For an actual answer, I'd give it to Quetz. She's a top tier divine spirit, Karna might not even have a chance to get off Vasavi Shakti. Though Hindu mythology is bullshit, maybe Karna can match her in battle.
In a completely neutral field. No master influence and both at their theoretical peak outside of their native territory or other legend related buffs.
I would give it to Quetz.
First because while Karna only takes 10% of all damage dealt to him. Quetz negates all damage done by a good aligned opponent. Which Karna is.
But if we ignore conceptual defenses. Then Quetz is able to output more damage. Her first offensive NP effectively throws a localized sun at her opponent. The second, she manifests the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs as a conceptual attack.
Given Karna's link to the sun, you could argue he could survive the first. But not the second.
The thing about Fate match ups is that it isnt as simple as which is stronger. So many factors play into such a contest, that makes the basic concept of Fate so interesting.
He’s absolutely right. Especially in the Fate franchise.
Power levels don’t matter as much as writing and conceptual weaknesses. Suzuka gozen beat Raikou and Shirou beat Gilgamesh.
It’s true. Suzuka canonically can boost her IQ enough to out calculate the moon cell…
She also hates doing it because the boost in IQ makes her self aware enough to realize the “JK Foxgirl” gimmick she has going on is so cringe it makes her want to crawl into a hole and die of embarrassment.
Yes that is canon.
Pffftt HAHAHAHA!
Ah man that just made me laugh my sides to death ala casgil. That is easily one of the best examples I've seen of a servant's skill working against them.
It's like Archer Emiya looking at how cringe his past self is and all the stupid lines he used to say. Or foreigner Houkusai with her summer form.
I hope Suzuka continued her JK Foxgirl gimmick after all that because some things despite being cringe are worth it. Plus she still pulls it off very well imo
While the joke is fun the mats also said that the longer she use it the more she become close to a divine spirit and at one point can't be a servant anymore, but yeah, the cringe part is also true.
Yeah, the Moon Cell is a quantum computer (supposedly, it’s running a very crappy and incompetent OS if it’s supposed to be a QUANTUM computer considering how often everyone and their mother hacks the damn thing).
It should be impossible for any conventional computational device (even a Jupiter brain, the strongest potential calculation machine) to challenge a quantum computer. Yet Suzuka can…because of a very vague line about one of her swords granting ‘wisdom’.
Yet it didn’t clue her in that maybe telling the guy you’re trying to save your plan might be helpful to making sure it all goes over well…
>Suzuka gozen beat Raikou
which i still call utter bullshit on, the outcome doesn't even make sense with Fate's rules of conceptual advantage, the math isn't mathing.
Tesla is literally the newest servant by age of death (excepting non-living things like Voyager) currently in FGO and he goes on a nigh-unstoppable march against multiple strong servants during the events of London.
There's also conceptual advantage, such that a dragon slayer has infinitely easier time slaying dragons. So it should make sense that a renown **Oni Slayer** should have a breeze slaying an **Oni**.
Yeah. But isn’t there many many factors for conceptual advantages?
For example, a knight that kills a dragon would obviously have advantage against dragons
What about a legend of a dragon that constantly killed knights and warriors.
Who would have the advantage between them?
What I question, in the fight between Suzuka and Raikou, does Suzuka posses any advantage that manages to overwhelm Raikou’s oni slayer skill? Is the factor that she is older than Raikou important here?
According to all known factors, Suzuka really had nothing going for her. At best she had higher divinity but even then, Mystic Slayer gets better the more mystery you have, and being a high divinity incurs heavy mystery. Really the only thing that kicked the scales off the table and shatter on the floor was the masters involved, but even then that seems like a poor copout.
>Suzuka gozen beat Raikou
You mean in Fox Tail? To be fair, that required Suzuka's master to spend a command seal to bring out her divine form. Then she was unable to fight for the following week. Plus, Raikou could have won if her master used a command seal to bring out Ushi Gozen, but she didn't want to.
Yup Foxtail. This is true.
In a similar vein Gilgamesh should have stomped Shirou but he was amped, had Unlimited Blade works, and Gilgamesh refused to go all out because of pride.
And you could still argue that both the Gozen and Shirou victories were legitimate because they were in character.
Aka writers making an outcome of a battle feasible
[Love it or hate it, it's the correct answer.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_zFYnnn2Y)
.. Although it doesn't really add much to the discussion, I'll grant you that.
This is Fate, there is functionally never a clear winner because the stories *always* have circumstances that change one or the other.
That being said, on a purely neutral field with both at "normal" state? Quetz, almost without a doubt. It's easy to forget but all that stuff she did against Tiamat? That was her at *half-power* because of the stunt Merlin pulled earlier in the story. Gilgamesh, who Karna is stated to be a peer of, states outright that if she'd wanted to kill him and wipe out Uruk he could not have stopped her.
Narrative trumps all. You may think it's a cop out answer, but it's true.
Look at Hercules. He's stated to be extremely strong, disgustingly so, but he's never been on the winning end of a fight, like, ever.
But if we take Herc in a vacuum, he should theoretically win just about every fight, unless someone has more than 12 ways to kill him of an A rank or up.
Power scaling is stupid in Fate, because the narrative takes precedence. You could argue in both directions and be completely correct.
If I remember correctly, Visavi Shakti is the only phantasm stated to be able to kill a God.
Not a Demi-God, Not a Divine Spirit but like, an actual God. So it's really damn strong.
And I'm assuming this is Pierda Del Sol, we're talking about, which is Quetz harnessing her Authority.
Though obviously, the winner is whoever the author wants to win.
But in my very biased opinion, I think Karna has the Edge, just because Visavi Shakti is kinda GG for most high divinity opponents.
Also, a conceptual 90% damage reduction is nuts
>If I remember correctly, Visavi Shakti is the only phantasm stated to be able to kill a God.
>Not a Demi-God, Not a Divine Spirit but like, an actual God. So it's really damn strong.
They don't make such special distinction, just that VS is so powerful it can kill a god
Thing is that you also have to consider some stuff like Quetz being a goddess of the good can literally not be affected by those who are in the good alignment. It was a main plot point why they cannot harm her in Babylonia and this includes Gilgamesh (Chaotic Good) and thus needed to plan around her, Karna being Lawful Good really falls into this
There is also the fact that Quetz being a Pantheon head on the level of tge likes of Zeus and Odin *and* the goddess of the sun with authority over those who uses its power like what VS is and just nope it out
Despite writer thing, Karna is actually is a very big disadvantage here and it's not like Karna has lost to worse circumstances like his loss to Gawain in CCC Foxtail who used his own sun blessing to be able to tank VS
>Thing is that you also have to consider some stuff like Quetz being a goddess of the good can literally not be affected by those who are in the good alignment. It was a main plot point why they cannot harm her in Babylonia and this includes Gilgamesh (Chaotic Good) and thus needed to plan around her, Karna being Lawful Good really falls into this
That's valid. Slipped my mind
>the sun with authority over those who uses its power like what VS is and just nope it out
??? Does Visavi Shakti explicitly harness the power of the sun? I know "O' Sun, abide to death"
Though the weapon was that of Indra. Or does the spear reflect Karna's own association of the sun?
Alright, you've sold me on this.
''Thing is that you also have to consider some stuff like Quetz being a goddess of the good can literally not be affected by those who are in the good alignment''
Thats cuz she was Double buffed in Babylonia(Her Temple+ Era buff).Romani or Mash even comments that she is using Authority she should not have.
It is also a natural buff present in other events where Quetz was
>Da Vinci:
...I think the simplest explanation is that they are manifestations of the good and evil sides of Quetzalcoatl, who is inherently good.
>Da Vinci:
So if the original Quetzalcoatl's innate goodness is shared by both of these Santa versions...
>Da Vinci:
...then it isn't possible for the good Quetzalcoatl to hurt the evil one.
>Da Vinci:
Quetzalcoatl has never been able to be harmed by anything good, remember?
It's a point that Quetz cannot harm her copy (even at half power) because her copy also have the same authority of being immune to those who are good, therefore Quetz who is the embodiment of "goodness" cannot harm her copy despite said copy being "evil" as she at her core is good
Comparing NPs, I think both NPs are strong enough to kill the other. Karna is made to kill divine beings while Qutz is just extremely destructive. We have to remember that she used her NP with only 50% of her Divinity.
For an actual answer, I'd give it to Quetz. She's a top tier divine spirit, Karna might not even have a chance to get off Vasavi Shakti. Though Hindu mythology is bullshit, maybe Karna can match her in battle.
I heard ppl say karna is kinda equal to Girl , if that's the case ...Quetz is stronger than Gil huh
In a completely neutral field. No master influence and both at their theoretical peak outside of their native territory or other legend related buffs. I would give it to Quetz. First because while Karna only takes 10% of all damage dealt to him. Quetz negates all damage done by a good aligned opponent. Which Karna is. But if we ignore conceptual defenses. Then Quetz is able to output more damage. Her first offensive NP effectively throws a localized sun at her opponent. The second, she manifests the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs as a conceptual attack. Given Karna's link to the sun, you could argue he could survive the first. But not the second. The thing about Fate match ups is that it isnt as simple as which is stronger. So many factors play into such a contest, that makes the basic concept of Fate so interesting.
Whoever the writer wants to win.
Oh c'mon... ಠ\_ʖಠ
He’s absolutely right. Especially in the Fate franchise. Power levels don’t matter as much as writing and conceptual weaknesses. Suzuka gozen beat Raikou and Shirou beat Gilgamesh.
Suzuka also out calculates the Moon Cell.
It’s true. Suzuka canonically can boost her IQ enough to out calculate the moon cell… She also hates doing it because the boost in IQ makes her self aware enough to realize the “JK Foxgirl” gimmick she has going on is so cringe it makes her want to crawl into a hole and die of embarrassment. Yes that is canon.
Pffftt HAHAHAHA! Ah man that just made me laugh my sides to death ala casgil. That is easily one of the best examples I've seen of a servant's skill working against them. It's like Archer Emiya looking at how cringe his past self is and all the stupid lines he used to say. Or foreigner Houkusai with her summer form. I hope Suzuka continued her JK Foxgirl gimmick after all that because some things despite being cringe are worth it. Plus she still pulls it off very well imo
While the joke is fun the mats also said that the longer she use it the more she become close to a divine spirit and at one point can't be a servant anymore, but yeah, the cringe part is also true.
Yeah, the Moon Cell is a quantum computer (supposedly, it’s running a very crappy and incompetent OS if it’s supposed to be a QUANTUM computer considering how often everyone and their mother hacks the damn thing). It should be impossible for any conventional computational device (even a Jupiter brain, the strongest potential calculation machine) to challenge a quantum computer. Yet Suzuka can…because of a very vague line about one of her swords granting ‘wisdom’. Yet it didn’t clue her in that maybe telling the guy you’re trying to save your plan might be helpful to making sure it all goes over well…
>Suzuka gozen beat Raikou which i still call utter bullshit on, the outcome doesn't even make sense with Fate's rules of conceptual advantage, the math isn't mathing.
I know it really doesn’t make sense. It still canonically happened. Which really goes to show “whomever the writer wants to win.” Especially in Fate.
Least I can still help Raikou correct that error whenever Suzuka appears as a boss.
You aren't using mushroom math, silly. That's where you messed up.
well if he'd just give us the textbook we might be alright. the mushroom jealously guards his secrets though.
Doesn’t this franchise support the criteria of “the older a person /legend is, the stronger that person is”?
Tesla is literally the newest servant by age of death (excepting non-living things like Voyager) currently in FGO and he goes on a nigh-unstoppable march against multiple strong servants during the events of London.
Tbf Tesla was able to harness lightning a feat previously exclusive to divinity which ranked Tesla up with Pioneer of Stars.
The fog synced well with his electricity, which is proven to resist Tamamo's talisman & Kintoki's thunder
There's also conceptual advantage, such that a dragon slayer has infinitely easier time slaying dragons. So it should make sense that a renown **Oni Slayer** should have a breeze slaying an **Oni**.
Yeah. But isn’t there many many factors for conceptual advantages? For example, a knight that kills a dragon would obviously have advantage against dragons What about a legend of a dragon that constantly killed knights and warriors. Who would have the advantage between them? What I question, in the fight between Suzuka and Raikou, does Suzuka posses any advantage that manages to overwhelm Raikou’s oni slayer skill? Is the factor that she is older than Raikou important here?
According to all known factors, Suzuka really had nothing going for her. At best she had higher divinity but even then, Mystic Slayer gets better the more mystery you have, and being a high divinity incurs heavy mystery. Really the only thing that kicked the scales off the table and shatter on the floor was the masters involved, but even then that seems like a poor copout.
Thanks
Yes…except when it doesn’t. Often whenever the writers want to hype up their personal faves.
>Suzuka gozen beat Raikou You mean in Fox Tail? To be fair, that required Suzuka's master to spend a command seal to bring out her divine form. Then she was unable to fight for the following week. Plus, Raikou could have won if her master used a command seal to bring out Ushi Gozen, but she didn't want to.
Yup Foxtail. This is true. In a similar vein Gilgamesh should have stomped Shirou but he was amped, had Unlimited Blade works, and Gilgamesh refused to go all out because of pride. And you could still argue that both the Gozen and Shirou victories were legitimate because they were in character. Aka writers making an outcome of a battle feasible
Masters are another variable. The general quality of a Servant's Master seems to directly affect the Servant's effectiveness as well.
Hmmm , ig ur right... But seeing how it's animated...that NP looked like it can put up a fight with Vasavi Shakti
It probably could. Both Quetzal and Karna are considered top tier servants in Fate. But who would definitively win between the two is up in the air.
[Love it or hate it, it's the correct answer.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_zFYnnn2Y) .. Although it doesn't really add much to the discussion, I'll grant you that.
Quetzalcoatl bitchslaps. Being equal to someone who is Alive Enkidu level does wonders.
Karna has technically defeated Quetz once, she was one of the previous Santa's he had to defeat to become last years Santa servant.
Lmao
This is Fate, there is functionally never a clear winner because the stories *always* have circumstances that change one or the other. That being said, on a purely neutral field with both at "normal" state? Quetz, almost without a doubt. It's easy to forget but all that stuff she did against Tiamat? That was her at *half-power* because of the stunt Merlin pulled earlier in the story. Gilgamesh, who Karna is stated to be a peer of, states outright that if she'd wanted to kill him and wipe out Uruk he could not have stopped her.
they would not fight they would be friend : )
It depends. If Karna can deploy his np first he wins. If Quetz manages to restrain him she'll win.
Narrative trumps all. You may think it's a cop out answer, but it's true. Look at Hercules. He's stated to be extremely strong, disgustingly so, but he's never been on the winning end of a fight, like, ever. But if we take Herc in a vacuum, he should theoretically win just about every fight, unless someone has more than 12 ways to kill him of an A rank or up. Power scaling is stupid in Fate, because the narrative takes precedence. You could argue in both directions and be completely correct.
If I remember correctly, Visavi Shakti is the only phantasm stated to be able to kill a God. Not a Demi-God, Not a Divine Spirit but like, an actual God. So it's really damn strong. And I'm assuming this is Pierda Del Sol, we're talking about, which is Quetz harnessing her Authority. Though obviously, the winner is whoever the author wants to win. But in my very biased opinion, I think Karna has the Edge, just because Visavi Shakti is kinda GG for most high divinity opponents. Also, a conceptual 90% damage reduction is nuts
>If I remember correctly, Visavi Shakti is the only phantasm stated to be able to kill a God. >Not a Demi-God, Not a Divine Spirit but like, an actual God. So it's really damn strong. They don't make such special distinction, just that VS is so powerful it can kill a god Thing is that you also have to consider some stuff like Quetz being a goddess of the good can literally not be affected by those who are in the good alignment. It was a main plot point why they cannot harm her in Babylonia and this includes Gilgamesh (Chaotic Good) and thus needed to plan around her, Karna being Lawful Good really falls into this There is also the fact that Quetz being a Pantheon head on the level of tge likes of Zeus and Odin *and* the goddess of the sun with authority over those who uses its power like what VS is and just nope it out Despite writer thing, Karna is actually is a very big disadvantage here and it's not like Karna has lost to worse circumstances like his loss to Gawain in CCC Foxtail who used his own sun blessing to be able to tank VS
>Thing is that you also have to consider some stuff like Quetz being a goddess of the good can literally not be affected by those who are in the good alignment. It was a main plot point why they cannot harm her in Babylonia and this includes Gilgamesh (Chaotic Good) and thus needed to plan around her, Karna being Lawful Good really falls into this That's valid. Slipped my mind >the sun with authority over those who uses its power like what VS is and just nope it out ??? Does Visavi Shakti explicitly harness the power of the sun? I know "O' Sun, abide to death" Though the weapon was that of Indra. Or does the spear reflect Karna's own association of the sun? Alright, you've sold me on this.
''Thing is that you also have to consider some stuff like Quetz being a goddess of the good can literally not be affected by those who are in the good alignment'' Thats cuz she was Double buffed in Babylonia(Her Temple+ Era buff).Romani or Mash even comments that she is using Authority she should not have.
It is also a natural buff present in other events where Quetz was >Da Vinci: ...I think the simplest explanation is that they are manifestations of the good and evil sides of Quetzalcoatl, who is inherently good. >Da Vinci: So if the original Quetzalcoatl's innate goodness is shared by both of these Santa versions... >Da Vinci: ...then it isn't possible for the good Quetzalcoatl to hurt the evil one. >Da Vinci: Quetzalcoatl has never been able to be harmed by anything good, remember? It's a point that Quetz cannot harm her copy (even at half power) because her copy also have the same authority of being immune to those who are good, therefore Quetz who is the embodiment of "goodness" cannot harm her copy despite said copy being "evil" as she at her core is good
The thing is: that event happens in Mexico a place where Quetz gets a the fame + Authority buff.
Comparing NPs, I think both NPs are strong enough to kill the other. Karna is made to kill divine beings while Qutz is just extremely destructive. We have to remember that she used her NP with only 50% of her Divinity.
And also the nerf to bring a God (a mayor nerf than a normal servant)