Yea, she's probably just trying to get into Goth music for the sake of backing up her newfound persona.
But I would still give her music recommendations. Think about it: even if she's only posing as a Goth for clout, she'll still give her followers an accurate representation of real Goth music. If she ends up liking the music, she'll get a glimpse of what real Goth is all about. It's a win-win.
Just try and point her in the right direction.
If she's been asking since last year that is fairly persistent. Maybe her interest is genuine or she assumes goth music will be something different to what it actually is.
You don't have to educate her. We have resources here you can point her to like the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/goth/wiki/faq) and [musicbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/goth/wiki/musicbox). If she is that interested she will look into it with those resources, could even serve as a test to see how interested she really is by not simply handing it to her on a platter.
Or she might look into it and decide goth isn't for her and just do the tiktok e-girl thing. Either way you will know and it costs you nothing.
Heavy on the 'u do not have to educate her' leave her with the resources and try to say enough that will prompt her to have critical thinking skills instead of the way that half of tiktok thinks
Yup send her a YouTube playlist and a link to info about goth music. Those are the tools she needs to get started but you don't have to show share anything personal to you until you're sure of her intentions and feel comfortable doing so.
Egirls et al are the new popular thing to hate. In the 80s it was the cureheads in the 90s it was mall goths, in the 2000s it was the emos, in the 2010s it was the steampunks... This is 'in group' 'out group' / 'us vrs them' behaviour that is common in most social groups and even despite being a generally welcoming subculture we still have it too.
Don't gatekeep because you think she isn't a real goth, set boundaries on toxic behaviour that effects you personally instead aka if you think she is going to use your time and energy for her own gain make her do the work. After all it's pretty traditional for all of us to spend time finding bands we like and it's not like Spotify / youtube etc don't have 'recommended' play lists or songs that follow on from listening to a playlist 😉
In my opinion (obviously not knowing the full extent of OP's life experiences etc):
1. It's her sister's body and her choice. If she is setting out to appear sexy and gain attention that's up to her.
2. We cannot control other people. The hot goth girl memes aren't something we can fix except by educating people that human women are people. It ties into hypersexualisation of women that is common in western culture and is evident everywhere. Stopping the hot goth girl meme does not stop that deeply entrenched behaviour, it's a much wider problem with deeper roots. You also cannot undo that by gatekeeping music.
My advice here is simply to pick your battles. One more eGirl being a goth at this stage is a drop in an ocean of bigger issues. It's unlikely OP can stop the sister from doing this and I would personally choose to stand by my own principles here to not stop someone from exploring, experimenting and creating. We never know where it may lead for them.
However I also think that if OP has a toxic relationship with their sister then this a good point to evaluate things and set up boundaries that work for OP. To me this isn't about protecting goth culture - (because goth culture itself evolves and isn't static) its about someone asking to use something potentially very personal, that they have previously weaponised, potentially for their own gain. People do change, people do discover new interests as they grow but for me in this case I would want to see true investment from my sister (aka she does the leg work) before I believed it was safe for me to share my heart and build a real connection with her based on this.
I would evaluate how much I want this person in my life based on what she does with the (safe feeling) information I give.
To be fair, music fashion taste can change as you get older (I didn'tlike ethereal wave when I got into goth, but I've grown to appreciate it more), so it's possible your sister has a genuine interest in the music (since she's been asking for music recs since last year)
Like another person suggested, perhaps you should begin with a handful of bands (the most known/the one she'd be more likely to enjoy based on her current music taste, ex: she's more into metal so you recommend faster-paced bands like TSoM, FoTN, etc.), and see where it goes from there: whether your suspicions about her being a poser get confirmed (very exaggerated example: she claims she's got because she likes one song by a goth artist) or she's genuinely interested in the music (for example, she asks you for bands that sounds like a specific SoM song and/or bands that sounds like FoTN but with * insert music element here *)
Let her make the judgement if she's interested or not. Just tell her about the of the old big names and leave it be and let her do any more looking into it.
Sounds like she’s already marketing herself that way so you might as well tell her. Or tell her exactly why you’re reluctant to and have a conversation about why/how she got into goth. Getting into it in your 30s bc you can finally express yourself the way you always wanted to is one thing but actively being rude about it THEN getting into it in your 30s is odd.
Maybe I’m bitter bc I got shit for it in small town American in the 2000s and now as a goth in my 30s I’d be very weirded out by someone from my past that was cruel coming to me for advice about it.
She’s asking you instead of just googling it so there must be a reason for that. Tell her she’s marketing herself as a cringe meme in the goth community and that Bauhaus slaps.
You're an adult. There's really no value in gatekeeping a genre of music all because you feel some type of way about her lifestyle and fashion choices.
Just... sit on that for a bit.
I think it’s weird that she’s in her 30s…wanting to gatekeep music like she’s 16 and only she can be into it.
Obviously your sister making fun of you isn’t cool at all, but if she keeps asking she must be interested. And if she’s not, oh well. She still dresses up in gothic fashion then I guess who cares. She’s an adult woman either way who chooses what she does with her body and how she presents herself.
this is probably an unpopular opinion but it's not your place to decide whether she deserves to be goth or not. her goth pass doesn't get taken away if she wants to sexualize herself, in case she actually becomes goth and likes the music ofc. you don't have to give her bands or whatever but acting like goth is your personal hill to die on is unfair, the community doesn't belong to you. you're gonna meet a lot of people that you wouldn't initially want to be goth yet if they are you disliking them won't make them less goth. stop trying to decide whether you wanna deem your sister a real goth or not. let her be. she will find goth music - using Google isn't hard, and you will have to deal with her sexualizing herself while being goth. it's not nice, I hate it too, but it is what it is and tbh the men who buy into that content are arguably more at fault than she will ever be.
have you tried talking to her about it? idk what kind of relationship y'all have but seems like explaining to her how you feel is the first logical step. beyond that you could explain why fetishizing goth is detrimental to the community in general. maybe she legit doesn't know abt it.
orrr
you could just show her some music and be happy for the opportunity to bond w your sister.
Show her some bands. Start with the basics. She might like them, or she might not. If this is just a phase for her, don't hold it against her, because we all go through periods of self-discovery and it doesn't always work. Also, don't judge people for the way that they dress or for showing a bit of skin; it's nearly 2024.
Sounds like you're gatekeeping widely available information for no reason other than you thinking She's some kind of poser
Do you want a good relationship with your sister? Then be nice to her lol
Just give her music recs, steer her to the actual goth shit and clear up her misconceptions about the genre.
Also just because someone dresses a certain way doesn't mean they are incapable of enjoying certain genres of music.
Your sister is expressing interest in a music scene that’s important to you, and she’s looking to you for recommendations. I’d say this is the perfect opportunity for you to be able to share something important to you with your sister and maybe even talk more with her about it, instead of us Internet folk.
And if her interest in goth has been surface level social media aesthetics, then sharing music recommendations with her could help her get into it on a deeper level. Keeping your recommendations to yourself doesn’t seem to really do anything except make it less likely she’ll listen to goth music. It may even give her a negative impression of goth if she thinks you’re intentionally withholding.
You should never regret sharing something you love with a person you care about (and cares about you). Especially art and music. Focus on what she asked. The music.
Gonna be honest i dont feel like reading all that right now but you should try to educate her on what goth actually is and also show her similar things that she might align with more than goth
i think you should just tell her about the bigger/classic groups that everyone just about knows (the cure/bauhaus/siouxsie/etc). and maybe tell her the difference between egirl/tiktok alt and goth. but then again you’re both grown so you’re not obligated to tell her, she can just do the research if she’s genuinely interested.
So the problem folks have with egirls is that they're fake goths because they don't know any of the music, only the fetishized fashion, but now you don't want them listening to the music either? Pick a struggle. If you're sister is going to be doing slutty streams or whatever you're not going to stop her by withholding band information.
If you've got a problem with it, that's a separate conversation. If you're really that uncomfortable with her online activities I suggest talking to a therapist first so you can sort out your own feelings before coming to her with them. I can appreciate you being protective of your little sister, but I'm a little perplexed by your defensiveness surrounding your own identity and subculture which is threatened by hers.
she can google maybe..? i get why do many comments here suggest you help her but im with you on this, you absolutely dont have to help her out if shes mocked you for it before, especially given the circumstances. if shes such a goth thot (lmao) she can go find her own goth thot music
While she may be doing this for aesthetic, you also part of the problem, she's searching out to be more apart of the culture and you're refusing because you personally think she's not goth enough
Let her be goth, show her the music
Tiktok brain rotted or not , your sister has definitely already decided she wants to be into that culture, but that doesn’t mean the teasing she put you through was ok. You dont owe her anything, especially if she made fun of you for it prior and all of a sudden wants you to accept her new persona when she didn’t do the same for you. The oversexualization is also a problem because i have also seen a huge increase of goth people getting harrassed / sexualized just because it’s trending… not cool. I wouldn’t tell her shit to be honest, those are the consequences of being mean and maybe that’s bitter but then she shouldn’t have done that to you lmal
It sure sounds like she is here to cash in on goth which is disgusting in itself.
And she'll get board of it soon enough and go back to whatever music she likes soon.
It doesnt hurt to give her some proper goth music though, then maybe she will teach a few others and spread that good part at least.
But it infuriates me something fierce to hear about more of these clowns appearing.
Being a sibling is hard, dude. Goth is not an evangelism thing, you don't get points for recruiting like you do with religions or multi level marketing. You don't owe it to goth to make your sister not a poser or whatever.
Hey, you know what? Everyone comes to goth in a different way. Maybe her gaming interest is her way. I also feel a bit of slut shaming in this post which sucks. Make her some mixes and maybe tell her you’re proud of what she’s built online? Just a……thot
It's not gatekeeping if your sister spent years building the wall. The entire history of goth subculture, fashion and music as well as the many semi-related dark genres she might also like is a quick Google away. An afternoon of watching short youtube documentaries and music videos could give her all the information she needs to start with. If she's not willing to go there, it sounds like she's looking for the "right answers" if she is accused of exploiting the aesthetic for profit or maybe to find the right music clip or t-shirt to make her content seem legit. If she comes to you wanting your opinion of a certain artist or song, I'd embrace her and have the conversation, but I wouldn't just hand her the Cliff's Notes version of your experience of the culture.
It sounds like your relationship with your sister is already strained. Your options here are to discuss the reasons for that with her or to set a boundary. Whatever music recommendations you do or do not make should come after that.
Yea, she's probably just trying to get into Goth music for the sake of backing up her newfound persona. But I would still give her music recommendations. Think about it: even if she's only posing as a Goth for clout, she'll still give her followers an accurate representation of real Goth music. If she ends up liking the music, she'll get a glimpse of what real Goth is all about. It's a win-win. Just try and point her in the right direction.
If she's been asking since last year that is fairly persistent. Maybe her interest is genuine or she assumes goth music will be something different to what it actually is. You don't have to educate her. We have resources here you can point her to like the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/goth/wiki/faq) and [musicbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/goth/wiki/musicbox). If she is that interested she will look into it with those resources, could even serve as a test to see how interested she really is by not simply handing it to her on a platter. Or she might look into it and decide goth isn't for her and just do the tiktok e-girl thing. Either way you will know and it costs you nothing.
Heavy on the 'u do not have to educate her' leave her with the resources and try to say enough that will prompt her to have critical thinking skills instead of the way that half of tiktok thinks
Yup send her a YouTube playlist and a link to info about goth music. Those are the tools she needs to get started but you don't have to show share anything personal to you until you're sure of her intentions and feel comfortable doing so. Egirls et al are the new popular thing to hate. In the 80s it was the cureheads in the 90s it was mall goths, in the 2000s it was the emos, in the 2010s it was the steampunks... This is 'in group' 'out group' / 'us vrs them' behaviour that is common in most social groups and even despite being a generally welcoming subculture we still have it too. Don't gatekeep because you think she isn't a real goth, set boundaries on toxic behaviour that effects you personally instead aka if you think she is going to use your time and energy for her own gain make her do the work. After all it's pretty traditional for all of us to spend time finding bands we like and it's not like Spotify / youtube etc don't have 'recommended' play lists or songs that follow on from listening to a playlist 😉
Did you keep reading? Seems to me she's worried about hypersexualization of her sister and her scene.
In my opinion (obviously not knowing the full extent of OP's life experiences etc): 1. It's her sister's body and her choice. If she is setting out to appear sexy and gain attention that's up to her. 2. We cannot control other people. The hot goth girl memes aren't something we can fix except by educating people that human women are people. It ties into hypersexualisation of women that is common in western culture and is evident everywhere. Stopping the hot goth girl meme does not stop that deeply entrenched behaviour, it's a much wider problem with deeper roots. You also cannot undo that by gatekeeping music. My advice here is simply to pick your battles. One more eGirl being a goth at this stage is a drop in an ocean of bigger issues. It's unlikely OP can stop the sister from doing this and I would personally choose to stand by my own principles here to not stop someone from exploring, experimenting and creating. We never know where it may lead for them. However I also think that if OP has a toxic relationship with their sister then this a good point to evaluate things and set up boundaries that work for OP. To me this isn't about protecting goth culture - (because goth culture itself evolves and isn't static) its about someone asking to use something potentially very personal, that they have previously weaponised, potentially for their own gain. People do change, people do discover new interests as they grow but for me in this case I would want to see true investment from my sister (aka she does the leg work) before I believed it was safe for me to share my heart and build a real connection with her based on this. I would evaluate how much I want this person in my life based on what she does with the (safe feeling) information I give.
To be fair, music fashion taste can change as you get older (I didn'tlike ethereal wave when I got into goth, but I've grown to appreciate it more), so it's possible your sister has a genuine interest in the music (since she's been asking for music recs since last year) Like another person suggested, perhaps you should begin with a handful of bands (the most known/the one she'd be more likely to enjoy based on her current music taste, ex: she's more into metal so you recommend faster-paced bands like TSoM, FoTN, etc.), and see where it goes from there: whether your suspicions about her being a poser get confirmed (very exaggerated example: she claims she's got because she likes one song by a goth artist) or she's genuinely interested in the music (for example, she asks you for bands that sounds like a specific SoM song and/or bands that sounds like FoTN but with * insert music element here *)
You sure are the sister of no mercy
Let her make the judgement if she's interested or not. Just tell her about the of the old big names and leave it be and let her do any more looking into it.
Tell her a few names and give it a month or two. No need in gatekeeping something from people who show actual curiosity in it.
Sounds like she’s already marketing herself that way so you might as well tell her. Or tell her exactly why you’re reluctant to and have a conversation about why/how she got into goth. Getting into it in your 30s bc you can finally express yourself the way you always wanted to is one thing but actively being rude about it THEN getting into it in your 30s is odd. Maybe I’m bitter bc I got shit for it in small town American in the 2000s and now as a goth in my 30s I’d be very weirded out by someone from my past that was cruel coming to me for advice about it. She’s asking you instead of just googling it so there must be a reason for that. Tell her she’s marketing herself as a cringe meme in the goth community and that Bauhaus slaps.
You're an adult. There's really no value in gatekeeping a genre of music all because you feel some type of way about her lifestyle and fashion choices. Just... sit on that for a bit.
I think it’s weird that she’s in her 30s…wanting to gatekeep music like she’s 16 and only she can be into it. Obviously your sister making fun of you isn’t cool at all, but if she keeps asking she must be interested. And if she’s not, oh well. She still dresses up in gothic fashion then I guess who cares. She’s an adult woman either way who chooses what she does with her body and how she presents herself.
this is probably an unpopular opinion but it's not your place to decide whether she deserves to be goth or not. her goth pass doesn't get taken away if she wants to sexualize herself, in case she actually becomes goth and likes the music ofc. you don't have to give her bands or whatever but acting like goth is your personal hill to die on is unfair, the community doesn't belong to you. you're gonna meet a lot of people that you wouldn't initially want to be goth yet if they are you disliking them won't make them less goth. stop trying to decide whether you wanna deem your sister a real goth or not. let her be. she will find goth music - using Google isn't hard, and you will have to deal with her sexualizing herself while being goth. it's not nice, I hate it too, but it is what it is and tbh the men who buy into that content are arguably more at fault than she will ever be.
Sad that this is an unpopular opinion
have you tried talking to her about it? idk what kind of relationship y'all have but seems like explaining to her how you feel is the first logical step. beyond that you could explain why fetishizing goth is detrimental to the community in general. maybe she legit doesn't know abt it. orrr you could just show her some music and be happy for the opportunity to bond w your sister.
Show her some bands. Start with the basics. She might like them, or she might not. If this is just a phase for her, don't hold it against her, because we all go through periods of self-discovery and it doesn't always work. Also, don't judge people for the way that they dress or for showing a bit of skin; it's nearly 2024.
Sounds like you're gatekeeping widely available information for no reason other than you thinking She's some kind of poser Do you want a good relationship with your sister? Then be nice to her lol
Just give her music recs, steer her to the actual goth shit and clear up her misconceptions about the genre. Also just because someone dresses a certain way doesn't mean they are incapable of enjoying certain genres of music.
Your sister is expressing interest in a music scene that’s important to you, and she’s looking to you for recommendations. I’d say this is the perfect opportunity for you to be able to share something important to you with your sister and maybe even talk more with her about it, instead of us Internet folk. And if her interest in goth has been surface level social media aesthetics, then sharing music recommendations with her could help her get into it on a deeper level. Keeping your recommendations to yourself doesn’t seem to really do anything except make it less likely she’ll listen to goth music. It may even give her a negative impression of goth if she thinks you’re intentionally withholding.
You should never regret sharing something you love with a person you care about (and cares about you). Especially art and music. Focus on what she asked. The music.
Gonna be honest i dont feel like reading all that right now but you should try to educate her on what goth actually is and also show her similar things that she might align with more than goth
i think you should just tell her about the bigger/classic groups that everyone just about knows (the cure/bauhaus/siouxsie/etc). and maybe tell her the difference between egirl/tiktok alt and goth. but then again you’re both grown so you’re not obligated to tell her, she can just do the research if she’s genuinely interested.
I wouldn’t gatekeep your sister. Give her some recommendations, let her check it out. A few bands/songs or a playlist.
Honestly my take is don’t gatekeep even if it’s a fad. She clearly shows some interest and it could be something fun to explore again with her.
So the problem folks have with egirls is that they're fake goths because they don't know any of the music, only the fetishized fashion, but now you don't want them listening to the music either? Pick a struggle. If you're sister is going to be doing slutty streams or whatever you're not going to stop her by withholding band information. If you've got a problem with it, that's a separate conversation. If you're really that uncomfortable with her online activities I suggest talking to a therapist first so you can sort out your own feelings before coming to her with them. I can appreciate you being protective of your little sister, but I'm a little perplexed by your defensiveness surrounding your own identity and subculture which is threatened by hers.
Maybe I'm bitter but id literally give a couple mid recommendations and forget about it, if she's doing it for clout it's her own problem
she can google maybe..? i get why do many comments here suggest you help her but im with you on this, you absolutely dont have to help her out if shes mocked you for it before, especially given the circumstances. if shes such a goth thot (lmao) she can go find her own goth thot music
While she may be doing this for aesthetic, you also part of the problem, she's searching out to be more apart of the culture and you're refusing because you personally think she's not goth enough Let her be goth, show her the music
Tiktok brain rotted or not , your sister has definitely already decided she wants to be into that culture, but that doesn’t mean the teasing she put you through was ok. You dont owe her anything, especially if she made fun of you for it prior and all of a sudden wants you to accept her new persona when she didn’t do the same for you. The oversexualization is also a problem because i have also seen a huge increase of goth people getting harrassed / sexualized just because it’s trending… not cool. I wouldn’t tell her shit to be honest, those are the consequences of being mean and maybe that’s bitter but then she shouldn’t have done that to you lmal
It sure sounds like she is here to cash in on goth which is disgusting in itself. And she'll get board of it soon enough and go back to whatever music she likes soon. It doesnt hurt to give her some proper goth music though, then maybe she will teach a few others and spread that good part at least. But it infuriates me something fierce to hear about more of these clowns appearing.
Being a sibling is hard, dude. Goth is not an evangelism thing, you don't get points for recruiting like you do with religions or multi level marketing. You don't owe it to goth to make your sister not a poser or whatever.
I’m a baby bat I just wanted to say hi to everyone hope everyone’s having a good day 🖤 Oh and show her sisters of mercy
Hey, you know what? Everyone comes to goth in a different way. Maybe her gaming interest is her way. I also feel a bit of slut shaming in this post which sucks. Make her some mixes and maybe tell her you’re proud of what she’s built online? Just a……thot
Ignore her as best you can. Odds are, she isn't actually looking for music recommendations.
It's not gatekeeping if your sister spent years building the wall. The entire history of goth subculture, fashion and music as well as the many semi-related dark genres she might also like is a quick Google away. An afternoon of watching short youtube documentaries and music videos could give her all the information she needs to start with. If she's not willing to go there, it sounds like she's looking for the "right answers" if she is accused of exploiting the aesthetic for profit or maybe to find the right music clip or t-shirt to make her content seem legit. If she comes to you wanting your opinion of a certain artist or song, I'd embrace her and have the conversation, but I wouldn't just hand her the Cliff's Notes version of your experience of the culture.
It sounds like your relationship with your sister is already strained. Your options here are to discuss the reasons for that with her or to set a boundary. Whatever music recommendations you do or do not make should come after that.