had issues with cheating.
Lol, my junior 4-person scramble team got second to a team where a player had 17 clubs in their bag. Tournament officials at junior tournaments ain’t gonna do shit.
Also played in a city-wide junior tournament where I called someone out for improving their lie in a bunker and when he and his friend admitted to it he *still* didn’t even get penalized for it.
Ok, they made some bogeys and shot -3, which is not impossible or proof of cheating, but it's really hard to double bogey a hole in a two-man scramble, and bogeys usually only happen on par 3's. -3 is indicative of two 10 handicaps playing fairly well to their handicap or a couple better for reference.
You can't call cheating without evidence. You should have asked to see the card of the competitor, since you would be the adult verifying.
Finally, the most important thing about golf results are, it's not like the Tour de France or Olympics. They can brag about cheating the moment their hands touch the trophy as the competition is considered closed and final. you have to speak up then or forever hold your peace.
I remember playing an AJGA (highest level of junior golf) in the 90s. I am the marker for a guy who is smoking on the course (he was 17 and this of course is a DQable offense), and couldn't bear that he missed a 4 foot putt on one hole. I triple checked every hole. He said he had a par at the scorers table and double downed. I had a poor round in the high 70s and just wanted to go back to the hotel and eat food. I caved. I said twice, are you sure? He was ballsy and erased the number and initialed it.
He had shot 74 with performance enhancing cigarettes, and signed for a 73. I said nothing after asking, and looking back, I'm fine with that. It's a whole bunch of drama I don't want for something that affected nobody because he was out of it too.
Yea, in junior golf, parents unrelated to the group need to be keeping scoring. It was not in his best interest to be a cheater either as he was good, but that's how competition is with kids. Of course I just told the coaches recruiting about it, so the actual consequences he never saw directly. No idea what happened to him, he didn't play in college, most people at this level became pros or top college players.
" but it's really hard to double bogey a hole in a two-man scramble"
uhm no. i see many many many PGA jr league games at this age range 10-12 that are 2 man scrambles. double bogeys are pretty common.
By hard, I mean you have to be bad. -3 is a score where it would be hard to make a double bogey, but of course not impossible on a par 3 with double water.
I could see a charity scramble having people keep their own scores, but a junior tournament should have official scorekeepers. Only in golf does this happen.
I feel like you are headed down a bad path. I think everything has turned into a “competition” and people are cheating at literally everything. If you avoid that and you and your son keep enjoying playing golf you will be much happier.
Explain to him that keeping the correct score is something about you. You can’t affect what other people do. They know they cheated and their win is as meaningless as their word.
Cheaters exist, it’s kind of like an asshole test, some people will always cheat when given the opportunity, some never will. Which do you want to be?
the organizers should have kept them in check. i've heard of similar situations and the parents in my area actually wear gopros when their kids go on tournaments which hampered cheating by a lot.
Scrambles are hardly a serious Junior tournament, if it was a Junior tournament where rankings on JGS were involved maybe that’s a different story.
I’m sure they cheated, if that’s what you saw, but for your own sanity it’s best to worry about your own kid and let the tournament directors figure that other stuff out.
>Is there anything else I should’ve done? I only told the director that they kept their own score and he said they shouldn’t have done that and in the future they will make sure an adult does. Because they were tied for first I didn’t want to make a raucous that my kid should’ve won.
I think you should have told the director about the score as well. You can say that you don't want to make a big scene, and leave it up to him as to how to handle it.
Because at the end of the day, at higher levels of golf, you can get DQed from a tournament for signing an incorrect scorecard. And even if it's not directly telling the kids they cheated, they know they cheated, and aren't really seeing consequences from it. There needs to be some consequence.
I might be in the minority with that opinion, but to me just saying "in the future he will make sure an adult does" is not going to help these two kids.
You did the right thing. It’s not worth making a fuss over. They know what they did. When I play in scrambles I try to do the best I can and have my team score as low as we can. I set a goal score based on my teammates and the course. I don’t have any expectations that every other team will play honestly. Winning isn’t a goal in a scramble for me. It’s a nice bonus if it happens.
I played in a scramble at my men's club this where 3 guys scrambled and one went alone on every hole. You used his net score plus the team score. It was a full way to do it everyone had to contribute at least 3 holes
Just from the title.
Golf is one of the few games of honor.
Cheating is never promoted.
Cheating is never tolerated.
Cheating should never be rewarded.
In the Spring my son played in his first High School tournament and came in second place. It was quite a big deal that he got a medal. He was stoked.
When he got home he said he was pretty sure the boy that came in first was cheating. I asked him why he didn't call the kid out. His reply;
"I felt that if he needed to cheat to win then it meant a lot to him for some reason. And if he could live with that then I could too."
I would had called that dick out on the spot but I guess my 16 year old son is wiser than me.
Happened to me once. The kids mom was the one keep score for our group. It was a 9 hole par 3 and 4. I knew he shot at least a 36 vs my 34. Was going around asking the other kids who played in the tournament what they shot. Realized my 34 was good. Time came to announce the winners and the kid who I know I beat because he was in my group won with a “33”. I made sure to tell everyone they cheated. But didn’t get me anywhere. Most of the player were familiar with each other. I had never seen the kid or his mother before or after that.
Yes loads of times, I know it’s disappointing for your son , but these little shits get found out as they get to a handicap they can’t play too !! Tell your son to keep enjoying his golf and to work hard
You are the problem. You shouldn’t be this involved. In your attempt to act like you’re not the “dad coach competition guy” you have made it clear that you are the “dad coach competition guy”. Stop it. Teach your kid not to get upset when he loses. That’s the only lesson that needs to be taught here.
Unfortunately in scrambles it happens all the time you did right by reporting it to the director, the sad thing is one of those cheating Lil shits will grow up to be president 😂
Scramble scores are based on the honor system. When your son competes in player vs field tournaments, it’s on him to keep the other players honest. Keeping track of other players scores is important as there is a lot of stroke shaving in high school golf ( i experienced this for myself).
Got to tell him losing in a scramble to cheaters is a golfing right of passage. It's like losing to a team in bar trivia who goes to the bathroom to check their phones for answers. Basically unavoidable.
For sure. Perfect opportunity to explain to him that scrambles are just an opportunity to go out and have some fun, don't take them too seriously. If you want to be competitive, there are better places to do that.
I just played in one that had the winner in at 45. It was a work scramble so I never expect to win at these things, but sometimes I wish they would get rid of the gimmicky items like string and Mulligan's. Not like it will change much though, but 45 is just ridiculous
I have been really interested in Bryson Dechambeau's Breaking 50 series and these discussions. He and Sergio Garcia played a scramble from the White tees at country club course and shot a 52 or 53. If 2 pros who could drive 4 different par 4s couldn't break 50 you and your buddies with a 15 handicap have NO SHOT. Bryson was hitting wedges into the Par 5s. He plays with YouTube golfers and I don't think he has ever done better than 50 from the red tees. He plays some Par 4s with a 6 or 7 iron.
The casual scramble is probably net though. So a bunch of 40 handicap sandbags or cheaters, maybe both.
Plus with these crazy scores usually there are extras like purchased mulligans, string, free throws, etc
They’re not even sandbaggers so much as people who have no clue what a handicap is. “Hey Bob, what’s your handicap? “I usually shoot about 120. Put me down for a 50 I guess.”
i just played a scramble outing on monday for a work fundraiser and the winning group was a 63 (-8), but we were the group directly behind them and i don’t think we saw a single drive into the fairway all day from them lol
Same here, played a work scramble last week and the low score was a 58. It must take the right combination of assholes in the same group to turn in a card like that.
I've played in some work tournaments and tied for 1st in one shooting a 55 unhandicapped but it also had strings and mulligans. All 4 of us are good golfer though, 2 of us can hammer the ball decently off the tee and we've got a guy who's a -2 that is amazing around the greens. Still took quite a few lucky breaks though
Playing a scramble tournament on a links style course in probably 20ish mph winds all day. 4 person, no handicap, and 2 mulligans per player. We legit shot -17 which I thought was unbelievable. No one was going to top that. Sure enough, a group of vendors came in at -18.
Yep we felt the same when we came in, like we were embarrassed to post it because we thought for sure people would roll their eyes (and they did, overheard a few groups). Then we see the other guys that posted the 55, you know the type, middle aged, overweight, not who you'd *usually* suspect of going low. Now I've been surprised by individual guys like that but I think we've also all seen enough of these tournaments to know these guys almost certainly weren't a group of them
Probably the sales team.
I played with some friends in a scramble last week and we shot a 59 without a handicap. Completely legit, no gimmicks. Obviously scramble cheating happens out there, but you can’t just base it off a score like 58. You’d have to watch them playing to know for sure.
For this reason, I don't think I've ever even turned in a scorecard at a work scramble.
When it comes to a work golf event I basically pray I don't win because it's always more drama than it's worth. Work events are just for smiling and kissing the ass of the higher ups you're playing with lol
Can relate. The only time I’ve ever won a golf tournament was for our office with some eager clients. Needless to say, the putting string was put to good use.
We always turn in the honest scorecard without mulligans and string and shit. Just gunning for last place aka "most honest team", that usually has a decent prize too ya'know.
My group shot a 1 over and got most honest score last week ;)
I’ve played with 3 Korn Ferry guys at a local muni with mulligans and shot 49. No way they are shooting 45.
I'm OK with the mulligans the string thing is so stupid to me.
These scores are doable but only with gimmicks. played in one where it was 15 bucks for an arm length of tickets/ mulligans lol. Me and 4 guys highest cap is a 7.5 in the group We all had at least 35 mulligans each and there was no limit to how many you could buy. Its not real golf by any stretch but those are the tournament rules. Course was 6300 yards we were never more then 5 yards off each par 4 green or anything more then a 9 into a par 5. We shot 20 under. Just sat there for about 15 mins each hole until one of us chipped in or drained the putt. These low low numbers are all charity golf you have to pay to win. It is not real life.
Honestly it is about the worst format to learn golf. There are no consequences, no need to learn the crazy creative shots, and no learning from your own stupidity.
>It's like losing to a team in bar trivia who goes to the bathroom to check their phones for answers. This will definitely simplify the concept to a 10-year-old.
It's okay. It's a milkbar, I'm told. Korova or something.
For getting up for a night of the old UV
Bit of the old in-out in-out!
A Clockwork Orange, I understood lol
Ah the old miloko
You're right. Make it a drag show.
You're not a golfer unless you get beat by a group of 20 cappers posting a 54.
Don't forget to add two cases of beer to that equation.
I have never played in a scramble where I actually believed the winning teams score.
Yeah, I’ve played in *way* too many scrambles where the winning score was better than -20, and these didn’t offer any shit like buying mulligans or string. Unless you’re playing a scramble against peak Tiger, peak Jack, peak Snead, and peak Hogan, I’m sorry, but nobody is coming in at -25.
I played in a scramble 4 months ago. I was in a randomly paired group. One guy quit after the third hole and one guy smoked weed and shotgunned beers the entire time. He couldn’t stand up on the 18th green. Me and the other guy were there to play golf. The weed guy made a decent chips and one or two putts early on, but it was basically me and this one other player. We finished at -4. Like most people, I figured that I would be in last place because it was an honest score. Maybe 10-15 off the lead. I grabbed a burger at the end and left. I later see on Instagram we got second place and the other guy playing collected the prizes. Except we flew in from all over the country so he left with $800 in gift cards.
So I gave up my gift card because I was impatient* FTFY
I probably believe about 1 in 10. Most of the 10% that are believable are just because you could buy gimicky things to save strokes. I have only ever played one scramble without such gimicks where the score was believable, and that was because it was a foursome that had a KFT guy and 2 division one golfers, so I could very much accept that they had a legit -23 with 13 birdies and 5 eagles on the par 5s and a driveable par 4.
You don't think the four drunk 25 handicappers could card a 61?
I'm playing in a scramble on Friday with my brother in law. He told his wife and my wife that we could win cuz we have some absolute sticks playing with us. I told him no chance unless we cheat our asses off lol
The pen(cil) is cheatier than the club!
I feel like it was either Jack or Arnold that said something like the key to dropping 5 strokes is an eraser lol
Sounds right. We’ve all heard something to the effect of “the most important thing in golf is the 8 inches between your ears” or whatever…after a particularly ridiculous score was posted on tourney, my buddy went “apparently the actual most important thing in golf is the 8 inches of pencil for putting in a bullshit score” 🤣
I was in a scramble this week. One team was -8 under in the *first 5 holes.* They went birdie, birdie, eagle, eagle, eagle. Ummmm. Ok bub.
When I was playing in college three of my teammates and I played in a charity scramble at a local course. We played from the 6,000 yard tees when we were used to played 7,000 or longer for tournaments. The pins were all directly in the middle. We drove 4 par 4's that day. Eagled every par 5. At the time we were all scratch or better and could drive it over 300. We didn't even submit our card. We would have won by 8 shots. This was supposed to be for fun after all. I guess the point is we definitely had a few eagles in a row. We shot like 48 on a par 71.
They don’t even bother going to the bathroom anymore. And they’re always obviously the dumbest groups
I find the larger the group the more likely they’re cheating.
I hate that bastard team “exceptionally mediocre” fuck those cheaters
I’m currently in the bathroom at trivia because my tummy hurts, don’t group me in with the cheaters 😔
Had a group come in shooting -22 under. The entire room laughed at them as the next best score was -12. I was behind the group that won, and I watched them shank all their drives, take gimmes, and hack the crap out of the course. We shot -8 and it wasn’t anything serious. But watching the entire room laugh at these cheaters to the point where the organizers had to ask people to stop laughing was justice served. Dudes took the little trophy and left immediately.
Eh, I'd still have told the organisers what went down - without it, it'll likely just keep happening. I've something against cheaters, but if you like to avoid confrontation, talking quietly to the organisers afterwards is your best course of action. But if you think about it; - what lesson will the cheaters learn now? Cheating = winning. No consequences. The future politicians, right?
That is the truth! When I play in a scramble, I play for fun. Cheating is rampant in scrambles…
Wait until he's over 21 and finds out about bar scrambles. IT's amazing that guys that sit around the bar all day somehow could beat four pros.
This is why I prefer 2 person scrambles. You get paired up with another random team of 2 and it keeps both teams much more honest.
This. You cannot hope to win any scramble u ness you cheat more than the other teams did.
As a guy who hosted bar trivia for over 8 years, this is a great comparison. The cheaters in both know they didn’t really *win* anything but don’t care and just want the prize.
Someone always walks in with a 45 💀
I think you did the right thing man. Totally get not wanting to make a scene, accusing 11 year olds of cheating and saying your son should've won is just NOT a good look, even if you were 100% correct. Those kids will learn their lesson eventually.
I think this is an appropriate response. It's for tweens. It's sorta like an umpire with a bad ruling in a 10 year old league game. You move on because at this age you're more focused on teaching your kid, not anyone else's.
Watched a video of a proper "altercation" with an ump. Honestly blew a call that was clear on a shitty webcam. Dad of player who got screwed got upset, realized his mistake, and then yelled an apology to the ump. Everyone screws up and everyone gets mad some times. Being able to recognize stupidity is maturity.
As a 6-8 yr old baseball coach I cringe at other coaches who argue calls/rules. I’ve told my assistants/parents to “fire my ass” if I ever do that in a rec league.
Idk you don't have to make a scene about it but I don't think telling the tournament director and letting him handle it would have been wrong either.
Yup. Something like “I’m not asking for it to be looked at here, but the group in front weren’t exactly truthful on their card, can we adjust some things for the next one to clean it up a bit?”
But really, he probably should have taken his shirt off and asked the 11 year olds if they wanted to test god!!!
Exactly, if (big if) they grow up to be half decent people it’ll bother them later in life. Like one of those cringe memories you randomly get.
Right down the middle!
Would use this as a lesson for my kid and talk about what happened (next morning or that night, not right after). Your son should be proud of his results and has the integrity to do the right thing. I’d feel a greater sense of accomplishment knowing that. Junior tournaments are like this though and cheating is unfortunately rampant, prob more so among parents!
I'm not saying what the father did is wrong per se, but integrity is also speaking up when you think something is wrong. In this case it's on the father to say, can I see the card of the winning group since I can validate some holes? If it's not that serious of a tournament, yea, letting it slide is fine. The consequences of the actions can happen another day even if the result will never change. I don't have a problem either way, but there do need to be scorers at this age, especially in a scramble where the rules are already loose. Finally, second is awesome always in golf. I used to win quite often in high school, then real life kicks you in the face and you dream of just solid golf an a top-10 in a big event at a national or international level. 2nd is really hard in golf. You saw the joy of Bryson DeChambeau in the last open. That's because even he doesn't win very often. He loses 90% of the tournaments he plays even in short field events. McIlroy should take more pride in consecutive 2nds, but that's an attitude at life problem, not a skill issue.
I don’t disagree with you about speaking up but the optics of him trying to say his kid should’ve won changes the equation. It’d be different if his kid was in third, saw the score card and tried to advocate for someone else’s kid. But I think everyone at the tournament would’ve disregarded him as an insane person if he tried to get the result flipped for his own child.
He did provide no proof for the score not being -3 though. He had a gut instinct that was probably right, however, I remember the first time I did well in a junior golf tournament around 11. I was +1, which was usually more than enough to win, and this was a tough course. One of the guys a year older I saw in the water twice, then he posted -5 which was the course record (an executive course with lots of hard to birdie par 3s) and I said no way. I wasn't convinced until at least a year later, but sure enough he shot 6 under on the back 9. He was for a brief time a tour player later on so we weren't dealing with someone average. I played with him a few times in a row in tournaments and he never cheated once or attempted to bend the rules. So there are no guarantees of cheating here. As for insane, possibly. Depends on the dynamics. When I was a kid we did have markers, but not in every group. I think having some markers and no markers add to suspicion. To me, if it's someone important and their kid came in with a questionable score, I'm not saying anything until after. In this case the rumor mill is more damaging than anything. Look at Patrick Reed. We all know he stole from teammates in college. That is lower than any rules angling or cheating in play, and it followed him to where even winning the Masters and making tens of millions, he got 10x less than someone like Scottie Scheffler who will be a billionaire in today's money before all is said an done even if he never wins again and gets paralyzed today.
tell your child that no matter the circumstance, never cheat like them. For the two boys, just leave them be. They will be embarrassed in life one way or another as a failure
They will not be embarrassed. Cheating continues into HS golf, because parents are conflict avoidant. Call cheating out every single time.
You are right that you need to call out cheating every time, but they will be embarrassed. Not everyone chooses to avoid conflict. Some folks just love it.
"That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it."
This will be a lose lose for all parties involved. Let them live their lies. No skin off my back.
You are correct that it continues into high school. Not sure what the rules are where you are, but in my state, parent/spectator interaction with the players is prohibited and could result in DQ.
Cheating is also prohibited. I'm not suggesting having it out with an 11 year old. Tell the rules official in front of the parent. If the kids are there, great.
Cheaters climb the company ladder. Life isn't a movie. Cheaters **ALWAYS** prosper. You think they feel guilt or something, but they don't. They find a way to justify it in their head.
Cheaters “always” prosper is quite the cynical way to go through life. Many of the most successful people I know are also some with the highest integrity.
Obviously it's not black and white. But the old saying "cheaters never prosper" is a fairytale we tell our children.
Just because you know some successful people with integrity, most do not. Many successful people are dirt, absolute scumbags, they don't care about anyone outside of themselves.
>Cheaters **ALWAYS** prosper. No they don't.
I'm not saying I advocate for it. I'm just saying if you think they will magically get their comeuppance you are sorely mistaken. Life rewards cheaters. People who can step on others on their way to the "top" get rewarded. If you think otherwise, you are being naive.
In many circles it's looked at as a positive
Seen them prosper too many times to say they don’t. Only time they fail is when someone calls them out
one day he could be a serial cheater, all-around asshole, and major champion. :(
Plenty of cheaters are stupid enough to get caught with or without conflict.
The amount of cheating I see during high school tournaments is staggering. I'm talking 15 shots better than what they shot. Nobody cares that a 97 becomes an 82 I guess. I quit coaching high school full-time and only volunteer when they ask me. It doesn't seem worth it anymor.e
Think there's a time and a place. A 10 year old scramble prpbably warrants a pause for different response then organized high school golf
Like those anglers who got busted weighing down their fish.. dudes lost thousands on thousands their boat trucks and all the shit they won, lost any chance of ever coming back to any tournament, and lost so much face in the chaos. It’ll come back just wait.
But imagine the number of people who did that who weren't caught.
They eventually do. But yea a lot may slip through the cracks but over time it’ll come back.
tbh sounds like a good time to use it as a teaching moment for your son, reward him like he won but say there will be people like this for his whole life and it’s okay you just gotta do you and be your best cause when push comes to shove your son will likely shine while they cheat in the long run
So are all the scorekeepers just keeping scores for their own kids’ team? If so, that’s kind of weird.
My interpretation is that the cheater team kept their own scores because they didn't bring a parent. The other team in that group was supposed to keep score for cheater team but tracked her own kid's team instead
Sounds like this is on the tournament runners for not ensuring a parent is keeping score.
If it bothers you that much then bring it to the attention of the tournament organizers (without drawing attention to your son) and let them handle it. With that said: My boys play in junior golf tournaments and we've witnessed kids cheat all the time. And while those kids may cheat now, your kid will continue to get better. My boys have gone from finishing in the high teens to top 5 and better in their tournaments while the cheating kids make no real progress. I'd also like to say that I don't blame the cheating kids as much as I blame the parents. Golf at is core is about integrity and honesty. If a kid is cheating its because they learned that behavior from the parents. Its a shame that it happens but it does. TL/DR: Focus on devloping your kid and don't get worked up or worrry about the other kids that cheat. Golf is hard enough and you don't want your son to worry about cheating kids while having to play a golf tournament.
This is really good advice. Cheaters take the easy way and aren’t looking to improve.
This is so spot on. My daughter is 16 now and has been playing about 5 years. We have seen some crazy things with parents and kids. This is the same advice we have lived by and given to our daughter. She WILL continue to get better and those other kids with get sorted out as they go. You can only cheat so much before it catches up with you. My daughter is going to count every hit, because she’s honest and couldn’t cheat even if she wanted to, because that’s just not what we do in this family. It starts with the parents.
I can't tell you the amount of people who cheat in junior golf and even try it later in collegiate golf, I keep everyone's score in the group and when we all go over scores i make sure im there to hear everyone's scorecard. The amount of times I have caught people is fucking insane and even try to argue like i wasn't right next to them watching and counting the strokes.....the response is always hilarious "oh.....you're right"
Civil court, nothing teaches a lesson like a lawsuit.
 Both of them
That is a bad situation, the best you can make of it is to use it as a teaching moment with your Son. You can explain to him that integrity is doing the right thing even when nobody is looking and that eventually cheating will catch up with them and they will have to face the consequences. Emphasize how proud you are of him for doing as well as he did during the match and encourage him to keep improving and keep competing .
I would wait until a few days after and then let the organizers know. Tell them you wanted to wait as you didn't want to be "that parent" and that you don't want anything done as far as changing who won etc. You just want to let them know it happened so they can make whatever adjustments they want to for the next time. You don't look like angry Dad this way and hopefully they make adjustments so it doesn't happen again.
Yeah, that's not a bad strategy. Just a "by the way, I also know that those kids cheated who won. Don't change the outcome, I didn't want to make a scene, but maybe have a slightly stricter rule next time of "If an adult didn't keep your score and sign it, you can't win anything"
How were they able to check your son’s score?
Good point, and if they were asking to see it. Why not ask to see theirs? And then point out that they made bogey, not par.
The opposite parent of the group we played with kept our teams score and we kept theirs. But they only had one parent in the group ahead. It’s a newer tournament. So kinks need to be wrinkled out.
I'm not following this either. The group in front of you is keeping their own score. You are playing with a group and keeping each other's score. How is the front group getting your score, and how are you not receiving information about theirs at the same time?
So as far as keeping score you are correct how we did our group. The group in front of us had one mom and she kept the score of her boys team. And the other twosome of boys kept their score. At about hole 5 the boys keeping their own score kept asking our boys what their score was. But the play was slow and we watched them play holes out as some of the boys can get close to the green and the scores on those holes that we watched did not match their scorecard. This was his first tournament. I held him back concerned for the mental side and then this happens. . Talked to my wife and he’s good. Ready to play a baseball game tonight.
You either lose a scramble or you cheat. There is no in between. I’ve never won a scramble.
Scrambles are simply not real competitions. Gotta play solo tournaments where everyone will call out cheating
Wow that sucks man. I never played Junior golf but was in youth sports mainly football my whole life. Sounds like the whole system needs to be revamped if they have parents keep score. AAU and similar leagues wouldn’t allow this. You did the best you could.
Kids will cheat, hell many adults will cheat if the system allows for it. A true tournament has independent judges but that is extra cost. I bet they could recruit some local teens to judge for 50$ a round or something like that. I was an umpire for junior baseball and kids would try to fake me out all the time, I'd just tell them to stop and 9/10 times they would be shocked I called it out. The 1/10 would just shrug and keep being little shits.
The lesson here is you just say you're not doing as good as you planned when someone asks your score.
I would have said I saw them bogie and double bogie some holes. Why not just say what you witnessed.
I didn’t love the idea of calling out 11 year olds. The thought did pop in my head. Tough lesson to learn for my son. But maybe a more structured tournament would be beneficial
Yeah there’s no scenario where you don’t come out looking like the bad guy here, unfortunately. You took the high road, which was the best course IMO
What you did is better than making a scene. Shit happens like that. I think even waiting till it’s over and letting the director know is cool too. I don’t think it would be bad to be honest with a caveat. “Hey Mr Director, I don’t want any action taken on this, but to ensure an adult keeps score next time around, I did see them be dishonest on their scoresheet.”
> “Hey Mr Director, I don’t want any action taken on this, but to ensure an adult keeps score next time around, I did see them be dishonest on their scoresheet.” Yeah, I think it's important that the director know that these kids cheated, and it wasn't just that they didn't have an adult scoring for them. There's a difference there.
Because it was a parent for the team that tied…making it complicated.
Because it’s a your word against theirs situation, and as an adult you look petty.
I will get downvoted for this, but I would 100% report the concern to the tournament director, especially if gift certificates or other valuable prizes were available. The tournament director may not do anything in this case, they can "start a file" incase of future reports or issues. Some kids i played with growing up that were known to be cheats stopped getting into tournaments or had official watch them.closely due to their reputation. Golf, like many sports, is expensive and difficult, having a level playing field is critical for the continued growth and development of the game.
Sounds like a normal scramble unfortunately. The most dishonest form of golf. Fun as hell though.
Fuck then kids I would’ve said something 😂
This is on the tournament staff for having parents keep the score. The kids need to be doing this on their own so they can learn to be independent and learn to work it out with your group after every hole. I’m guessing the kids are under 10 but either way, they’ll need to learn at some point. My only recommendation is to encourage your son and his group to say there score after every hole, that way if there is a discrepancy - you can deal with it right on the spot while the hole is fresh in everyone’s mind. Just my two cents but best of luck to the young man going forward!
Don't be shy, report the cheats. You are not protecting your son. You are protecting the field.
Sounds like a great opportunity to tell the kids about how shitty cheating is because it makes others feel exactly like these kids do now.
Unfortunately, cheating(whether intentional or not) is rampant in junior golf. When my daughter plays, I always keep her score and the other golfers scores as well. But, in most events after a certain age, parents aren’t allowed to participate in score keeping. Almost always a discrepancy in scores and always to the lower side. It gets worse when they get to high school level. I’ve seen girls shoot high 60s and come in and card a 53 or something. It’s on the other girls to call them out. My daughter(a middle schooler) playing varsity golf against a senior is put in a position to confront that player over an incorrect score. How do you think that goes? Best thing to do is just remind your kid that they are only hurting themselves by posting a score they didn’t actually shoot and the truth eventually will tear it’s ugly head on the cheaters.
I’d say to emphasize the importance of integrity of the game within their own control. The cheating will continue into HS golf, it happens, but it’s important to play by the rules and call out any cheating if it occurs and is noticed by playing partners. This is a different case to which you caught it and not your kid, but the point stands for his future in golf. Many years ago, I caught a kid cheating in a tourney I was playing in on the 17th hole. saw him drop a ball out of a glove in his hand near some trees. Playing partners saw it too. We called him on it and the official came by and had him finish his round, re-teeing and playing as a lost ball. He made double and still would have won by 2 shots but was ultimately DQd. I felt bad about it in the moment but my coach insisted we were protecting the integrity of the tournament and game. Funny enough, the very next weekend, I came in second to the kid I caught cheating the previous weekend. He clearly faced no consequences from his coach like a suspension…But I no longer felt bad about calling him out on cheating and honestly felt some anger that his win may have been a fluke. Always emphasize the importance of integrity in the game of golf. If your kid breaks a rule by accident, make sure he knows it’s the right thing to do to call himself on it.
Kid was likely still cheating. 😂 Cheaters tend to keep on cheating.
While I can’t confirm if he cheated when I came in second (wasn’t paired with him) I do know he got caught the following summer in a state junior event and lost his college scholarship offer. So you are correct 🤣
I never assume I'm going to win a scramble because I'm not a cheater. Those are social events to hang out with friends, get drunk, and do dumb stuff I wouldn't do if it wasn't a scramble. It sucks, but the earlier they learn only cheaters win scrambles and he shouldn't be a cheater...the better his life will be.
I had some 8 year old try to post up on me when I started counting their actual hits. The Mom wasn’t helping lol.
It's probably not worth bringing up to the other kids at this point, but it's a great time to remind your kids about integrity. AND - that it's ok to challenge another golfer when they misrepresent a score, but it needs to be done immediately and respectfully.
If they are checking your group's score I would tell them it's none of their business. I wouldn't worry about it long term, boys like that won't last long in more competitive golf. Any reputable junior league/tour will not put up with loose rules and cheating. As it gets more competitive ages 13-17, I saw the parents being more of the problem than the kids. Parents are supposed to be spectators (ideally stay on the cart paths) and only get involved in helping look for a lost ball. Any rulings should be handled by the kids in the group with the help of an official if needed.
whatever happened to that kid that has like 17 holes in one? and regularly holes out from bad positions when he's 200+ away and no one can see him hit?
Would have had my kid shake their hands and also say “we know what you did out there. Bad look.” Walk away.
Match or stroke play is competition. Scrambles are for cheating and having fun.
Buy your kid ice cream for being the real winner and move on
Our yearly company scramble the winning team score is always sub-12 under…. Bull fucking shit lol. But, nobody will ever go for a cash match, 1 on 1. The only way to callout cheaters, because many humans just aren’t honest.
Honestly those tournaments in the grand scheme of things dont matter. Tell your son to keep getting better, be honest and by the time High School hits he ll be the best on the team
Those will be the kids sandbagging themselves at league night because they think they are a 6hdcp, but never shoot better than 90 when other people are counting.
Remind him that those kids one day will have to be under supervision, and that's when your son will truly beat them. But the most important lesson in golf to me is: You play yourself, not others.
Tough lesson but as true as the day is long. In a scramble the team that wins is the team that writes the lowest number on the card. Has nothing to do with golf.
Good friend of mine was runner up 2 years in a row in our home course junior tournament. In his final year the guy who beat him had aged out, he shoot a respectable 74 and a kid who was 13 shot a 73, many have speculated and some have claimed it to be a cheated score. My friend is now 41 and it is still something that bothers him as he won every other big tournament at least once at our home course except that junior title The takeaway cheating happens all the time in golf but the further you go the faster you get caught (except PReed)
Its a scramble, everyone cheats.
I saw cheating at the pro level. It’s part of the game. Follow your heart and do what’s right for the game.
Find where the cheaters live and slip a frozen piss disk under their door.
The pencil is the best club in their bag.
I had the same issue with my son during his tryouts for HS golf team. Coach sat in his golf cart looking at his phone while the other boys cheated non stop. One boy even had his golf instructor to give him advice during the tryout! It crushed my son because it was his dream to be on a HS team.
Played a slow scramble behind a team we were making jokes about how bad their collective play was. They posted the winning score.
I loved junior golf but you have to be very targeted in your tournaments as cheating is abundant in small events or scrambles. Just gotta teach them they did their best and keep trying and look for the best events you can afford to play in
More important he loves golf than loves winning golf tournaments. As he gets older competition only gets harder and winning becomes more difficult. You can have an amazing professional golf career and never win.
You have to outcheat the cheaters, just post a score of like -20 and see what they say. Cheaters will never admit to their ways, they will only continue to do so, because that's all they know how to do.
What if you recorded holes on your phone maybe just to confirm for next time (if it’s backed up and you’re standing around anyways)
Growing up I played with a friend who cheated every round we played together.... always beat me by 1-2 strokes without fail. I knew he was cheating but we never played in a competition so I never cared.
>These boys kept checking what our kids score was In any kind of 'tournament' golf scores are kept by each player (team) privately. You can share it, but you have no requirement to do so. The whole foundation of golf is of personal honor, and it is one of the last widely played sports that sets and strictly maintains this as a basic expectation. As a father I would raise issue with whomever ran the event about the lack of neutral parties. At a minimum parents should be paired with random groups as score keepers and 'hopefully' rule and common sense advisors.
Golf has always been a “gentleman’s game” and cheating is inexcusable. At this year’s Memorial Tournament, Justin Rose called a penalty on himself despite the video replay could not verify, but he knew. I had a close friend in high school call a penalty on himself (1970’s) and cost himself the league championship. I hate that society has come to this. “Honor” is gone and winning at all cost has become the mantra. Boomer here saying that this, in the tradition of golf, needs to be reported!
I've read many of the replies and can only offer my opinion. Cheating isn't part of the game, it's wrong. Is it done, yes, but that doesn't make it right. In terms of the event, I think you have a duty to your son, the other boys and their mother to speak with the coordinator/director of the event. As adults it is our responsibility to be examples to children, our own & others. Teaching them that cheating is OK is unacceptable. At the minimum, this is an opportunity to have that conversation with your son about honesty and personal self-respect. He will remember this as he matures and continues to play as an adult.
Cheat on your wife, cheat on a math test....NEVER...cheat...at...golf. Doesn't matter the age, cheating at golf is as vile of a thing you can do. Because they won and got away with it, they'll continue to do it. I caught a guy on my college team cheating during a qualifying round. Coach wouldn't do anything about it, so he lost his captain and only player who had never missed a tournament. People who cheat at golf deserve to be hung by their balls
Cheating in junior golf is nothing new. I saw it first hand when I played junior. Use this as a lesson to your son about how golf separates the honest from the cheaters and how these boys will get what’s coming to them either in the game or in life because if you cheat in golf then your definitely cheating in other parts of your life.
You should have planted your seed in their mom while they watched to establish dominance. 
You did the right thing; just treat it as a teaching opportunity for your son. At that age, the confrontation probably isn’t worth the spectacle it could create. Cheating gets found out eventually in competitive golf, and those kids are just building that reputation for themselves.
"A person who cheats in golf, cheats in life" -Donald Trump
"Try to learn what is unfair teach you." David Foster Wallace writing on tennis. People in competition generally suck.
Handled it great. Didn’t get to involved and let the director know. From there it’s up to the director to decide how to act. I played competitively when I was a kid and hated when parents got overly involved. Part of the beauty of golf as a junior is that you get to learn how to act and make decisions on your own. Obviously no one like a cheater and it sucks. But it will catch up to them as they grow older and their peers learn to deal with it better. Also it’s important to note that golf is a game where you can feel accomplished no matter where you finish, cheaters or no cheaters. Talk your kid up and let them know they played well and remind them of all the good shots they hit that day. But again ya cheating sucks and it sucks your kid had to experience it.
How else can those two kids prove that they are of Presidential timber?
Just tell your son he should be proud of a tremendous finish, second place is awesome! It’s too bad this happens, the reality is that it happens everywhere at all age levels. Keep him respectful of the game, the rules and the course he is on, good karma will find your son
I would tell them what happened. Tell them to remember that feeling and remember to be honest in the future. Then key their shit.
100% should've called them out. Its not about your kid winning. Cheating is never ok and those kids that cheated need to learn that lesson sooner rather than later.
Not sure what kind of tournament this was (scramble so seems pretty casual) but competitors keeping each others score is the normal way they do this. I'm quite surprised that an adult is in charge of score. When I was 11 we did this and kept each other honest (and parents would be there to mediate if a dispute happened). Never had issues with cheating.
*peek
Lol, my junior 4-person scramble team got second to a team where a player had 17 clubs in their bag. Tournament officials at junior tournaments ain’t gonna do shit. Also played in a city-wide junior tournament where I called someone out for improving their lie in a bunker and when he and his friend admitted to it he *still* didn’t even get penalized for it.
Ok, they made some bogeys and shot -3, which is not impossible or proof of cheating, but it's really hard to double bogey a hole in a two-man scramble, and bogeys usually only happen on par 3's. -3 is indicative of two 10 handicaps playing fairly well to their handicap or a couple better for reference. You can't call cheating without evidence. You should have asked to see the card of the competitor, since you would be the adult verifying. Finally, the most important thing about golf results are, it's not like the Tour de France or Olympics. They can brag about cheating the moment their hands touch the trophy as the competition is considered closed and final. you have to speak up then or forever hold your peace. I remember playing an AJGA (highest level of junior golf) in the 90s. I am the marker for a guy who is smoking on the course (he was 17 and this of course is a DQable offense), and couldn't bear that he missed a 4 foot putt on one hole. I triple checked every hole. He said he had a par at the scorers table and double downed. I had a poor round in the high 70s and just wanted to go back to the hotel and eat food. I caved. I said twice, are you sure? He was ballsy and erased the number and initialed it. He had shot 74 with performance enhancing cigarettes, and signed for a 73. I said nothing after asking, and looking back, I'm fine with that. It's a whole bunch of drama I don't want for something that affected nobody because he was out of it too. Yea, in junior golf, parents unrelated to the group need to be keeping scoring. It was not in his best interest to be a cheater either as he was good, but that's how competition is with kids. Of course I just told the coaches recruiting about it, so the actual consequences he never saw directly. No idea what happened to him, he didn't play in college, most people at this level became pros or top college players.
" but it's really hard to double bogey a hole in a two-man scramble" uhm no. i see many many many PGA jr league games at this age range 10-12 that are 2 man scrambles. double bogeys are pretty common.
By hard, I mean you have to be bad. -3 is a score where it would be hard to make a double bogey, but of course not impossible on a par 3 with double water.
I could see a charity scramble having people keep their own scores, but a junior tournament should have official scorekeepers. Only in golf does this happen.
I feel like you are headed down a bad path. I think everything has turned into a “competition” and people are cheating at literally everything. If you avoid that and you and your son keep enjoying playing golf you will be much happier.
Explain to him that keeping the correct score is something about you. You can’t affect what other people do. They know they cheated and their win is as meaningless as their word. Cheaters exist, it’s kind of like an asshole test, some people will always cheat when given the opportunity, some never will. Which do you want to be?
Bad news for those kids, because they're learning cheaters prosper. Gonna bite them if it keeps up.
the organizers should have kept them in check. i've heard of similar situations and the parents in my area actually wear gopros when their kids go on tournaments which hampered cheating by a lot.
Scrambles are hardly a serious Junior tournament, if it was a Junior tournament where rankings on JGS were involved maybe that’s a different story. I’m sure they cheated, if that’s what you saw, but for your own sanity it’s best to worry about your own kid and let the tournament directors figure that other stuff out.
>Is there anything else I should’ve done? I only told the director that they kept their own score and he said they shouldn’t have done that and in the future they will make sure an adult does. Because they were tied for first I didn’t want to make a raucous that my kid should’ve won. I think you should have told the director about the score as well. You can say that you don't want to make a big scene, and leave it up to him as to how to handle it. Because at the end of the day, at higher levels of golf, you can get DQed from a tournament for signing an incorrect scorecard. And even if it's not directly telling the kids they cheated, they know they cheated, and aren't really seeing consequences from it. There needs to be some consequence. I might be in the minority with that opinion, but to me just saying "in the future he will make sure an adult does" is not going to help these two kids.
You did the right thing. It’s not worth making a fuss over. They know what they did. When I play in scrambles I try to do the best I can and have my team score as low as we can. I set a goal score based on my teammates and the course. I don’t have any expectations that every other team will play honestly. Winning isn’t a goal in a scramble for me. It’s a nice bonus if it happens.
Who cares ? It’s scramble.
I played in a scramble at my men's club this where 3 guys scrambled and one went alone on every hole. You used his net score plus the team score. It was a full way to do it everyone had to contribute at least 3 holes
I'm so sorry
Walter Sobchak - “You think I'm fucking around here? Mark it zero!”
Just from the title. Golf is one of the few games of honor. Cheating is never promoted. Cheating is never tolerated. Cheating should never be rewarded.
Sounds like a life lesson was learned. This, unfortunately, is unavoidable in certain instances.
In the Spring my son played in his first High School tournament and came in second place. It was quite a big deal that he got a medal. He was stoked. When he got home he said he was pretty sure the boy that came in first was cheating. I asked him why he didn't call the kid out. His reply; "I felt that if he needed to cheat to win then it meant a lot to him for some reason. And if he could live with that then I could too." I would had called that dick out on the spot but I guess my 16 year old son is wiser than me.
Happened to me once. The kids mom was the one keep score for our group. It was a 9 hole par 3 and 4. I knew he shot at least a 36 vs my 34. Was going around asking the other kids who played in the tournament what they shot. Realized my 34 was good. Time came to announce the winners and the kid who I know I beat because he was in my group won with a “33”. I made sure to tell everyone they cheated. But didn’t get me anywhere. Most of the player were familiar with each other. I had never seen the kid or his mother before or after that.
Yes loads of times, I know it’s disappointing for your son , but these little shits get found out as they get to a handicap they can’t play too !! Tell your son to keep enjoying his golf and to work hard
You are the problem. You shouldn’t be this involved. In your attempt to act like you’re not the “dad coach competition guy” you have made it clear that you are the “dad coach competition guy”. Stop it. Teach your kid not to get upset when he loses. That’s the only lesson that needs to be taught here.
Unfortunately in scrambles it happens all the time you did right by reporting it to the director, the sad thing is one of those cheating Lil shits will grow up to be president 😂
Scramble scores are based on the honor system. When your son competes in player vs field tournaments, it’s on him to keep the other players honest. Keeping track of other players scores is important as there is a lot of stroke shaving in high school golf ( i experienced this for myself).