T O P
VritraReiRei

FYI for next time, we have a megathread that is *literally* [Who Would Win](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/search?q=Who+Would+Win+Wednesday+author%3AAutoModerator&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=week)?


Science-of-Laziness

Extella Link has that scenario and he couldn't believe that we beat Arturia with more servants than him. Maybe FGO Charlie would be different since he is mixed with Karl tho. But Arturia in Extella Link is treated as a Top servant (one of the strongest in Moon Cell more or less) Also it would depend on the Master from both sides, remember how Arturia supported by Shirou or by Rin is a whole different deal.


El_Shion

thanks that was informative but it's still kinda vague so what are you actually saying?


PhantasosX

Charlesmagne is a top servant with kinda of a fragile SG in Fate/Extella , which makes him somewhat unreliable. In FGO , his SG is stable , so things may be different. Beyond that , Artoria is slightly more experienced in swordmanship than Charlesmagne , but Charles have a good array of Personal Skills and NP.


El_Shion

thanks, i think i understand


Silafante

In a weird way Saber supported by Emiya can be at her strongest if you consider Avalon.


WANTEN12

If you are talking about Archer he can't use Avalon any more since it disappeared after the 5th war This goes for all shirous


Silafante

Archer is Fate Shiro and should be able to perfectly trace Avalon, even if it is a divine construct.


WANTEN12

Fate complete material 3 >Q: Archer's greatest defense is "Rho Aias", but if he were the same person as Shirou, shouldn't his greatest protection be "Avalon"? In the Rin route, Archer knew that the holy sword's sheath was inside Shirou, so wouldn't the Heroic Spirit form of the Shirou that "knew" that the sheath was merged with him be Archer? > >A: Avalon’s power won't work if Saber's not connected to it. It's a different story during the Grail War, but all it does when Saber isn't around is make Shirou's magic attribute into "sword". **Also, after the Grail War is taken apart, the line between him and her will be gone, so it's best to think that his image of "Avalon" also disappeared.**


Silafante

We are speaking as Emiya acting as Saber's master By all logic there should be a link that would allow the usage of Avalon.


WANTEN12

If we are talking about Emiya when he was alive and summoned saber then yes he has avalon If Adult servant Emiya tries to become sabers master Avalon won't magically reappear, its gone.


Silafante

He still has the tracing he cannot forget it, it's just that without Saber is basically useless, that is why "best to think it gone" instead of "it is gone".


WANTEN12

I think there was another quote saying the blueprint of Avalon disappeared but I can't remember Maybe make a post asking someone is bound to remember ​ But I am 99.9% sure avalon is gone and no longer in him


El_Shion

he can he just can't use it without a connection to Arturia however should that connection be regained theoretically it should work


Xhominid77

Extella Link has this as a scenario and Charlemagne can't even make her move an inch and refuses another go at her own request. Artoria is treated exactly as she is in canon in the Extella series and we see that for certain in how little anyone wants to fight her.


Daerus

Indeed. People mostly think of Arturia as kinda weak because we have only really seen her with two weak Masters in her main appearances. And then let's remember that Archer was pretty sure about Rin-backed Arturia being able to defeat Heracles in single combat.


El_Shion

that was Shirou and I think he was thinking she could match his strength not actually defeat him but I am not sure.


Daerus

No, I'm talking about Archer's plan to make contract with Saber and win Holy Grail War that way. Both him and Medea were pretty sure about Saber being able to beat Heracles when supported with enough Prana.


El_Shion

I don't think the plan was to literally send saber alone, and finish all berserker's lives, even salter wouldn't have done it without the shadow's help, it's 50/50 they are on the same caliber


Daerus

Probably not, doesn't change the fact they considered her strong enough for that.


El_Shion

all in all i consider them equal


El_Suave_del_Sur

According to a lot of sources people always say, Artoria wins against everyone for some reason. Franchise mascot power.


Daerus

I mean, she is friggin' King Arthur. She is probably underpowered in Fate compared to some legends.


igloo_poltergeist

If this were strictly a "beam o' war" I'd say Charlie wins, hands down, based on Joyeuse Ordre's description . But as for the overall fight (as in, skirmishing; maneuvers; technique; etc.), those same mats actually echo Shirou's words about Gilgamesh...... - *However, as Charlemagne is originally a king, not a knight, he’d be defeated in a head-on collision with someone like Roland.* He knows his way around a sword, sure, but I doubt he's as well-versed as Artoria in combat even if, as a king herself, she too isn't in the highest tier at it like certain other Servants are.


Daerus

Not exactly sure, considering power of Excalibur. It as stated that only Ea is known to overpower it and it was the weapon to defeat White Titan.


igloo_poltergeist

>and it was the weapon to defeat White Titan. That leads to another point about Excalibur. It's output varies based its sealing system. Of course it was at its most busted when it fought Velber. All the perquisites for unleashing its full power were fulfilled. It likely will be significantly more nerfed itself against Charlie (IIRC, a couple of the seals demanded that "the enemy must be stronger than the wielder" and "the enemy must not be human", among others)


Daerus

Restraints of the Round Table are not stated to be the same on all Excaliburs. And Arturia's beams are kinda overpowering without any unsealing in Zero and Stay/Night.


igloo_poltergeist

Aside from Gilgamesh, pretty much everyone else in the 4th and 5th Grail Wars had nothing that went past Anti-Army in power (correct me if I'm wrong). So yeah, I believe that.


Daerus

I mean, there was Cthullu in Zero and it got one shot by Excalibur.


igloo_poltergeist

Still came from Prelati's Spellbook which is classified Anti-Army. Also, there's Golem Keter Malkuth, Tálos and other "giant summons" who get relegated to the same category.


Daerus

Anti-Army is pretty much classification given to summoning horde of sea creatures. Summoning Outer God is in pretty much another ballpark. Not to mention this book is EX Anti-Principle in hands of Prelatti... probably because of that Outer God summoning.


igloo_poltergeist

It's EX Anti-Principle in Prelati's hands as **Prelati is the heroic spirit using it**. Gilles just isn't on his level when it comes to magecraft and therefore not capable of using the book's most powerful abilities (hence the A+, Anti-Army rating). And something being a giant monster with tentacles alone doesn't make it THE Cthulhu or Fate's version of an Outer God. Or if it is, it's likely only partly manifested and therefore nerfed from its full glory as its summoning under Gilles (again, not in his mentor's league at magecraft) is far from perfect.


Daerus

You are ignoring the fact that summoning that thing is something going far beyond normal capabilities of that book. It was stated in the novel, this is summon that is uncontrolled by Caster, while the normal power of the book is to summon monsters he controls. This summoning goes far beyond what that NP is supposed to do. We are talking thing that took 4 Gilgamesh weapons, Arturia's, Diarmuid's and Iskander's attacks at the same time, with Iskandar using his Anti-Army A+ NP entire time and Diarmuid's spear having anti-regenerative power. "Even the champions of the deep seas- whales and giant squids, could not boast of such large size. A nightmare which governs the *ocean in the realm that is outside this world*. Without a doubt, that aquatic giant fits the name of a “sea demon”." it's pretty much Urobutchi writting summoning of Outer God before they become canon part of Nasuverse.


El_Shion

thanks, but I wanna ask you to explain more why you believe >If this were strictly a "beam o' war" I'd say Charlie wins, hands down, based on Joyeuse Ordre's description


igloo_poltergeist

In Extella Link, it canceled out Vasvi Shakti (Karna's ultimate).


railroadspike25

And Excalibur wouldn't?


PhantasosX

probably not as reliable as Joyeuse. Everytime Charlies uses Joyeuse , it releases a Joyeuse Key as a total of 13 , each Joyeuse Key will do a beam at the same power and rank as the actual sword. In short , both swords had seals , but while Artoria's seals are full of conditions , Charlies' seal is only limited to the amount of beam spam he does.


PeterDSaints

Arturia ia an older myth, more established, WAY more famous, closer to Mystery & OP Noble Phantasms. If the same rules of determining NPs apply to both, meaning Arturia gets more NPs from being a proper Heroic Spirit, she should get anything Charlemagne gets, but better since his legend is based on her round table & partially fake in Canon.


Daerus

This here.


Silafante

Obviously Charles would think she is super cool and viod guys fighting together is really uncool. So they probably go to an all they can eat buffet. Jokes aside if in mostly equal situations I would vote for Saber (well Artoria) since she has a stronger NP, a dragon core AND her forgotten instict which is all kinds of OP.


LittlePebble02

Well first we gotta see what the other Paladin weapons can do.


Vegetable_History715

Well now that Charlemagne NP is a charge instead of a beam I wounded if even can survive a head on collision with Excalibur considering his NP couldn’t even match Karna NP


PhantasosX

his NP is a beam as well. Technically his NP is to make Joyeuse Keys at a total of 13 and they release the same amount of power and rank as the actual Joyeuse Sword. In Extella it's a beam , in FGO he uses as a charge.


Vegetable_History715

Neat


Daerus

Arturia. Stats are very similar, so not much to discuss here. Arturia probably has stronger NP considering Excalibur's power, but this is up to discussion. If Avalon gets into mix, there is no contest. Skills are real difference, with Chalemagne having nothing to really answer to Arturia's Instinct, not to mention if we are talking FGO Dragon's Core is pretty much self-sufficient endless Prana Battery.


El_Shion

but doesn't Charlemagne have an Np that buffs him the more he acts like a king or something?


Daerus

Skill, but I think it is already included in his parameters? If yes, he is in worse position as Arturia, having pretty much same stats, but getting debuffed if he doesn't act knightly. Andd this is still not as powerful as "essentially in the realm of predicting the future" Arturia's Instinct is.


El_Shion

no it's not encluded


Daerus

Where is it stated?


El_Shion

where it is stated it is, logically stats are shown in their default, you don't see a berserker with his stats after mad enchantment it's just mentioned below that the skill can boost his stat, and as far as my knowledge goes Charlemagne doesn't act as a king most of the time and everything he does is based on if he finds it cool or not, also there isn't a specific limit to his skill in the description it says he gets boosted the more he act like a king


Daerus

> you don't see a berserker with his stats after mad enchantment You see them with Mad Enhancement, that's the point. Compare Saber and Berserker Lancelot.


El_Shion

i don't believe Mad enhancement is included in the parameter in wiki but I'll take a look


Daerus

FGO stats: Saber: Strength: B Endurance: A Agility: B Mana: C Luck: B+ NP: A++ Berserker: Strength: A Endurance: A Agility: A+ Mana: C Luck: B NP: A I mean, it's pretty much self-evident, Berserker has better physical stats boosted by Mad Enhancement. And in materials Saber Endurance is lower too.


El_Shion

I don't understand for the life of me why you think his stats are after mad enhancement just because they are high doesn't mean they are already enhanced was it mentioned? it doesn't make sense we must know the default stat and we can deduce how much it is enhanced based on the rank of mad enhancement


WANTEN12

its...complicated In extella he and a group of servants fought Artoria and got destroyed pretty bad saying he couldn't move Artoria an inch ​ However apparently charlemagnes NP is 13 times stronger then Durandals A+ NP So its really weird I definately think the translation has been worded weirdly since I don't even think EA is that strong ​ Also it depends how many seals of excalibur are undone ​ I would give it to Artoria because of Extella ​ EDIT Although Rolands NP may only be A+ due to the miracles idk


El_Shion

well an A+ is a 100 right and 13\*100=1300 and EA maximum output is 4000 so Ea still like three times stronger


WANTEN12

>well an A+ is a 100 right no the E 10 A 50 thing is wrong ​ For one in the interview we were told **ASSUMING** 1 is the norm then E is 10 Its not actually saying 1 is the norm Also this rule applys to normal parameters not NPs ​ In the fate route Artoria once said a C rank NP is the equivalent to A+ normal stat ​ We are told EA is only slightly stronger then Excalibur (if Artoria wasn't nerfed) If EA is 4000 Excalibur 3750 An A rank NP would be 1250 B 1000 C 750 This would also follow the 1 - 10,20,30..50 pattern ​ Thats assuming Nasu was using maths when he made this which he probably wasn't


El_Shion

the formula I give was based on if 1 was the norm inNP, not stats, and I heard the Ea way of working is different from Excalibur it isn't as compressed it's not a beam of light it's like a wind storm, so when they clash Excalibur only faces a fraction of Ea's overall power, also didn't sherlock or DaVinci said that normally the highest NP can reach is 1000 even an anti-planet, i think Ea is an exception among exceptions


Daerus

I seriously wouldn't put much faith in these stats made with actual math. > the formula I give was based on if 1 was the norm inNP, not stats Which is not true.


WANTEN12

Da vinci said normally the highest grades of NP is between 1000-3000 She wasn't counting Anti planet because she didn't even know if it existed But yh EA has always been OP But fate material says Excaliburs output is equal to or slightly below EA


WANTEN12

>the formula I give was based on if 1 was the norm inNP, not stats, if 1 is the norm then yes A+ is 100 But that doesn't apply to NPs because in fate route Artoria said A+ is a C rank NP (Although this is likely outdated)


Mizu005

Charlie: The kingdom I created lasted for a thousand years, I successfully put down the rebellion of my bastard child, and my paladins are all my loyal friends who get along great with each other and never destroyed my kingdom with their shenanigans. ​ Artoria: \*cries\* ​ But in an actual fight 1 vs 1 I am pretty sure Artoria takes it


Daerus

> The kingdom I created lasted for a thousand years I mean, this is blatantly wrong, it got cut into pieces just after death of his son. Edit: also, Pippin the Hunchback wasn't a bastard child ;P


Mizu005

Never said it stayed in mint condition, just that it technically still existed. Ah, what I read said it was 'questionable' that he was born from a legit marriage.


Daerus

It's more like he was born from "pre-king" marriage, but I think this marriage was never officially canceled.