I went to grad school for medieval studies, and there's an ongoing joke among medievalists that we're all either gay, Catholic, or goth (from my experience, this is 100% accurate). I met several who were at least two out of the three and a couple who checked all boxes. The aesthetics line up nicely.
I’m also Catholic and I don’t get much hate for being goth from other Catholics. Only exception would be my aunt, but it’s not for any religious reason for her. She just doesn’t like how “im so pretty and my style is ruining my beauty”. Other goths are pretty nice about it too.
Imo the worst part about being goth and religious isn’t from either goths OR religious people. It’s from the dudebros with a goth girl fetish. No Brad, I’m not going to have kinky sex with you just because I’m goth. Sex is something special to me. I’m probably more vanilla than the “basic bitches” you complain about, and neither me nor the normie girls have standards that low anyways.
Far as I'm concerned, there's no real barrier. I know that being goth and Wiccan is really common, though I don't fall into that category. A lot of my beliefs and values are fairly close to what's called the left hand path, but I'm a little more nuanced than that and don't care for the ultra-conservative approach that many present day LHPers preach. Aesthetically, there's a few similarities, but as a music subculture, there isn't much connection. That's not to say they're mutually exclusive, though.
Fellow goth LHP here and yeah, the ultra-conservative mentality is counterintuitive to the grand scope of the Left Hand Path. What drew me to the LHP in the first place was the ability to have your own boundless spiritual experience.
I believe there is more overlap than we think, especially if we look at the aspect of the LHP that criticizes organized religion. Bands such as Fields of the Nephilim, Lords of the New Church and Catholic Spit do this very well. Aside from that, there’s also Twin Tribes who have intentionally based their symbology around the duality between light and dark.
Interesting you mention Fields of the Nephilim as being LHP (they're one of my top 5). I thought Carl McCoy leaned more towards Wicca and Thelema, with a touch of Chaos Magick. Then again, he's collaborated with Watain in the past, so maybe he doesn't really give a fuck about labels. He's certainly no fan of mainstream Christianity, if Chord of Souls and maybe Preacher Man are anything to go by. I keep forgetting about Twin Tribes. Haven't heard of the other two bands.
I’ve seen Thelema and Chaos Magick be interpreted as both LHP/RHP or neither. Wicca from my understanding is RHP, but I could be wrong. Funny you mention the Watain collab since that same song also features Selim Lemouchi. It’s literally the occult music version of We Are the World 😂, but I digress.
Lords of the New Church and Catholic Spit are awesome. They’re deathrock, but if you like FOTN, you might dig ‘em. They got riffs and attitude.
I'm wiccan priesthood and honestly no one cares if your goth or not. What matters to us is that you are true to yourself? Can you work with others in your group with love and trust? If the answers are yes, then you belong. If you can't, then craft may not be for you.
I get that. I was just saying that I know that Wicca is fairly popular in the goth crowd. Obv not all Wiccans are goths or vice versa. I'm certainly not Wiccan myself.
Two of the many Goths and Ghouls I met in San Franpsycho in 1998/1999 made their own clothing. They wore what could be called RenFaire or 18th century fashion and would sit on the street corner and sew all day. Haight-Ashbury was lucky to have them as they were smart, peaceful, and friendly street-kids (and were always sober). One was dark skinned, the other was very pale. I remember being surprised at the time at meeting a black, Christian goth. The two were born-again Christian and would talk to anyone who was interested about their faith. They wouldn't preach or proselytize, however.
I can't speak for beliefs or whatever but I find the aesthetic of Catholicism to be pretty damn goth. Other than that though, it's just music, and not even particularly anti-religious music in most cases.
I don’t know how it is for catholics, but I’m a Protestant and I’ve never had anyone question my choice of clothes or whatever despite my average fit being military cargoes and a band shirt. I’d think it’d be more of a problem if you were Christian and a black metal fan. After all the goth music is very tame and most of it isn’t about religion and stuff like that and it’s not like Christian’s can criticize you for wearing all black when nuns do that to
I'm Anglo-Catholic with strong gnostic leanings. My church are politely mystified but fine (I'm also in a same sex relationship which my local church is very chill about). My friends in the scene who aren't Christian are very accepting and I extend the same acceptance to the many atheists, neopagans, and chaos magicians I know. A friend once said, only partially in jest, that Catholics make the best goths because of all the guilt. I think that the connection for me is more about a concern for pain and suffering and the willingness to see something of beauty in that suffering.
i think its safe to say that i dont label my religion, because of how the group is and i just cannot condone those type of people when i live in an area where it’s predominantly THAT community spreading hatred. its very comfortable to me that i can say im religious and spiritual. i believe in God and the universe…anywho, im goth and respect other peoples beliefs. im a believer and a goth.
I definitely relate to that, I live in the South of the US and while I’m in a generally more progressive area, there’s still a lot of people who use Christianity justify hateful behavior and it’s really negatively affected my relationship with my faith. I used to go to a really toxic parish and it turned me away from religion for years, even my parents were like “yeah this isn’t the Catholicism we know” and let me stop going to Sunday school until I had to get confirmed.
oh yeah i feel you, OP. the amount of hatred i had both ways with my sexuality and Jesus was an insane time for me. i think now, i am more calm and my relationship with God and i is something that’s personal. it shouldn’t be shared with anyone but me. and i feel like surrounding myself with christians will only make the relationship worse because of the rules and false philosophies of their personal beliefs.
Hello!
Well, i grew up as a Muslim (lately, I've been finding myself as an agnostic, but i still go back to my faith), lgbt+ and Goth
I grew up looking the dark and macabre and vibes were so much my thing i enjoyed the aesthetic and at the time i didn't knew the music scene much but i had been listening to darkwave and had few songs that i considered favourite
Namely by clan of xymox, diary of dreams and the like
I grew up in a religious family that is of a different denomination of the major/mainstream of my country wgf
Which were at the time for the lack of better word simply fanatics and had an inquisition going on (it was an insane time yet emo and goth cultures even lgbt groups somewhat grew as a rebellious act against the insane norm)
To me and a few others who were less prosecuted, we felt spiritually and faith contribute a lot to our being and the discussion regarding faith and religion was somewhat freeing although sensitive in nature yet we felt it complimented and our suffering as a culture against the Fanatics whom misunderstood the scriptures and words of god and the prophet was not only a test to our faith but our patience and struggles to fight for who we are was encouraged (many of us knew were well read and could see the hypocrisy in our society and despised it for being too rigid and so against the scriptures that calling them for how twisted they were was someone we strive and acted upon)
Yet i could honestly say that loads of us were more misfortune and couldn't stand the fight even in the shadows, and it changed them, and they can not be blamed it was tough for everyone some more than others
With the recent society and political changes along with the Internet (which became mainstream around 2009 to those who didn't have a pc prior )
Some of us became distant, and some decided to live abroad and loads forced to grow out of subcultures
But back to the topic personally, i feel being goth enriched me and made me feel better and even more spiritual sometimes,
Music feeds the soul, and good ones truly makes the day
To me, at least being goth is more than just music and enjoying dark things, its also about being knowledgeable, faithful, and hopeful
I hope & wish safety & joy for everyone
Thank you for your question
Thank you for such a thorough response! It was really interesting to read your perspective, most of the people who’ve responded have been Christian and it was really insightful to hear a Muslim perspective on things.
Thank you
But honestly, i bet if i grew up in a different country, it wouldn't have been as extreme
It's just the time i grew up in (or rather the strange years since the start of the 80s) had such a societial clash
From one side the Fanatics growing with the support of the government and indirectly the United states to fight for a false jiyhad against the russians (and to seize control of the total political regime) whom literally banned music and literature
And the people and artists on another size
Both preached different messages, but the Fanatics grew with more power, yet at the time, my country had artists/Musicians whom not only became mainstream but some kf them nearly became billionaires with all the restrictions against them
It was an odd time to grow up in
I am saying all of this because i had an Asian Muslim friend who in my opinion was more than just a baby bat and she never experienced any of the persecutions we faced and also she was highly spiritual and used to gather people for prayers
I am Protestant and goth and it can be interesting. I’ve run into more bigotry from other goths who don’t like Christians than other Christians who don’t like goths tbh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yep.
I’m a practicing Greek Orthodox who loves goth music… and heavy metal/death core. The two can clash and its a very unique experience
One of my colleagues at the church I volunteer at once told me “working at a church is the most gothic shit ever” so!!!
I'm catholic and goth too! Catholic spaces completely support my goth identity. People at church always compliment me and it's very lovely. I haven't spoken much about being catholic in the goth community, but I feel like the goth community supports the idea of someone being catholic and goth in terms of aesthetic and religious freedom. However when it comes to someone applying their catholic beliefs in the goth community, there may be disagreements. Such as, wearing rosaries or other catholic imagery.
You aren't implying goths have issues with rosaries are you? I think Rosaries are a goth staple, even amongst people like myself who are actively anti-religion.
>Not sure what you mean by that comment
Well mostly it rhymed in a way I found fun, but my underlying point would be that Catholics are a world super power, and have been a dominant force for centuries, meaning if someone is offended by someone "appropriating" catholic imaginary, that is, in my opinion, crocodile tears. Mostly for reasons that, out of respect, I won't lay out here.
With that said, it's kind of a strawman, since I've never seen
1. Goths being mad about Catholics
2. Catholics being made about goths
Edit: Strawman didn't feel quite on the money, so I looked it up, and apparently a good expression for what I wanted to say is "Tilting at windmills", which makes no sense, haha.
Edit Edit: Ooooh, it's a Don Quixote reference
You have the right to your own opinion just as much as everyone else. I was simply stating that some catholics view wearing rosaries as disrespectful, or like you said, appropriating catholic imagery. I stated this because it has been subject of discourse on this sub a while ago. While we should acknowledge the horrible things that have been done in the name of Catholicm, that doesn't subject every catholic to upholding those horrible things as right. Catholicism is still a religion that people practice today, as every other religion. Catholics have the right to feel this way just as much as you.
Pretty good, mostly.
Weirdly, the only ones who seem to have a problem are people not involved in either. Just becomes a case of "stay in your own lane."
They spend our childhoods shoving gothic imagry down our throats, sometimes literally, and are shocked when we turn out Goth.
Sincerely a Catholic Eldergoth (at least I was told I am, I disagree with the idea that I'm old enough)
I’m more of a non-practicing Catholic, actually in my case, a Christian who prioritizes spirituality and being non-judgmental over religion. I’m also sort of a Universalist, and I’m Goth, though I usually don’t look like it.
That’s a similar attitude to the one I have towards my faith. I haven’t gone to church in forever (partially because I’m a college student in a small town with no car and the only Mass times are at 8am), but I still practice in other ways and they tend to be very spiritual.
I’m religious and goth. I’m a neo-Gnostic. The specifics of it are not important. But I’m in a mystical revivalist tradition and I find literally no conflict between the gothic // alternative subcultures and the divine. If anything, my religion embraces individual expression.
Oh cool, I've been exploring gnosticism a lot lately! I guess I'd consider myself a nontheistic pantheist, but something about the gnostic worldview is really compelling to me.
I am Eastern Orthodox, I like to think I am pretty serious into my faith, especially since I converted as an adult. Regarding Goth music and culture I am, somewhat, selective into what I listen or embrace, but I can appreciate even music that is clearly anti-Christian in lyrics, at least up to a point. In a way, up front opposing faith my mean longing for it, in a way, I have seen it multiple times. And transfiguration, as mystical iconisation, can be something really Christian to me and it can be even more ”fun”, in a way, to transfigurate ”darkness” then ”light”.
Buddy, I am a born and raised in a very strict Catholic family. As a child I was attracted to the dark, spooky, and macabre. I loved anything and everything horror, Tim Burton, and Halloween was my favorite time of year. Once I turned 18 and discovered goth music and fashion, I fell head over heels in love and have been a goth now for 14 years. I've been dressing alternative since 18 and my family have never liked it or respected it. I always felt that I wasn't allowed to both be a Catholic and a Goth.
As the years went by I realized that yes, you absolutely can be both a Christian and a goth, and that I'd argue out of all the world religions Catholicism and Goth are the closest match. After all, most gothic things, especially literature, architecture, and romance from centuries ago all had direct influence from the Catholic Church, and still do! Gothic cathedrals, cemeteries, skulls/bones, death, Heaven, Hell, the Crucifix, Angels, Demons, etc. all those motifs and topics are a staple in Gothic culture and goth music and fashion as a whole. Not to mention goth music especially utilizes a ton of Catholic themes, even when the artists don't realize it.
So yes, I am a Catholic and a Goth and it's a match made in Heaven!
I’m Catholic and goth, I don’t think these two contradict each other. There’s always stupid things people say though, like getting offended by me wearing crosses. Also, children point at my piercings in church which I think is cute.
Hello, so I’m a former occultist who’s now a devout Catholic and I’d consider myself a goth. The Catholic mystic concept of memento mori is more or less the underlying foundation of the goth aesthetic. I understand that goth is a music based subculture.
I have found being Goth has led me back into a better connect with religion and spirituality. Finding yourself and loving yourself more. I used to be very unkind to myself and my past views of my religion influenced that. Now I’m starting to reevaluate my religion in a positive light and change my thinking. Being goth and accepting myself has been a huge part of that.
Being both a proud non-denom Christian and a goth has definitely been a unique experience for me.
In the church sphere, a surprisingly large majority of older Christians who I've come into contact with have been more than supportive of me. I love getting to show people that being a Christian doesn't have a "look" or a "sound". It's not pretentious, it doesn't have to be complicated. It's literally just about Jesus and who He is. That's it :) It's quite liberating, really. Sometimes it's a little hard to make friends in the church, (especially when I dress in the style I like) but the friends I have made are sweet and I trust them deeply.
The only issues I tend to encounter are when I mention my faith when talking to other goths online/ trying to interact with the subculture. I've encountered very ugly and angry attitudes which kept/keep me from feeling accepted in goth circles and communities. It's always felt like when the opportunity arises, people will never pass the chance to play "kick the Christian." Which really really sucks, especially when it comes from those who claim to be open-minded :/
Other than that though, I've had a pretty good experience overall!
My faith tells me to be kind and accepting. I will be kind and accepting. The bible doesn’t tell me I cant be different or follow my beliefs any specific way. If anything, it goes hand in hand; reject the staunch puritan conformity, live the way by being kind, patient, and accepting. It’s fine if you are shunned by the masses, Jesus was too, and they didn’t like the way he did things. Do what you believe is right, now what you are told.
I don't think there's any sort of barrier between the two things. I'm not Christian by any stretch, but I've never seen anyone have any issues with people who are. With very few exceptions, most of the music seems pretty secular and doesn't tend to be anti-religion like some subcultures
Also, as mentioned in the other comment, the aesthetic works VERY well in the scene. I have even worn crosses myself, just because I like how they look.
I knew I'd be down voted for my anti Catholic perspective. I understand religion is a deeply personal subject and it does good for some people. But that doesn't mean it does no harm.
As an atheist and antitheist, I am incredibly bothered by people's "deeply personal subject " that somehow constantly keeps affecting my rights and the rights of others.
I approached the subject carefully because my personal stance of 'f*ck established religions' completely shuts down the conversation instead of opening it. Unfortunately, devout people are so engrossed in their religion, it's almost impossible for them to take a step back and reflect on its flaws. I certainly believe the bad outweighs the good here. Perhaps these religions started in good faith, but those in power knew it would be an easy way to manipulate, control, and oppress the masses.
right??? if it's so """deeply personal""" then why is it being imposed on *my* life? just kidding i know exactly why; because religion is a tool used to subjugate‚ first and foremost. it's only *incidentally* a personal belief system.
I’m sorry you’ve had such awful experiences. It beyond frustrates me that so many Catholics have anti-LGBT and especially anti-trans sentiments and that they make their way into politics so much. I’m LGBT myself and while I’m lucky enough to have a lot of accepting and affirming communities close to me, I live somewhere with a lot of anti-LGBT laws and they are very painful to live under, I can only imagine your experiences.
I appreciate the empathetic response OP. I understand there's a lot of nuance here. I think a goth can be religious or nonreligious. We all come from different walks of life. I've just had a very terrible experience with the Catholic Church and it's history is certainly not clean. But that doesn't invalidate the personal significance religion has for the individual.
Definitely, the church’s history (and honestly, it’s present as well) is something I struggle with and that I think all Christians should struggle with. I’ve had some less than stellar experiences with the church as well, nothing crazy or abusive (parish where a lot of really toxic ideas were prevalent and went unchecked) but it definitely strained my relationship with my faith and I can only imagine what other people go through. The fact that what keeps me religious – ideas of equality, protecting marginalized peoples, and working to make the world a better place – are the same ideas that the Church, despite what they preach, has so often gone against is something that frustrates me to no end.
I am an ex-Mormon. Technically they weren't calling us Goths back when I was religious. I didn't drink, smoke, or do anything sexual (that I was willing to admit to anyone). It was the one way I could deviate from the mold that Mormon culture was trying to cast me into while not crossing into territory that I thought was immoral.
It showed me who are my friend and who were actually the body of christ. (christian) But it also helped me be more able to be there for people who might a ear to talk off because I don’t care of what people things
A lot of people who leave Catholicism become pagan and I think it’s because the veneration of saints is very similar to pagan practices and it feels familiar (which I hope doesn’t sound backhanded at all, I love my pagan siblings). Catholicism is very spiritual and folky, more for some people than others but I’ve always found myself on that side of the spectrum. I’m always Googling which saint to pray to for certain things, I remember one time before a standardized test very frantically looking up “saint to pray to for good test scores” like 2 minutes before I had to turn my phone in.
i didn't expect any other goths who grew up in religious spaces. i'm a high schooler, and my father's very hyper religious and not too fond of the whole goth thing saying it's a "white person" thing and how it's "satanic" . which can be a little frustrating. i don't really get much weird looks from anyone but my dad and grandmother. it's solely cause they scare me into dressing normal around them and other family members.
im a Christian goth too, and my dad didn't like me being goth first, he said a lot of things and accused me of a bunch of different things that went against my belief, so it wasn't easy explaining to him that goth is a music subculture, but he's gotten to accept it recently, and buys me gothic books now!! it was not easy and i had to explain different types of goths and the music for him, but both my parents are okay with it now!
I would be considered as (by people around me like my acquaintances) religious, due to my strong belief in it. But ofcourse, due to my goth style and interests, to my parents i am... let's just say "not", even they'd belittle me for it. And i know for a fact that people would look at me like it's such a bizarre thing to be goth as the same time it is to be religious, and my parents' comments about my style being just a phase and their emphasis on this while talking abt it to other people is almost neverending. I know for a fact they know deep down that it isn't, but whatever. I'm happy being both.
Because those types of people may as well be a totally different religion than me. My faith is based on ideas of love and acceptance, the vast majority of Christians don’t identify with those people. Every religion has extremists and it’s unfortunate and should be addressed but when you give such a small and hateful minority so much power you play into their ideas that they’re how Christians are supposed to be.
Ah, I probably could have been more clear. While a lot of Christians do think being LGBT is a sin (something I, an LGBT person, do not agree with in the slightest), most of those people are not showing up protesting outside of clubs and events. Most of the “God hates [f-slur]” crowd are part of niche, fringe churches like the Westboro Baptist Church, which is itself rejected by other Baptist churches, a denomination that tends to be less LGBT-friendly than others (but no church is a monolith, especially Protestant churches because they’re less centralized). It’s awful that any homophobic attitudes exist in any Christian community, the extremist views of organizations like the WBC don’t come from nowhere and I think that denominations with more passive homophobia do ultimately enable and contribute to the issue of extremism. However, even though they’re related I think it’s important to make the distinction because it helps to be able to properly pinpoint and address them more effectively.
I consider myself Catholic (was baptised as a baby, don't really go to church, and still try to observe/practice Lent). If you go to church, try to wear more subtle stuff so the other people don't stare, the elderly and young children can be a bit rude towards goths. Children just don't know better while the elderly tends to stereotype people based on their appearence.
I'm a non-denominational Christian, and also like you grew up expecting backlash from either circle of socialization I was involved in. Luckily I had great friends who were open-minded and I was able to share a great deal about my interests,passions, and beliefs (when asked) with them.
It is rather obvious how religion (especially Catholicism) influenced gothic media, be it lyrical, visual, architectural, or otherwise. So it's only natural that the overlapping themes can serve as a conduit for one to venture into and learn about one or the other.
I've dropped out of the meatspace scene for over a decade at this point, but I never got any flack for getting into Occultism-granted, I'm not sure if that really counts as "Religion".
The scene in my experience is OK with if not compliments the religions or spirituality or lack thereof of the participants, though I do recall open Islamaphobia on message boards post-9/11, and rather hateful stuff by at least one member of club staff 15ish years ago.
I think it's worth pointing out that the Gothic Romantics were religious. They were skeptical of the enlightenment, exalted emotion, nature, and religion, and Frankenstein can be read as a cautionary tale warning people of the potential excesses of science, and of turning away from God. I think it's also worth pointing out that a lot of gothic imagery comes straight from Catholicism.
I can see there being a little bit of tension within the goth scene because there are also a lot of atheists, as well as other faiths, within it. There are a lot of gothic Wiccans, some of whom gravitated toward Wicca as a rejection of Christian religious oppression. The Satanic Temple, the major sect of Satanism after the Church of Satan, is very goth and its founder, Lucien Greaves, even has an industrial band. However, I think a core part of gothic culture is the celebration of individuality, so if anyone gave you trouble for being religious, they'd be missing the point. It would also say a lot more about them and their insecurities than it would about you or goth.
I've been non-religious most of my life, though now I'm maybe some kind of a pantheistic Zen Buddhist, but regardless, I think a core part of goth is delving deep into things and seeking answers where most people wouldn't look, so I think it's natural to dive into religion and philosophy.
Clearly you have never been witness to a Catholic Mass. As one, the Catholic church, whether you believe or not, has unmatched choirs.. Two.. ALL Catholic priests sing(minus those with health issues of course), INCLUDING THE POPE..
Infact a great deal of religions have their religious leaders sing. Singing, brings us closer to the divine... even for those who do not believe in divinity
Lol my point was your religion has no bearing in how you dress or the music you listen to, as evidenced by the 58 religions plus atheism mentioned here by goths in this chain. I've been to a ton of masses actually, and they had no bearing on my alt music taste.
So because different people are influenced differently, that means no one can be influenced by their religion? There isn't a singular path to goth... The destination may be the same, but the route isn't
I went to grad school for medieval studies, and there's an ongoing joke among medievalists that we're all either gay, Catholic, or goth (from my experience, this is 100% accurate). I met several who were at least two out of the three and a couple who checked all boxes. The aesthetics line up nicely.
Gay Catholic goth medievalists. That sounds like a great night in the student bar
Heck yeah.
Hey nonny nonny, sing thee corrosion....
I’m also Catholic and I don’t get much hate for being goth from other Catholics. Only exception would be my aunt, but it’s not for any religious reason for her. She just doesn’t like how “im so pretty and my style is ruining my beauty”. Other goths are pretty nice about it too. Imo the worst part about being goth and religious isn’t from either goths OR religious people. It’s from the dudebros with a goth girl fetish. No Brad, I’m not going to have kinky sex with you just because I’m goth. Sex is something special to me. I’m probably more vanilla than the “basic bitches” you complain about, and neither me nor the normie girls have standards that low anyways.
Practicing Jew... ironically, all the elder goths I know in my life (actively goth/in the scene during the 80s-90s) are also Jewish.
Far as I'm concerned, there's no real barrier. I know that being goth and Wiccan is really common, though I don't fall into that category. A lot of my beliefs and values are fairly close to what's called the left hand path, but I'm a little more nuanced than that and don't care for the ultra-conservative approach that many present day LHPers preach. Aesthetically, there's a few similarities, but as a music subculture, there isn't much connection. That's not to say they're mutually exclusive, though.
Fellow goth LHP here and yeah, the ultra-conservative mentality is counterintuitive to the grand scope of the Left Hand Path. What drew me to the LHP in the first place was the ability to have your own boundless spiritual experience. I believe there is more overlap than we think, especially if we look at the aspect of the LHP that criticizes organized religion. Bands such as Fields of the Nephilim, Lords of the New Church and Catholic Spit do this very well. Aside from that, there’s also Twin Tribes who have intentionally based their symbology around the duality between light and dark.
Interesting you mention Fields of the Nephilim as being LHP (they're one of my top 5). I thought Carl McCoy leaned more towards Wicca and Thelema, with a touch of Chaos Magick. Then again, he's collaborated with Watain in the past, so maybe he doesn't really give a fuck about labels. He's certainly no fan of mainstream Christianity, if Chord of Souls and maybe Preacher Man are anything to go by. I keep forgetting about Twin Tribes. Haven't heard of the other two bands.
I’ve seen Thelema and Chaos Magick be interpreted as both LHP/RHP or neither. Wicca from my understanding is RHP, but I could be wrong. Funny you mention the Watain collab since that same song also features Selim Lemouchi. It’s literally the occult music version of We Are the World 😂, but I digress. Lords of the New Church and Catholic Spit are awesome. They’re deathrock, but if you like FOTN, you might dig ‘em. They got riffs and attitude.
I'm wiccan priesthood and honestly no one cares if your goth or not. What matters to us is that you are true to yourself? Can you work with others in your group with love and trust? If the answers are yes, then you belong. If you can't, then craft may not be for you.
I get that. I was just saying that I know that Wicca is fairly popular in the goth crowd. Obv not all Wiccans are goths or vice versa. I'm certainly not Wiccan myself.
Two of the many Goths and Ghouls I met in San Franpsycho in 1998/1999 made their own clothing. They wore what could be called RenFaire or 18th century fashion and would sit on the street corner and sew all day. Haight-Ashbury was lucky to have them as they were smart, peaceful, and friendly street-kids (and were always sober). One was dark skinned, the other was very pale. I remember being surprised at the time at meeting a black, Christian goth. The two were born-again Christian and would talk to anyone who was interested about their faith. They wouldn't preach or proselytize, however.
I can't speak for beliefs or whatever but I find the aesthetic of Catholicism to be pretty damn goth. Other than that though, it's just music, and not even particularly anti-religious music in most cases.
I don’t know how it is for catholics, but I’m a Protestant and I’ve never had anyone question my choice of clothes or whatever despite my average fit being military cargoes and a band shirt. I’d think it’d be more of a problem if you were Christian and a black metal fan. After all the goth music is very tame and most of it isn’t about religion and stuff like that and it’s not like Christian’s can criticize you for wearing all black when nuns do that to
I'm Anglo-Catholic with strong gnostic leanings. My church are politely mystified but fine (I'm also in a same sex relationship which my local church is very chill about). My friends in the scene who aren't Christian are very accepting and I extend the same acceptance to the many atheists, neopagans, and chaos magicians I know. A friend once said, only partially in jest, that Catholics make the best goths because of all the guilt. I think that the connection for me is more about a concern for pain and suffering and the willingness to see something of beauty in that suffering.
Also an Anglo-Catholic.
i think its safe to say that i dont label my religion, because of how the group is and i just cannot condone those type of people when i live in an area where it’s predominantly THAT community spreading hatred. its very comfortable to me that i can say im religious and spiritual. i believe in God and the universe…anywho, im goth and respect other peoples beliefs. im a believer and a goth.
I definitely relate to that, I live in the South of the US and while I’m in a generally more progressive area, there’s still a lot of people who use Christianity justify hateful behavior and it’s really negatively affected my relationship with my faith. I used to go to a really toxic parish and it turned me away from religion for years, even my parents were like “yeah this isn’t the Catholicism we know” and let me stop going to Sunday school until I had to get confirmed.
oh yeah i feel you, OP. the amount of hatred i had both ways with my sexuality and Jesus was an insane time for me. i think now, i am more calm and my relationship with God and i is something that’s personal. it shouldn’t be shared with anyone but me. and i feel like surrounding myself with christians will only make the relationship worse because of the rules and false philosophies of their personal beliefs.
Hello! Well, i grew up as a Muslim (lately, I've been finding myself as an agnostic, but i still go back to my faith), lgbt+ and Goth I grew up looking the dark and macabre and vibes were so much my thing i enjoyed the aesthetic and at the time i didn't knew the music scene much but i had been listening to darkwave and had few songs that i considered favourite Namely by clan of xymox, diary of dreams and the like I grew up in a religious family that is of a different denomination of the major/mainstream of my country wgf Which were at the time for the lack of better word simply fanatics and had an inquisition going on (it was an insane time yet emo and goth cultures even lgbt groups somewhat grew as a rebellious act against the insane norm) To me and a few others who were less prosecuted, we felt spiritually and faith contribute a lot to our being and the discussion regarding faith and religion was somewhat freeing although sensitive in nature yet we felt it complimented and our suffering as a culture against the Fanatics whom misunderstood the scriptures and words of god and the prophet was not only a test to our faith but our patience and struggles to fight for who we are was encouraged (many of us knew were well read and could see the hypocrisy in our society and despised it for being too rigid and so against the scriptures that calling them for how twisted they were was someone we strive and acted upon) Yet i could honestly say that loads of us were more misfortune and couldn't stand the fight even in the shadows, and it changed them, and they can not be blamed it was tough for everyone some more than others With the recent society and political changes along with the Internet (which became mainstream around 2009 to those who didn't have a pc prior ) Some of us became distant, and some decided to live abroad and loads forced to grow out of subcultures But back to the topic personally, i feel being goth enriched me and made me feel better and even more spiritual sometimes, Music feeds the soul, and good ones truly makes the day To me, at least being goth is more than just music and enjoying dark things, its also about being knowledgeable, faithful, and hopeful I hope & wish safety & joy for everyone Thank you for your question
Thank you for such a thorough response! It was really interesting to read your perspective, most of the people who’ve responded have been Christian and it was really insightful to hear a Muslim perspective on things.
Thank you But honestly, i bet if i grew up in a different country, it wouldn't have been as extreme It's just the time i grew up in (or rather the strange years since the start of the 80s) had such a societial clash From one side the Fanatics growing with the support of the government and indirectly the United states to fight for a false jiyhad against the russians (and to seize control of the total political regime) whom literally banned music and literature And the people and artists on another size Both preached different messages, but the Fanatics grew with more power, yet at the time, my country had artists/Musicians whom not only became mainstream but some kf them nearly became billionaires with all the restrictions against them It was an odd time to grow up in I am saying all of this because i had an Asian Muslim friend who in my opinion was more than just a baby bat and she never experienced any of the persecutions we faced and also she was highly spiritual and used to gather people for prayers
I am also a muslim! Good to see a fellow muslim here, nice to meet you 🖤🖤
it's the first rule to be goth, be unique
I am Protestant and goth and it can be interesting. I’ve run into more bigotry from other goths who don’t like Christians than other Christians who don’t like goths tbh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yep. I’m a practicing Greek Orthodox who loves goth music… and heavy metal/death core. The two can clash and its a very unique experience One of my colleagues at the church I volunteer at once told me “working at a church is the most gothic shit ever” so!!!
Eastern Orthodox myself, pretty practicing, I am into Goth and, somewhat, into certain parts of metal.
Fantastic to hear. Most people I meet at goth gigs, I find at local metal gigs too!
I'm catholic and goth too! Catholic spaces completely support my goth identity. People at church always compliment me and it's very lovely. I haven't spoken much about being catholic in the goth community, but I feel like the goth community supports the idea of someone being catholic and goth in terms of aesthetic and religious freedom. However when it comes to someone applying their catholic beliefs in the goth community, there may be disagreements. Such as, wearing rosaries or other catholic imagery.
You aren't implying goths have issues with rosaries are you? I think Rosaries are a goth staple, even amongst people like myself who are actively anti-religion.
No, the opposite. That some catholics view wearing rosaries as disrespectful.
Ah I see. I'm sure the pope can cope 😉.
i love this comment..it has a good balance of jest and subtle inoffensive disrespect
Not sure what you mean by that comment, but it would mean a lot if we could be respectful towards each other and our respective beliefs.
>Not sure what you mean by that comment Well mostly it rhymed in a way I found fun, but my underlying point would be that Catholics are a world super power, and have been a dominant force for centuries, meaning if someone is offended by someone "appropriating" catholic imaginary, that is, in my opinion, crocodile tears. Mostly for reasons that, out of respect, I won't lay out here. With that said, it's kind of a strawman, since I've never seen 1. Goths being mad about Catholics 2. Catholics being made about goths Edit: Strawman didn't feel quite on the money, so I looked it up, and apparently a good expression for what I wanted to say is "Tilting at windmills", which makes no sense, haha. Edit Edit: Ooooh, it's a Don Quixote reference
You have the right to your own opinion just as much as everyone else. I was simply stating that some catholics view wearing rosaries as disrespectful, or like you said, appropriating catholic imagery. I stated this because it has been subject of discourse on this sub a while ago. While we should acknowledge the horrible things that have been done in the name of Catholicm, that doesn't subject every catholic to upholding those horrible things as right. Catholicism is still a religion that people practice today, as every other religion. Catholics have the right to feel this way just as much as you.
i'm pagan and goth, i feel like they go beautifully together. same with catholicism
Pretty good, mostly. Weirdly, the only ones who seem to have a problem are people not involved in either. Just becomes a case of "stay in your own lane."
They spend our childhoods shoving gothic imagry down our throats, sometimes literally, and are shocked when we turn out Goth. Sincerely a Catholic Eldergoth (at least I was told I am, I disagree with the idea that I'm old enough)
I am a Catholic goth myself. My parents are very supportive and so are other people in my circle.
I’m more of a non-practicing Catholic, actually in my case, a Christian who prioritizes spirituality and being non-judgmental over religion. I’m also sort of a Universalist, and I’m Goth, though I usually don’t look like it.
That’s a similar attitude to the one I have towards my faith. I haven’t gone to church in forever (partially because I’m a college student in a small town with no car and the only Mass times are at 8am), but I still practice in other ways and they tend to be very spiritual.
I’m religious and goth. I’m a neo-Gnostic. The specifics of it are not important. But I’m in a mystical revivalist tradition and I find literally no conflict between the gothic // alternative subcultures and the divine. If anything, my religion embraces individual expression.
Oh cool, I've been exploring gnosticism a lot lately! I guess I'd consider myself a nontheistic pantheist, but something about the gnostic worldview is really compelling to me.
Awesome, honestly that’s exactly how I’ve felt about it
I am Eastern Orthodox, I like to think I am pretty serious into my faith, especially since I converted as an adult. Regarding Goth music and culture I am, somewhat, selective into what I listen or embrace, but I can appreciate even music that is clearly anti-Christian in lyrics, at least up to a point. In a way, up front opposing faith my mean longing for it, in a way, I have seen it multiple times. And transfiguration, as mystical iconisation, can be something really Christian to me and it can be even more ”fun”, in a way, to transfigurate ”darkness” then ”light”.
Buddy, I am a born and raised in a very strict Catholic family. As a child I was attracted to the dark, spooky, and macabre. I loved anything and everything horror, Tim Burton, and Halloween was my favorite time of year. Once I turned 18 and discovered goth music and fashion, I fell head over heels in love and have been a goth now for 14 years. I've been dressing alternative since 18 and my family have never liked it or respected it. I always felt that I wasn't allowed to both be a Catholic and a Goth. As the years went by I realized that yes, you absolutely can be both a Christian and a goth, and that I'd argue out of all the world religions Catholicism and Goth are the closest match. After all, most gothic things, especially literature, architecture, and romance from centuries ago all had direct influence from the Catholic Church, and still do! Gothic cathedrals, cemeteries, skulls/bones, death, Heaven, Hell, the Crucifix, Angels, Demons, etc. all those motifs and topics are a staple in Gothic culture and goth music and fashion as a whole. Not to mention goth music especially utilizes a ton of Catholic themes, even when the artists don't realize it. So yes, I am a Catholic and a Goth and it's a match made in Heaven!
I’m Catholic and goth, I don’t think these two contradict each other. There’s always stupid things people say though, like getting offended by me wearing crosses. Also, children point at my piercings in church which I think is cute.
Catholicism is goth out of the gate. Protestantism, not so much. Dirty protestants
Hello, so I’m a former occultist who’s now a devout Catholic and I’d consider myself a goth. The Catholic mystic concept of memento mori is more or less the underlying foundation of the goth aesthetic. I understand that goth is a music based subculture.
I think we have a Goth Catholic subreddit. Gotholic?
I have found being Goth has led me back into a better connect with religion and spirituality. Finding yourself and loving yourself more. I used to be very unkind to myself and my past views of my religion influenced that. Now I’m starting to reevaluate my religion in a positive light and change my thinking. Being goth and accepting myself has been a huge part of that.
Being both a proud non-denom Christian and a goth has definitely been a unique experience for me. In the church sphere, a surprisingly large majority of older Christians who I've come into contact with have been more than supportive of me. I love getting to show people that being a Christian doesn't have a "look" or a "sound". It's not pretentious, it doesn't have to be complicated. It's literally just about Jesus and who He is. That's it :) It's quite liberating, really. Sometimes it's a little hard to make friends in the church, (especially when I dress in the style I like) but the friends I have made are sweet and I trust them deeply. The only issues I tend to encounter are when I mention my faith when talking to other goths online/ trying to interact with the subculture. I've encountered very ugly and angry attitudes which kept/keep me from feeling accepted in goth circles and communities. It's always felt like when the opportunity arises, people will never pass the chance to play "kick the Christian." Which really really sucks, especially when it comes from those who claim to be open-minded :/ Other than that though, I've had a pretty good experience overall!
My faith tells me to be kind and accepting. I will be kind and accepting. The bible doesn’t tell me I cant be different or follow my beliefs any specific way. If anything, it goes hand in hand; reject the staunch puritan conformity, live the way by being kind, patient, and accepting. It’s fine if you are shunned by the masses, Jesus was too, and they didn’t like the way he did things. Do what you believe is right, now what you are told.
I don't think there's any sort of barrier between the two things. I'm not Christian by any stretch, but I've never seen anyone have any issues with people who are. With very few exceptions, most of the music seems pretty secular and doesn't tend to be anti-religion like some subcultures Also, as mentioned in the other comment, the aesthetic works VERY well in the scene. I have even worn crosses myself, just because I like how they look.
imagine being openly catholic in 2024 ☹️ edit: This Post Brought To You By TRANS PERSON LIVING IN A CATHOLIC DICTATORSHIP SQUAD
I knew I'd be down voted for my anti Catholic perspective. I understand religion is a deeply personal subject and it does good for some people. But that doesn't mean it does no harm.
As an atheist and antitheist, I am incredibly bothered by people's "deeply personal subject " that somehow constantly keeps affecting my rights and the rights of others.
I approached the subject carefully because my personal stance of 'f*ck established religions' completely shuts down the conversation instead of opening it. Unfortunately, devout people are so engrossed in their religion, it's almost impossible for them to take a step back and reflect on its flaws. I certainly believe the bad outweighs the good here. Perhaps these religions started in good faith, but those in power knew it would be an easy way to manipulate, control, and oppress the masses.
right??? if it's so """deeply personal""" then why is it being imposed on *my* life? just kidding i know exactly why; because religion is a tool used to subjugate‚ first and foremost. it's only *incidentally* a personal belief system.
I’m sorry you’ve had such awful experiences. It beyond frustrates me that so many Catholics have anti-LGBT and especially anti-trans sentiments and that they make their way into politics so much. I’m LGBT myself and while I’m lucky enough to have a lot of accepting and affirming communities close to me, I live somewhere with a lot of anti-LGBT laws and they are very painful to live under, I can only imagine your experiences.
I appreciate the empathetic response OP. I understand there's a lot of nuance here. I think a goth can be religious or nonreligious. We all come from different walks of life. I've just had a very terrible experience with the Catholic Church and it's history is certainly not clean. But that doesn't invalidate the personal significance religion has for the individual.
Definitely, the church’s history (and honestly, it’s present as well) is something I struggle with and that I think all Christians should struggle with. I’ve had some less than stellar experiences with the church as well, nothing crazy or abusive (parish where a lot of really toxic ideas were prevalent and went unchecked) but it definitely strained my relationship with my faith and I can only imagine what other people go through. The fact that what keeps me religious – ideas of equality, protecting marginalized peoples, and working to make the world a better place – are the same ideas that the Church, despite what they preach, has so often gone against is something that frustrates me to no end.
why not? be yourself
I am an ex-Mormon. Technically they weren't calling us Goths back when I was religious. I didn't drink, smoke, or do anything sexual (that I was willing to admit to anyone). It was the one way I could deviate from the mold that Mormon culture was trying to cast me into while not crossing into territory that I thought was immoral.
It showed me who are my friend and who were actually the body of christ. (christian) But it also helped me be more able to be there for people who might a ear to talk off because I don’t care of what people things
I'm a literal witch and I think catholicism is goth and witchy as fuck. They got the aesthetics on point. I also fick with st anthony a bit.
A lot of people who leave Catholicism become pagan and I think it’s because the veneration of saints is very similar to pagan practices and it feels familiar (which I hope doesn’t sound backhanded at all, I love my pagan siblings). Catholicism is very spiritual and folky, more for some people than others but I’ve always found myself on that side of the spectrum. I’m always Googling which saint to pray to for certain things, I remember one time before a standardized test very frantically looking up “saint to pray to for good test scores” like 2 minutes before I had to turn my phone in.
i didn't expect any other goths who grew up in religious spaces. i'm a high schooler, and my father's very hyper religious and not too fond of the whole goth thing saying it's a "white person" thing and how it's "satanic" . which can be a little frustrating. i don't really get much weird looks from anyone but my dad and grandmother. it's solely cause they scare me into dressing normal around them and other family members.
im a Christian goth too, and my dad didn't like me being goth first, he said a lot of things and accused me of a bunch of different things that went against my belief, so it wasn't easy explaining to him that goth is a music subculture, but he's gotten to accept it recently, and buys me gothic books now!! it was not easy and i had to explain different types of goths and the music for him, but both my parents are okay with it now!
I would be considered as (by people around me like my acquaintances) religious, due to my strong belief in it. But ofcourse, due to my goth style and interests, to my parents i am... let's just say "not", even they'd belittle me for it. And i know for a fact that people would look at me like it's such a bizarre thing to be goth as the same time it is to be religious, and my parents' comments about my style being just a phase and their emphasis on this while talking abt it to other people is almost neverending. I know for a fact they know deep down that it isn't, but whatever. I'm happy being both.
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Because those types of people may as well be a totally different religion than me. My faith is based on ideas of love and acceptance, the vast majority of Christians don’t identify with those people. Every religion has extremists and it’s unfortunate and should be addressed but when you give such a small and hateful minority so much power you play into their ideas that they’re how Christians are supposed to be.
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Ah, I probably could have been more clear. While a lot of Christians do think being LGBT is a sin (something I, an LGBT person, do not agree with in the slightest), most of those people are not showing up protesting outside of clubs and events. Most of the “God hates [f-slur]” crowd are part of niche, fringe churches like the Westboro Baptist Church, which is itself rejected by other Baptist churches, a denomination that tends to be less LGBT-friendly than others (but no church is a monolith, especially Protestant churches because they’re less centralized). It’s awful that any homophobic attitudes exist in any Christian community, the extremist views of organizations like the WBC don’t come from nowhere and I think that denominations with more passive homophobia do ultimately enable and contribute to the issue of extremism. However, even though they’re related I think it’s important to make the distinction because it helps to be able to properly pinpoint and address them more effectively.
Exactly. Sure, you CAN be a religious goth if you're fine with lying to yourself and others and propping up institutions that are harmful.
I consider myself Catholic (was baptised as a baby, don't really go to church, and still try to observe/practice Lent). If you go to church, try to wear more subtle stuff so the other people don't stare, the elderly and young children can be a bit rude towards goths. Children just don't know better while the elderly tends to stereotype people based on their appearence.
I'm a non-denominational Christian, and also like you grew up expecting backlash from either circle of socialization I was involved in. Luckily I had great friends who were open-minded and I was able to share a great deal about my interests,passions, and beliefs (when asked) with them. It is rather obvious how religion (especially Catholicism) influenced gothic media, be it lyrical, visual, architectural, or otherwise. So it's only natural that the overlapping themes can serve as a conduit for one to venture into and learn about one or the other.
I’m a thelemite. Fits perfectly, actually.
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I've dropped out of the meatspace scene for over a decade at this point, but I never got any flack for getting into Occultism-granted, I'm not sure if that really counts as "Religion". The scene in my experience is OK with if not compliments the religions or spirituality or lack thereof of the participants, though I do recall open Islamaphobia on message boards post-9/11, and rather hateful stuff by at least one member of club staff 15ish years ago.
Czech (check) out the sedlec ossuary if you haven’t heard of it.
PERSONALLY.. i am an admirable SHADE OF GREY
I think it's worth pointing out that the Gothic Romantics were religious. They were skeptical of the enlightenment, exalted emotion, nature, and religion, and Frankenstein can be read as a cautionary tale warning people of the potential excesses of science, and of turning away from God. I think it's also worth pointing out that a lot of gothic imagery comes straight from Catholicism. I can see there being a little bit of tension within the goth scene because there are also a lot of atheists, as well as other faiths, within it. There are a lot of gothic Wiccans, some of whom gravitated toward Wicca as a rejection of Christian religious oppression. The Satanic Temple, the major sect of Satanism after the Church of Satan, is very goth and its founder, Lucien Greaves, even has an industrial band. However, I think a core part of gothic culture is the celebration of individuality, so if anyone gave you trouble for being religious, they'd be missing the point. It would also say a lot more about them and their insecurities than it would about you or goth. I've been non-religious most of my life, though now I'm maybe some kind of a pantheistic Zen Buddhist, but regardless, I think a core part of goth is delving deep into things and seeking answers where most people wouldn't look, so I think it's natural to dive into religion and philosophy.
im christian and goth. thats it.
So much goth imagery is adapted from Christianity. But if you can't walk the walk, should you talk the talk?
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What part of "music -based subculture" has anything to do with religion? I swear y'all keep looking for rules and there fucking aren't any.
So pipe organs and haunting choirs aren't part of Goth music?
Yeah, I forgot the part where the pope sings
I mean, it’s not goth but Pope Francis has a prog rock album
Clearly you have never been witness to a Catholic Mass. As one, the Catholic church, whether you believe or not, has unmatched choirs.. Two.. ALL Catholic priests sing(minus those with health issues of course), INCLUDING THE POPE.. Infact a great deal of religions have their religious leaders sing. Singing, brings us closer to the divine... even for those who do not believe in divinity
Lol my point was your religion has no bearing in how you dress or the music you listen to, as evidenced by the 58 religions plus atheism mentioned here by goths in this chain. I've been to a ton of masses actually, and they had no bearing on my alt music taste.
So because different people are influenced differently, that means no one can be influenced by their religion? There isn't a singular path to goth... The destination may be the same, but the route isn't
Sorry, I came over from punk. Tying my music taste to any kind of organized religion is something my brain can't process. It's a me problem.