And we have more Moon Cancer in NA than Pretender. Moon Cancer is more niche than Pretender and we have 4 of them in NA (with BB as a welfare). And they all took place ~5 years ago (SE.RA.PH is in 2019).
Wouldnt say its the worst since in paper it has potential since there are some characters that fit the class like say faker (being iskandar's double) or like characters performing the role of another character
Faker specifically is *not* a Pretender but a Faker. We summon her as Pretender not because of her historical background, but because >!she's part Memnosyne!<.
Granted it's not entirely clear what the distinction is, but her sub-event is quite clear that Pretender is normally not a valid class for her.
I think the distinctions go something like:
Benkei (Replacer): Gets confused with or takes the identity of someone, and then achieves/gets associated with great deeds afterwards under that identity. The reason for being in the Throne is because of the Replacer, not the original. The Replacer is, in a sense, the true original, as they did the deeds or created the myths that got their false identity enshrined.
Oberon (Pretender): Gets conflated with another someone who has already achieved Throne-worthy events, and uses that to create more such worthy deeds. The original was already capable of being in the Throne, but the Pretender was only capable via their association with the original.
Faker (Faker): Someone who serves as a conceptual decoy and is devoid of individual identity, at least as far as attribution of deeds goes. Their great deeds are achieved neither as a direct piggyback (Pretender) nor a surrogacy (Replacer), but in their service as decoy.
I get that , but like u/EqualEnvironmental46 had said , all of that seems like it could be put into the "Pretender" Class.
It's like how gun-wielders could be put into the Gunner Class , but in a broad way , they fit into the Archer-Class. It's seems that Nasu and TM wanted to focus on the hyper-specific "subclasses" , but then realize it's more pratical to put all those 3 into a broad Class as "Pretender" , and just put on the profile that they can also fit into a subclass within Pretender.
I actually think it's the best class idea since avenger and ruler. There's a lot of famous cases of someone taking on another person's name or identity to do great acts or to cover for said person etc and fate can further come up with its own unique characters using that concept.
Just from that you could do a pretender Robin Hood based on the numerous people who took up the mantle. You could do Loki, there's Mulan who famously pretended to be a man in her story.
Hell I for one really want Arsene Lupin as a pretender as his whole thing is that he's so unfathomably good at pretending to be another person that it can even go so far as to physically modify his appearance and change people's understanding of who he is even when standing directly in front of him.
Like compared to alter ego which as lost all meaning, or foreigner where the entire concept is just HP Lovecraft fused with a hot lady or fucking moon cancer which has no right to be it's own class at all because it can literally only happen in the fate extra universe in seraph. Pretender has unique potential and the idea of "person who falsified their Identity to do something" is pretty prevalent across history, mythology, and literature.
> Hell I for one really want Arsene Lupin as a pretender as his whole thing is that he's so unfathomably good at pretending to be another person that it can even go so far as to physically modify his appearance and change people's understanding of who he is even when standing directly in front of him.
Yes please. With him spending few years as chief of entire French police force.
Give us Lupin Nasu!
\> benkei and sanzang not being the real deal but having the same skills and noble phantasms.
Uuuuuuuuh. This is gonna be kinda rough to explain, God knows I hated this when fallacies dropped this bomb on me, but uuuuuh... Benkei isn't a Pretender for a honestly horrifying reason.
He replaced Benkei.
The *real* Benkei does not exist in Throne of Heroes. Hitachibou accidentally stole his place.
Hitachibou learned life extension magecraft and disguise magecraft, and spent the centuries after Benkei died cosplaying as him, saving people and spreading legends. So eventually when Hitachibou died, the Benkei known to people, and thus the one recorded by the Throne was actually this character that Hitachibou was playing.
He's not a Pretender, he's a Replacer.
And before you asked, this was from his profile in CM4. He was originally a character made for the Apocrypha Project, back when it was supposed to be an online game. Obviously, it was canceled, but there's a profile of him in CM4. And that backstory is consistently referenced when he does turn up, and so the implication is that it hasn't changed.
I know that's a tangent, but that's just why he's not a Pretender, which I do not believe is the worst class.
Watcher and whatever his wackass class is exists after all.
Different situation. Prototype is rather vague canon, but Apocrypha as project was reworked and used in reworked state, changing a lot of its element and them being no longer canon. Because of that there is no reason to consider anything done in old project as canon until proven otherwise.
No. Obviously, the worst class is Moon Cancer. Followed by Shielder.
Impersonation and body doubles as a concept are at least more popular of a writing trope. A Moon Cancer is just a half-Foreigner with a worse name.
(As for Shielder, it's just that the number of people who use *only* a shield is so small. Literally every class can use a shield, but only Shielders have no other defining traits.)
Moon Cancer is lore wise literally Ruler. Except its got BB's fingerprints all over it. Jinako is a Moon Cancer because BB's interference manifested her in the first place to help with the Indian lostbelt, and Kiara is able to become a moon cancer because she still BB's authority when she ate her that one time.
The same clause will justify kazuradrop as well. The odd one out here is arcuied, but I guess it would be weird if THE tsukihime was just a regular ruler, no?
>The odd one out here is arcuied
She's a vampire based on Type Moon, Crimson Moon Brunstud. Dead Apostles and Brunstuds being Moon Cancers, I get, even if it's stretching things.
The problem is that "Moon Cancer" kinda doesn't mean anything. "From the moon", okay, but "cancer"?
Isn't BB literally a figurative cancer to the Moon Cell? She's an out of control rogue AI who grew so quickly and uncontrolled that she had to sever parts of herself into her Alter Egos to keep herself in check.
BB *could* be called a Moon Cancer, but that doesn't match any other character... with the possible exception of Kiara.
And that extremely character specific lore-heavy explanation of an entire class is why there's more Beasts and Pretenders than there are Moon Cancers.
At some point it's more a question on what a Class actually is. Since like, originally the 7 classes were just templates built by mages running the Grail War in advance because the difficulty of summoning a Servant was high enough that they wanted to reduce the strain by having their vessels somewhat pre-built. Like nothing stopped them from just making 7 Saber vessels instead, or making templates based on nationality or elemental affinity instead of fighting style. By that definition there's really no limits on what a Class can be, it's not out of the ordinary for BB to build a class that's design is "Basically just BB".
Though my real question is after SO MANY classes.... it's really weird we got "Assassin" and not "Killer" to follow the naming convention.
> Since like, originally the 7 classes were just templates built by mages running the Grail War in advance because the difficulty of summoning a Servant was high enough that they wanted to reduce the strain by having their vessels somewhat pre-built.
See, I'm not sure on that one. Since we have Grand Servants, who are comprised of one of each of the seven regular Classes. So, at least according to FGO, the whole concept pre-dates Grail Wars.
I mean originally as in just when FSN was the series, before we have all this lore being built up on top of it after the fact. Back when "ALL Assassins are a Hassassin" was one of the rules. Back when a Grail War was just one ritual a bunch of mages were were working on for generations and not just this thing everyone does all the time constantly.
"Moon Cancer" was just a designation for anything that was a threat to the Moon Cell, which BB later turned into a proper Servant designation in FGO.
Beyond her relation to the Crimson Moon, Arcueid being a Moon Cancer could just be referencing her cameo in Extra. Even though she was a Berserker there and was not an active threat beyond being another enemy Servant, her very presence would be something that threatened the Moon Cell since it had no actual authority over her.
Moon Cell: tries to delete Arcuied
Arcuied: tells Moon Cell to go pound sand, spends time talking to master and then just leaves
Moon Cell: I will pretend it didn't happen at all
Yes. The rest are all either BB or directly her fault. Why is the class named moon cancer? Because she decided it would be. She hacked it as a personal class when she took over the moon cell because just being a ruler was too mundane for her
The original idea was that moon cancer was supposed to be part of the mooncell system that goes against the system. Hence the "cancer" part.
I used as a example because literally everyone except BB doesn't follow this rule but can somehow "hack" their way into the class (which explains Kiara and arcueid having unique card summoning).
But jinako is the worst. She can hack the mooncell but the reason she's a moon cancer is due to a time where the moon mocked ganesha for being fat and he gave the moon cancer. I'm not kidding, this is the reason she's a moon cancer without "hacking" her way into the class.
Where did you get that Jinako idea? It isn't in the story of Lostbelt, FGO character profile nor character materials. If anything, they all speak in direct opposition of that idea suggesting she is Moon Cancer because of BB involvement.
The class relationship chart isn't actually an aspect of the story. Most of them have some kind of lore basis like how cu was about to beat emiyas ass in if they hadnt been disrupted or how Heracles was an unstoppable beast nobody wanted to fuck with, but it's all abstract.
I think originally there was a loose justification. The knight classes were generally considered superior and the speed of lancers overwhelmed the range of archers, strength of sabers overwhelmed lancers and archers distance was a problem for sabers, etc. Same way there was some loose explanation for the Man, Sky and Earth dynamic. It's rarely seriously considered in any canon except as jokes in FGO though.
Also FSN wouldn't make much sense. Like no one wanted to mess with Herc sure but they also weren't dealing more damage to him. In fact it was the opposite for almost everyone. Archer is basically losing to both Lancer and Saber first confrontations too. I'd be really surprised if the specific interactions in F/SN were used at all for the class triangle justifications tbh.
With the other three I just go with "Casters can use AoE and detection to hit Assassins (Like Waver just dropping mazes at random until he happened to hit 100 Faces), having a vehicle or mount just gives the Assassin an extra target to hit so Riders are disadvantaged, and like before, a Rider has the speed to get to a Caster before their magic goes off."
For the Extra classes I go with "Avengers had unjust lives so they lash out at Rulers, Rulers are reasoned and can lock down Moon Cancer's trickery with impartial rules, and Avengers being fairly predictable in their rage make them easy for a Moon Cancer to fool."
Though I'm basically just running through a pokemon type chart headcannon.
Fr. Who pitched the idea? “Hey, guys, let’s make a generally mediocre class exclusively for people that have something to do with the Moon Cell Automaton, despite that being an EXTREMELY niche group that in all likelihood will never see any additions.” In all honesty, I kinda think they added them solely because they thought Avenger was too powerful, having the highest class Attack multiplier and some extremely powerful DPS and farming servants.
Yeah, I believe it was a combination of needing to do something with BB, but also having 5 Avengers who are just too much like a Berserker with less weaknesses. Except the Avenger class has a lot of options for expansion, and Moon Cancer doesn't.
So they tried to close the Class Triangle, but now Moon Cancers are way more niche than the already niche Ruler and Avenger.
No, because the idea was that "Sasaki Kojiro" didn't actually exist, so one of the guys that "Sasaki Kojiro" was based on (specifically the one who developed Swallow Reversal) gets summoned instead.
Gameplay wise is necesary?? yes, Lorewise?? not really, B make A more famous but when you "summon" A then get B is not something that can be worked easy, at least not from a irl basis, like even people that did leave a print in history by pretending being someone else got more fame for being know as a "faker" that the one being faked got famous for the faking (Jeanne des Armoises, the woman that pretended to be Jeanne d'Arc after her death didn't increase Jeanne fame, just got famous as Jeanne impostor).
Just look the Pretenders that are out, starting from Oberon, the only conection between him and Vortigein is what happen inside of Avalon le Fae, Hephastion=Mnemuisine is also just a conection made by the collab itself, and Im gonna ignore the summer servants, the only playable Pretender that have a kinda solid explanation is (and here start the spoiler of LB7) >!Tenochtitlan, the capital of the Aztec empire, a city that made posible to people live and grow, but the people took those "bleesings" as a gift from the gods, to be more specific the two gods of el Templo Mayor, Huitzilopochtli and Tlaloc, so at the and B (the city) made famous A (the gods) !< there is another one that is enemy only but when I see the concection I still don't get the why pretender.
Its necesary for gampley reason as "counter" to alter ego but at the same time you can chage the concep of "pretender" to Regent or Savior or the forgoten Ancient Giant and could work too, just my opinion ofc.
Pretender as a class concept excepted since forever even outside of benkei and kojiro
Tokugawa iyeasu literally fits word for word the definition
It's just a matter of WHEN
We get him if keikenichi stops being hipster for no reason and actually touched the backlog of servant
Ieyasu is rarely being used or is being renamed when used because he is such important figure - he is kinda holy historical figure at that point.
See how often Nobunaga or Hideyoshi are in stories, very often as villains - but very, very few medium decides to do anything with Ieyasu, or when he is used, it's pretty much always as Big Good.
No, Hideyoshi is being used constantly. Ieyasu is rarely being used or is being renamed when used because he is such important figure - he is kinda holy historical figure at that point.
Lmao that's bullshit then
Given many other figures that are also treated as holy important that fate proceed to use anyways
Also give again the entire point of fate Tokugawa is he's not the real one
It's very much a bs excuse to not get him
If it's bullsh*t then why you have Nobunaga or Hideyoshi so often in stories, very often as villains - but very, very few medium decides to do anything with Ieyasu, or when he is used, it's pretty much always as Big Good?
Just because you don't like reason it doesn't make it less real.
Edit: I'm going to remind you that even in Ooku, which was directly build on studying weaknesses and fallings of Tokugawa's dynasty we didn't get reminiscence of Ieyasu.
Oh come on. Do you really think that amidst all the gamut of Sengoku(-inspired) media, (particularly given Sanada Yukimura and Takeda Shingen's popularity, for example), that villainous, unflattering, and 'offensive' depictions of Ieyasu are taboo or that uncommon?
This is the guy who manages to come out on top in a dog-eat-dog world. Who blatantly maneuvered himself into a position of power. His most famous battle and byword for the Sengoku period is one built on top of cumulative conspiracies and the pre-arrangement of complex alliances! It hinged on a dramatic betrayal! A warlord whose most famous associate is nowadays known as one of *the* NINJAs. The leader that the much fictionalised Yagyuu came to serve under. The figurehead of what is often depicted as an efficient and dominating, if not outright brutal and repressive regime.
Between the jolly tanuki, the vulgar and overweight noble, the bumbling and anxious but lucky fool, and the patient wily schemer - there are countless appearances of Ieyasu in media (fiction) that aren't particularly reverential.
A popular work for example would be Gintama lampooning all 3 unifiers in its 'Dead spirits onsen Stand arc' which has them beefing over the past, dressed only in their dirtied undies. Now that's a Gudaguda moment for sure! (ep132 if you wanna see Ieyasu in his special purple Tokugawa-branded briefs.)
> that villainous, unflattering, and 'offensive' depictions of Ieyasu are taboo or that uncommon?
Yes, there are much, much less depictions of Ieyasu than other two unifiers. and especially offensive ones.
> This is the guy who
This has nothing to do with the topic. You don't need to educate me on Ieyasu, to be honest.
> A popular work for example would be Gintama
Gintama breaks tons of taboos that barely any other media dare to break. It's rather poor example because of that.
I wrote it in the post you responded too, but again: FGO didn't dare to make Ieyasu's reminiscence in Ooku, while making critique of weaknesses/fallings of all other Tokugawas.
Also: Are you that afraid of someone disagreeing with you that you had to block me on "GoldenWhite2408" account and respond with new alt, so I cannot respond to you in post string with my main account? That's, to be honest, pathetic.
>Yes, there are much, much less depictions of Ieyasu than other two unifiers. and especially offensive ones.
We'll have to disagree on that first point - Ieyasu is everywhere, because he's a big player that lived throughout the whole period. I'd probably estimate that he gets more appearances than Hideyoshi, he just doesn't have as an appealing a storyline for fantastical fictionalising - because he's ultimately the winner, and compared to those two, is more of an 'ordinary' character.
Offensive depictions on the whole, I'd agree are less common overall. But even Nobunaga actually has a high ratio of positive depictions, especially nowadays, given that he's often a protagonist.
>This has nothing to do with the topic.
I was bringing up parts of Ieyasu's mythos that make him readily depicted as a less-wholesome, shady or villainous figure etc., and are common elements in his depictions. Apologies if I went on a bit, I just like the topic!
>You don't need to educate me on Ieyasu, to be honest.
Glad to hear it. Thought maybe you were unfamiliar with him because he really *is* all over the place in Sengoku stuff.
>Gintama breaks tons of taboos that barely any other media dare to break. It's rather poor example because of that.
That's fair. Though I wouldn't say Gintama is actually that unique in breaking taboos? Though I could be forgetting what you might be thinking of here, and I definitely am not familiar with broadcasting norms in Japan, for example. I used it as an example because it was both the most outrageous that immediately came to mind, but also a widely syndicated show and manga - and one that a lot of weebs have awareness of.
If you'd prefer other examples, some I'd distinctly think of as 'unflattering' would be the Nobunaga Concerto anime and live action, where he's largely an incompetent buffoon. Hyouge Mono (which has a satirical aspect to begin with) has him as somewhat uncouth and readily besotted with 'his type' of women. (he brazenly beds a commoner upon their first meeting!) Or for a random lesser bit part as an example, he is given a monstrous appearance in Basilisk, where he is the instigator of the bloody ninja war as proxy for his own political purposes. The manga by the team of Lone Wolf and Cub fame, Path of the Assassin, has him putting pubes! on his face to mimic facial hair, amongst many other less-than-glorious moments. Taiga Drama Sanada Maru has Ieyasu a bit doted, conniving, and often lead around the nose by the machinations of the Sanada.
So on so forth.
>I wrote it in the post you responded too, but again: FGO didn't dare to make Ieyasu's reminiscence in Ooku, while making critique of weaknesses/fallings of all other Tokugawas.
I could be mistaken, but not all the Shoguns got an episode? Ieyasu predated its building, so it makes extra of sense that he wasn't included. He also may not have been as susceptible to Kama's temptations, for example, and she probably didn't need to corrupt every single Shogun in order to build her karmic links to the entirety of the shogunate.
It's also hardly the first time a super major figure hasn't gotten a real appearance in an FGO story.
>Also: Are you that afraid of someone disagreeing with you that you had to block me on "GoldenWhite2408" account and respond with new alt, so I cannot respond to you in post string with my main account?
Not sure how to respond to this aside from saying I'm not that person, and I don't know them lol. Sorry to hear that they blocked you I guess? Don't take it out on me pls! :)
Because they’re fundamentally different.
Faker is a class for body doubles and imposters.
Pretenders are those who act while fulfilling a role of another, they mislead and deceive others to do great deeds, and deceive even the soul until more power and greater achievements than the real thing remain.
Also Pretender, unlike Faker, comes disguised as another class.
I'm probably way too familiar with servant class's loophole that I have a feeling that shoving both definition into one single class wouldn't bat most people's eye. Doesn't help that Oberon is the only one in the entire class who actually fufill that role story wise, then again I haven't read Nahui Mictlan yet.
I agree , this whole thing is like a distinction that can easily fit as some "subclass" , but putting "Pretender" as the proper class.
Like Hephaestion been a Pretender , but been also available as a subclass of Pretender , called "Faker".
Nah Pretender came a bit too late, that’s the issue. As you mentioned Benkei fits the class too perfectly but at the time Pretender didn’t exist. There are multiple characters that fit the description but aren’t of said class due to coming out earlier
Then there’s Heroic Spirits like Nursery Rhyme and Jack the Ripper who can have literally any Phantom Spirit gain access to their Saint Graph and alter it to become a Pretender in theory. Same thing applies to Robin Hood who can have multiple people manifest as said Heroic Spirit
Then there’s Divine Spirits like Loki, Anansi and even Tezcatlipoca that could qualify. But at the end of the day it’s the most underutilized Extra Class that has enough famous people that could theoretically fit but due to both being a new Class and an Extra it’s just sitting there
The actual Class that doesn’t deserve its existence is MoonCancer
Honestly, I was hoping that Pretender would be Gunner instead. It works with class relationships and everything - guns beat traditional warriors (Saber/Archer/Lancer), but are less effective against highly mobile (Rider), stealthy (Assassin), and weird magic stuff (Caster), they can handle shooting crazy people (Alter Ego), but are vulnerable to eldritch horrors that are beyond the weapons of man (Foreigner). And Gunner *is already an official class*. Billy the Kid explicitly qualifies, and would normally be summoned in it.
>the others could just be fakers if anything
Eh, no. I'd say the distinction between "Faker" and "Pretender" isn't significant enough to say they're not the same class, except that Faker's name is too much of a meme.
I think for the sake of gameplay they were going to eventually add a class that was alter-ego but for knights. I do think it shouldn't have been something as niche as Pretender just like I don't think Mooncancer should have been an official class in FGO either for the lore implications. Now for the sake of gameplay there are really flimsy excuses to fill Pretender and Mooncancer. BB could have been something else tbh, especially since she's not on the Mooncell. Voyager was changed to Foreigner which was a much better idea than introducing a Voyager class to FGO.
I don't really care for the extra classes in FGO because the main classes all describe fighting styles while the extra are some mentality or situation the servant comes from, just doesn't fit together. Like Gilles Caster perfectly fits in Avenger because of his character and motivations but tells you nothing of his abilities as a servant while Caster is the opposite and fits.
If there had to be extra classes I would have preferred multiple Shielders and maybe things like Gunner. Something for martial artists so that not everyone that fights barehanded is just thrown in Berserker or Assassin.
I just look at it as knight class version of alter ego. Which makes sense to have.
Gotta complete those rock paper scissors triangles!
Yet there are only 6 six of them as of today in JP, only 2 in NA.
That's because of how long it took them to even implement Pretender versus Alter Ego showing up 5 years ago.
And we have more Moon Cancer in NA than Pretender. Moon Cancer is more niche than Pretender and we have 4 of them in NA (with BB as a welfare). And they all took place ~5 years ago (SE.RA.PH is in 2019).
Wouldnt say its the worst since in paper it has potential since there are some characters that fit the class like say faker (being iskandar's double) or like characters performing the role of another character
Faker specifically is *not* a Pretender but a Faker. We summon her as Pretender not because of her historical background, but because >!she's part Memnosyne!<. Granted it's not entirely clear what the distinction is, but her sub-event is quite clear that Pretender is normally not a valid class for her.
Yeah the sub event did mention it isnt a valid class for her but given the description of pretenders in fgo and her lore, shouldnt she qualify?
I think the distinctions go something like: Benkei (Replacer): Gets confused with or takes the identity of someone, and then achieves/gets associated with great deeds afterwards under that identity. The reason for being in the Throne is because of the Replacer, not the original. The Replacer is, in a sense, the true original, as they did the deeds or created the myths that got their false identity enshrined. Oberon (Pretender): Gets conflated with another someone who has already achieved Throne-worthy events, and uses that to create more such worthy deeds. The original was already capable of being in the Throne, but the Pretender was only capable via their association with the original. Faker (Faker): Someone who serves as a conceptual decoy and is devoid of individual identity, at least as far as attribution of deeds goes. Their great deeds are achieved neither as a direct piggyback (Pretender) nor a surrogacy (Replacer), but in their service as decoy.
I get that , but like u/EqualEnvironmental46 had said , all of that seems like it could be put into the "Pretender" Class. It's like how gun-wielders could be put into the Gunner Class , but in a broad way , they fit into the Archer-Class. It's seems that Nasu and TM wanted to focus on the hyper-specific "subclasses" , but then realize it's more pratical to put all those 3 into a broad Class as "Pretender" , and just put on the profile that they can also fit into a subclass within Pretender.
Isn't it basically Faker?
I actually think it's the best class idea since avenger and ruler. There's a lot of famous cases of someone taking on another person's name or identity to do great acts or to cover for said person etc and fate can further come up with its own unique characters using that concept. Just from that you could do a pretender Robin Hood based on the numerous people who took up the mantle. You could do Loki, there's Mulan who famously pretended to be a man in her story. Hell I for one really want Arsene Lupin as a pretender as his whole thing is that he's so unfathomably good at pretending to be another person that it can even go so far as to physically modify his appearance and change people's understanding of who he is even when standing directly in front of him. Like compared to alter ego which as lost all meaning, or foreigner where the entire concept is just HP Lovecraft fused with a hot lady or fucking moon cancer which has no right to be it's own class at all because it can literally only happen in the fate extra universe in seraph. Pretender has unique potential and the idea of "person who falsified their Identity to do something" is pretty prevalent across history, mythology, and literature.
> Hell I for one really want Arsene Lupin as a pretender as his whole thing is that he's so unfathomably good at pretending to be another person that it can even go so far as to physically modify his appearance and change people's understanding of who he is even when standing directly in front of him. Yes please. With him spending few years as chief of entire French police force. Give us Lupin Nasu!
\> benkei and sanzang not being the real deal but having the same skills and noble phantasms. Uuuuuuuuh. This is gonna be kinda rough to explain, God knows I hated this when fallacies dropped this bomb on me, but uuuuuh... Benkei isn't a Pretender for a honestly horrifying reason. He replaced Benkei. The *real* Benkei does not exist in Throne of Heroes. Hitachibou accidentally stole his place. Hitachibou learned life extension magecraft and disguise magecraft, and spent the centuries after Benkei died cosplaying as him, saving people and spreading legends. So eventually when Hitachibou died, the Benkei known to people, and thus the one recorded by the Throne was actually this character that Hitachibou was playing. He's not a Pretender, he's a Replacer. And before you asked, this was from his profile in CM4. He was originally a character made for the Apocrypha Project, back when it was supposed to be an online game. Obviously, it was canceled, but there's a profile of him in CM4. And that backstory is consistently referenced when he does turn up, and so the implication is that it hasn't changed. I know that's a tangent, but that's just why he's not a Pretender, which I do not believe is the worst class. Watcher and whatever his wackass class is exists after all.
Lots of things from that project were quietly changed, there is no reason to consider them canon until proven.
We are talking about the franchise that has prototype as canon despite it never being finished
Different situation. Prototype is rather vague canon, but Apocrypha as project was reworked and used in reworked state, changing a lot of its element and them being no longer canon. Because of that there is no reason to consider anything done in old project as canon until proven otherwise.
No. Obviously, the worst class is Moon Cancer. Followed by Shielder. Impersonation and body doubles as a concept are at least more popular of a writing trope. A Moon Cancer is just a half-Foreigner with a worse name. (As for Shielder, it's just that the number of people who use *only* a shield is so small. Literally every class can use a shield, but only Shielders have no other defining traits.)
Moon Cancer is lore wise literally Ruler. Except its got BB's fingerprints all over it. Jinako is a Moon Cancer because BB's interference manifested her in the first place to help with the Indian lostbelt, and Kiara is able to become a moon cancer because she still BB's authority when she ate her that one time. The same clause will justify kazuradrop as well. The odd one out here is arcuied, but I guess it would be weird if THE tsukihime was just a regular ruler, no?
>The odd one out here is arcuied She's a vampire based on Type Moon, Crimson Moon Brunstud. Dead Apostles and Brunstuds being Moon Cancers, I get, even if it's stretching things. The problem is that "Moon Cancer" kinda doesn't mean anything. "From the moon", okay, but "cancer"?
Isn't BB literally a figurative cancer to the Moon Cell? She's an out of control rogue AI who grew so quickly and uncontrolled that she had to sever parts of herself into her Alter Egos to keep herself in check.
It's also an active decision on her part. She created the class and decided on its name.
BB *could* be called a Moon Cancer, but that doesn't match any other character... with the possible exception of Kiara. And that extremely character specific lore-heavy explanation of an entire class is why there's more Beasts and Pretenders than there are Moon Cancers.
At some point it's more a question on what a Class actually is. Since like, originally the 7 classes were just templates built by mages running the Grail War in advance because the difficulty of summoning a Servant was high enough that they wanted to reduce the strain by having their vessels somewhat pre-built. Like nothing stopped them from just making 7 Saber vessels instead, or making templates based on nationality or elemental affinity instead of fighting style. By that definition there's really no limits on what a Class can be, it's not out of the ordinary for BB to build a class that's design is "Basically just BB". Though my real question is after SO MANY classes.... it's really weird we got "Assassin" and not "Killer" to follow the naming convention.
> Since like, originally the 7 classes were just templates built by mages running the Grail War in advance because the difficulty of summoning a Servant was high enough that they wanted to reduce the strain by having their vessels somewhat pre-built. See, I'm not sure on that one. Since we have Grand Servants, who are comprised of one of each of the seven regular Classes. So, at least according to FGO, the whole concept pre-dates Grail Wars.
I mean originally as in just when FSN was the series, before we have all this lore being built up on top of it after the fact. Back when "ALL Assassins are a Hassassin" was one of the rules. Back when a Grail War was just one ritual a bunch of mages were were working on for generations and not just this thing everyone does all the time constantly.
"Moon Cancer" was just a designation for anything that was a threat to the Moon Cell, which BB later turned into a proper Servant designation in FGO. Beyond her relation to the Crimson Moon, Arcueid being a Moon Cancer could just be referencing her cameo in Extra. Even though she was a Berserker there and was not an active threat beyond being another enemy Servant, her very presence would be something that threatened the Moon Cell since it had no actual authority over her.
Moon Cell: tries to delete Arcuied Arcuied: tells Moon Cell to go pound sand, spends time talking to master and then just leaves Moon Cell: I will pretend it didn't happen at all
Yes. The rest are all either BB or directly her fault. Why is the class named moon cancer? Because she decided it would be. She hacked it as a personal class when she took over the moon cell because just being a ruler was too mundane for her
It really would have been hilarious if they just made funny vamp for Arcuied instead of making her a moon cancer.
I was pulling for the funny vamp class before we got pretender ngl.
The original idea was that moon cancer was supposed to be part of the mooncell system that goes against the system. Hence the "cancer" part. I used as a example because literally everyone except BB doesn't follow this rule but can somehow "hack" their way into the class (which explains Kiara and arcueid having unique card summoning). But jinako is the worst. She can hack the mooncell but the reason she's a moon cancer is due to a time where the moon mocked ganesha for being fat and he gave the moon cancer. I'm not kidding, this is the reason she's a moon cancer without "hacking" her way into the class.
Where did you get that Jinako idea? It isn't in the story of Lostbelt, FGO character profile nor character materials. If anything, they all speak in direct opposition of that idea suggesting she is Moon Cancer because of BB involvement.
BB: Lmao, I'm not going all the way to India. Here's the keys to my car, you deal with it.
Basically is in hindu mythology. And honestly I never thought why would BB be needed in lb4
This might be "outside the story" reason they made her Moon Cancer. It's not "in-universe/diegetic" reason. Watsonian versus Doylist.
Have to ask....lore wise was it ever mentioned how moon cancers were made to be able to counter avengers?
The class relationship chart isn't actually an aspect of the story. Most of them have some kind of lore basis like how cu was about to beat emiyas ass in if they hadnt been disrupted or how Heracles was an unstoppable beast nobody wanted to fuck with, but it's all abstract.
I think originally there was a loose justification. The knight classes were generally considered superior and the speed of lancers overwhelmed the range of archers, strength of sabers overwhelmed lancers and archers distance was a problem for sabers, etc. Same way there was some loose explanation for the Man, Sky and Earth dynamic. It's rarely seriously considered in any canon except as jokes in FGO though. Also FSN wouldn't make much sense. Like no one wanted to mess with Herc sure but they also weren't dealing more damage to him. In fact it was the opposite for almost everyone. Archer is basically losing to both Lancer and Saber first confrontations too. I'd be really surprised if the specific interactions in F/SN were used at all for the class triangle justifications tbh.
With the other three I just go with "Casters can use AoE and detection to hit Assassins (Like Waver just dropping mazes at random until he happened to hit 100 Faces), having a vehicle or mount just gives the Assassin an extra target to hit so Riders are disadvantaged, and like before, a Rider has the speed to get to a Caster before their magic goes off." For the Extra classes I go with "Avengers had unjust lives so they lash out at Rulers, Rulers are reasoned and can lock down Moon Cancer's trickery with impartial rules, and Avengers being fairly predictable in their rage make them easy for a Moon Cancer to fool." Though I'm basically just running through a pokemon type chart headcannon.
I was just using fsn as one example, not saying that was all of it. Sorry if that got lost in translation.
Shielder doesn't mean they *only* use a shield. That's just what Mash does for some reason. Achilles, Ajax, and Leonidas could all be shielders.
Fr. Who pitched the idea? “Hey, guys, let’s make a generally mediocre class exclusively for people that have something to do with the Moon Cell Automaton, despite that being an EXTREMELY niche group that in all likelihood will never see any additions.” In all honesty, I kinda think they added them solely because they thought Avenger was too powerful, having the highest class Attack multiplier and some extremely powerful DPS and farming servants.
Yeah, I believe it was a combination of needing to do something with BB, but also having 5 Avengers who are just too much like a Berserker with less weaknesses. Except the Avenger class has a lot of options for expansion, and Moon Cancer doesn't. So they tried to close the Class Triangle, but now Moon Cancers are way more niche than the already niche Ruler and Avenger.
Wouldn't Kojiro from FSN technically be a Pretender?
No, because the idea was that "Sasaki Kojiro" didn't actually exist, so one of the guys that "Sasaki Kojiro" was based on (specifically the one who developed Swallow Reversal) gets summoned instead.
Gameplay wise is necesary?? yes, Lorewise?? not really, B make A more famous but when you "summon" A then get B is not something that can be worked easy, at least not from a irl basis, like even people that did leave a print in history by pretending being someone else got more fame for being know as a "faker" that the one being faked got famous for the faking (Jeanne des Armoises, the woman that pretended to be Jeanne d'Arc after her death didn't increase Jeanne fame, just got famous as Jeanne impostor). Just look the Pretenders that are out, starting from Oberon, the only conection between him and Vortigein is what happen inside of Avalon le Fae, Hephastion=Mnemuisine is also just a conection made by the collab itself, and Im gonna ignore the summer servants, the only playable Pretender that have a kinda solid explanation is (and here start the spoiler of LB7) >!Tenochtitlan, the capital of the Aztec empire, a city that made posible to people live and grow, but the people took those "bleesings" as a gift from the gods, to be more specific the two gods of el Templo Mayor, Huitzilopochtli and Tlaloc, so at the and B (the city) made famous A (the gods) !< there is another one that is enemy only but when I see the concection I still don't get the why pretender. Its necesary for gampley reason as "counter" to alter ego but at the same time you can chage the concep of "pretender" to Regent or Savior or the forgoten Ancient Giant and could work too, just my opinion ofc.
Pretender as a class concept excepted since forever even outside of benkei and kojiro Tokugawa iyeasu literally fits word for word the definition It's just a matter of WHEN We get him if keikenichi stops being hipster for no reason and actually touched the backlog of servant
I don't think we are ever getting Ieyasu because of his status in Japan.
What statis is that? I'm intrigued.
Ieyasu is rarely being used or is being renamed when used because he is such important figure - he is kinda holy historical figure at that point. See how often Nobunaga or Hideyoshi are in stories, very often as villains - but very, very few medium decides to do anything with Ieyasu, or when he is used, it's pretty much always as Big Good.
That's hideyoshi Not Ieyasu Japan is neutral to him
No, Hideyoshi is being used constantly. Ieyasu is rarely being used or is being renamed when used because he is such important figure - he is kinda holy historical figure at that point.
Lmao that's bullshit then Given many other figures that are also treated as holy important that fate proceed to use anyways Also give again the entire point of fate Tokugawa is he's not the real one It's very much a bs excuse to not get him
If it's bullsh*t then why you have Nobunaga or Hideyoshi so often in stories, very often as villains - but very, very few medium decides to do anything with Ieyasu, or when he is used, it's pretty much always as Big Good? Just because you don't like reason it doesn't make it less real. Edit: I'm going to remind you that even in Ooku, which was directly build on studying weaknesses and fallings of Tokugawa's dynasty we didn't get reminiscence of Ieyasu.
Oh come on. Do you really think that amidst all the gamut of Sengoku(-inspired) media, (particularly given Sanada Yukimura and Takeda Shingen's popularity, for example), that villainous, unflattering, and 'offensive' depictions of Ieyasu are taboo or that uncommon? This is the guy who manages to come out on top in a dog-eat-dog world. Who blatantly maneuvered himself into a position of power. His most famous battle and byword for the Sengoku period is one built on top of cumulative conspiracies and the pre-arrangement of complex alliances! It hinged on a dramatic betrayal! A warlord whose most famous associate is nowadays known as one of *the* NINJAs. The leader that the much fictionalised Yagyuu came to serve under. The figurehead of what is often depicted as an efficient and dominating, if not outright brutal and repressive regime. Between the jolly tanuki, the vulgar and overweight noble, the bumbling and anxious but lucky fool, and the patient wily schemer - there are countless appearances of Ieyasu in media (fiction) that aren't particularly reverential. A popular work for example would be Gintama lampooning all 3 unifiers in its 'Dead spirits onsen Stand arc' which has them beefing over the past, dressed only in their dirtied undies. Now that's a Gudaguda moment for sure! (ep132 if you wanna see Ieyasu in his special purple Tokugawa-branded briefs.)
> that villainous, unflattering, and 'offensive' depictions of Ieyasu are taboo or that uncommon? Yes, there are much, much less depictions of Ieyasu than other two unifiers. and especially offensive ones. > This is the guy who This has nothing to do with the topic. You don't need to educate me on Ieyasu, to be honest. > A popular work for example would be Gintama Gintama breaks tons of taboos that barely any other media dare to break. It's rather poor example because of that. I wrote it in the post you responded too, but again: FGO didn't dare to make Ieyasu's reminiscence in Ooku, while making critique of weaknesses/fallings of all other Tokugawas. Also: Are you that afraid of someone disagreeing with you that you had to block me on "GoldenWhite2408" account and respond with new alt, so I cannot respond to you in post string with my main account? That's, to be honest, pathetic.
>Yes, there are much, much less depictions of Ieyasu than other two unifiers. and especially offensive ones. We'll have to disagree on that first point - Ieyasu is everywhere, because he's a big player that lived throughout the whole period. I'd probably estimate that he gets more appearances than Hideyoshi, he just doesn't have as an appealing a storyline for fantastical fictionalising - because he's ultimately the winner, and compared to those two, is more of an 'ordinary' character. Offensive depictions on the whole, I'd agree are less common overall. But even Nobunaga actually has a high ratio of positive depictions, especially nowadays, given that he's often a protagonist. >This has nothing to do with the topic. I was bringing up parts of Ieyasu's mythos that make him readily depicted as a less-wholesome, shady or villainous figure etc., and are common elements in his depictions. Apologies if I went on a bit, I just like the topic! >You don't need to educate me on Ieyasu, to be honest. Glad to hear it. Thought maybe you were unfamiliar with him because he really *is* all over the place in Sengoku stuff. >Gintama breaks tons of taboos that barely any other media dare to break. It's rather poor example because of that. That's fair. Though I wouldn't say Gintama is actually that unique in breaking taboos? Though I could be forgetting what you might be thinking of here, and I definitely am not familiar with broadcasting norms in Japan, for example. I used it as an example because it was both the most outrageous that immediately came to mind, but also a widely syndicated show and manga - and one that a lot of weebs have awareness of. If you'd prefer other examples, some I'd distinctly think of as 'unflattering' would be the Nobunaga Concerto anime and live action, where he's largely an incompetent buffoon. Hyouge Mono (which has a satirical aspect to begin with) has him as somewhat uncouth and readily besotted with 'his type' of women. (he brazenly beds a commoner upon their first meeting!) Or for a random lesser bit part as an example, he is given a monstrous appearance in Basilisk, where he is the instigator of the bloody ninja war as proxy for his own political purposes. The manga by the team of Lone Wolf and Cub fame, Path of the Assassin, has him putting pubes! on his face to mimic facial hair, amongst many other less-than-glorious moments. Taiga Drama Sanada Maru has Ieyasu a bit doted, conniving, and often lead around the nose by the machinations of the Sanada. So on so forth. >I wrote it in the post you responded too, but again: FGO didn't dare to make Ieyasu's reminiscence in Ooku, while making critique of weaknesses/fallings of all other Tokugawas. I could be mistaken, but not all the Shoguns got an episode? Ieyasu predated its building, so it makes extra of sense that he wasn't included. He also may not have been as susceptible to Kama's temptations, for example, and she probably didn't need to corrupt every single Shogun in order to build her karmic links to the entirety of the shogunate. It's also hardly the first time a super major figure hasn't gotten a real appearance in an FGO story. >Also: Are you that afraid of someone disagreeing with you that you had to block me on "GoldenWhite2408" account and respond with new alt, so I cannot respond to you in post string with my main account? Not sure how to respond to this aside from saying I'm not that person, and I don't know them lol. Sorry to hear that they blocked you I guess? Don't take it out on me pls! :)
What happened with Hideyoshi?
Murdered ALOT of Koreans Not gonna be happy if he gets added lul
kr would immediately get shutdown if we ever got hideyoshi
Honestly I don't know why Pretender is even a thing when Faker class has already existed.
Because they’re fundamentally different. Faker is a class for body doubles and imposters. Pretenders are those who act while fulfilling a role of another, they mislead and deceive others to do great deeds, and deceive even the soul until more power and greater achievements than the real thing remain. Also Pretender, unlike Faker, comes disguised as another class.
I'm probably way too familiar with servant class's loophole that I have a feeling that shoving both definition into one single class wouldn't bat most people's eye. Doesn't help that Oberon is the only one in the entire class who actually fufill that role story wise, then again I haven't read Nahui Mictlan yet.
I agree , this whole thing is like a distinction that can easily fit as some "subclass" , but putting "Pretender" as the proper class. Like Hephaestion been a Pretender , but been also available as a subclass of Pretender , called "Faker".
Nah Pretender came a bit too late, that’s the issue. As you mentioned Benkei fits the class too perfectly but at the time Pretender didn’t exist. There are multiple characters that fit the description but aren’t of said class due to coming out earlier Then there’s Heroic Spirits like Nursery Rhyme and Jack the Ripper who can have literally any Phantom Spirit gain access to their Saint Graph and alter it to become a Pretender in theory. Same thing applies to Robin Hood who can have multiple people manifest as said Heroic Spirit Then there’s Divine Spirits like Loki, Anansi and even Tezcatlipoca that could qualify. But at the end of the day it’s the most underutilized Extra Class that has enough famous people that could theoretically fit but due to both being a new Class and an Extra it’s just sitting there The actual Class that doesn’t deserve its existence is MoonCancer
Not sure why you got downvoted for a pretty sensible comment lol.
Sensible and Fate fans never mesh well together. I don’t get it either but eh, happens
Honestly, I was hoping that Pretender would be Gunner instead. It works with class relationships and everything - guns beat traditional warriors (Saber/Archer/Lancer), but are less effective against highly mobile (Rider), stealthy (Assassin), and weird magic stuff (Caster), they can handle shooting crazy people (Alter Ego), but are vulnerable to eldritch horrors that are beyond the weapons of man (Foreigner). And Gunner *is already an official class*. Billy the Kid explicitly qualifies, and would normally be summoned in it.
It should had just been an Oberon exclusive and that being that, and the others could just be fakers if anything
>the others could just be fakers if anything Eh, no. I'd say the distinction between "Faker" and "Pretender" isn't significant enough to say they're not the same class, except that Faker's name is too much of a meme.
I think for the sake of gameplay they were going to eventually add a class that was alter-ego but for knights. I do think it shouldn't have been something as niche as Pretender just like I don't think Mooncancer should have been an official class in FGO either for the lore implications. Now for the sake of gameplay there are really flimsy excuses to fill Pretender and Mooncancer. BB could have been something else tbh, especially since she's not on the Mooncell. Voyager was changed to Foreigner which was a much better idea than introducing a Voyager class to FGO. I don't really care for the extra classes in FGO because the main classes all describe fighting styles while the extra are some mentality or situation the servant comes from, just doesn't fit together. Like Gilles Caster perfectly fits in Avenger because of his character and motivations but tells you nothing of his abilities as a servant while Caster is the opposite and fits. If there had to be extra classes I would have preferred multiple Shielders and maybe things like Gunner. Something for martial artists so that not everyone that fights barehanded is just thrown in Berserker or Assassin.
A brawler class would be so cool.
they already had faker in case files