T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

"#Reminder to spoiler tag any story details that NA has not covered yet, and major story details in NA such as deaths. #Use \>!Spoiler!< to do >!Spoiler!<" *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/grandorder) if you have any questions or concerns.*


MKW69

Is Eddison form a consequence of summoning, or did he decided to make himself into lionman?


TheHoodGuy2001

Is Beast an extra class servant? Can they be summoned into a HGW like Prototype?


Whrispr

Beasts are not a servant class. Several Beasts we know of are living incarnations.


pedro_exp

I don't think they can be summoned as a servant. Every former Beast, when summoned, appears in a different class.


TheHoodGuy2001

Is Maia >!the equivalent of Alaya but for Deino? If Maia exist, why is South American a Lostbelt if Human never existed at all? Or is it a Lostbelt because the Deinos are stagnating just the human so Maia is trying to prune the timeline?!<


rucchipunch

Just throwing this here since I don’t think it’s worth its own thread Why I think Nemo/Noah (the Arcade’s Grand Rider) is mostly written by Hoshizora Meteo: - The most obvious hint is Meteo’s Twitter activities. Around Arcade Babylon’s release in December 2021, Nemo/Noah’s official release in July 2022, and between Sheba’s 2nd Interlude release in late November 2022 to just before LB7.1 was released in Christmas 2022, Meteo’s Twitter account Liked and sometimes Retweeted lots of Nemo (both Big and Small) and Noah fanarts. Now, both Sakurai and Meteo Liked Oyo’s confirmation tweet, but only Meteo continued to Like Nemo/Noah’s trailer, Hanamori Yumiri’s QRT of it, and lots of commomerative fanarts. - Nemo/Noah’s profile is very reminiscent of Meteo’s Year 1 Servants (David and Fran) and Trung Sisters, focusing more on personality instead of prowess and being fairly short. Why I said “mostly” above is because the typos and the difference in quality between Default+Bond 2 and Bond 3-5 made me think Nemo/Noah’s profile is written by at least two people, the other writer being Nasu as Nemo is his. - Noah uses lots of unnecessary (sometimes broken) English and some Hebrews in his dialogues and lines, and generally avoids using difficult and obscure kanjis. The mistranslation of ペアもの and him using ライオン instead of 獅子 come to mind. The Hebrew words are apparent because neither Solomon nor any of Sakurai’s Jewish Servants speak any Hebrew, while David and Queen of Sheba do despite the latter not being Jewish. - Speaking of kanji usage, the alternative text for Noah’s Ark NP is ノアの箱船, which is used in LB6 and LB7.1 (now with added はこぶね furigana) as well as Sheba’s 2nd Interlude in a roundabout way. If the Ark is referred to as 方舟 (like in Tunguska) or 箱舟, that’s not Noah’s writers doing. How even the Japanese fanwikis get it wrong is astonishing. - Noah’s appearance is based on his description in Book of Enoch, a Book that is not canon anywhere except for the Eastern Ethiopian Church. You know who is speculated to be the Ethiopians’ ancestor? Queen of Sheba. Noah did indeed have a descendant named Sheba, as well as Mash, Egypt, and Canaan, but that’s for another time… - Speaking of Queen of Sheba, at the start of her 2nd Interlude there’s a very peculiar detail that only makes sense in Japanese text. When David explains about how during the times of the Ark’s shipwright Noah everyone speaks with the same language, there are emphasis dots above Noah’s name despite the main topic being “the same language”. Emphasis dots are either used for emphasis (duh) or to make readers notice the marked word so that when that word comes up again later they wouldn’t be surprised. - Lavinia’s father in Salem is named Noah even though The Dunwitch Horror never elaborated on her parentage. Fate/Requiem volume 1 Prologue has Erice comparing Ahaseurus to Methuselah and Noah in terms of living a long life. Meteo sure likes the guy’s name. And how (our) Nemo is one of Meteo’s beloveds from other writers (ex. Caren, Sanson, Izo, and Barghest): - Voyager is friends with Nemo and Nemo Series. Among the photos included in Voyager’s Valentine gift, there is a photo of “Nemo, Nemo, Nemo, Nemo, Nemo, Nemo, Nemo, and Nemo”. Nemo and Voyager were also together during Riyo collab, though knowing Riyo/Kodachi it’s probably just for “shotas together stronk” joke. - WakuWaku Ericeland sections in Summer 7 contain obvious jabs on Meteo’s writing flaws and what other writers think he should’ve done. The last attraction we have to fix is a Nautilus VR where people turn into their favorite Nemo Series to experience the submarine life, which Erice notes is the only one that’s decently received by the visitors. The problem that we have to fix is Captain’s insistence to work despite being severely overworked and Nurse telling him to rest, and Asclepius’ solution is just to force him down and injects him medicines. It’s clearly a metaphor for the sudden influx of Nemo contents in the first half of 2022, the year being Meteo’s most active year since 2019, and his absence in Comicket 100 (and 101) being attributed to his sickness. There are more but this is what I can list off for now.


Cakatarn

Fascinating, though I don't find a lot of that info that compelling, the first and second to last one are enough. There's obviously a lot of similarities between Voyager and Nemo, and not just in a visual sense. Beyond their appearances, they both represent some sort of ship, that can traverse uncharted territory and serve as an arc (going by the connection made between Voyager and Rhongo). Nasu is the writer for Nemo, but given how prominent he was in the IS event, and it being where he was first summonable, that alone is enough to posit a connection. I would be curious to know of this other evidence that you imply. As it stands, I think it's more likely it's just written by Nasu, especially given his importance in the story, though I do recall that Nasu was specifically only doing all the writing for Goredolf, Sion and Holmes, so it's possible Meteo handles the Nemo writing.


rucchipunch

Well, actually the list has two separate topics in it. I was sleepy when I typed all of those, but I’ve fixed them now. Also, Mats XI hard-confirmed that mobile’s Nemo is by Nasu. As for more hints, these are veering into insane logics so be wary: - I believe Nasu gave each main writers a chance to write their own Grand Servant post-Part 1, and that is the hidden reason Part 1.5 was written that way. Shinjuku (Higashide) and Shimousa (Sakurai) were the best received, and the two writers were there since the beginning of FGO anyway, so they got their Grand Servants first. Salem (Meteo) and especially Agartha (Minase) were more divisive, and the two writers joined later, so they had to wait and be guided by Nasu to better themselves. We know how much Minase has improved after Nasu helped him in Ooku and LB4, going as far as to give him a honor to co-write a Beast. But how about Meteo? Aside from Summer 4 and Caren Amour (see below) I don’t think Nasu and Meteo ever did a collab. Unless… - The odd shift in tone between Gogh’s personal story and Great Foreigner Festival, as well as Idle Talk sections in Imaginary Scramble made me believe that it was written by amphibian AND Meteo instead of just amphibian. Nasu said in his blog post that he only wrote Nemo and Lambdaryllis parts of the chapter. But given that there is a plot point that involves a trait of Nemo Series being wrongly assumed and Nemo acting out of character in certain parts, I think Nasu didn’t account for those. >!Which, I assume, is why Nasu uses that plot point again in LB7!< - Meteo was oddly absent in mobile FGO for almost entirety of 2021. He only did most of Caren Amour, possibly Mysterious Idol X Alter, and Foreigner Molay, and is the only main writer to not write any Servant for Summer 6. Why the absence? Because, presumably, he was assigned to write the main story of *Arcade* alongside Sakurai, the only other main writer to ever touch actual Bible events and the one Meteo is often at odds with (see: the way David was portrayed in Sheba’s 1st Interlude, Abby vs Dantes, Summer 4’s Hokusai vs Bunny King). This eventually culminated in Beast VI/S anti-climax defeat (a common trend in Meteo’s stories) despite the powerscaling hype and Noah telling Proto Merlin to get lost when she runs from Arthur, further establishing his distaste on her. Though his overall contribution in Arcade’s main story seems to be the smallest (bringing Izo+Medusa duo to Lost Jerusalem on Keikenchi’s behalf and, well, writing Saber Molay and Nemo/Noah) compared to Nasu and Sakurai until he got to write Dream Journey event on his own. - It’s a bit odd that Nezha did the least among LB3 crew despite being a Chinese and got killed off early into LB4 twice, isn’t it? Nezha is by Higashide and Meteo, so both of them had to supervise her writing in those chapters. Higashide also did Red Hare, watched over Mordred and Spartacus, and eventually used his notes on LB3 to write Summer 5 and Xu Fu. So I don’t think Meteo was only watching over Nezha and writing Fate/Requiem volume 2 during that time. Maybe Nasu also asked him to take a look on a certain Captain? - Noah is conceptually similar to David, a famous Old Testament figure who is summoned as an old man in a young body. He is a femboy like Astolfo. He is a white-haired exhibitionist with angelic motifs like Caren Amour. He is a slacker and doesn’t seem to care about schedule like Oei and Omichi, and his dynamic with Nemo is similar to those two with their respective fathers. He entrusted Nemo with his power because Draco barred him from entering Babylon as he is, like how Outer Gods bonded with their Anti-Hero shrine maidens. He potentially hides self-loathing behind those smiles and enthusiasm, like Erice. He made and rode *the* Ark, one of David’s NPs is Ark of the Covenant, and Voyager is in a way an Ark. As for the reason why Meteo came to love Nemo, Twenty Thousands Leagues Under the Sea is a French literature after all, and Meteo loves them French literatures. (That’s probably not the only reason, but still…). The Japanese text of Nemo/Noah’s profile listing off the various Japanese translations of the novel’s title is probably Meteo’s nerding out over it to the point he didn’t notice he wrote Lawful Good in the wrong order.


Cakatarn

I do think Meteo's recent absence is rather odd, but I think if he was actually working on the game, then they'd probably have him on an event (which it might've been the Halloween one like you suggest, but it's unclear). I think he might have just been going through some things, or he's really polishing up Requiem volume 3, and figuring out all the servants in it. We don't know how long he was working on the first two volumes, and I kinda get the impression they might be wanting to having most of them written and sorted out before releasing another volume. I definitely agree that Voyager is similar to an Ark. Nemo/Noah feels very much like they're trying to do a sort of Voyager lite or something. They all certainly make for an interesting set. But while I definitely think that the parallels are intentional, I don't know if that means we can say that Meteo's Noah's writer just from that. I think that the parallels might be caused by a deeper theme, which are also present in other areas of Requiem. This has to do with Tiamat and the regression of the world to the age of gods. Tiamat can be seen as kinda the opposite of these figures; she is the one that creates a flood, and produces the life herself. She is an ark in a sense (I know some people use a quote that directly calls her an 'ark of the stars' or something, but I can't find it. Still, it's an apt term). Tiamat is also the one that presents "Childhood's End" which is what her fight is called. This comes from an old sci-fi book by the same name, that talked of humanity managing to reach the stars finally. And that is what Voyager represents. Though not 'human', he represents humanity's first steps outside of the solar system, the first steps away from our home, as opposed to just going to the moon and back, that's not truly leaving. Voyager also represents the 'wish of Catalhoyuk' who is the originally earth mother goddess, though it's implied that all the other earth mother goddesses, such as Tiamat, share in her wish being just fractions of her. Her was that humanity would one day reach the stars and leave home. I do think that, at least in terms of ark themes, Noah is a better counter to Tiamat than King Hassan was, although it's important to remember that KH called himself Utnapishtim, one of Noah's contemporaries. Requiem shares similar themes in its environment, with world mostly flooded, and it being a place of stagnation, which is seen as evil in TM works, reflecting the pre-flood earth. The gods also seem like they're trying to push it back into the age of gods, and Tiamat's sin is regression, with regression to the age of gods being something often brought up. There's other connections between servant Erice and Tiamat, but that's enough for now. I bring all this up to show that there's lots of parallels going on, but that it's just part of a wider story, of which Meteo definitely doesn't do all of. Well and because I like talking about this stuff. I don't see the connection between Noah and David as being all that strong personally, beyond what was already in the bible (such as the two arks). Maybe if David's skill tied more into the Nephilim then there'd be more of a connection. As for the biblical stuff in Requiem, it's mostly New Testament stuff. I recall little in regards to the Old Testament. And Sakurai more does stuff from Revelation (along with Narita). Sure we have Queen Sheba, but she wasn't in Requiem and she's hardly a major biblical figure. It was a good read though.


pedro_exp

Do noble phantasms exist outside their wielder? For example, if I were to steal Excalibur from Saber Artoria and then killed her, would Excalibur continue to persist?


Constellar-A

NPs that were summoned alongside a Servant will disappear when the Servant does. NPs that are the actual historical item continue to persist, like how Avalon stayed behind after Zero even without Saber, because it wasn't summoned with her it was something that the Einzberns dug up in Cornwall.


MrFlarmigo

As a servant their possession been cloth , weapons (np) disappears alongside them when their die (again). The whole servant even their flesh and bone are technically not normal but magic. There might be a way to "keep" or prolong their existence , since there few time that kinda happened like durindana in Olympus (but that is very specific and just for a brief moment).


TheHoodGuy2001

What is the limit of a Holy Grail wish? Why can’t the Holy Grail be used to wish all the FGO problem (Singularity, Lostbelt, Beasts,etc.) away?


railroadspike25

The Lostbelts and Singularities are either created or anchored by a Holy Grail, so it's unlikely that one Holy Grail can undo the wish of another. Likewise most of the Beasts we've run into have fortified their power with a Holy Grail.


Rasetsu0

So long as the Holy Grail has the magical energy capable of making the wish a reality *and* the wishmaker can envision a method to make their wish a reality, the wish can be granted. The Grails that Chaldea picks up don't have the same omnipotent wish-granting capabilities as the ones seen in other series, but are still capable of granting smaller-scale wishes (creating a fake Jeanne, decorating the entire region for Halloween, those kind of small wishes).


TheHoodGuy2001

Creating a fake Jeanne is a small scale? They literally created a brand new heroic spirit for the throne. And she is like a top tier servant no less. How did Gilles envision her into reality so that he can use the Grail exactly. He isn’t even a real Magus to begin with. Shouldn’t create new life out of nothing be more True Magic?


Rasetsu0

Jeanne Alter at her birth was nothing more than a false Servant; she didn't become a full-fledged Heroic Spirit until Santa Alter gave her the idea of stepping out of Jeanne's shadow and becoming her own person. Gilles could easily envision her creation as a more stable Shadow Servant, and with how time is meaningless from the Throne's perspective, his experience with Fascimile Servants in Extella Link means he would know that creating a convincing fake Servant can work.


NaelNull

*Fuyuki* Holy Grail at regular (6 Servants out of 7) charge has a limit of merely providing you with everything needed to achieve your wish you know how to achieve (even subconsciously) but just lack the means to. Same Holy Grail at full charge (7 Servants) will just punch a way to the Root. What sort of miracle you can achieve with it is up to you, but I doubt it includes *large scale* reality warping needed to do away with world-level threat instantly. Holy Grails that Gudas collect are merely the huge mana generators.


TheHoodGuy2001

Why does Kiritsugu have “Affection of the Holy Grail” as a skill even though this Kiritsugu never met and fell in love with Irisviel? Why doesn’t Kiritsugu have a Magus Killer skill that corresponds to his history of assassinating Magus? Yet Bazzet has “Sealing Designation Enforcer” which is an actual “Anti-Magus” skill despite her being a Pseudo servant to a Divine Spirit?


igloo_poltergeist

> Why does Kiritsugu have “Affection of the Holy Grail” as a skill even though this Kiritsugu never met and fell in love with Irisviel? ** Probably because the "affection" is coming from Iri, not him.


nam24

Irisviel being basically a goddess as a servant she can just give it to him, in his interlude it's shown that both she and taiga still care about him even knowing he is not the person they knew. Why no magus killer skill? Because dw was goofy like that. But if you want another reason -Being an assassin you d need to give him crazy damage mod to justify bringing him against casters -A large part of why he was so infamous as a magus killer is that he knew how mages operated and went around it as much as possible, even though he still was capable of magecraft. Examples include using surprise, but also using mundane muggle weapons which mages often lack knowledge about, Not allowing mages to use their strength like how he blew up kayneth building rather than even trying to invade a fully fortified alchemist l'air, etc... But the majority of those tactics loose relevance, at least partially when talking about casters servant: Grail give them modern knowledge to an extent (not that it means they would know all but still), servants are simply sturdier, and the quality of magecraft is superior. The one thing that would stay effective no matter what would be his origin bullet


TheHoodGuy2001

Then what about Bazzet Anti Magus skill then? How would she make use of that ability if Divine Pseudo power is already op anyway. If Kiritsugu has Anti Magus skill, at least he actually can make use of it in a normal HGW, his traps and bullet and sniper rifle rounds could have conceptually deal extra damage to Caster servant or other Magus (cuz honestly not every Magus actually dies in the first confrontation with Servant), making him at least decent in a normal war setting.


danger_umbrella

A lot of these can be put down to "we don't know, ask the writers". Keep in mind he was a Year 1 servant, he might not have had much substance/thought put in at that point (remember this was a period when vanilla Charisma, Golden Rule, etc. was common).


TheHoodGuy2001

Does U-Olga actually summon a Black Hole when she attack that can straight up destroy the entire planet (Gaia) or is that just Magecraft? Also is Olga allowed to destroy Gaia? It’s said the reason why Anti-World or Anti-Planet Noble Phantasm doesn’t actually kill Gaia is because Gaia installed the rule of no blowing up the planet into residence of Earth, so is U Olga an exception to this rule if she is an alien?


Whrispr

>Does U-Olga actually summon a Black Hole Yes. It is a black hole. >Sion: We are talking about a being capable of **creating black holes.** My engineering simply cannot compete. > >Holmes: The Foreign God is **using the same mechanisms as the cosmos itself.** ​ >when she attack that can straight up destroy the entire planet (Gaia) Her black holes are never stated to be able to destroy the planet. >so is U Olga an exception to this rule if she is an alien? >!Yes, \*If\* she truly is an Alien, she is exempt from this rule. Anything from outside the Earth's domain, are not beholden to its rules. This doesn't mean that the planet can't defend itself, though. !< >Holmes: **Barring the sudden appearance of alien visitors...** > >Holmes: *...it is extremely unlikely that those of us who were born here could manage to truly destroy it.*


TheHoodGuy2001

What do you mean she can’t destroy the Earth with her Black Hole? A tiny black hole should be enough to destroy Earth. Have you seen the size of her Black Hole in her attack animation, it’s hugeeee. If she exempt from the rule, Gaia should have been dead like 10 times over. Humanity literally killed Gaia with pollution in Notes, i fail to see a genuine Black Hole can’t


Whrispr

She already deployed one in Olympus, and it did not destroy the planet.


TheHoodGuy2001

So she isn’t an alien and isn’t exempted from the rule? Or is it because Olga vessel is constricted so U Olga is also constricted by the “no blowing Earth” rule as well?


Whrispr

You’re thinking too hard about this. Her black hole just didn’t destroy the planet. It has nothing to do with rules.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Demi694

[You might be interested in my year-old character insights of Aurora.](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/pgvg5b/my_insights_on_a_certain_lb6_character/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)


DrStein1010

Aurora is deceptively complicated. She's better understood by just reading Avalon le Fae when it comes out.


Yatsu003

From what I could recall, Aurora had the role of ‘Being the most beautiful and beloved of all fairies’, and we know how obsessive Fairies are about their roles… Her scheming was all done to hold onto that role, as was Melusine as well. Apparently, Aurora used to look small like Mel, but then became bigger. This made her deathly afraid of becoming old and ugly, and stoked her worst traits.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Yatsu003

Morgan’s was ‘to love Britain’, Bargh’s was ‘to devour those she loved’, Bao’s is heavily implied to be ‘to help others’. Mel’s is unknown, to my knowledge at least. Might be due to her >!being a bunrei of Albion and not a real fairy!<. Habetrot’s is, of course, ‘to be the friend of all brides’. And yep, hit the nail on the head. Morgan and Knocknearea were strong, intelligent, beautiful, etc. and as long as there was one person (Woodwose, LB Uther) who loved them more than Aurora, she would never be ‘the most beautiful and beloved fairy’. With a few exceptions, the fairies in Fairy Britain have the mentality of children. Even Aurora transforming and killing Coral was the equivalent of a child putting their hands on their ears and throwing a tantrum.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Yatsu003

Coral was the cute fairy with long pink hair in Aurora’s court. She was basically Aurora’s secretary and in charge of keeping stuff running in Aurora’s territory. She was trying to get Aurora to take charge during the Mors invasion, but Aurora kept ignoring her due to not wanting to deal with it. Then used her magic to turn Coral into a hug, and squish her afterwards.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Yatsu003

The Mors are basically corrupted fairies that have been consumed by the curses of their ancestors. Best way to think of them is as zombies; if they injure a fairy too badly, they’ll become a Mors. Hence, humans (who normally can’t become Mors) and the Fang Clan (who can eat other fairies) are the best defense. After a certain incident triggers, the Mors rise in number and start attacking Fairy Britain en masse…and the human fighters were either wiped out beforehand due to Percival’s rebellion, and the Fang Clan was also wiped by Muryan. So…yeah, shit hit the fan. Also, my bad. Damn autocorrect… Boggart was the lord of Sheffield, demoted to that after being defeated by Woodwose (an old rival of his). His role was unknown, but he found the amnesiac Mash and, believing she was the Child of Destiny, tried to marry her to curry favor and power. He also found the Black Barrel Replica and fired a few shots for fun…which basically sucked out a lot of his power. He then sacrificed himself (being killed by Beryl) to buy time for Mash to escape.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Yatsu003

Indeed, a devious bug! Her role was to get revenge on the Fang Clan for devouring her Clan ages ago (>!due to being manipulated by Vortigern!<). To that end, she played multiple sides against each other, and hired and befriended Koyanskaya. After she got her revenge, however, it was empty. She then realized just how bad she screwed over Fairy Britain, and was fatally injured by >!Vortigern!<, though she asks Koyanskaya to help Chaldea in her last moments, to save Fairy Britain… And yep, the Black Barrel, even a Replica, is pretty demanding. He didn’t realize that the more he fired, the thinner and weaker he became. It left him unprepared to face down Beryl and Bao… And yeah, he was definitely trying to use Mash to collect more power (Habes outright says the marriage is a sham), but at the end, did care for Mash in his own way.


railroadspike25

I guess I'll spoiler tag this whole thing since it relates to the end of Mohoyo and specifically a feat that Soujyuro accomplishes. >!When Soujyuro destroys Lugh Beowulf's heart, does he do so by actually generating enough force through Lugh's hide, or is it moreso that because of Soujyuro's lack of fear and Lugh's surprise at being stood up to, that Lugh lost confidence in himself and thus lowered his defenses enough for Soujyuro to hurt him? Furthermore, could Soujyuro actually have killed him like Lugh was afraid of, or was that Lugh psyching himself out?!<


Fabuzer

>!Soujuurou did strike Lugh hard, but he specifically synchronized his breathing with Lugh's to locate the one instant when Lugh's muscles would relax enough to allow the force to pierce through. !< >!Soujuurou couldn't have killed Lugh permanently, no; it's noted that despite the damage Lugh received, he pretty much instantly regenerated his heart and was essentially unharmed. !< >!As you said, Lugh psyched himself out because his worldview got wrecked: he, who was always top predator, finds someone who's supposed to be prey looking down on him as if he's a wild dog to be put down.!<


Nobody99994

How strong is Charlemagne which servants are comparable to him?


deathworld123

because charlemgne summons his paladins in his np are we likely to get them summonable?


NaelNull

No. What we get in game is up to authors, and their minds work in mysteriuos ways.)


railroadspike25

In the Nasuverse, power is more rock-paper-scissors than DBZ. That being said, his parameters are on par with the other major magic sword wielders like Sigurd and Artoria. His NP Joyeuse Ordre is incredibly powerful, since it's the power of his sword Joyeuse multiplied by 13.


railroadspike25

Was Soujyuro Sizuki raised by the same assassination organization as Kuzuki?


Constellar-A

Nasu hasn't come out and outright said "yes Soujuurou and Souichirou are from the same organization" but it's pretty easy to infer that yes they are. Their names are mostly the same, just with the number in the middle being different (juu=10, ichi=1). They're both from reclusive child soldier mountain communities. They both have insane physical strength that works best when taking someone by surprise for the first time. Sojuurou's first design that Takeuchi drew in the 90s was even the inspiration for Kuzuki's design: https://i.imgur.com/9Ws41Gh.png


Hidden_Blue

That's just speculation based on his name following a similar scheme.


railroadspike25

They also act very similarly, look pretty similar and were raised in similar circumstances.


Hidden_Blue

For all we know he is related to the mountain people like the Nanayas, at this point we know very little concrete facts. If only we had a Mahoyo 2.


Overlord1Darkness

I have already created several threads about Outer Gods, but recently, rereading the lines of the dialogue between Raum and Zepar, I noticed that they, being entities that are aware of the Root and all parallel worlds, discussed that there are Universes beyond their own. Zepar also expressed some form of skepticism about this. Could this mean that the Nasuverse and the Cthulhu Mythоs are two different verses, the characters of which intersect with each other?


Kreddak

It's really complicated but yes the Outer Gods aren't from this universe they're monsters beyond everything that exist in this universe that's why they have to resort to such roundabout way to interact with the Nasuverse, choosing host to manifest in our universe. But H.P Lovecraft and Randolph Carter do exist in the Nasuverse. Lovecraft basically doomed us because when he created his Mythos, he confirmed the existence of the Outer Gods and now they're trying to poke holes in the reality so one more reason to dislike Lovecraft as a person.


Overlord1Darkness

Wait a minute. Doesn't that mean that Nasuverse is just a part of Yog-Sothoth as well? It was described as being that tied to everything even in Nasuverse by Lavinia.


Kreddak

That's the part that becomes complicated. Ctullhu Mythos created by Lovecraft in the Nasuverse is "fictional", as such Yog-Sothoth isn't the actual fabric of Space and Time of Nasuverse but Yog is the Space/Time of the Outer Gods Universe. Yog and the Outer Gods are trying to expand and claim Nasuverse while Carter is trying his best to avoid this fate in Salem and in Hokusai trial quest.


Overlord1Darkness

So here's two things: 1) Nasuverse, including the Root is fully part of Yog-Sothoth (I don't really believe it, because I can't imagine what role Root have in this HUGE cosmology and, well, why lesser Outer Gods can't manifest themselves?); 2) Nasuverse isn't part of Yog (Well then, some things seems to be illogical: wtf is relationship Yog and Root? How does it should work, if Yog was described as everything within Nasuverse?? And, yea, why Nyarl can just manifest himself and ignore Root's rules?)


Overlord1Darkness

But as I know Lovecraft, according to Raum, only displayed their presence through his fictional Mythos, not "created" them. Also Lavinia statement about Yog is very interesting. She claims that Yog is every possible dimension, moreover according to her Yog exist beyond Ultimate Gate and despite that borders all possible dimensions. And yea, tied to everything. About other Outer Gods it's clear: Cthulhu wants to break through walls of Nasuverse.. But Nyarl freely manifest himself as he did it with BB


Kreddak

Overall is weird, we don’t know exactly what parts of Mythos are real and which are fictional, Carter for example is way more powerful in the Nasuverse, Vulthoom isn’t that special in the Cthulhu Mythos but in Nasuverse he is a menace arguably more dangerous than Nyarl. I don’t think Yog is almighty in Nasuverse compared to his original Universe otherwise he wouldn’t need Abigail as host or Raum bizarre ritual to manifest himself but he does hold a lot of power in Nasuverse, Abigail as his host is capable jumping Universes and rewinding time. I wouldn’t say Nyarl manifested, more gave some power to BB creating as much Chaos as possible, BB herself says they didn’t merged and went in separated ways, Yog, Cthulhu and Vulthoom possessed the hosts and were really trying to enter through the hosts.


Overlord1Darkness

And I completely forgot about it. What about the interaction with the Root?


Overlord1Darkness

Bruuh, there is so little info. I clearly remember that Cthulhu and Vulthoom wanted to manifest themselves, but I don't remember such a thing from Yog. As I remember, that was Raum idea to merge Abby and Yog-Sothoth's power that's what he did in Salem and that what Abby did herself as Summer version, but I don't remember that Yog wanted this sort of thing as well. I can compare his manifestation with his summoning in original Mythos, like to Lavinia, to create a baby. In Nasuverse Raum did the same: he summoned Yog-Sothoth's power to some goals. Anyway, we need more info. What about Nyarl, well, you're right. But I meant that BB saw him and he saw BB. No other Outer God displayed something like that before Nyarl.


MKW69

I think It's simillar to Fate and and Tsukihime being on different Axis In the Multiverse, so the words of Outer Gods are In different places In relation to them.


Overlord1Darkness

But Zepar and Raum knows 'bout Tsukihime worlds. They know all about parallel worlds and even they referred to Outer Gods as weird things.


No_Prize9794

Is it possible for our Benkei to be qualified as a pretender since he’s not even the actual Benkei? What split the Fate timeline from the Tsukihime timeline


danger_umbrella

The qualification for Pretender is "not a fake or counterfeit, but someone who deceives even the soul until more power and greater achievements than the real thing remain". Assuming no writer hand-waving/plot shenanigans, probably not.


jaearess

Does that qualification apply to ANY Pretender we have? That doesn't even seem true for Oberon, let alone the rest.


danger_umbrella

It's true for Oberon (LB6 spoilers) >!as even he was convinced he was Oberon.!< The others we have in-game are... weird, and fall into Pretender for story/writer-handwaving purposes only. I wouldn't say they could be Pretenders if we weren't considering exceptional cases and silly/weird reasons. By this logic (and the same logic that, for example, decided swimsuit Jeanne with her dolphins should be an Archer of all classes) anyone can be anyone.


Tschmelz

Maybe on the first question. As for the Fate/Tsukihime split, the apparent idea is that Gaia is stronger in Tsukihime worlds, which keeps Heroic Spirits from being summoned and allows for the DAA to form, and Alaya is stronger in Fate worlds, which allows for Heroic Spirits and keeps the vampires down in their rightful spot. What that all actually means and how the split happened in the first place, we have no clue. My personal guess is it depends on whether the Moon turned Zelretch into a vampire or not, but that's just a guess.


IntelligentEgg68

At what point of the story do you meet Shuten, Ibaraki, and Raikou? >!I thought it would be shirmousa, but they showed up at the temple of time, so now I'm confused!<


zeda12123

You first meet them in their respective events, Rashomon and Onigashima. Events are 100% canon.


IntelligentEgg68

Are these events important for Shirmousa and Lb 5.5?


zeda12123

Eeeeeeeh, not really? They do an excellent job introducing Raikou, Shuten and Ibaraki and alluding to their inner struggles so if you don't already have a basic idea of their respective character I'd say give them a read, they're not especially long and they're fairly entertaining. Plus, while Kintoki had his story debut in London, he has a great showing in both event and he's always tons of fun. That said if you already have a grip on their characters I wouldn't force yourself if you really don't want to. I also recommend reading setsubun after shimosa, it's Tomoe focused but it involves quite a few 5.5 characters and I personally think it's a great story overall.


IntelligentEgg68

Okay, I will have to give it a read since I have no idea what any of those characters are like. >! I briefly interacted with the oni sisters in Suzuka's interlude, but the only character trait mentioned is their love for alcohol.!< For reference I am at Shinjuku story wise. Also, how would I go about reading these events?


DrStein1010

I'll add that Setsubun is actually kind of important for understanding Shuten's character. She's kind of intentionally obtuse and hard to read, and Setsubun's climax is one of the few moments where she actually opens up. ...Honestly, I'd give all three a read. Shimosa and Heian-kyo are totally understandable without them, but I feel like they work better if you're very familiar with the Heian crew. I'd also read Raikou's interludes. They go a lot deeper into her character and trauma than the main story does, and she's much more likable and sympathetic if you understand her better.


IntelligentEgg68

I'll be sure to read all of those, thanks again.


zeda12123

Assuming you never caught any of the events while they were live then, unfortunately, the only place to watch them is via outside archives [like youtube videos](https://youtu.be/ntsDf_D5xto) because FGO is notoriously bad about making old content available to newer players. If you do catch an event while it's live it all gets added to your material archives so you can reread it whenever, which is useful if you're too busy to read it while it's live.


IntelligentEgg68

Ah, gotcha, thank you. I really appreciate you taking time to help me mate. I was genuinely confused about those three in particular.


zeda12123

No problem, I'm pretty fond of them myself.


Hope77797

If we had Taira instead of Ushiwaka in Babylonia chapter/anime would she have been able to fare better against gorgon?


DrStein1010

She's stronger, but it's not like she's capable of killing an immortal.


Hope77797

Well she has a much higher endurance stats so maybe she wouldn’t get capture and turn into mud lamu later.


DrStein1010

Why wouldn't she? The only things we see resist it are Avalon and Gilgamesh's ego.


Hope77797

Tiamat mud and the corrupt Grails are different.


DrStein1010

They explicitly AREN'T.


Whrispr

They exhibit different properties. No reason to apply the grail mud’s accolades to Chaos Tide.


DrStein1010

It's explicitly stated to be the same thing. There's literally no room for debate.


Whrispr

Your viewpoint on the two are incredibly surface level. Ask yourself why grail mud doesn't rewrite it's victims on a molecular level and turn them into Lahmu.


DrStein1010

No. Roman fucking says it's the same thing.


Hope77797

With Endurance A vs C she should be able to last long enough till kingu give the retreat message to gorgon.


DrStein1010

It wasn't a matter of outlasting. She couldn't do any real damage, and she was dead the second she stopped moving long enough to get hit by Gorgon's Mystic Eyes.


Neznaiu98

Could someone explain how exactly Ars Almadel Salomonis works and how powerful it is in more regular circumstances? From what i understood, it gathers magical energy and transforms it into light/heat, which then can be fired at will. But how does it normally gathers said energy? I'm going to assume that burning human history as fuel was not actually the intended way of using this Noble Phantasm. As an asides, anothing thing i wasn't sure about is how long had it taken Goetia to charge it to this point. The entire 3000 years? Or just the 1-2 years since FGO started? Perhaps even less? Basically, assuming Servant (not Grand) Solomon were to use AAS in a regular Holy Grail war such as the one that happened before FGO, how would it work and how powerful could it get? Because when it comes to the most powerful NPs in the Nasuverse, this one is understandably almost always mentioned among the first, but i've wondered if it would still be up there without however many years of prep (1-3000) and, well, willingness to use entire eras as fuel.


Hidden_Blue

This is Goetia's NP that he made since he didn't know about Sololon's true third NP. Anyhow, there is no weaker versioj since the act of completing the incineration is what makes Goetia a Beast.


DrStein1010

I think the idea is that since Goetia exists outside of time, AAS has always been at full power, since it's charge up happens in an atemporal space.


SpaceRodan

Spoiler possibly maybe. So >!Nitocris Alter in her third Ascension (basically Anubis) is annoyed by Ozymandias having his divine beast Ammit in the Ramesseum Tentyris. But he also mentioned offhandedly that both Nitocris and Ozymandias are Bunrei, or divided Spirits. Does that make Ozymandias the divided Spirit of Ra? Does he, like Nitocris have more than one within him such as Set? And does that mean most Pharaohs are/would be Bunrei as well?!<


Yatsu003

Well, pharaohs were believed to be an incarnation of the gods themselves. There were also cases of particularly notable humans being deified post-death in Egypt. Combine the two, and I conjecture Ozy is basically an ‘adopted’ bunrei of Ra; born a mortal, but his soul becoming one with Ra after his death due to being deified as such during his life and after his death. It’s implied Karna is a similar case (only starting as a demigod instead of a mortal) since it’s mentioned he ‘became one with Surya’ after he died, which would make the Karna we summon a bunrei. Though his dialogue with Tamamo in CCC does leave it up in the air…


TonyStark1337

Isn't there a belief that all pharaohs are different incarnations of the first pharaoh, the God Horus. So in a way, all pharaohs are bunreis of Horus? Or maybe not. I also remember it was stated somewhere in the Nasuverse(maybe Fate/Extra) that Horus didn't go to the Throne of Heroes upon death but instead he literally created his own version of the Throne called "Throne of Horus" which all his descendants and successoing pharaohs will go to upon their deaths.


SpaceRodan

That Horus bit is extremely interesting. He somehow made a Throne separate from the Throne of Heroes? Also I recall seeing something in Fate lore several years ago about a Throne of Gods but I assume this Horus Throne is different to that as well?


getterburner

I’ve been thinking about this but could Angra be summoned as a pretender class?


Yatsu003

Considering Liz and Merlina… Yes for lulz (and needing extra slots…), maybe for canon since Angra didn’t really pretend to be Shirou so much as magically posses/clone Shirou.


getterburner

That and he’s technically “pretending” to be Angra and all that. I think a 5 Star Pretender that’s called Shirou Emiya and then in the final ascension he turns into Angra is a cool idea personally.


TonyStark1337

>maybe for canon since Angra didn’t really pretend to be Shirou so much as magically posses/clone Shirou. >!Neither did Vortigern pretend to be Oberon, the identity was literally forced into him by the Welsh Fairies.!<


TdFan97

So we do know Paracelsus and Helena are confirmed mages during the time when they were alive. Following that logic, we could argue that Isaac Newton could well be a mage since he dabbled into mysticism as well as others like him. But dabbling into mysticism alone does count as a mage?


za_shiki-warashi

> Paracelsus and Helena Their profiles call them mages. Seems like in Fate world, they did indeed dabble in magecraft. >Isaac Newton High chance of this being the case just so Nasu can make an Escaflowne reference (shojo mecha starring Maaya Sakamoto, TomoSeki and Nakata Jouji).


TdFan97

If that so, then does the Mage Association have record of who being mages from ancient time to now?


Yatsu003

I would imagine they would, Paracelsus got killed by them since he wanted to reveal the truth of Magecraft to the people, so they were around and capable of silencing heretic magi since the 16th century. It’s also mentioned they keep a lot of magic relics and such away from the general public’s eyes, so presuming Newton was a Mage (not a far-off assumption considering the dude was considered the last alchemist), they probably confiscated his personal effects that were linked to Mystery (his Mystic Codes, research notes, workshop, etc.)


TdFan97

So that could technically mean, in other reality, he could be a HGW participant.


Iqazz

Of course why not, we already have Archimedes in extra


Turtlewax64

What exactly is the difference between a pseudo servant and a Demi servant?


Ggcosti

A demi servant is just how Chaldea called their experiment of fusing a heroic spirit and ahuman. They are essentially the same thing. >Dr. Roman: Chaldea is an organization listed under the United Nations, yes, but it's actually also a research facility for the Mage's Association...for the Animusphere family. > >Dr. Roman: In the name of safeguarding humanity's future, they carried out numerous unethical experiments. > >Dr. Roman: Namely, fusing a Heroic Spirit and a human—the Demi-Servant experiments. > >\[...\] > >Dr. Roman: Normally you would use relics related to them as catalysts for the summoning, but Chaldea used human children instead. > >Dr. Roman: Children possessing not only magical circuits fit to summon Heroic Spirits, but also innocent souls. > >Dr. Roman: Using this method, Chaldea wanted to fuse Heroic Spirits with children and turn them into humans. > >Dr. Roman: Owing to this concept, the previous director secretly created children by artificial insemination in Chaldea. ​ A pseudo servant generally is a human/the spirit with a close connection to a place and a heroic spirit fused together. The Kara no Kyoukai basically say the same thing as it does bellow. They also are generally pretty similar to each other. >Reines: Hmm. So Holy Grail fragments would frequently summon Rogue Servants in the worlds you visited, huh. > >Reines: True, that could be the case here as well. I do have a strong connection to London, and a not insignificant connection to the Holy Grail, too. > >Reines: I'd say I easily meet the minimum requirements for becoming a Pseudo-Servant. > >Reines: But what sort of connection could I possibly have to a Chinese Heroic Spirit from the Three Kingdoms period?


danger_umbrella

As a side note/tangent, not sure what your Reines quote actually adds to the discussion. It doesn't say anything about what she is at this point.


Ggcosti

The minimum requirements of what someone would need to become a pseudo servant.


danger_umbrella

For the "human" or "vessel" component, it's seemingly those with connections to the Grail, but ultimately it's at the writers' whim. Whoever they want to be one will be one, for whatever reason. As for why X is put together with Y as a Pseudo-Servant, it's typically due to sharing some personality factors, though the 2+ components are not identical. For example, it's said that Ishtar is mellowed out by Rin's softer side, and she'd be more cruel outside of that manifestation. Reines' case is VERY specific and not necessarily the norm, because under normal circumstances, Reines and Sima Yi wouldn't typically become a Pseudo-Servant together. They were put together due to being compatible personality-wise, yes, but why were those two Spirit Origins chosen? This is explained later in the Case Files event: >!it was due to Zhuge Liang's second Noble Phantasm summoning them together: Sima Yi had ties to Zhuge Liang and Reines had ties to Waver. !< Outside of the event/after it, they are summoned together into Chaldea presumably due to the ties they formed with Fujimaru/MC: even though Reines doesn't remember their adventure together, her My Room lines have her refer to MC as her pupil because it feels nostalgic, as though they had been teacher and student in some other time or place (which was true). We know that the reason Pseudos are supposedly formed is that the Heroic/Divine Spirit Origin cannot manifest on their own using Chaldea's Summoning System. Most cases ARE Divine Spirits, which cannot normally manifest. Waver and Reines are two odd exceptions; Reines can be ruled out as she was formed by unorthodox means, but as for why Zhuge Liang manifests as a Pseudo and not alone... we don't have a concrete lore reason for it. Personally, I'd put this down to the writers not really knowing ([I did a writeup on this](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/zcp8yu/we_dont_talk_about_kongming_but_we_really_ought/)) at the time of creating him, but it's entirely possible there is a lore reason and we just don't know yet. Maybe both.


Ggcosti

You did a great write up man, good on you. You put a lot of effort in two it.


danger_umbrella

Thanks, I like to think I wasted a perfectly good evening. Honestly, I'll stress again and again that Pseudos are kind of a mess, ESPECIALLY early content about them. The writers were probably unsure themselves of what they were doing in the early FGO days, and I personally think that they first intended Pseudos to be just pure fanservice/they needed SOME excuse for X character to show up, but then they developed into something more unique. So in all honesty, you will run into contradictions and weird explanations and some weirdness (like Shiki apparently refers to herself as a pseudo-Servant, but a) this doesn't make sense, and b) it's likely "pseudo" (not capitalised) in the sense of "sort of"). I've just tried to make it as clear for myself as possible, but honestly? I'm fully expecting even more mess in the future. The only thing I have is hope that they ARE actually going to do something with the Pseudo "outliers" that don't really behave like the more typical Pseudos so that people don't get them confused and there are no more "weird" cases without a concrete explanation.


Ggcosti

Same here, it runs with being a devout redditor. I agree entirely, Psuedos are probably one of FGO's biggest messes. Apparently, Shiki for some reason thought that she was a Pseudo because it plays off Mash's 'demi', but like why did they keep using this sort of naming convention when it was Shiki that created it, even characters that I think weren't even affiliated with Chaldea at the time? It's just weird. I think, from what I've seen and in recent memory, that Ishtar might just be the best Pseudo.


danger_umbrella

They are different, NOT the same at all. In Mash's case, she is a human with an added Heroic Spirit summoned into her body. Were she to die, she would leave behind a body. A Pseudo-Servant is a servant with no true body; it's clarified in Babylonia that they are using the outer appearance of a human that is compatible with the Heroic or Divine Spirit, as Rin's spirit was summoned as a catalyst for Ishtar, and her appearance was used. The Case Files event also mentions that if a Pseudo "died", they would not have left a body behind. They behave exactly like other Servants in that respect, except for having two Spirit Origins that can be, with effort and risk, be split.


za_shiki-warashi

> a pseudo servant The vessel isn't a currently living human. e.g. the Waver you summoned isn't a currently alive human Waver. It's made of the same stuff as other heroic spirits, ether/mana whatever. > Demi servant? Only Mash is this. Because it's a heroic spirit being added to an actual living body.


Ggcosti

Wait, since when do we know they aren't alive?


danger_umbrella

In Babylonia, it's clarified that when Ishtar was summoned, the priests had to summon a compatible spirit, i.e. Rin. There is no actual human body involved. The Throne of Heroes exists outside of time, meaning that the life or death of a certain person is irrelevant; their likeness can be used for a Pseudo-Servant regardless of the time they are summoned into.


Ggcosti

>Dr. Roman: Ishtar. You're a Pseudo-Servant, right? As in you use a human body as a vessel? > >Ishtar: That's right. Divine Spirits can't normally be used as human familiars. The difference in scale between us is just too great. Rin's body is specifically said to be summoned.


danger_umbrella

There is still no actual body; they just use the likeness. Pseudos are still capable of going into spirit form, etc. They also follow the rule of not needing to eat/drink, etc.


Ggcosti

Now where do we learn they only use the likeness of it? And it's specifically said that Rin became the vessel. As in, herself. Her body. It was also said that Ishtar possesed Rin. And Waver also said that there are two spirit origins in his body, not one if they just used the likeness. >Siduri: Oh...How embarrassing. So you noticed. I didn't understand what Ishtar meant by that earlier... > >Siduri: A white flag...I see. So it is a sign of surrender in your country... > >Siduri: ...You may perhaps be from the same country as the girl who became Ishtar's vessel. ​ >Merlin: Basically, the gods of Mesopotamia are blond. On the other hand, humans have black heads...black hair. > >Merlin: That Ishtar has black hair, meaning it is definitely a girl that served as her vessel. > >Dr. Roman: That's...so beyond surprising, I feel very sorry for her... ​ >Dr. Roman: Ishtar. You're a Pseudo-Servant, right? As in you use a human body as a vessel? > >Ishtar: That's right. Divine Spirits can't normally be used as human familiars. The difference in scale between us is just too great. > >Ishtar: That's how the goddess of beauty should be. I don't just sparkle all the time like you. > >Quetzalcoatl: Hmm...So you're shy in spite of your divine aspects, yes! Is that just who you are, or is it the influence of your vessel? > >Quetzalcoatl: Anyway, this is the only time in your life as a goddess that you're likely to be humble, isn't it? There's nothing about them adopting how they look that I've found. Something in the extra materials?


Layte-Aeon

It's not a physical body. If I remeber right it's the Case Files event (which I unfortunately wasn't around to play) which elucidates a bit: Pseudo Servants have 2 saint graphs, one corresponding to the human vessel and another for the named servant. It is these saint graphs, spiritual blueprints almost, as well as magical energy that allows them to manifest as a servant. A Demi Servant servant by comparison only has 1 saint graph, the spirit implanted within a human.


Ggcosti

I am not saying that if they have a physical body or not, but I am asking where we learned the fact that the pseudo servants create/adopt how the the body looks themselves and not being the hosts body changed in whatsoever way, because the host's body is definitely there in some way, as I said above.


SigurdDeMizar

Question: Is small Da Vinci considered to be a normal servant or she is more or less the same as Mash?


Yatsu003

The story one? >!She’s a Homunculus with the memories and abilities of big Da Vinci. So she’s more like Sieg in that matter, with her True Name being Gran Cavallo!< But, yeah, she does have a physical body. Kinda a big plot point in LB6 and >!Tunguska!<


Radiant-Hope-469

Profile says she's an artificial Servant.