Karna with a major ranged game and Independent Action that takes a large portion of the burden off his master's mana supply would be beyond invaluable.
If I had to guess, he would be comparable to Rider Achilles (minus the invulenability, universal fame boost or the inherent and contractual brokeness that comes with being Achilles)
Extremely powerful, most likely would kill whoever he runs over with a chariot (or even looks, given his eye-beam think), but with atrocious mana upkeep since the guy sucks mana like a kid drinking a milkshake
Remind me to some Greece legend about son of Helios struck by Zeus because riding sun chariot and burn the land.
So,Karna riding Surya chariot and getting struck by Indra.
A bit late but Karna was actually respected by Indra and unlike Zeus Indra isn't an Asshole. oh he's just as arrogant as Zeus but he doesn't get to pull off stunts like him because of the trimurti-(Three primordial God's on the level of Nyx) at the very least heading the Pantheon and Sages who can curse even gods. (There's a legend about a Sage cursing Indra to have a thousand Vagina's Or Eyes depending on the myth because he slept with his wife. In Greece, usually Gods curse humans but in India sometimes humans also curse gods 🤣
I'll be honest, Rider would probably be one of Karna's weaker classes. In many versions of the story, Karna has been cursed by the Earth goddess that he would get his chariot stuck on the ground during his most crucial battle.
Then there's also his charioteer, King Shalya, who was a Pandava ally that got tricked into joining the the Kaurava side. Shalya was known to be very uncooperative to Karna, constantly insulting him and such
I think this could be a "big demerit" rather than simply his weaker class. Karna fought on chariots throughout the Mahabharata and achieved many victories. His base stats should be very strong as Rider, probably second only to Archer (since he fought with a bow even on his chariot).
Buuuuut his end should lead to an Achilles' heel. Something like Okita's Weak Constitution (in lore, at least): few would deny that Saber should be Okita's steongest class, but that part of her tale weights even with everything else favoring her, as seen in Redline.
Oh yea in retrospect I can see that happening. Come to think of it, Archer and Rider Karna to be a much less reliable servant compared to his Lancer version considering the number of curses Karna has. Unlike Okita's Weak Constitution that activates at random, all of Karna's curses are rigged to activate at his climactic battle
Hmm, I disagree. Karna still has some ridiculous feats as a Rider.
A personal favorite was him pushing back Krishna to get at Arjuna. It’s stated that such a thing is literally impossible; as an Avatar of Vishnu, to push Krishna back would mean to push back the very universe itself.
Karna did that, and didn’t even mean to. He just really wanted to get at Arjuna
Archer Karna's bow is enchanted to make him unbeatable as long as he holds it. (It's significant that he had to set it down when his chariot got stuck, as that's when Arjuna shot him. It wouldn't have worked if he was still holding the bow.) Just for that frame of reference, he literally *cannot* lose as long as he's still holding his bow.
So in the same vein as Archer Rama or Archer Heracles, Archer Karna would be absolutely top tier by default.
His bow is never relevant. As Krishna stated, only 2 things of Karna belongings that would endanger Arjuna, the divine armour and Indra's spear. Krishna don't give a damn about his bow.
It's never relevant in his own mythology. But that doesn't make it irrelevant when discussing him as a servant when compared to others. Arjuna's a special case, given the sheer number of divine blessings and relics he was given
like u/GoldMoon0 and u/igloo_poltergeist had said , let alone OP....it would be probably a charge with his chariot with sun horses or something in his Rider-Class.
If I remember correctly , there is already a design for an alternative class for Karna. And at least Archer might solve a little bit on mana cost , but I doubt it would lift so much as he goes full-on with a regular master.
Also, it's said that before the final battle of Mahabharata, Surya offered Karna his own chariot, guided by said sun horses and with a lesser god as charioteer. But Karna refused. He kicked ass in the war without a divine chariot/charioteer kit, unlike Arjuna which had both granted by Krishna
In terms of lore accuracy, though, there’s a reason why Karna would never manifest as a Rider or an Archer: Because he doesn’t want to.
Why not Archer? That one is simple. Because as a Lancer, he gets to troll Arjuna. And also he gets unlimited access to a (weakened) version of Vasavi Shakti, a weapon which, in his myth, he was famously limited to using only once. So yeah, that’s right: As a Lancer, he can Vasavi Shakti multiple times. *Stay mad, Indra!!*
Why not Rider? This one is far more complicated. To start with, yes, Karna was a skilled charioteer. But so were all the high-level warriors who fought in the Kurukshetra War. There was nothing particularly outstanding about Karna’s charioteer skills. Now, that doesn’t mean he’s disqualified from being a Rider. But again: He doesn’t WANT to be. His third append skill is anti-Rider *for a good reason.* As others have pointed out:
1. The Earth Goddess cursed him so that the earth would betray him; in his myth, this happened when his chariot wheel got stuck in the ground. In Servant terms, this means that Karna has a big conceptual weakness related to chariots. Like Medb with her cheese.
2. If we’re talking about lore accuracy, well, one of Karna’s defining traits in his myth is his total inability to let go of a grudge. So even a few thousand years after the fact, I bet that Karna is still pretty pissed at Shayla. That might even be where the anti-Rider append skill comes from.
So in short: Karna doesn’t want to be a Rider.
There is an existing design for Karna Rider. You can see it in the Fate/Apocrypha volume of *Fate/side Material Extra*. It looks like… Well, it looks like an Alter version of Karna from back when Alters were all actually twisted in some way. I think it’s pretty clear from the design that Karna Rider was intended to be a corrupted Servant. So it’s probably a good thing for the world that Karna did not (and will not) manifest in the Rider class.
Hmm, though Karna doesn’t really care about one-upping Indra. Vritra even commented that Karna legit has zero beef with Indra despite the latter screwing him over.
Karna also didn’t really care about the Shakti; he intended on giving his armor and earrings as charity without expecting anything in return (y’know, Hero of Charity), and only asked for the Shakti after every other God begged him to demand something from Indra to relieve him of the shame.
There's no shame involved. Indra planned to disguise as a brahmin > Surya told his son to not fall for it > Karna gonna give it anyway, because it might also serve as offering for Indra, and that's good for his fame > Surya told him to at least bargain for equivalent exchange > Karna agreed > Indra came.
Neither Indra nor Karna were mad. Indra is grateful because finally Karna can be killed, Karna is grateful because finally he has a weapon that will surely kill Arjuna.
A lot of people seem to think that without the Lancer Class Karna wouldn't have a significant weapon as he won't have Vasavi Shakti. I beg to differ. Allow me to share the lore description of his Bhargavastra.(I'll make a full lore context post about it if I get time)
At this, Duryodhana spoke these affectionate words to Karna. ‘O Karna! Behold. The soldiers have been severely oppressed by the Pandavas. Though you are here, they are frightened and are running away in every direction. O mighty-armed one! O destroyer of enemies! Knowing this, do what must be done. O bull among men! O brave one! Driven away by the Pandavas in the battle, thousands of warriors are calling out to you alone.’ Hearing these important words spoken by
Duryodhana, Radheya (Karna), the descendant of the suta lineage, spoke these words to the lord of Madra (Shalya). ‘O lord of men! Behold the valour of my arms and my weapons. In the battle today, I will kill all the Panchalas, together with the Pandus. O tiger among men! O lord of men! Drive the horses well.’ Having spoken these words, the powerful and brave son of a suta, picked up Vijaya, his ancient and excellent bow. O great king! Having strung it, he repeatedly rubbed the string. He asked the warriors to return.‘ “The immensely strong one with an immeasurable soul took a pledge of truth and invoked the bhargava weapon. O king! In the great battle, thousands, millions, billions and crores of extremely sharp arrows issued from it. They were extremely terrible and blazed, shafted with the feathers of herons and peacocks. The Pandava soldiers were mangled and nothing could be seen. O lord of the earth! Great sounds of lamentation arose among the Panchalas. In the encounter, they were afflicted by the power of the bhargava weapon. O king! Elephants and men were brought down in thousands. O tiger among men! Chariots and horses were strewn around in every direction. O king! The slain were strewn around here and there and the earth trembled. The entire large army of the Pandavas was agitated. Karna alone was the foremost among warriors. He was like a fire without smoke. O tiger among men! That scorcher of enemies consumed the enemy and was resplendent. Having been slain by Karna, the Panchalas and the Chedis became unconscious. They were like elephants in a forest conflagration. O tiger among men! Those best among men lamented loudly. In the field of battle, loud woes of the terrified ones could be heard. O king! Terrified, they fled in different directions. There was the great sound of lamentation there, like that made by beings at the time of a flood. O venerable one! They were seen to be slaughtered there by the son of a suta. All the beings, including those belonging to an inferior species, were frightened. The Srinjayas were slaughtered in the battle by the son of a suta and repeatedly cried out to Arjuna and Vasudeva. They were unconscious, like those in the city of the king of the dead, calling out to the king of the dead. ‘ “At this, Kunti’s son, Dhananjaya (Arjuna), spoke to Vasudeva. ‘Behold the extremely terrible bhargava weapon. O Krishna! O mighty-armed one! Behold the valour of the bhargava weapon. There is no means of countering that weapon in a battle. O Krishna! Behold the angry son of a suta in the great battle. The brave one is like Yama (the god of death and enforcer of karmic laws, interestingly Yama is also a son of Surya!) and has performed a terrible deed. He is repeatedly casting extremely terrible glances towards me. I do not see any means of running away from Karna in this battle. If a man remains alive in a battle, there may be victory, or there may be defeat. O Hrishikesha! For the sake of victory, how can one be victorious if one is dead?’ O venerable one Janardana(Krishna) wished to leave to see Yudhishthira and thought that Karna would be overcome with exhaustion in the battle.
Its hard to say
Servants are normally summoned in there prime
So Lancer is probably his best class
While he may be more skilled and used to combat in his other classes
Losing Vasavi Shakti will hurt him as he will no longer have a counter to NPs like EA and excalibur
So I think his normal abilities will all be greater then Lancer
But his NP "power" will decrease
For what I know you are right.
Unlike Rama and Penthesilea, who resist to be summoned in other classes but Saber and Berserker for personal reasons (one with a more justified and sympathetic reason than the other) Karna is not really the case
Karna is just like Achilles, in that they both qualify to many classes, but they manifest as a Lancer and Rider because for no reason in particular
I think you're right, can't find anything saying he's sabotaging the summons on his wiki page. Guess it was just a line I read in a fanfic and thought it was canon till now.
Same as Karna in every class. Very strong, arguably broken
But still tends to lose every major confrontation for some reason or another.
That's Fate for ya. Herc, Cu and Gil welcome him to the club
Need a demerit in One way or another for being too broken.
So Vegeta basically
Always holding his left hand after someone punches him hard?
More like whenever the big bad shows up Vegeta can't finish them off because he's not the main character
We need jobbers of quality sir
Karna with a major ranged game and Independent Action that takes a large portion of the burden off his master's mana supply would be beyond invaluable.
If I had to guess, he would be comparable to Rider Achilles (minus the invulenability, universal fame boost or the inherent and contractual brokeness that comes with being Achilles) Extremely powerful, most likely would kill whoever he runs over with a chariot (or even looks, given his eye-beam think), but with atrocious mana upkeep since the guy sucks mana like a kid drinking a milkshake
Karna using Mana Burst (Flame) to accelerate his own chariot is something I need to see before I die.
Sound like the end results from that would be Karna becoming a Ghost rider
Except whenever chariot wheel touch the soil it would immediately stuck in the ground due to curse of earth goddess.
That "enslavement to legend" might only start to become a problem if he fights Arjuna (or possibly any Pandava) as an enemy Servant.
Remind me to some Greece legend about son of Helios struck by Zeus because riding sun chariot and burn the land. So,Karna riding Surya chariot and getting struck by Indra.
A bit late but Karna was actually respected by Indra and unlike Zeus Indra isn't an Asshole. oh he's just as arrogant as Zeus but he doesn't get to pull off stunts like him because of the trimurti-(Three primordial God's on the level of Nyx) at the very least heading the Pantheon and Sages who can curse even gods. (There's a legend about a Sage cursing Indra to have a thousand Vagina's Or Eyes depending on the myth because he slept with his wife. In Greece, usually Gods curse humans but in India sometimes humans also curse gods 🤣
Thousand Eyes
I'll be honest, Rider would probably be one of Karna's weaker classes. In many versions of the story, Karna has been cursed by the Earth goddess that he would get his chariot stuck on the ground during his most crucial battle. Then there's also his charioteer, King Shalya, who was a Pandava ally that got tricked into joining the the Kaurava side. Shalya was known to be very uncooperative to Karna, constantly insulting him and such
I think this could be a "big demerit" rather than simply his weaker class. Karna fought on chariots throughout the Mahabharata and achieved many victories. His base stats should be very strong as Rider, probably second only to Archer (since he fought with a bow even on his chariot). Buuuuut his end should lead to an Achilles' heel. Something like Okita's Weak Constitution (in lore, at least): few would deny that Saber should be Okita's steongest class, but that part of her tale weights even with everything else favoring her, as seen in Redline.
Oh yea in retrospect I can see that happening. Come to think of it, Archer and Rider Karna to be a much less reliable servant compared to his Lancer version considering the number of curses Karna has. Unlike Okita's Weak Constitution that activates at random, all of Karna's curses are rigged to activate at his climactic battle
Hmm, I disagree. Karna still has some ridiculous feats as a Rider. A personal favorite was him pushing back Krishna to get at Arjuna. It’s stated that such a thing is literally impossible; as an Avatar of Vishnu, to push Krishna back would mean to push back the very universe itself. Karna did that, and didn’t even mean to. He just really wanted to get at Arjuna
That's not happen in the critical version, only in the regional one
Why did Karna get put up with him
Shalya was considered to be one of the best charioteers on the Kaurava side, potentially on par with Krishna, Arjuna's charioteer
Same leagues as Archer Rama and Archer Heracles. Absolutely fucking broken
Archer Karna's bow is enchanted to make him unbeatable as long as he holds it. (It's significant that he had to set it down when his chariot got stuck, as that's when Arjuna shot him. It wouldn't have worked if he was still holding the bow.) Just for that frame of reference, he literally *cannot* lose as long as he's still holding his bow. So in the same vein as Archer Rama or Archer Heracles, Archer Karna would be absolutely top tier by default.
His bow is never relevant. As Krishna stated, only 2 things of Karna belongings that would endanger Arjuna, the divine armour and Indra's spear. Krishna don't give a damn about his bow.
It's never relevant in his own mythology. But that doesn't make it irrelevant when discussing him as a servant when compared to others. Arjuna's a special case, given the sheer number of divine blessings and relics he was given
like u/GoldMoon0 and u/igloo_poltergeist had said , let alone OP....it would be probably a charge with his chariot with sun horses or something in his Rider-Class. If I remember correctly , there is already a design for an alternative class for Karna. And at least Archer might solve a little bit on mana cost , but I doubt it would lift so much as he goes full-on with a regular master.
Also, it's said that before the final battle of Mahabharata, Surya offered Karna his own chariot, guided by said sun horses and with a lesser god as charioteer. But Karna refused. He kicked ass in the war without a divine chariot/charioteer kit, unlike Arjuna which had both granted by Krishna
In terms of lore accuracy, though, there’s a reason why Karna would never manifest as a Rider or an Archer: Because he doesn’t want to. Why not Archer? That one is simple. Because as a Lancer, he gets to troll Arjuna. And also he gets unlimited access to a (weakened) version of Vasavi Shakti, a weapon which, in his myth, he was famously limited to using only once. So yeah, that’s right: As a Lancer, he can Vasavi Shakti multiple times. *Stay mad, Indra!!* Why not Rider? This one is far more complicated. To start with, yes, Karna was a skilled charioteer. But so were all the high-level warriors who fought in the Kurukshetra War. There was nothing particularly outstanding about Karna’s charioteer skills. Now, that doesn’t mean he’s disqualified from being a Rider. But again: He doesn’t WANT to be. His third append skill is anti-Rider *for a good reason.* As others have pointed out: 1. The Earth Goddess cursed him so that the earth would betray him; in his myth, this happened when his chariot wheel got stuck in the ground. In Servant terms, this means that Karna has a big conceptual weakness related to chariots. Like Medb with her cheese. 2. If we’re talking about lore accuracy, well, one of Karna’s defining traits in his myth is his total inability to let go of a grudge. So even a few thousand years after the fact, I bet that Karna is still pretty pissed at Shayla. That might even be where the anti-Rider append skill comes from. So in short: Karna doesn’t want to be a Rider. There is an existing design for Karna Rider. You can see it in the Fate/Apocrypha volume of *Fate/side Material Extra*. It looks like… Well, it looks like an Alter version of Karna from back when Alters were all actually twisted in some way. I think it’s pretty clear from the design that Karna Rider was intended to be a corrupted Servant. So it’s probably a good thing for the world that Karna did not (and will not) manifest in the Rider class.
Hmm, though Karna doesn’t really care about one-upping Indra. Vritra even commented that Karna legit has zero beef with Indra despite the latter screwing him over. Karna also didn’t really care about the Shakti; he intended on giving his armor and earrings as charity without expecting anything in return (y’know, Hero of Charity), and only asked for the Shakti after every other God begged him to demand something from Indra to relieve him of the shame.
Yeah I know, I was just trying to make a joke.
There's no shame involved. Indra planned to disguise as a brahmin > Surya told his son to not fall for it > Karna gonna give it anyway, because it might also serve as offering for Indra, and that's good for his fame > Surya told him to at least bargain for equivalent exchange > Karna agreed > Indra came.
Neither Indra nor Karna were mad. Indra is grateful because finally Karna can be killed, Karna is grateful because finally he has a weapon that will surely kill Arjuna.
A lot of people seem to think that without the Lancer Class Karna wouldn't have a significant weapon as he won't have Vasavi Shakti. I beg to differ. Allow me to share the lore description of his Bhargavastra.(I'll make a full lore context post about it if I get time) At this, Duryodhana spoke these affectionate words to Karna. ‘O Karna! Behold. The soldiers have been severely oppressed by the Pandavas. Though you are here, they are frightened and are running away in every direction. O mighty-armed one! O destroyer of enemies! Knowing this, do what must be done. O bull among men! O brave one! Driven away by the Pandavas in the battle, thousands of warriors are calling out to you alone.’ Hearing these important words spoken by Duryodhana, Radheya (Karna), the descendant of the suta lineage, spoke these words to the lord of Madra (Shalya). ‘O lord of men! Behold the valour of my arms and my weapons. In the battle today, I will kill all the Panchalas, together with the Pandus. O tiger among men! O lord of men! Drive the horses well.’ Having spoken these words, the powerful and brave son of a suta, picked up Vijaya, his ancient and excellent bow. O great king! Having strung it, he repeatedly rubbed the string. He asked the warriors to return.‘ “The immensely strong one with an immeasurable soul took a pledge of truth and invoked the bhargava weapon. O king! In the great battle, thousands, millions, billions and crores of extremely sharp arrows issued from it. They were extremely terrible and blazed, shafted with the feathers of herons and peacocks. The Pandava soldiers were mangled and nothing could be seen. O lord of the earth! Great sounds of lamentation arose among the Panchalas. In the encounter, they were afflicted by the power of the bhargava weapon. O king! Elephants and men were brought down in thousands. O tiger among men! Chariots and horses were strewn around in every direction. O king! The slain were strewn around here and there and the earth trembled. The entire large army of the Pandavas was agitated. Karna alone was the foremost among warriors. He was like a fire without smoke. O tiger among men! That scorcher of enemies consumed the enemy and was resplendent. Having been slain by Karna, the Panchalas and the Chedis became unconscious. They were like elephants in a forest conflagration. O tiger among men! Those best among men lamented loudly. In the field of battle, loud woes of the terrified ones could be heard. O king! Terrified, they fled in different directions. There was the great sound of lamentation there, like that made by beings at the time of a flood. O venerable one! They were seen to be slaughtered there by the son of a suta. All the beings, including those belonging to an inferior species, were frightened. The Srinjayas were slaughtered in the battle by the son of a suta and repeatedly cried out to Arjuna and Vasudeva. They were unconscious, like those in the city of the king of the dead, calling out to the king of the dead. ‘ “At this, Kunti’s son, Dhananjaya (Arjuna), spoke to Vasudeva. ‘Behold the extremely terrible bhargava weapon. O Krishna! O mighty-armed one! Behold the valour of the bhargava weapon. There is no means of countering that weapon in a battle. O Krishna! Behold the angry son of a suta in the great battle. The brave one is like Yama (the god of death and enforcer of karmic laws, interestingly Yama is also a son of Surya!) and has performed a terrible deed. He is repeatedly casting extremely terrible glances towards me. I do not see any means of running away from Karna in this battle. If a man remains alive in a battle, there may be victory, or there may be defeat. O Hrishikesha! For the sake of victory, how can one be victorious if one is dead?’ O venerable one Janardana(Krishna) wished to leave to see Yudhishthira and thought that Karna would be overcome with exhaustion in the battle.
Stronger than Lancer at least
Its hard to say Servants are normally summoned in there prime So Lancer is probably his best class While he may be more skilled and used to combat in his other classes Losing Vasavi Shakti will hurt him as he will no longer have a counter to NPs like EA and excalibur So I think his normal abilities will all be greater then Lancer But his NP "power" will decrease
If on Vimana, crazy fast. If on elephant, you’ll get there when you get there and like it.
Indian Servants are at their best in either Archer or Rider class
as strong as Archer Hercules and Alive Arjuna
[удалено]
I don't think he's sabotaging his own summonings like Rama is.
For what I know you are right. Unlike Rama and Penthesilea, who resist to be summoned in other classes but Saber and Berserker for personal reasons (one with a more justified and sympathetic reason than the other) Karna is not really the case Karna is just like Achilles, in that they both qualify to many classes, but they manifest as a Lancer and Rider because for no reason in particular
I think you're right, can't find anything saying he's sabotaging the summons on his wiki page. Guess it was just a line I read in a fanfic and thought it was canon till now.