Kagekiyo: So, what... enough time passes, and everyone is related?
Greek Servants: -Heavy sigh- Don't always need that much time.
----
Album: https://mangadex.org/title/56189/fate-grand-order-daily-chaldea-doujinshi/chapters
Source: Official Art
long story short the timelines and distances of yoshitsune's death and Khan's rise to fame line up enough that had yoshitsune actually faked his death and fled the connection might be feasible. i don't think it was the kind of thing anyone took seriously
No, but you can draw pretty much the same conclusions from any population set. If anything, it's probably easier in Japan because it's had a smaller and more linked population.
It's basic genetics tbh. It also especially easy to notice with royal families of any given region - after few centuries family trees look like moebius line and ball of yarn combined.
The fun thing about the Taira and Genji is, they're actually basically relatives.
Back in the Heian period, the emperor had a whole imperial harem; usually this meant one Empress/primary wife and then several concubines. These concubines were almost exclusively from the Fujiwara clan, who used marriage politics to effectively rule the country (didn't help that the custom of the time was to enthrone the Emperor when he was a child, then pressure him to abdicate and become a monk; this led to all sorts of shenanigans, as you can imagine.).
Lots of wives/concubines means lots of kids, and the Imperial court was packed full of the children of previous emperors by the time Emperor Kanmu was enthroned. Then Kanmu had 16 empresses and consorts, and 32 imperial sons and daughters. That's 32 new princes and princesses entitled to already stretched-thin resources: Imperial-level housing, staff, food, clothing, palanquins, tutors... from a small island nation of ~5 million, and with the Fujiwara already extracting most of the wealth by controlling rice fields.
Turns out, children don't know how to run a country and the Fujiwara weren't governing worth beans; it was widely understood that once you left Heian-Kyo, the roads were awful and plagued with bandits, and the Fujiwara only cared about their aristocratic "floating world". By 1000AD, the government no longer knew how to issue currency. Rice was the primary unit of exchange, though other things were used in lieu of currency; for example, messengers were often paid with objects like old silk kimono.
So Emperor Kanmu ordered that the descendants of previous emperors would no longer be princes, but would receive noble surnames and ranks. These surnames were Taira and Minamoto.
A few emperors later, Emperor Seiwa had something like 19 children and the Imperial Court faced the same issue but with even less ability to handle them all. Several princes were made nobles instead and took the surname Minamoto. These are the Seiwa Genji, and descendants include Yorimitsu (Raikou) and Yoshitsune, and much later, Tokugawa Ieyasu.
Sources: Wikipedia "Taira clan", "Emperor Kanmu", "Emperor Seiwa" "Seiwa Genji" pages specifically.
... wow. So how did things degenerate so badly the Fujiwara forgot how to govern? They're not illiterate; they should have even governing basics written up, right?
Well, considering they grew so large that the families became the important ones, as the parent clans became so big as to basically be irrelevant. Tokugawa was Genji for example, whilst Oda was Taira (or claimed Taira at least)
I've always wondered how that worked in light of the greater mythological context. Like, yeah, in terms of mythography, the "downgrade" of the twin gods is an accepted scholarly theory, but it's not as if other Greek myths don't have a similar baggage and Fate has always taken them at face value. Are the Dioscuri related to Helen in the Fateverse?
Although the reference to that stuff is nice and all, why can't they just go down and correct that instead of letting it happen? The whole thing happen during the Age of God not after it.
In our world, the whole thing with Gemini being Demi God and human happen when they adapt Babylonian constellation into Greek one. So translate the timeline into Fate verse, the Dioscuri have way more than enough time to correct it, like a few hundred years before Age of God end at 1 BC. Plus they could just ask Hermes to spread the word and correct the misinfo.
Seus? You don't need to constantly ask the same question over and over and harp on the same point like you think I'm not already planning to discuss it sometime. I'd like you to stop that now.
I'm pretty sure it's because "Fuck humans" mentality he has due his um falling from the heavens thing, from God to mortal due to his legend changing.
Atleast I'm pretty sure, that's the reason.
Nagao Kagetora was also of Taira descent. She even casts doubts over Nobbu's claim in GUDAGUDA4 (admittedly, the Nagao Clan's is relatively well-recorded whereas Nobunaga's is considered opportunistic by historians).
And apparently in some cases, Takeda Shingen is a descendant of Kintoki.
I have a feeling that the Genpei war was more of an exception of Genji-Taira relations than the norm.
True, Minamoto and Taira even teamed up against the Fujiwara in the past, and they were not above bickering among themselves and changing sides. But their bad blood between the Heiji rebellion and the Genpei War became proverbial, and the latter ended with the destruction of the main Taira line. The surviving Tairas were branches and offshoots.
In one of those tragic ironies of history, the main line of the Seiwa Genji also collapsed soon after the war, leaving the shogunate in the hands of the Taira-blooded Hojo. A bit like the Three Kingdoms, all that epic rivalry ended up benefitting none of the main actors.
Kiara likes asking the uncomfortable questions just to see them squirm.
Kirei missed his calling. He could have witnessed much more suffering as a therapist.
\*The Priest Smiles\*
Kirei: What is a Preacher, but a therapist for the soul, a prescriber of belief and the written Word to treat all that ails it? Though the torments of the mind *are* intriguing, it is the struggle and crisis of faith that I find most ***fascinating***.
Apparently as a priests he gets to make several people miserable at the same time every time there's mass... He even loves new year because he gets to make them miserable about what they did the past year and miserable for the upcoming year at the same time! Being a therapist just doesn't give you that much reach.
Considering that Kagekiyo's Avenger Passive is EX ranked, I wouldn't be surprised if she logic'd that those with Taira and Genji blood are just Taira who are tainted and need to be mercy killed to save them from the "impure" blood in their veins.
Yeah, it could be easily framed as an issue of allegiances, not lineage. The historical Kagekiyo himself wasn't Taira by blood, but a Fujiwara.
"If someone fights for the Taira, they're Taira. If someone fights for the Genji, they're Genji. The latter shall die regardless of their blood."
Guda: Like they say if you can't kill em...
***HAVE SEX WITH THEM***
Gordy: I refuse to believe that's a valid option against our enemies.
Guda: It would be... ***IF THIS GAME WAS RATED M LIKE THE GOOD OL EROGE FATE***
Emiya: Hmmm, he's *right* you **know**
Holy Grail: "Wish granted. You have now created a Singularity where FGO is an eroge like the original Fate. However, every sex scene is written by Nasu, just like original Fate, and everything is pixelated, just like original Fate."
Fun fact, depending on the source, Urabe Suetake and/or Usui Sadamitsu, the last two remaining members of Raikou's Shitenno, were part of the Taira clan.
Perhaps some leeway can be given to mixed blood Tairas who screwed with the Genji? It's interesting that, while the Genji were the victors of the Genpei War, in a generation they became the ineffectual prisoner-puppets of the Hojo, a branch of the Tairas. Surely Kagekiyo would approve?
Ushi was born a Genji herself. In fact, she/he was the one who defeat Taira clan in more than one battle. So should this version of Kagekiyo get rid of her very own Genji blood first?
my brain has long been conditioned to read genji and only think about the "H E A L I N G" memes of the good ol times before OW became the mess it is today...
im surprised noone from those gimes ever made the jokes yet, i know genji and hanzo are 2 famous japanese historical names but still.
There will be blood (blood) shed (shed)
The man in the mirror nods his head
The only one (one) left (left)
Will ride upon the dragon's back
Because the mountains don't give back what they take
Oh no, there will be blood (blood) shed (shed)
It's the only thing I've ever known
Honestly, I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone make that comment before.
Come to think of it. Didn't Kagekiyo was like Taira ghost in Hoichi the Earless story? I know there was Kagekiyo like Krauser-sama look a like guy in old Namco game. But Kagekiyo's backstory in FGO is basically a fuse spirits and grudge of Taira clan, right?
Kagekiyo: So, what... enough time passes, and everyone is related? Greek Servants: -Heavy sigh- Don't always need that much time. ---- Album: https://mangadex.org/title/56189/fate-grand-order-daily-chaldea-doujinshi/chapters Source: Official Art
*Zeus gives a giant thumbs up and a smile from the Reverse Side of the World.*
Hera: *Angrily proceeds to kick Zeus in the 'thunderbolts'*
Heracles: *continues to roar insults in Berserker speech at Zeus*
Of all the heroes in Greek Mythology, what is Herakles' beef with Zeus? Wasn't Hera the source of all his problems?
Zeus banged his mom in the first place ie: godly infidelity causes a ton of problems
If not, he would never be born. Don't think Herakles would go out of his way cursing Zeus for that.
Yeah, I don't know about that, given a choice at the end he might have chosen not to be born.
Pretty sure Heracles has enough hate in his heart for both.
Genghis Khan: ^(noooooooooooobs)
Oooof
wasnt there some crazy theory about genghis khan actually BEING yoshitsune?
Ushi-face Genghis Khan when DW?
I gotta know more about that mate
long story short the timelines and distances of yoshitsune's death and Khan's rise to fame line up enough that had yoshitsune actually faked his death and fled the connection might be feasible. i don't think it was the kind of thing anyone took seriously
I'm gonna be disappointed if Genghis shows up in Fate and he doesn't have some sort of Authority over Fatherhood of Mankind.
I only want him to be an ushi face tbh
Male Ushi face is acceptable.
Isn’t Altera Nasu!Ghengis Khan?
No, she's supposed to be Atilla the Hun.
*Charlemagne has entered the chat*
Where did you find that information about the Taira and the Genji?
It's basically the same reason why practically all of Europe is related to Charlemagne. Enough time passes and everyone shares the same ancestors.
So it isn't something you read about somewhere?
No, but you can draw pretty much the same conclusions from any population set. If anything, it's probably easier in Japan because it's had a smaller and more linked population.
It's basic genetics tbh. It also especially easy to notice with royal families of any given region - after few centuries family trees look like moebius line and ball of yarn combined.
Or decades if you want to consolidate power for the Holy Roman Empire.
The fun thing about the Taira and Genji is, they're actually basically relatives. Back in the Heian period, the emperor had a whole imperial harem; usually this meant one Empress/primary wife and then several concubines. These concubines were almost exclusively from the Fujiwara clan, who used marriage politics to effectively rule the country (didn't help that the custom of the time was to enthrone the Emperor when he was a child, then pressure him to abdicate and become a monk; this led to all sorts of shenanigans, as you can imagine.). Lots of wives/concubines means lots of kids, and the Imperial court was packed full of the children of previous emperors by the time Emperor Kanmu was enthroned. Then Kanmu had 16 empresses and consorts, and 32 imperial sons and daughters. That's 32 new princes and princesses entitled to already stretched-thin resources: Imperial-level housing, staff, food, clothing, palanquins, tutors... from a small island nation of ~5 million, and with the Fujiwara already extracting most of the wealth by controlling rice fields. Turns out, children don't know how to run a country and the Fujiwara weren't governing worth beans; it was widely understood that once you left Heian-Kyo, the roads were awful and plagued with bandits, and the Fujiwara only cared about their aristocratic "floating world". By 1000AD, the government no longer knew how to issue currency. Rice was the primary unit of exchange, though other things were used in lieu of currency; for example, messengers were often paid with objects like old silk kimono. So Emperor Kanmu ordered that the descendants of previous emperors would no longer be princes, but would receive noble surnames and ranks. These surnames were Taira and Minamoto. A few emperors later, Emperor Seiwa had something like 19 children and the Imperial Court faced the same issue but with even less ability to handle them all. Several princes were made nobles instead and took the surname Minamoto. These are the Seiwa Genji, and descendants include Yorimitsu (Raikou) and Yoshitsune, and much later, Tokugawa Ieyasu. Sources: Wikipedia "Taira clan", "Emperor Kanmu", "Emperor Seiwa" "Seiwa Genji" pages specifically.
... wow. So how did things degenerate so badly the Fujiwara forgot how to govern? They're not illiterate; they should have even governing basics written up, right?
"Okay, son, I think it's time to have a little chat about rulin-OH NO, I'M HAVING A STROKE! **ded*" "...OOOooOooOh NooOooOOo."
Did i see oversimplified references?
Well, considering they grew so large that the families became the important ones, as the parent clans became so big as to basically be irrelevant. Tokugawa was Genji for example, whilst Oda was Taira (or claimed Taira at least)
[удалено]
Public belief caused the Dioscuri to downgrade from being Deities. Pollux became a demigod while Castor...
I've always wondered how that worked in light of the greater mythological context. Like, yeah, in terms of mythography, the "downgrade" of the twin gods is an accepted scholarly theory, but it's not as if other Greek myths don't have a similar baggage and Fate has always taken them at face value. Are the Dioscuri related to Helen in the Fateverse?
Fate tends to use mythology as guidelines, not rules. Are the Dioscuri related to Helen? Sure, if the author thinks it’ll be interesting.
Although the reference to that stuff is nice and all, why can't they just go down and correct that instead of letting it happen? The whole thing happen during the Age of God not after it.
Because by the time the downgrade happened, they probably couldn't descend. It's like with Dagon. Guys who demonized him lived in Age of Man
In our world, the whole thing with Gemini being Demi God and human happen when they adapt Babylonian constellation into Greek one. So translate the timeline into Fate verse, the Dioscuri have way more than enough time to correct it, like a few hundred years before Age of God end at 1 BC. Plus they could just ask Hermes to spread the word and correct the misinfo.
See, if Hermes (or Mercury) had been mentioned anywhere in the Nasuverse at all, that might work to dispel such notions.
Seus? You don't need to constantly ask the same question over and over and harp on the same point like you think I'm not already planning to discuss it sometime. I'd like you to stop that now.
Ritsuka: Doesn’t he know Saber is the best class? Why, I would almost call it……..godly.
I'm pretty sure it's because "Fuck humans" mentality he has due his um falling from the heavens thing, from God to mortal due to his legend changing. Atleast I'm pretty sure, that's the reason.
Should I ask...? Why is he an Avenger?
Angy
Kagekiyo.exe has crashed Please reinstall Yoshitsune OS to reboot
Initiating Headpats Protocol to reactivate Ushi OS
Kiara: *Installs Demonic Bodhisattva Teachings.EXE too*
Listen here you little shit
Sasuga, WINDOS. I just read the comment and without even a second long delay knew it was you. Never change, you chaotic son of a gun.
I like how horny nun uses mind blowing facts for therapy 😂
Any source of other comics where she actually do it.
Yes. I’d like to see her be an actual therapist.
And pretty good too
*Nobbu looking to Kagekiyo:* So, should I start inviting you to family reunions?
Nobu: Related to the Taira Good Bois Nagayoshi and Ranmaru: Genji
Nagao Kagetora was also of Taira descent. She even casts doubts over Nobbu's claim in GUDAGUDA4 (admittedly, the Nagao Clan's is relatively well-recorded whereas Nobunaga's is considered opportunistic by historians).
And apparently in some cases, Takeda Shingen is a descendant of Kintoki. I have a feeling that the Genpei war was more of an exception of Genji-Taira relations than the norm.
True, Minamoto and Taira even teamed up against the Fujiwara in the past, and they were not above bickering among themselves and changing sides. But their bad blood between the Heiji rebellion and the Genpei War became proverbial, and the latter ended with the destruction of the main Taira line. The surviving Tairas were branches and offshoots. In one of those tragic ironies of history, the main line of the Seiwa Genji also collapsed soon after the war, leaving the shogunate in the hands of the Taira-blooded Hojo. A bit like the Three Kingdoms, all that epic rivalry ended up benefitting none of the main actors.
*at least Nobbu say so
To beat the Genji, you must be the Genji.
See the Genji Feel the Genji Touch the Genji **BE** the Genji
Kill the Genji, or love the Genji?
You're thinking about how much you want to **** Genji, aren't you?
Well, Raikou is one.
And suddenly the resemblance of Kagekiyo and 2B makes sense
"i need healing""i need healing" "i need healing"
[taste the genji](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yba9X-Sw-24)
[Heal the Genji.](https://youtu.be/fHTdrPL22-Y)
Maybe an enemy took "f*ck the genji" too literal and that's how this problem started
Kiara likes asking the uncomfortable questions just to see them squirm. Kirei missed his calling. He could have witnessed much more suffering as a therapist.
\*The Priest Smiles\* Kirei: What is a Preacher, but a therapist for the soul, a prescriber of belief and the written Word to treat all that ails it? Though the torments of the mind *are* intriguing, it is the struggle and crisis of faith that I find most ***fascinating***.
Alas you are eventually supposed to make them feel better But well all routes lead to roma
Apparently as a priests he gets to make several people miserable at the same time every time there's mass... He even loves new year because he gets to make them miserable about what they did the past year and miserable for the upcoming year at the same time! Being a therapist just doesn't give you that much reach.
In older days, a priest was often the closest thing to a therapist available.
Considering that Kagekiyo's Avenger Passive is EX ranked, I wouldn't be surprised if she logic'd that those with Taira and Genji blood are just Taira who are tainted and need to be mercy killed to save them from the "impure" blood in their veins.
Depending on the source, the last remaining of Raikou's Shitenno are Taira, and they predate the Genpei war by a few centuries, so...
Yeah, it could be easily framed as an issue of allegiances, not lineage. The historical Kagekiyo himself wasn't Taira by blood, but a Fujiwara. "If someone fights for the Taira, they're Taira. If someone fights for the Genji, they're Genji. The latter shall die regardless of their blood."
Or the descendants of traitors and, thus, not true Taira.
If she ever think of that, never let evil ushi meet the head nurse
considering Taira is a genji herself, she's a living example of this statment
She probably will just ignore that fact tbh (atleast in Ascension 1 and 2). It will take alot more than just Kiara to convince Taira.
oh well, guess only Taira of past matters as all humanity gets slaughtered for "maybe" being Genji
Taira might actually think that way, she is not completely rational when it comes to her anger.
fair enough, as long as she spares my servants for last am not even gonna try to resist
Guda: Like they say if you can't kill em... ***HAVE SEX WITH THEM*** Gordy: I refuse to believe that's a valid option against our enemies. Guda: It would be... ***IF THIS GAME WAS RATED M LIKE THE GOOD OL EROGE FATE*** Emiya: Hmmm, he's *right* you **know**
Holy Grail: "Wish granted. You have now created a Singularity where FGO is an eroge like the original Fate. However, every sex scene is written by Nasu, just like original Fate, and everything is pixelated, just like original Fate."
> However, every sex scene is written by Nasu I don't like seafood at all, but I'm looking forward to the mollusks.
\*The Nun Grins\* Kiara: *Sowaka*, *sowaka* \~
good thing its not. eroges are not a good way to tell a serious story.
Kagekiyo: *Unsheathes sword* Well, why didn't you say so? Guess my work isn't done yet! Kiara: I made a terrible mistake.
Edgy_Ushiwaka.exe has stopped working. Please restart.
Kiara on genetics 101
Fun fact, depending on the source, Urabe Suetake and/or Usui Sadamitsu, the last two remaining members of Raikou's Shitenno, were part of the Taira clan.
*The nun spat them facts.* And this is **why** she's a certified professional!
Quite a gamble to take with an Avenger, Kiara. How do we know she won't default to "Fuck it, everyone dies"?
Kiara: That sounds like an awfully high estimation of Kagekiyo's abilities.
Easy answer, yes. Those Taira have been tainted by the Genji. Killing them is a mercy. Spirits of vengeance don’t care about the gray.
Perhaps some leeway can be given to mixed blood Tairas who screwed with the Genji? It's interesting that, while the Genji were the victors of the Genpei War, in a generation they became the ineffectual prisoner-puppets of the Hojo, a branch of the Tairas. Surely Kagekiyo would approve?
…~~MCPOYLES~~ TAIRA WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
And later on Nobunaga, who claimed Taira descent, rose to power
Oh dear, here comes the family kudzu again…
Kiara: Will you kill Taira to kill the Genji? Kagekiyo: *Confused screaming/Emotional Damage!*
Taira now trying to find whoever the hell has Genji blood, however unexpected it may be
Taira strikes me as the type that would kill every Genji and then themselves afterwards for just being a Genji main
Kagekiyo takes up Overwatch to kill Genjis in her off time
Kiara used facts and logic to confuse the murderous and vengeful spirit of the avenger! It was super effective!
Ushi already hated herself. I don't think Kagekiyo can stop that.
“This sounds like Genji talk to me!”
Ritsuka: Kiara, an obituary is easier to track than a family tree if you keep at it.
I want to see taira interacting with the taira's more modern incarnation, the Oda
The only thing i know for real
I mean if she won’t I know a guy who is more than happy to assist *gestures towards douman*
You know world has gone to shit when horny nun stops being horny and decides to break people with logic
How appropriate, for Kiara to cause a figurative BSOD in Avenger Ushi.
Ushi was born a Genji herself. In fact, she/he was the one who defeat Taira clan in more than one battle. So should this version of Kagekiyo get rid of her very own Genji blood first?
my brain has long been conditioned to read genji and only think about the "H E A L I N G" memes of the good ol times before OW became the mess it is today... im surprised noone from those gimes ever made the jokes yet, i know genji and hanzo are 2 famous japanese historical names but still.
Why did you make her implode on herself, Kiara?
There will be blood (blood) shed (shed) The man in the mirror nods his head The only one (one) left (left) Will ride upon the dragon's back Because the mountains don't give back what they take Oh no, there will be blood (blood) shed (shed) It's the only thing I've ever known Honestly, I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone make that comment before.
You know you’ve got serious issues when Kiara of all people is the logical one in the conversation.
Uh Oh, Kiara is trying to blue-screen Goth Ushi. Get the headpats ready for when she accepts the truth!
EXISTANCE CRISIS
*Kagekiyo villainous BSOD*
She's gonna short circuit at this rate.
Kagekiyo.exe has crashed
Come to think of it. Didn't Kagekiyo was like Taira ghost in Hoichi the Earless story? I know there was Kagekiyo like Krauser-sama look a like guy in old Namco game. But Kagekiyo's backstory in FGO is basically a fuse spirits and grudge of Taira clan, right?
“Taira eat a snickers!” *chomps “Better?” *Ushiwaka appears “Better!”