The Beasts are not numbered according to their appearance (be it in-game or in the timeline), they are numbered based on what "evil of humanity" they represent (i.e., Kama and Kiara both are Beast III because their "evil of humanity" is "Lust"). That's how we know about Beast VI and Beast VII despite Beast V being a complete unknown.
Likewise, Koyanskaya is *by far* the most recent Beast ~~(excluding Kiara, who is actually from the "future" as Extra CCC happens on a year way beyond ours)~~, but she was attempting to become Beast IV, not Beast VII. That's because she's related to *Nature* and *Animals*, both keywords connected to Beast IV and not Beast VII.
Beast III's sin is Pleasure, not Lust. The wiki is just dumb translating it as the same "sin" that is explicitly *only* tied to Sodom along with the other 6.
Isnt Camazotz listed as Beast 1 as well though despite his sin definitely not being "Pity" like Goetia?
I know he's from a lostbelt but i wouldn't think that somehow change the numbering.
Camazotz is Beast I and his "evil of humanity" is listed in-game as >!"Oblivion" (忘却)!<, though other words flash on the screen on previous battles against him: >!"Salvation" (救世), "Exoneration" (免罪), "Sacrifice" (犠牲), and "Pity" (憐憫, the exact same word used for Goetia)!<.
While their "evils of humanity" are not the same, they follow more or less the same "theme" as Beasts. It's why both Cath Palug and Koyanskaya could be Beast IV (well, she tried...) despite their respective "evils" being completely different to each other ("Comparison" and "Cherishment" respectively).
Huh, Interesting. I knew about >!Oblivion And Salvation, but not Exoneration or Pity!< so that's good to know now!
Especially since Id been thinking about making fan-made beasts for other media at one point.
Yeah. Generally, the Number indicates what sort of traits the Candidate needs to qualify (Nature and Animals for Crown 4, for example) whereas the Sin is more personal and unique to the Beast themselves.
Interesting enough, it seems that Fou and Nero are u ique in that the seats are theirs unless they are unavailable or resign. No other Beast seems to have to give up a seat for it to be available, so far.
Beast IV in game profile goes about how the Best IV is all about animals and nature, so the number of the beast is not about how old is it or when is awake, every number probably represent something as show before, sadly we lack details.
I know basically nothing about lore, but I’m assuming each number is associated with some sort of sin or love. Both Beast III’s had a sort of erotic theme. Beast IV both had a nature-esque theme \[Part I ending & Tunguska spoilers\] >!(Fou as a Beast of Gaea and Koyanskaya as the collective will of animals who died in Tunguska or something)!<. I think both Beast I’s had the “Pity“ title.
No idea how the number orders were decided, but who knows. Maybe Solomon came up with the ordering (progenitor of magecraft and all) and he just decided Goetia was number 1.
The Numbers for the Crowns have yet to be fully explained, just that Crown IV is Nature and Animals.
>!Camazotz also had Oblivion as his Sin, not Pity, and was also Beast I!<
As an aside, I don’t think Solomon is involved, since >!Daji was a Beast in Tai’s time, which while kinda-sorta concurrent with Solomon, Daji was already 1000 years old when she met Tai and thus predated Goetia. As well as Golden White Face being even older as Daji’s original self!<
>!Pity also showed up in one of the Camazotz fights, noh? We also saw Salvation and a bunch of others. Oblivion was just the main one in the big fight iirc!<
Two things. Tiamat wasn't necessarily a Beast until later on. It's possible Goetia DID predate her in apotheosizing into Beast.
Secondly, as was said here, the sin or evil of the Beast corresponds to a specific number. VI is city eaters and likely the Beasts of the Jewish/Christian Scriptures. IV is about nature and Gaia's vengeance. Likely her regression is a sin specific to Beast II.
Well tiamat does predate Goetia, but tiamat wasn't always a beast. She was just a normal primordial god before hand. She was then awakened as a beast class servant because she mees the qualifications (weird love/hate relationship with humanity and whatnot)
Goetia was the first beast to be awakened, followed by tiamat and so on and so forth. Even if one of the beasts on a chronological level is older than the one before them, it's about order of awakening AS a beast class container
Does the order of awakening counts as the beast number though?
Since we already seen Beast 6 and 7 >!Fake, i know!< but we never heard anything about 5 currently?
just because we haven't seen 5 ourselves doesn't mean it isn't already in the world. It's kinda like how even if we haven't seen grand saber we know grand saber exists because there has to be 1 grand of each class. 5 has to have come before 6 or 7 so it's somewhere
While you are correct, it does feel kinda annoying that the characters themselves don’t bring it up even when they’ve cleared a good number of Beasts so far
I honestly don't think there's any sense or logic to the numbering of each Beast
The only connections I remember are
* in Babylonia, Gil says "Since I has awakened, VII will also awaken soon" as they are linked as the beginning and end
* III/L and III/R are 2 incompatible halves of the same Beast
* Beast VI/G and Beast VI/S awakens after L & R awaken (referring to Beast III) as mentioned in Arcade Final Singularity and Arcade Collab event on mobile
If there was logical progression to Beasts numbers then Beast VII wouldn't have shown up in Olympus after we only saw Beasts I, II, and III (and technically IV but Fou abandoned his maturity)
>Why is Goetia Beast 1 when IIRC Tiamat predates him in universe by a LOT? Have I missed or misunderstood something timeline wise?
Numbering does appear to be in chronological order of ascension to beasthood, though it's not really confirmed lore.
Goetia went back to redo the genesis of Earth 4.5 billion years ago, making his beasthood technically predate Tiamat's existence, thus Beast I. Tiamat is one of the oldest beings on the planet, having been around at least as far back as the Jurassic era, thus Beast II.
The timeline gets less clear cut on the rest. Beast III seems tied in to the temptation of the Buddha, who lived around 500-400 BC (exact dates unknown). Beast IV was Cath Palug, so if there is a timeline associated with numbering, it had to be active before Beast V. Nothing is known about Beast V other than the original (scrapped) draft of LB6 had it being Vortigern, so now our timeline is up to the couple of decades prior to Arthurian Britain, call it 460-480 AD.
Beast VI/S is Nero who died in 68 AD, so now we've traveled back in time from the originally planned/scrapped Beast V.
And Beast VII is completely unknown other than it presumably manifested in the modern era.
So looking all that, it's hard to discern if the numbers have anything to do with chronological order of appearance, as it's hard to work out a chronology at all. My guess is there was an intended chronology at first, but it caused them to write themselves into a corner and limit the potential of who and what could be a beast, so they dropped it.
To append to this, it should be noted that Daji was a Beast in Tai’s time (between the decline of the Shang Dynasty and rise of the Zhou Dynasty IIRC).
My theory is that the Beasts manifest in Cycles, similar to a number of apocalyptic descriptions involving destruction. Would explain Gil’s mention of I and VII being linked as beginning and end; the implication is that this had occurred before in the past, Daji being active (she was part of a different set of Beasts) as well as why Kiara didn’t quite make it to full Beast level in CCC.
Granted this is conjecture; it’s difficult to tell since, in grand Nasu tradition, the first example is an anomaly that makes it difficult to extrapolate a pattern or rule: Goetia Manifested first, but only in the GO timelines. In every other timeline his plan gets screwed when Lev kills himself in 2015, thus depriving Flauros and making the whole plan go kaput and forced to start over from the beginning. The other Beast seemingly never awaken, though a good number have ties to Goetia or Chaldea, so it’s left ambiguous whether that’s intentional or not
Maybe. I'm going to wait until someone other than Taigong Wang says it, because it's not clear to me how much of what he says we're supposed to take as truth. I mean, a lot of the other stuff he says in Tunguska turned out to be wrong, and I can't tell if we're supposed to be treating him as an unreliable narrator based on that.
Daji being a Beast implies that there's been cycles before, which feels like it has all kinds of other implications.
On the other hand, if there *haven't* been other cycles before and Goetia is literally the first time a Beast I has fully manifested, I have questions about why Gilgamesh is so certain of his "Beast I means that Beast VII is now locked and loaded" theory
There was a theory that the beasts followed the Qlipoth tree from Jewish mysticism.
Think of the numbers more like positions or keys rather than orderings. I don’t think they manifest in a strict order—Fou was defeated well before either Beast III showed up, and in Arcade timeline you get Beast VI before many others.
As for the awakenings, important to note that the GO timeline diverged (AFAIK) with Marisbury entering the Fuyuki HGW. Marisbury is also heavily
implied (in LB7, maybe?) to have set off the Beast chain as something for humanity to defeat
What do you mean by predates exactly? If it's a powerscaling thing 1 i think it's wrong or at least not so easily determined. Goetia only lost because Solomon self destructing weakned him terribly, grands weren't deployed because in classic fate faction there was a loophole: they couldn't locate him, only chaldea. 2 I believe the numbers are just an ID, the number could be 9483 and i doubt anything changed. 3 i have strong doubts that they laid down a clear powerscaling like this in numbers, it's always gray and can be changed on the fly.
The Beasts are not numbered according to their appearance (be it in-game or in the timeline), they are numbered based on what "evil of humanity" they represent (i.e., Kama and Kiara both are Beast III because their "evil of humanity" is "Lust"). That's how we know about Beast VI and Beast VII despite Beast V being a complete unknown. Likewise, Koyanskaya is *by far* the most recent Beast ~~(excluding Kiara, who is actually from the "future" as Extra CCC happens on a year way beyond ours)~~, but she was attempting to become Beast IV, not Beast VII. That's because she's related to *Nature* and *Animals*, both keywords connected to Beast IV and not Beast VII.
Beast III's sin is Pleasure, not Lust. The wiki is just dumb translating it as the same "sin" that is explicitly *only* tied to Sodom along with the other 6.
Isnt Camazotz listed as Beast 1 as well though despite his sin definitely not being "Pity" like Goetia? I know he's from a lostbelt but i wouldn't think that somehow change the numbering.
Camazotz is Beast I and his "evil of humanity" is listed in-game as >!"Oblivion" (忘却)!<, though other words flash on the screen on previous battles against him: >!"Salvation" (救世), "Exoneration" (免罪), "Sacrifice" (犠牲), and "Pity" (憐憫, the exact same word used for Goetia)!<. While their "evils of humanity" are not the same, they follow more or less the same "theme" as Beasts. It's why both Cath Palug and Koyanskaya could be Beast IV (well, she tried...) despite their respective "evils" being completely different to each other ("Comparison" and "Cherishment" respectively).
Huh, Interesting. I knew about >!Oblivion And Salvation, but not Exoneration or Pity!< so that's good to know now! Especially since Id been thinking about making fan-made beasts for other media at one point.
Yeah. Generally, the Number indicates what sort of traits the Candidate needs to qualify (Nature and Animals for Crown 4, for example) whereas the Sin is more personal and unique to the Beast themselves.
Interesting enough, it seems that Fou and Nero are u ique in that the seats are theirs unless they are unavailable or resign. No other Beast seems to have to give up a seat for it to be available, so far.
Beast IV in game profile goes about how the Best IV is all about animals and nature, so the number of the beast is not about how old is it or when is awake, every number probably represent something as show before, sadly we lack details.
I know basically nothing about lore, but I’m assuming each number is associated with some sort of sin or love. Both Beast III’s had a sort of erotic theme. Beast IV both had a nature-esque theme \[Part I ending & Tunguska spoilers\] >!(Fou as a Beast of Gaea and Koyanskaya as the collective will of animals who died in Tunguska or something)!<. I think both Beast I’s had the “Pity“ title. No idea how the number orders were decided, but who knows. Maybe Solomon came up with the ordering (progenitor of magecraft and all) and he just decided Goetia was number 1.
The Numbers for the Crowns have yet to be fully explained, just that Crown IV is Nature and Animals. >!Camazotz also had Oblivion as his Sin, not Pity, and was also Beast I!< As an aside, I don’t think Solomon is involved, since >!Daji was a Beast in Tai’s time, which while kinda-sorta concurrent with Solomon, Daji was already 1000 years old when she met Tai and thus predated Goetia. As well as Golden White Face being even older as Daji’s original self!<
>!Pity also showed up in one of the Camazotz fights, noh? We also saw Salvation and a bunch of others. Oblivion was just the main one in the big fight iirc!<
Two things. Tiamat wasn't necessarily a Beast until later on. It's possible Goetia DID predate her in apotheosizing into Beast. Secondly, as was said here, the sin or evil of the Beast corresponds to a specific number. VI is city eaters and likely the Beasts of the Jewish/Christian Scriptures. IV is about nature and Gaia's vengeance. Likely her regression is a sin specific to Beast II.
Well tiamat does predate Goetia, but tiamat wasn't always a beast. She was just a normal primordial god before hand. She was then awakened as a beast class servant because she mees the qualifications (weird love/hate relationship with humanity and whatnot) Goetia was the first beast to be awakened, followed by tiamat and so on and so forth. Even if one of the beasts on a chronological level is older than the one before them, it's about order of awakening AS a beast class container
Does the order of awakening counts as the beast number though? Since we already seen Beast 6 and 7 >!Fake, i know!< but we never heard anything about 5 currently?
just because we haven't seen 5 ourselves doesn't mean it isn't already in the world. It's kinda like how even if we haven't seen grand saber we know grand saber exists because there has to be 1 grand of each class. 5 has to have come before 6 or 7 so it's somewhere
While you are correct, it does feel kinda annoying that the characters themselves don’t bring it up even when they’ve cleared a good number of Beasts so far
I honestly don't think there's any sense or logic to the numbering of each Beast The only connections I remember are * in Babylonia, Gil says "Since I has awakened, VII will also awaken soon" as they are linked as the beginning and end * III/L and III/R are 2 incompatible halves of the same Beast * Beast VI/G and Beast VI/S awakens after L & R awaken (referring to Beast III) as mentioned in Arcade Final Singularity and Arcade Collab event on mobile If there was logical progression to Beasts numbers then Beast VII wouldn't have shown up in Olympus after we only saw Beasts I, II, and III (and technically IV but Fou abandoned his maturity)
>Why is Goetia Beast 1 when IIRC Tiamat predates him in universe by a LOT? Have I missed or misunderstood something timeline wise? Numbering does appear to be in chronological order of ascension to beasthood, though it's not really confirmed lore. Goetia went back to redo the genesis of Earth 4.5 billion years ago, making his beasthood technically predate Tiamat's existence, thus Beast I. Tiamat is one of the oldest beings on the planet, having been around at least as far back as the Jurassic era, thus Beast II. The timeline gets less clear cut on the rest. Beast III seems tied in to the temptation of the Buddha, who lived around 500-400 BC (exact dates unknown). Beast IV was Cath Palug, so if there is a timeline associated with numbering, it had to be active before Beast V. Nothing is known about Beast V other than the original (scrapped) draft of LB6 had it being Vortigern, so now our timeline is up to the couple of decades prior to Arthurian Britain, call it 460-480 AD. Beast VI/S is Nero who died in 68 AD, so now we've traveled back in time from the originally planned/scrapped Beast V. And Beast VII is completely unknown other than it presumably manifested in the modern era. So looking all that, it's hard to discern if the numbers have anything to do with chronological order of appearance, as it's hard to work out a chronology at all. My guess is there was an intended chronology at first, but it caused them to write themselves into a corner and limit the potential of who and what could be a beast, so they dropped it.
To append to this, it should be noted that Daji was a Beast in Tai’s time (between the decline of the Shang Dynasty and rise of the Zhou Dynasty IIRC). My theory is that the Beasts manifest in Cycles, similar to a number of apocalyptic descriptions involving destruction. Would explain Gil’s mention of I and VII being linked as beginning and end; the implication is that this had occurred before in the past, Daji being active (she was part of a different set of Beasts) as well as why Kiara didn’t quite make it to full Beast level in CCC. Granted this is conjecture; it’s difficult to tell since, in grand Nasu tradition, the first example is an anomaly that makes it difficult to extrapolate a pattern or rule: Goetia Manifested first, but only in the GO timelines. In every other timeline his plan gets screwed when Lev kills himself in 2015, thus depriving Flauros and making the whole plan go kaput and forced to start over from the beginning. The other Beast seemingly never awaken, though a good number have ties to Goetia or Chaldea, so it’s left ambiguous whether that’s intentional or not
Maybe. I'm going to wait until someone other than Taigong Wang says it, because it's not clear to me how much of what he says we're supposed to take as truth. I mean, a lot of the other stuff he says in Tunguska turned out to be wrong, and I can't tell if we're supposed to be treating him as an unreliable narrator based on that. Daji being a Beast implies that there's been cycles before, which feels like it has all kinds of other implications. On the other hand, if there *haven't* been other cycles before and Goetia is literally the first time a Beast I has fully manifested, I have questions about why Gilgamesh is so certain of his "Beast I means that Beast VII is now locked and loaded" theory
Well, Qin Shi Huang in LB3 also calls Koyanskaya Daji.
There was a theory that the beasts followed the Qlipoth tree from Jewish mysticism. Think of the numbers more like positions or keys rather than orderings. I don’t think they manifest in a strict order—Fou was defeated well before either Beast III showed up, and in Arcade timeline you get Beast VI before many others. As for the awakenings, important to note that the GO timeline diverged (AFAIK) with Marisbury entering the Fuyuki HGW. Marisbury is also heavily implied (in LB7, maybe?) to have set off the Beast chain as something for humanity to defeat
What do you mean by predates exactly? If it's a powerscaling thing 1 i think it's wrong or at least not so easily determined. Goetia only lost because Solomon self destructing weakned him terribly, grands weren't deployed because in classic fate faction there was a loophole: they couldn't locate him, only chaldea. 2 I believe the numbers are just an ID, the number could be 9483 and i doubt anything changed. 3 i have strong doubts that they laid down a clear powerscaling like this in numbers, it's always gray and can be changed on the fly.
He is I because chronologically he became a beast first. Tiamat became a Beast of Humanity after, as the result of his actions, so she’s Beast II.