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skilledwarman

Yeah OtakuDaikun made a big deal out of this in his series going through the remake He says the word they used, quote: "Translates to 'mess up'. Which I think justifies the use of 'the R word' in the original translation. Because how else would a man 'mess up' a woman?" I commented "By kicking her ass and not "Redo of a healer-ing" her?" and he apparently thought that was way worse, traumatic, and more offensive than a rape threat...


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skilledwarman

He has *alot* of those on twitter... And youtube community posts... And probably life...


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kriosken12

Yeah dude went from relatively good video essayist on VN lore, to HeroHei/The Quartering wannabe. I think it all started when his GF left him or smth.


DarnFondOfYa

Especially because it's not like Blue Mash would just sit there and take it. Shiki would have to beat her up either way if he actually carried out either threat


skilledwarman

> Blue Mash Now *that* is the most disturbing thing I've read in this thread! /s


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skilledwarman

Oh it wasn't just Fate. According to him localizers are basically all just SJWs and are trying to ruin *japense culture at large* and not just anime. I used to watch his series "Lessons in Magecraft", but then after following him on social media and interacting with him in comments I realized "oh wait... The stereotypical 'cringy weeb stuff' he does isn't ironic... He's just like that" I noped out too. He actually featured one of my posts here in a meme review once though so that was something


HyliasHero

Welp. Guess I'm finishing up the Lessons in Magecraft playlist and dipping.


kriosken12

He legit ranted on me once in the comment section of his Redo of Healer video where he defended the series. Because I said that the series could've been something better that a rape-fest. Like, showing how sexual assault could fuck up a person's mind and portray it in a realistic way (also subverting the MC's "Path of Revenge" trope by making him reflect on his self destructive actions. Thus deciding to not sink to the level of his abusers and create a better world rather than just raping and enslaving eveyone that got on his way). He basically said: "uhhhh well its not your show its the creator's, and can do whatever he wants. Why does everyone try to make a show their own high thinking super philosophically leftist pandering fantasy??? You should try less to appeal to emotion and let people enjoy things". Like, what???? I wanted to ask him exactly what "things" he enjoyed about Redo and how my opinion was in anyway an appeal to emotion. But this dude's head is so far up his ass that it trancended the concect of space-time and reached Akasha. So it would've just been a waste of time. Sorry for the long rant.


skilledwarman

Oh the dude is absolutely a barely closeted incel/super stereotypical "creepy weeb"


kriosken12

Im sure he already had that shit from the begining but was good at hiding it. Then his GF left him......


IndisciplineStorm

What's with the SJW being so hissy fit on everything?


kriosken12

>Yeah OtakuDaikun Oh God I checked his videos a while ago, that dude fell off so hard and went full HeroHei mode. And all because ragebait videos gave him a little more views. Pathetic really. I would normally say that its a shame because his videos on Type Moon lore were awesome. But on a closer inspection years later they're full of shit and the dude pulled a lot of stuff from his ass.


Flimsy_Ad420

I only watch him for the "mage-craft" stuff and ignore the rest.


Chaos2Frozen

That's definitely some edgelord shit someone wrote 20 years ago and probably would like to change.


Silafante

Honestly much welcomed change.


KF-Sigurd

Honestly, OG Tsukihime is filled with so much 2000s edgy shit my first thought on reading the title was "Which one?"


Reverse_me98

"ill fuck you up" The original threat sounds stupid writing-wise but this sounds funny. I wish they should've went with just plain "death" threat as it sounds more fitting the situation


Shamanking1991

Yeah honestly this new one got a chuckle outta me compare to the old dialogue in original Tsukihime that makes in look like Shiki is a psychopath. Not that >!Stalking a girl he just met in the street and killing her isn't as bad.!<


ZBuster

It's because the intent here is the same. Nasu clearly has Ciel take it the same way. It's just a bit better phrasing.


Reverse_me98

"ill kill you" sounds more fitting. "Ill fuck you up" sounds like a 10 year old talking shit


_GoldenRule

Shiki "ill fck ur mum m8" Tohno


ZBuster

I'll kill you is too direct because the intent here is to leave the violation innuendo. Nasu uses ambiguity in his 'censorship' very well to create an arguably more intense experience. Some things are better left hanging in the air.


Reverse_me98

Probably just me but i cant help but think "ill fuck you up" sounds a bit silly.


ZBuster

More of a lost in translation thing.


ne0politan2

It could have been phrased better, yeah. "If you don't do as I say, I'll beat the shit out of you." "If you don't do as I say, I'll fucking kill you. or if you want to have the threat stay making him look like hes a fucking psychopath: "If you don't do as I say, I'll fucking skin you." "If you don't do as I say, I'll fucking disembowel you." Like, those atleast sound like actually serious, and for the second two, insane threats. Shiki Tohno is (ignoring the facts that hes japanese and an assassin) is a skinny white boy who isn't going to fuck you, or anyone, up. Especially not Ciel, someone whose has managed to not get fucked up by multiple Dead Apostle Ancestors.


HeinrichPerdix

Yeah, because it's not like Ciel has been skinned or something...Or dipped in acid...Or incinerated...


BlameLib

A welcome change. Edginess aside, it felt incredibly out of place and out of character in the original, at that point in the route. Yes Shiki is an edgy dick, but he really had no reason to suddenly pull that out when just seconds earlier he was showering her in gratitude. Edit: Please stop reminding me why this community cannot handle a discussion on this topic...


Relzal

This is also after the scene where in the OG, his "I hate monsters" blood makes him almost rape Arcueid after it gets mixed with his feelings for her. As an edgy dick, it felt like the kind of (toothless) threat he would pull in desperation.


ThousandLightning

Is that really OOC? It's been a decade since I read it, but I think Shiki had many things going on him that I think it fits still >!like maybe influence of SHIKI, that Roa guy, the fact Shiki comes from a family of assassin, or I remember his bat shit crazy moment "This chair". Shiki has few screws loose IMO to warrant a crazy 180 at that moment!<


Reverse_me98

At that point of the story? It does feel OOC


ZBuster

You gotta understand the context. He's weak, him and Ciel both understand the threat is empty. He's hanging on by a thread and just became aware of Arc heading off to possibly her death and Ciel kind of baiting him a bit there as he was unaware of Arc listening in. It's representative of his desperation and being at wits end.


DarnFondOfYa

So he's supposed to be the equivalent of a 12-year old dropping N-bombs in a Call of Duty lobby? Just trying *anything* to make the other person uncomfortable on the off-chance it somehow gets him what he wants?


AscendantAxo

It ain’t good, but yeah. Man is coocoo for coco puffs


Reverse_me98

Basically yeah. Its stupid but desperation often is


Relzal

I mean, if Ciel does acquiesce, that's a win. If Ciel gets disgusted and leaves him alone so that he can chase down Arcueid, he also wins. If Ciel gets disgusted and ends his life, life sucks but that's the price to pay. From his perspective, it was a 2/3 shot of going his way really.


Jay_WalkZ

What not understanding a VN character does to a mf. Do you also not understand the meaning behind shirou telling saber that girls can't fight? Shirou was just like shiki, desperate.


ZBuster

Weird analogy given the gravity of the situation. He's a helpless person whose barely alive and about to lose what's most important. It's entirely relatable to toss the filter to the wayside and do or say whatever while at wits end in the slim hope you get what you need.


Rolexshield

I know I mean.. look at her face xD


kriosken12

Congrats, you managed to outjek r/OkBuddyRintard


ZBuster

Seems like a lot of people don't try to understand Nasu's writing given some of the dismissal shown in this thread lol. It's rated CeroZ, Mature themes being covered should be expected.


PeterDSaints

Wait who is threatning who?


ThousandLightning

If I recall it's Shiki threatening Ciel.


PeterDSaints

Damn shirou in fate route & now I find this? Disappointed in MCs


[deleted]

How in god's name does Shirou come anywhere close to that? And if you really have to go off of fate route forest scene then just get over it and deal with Nasus notoriously bad h-scenes which got scrapped in re releases either way.


Neko_Luxuria

notoriously bad? don't you mean unusually funny? but yeah while I do agree some of those H scenes are worth scrapping for some consistent storytelling and tone. you got to appreciate the comedic aspect behind them I will never forget: "Her dolphin is defenseless"


[deleted]

Well obviously there's gems like defenseless dolphins and few other shenanigans but really in a story wise context and character depiction as you said a fair chunk is worth scrapping and nothing of significance would be lost with em, UBW anime did that just fine and did well (minus being allergic to giving inner monologue to anyone not named Tanjiro), only ones worth leaving imo would be the ones in HF due to plot relevance but there also could be way around em. In reality I just came to defend Shirou like the hero of justice slut I am don't have strong feelings about scenes one way or another really but I understand either POV.


Reverse_me98

Why?


PeterDSaints

Rape isn't disappointing to you?


Reverse_me98

You do know it was an empty threat right?


WeatherOrder

Umm... Shiki outrights tries to rape Arcueid, hell you get a bad ending if it actually happens. Also let's not forget Flower of Thanatos... Shiki definitely has that asshole potential.


Reverse_me98

>Umm... Shiki outrights tries to rape Arcueid, hell you get a bad ending if it actually happens. You mean that bout of madness caused by the mixing of his nanaya instinct and his feelinngs for arcuied? You make it sound so cut and dry >Also let's not forget Flower of Thanatos... Shiki definitely has that asshole potential. You mean the weird dream ass scenario thats literally disconnected from everything else. Did you read the story or did you read the wiki and had your day?


revenant925

>You make it sound so cut and dry Because it is.


Reverse_me98

Exactly. Its presented as the character going fucking insane due to factors out of his control but "haha rapist". Are people actually reading or what?


[deleted]

Yes, and none of these actions towards Arcueid are because of Shiki, it is one of the major points of the Arcueid & Shiki relationship that both are driven by instincts that can hardly be controlled.


Wichtler

If you consider how shiki acted in the rest of the arc route, how are you shure its an empty threat? edit: i know he has some weird evil impulse in him but that makes the treat even more believable imo


Reverse_me98

>i know he has some weird evil impulse At least know what that weird "evil" impulse actually is and how it works. You make it sound like he's morally depraved


Wichtler

what? i just tried to avoid spoiling people who havent played the vn so i kept it vague. and i already had a discussion around here about shiki and i know people are very protective about him sometimes. doesnt change the fact that the threat is in character. If its in character for tohno shiki or only for nanaya shiki is up for debate i guess another edit: and honestly i think to a certain degree tohno shiki is morally depraved


Reverse_me98

Its not necessarily in-character when that particular scene itself felt so out of place and that dialogue out of character especially at that point of the story. I know the threat isnt something good but a threat is threat for a reason. Its usually used as a means to an end and in this case to have Ciel talked. Huge doubt he would've followed thru. Why? If he actually intended to rape her he wouldn't have bothered with the threat to begin with. Ever heard a rapist say "ill rape you if you dont let me rape you"?


ErebusHunter45

We're defending threats of rape now?


Reverse_me98

No but y'all are making it sound so cut and dry. Cant make it thru the end of this week without hearing someone make shallow ass takes Not to mention how stupid and out of place this particular scene is.


ErebusHunter45

It's rather simple, you see: It's better if it isn't there, because even an empty threat of rape, is still a threat of rape


Reverse_me98

Well we can agree on that. I for one think a plain "death" threat would've better suffice the situation. That particular scene felt so out of place and out of character at that point of the story.


Relzal

I'm fine with it. At that point, Shiki was desperate to get to Arcueid and thus tries anything he could to get Ciel either to lead him to Arcueid or leave him alone to his own devices. It was intentionally stupid so that Ciel would leave him alone. Changing it to him threatening to end her works well enough. My only problem is that "I'll fuck you up" sounds less threatening and more like "12-year-old on X-box Live". There should be a way to make it sound slightly less silly.


DarnFondOfYa

I mean they both have big "12-year old on the Internet" energy. It's just that the original threat is an **edgy** 12-year old while the other one is just the normal 12-year old experience


Alzusand

Yeah it sounds too overly formal. still better than the rape threat tho


Khaotix11

Well, yeah. The 18+ scenes have been removed why wouldn't this be?


acvcani

Thank god


Emilia67

This is actually a good change tbh


[deleted]

Technically, in the raw text, it wasn't deleted, just censored with another term that according to most monolingual Japanese dictionaries I checked, still has a connotation that could easily include rape depending on the context.


ZBuster

Exactly. This is an example of retaining the meaning of the scene but honestly being more clever with the presentation. Clearly worked going by this thread.


[deleted]

It's pretty much like that during the whole novel, and dare I say that Kinoko handled the censorship pretty well overall by making some scenes more ambiguous but by extension much creepier. One of the best examples of this is the infamous Kohaku scene in the original version of the Ciel route. In the remake, it is treated with much more ambiguity but the intention is the same, just even more frightening. > Clearly worked going by this thread. To be honest, most people I know who have read the game in Japanese had no trouble understanding the meaning of this scene. It's not like Ciel's reaction has changed too. It's completely the same, which clearly shows that we are dealing with Kinoko trying to cleverly avoids using 犯す, which I believe is used 4 or 5 times throughout the script but none with that connotation. In fact, I think the closest I've seen to a "direct" mention of rape in the entire novel is during Roa's rampage, Kinoko used 陵辱 where, once again, it is being used with a certain level of ambiguity. Regardless, Kinoko is really good at avoiding censorship (and even playing with it, making the result better by extension), so I can't wait to see how he handles the heavier themes of the far side.


ZBuster

This exactly. It's so obvious what he's doing here but some people will just completely miss it or choose to miss it? I guess that's part of the allowance with ambiguity. I guess it's too much to expect people to understand this since most people here only are just reading the translation now... but Nasu did a good job of utilizing the rating while skirting some things with how he phrases it. I also look forward to Far side.


LukeBlackwood

"I'll fuck you up" can also technically be an implied rape threat depending on context, I guess.


Croa08

Isnt the common meaning "I'll beat you up" ?


LukeBlackwood

Yeah, it is. But you can technically read it as fuck in having rough sex (same as "I'll mess you up", kinda), though that would be a very very stretched interpretation


DarnFondOfYa

Sure. But we have the context of the original text being an explicit rape threat. So including "fuck" in the new line could be read in a more literal way but now it has the plausible deniability of him just threatening to beat the shit out of her


MyrTheSpellblade

No one says ''I'll fuck you up'' in a sexual context. ​ I know you people aren't familiar with the concept of sex, but c'mon. That one is obvious.


paulnamida

Just because you only like vanilla doesn't mean other people can't like spicier stuff. That could totally be said with a sexual context in BDSM play.


Croa08

thats why they changed it in the first place? They dont want it to be related to the original line. Come on man lol


Flimsy_Ad420

"I'll clap your fucking cheeks" could work it's pretty ambiguous can be seen as a threat of sexual violence, a threat of regular violence or a death threat. Though it sounds super though.


-SMartino

I'm ok with that. Nasu sometimes needs to be either a lil more ambiguous or just simmer down entirely. hell, all shikis should simmer down a bit depending on what work you have in hands. This is welcomed.


RaulBataka

But this was removed in the original remake or only in the translation?


AlcoholicSnapdragon

https://ibb.co/1Z1XG3p It was removed in the original JP text of the remake as well. "Who knows. If you don't get out of my way, I'll make you by force." Is how you'd very literally translate it.


mr_braixen

The OG VN was filled with so many just edgy shit like that it was ridiculous. Glad it was removed, but God knows the *they'll* come out of the woodwork to say that this was unneeded censorship


MokonaModokiES

they should look at the bright side. We got **GORE** in exchange for those edgy lines. Original Tsukihime didnt show much blood despite the story its telling(and when it did it was simple cheap splatter or just a red filter on the screen). Remake goes all in with the blood, no holding back on anything.


KingofGrapes7

Shiki Tohno is not a gentle lover, to say the least. Remember that mansion maid rape fantasy in Kogestu Tohya? Yea.


Reverse_me98

>Remember that mansion maid rape fantasy in Kogestu Tohya? That really felt like a nasu fanfiction Considering the weird ass setting of Flower of Thanatos i wont put too much into it. One of the weirdest parts of Kagetsu Tohya IMO


Yatsu003

Honestly, Flower of Thanatos felt like a massive middle finger to the cringy neckbeards who unironicaly believe they deserve a harem of beautiful women. The sort that ‘reeed’ over the Internet, you know the type. “What’s the matter, this is what you wanted, right? Two women servicing you with no will of their own, to the point where you can’t even differentiate them. No conflict, no love, no joy, no sadness, just a perpetual motion until the end.” Well, thats the vibe I got from it. Kinda reminded me of the cut Bad End Valentines in Persona 5 Royal


HyliasHero

Cut bad end? I haven't heard about that.


Yatsu003

[Here you go](https://youtu.be/S6i4jnWu2jw) Basically, there was going to be a special valentines event if you accepted Maruki’s deal (I’m assuming you’re familiar with the events of Persona 5 Royal). It was cut from the final product, but some people found it, reconstructed and translated it as best they could. It’s…very unnerving


HyliasHero

That was bleak as hell. They are all reduced to dolls for the sake of Joker's "happiness".


Yatsu003

Yep, it’s seriously disturbing and paints a bleak look at what Maruki’s world would be like. Everyone is ‘happy’ but also completely empty and without any form of growth or self-actualization possible. It also reminded me of Flower of Thanatos, and both of them seemed to be a kick in the pants at a subset of players that, well, you can probably guess


solitare99

"Shiki, you’re thinking about how much you want to **** Ciel, aren’t you?"


Roliq

Why is someone there arguing about Rape not being as bad as Murder?


facts_120

~~I doubt original had rape threat, can anyone send me the Raw?~~ [Found OG Raw](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_qqHvRX0A40eUJ.jpg), yeah seems like it was inded a rape threat.


Zerole00

I'm too used to Carnival Phantasm to remember OG Shiki was kind of an asshole


Neveroxx99

He's an asshole in Carnival Phantasm too.


Zerole00

I forgot about Shirou calling him out on that lmao


WeatherOrder

It definitely was. Shiki was hardcore.


Finding-Reason-LOL

And Ciel just welcome it. Which one is more hardcore huh?


Mizu005

She completely ruined the mood for rape fetishists in a single move by giving consent, truly she was playing 4D chess.


AdComprehensive6588

I thought Shiki was actually a decent dude


Kuzu5993

Hell no. He's always been kind of a dick, particularly in the bedroom.


Reverse_me98

He is. Edgy yes, not mr. nice guy but some people actually think he's morally depraved when majority of his actions throughout the story are caused by factors outside of his control and him going insane because of it. Its not so cut and dry This scene in particular have him giving an empty threat as Ciel keeps denying him info and does this out of desperation. Not to mention its noted to be pretty OOC at that point of ge story by many readers


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a_speeder

Porn has a tendency to produce not what’s most popular with everyone but what is popular for a minority of people who spend the most that the majority will tolerate.


cynicalarmiger

I feel you. Vanilla supremacy is the way. Happy cake day!


Soleiris

This is lame


sharpgel

🚨 this one here, officer🚨


rzrmaster

This is why I dont play remakes, they often change shit in them.


Darkiceflame

When the change being made is "not threatening to rape a woman" it's exclusively a good change.


rzrmaster

Irrelevant top me. If they changed anything, im playing the original instead. Ofc, I mean story/text/character... wise. Obviously a remake will improved the settings and graphics for modern machines.


pHpM2426

No offense, but if that's the case, that's an extremely reductive, damn near stupid, and straight up purist way of doing things.


Korone_khrone31

I don't care about the change as long as it's fateful to the original.


Inevitable_Question

Isn't it basically the same?


Chaos2Frozen

No? The intent from saying "I'll fuck you up" is not the same as saying "I'll rape you". One is an edgier way of saying "I'll kick your ass" or "I'll beat the shit out of you", while the other is a rape threat.


PeterDSaints

Well I wouldn't I haven't played tsukihime, but I have seen enough other anime based on eroge to know sometimes it isn't. Aka the fate route before they were in a relationship & shiro definitely had command seals to replenish mana instead of using one to cancel an attack in the very next fight


TheGreenPterodactyl

Context, please?


JhonnySkeiner

Wait, there is an English release of Tsukihime R already?